Re: LF: RE: Class E etc

[M0FMT <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk>]

Hi Again Graham

 

The FL2000b has 2 x 572B triodes in parallel grounded grid. These are directly heated tubes and have carbon anodes. 1/ they give a good light display and 2/ you can tune up by observing the "blush" on the anodes (if you wanted to). I have had it years hardly use it got after the original owner had had it retubed and serviced. Makes a bit of difference on 80m when the going gets difficult.

 

As with your hipower thyratron all you need is a good multi Kw PSU.  Oh and some x-ray protection?

 

I spent a bit of time in the MoD back in the 90s and one radar I used to visit was on Scotland's east coast it was very old but nothing to replace it. The whole transmitter cabin rotated with the antenna. God knows what the power O/P was. The power pickup was via a pair of circular channels of mercury and the bottles in the cabin where a sight to see probably kicked out as much x-ray as they did microwave.

We were running a mobile radar fairly modern still thermionic had a massive single Klystron 1MW pulse! On site was a new solid state phased array unit there to replace the old rotary cabin Joby but wasn't having a happy time. A major complaint was the ops couldn't turn the rx gain up to see the sparkles to be confident it was working..... hee! The new systems have a lot of software processing before the display reaches the scopie. Hasen to add I am not a radar expert in any way. When you work for that outfit you get thrown into jobs you know nothing about. I was mainly on comms infrastructure and didn't know much about that either.... ;-0.

 

Oh and yes used 4cx250s and 4cx150 in 2m and 70cms PAs the one for 70 took off and recked my transverter. They were designs out of the old RSGB VHF handbook when I were a Jaite!

 

I am not going back to Hi power Tube rigs again its not necessary when hi power FETs are so cheap.

 

Any way this all a bit off topic. Its bit like the last day at school before the summer break on this reflector doing what you like before it gets turned off.... hee! And not much to do with Class d/e or any other letter of the alphabet.. What I have to sort out is my RX for MF/LF it is not good, need some ideas?

 

 73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX

From: Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Thursday, 14 June 2012, 1:55
Subject: Re: LF: RE: Class E etc

Ok Pete .. blow up ? !!......Depends on the  tubes  : ))  http://home.comcast.net/~n6jv/data/6C21.pdf

 

This  is what  you need  (with a  bit of re-work)  ..... 

http://www.radartutorial.eu/08.transmitters/tx06.en.html

VK or Bust  !!

 

FL2000   , with  2  x 813  ?  nice  amp,   my  skanti  trp5000   has    2 x    4cx250-b   in the  PA  runs well  1.8/30 Mhz  ,   I  use   2   combined  skanti 250 watt solid state 50v   linear amps  with the  ma1723 for  LF>Hf  , wide  band  ,  just change the  ATU  hi .....   could  do  with a  simple  class e/d for  500  as  the  ab1  amps  are a little  power hungry ..

 

G..

 

From: M0FMT

Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 11:59 PM

To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org

Subject: Re: LF: RE: Class E etc

Hi Stefan and Graham

 

Thanks for the comments. None of my MF/LF tx.s run more that 160watts although by seriesing a couple of PSUs one with a floating ground I can run about 280Watts o/p from the TX. I don't like seriesing the PSUs so only do it during experimenting not on the air. Need to build a new high voltage PSU 100V at a good current rating. The rigs are FET PA IRF840 etc mostly xtal controlled or xtal mixer type master oscillator (but do have DDS), into a FET driver chip. And set them as described earlier.

 

I have played with High power Audio amps on 136kc/s transforming the Low impedance to 50 ohms+/- using Ferrite cored transformer to drive the antenna tuner. Front end currently popped!! Using it for QRSS overnight.Will get it back on soon.

 

My interest in Valve or Tube TX is a side issue and am not advocating them for serious modern MF/LF work. However there is no reason why not.

 

I have made a couple of TUBE QRP rigs one for 160/80 about 4/5 watts out Choke modulated AM and CW and FSK. Worked most of UK on AM on 3.615megs. The second is a copy for 500kc/s was originally VFO controlled but now is again xtal mixer vxo. They use 6CL6 video tubes in the PA. The 500kc/s tube tx only runs a watt o/p yet to figure out why, it should be about 5watts. How ever on my new found Opera4 have been reported in PA0 land (on the limit).

I have built and still got one or two 807 PAed rigs for 80m knocking about. Plus a Louis Varney design made by an unknown amateur in the 1950s and a Codar T5 and a push pull 807 rig on the stocks.... but probably won't get finished. Plus an FL2000B. This to show my thermionic credentials.... hee!

 

For shear interest I would like to try and make a high efficiency TUBE PA but probably won't get around to it. But that 1960s RCA AM BC TX design looks interesting but probably very dodgy to set up, stability and all. Graham your arc tubes is all very well but what I have read is that they have a tendency to blow up...... and so do FETs ok so no change there then.

 

My current limitation to power Stefan is lack of a single stable PSU with a couple of KW output. The antenna is now reduce to 35ft up and 128ft top.

 

I don't have a good RX for MF/LF what I have are deaf by others standards and this is my main area of interest at the moment. I have used a TS50 and a TS690s full filters plus a couple of direct conversion HB RX with active filers and notch.

Front ends have gone from dual gate mosfet to straight into the mixer but S/N is still poor evidenced by WSPR and Opera reports I give to other station who are being received much better elsewhere. If any one can help me with that then it would make life here on MF/LF a lot better.

 

Keep the bands open and may get to work you Stefan now you have 472/9....... why the delay in the UK????

 

73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX

From: Stefan Schäfer <Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Wednesday, 13 June 2012, 22:05
Subject: Re: LF: RE: Class E etc

Hi Pete, LF,

On 137 kHz or 500 kHz you can quite easy achieve 95% efficiency with a class E PA. BTW a ferrite transformer is not needed! So if your antenna provides stable resonance and impdedance and if you like to play arround a bit to obtain the best efficiency (not the highes output power), a well designed class E PA is definitifely a good choice! 1 kW RF (CW, key down!) is possible with a single IRFP MOSFET.
I hardly expect that you will get such an efficiency with a tube amp but i can understand the fascination of a glowing tube in a dark shack, although i'm not from the tube generation ;-) The first power amplifier i heard of was a 2N3055 in the late 80s as i was 12 year old or so :-)

73, Stefan/DK7FC


Am 13.06.2012 16:51, schrieb M0FMT:

Well shoot me down with my britches on fire!

 

Mal

I have just found an article on an enhanced Class C in Tube amplifiers By RCA.

I have heard of higher efficiency Valve amps but never gave them any time because I thought they used special valves to achieve the fast response. But apparently not, it relies on a tuned circuit in the anode and cathode. The cathode LC being set at the third harmonic of the anode one. By combining the drive wave with the third hamonic you get a very fast rising pulse type wave at the drive frequency in the PA tuned circuit as with a class D/E solid state amp. URL is ........ http://nrcdxas.org/articles/bta5t/

 

I think the point about this is that it works OK for fixed frequency TX's like broadcast transmitters and the like. And probably will work OK for us on LF with such narrow allocations where we may get away with one set up.

 

Now to see if it is scalable to lower power video tubes.

 

73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX

From: mal hamilton <g3kevmal@talktalk.net>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Tuesday, 12 June 2012, 19:48
Subject: Re: LF: RE: Class E etc

Pete es Co

The class C tube amplifer is the nearest you can get to class D or E and well designed would produce 70% efficiency.

The class D or E is not really an amplifier in the convential sense it is merely an RF switch at the frequency of interest and the voltage generated is increased by a step up transformer with probably 80% to 90% efficiency if you are lucky.

Like some have said a tube amp is more robust and tolerant of mismatch to antenna without smoke. Fets are good but can go bang if one is not careful about matching to load.

I have some Dentron amps for the HF bands and they have been going for years.

Fets are probably more manageable, compact  and safer regarding voltages, beware of tubes with voltages of a few K/volts at high current, like an electric chair!!

73 de mal/g3kev

 

----- Original Message -----

From: M0FMT

To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org

Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 11:15 AM

Subject: Re: LF: RE: Class E etc

Hi Ken

 

I believe you can operate some thermionic devices in higher classes than C but they generally lack the frequency response of a modern FET. I won't go into figures but just think about it. The high efficiency output stage has to operate like a switch it is not actually an amplifier. The faster it changes state from fully on with ultra low resistance to fully off (which means a device that will operate well into the VHF) the higher the efficiency. If you have a device that is barely rated to say a couple of megs its not going to be much good (in terms of what we are talking about) at 500kc/s. Remember you are trying to get the magnetic field in the inductor to rise and collapse at a very fast rate in-order to generate a high electromagnetic field at the drive frequency. We are not talking sine waves here as a scope on the drain will show. Although a scope on the output side of the drain inductor will show quite a clean looking sine wave. Try it.

 

That chart at the end of that PDF file is very clever and is the guide I use to bring a PA into optimum performance.

 

What I was trying to say is that the math is all very well but if you are trying to make a practical and efficient CW TX for LF then there is enough empirical data from following the guide lines lines shown on the sites I have posted that will get you a good TX. If you want a doctorate in theoretical physics to bamboozle you colleagues then that will detract from the time it takes to build a very interesting high power, efficient TX design well within anybodies capabilities. The GW3UEP design being IMHO a very good (Scalable) example with no RadCom style unobtainium in the components listing.

 

73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX

From: Ken <ken.h.wright@btinternet.com>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Monday, 11 June 2012, 22:09
Subject: LF: RE: Class E etc

Hi Pete.

About 40 years ago my integration was quite good, liked doing 2^nd order differential equations, partial integration and integration by parts, the one thing I had big problems with was 3 dimensional integration of a point in free space .   Looking at some of the sites my Class C MOSFET PA is probably more like Class E by default. The reason I like valves is because they are very forgiving devices unlike semiconductors, also the keep the shack and the cat warm.

 

73s

 

Ken

 

M0KHW

 

From: owner- rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto: owner- rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ] On Behalf Of M0FMT
Sent: 11 June 2012 19:16
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: Class E etc

 

 

Hi Ken

 

Ha ha Stefan, how good is your Integration Ken?

 

Here are a couple of sites that should answer your questions. You need a good dummy load and a good oscilloscope. Setting the conditions for the amplifier is to do with  A/ the correct driver preferably using a FET drive chip (like TC4422 non and TC4421 inverting) that will turn the FET fully on and fully off on each cycle. Very fast rise time with accurate on off timing (mark / space). Ensuring the max permitted gate voltage for the FET is not exceeded otherwise they pop, look out for transients, a diode clamp helps.  B/ Setting the shunt capacitance and inductance in the drain circuit can be done empirically See article below. Then follow it with a low pass filter, although the output wave will be surprisingly clean. Calculating the values is difficult as you don't necessarily know all the starting parameters and in any case the result is going to wide of the mark. The site below will gives some starting values. Best to use 'Scope measurements to set the output conditions. You are looking for fast, very fast On / Off rise times. Gate drive and understanding the drain circuit is the key.

These amplifiers are capable of incredibly good efficiency well above a dodgy class C amp. This means the heat dissipation from the FET is very low at high power giving cool heat-sinks!

 

The GW3UEP (do a web search) single ended design is capable good efficiency and high power depending upon the FET used and Drain supply voltage. I have modified one to run reliably at 140watts and is capable of almost twice that into a dummy load with a heat sink that is fairly cool. Adjusting L and C empirically using the 'scope to get the correct drain wave shape for max efficiency is the way to go. The article below shows you what you are looking for. I set my TX up into a 50 Ohm dummy load adjusting L and C to get the correct drain wave shape on the 'scope then measuring the peak voltage across the Dummy load. I then transfer my connector from the Dummy load to the input of the tuned transformer in the antenna up-lead. I adjust the coupling link to give the same peak voltage across the tuner link turns. You are not looking for maximum peak just the sames as across the dummy load indicating a 50ohm match. This is done by either adding or reducing the number of turns (about two turns) along with bringing the the transformer to resonance by measuring the peak up-lead current, here you are looking for the maximum peak.  

 

Oh yes and WIMA high voltage high value capacitors from Maplin work well.

 

Read the articles and search info on class E amplifiers. 

 

 

For some bed time reading but ignor the math look at the Tuning Procedure and the pictures at the end which tell it all really..... http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~culler/AIIT/papers/radio/Sokal%20AACD5-poweramps.pdf

 

For design ideas

http://www.classeradio.com/

 

For a good practical circuit for a single ended amp that  is a scalable surefire design, no need to reinvent the wheel.

http://www.gw3uep.ukfsn.org/

 

For antennas and antenna feed methods a "look no where else site"

http://www.strobbe.eu/on7yd/136ant/

 

73 es GL Pete M0FMT IO91UX