Ah I see what confused me.....I missed the first spike which is up to the
top of the screen and not so obvious because of the shadow. That is high for
13v but the usual design criterial is to allows for a voltages 3.5 times the
supply voltage (I used 4 times) I dont know if that applies to Class D as
well as Class E which I played with.. I would certainly be useful to get
that down a bit. I have never tried MOVs but some have used them.
I tried to fix the frequency of the ringing I make it about 2.5MHz As Paul
says the gate drive seems clean so is this something in the drain circuit
different to Jay's
Alan
G3NYK
.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2018 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: LF: W1VD amp help - more waveforms
Alan
The main concern about the ringing is that the positive extreme stays
below the drain source breakdown voltage ... with some 'headroom'.
Otherwise ...
Jay W1VD
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Melia" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2018 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: LF: W1VD amp help - more waveforms
Paul
I think you need to step back from this a little. One point, design/cable
routing at 137kHz is normally not that critical and it is unlikely it is
having much effect. Many us have ''haywired'' PAs at these frequencies
without major troubles....even using croc-leads!!
You are unhappy about the drain waveforms.......why?? the ringing is on
the ''off'' device and so doesnt really matter in terms of efficiency.
Consider what is happening. The FET drive goes off and the drain current
starts to drop inductance in the drain feed causes the voltage to rise to
try to keep the current flowing. Then on top of this the other transistor
switches on and the transformer connection for the off side sees a rising
induced voltage out of the transformer. There is bound to be overshoot
but it does not absorb much power. It may be the generous ''dead zone''
(whilst a good idea) that is producing this picture.
The critical part is the the flat zero volt line when the FET is on. The
current pulse rings a bit, but the current drops in the second half of
the pulse.....why?? This, I think, is really the loss of power. Does
Jay's show this? The point I am making is don't get drawn up blind alleys
because a trace just does not look ''pretty''.
I think we have mentioned this before but the transient performance of
the power supply may be a factor. There should not be great changes in
the current draw because you are switching the PSU load from one
transistor to the other but there can be higher speed transients that can
affect power supply regulators in unexpected ways.
As Andy said efficiency at 12v is not very meaningful because of the high
rds of these FETs. It is usefull to run up a PA at low volts say for
safety when the antenna needs to be tuned.
Finally the scope probes are placing an. albeit small, capacitance across
the drains (I am assuming they are correctly trimmed) The waveform can
often be affected by where the ground is picked up from.
Stick with it because you are close to being ''there''
Alan
G3NYK
----- Original Message -----
From: "N1BUG" <[email protected]>
To: "Chris Wilson" <[email protected]>; "N1BUG"
<[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2018 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: LF: W1VD amp help - more waveforms
Hello Chris,
There are plenty of possible causes here I think. When it comes
right down to it, I'm not at all happy with the end result of my
construction on this amp. If it ends up not working, it's because
I'm not a good enough builder. Despite building for 35 years
including many QRO tube amplifiers, I felt this pushed my skills to
the limit... or beyond? It's not the fault of the design of course,
it's me. This requires a very different skill set from what I've
developed through the years.
The driver board you see is my fourth attempt yet I'm still very
unhappy with my layout and on-board routing of connections.
I probably made a huge error in design and mounting of the driver
board. Everyone seems to agree my gate leads are too long. This may
take a while. If I'm starting over I'll have a few more goes at
trying to come up with a more sensible layout and on-board routing.
I'll probably have to design the new board so it can be soldered to
the ground plane for mounting. The only other way I can think of
would involve complete deconstruction of the amp to drill and tap
new holes in the heat sink for relocated board mounting standoffs.
I literally spent two weeks and likely 50 attempts at winding the
output transformer, still not happy with it. I'm not sure the
primary winding is acceptably tight.
Today I'll try swapping out the cables connecting amp to LPF and LPF
to dummy load. No reason to suspect bad cables, but I've seen
strange stuff happen. The cable between amp and LPF is a bit long at
4 feet, maybe it doesn't like that. I'll have a look on the PSU side
of that choke with the scope too. Good idea. Could be some RF there
causing the PSU to go insane.
I haven't added bypass caps on the driver board yet. I'm out of .1
uf caps. I have some 1 uf ceramic but that may be a bit much? I'd
probably get shorter leads by tacking them on the back side of the
board. Bear in mind I'm testing at 13V which gives about 65W output
so there's not massive amounts of RF around yet.
Still puzzling over why my gate waveforms look OK (I think?) but
drains don't. To my usually wrong way of thinking that suggests the
ringing problem is caused by some defect in the drain circuit or
outside the amp (cables, LPF). I think I'd like to try and eliminate
those possibilities before I go back and completely redesign the
driver board and mounting to shorten gate leads. No doubt it'll
still come to that but I can hope not a bit longer. :)
Paul
On 04/09/2018 07:49 AM, Chris Wilson wrote:
Hello Paul,
If my similar amp exhibits ringing on the drains (which I monitor in
real time), it means an antenna mismatch or a dicky connection (PL
type plugs were the cause, cheap junk off Ebay, a change to branded N
types fixed that issue). So if the output transformers are the right
material and wound right, the snubber resistors and caps are correct,
and the gate driver wires are really short, and you are looking into a
decent dummy load, well, it's a mystery! You have put decoupling caps
on all the Vcc pins? If you have a nice PCB and don't want to make
new, and the IC's are socketed you could solder the decoupling caps
direct to the IC pins for a test. Or even if they aren't socketed I
guess :) Without them my amp suffered with RF getting back into stuff
and "funny things" happened. You should also have a `scope about on
the PSU side of the choke.
Monday, April 9, 2018, 12:29:18 PM, you wrote:
Thanks Hugh and everyone else who commented and provided tips on my
earlier post about this amplifier.
I will wait for Jay to have a chance to comment but I *think* I'm OK
on timing of the phase transitions. However, something is causing
major ringing (is that the correct term?) on the drains. I believe I
need to find the cause and do something about that but I have no
idea what to look at.
I've been building and even designing QRO amplifiers for 35 years
but I'm a vacuum tube HF/VHF/UHF guy! This FET class D/E stuff is
all new to me and I don't learn new tricks as easily as I once did. :)
Paul
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