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Re: LF: Re: Re: HB9ASB...

To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: LF: Re: Re: HB9ASB...
From: "mal hamilton" <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 18:42:56 +0100
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Andy
Highly unlikely that the link-tx is in the same box, even so the other element as u say would be the the mast/mounting and that could be say 20 plus feet,  just as bad as the feeder senario!!
g3kev
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: Re: HB9ASB...

Not if the link-Tx is built into the same housing as the head amplifier and a battery is used for power.   Then the antenan can only work against its own mast / mounting-point. THAT is the counterpoise;  or as I prefer to think about it, the other element of the dipole antenna.  (See my previous posting)
 
RF linking is a near-perfect solution as far as local QRM is concerned.   Linearity, a different matter perhaps.
 
Andy


 
On 10 August 2011 18:12, mal hamilton <[email protected]> wrote:
Graham
Of course there is a FEEDER to the RX at the remote site before it is relayed via a radio link.
As explained the feeder is the main element for signal es noise pickup. If there was no feeder to act as the other main element there would be no signal pick up at all because the 10 mm probe element  would pick nothing up.
G3KEV
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Graham
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: Re: HB9ASB...

Im sure  one  station   uses a   battery  and  radio  link  from the   probe  Ae   so  no  feeder  ?
 
G.

Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 4:29 PM
Subject: LF: Re: Re: HB9ASB...

This miniwhip/probe seems to be a very complicated antenna and difficult to explain its properties.
I suggest someone takes this antenna out into the middle of a field away from any noise source and work out how it actualljy performs.
because using it in a noisy environment at various heights in different locations introduces too many variables for accurate evaluation.
A random simple piece of wire with a suitable preamp and a counterpoise would probably work better.
Decca used a metal barrell probe and preamp at their RX stations maybe someone knows how they performed, although their sites were in a rural quiet environment.
The argument at present about this type of antenna needs to be concentrated on actual performance and not about environmental LOCATION, move it up or down a bit, use longer feed line, get it above the roof etc, Earth the outer braid before it enters the shack, use an isolation transformer. 
Let us have your observations.
de mal/g3kev
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 4:01 PM
Subject: LF: Re: HB9ASB...

Hi Stefan,

Some comments:

I think the mechanism is that the unwanted signal on the screen causes a
potential difference between gate and source of the first (J)FET. So
this causes a current flow in the output stage and so a signal at the RX
input.

I fail to see how that could be the main cause… because cutting the power to the miniwhip should then eliminate the QRM, but it does not! It probably attributes somewhat -  only some 10-15 dB, but that leaves  9+20 dB for another explanation. (i.e. my balanced-unbalanced hypothesis)

It would almost have the same effect (when ignoring the C between cable
and ground along to the choke near the antenna ground) as placing the
choke near the antenna ground, both are in series and increase the
current reducing impedance, yes...

But I have to disagree. A choke (only) at the TX would accomplish nothing (in fact it may even make it worse). With a choke at the RX end the coax will – acting as an antenna - still pick up all kinds of noise in the house, and this get transported via the outside of the coax to the miniwhip. Placing the chocke+ground near the miniwhip will on the other hand attenuate all the noise that is picked up along the coax.
An (additional) choke at the RX end _might_ make things worse at LF because in that case the noise will not be bled to earth there, with the result that the overall noise voltage on the outside might be still higher.

Hm, i rather expect a galvanic coupling i.e. stray currenty on the
supply cable of the RX. What happens if you run the RX on batteries? The
same dependency?

Running the 817 on batteries makes no difference. And galvanic coupling is unlikely because the QRM completely disappears when I disconnect the coax in the shack…. And the coax is not connected to anything else up to the miniwhip.
As for the necessity of a current balun or common mode choke when going form unbalanced to balanced:  picture a classic dipole fed by coax. (TX) current runs through the center conductor. Kirchofs law states that the same current must flow in the other direction (on the inside of the braid). Now at the dipole the current from the center conductor only has one way to go: into 1 half of the dipole. But the current on the inside of the braid has two paths: into the second half of the dipole AND into the outer side of the braid. The actual distribution is determined by the relative impedances these two other halves of the dipole have at the specific frequency. Enter the choke, which effectively blocks the path to the outer side of the braid. The same mechanism is true for reception.

Today it's nice WX here! And in NL?

What can I say… at least it isn’t raining today. But unfortunately I have other duties (QRL)

Overall an interesting discussion!! I am curious if there are any other (competing) theories J

 

Regards,
Minto pa3bca

Hi Minto,

Am 10.08.2011 13:10, schrieb Minto Witteveen:
> Hi Stefan, (et al)
>
> Well I beg to differ.. :-)
> What I think happens is this: The outside of the coax picks up
> electromagnetic radiation like any antenna (including QRM generated by
> fluorescent lamps and Alinco switching power supplies). This signal
> travels along the coax to the Miniwhip. (also in the direction of the
> receiver but that is not important here as the signal is on the
> outside of the coax).
> Upon arrival at the miniwhip this signal on the outside of the coax
> has nowhere to go ­but to the _inside_ of the outer mantle of the coax
> – it ‘rounds the corner’ at the end of the coax so to speak.
I think the mechanism is that the unwanted signal on the screen causes a
potential difference between gate and source of the first (J)FET. So
this causes a current flow in the output stage and so a signal at the RX
input.
A common mode choke between RX and the antenna ground should form a low
pass filter for unwanted signals coming from the shack. Using a common
mode choke without a local ground should have little effect, except the
coax is some 100m long (between choke and probe) ;-)

Ah BTW regarding the discussion "the cable to the E field probe is the
actual antenna": One could just try what happens if one disconnects the
power supply. If the signal is still present then the cable is the
antenna, if the signal is gone: The probe must be the antenna. Isn't
it?! :-)


> So how to avoid the QRM that is picked up by the coax to ‘travel back’
> via the inside: for the miniwhip it is indeed best (as Roelof
> mentioned) to short these signals to earth _outside_ the house,
> preferably as close to the miniwhip as possible. Grounding there would
> to the trick, aided by a (large enough) common mode choke between the
> ground point and the house. The QRM that is picked up in the house
> would be – after attenuation by the choke - directed into the ground
> and not up into the pole and the miniwhip.

Yes yes, totally agreed.
> Whatever happens in the house would then be largely irrelevant. Adding
> a common mode choke close to the rig will do little extra. (it would
> only attenuate QRM getting from the shack’s earth system to the
> outside of the coax).
It would almost have the same effect (when ignoring the C between cable
and ground along to the choke near the antenna ground) as placing the
choke near the antenna ground, both are in series and increase the
current reducing impedance, yes...

> Any signals picked up by the vertical coax between the earthing point
> and the whip will add to the received signal, but at low frequencies
> it will not be much.
> So far for theory. Now the proof of the pudding: DCF39 is now > S9+40
> dB. My old trusty QRM generator (Alinco SMPS) generates S9+25 at
> 135.500. When I switch off the miniwhip (cut the power) DCF39 drops
> down to just above the noise floor. As expected.
Ah yes, that's what i meant above (should have read your mail completely
before answering ;-) ). This is the proof that Mal cannot be right when
saying "the coax is the actual antenna".
> But the Alinco signal only drops down some 15 dB and remains the only
> signal that is audible. This is exactly what I would expect: the QRM
> travels along the outside of the coax to the miniwhip, ‘rounds the
> corner’ and comes back via the inside of the coax shield. Further
> proof that it indeed takes this route: if I disconnect the coax in the
> shack the Alinco smps signal disappears also (so it is not received
> via any other path).
Hm, i rather expect a galvanic coupling i.e. stray currenty on the
supply cable of the RX. What happens if you run the RX on batteries? The
same dependency?
There could be several reasons apply here...

> Last year I already bought 3 meters of copper pipe to drive into the
> ground in the backyard. Bet never got around to finish the job…
Today it's nice WX here! And in NL?
>
> The main reason the signal strength is much higher with the elevated
> miniwhip is (I think) caused by the fact that I am surrounded by other
> houses, gardens, trees etc. Not comparable with an open field…
Yes.

73, Stefan /DK7FC





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