From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Thu Jun 1 10:28:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v518Sssb008429 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 10:28:55 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dGLJI-0004i2-Fz for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 09:18:24 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dGLJB-0004ht-OM for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 09:18:17 +0100 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dGLJ9-0003t7-Vg for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 09:18:16 +0100 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CB2920B84 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 10:18:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 3wdgFw4GKpz10HB for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 10:18:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <592FCDC3.1050005@posteo.de> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2017 10:18:11 +0200 From: DK7FC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <592F348B.8060302@posteo.de> In-Reply-To: <592F348B.8060302@posteo.de> Subject: Re: VLF: tonite... Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010606000500060402020409" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 11845 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010606000500060402020409 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050207040205030602040401" --------------050207040205030602040401 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ...for some reason the PSK stopped after about 5 hours, see attachment. This time the symbol length was quite long and the number of symbols was small, so there must be another reason why this can happen from time to time. I could do some tests but there is a lot of work everywhere. Maybe someone can get a decode anyway? ;-) At least it's a challenge! 73, Stefan Am 31.05.2017 23:24, schrieb DK7FC: > Hi VLF, > > Despite the strong QRN i'm starting a short transmission: > > *f = 6470.100000 Hz > Start time: 31.May.2017 21:00:00 UTC > Symbol period: 20 s > Characters: 8 > CRC bits: 4 > Coding 16K21A > Duration: 6h, 24min > Antenna current: ~ 430 mA* > > 73, Stefan --------------050207040205030602040401 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...for some reason the PSK stopped after about 5 hours, see attachment. This time the symbol length was quite long and the number of symbols was small, so there must be another reason why this can happen from time to time. I could do some tests but there is a lot of work everywhere.

Maybe someone can get a decode anyway? ;-) At least it's a challenge!

73, Stefan

Am 31.05.2017 23:24, schrieb DK7FC:
Hi VLF,

Despite the strong QRN i'm starting a short transmission:

f = 6470.100000 Hz
Start time: 31.May.2017 21:00:00 UTC
Symbol period: 20 s
Characters: 8
CRC bits: 4
Coding 16K21A
Duration: 6h, 24min
Antenna current: ~ 430 mA


73, Stefan
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IqnF22IJ5I/mPn8/5wPj3Li47ED8D14Yf0eX/VwPHH/dcr/7ZrXr3Ph/if8Azj/gHpLtb/8A ceVZDhJWa2cf+jn19x/6OfXPr71j0OuOP/Rz64I+P/p+svXB/Hr1erU6Rgc9RyT+f58+vzg7 LivEWQ8/7rY3zf8AbMPfOzZD2oMPrFfJV3iMx4k9yS9AQxbsOvUgBVPYk9R+j2b+Ff8Atx6/ MV5L/wBcJs/+21z/AJQ/qiklSLGKmKvtdI/RUEHPkWMf9vuOU7f7/Gq+uf6k/op/9ePB/wC1 hlf/AKFfXV2f/wBSP94f8HrX6Q/Rg/3q/wDI0XMa/9k= --------------010606000500060402020409-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Thu Jun 1 21:13:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v51JD5kp010324 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 21:13:06 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dGVN3-0005vh-46 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 20:02:57 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dGVK9-0005vB-Op for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 19:59:57 +0100 Received: from smtp1web.tin.it ([212.216.176.195]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dGVK4-0005mQ-RU for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 19:59:54 +0100 Received: from feu19 (10.192.64.29) by smtp1web.tin.it (8.6.060.43) id 58893FFA0289D64E for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 20:59:50 +0200 Received: from (80.182.160.35) by wmlighttin.pc.tim.it; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 20:59:50 +0200 Message-ID: <15c65073801.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 20:59:50 +0200 (CEST) From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 80.182.160.35 X-Scan-Signature: 90338e40e9ba9cca82d2bbd7ba5c2c02 Subject: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lipkowski.org id v51JD5kp010324 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11846 anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing flowers? Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that some effects in this area are present. I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output is stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at 40 and 50V. The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts from 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. I need a long weekend of meditation... 73 Marco IK1HSS ----Messaggio originale---- Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 A: Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward the PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) the PS should provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for 20A @ 25°C (13A @ 100°C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try ;-) I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm²Ae: if I am not totally wrong B should be < 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the primary Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel is running in its cage ;-) Thanks again for assistence Marco IK1HSS ----Messaggio originale---- Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 A: Cc: Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance of 6.8 ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't think you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more realistic. As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very wrong. I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core Ae, but lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. V = 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax of 0.1 that suggests 85V RMS. Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . Before a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload = 13 ohms Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be customised to you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper settings foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. Only when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard circuit. When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) unit before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. Andy On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it wrote: > Hi Andy... me again... > > I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick > dinner and connected all, but... > > now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my > readings/calculations: > (see attached picture) > again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc after > an initial burst it start to fall down.. > I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 kHz > with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the > "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... > > mumble mumble > > I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at > 180V! > > Marco, IK1HSS > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 > A: > Cc: > Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there the > values are different from your statement in the email. It shows > primary 5 > turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 ohms > which > is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to the > ideal > Rl > > The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high a Q > is > used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the region > of > 6. > > Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 > Watts > from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will end > up > with high voltage and critical tuning > > Andy G4JNT > > On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: > > > Yes. > > As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that the > peak > > of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER than > the peak > > by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more power > (1.6 > > times) than it was supposed to. > > > > So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine > > component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of the > > resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to RMS- > sine > > ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a > further > > factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. > > > > Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux in a > > magnetic code, V = 4.44.F.N.A.B > > The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes about > from > > the same sort of sine to square transform. > > > > Andy > > > > On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it > wrote: > > > >> > >> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the same > of > >> Vrms before FETs make their work! > >> > >> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! > >> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with the > >> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) > >> > >> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to burnout > the > >> antenna hi > >> > >> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy > >> > >> 73 Marco, IK1HSS > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 > >> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", > >> > >> Cc: > >> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >> > >> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output > >> transformer > >> doesn't look right. > >> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary of > 12 > >> turns...*" > >> > >> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. > >> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 = 229V pk-pk > >> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] = 81V RMS > >> > >> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms (fund) = > >> 0.45VDC > >> > >> For 500 Watts out, Rload = 81 ^ 2 / 500 = 13 ohms > >> > >> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) = 1.9: > >> 1 so > >> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 > turns > >> on > >> the primary > >> > >> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary exactly > as > >> the > >> square of the voltage. > >> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: > >> > >> 12V DC = 12V pk-pk = 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi = 5.4V RMS > (fundamental) > >> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 = 2.2 Watts > >> > >> check using ratio of voltages, squared : > >> > >> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W = 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. > >> QED > >> > >> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 = 78 > >> ohms > >> > >> At 40V DC == 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 = 4.1 watts which > is > >> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, but > the > >> low > >> power is in the area of what you measured.. > >> > >> Andy G4JNT > >> > >> > >> > >> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it > >> wrote: > >> > >> > Hi Chris, > >> > > >> > I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I had > no > >> > success.. > >> > As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the > >> > attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... > >> > Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and > >> > suggestion are welcome! > >> > > >> > 73, Marco IK1HSS > >> > > >> > > >> > -----Original message----- > >> > > >> > From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it > >> > Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 > >> > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > >> > Subject: For today the FETs survived... > >> > > >> > Hi LF, > >> > > >> > hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > >> > My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > >> > Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge of > >> > Andy.. > >> > Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to the > >> > 180Vdc supply? > >> > > >> > Thank you > >> > 73 Marco IK1HSS > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is believed to > be > >> > clean. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >> > From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" > >> > To: > >> > Cc: > >> > Bcc: > >> > Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) > >> > Subject: For today the FETs survived... > >> > Hi LF, > >> > > >> > hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > >> > My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > >> > Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge of > >> > Andy.. > >> > Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to the > >> > 180Vdc supply? > >> > > >> > Thank you > >> > 73 Marco IK1HSS > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is believed to > be > >> > clean. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Thu Jun 1 21:58:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM,SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v51Jw0tv010485 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 21:58:01 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dGW8C-00066Z-56 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 20:51:40 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dGW5u-00066C-5i for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 20:49:18 +0100 Received: from omr-a018e.mx.aol.com ([204.29.186.64]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dGW5o-0005td-Jv for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 20:49:14 +0100 Received: from mtaomg-aam02.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-aam02.mx.aol.com [172.27.19.148]) by omr-a018e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id C87423800241 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 15:49:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-ace07g.mail.aol.com (core-ace07.mail.aol.com [172.27.23.7]) by mtaomg-aam02.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id B413338000087 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 15:49:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 188.192.95.60 by webprd-a43.mail.aol.com (10.72.52.213) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Thu, 01 Jun 2017 15:49:05 -0400 Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 15:49:05 -0400 From: Markus Vester To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-Id: <15c65344c44-364a-27bd2@webprd-a43.mail.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <15c65073801.marcocadeddu@tin.it> References: <15c65073801.marcocadeddu@tin.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: JAS STD X-Originating-IP: [188.192.95.60] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20150623; t=1496346550; bh=cKUZuqDWgUr9seH8v7gPumfcobflSrvTLFSm+ilzP0Q=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=s7erC7ZFsyn+wp7KNLKqf92mW+3mlhAyUeiaXVgDU2BHb+v5FRqYI89b0WBDhwza3 Lft9okogez04ZdG4WjEIgmcwUbSyqBq5JNwJUlKGK6hfnRvwbSsa7cBKjDxGB8Py8W B0GVM9CESb99YGjnszklEw7HYH5xWUSom1+VqtYI= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1b139459306fb11894 X-Scan-Signature: 046f068074e745d5c60ca47deee9b503 Subject: Re: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_197485_359436636.1496346545218" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11847 ------=_Part_197485_359436636.1496346545218 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Try VLF! No tinkering with delicate "Receivers" and tickly "Transmitters",= on absurdly high frequencies you can't even hear. Connect your lightest PC= to any ol' GPS device from the junkbox, grab your family's disposed Stereo= from the attic, wind a couple of thousand turns around a dustbin, and off = you go! 73, Markus -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: marcocadeddu An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Do, 1. Jun 2017 21:06 Betreff: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing=20 flowers? ... ------=_Part_197485_359436636.1496346545218 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Try VLF!  No tinkering with delicate "Receivers" an= d tickly "Transmitters", on absurdly high frequencies you can't even hear.&= nbsp;Connect your lightest PC to any ol' GPS device from the junkbox, = grab your family's disposed Stereo from the attic, wind a couple of thousan= d turns around a dustbin, and off you go!

73, Markus

-----Urs= pr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: marcocadeddu <marcocadeddu@tin.= it>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschi= ckt: Do, 1. Jun 2017 21:06
Betreff: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today = the FETs survived...

anybody has good ideas for a replacement = hobby?? fishing? growing
flowers?
...


------=_Part_197485_359436636.1496346545218-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Thu Jun 1 22:08:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v51K8oJt010513 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 22:08:51 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dGWJt-0006Fw-OC for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 21:03:45 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dGWJj-0006Fn-BW for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 21:03:35 +0100 Received: from mail-lf0-x230.google.com ([2a00:1450:4010:c07::230]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dGWJf-0005xK-D2 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 21:03:34 +0100 Received: by mail-lf0-x230.google.com with SMTP id a136so18648844lfa.0 for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 13:03:30 -0700 (PDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ifiCEGRTMbP7i5/3dlrZA/S54zgxhL9u6k/vhOLlj4I=; b=k9dYT5fE32UbQ8O2LhAJf24rxrnlk6KUbZGmNL+SwDIVMALlkU4Sv1P2mCgRlwjozt SB5eQ3EcSIcu116c7G0FQXIIIuXqWLODdkZSxR1vJc+70PO9BCvTo7DO8CxlwvzYF3Jr u6pzqjWX6qux0G8QdDSq92hrIExPT84JGGAxLTu8rH/I0XefasnxpoxsVKRWvJBVhUMT hShb/lQjhE34x0N89P5LWm506ROwt5lMjFfYkiYJijlEUMI5wOtnhj5KVbS/Cte3zJY+ HQEg0SU9Gj7jBE1JX2u97CWO+m/NHp56H8t4yFBM/yxu+fee5Afen2s9GDYr6OCkmgVm sVnA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ifiCEGRTMbP7i5/3dlrZA/S54zgxhL9u6k/vhOLlj4I=; b=P/vH4+bHyqaAAf9d13WJQlYdvwouvAwLZ7lOmafnzOelf3PkmZBTJYYGf6OnHQ0Pgj lmnBp3zPjGqdNmwV6t6VnRhlZbn+kkwSBYQqBMImC3RDa7lhd+KKTjo0Ci4tO00cmV9y gTTKuL65XlQoBzCAaju5ptsTZDGQRERFuRFh2L0AdpxQfcKzis2E5H/R2J1EXaZfa8ga 4mxVhFQAPil0DFWXGdBzaN6tt3qzeMhhhdigEiVbHRARAZMM/jfGzMarYoeMoNaIfFIe 6G1cq/hR0pwG7npqyPkhNNU94f01SlH6ELsN0oBKMTV15S25aysTIRIWYbN8dKrLrIB6 qxyw== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcBGaTzN349wmXaXhOq7fU2G1h4ry5srAumIWeV1qibJrRC7wpKc iZYKT4nhIMjlf1lSYEwejrbU2X5nSWu/ X-Received: by 10.25.198.211 with SMTP id w202mr1021654lff.28.1496347408895; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 13:03:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.156.13 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 13:03:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <15c65073801.marcocadeddu@tin.it> References: <15c65073801.marcocadeddu@tin.it> From: Andy Talbot Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 21:03:28 +0100 Message-ID: To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Scan-Signature: a0496e632f2079c318be178b466bd153 Subject: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1a08f2c4b0620550eb87f4" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11848 --94eb2c1a08f2c4b0620550eb87f4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like capacitors heating up and changing its value. I can't think of any other component that will change with dissipation / heating. What type of capacitor are you using in the tank? Andy On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it wrote: > anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing > flowers? > > Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that > some effects in this area are present. > > I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected > simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. > The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output is > stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output > starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at 40 > and 50V. > The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts from > 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. > > I need a long weekend of meditation... > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 > A: > Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D > > yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward the > PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) > > the PS should > provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for 20A > @ 25=C2=B0C (13A @ 100=C2=B0C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try ;= -) > > I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level > where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm=C2=B2Ae: if I > am > not totally wrong B should be < 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the primary > > Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel is > running in its cage ;-) > > Thanks again for assistence > > Marco IK1HSS > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 > A: > Cc: > Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance of > 6.8 > ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't > think > you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more > realistic. > > As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very > wrong. > I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core Ae, > but > lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. > > V =3D 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax of > 0.1 > that suggests 85V RMS. > Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . > Before > a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload =3D 13 ohms > > Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be > customised > to > you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper > settings > foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. > Only > when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard circuit. > > When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) > unit > before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. > > Andy > > > > > > On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it > wrote: > > > Hi Andy... me again... > > > > I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick > > dinner and connected all, but... > > > > now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my > > readings/calculations: > > (see attached picture) > > again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc after > > an initial burst it start to fall down.. > > I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 > kHz > > with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the > > "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... > > > > mumble mumble > > > > I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at > > 180V! > > > > Marco, IK1HSS > > > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 > > A: > > Cc: > > Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there the > > values are different from your statement in the email. It shows > > primary 5 > > turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 ohms > > which > > is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to the > > ideal > > Rl > > > > The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high a > Q > > is > > used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the > region > > of > > 6. > > > > Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 > > Watts > > from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will end > > up > > with high voltage and critical tuning > > > > Andy G4JNT > > > > On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: > > > > > Yes. > > > As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that the > > peak > > > of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER than > > the peak > > > by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more > power > > (1.6 > > > times) than it was supposed to. > > > > > > So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine > > > component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of the > > > resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to > RMS- > > sine > > > ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a > > further > > > factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. > > > > > > Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux > in > a > > > magnetic code, V =3D 4.44.F.N.A.B > > > The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes about > > from > > > the same sort of sine to square transform. > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the same > > of > > >> Vrms before FETs make their work! > > >> > > >> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! > > >> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with the > > >> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) > > >> > > >> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to burnout > > the > > >> antenna hi > > >> > > >> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy > > >> > > >> 73 Marco, IK1HSS > > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > > >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > >> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 > > >> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", > > >> > > >> Cc: > > >> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > > >> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output > > >> transformer > > >> doesn't look right. > > >> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary of > > 12 > > >> turns...*" > > >> > > >> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. > > >> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 =3D 229V pk-pk > > >> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] =3D 81V RMS > > >> > > >> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms > (fund) > =3D > > >> 0.45VDC > > >> > > >> For 500 Watts out, Rload =3D 81 ^ 2 / 500 =3D 13 ohms > > >> > > >> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) =3D > 1.9: > > >> 1 so > > >> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 > > turns > > >> on > > >> the primary > > >> > > >> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary exactly > > as > > >> the > > >> square of the voltage. > > >> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: > > >> > > >> 12V DC =3D 12V pk-pk =3D 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi =3D 5.4V RMS > > (fundamental) > > >> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 =3D 2.2 Watts > > >> > > >> check using ratio of voltages, squared : > > >> > > >> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W =3D 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. > > >> QED > > >> > > >> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 =3D > 78 > > >> ohms > > >> > > >> At 40V DC =3D=3D 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 =3D 4.1 watts > which > > is > > >> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, but > > the > > >> low > > >> power is in the area of what you measured.. > > >> > > >> Andy G4JNT > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > Hi Chris, > > >> > > > >> > I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I > had > > no > > >> > success.. > > >> > As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the > > >> > attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... > > >> > Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and > > >> > suggestion are welcome! > > >> > > > >> > 73, Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -----Original message----- > > >> > > > >> > From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it > > >> > Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 > > >> > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > > >> > Subject: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > > > >> > Hi LF, > > >> > > > >> > hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > > >> > My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > > >> > Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > of > > >> > Andy.. > > >> > Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > the > > >> > 180Vdc supply? > > >> > > > >> > Thank you > > >> > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is believed > to > > be > > >> > clean. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > >> > From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" > > >> > To: > > >> > Cc: > > >> > Bcc: > > >> > Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) > > >> > Subject: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > Hi LF, > > >> > > > >> > hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > > >> > My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > > >> > Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > of > > >> > Andy.. > > >> > Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > the > > >> > 180Vdc supply? > > >> > > > >> > Thank you > > >> > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is believed > to > > be > > >> > clean. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --94eb2c1a08f2c4b0620550eb87f4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it l= ooks like capacitors heating up and changing its value. =C2=A0 I can't = think of any other component that will change with dissipation / heating.= =C2=A0 What type of capacitor are you using in the tank?

Andy
=C2=A0 =C2=A0

On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it <marcocadeddu@tin.it&= gt; wrote:
anybody has good ideas = for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing
flowers?

Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that
some effects in this area are present.

I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected
simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge.
The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output is
stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output
starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at 40
and 50V.
The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts from
137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz.

I need a long weekend of meditation...
73 Marco IK1HSS


----Messaggio originale----
Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it
Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05
A: <rsgb_lf_group@blacks= heep.org>
Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived...

Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D

yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward the
PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-)

the PS should
provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for 20A
@ 25=C2=B0C (13A @ 100=C2=B0C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try ;-)=

I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level
where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm=C2=B2Ae: if I am
not totally wrong B should be < 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the primary
Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel is
running in its cage ;-)

Thanks again for assistence

Marco IK1HSS



----Messaggio originale----
Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com
Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39
A: <rsgb_lf_group@blacks= heep.org>
Cc: <dead.fets@gmail.com><= br> Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived...

7:19 turns (assuming 50R output)=C2=A0 means you have a load resistance of<= br> 6.8
ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW=C2=A0 I don't=
think
you really mean to go that extreme do you?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 13 ohms is more
realistic.

As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very
wrong.
I wonder if the transformer is saturating.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Not sure of your cor= e Ae,
but
lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter.

V =3D 4.44.F.N.A.B=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a = Bmax of
0.1
that suggests 85V RMS.
Which is exactlyly what you have.=C2=A0 I suggest more primary turns .
Before
a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload =3D 13 ohms

Is the guard circuit in place ?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Don't forget, it has to be<= br> customised
to
you exact currents and coil Q.=C2=A0 Get teh PA operating to its proper
settings
foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly.
Only
when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard circuit.

When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable)
unit
before even thinking of teh guard circuitry.

Andy





On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadedd= u@tin.it <marcocadeddu@tin.it= >
wrote:

> Hi Andy... me again...
>
> I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick
> dinner and connected all, but...
>
> now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my
> readings/calculations:
> (see attached picture)
> again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc after<= br> > an initial burst it start to fall down..
> I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137
kHz
> with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the
> "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz...
>
> mumble mumble
>
> I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at
> 180V!
>
> Marco, IK1HSS
>
>
> ----Messaggio originale----
> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50
> A: <rsgb_lf_group@b= lacksheep.org>
> Cc: <dead.fets@gmail.com= >
> Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived...
>
> I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there = the
> values are different from your statement in the email.=C2=A0 It shows<= br> > primary 5
> turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 ohms<= br> > which
> is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to the > ideal
> Rl
>
> The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high a Q
> is
> used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the
region
> of
> 6.
>
> Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 > Watts
> from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will end<= br> > up
> with high voltage and critical tuning
>
> Andy=C2=A0 G4JNT
>
> On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot <andy.g4jnt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes.
> > As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot th= at the
> peak
> > of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER tha= n
> the peak
> > by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more power
> (1.6
> > times) than it was supposed to.
> >
> > So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine=
> > component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27.=C2=A0 The RMS = of the
> > resulting sine=C2=A0 is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak squa= re to
RMS-
> sine
> > ratio of=C2=A0 0.9..=C2=A0 =C2=A0If you specifye peak-peak of the= square wave, a
> further
> > factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before.<= br> > >
> > Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for=C2=A0 = flux
in
a
> > magnetic code,=C2=A0 =C2=A0V =3D 4.44.F.N.A.B
> > The magic number 4.44=C2=A0 is actually SQRT(2) * pi=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0and comes about
> from
> > the same sort of sine to square transform.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, m= arcocadeddu@tin.it <marcocade= ddu@tin.it>
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the= same
> of
> >> Vrms before FETs make their work!
> >>
> >> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!!
> >> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably wit= h the
> >> right Xfmr=C2=A0 the PA can give higher satisfaction :-)
> >>
> >> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready t= o burnout
> the
> >> antenna hi
> >>
> >> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy
> >>
> >> 73 Marco, IK1HSS
> >> ----Messaggio originale----
> >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.= com
> >> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18
> >> A: "marcocadeddu@= tin.it"<marcocadedd= u@tin.it>,
> >> <rsgb_lf_g= roup@blacksheep.org>
> >> Cc: <dead.fets@gmai= l.com>
> >> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived...
> >>
> >> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output<= br> > >> transformer
> >> doesn't look right.
> >> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and se= condary of
> 12
> >> turns...*"
> >>
> >> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave.
> >> The fundamental sine part of that is=C2=A0 4/pi * 180 =3D 229= V pk-pk
> >> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] =3D 81V RMS
> >>
> >> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms<= br> (fund)
=3D
> >> 0.45VDC
> >>
> >> For 500 Watts out, Rload =3D=C2=A0 81 ^ 2 / 500 =3D=C2=A0 13 = ohms
> >>
> >> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) = =3D
1.9:
> >> 1=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0so
> >> call it 2:1=C2=A0 Keeping 12 turns on the=C2=A0 secondary mea= ns you need 6
> turns
> >> on
> >> the primary
> >>
> >> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary ex= actly
> as
> >> the
> >> square of the voltage.
> >> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply:
> >>
> >> 12V=C2=A0 DC =3D 12V pk-pk =3D 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi =3D 5.= 4V RMS
> (fundamental)
> >> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 =3D 2.2 Watts
> >>
> >> check using ratio of voltages, squared :
> >>
> >> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W =3D 2.2 Watts which is the same as abov= e.
> >> QED
> >>
> >> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 5= 0 =3D
78
> >> ohms
> >>
> >> At 40V DC =3D=3D 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 =3D 4.1= watts
which
> is
> >> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd= , but
> the
> >> low
> >> power is in the area of what you measured..
> >>
> >> Andy=C2=A0 G4JNT
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it <marco= cadeddu@tin.it>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hi Chris,
> >> >
> >> > I tried to post this message on the reflector but appare= ntly I
had
> no
> >> > success..
> >> > As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in th= e
> >> > attachment the first trials were not enocouraging...
> >> > Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretati= on and
> >> > suggestion are welcome!
> >> >
> >> > 73, Marco IK1HSS
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -----Original message-----
> >> >
> >> > From: "marco= cadeddu@tin.it" marcocadedd= u@tin.it
> >> > Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200
> >> > To: rsgb= _lf_group@blacksheep.org
> >> > Subject: For today the FETs survived...
> >> >
> >> > Hi LF,
> >> >
> >> > hope that also the toroids of Chris survived!
> >> > My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected := -(
> >> > Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half = bridge
of
> >> > Andy..
> >> > Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecti= ng to
the
> >> > 180Vdc supply?
> >> >
> >> > Thank you
> >> > 73 Marco IK1HSS
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is b= elieved
to
> be
> >> > clean.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >> > From: "marco= cadeddu@tin.it" <marcoca= deddu@tin.it>
> >> > To: <= rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
> >> > Cc:
> >> > Bcc:
> >> > Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST)
> >> > Subject: For today the FETs survived...
> >> > Hi LF,
> >> >
> >> > hope that also the toroids of Chris survived!
> >> > My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected := -(
> >> > Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half = bridge
of
> >> > Andy..
> >> > Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecti= ng to
the
> >> > 180Vdc supply?
> >> >
> >> > Thank you
> >> > 73 Marco IK1HSS
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is b= elieved
to
> be
> >> > clean.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>









--94eb2c1a08f2c4b0620550eb87f4-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Thu Jun 1 22:14:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v51KE322010521 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 22:14:04 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dGWPe-0006MC-W0 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 21:09:42 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dGWPY-0006M3-Tm for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 21:09:36 +0100 Received: from mailfe01.swip.net ([212.247.154.1] helo=swip.net) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dGWPW-00060F-6R for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 21:09:35 +0100 X-T2-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 Received: from [81.224.109.193] (account cxu-dcw-tyr@tele2.se HELO [192.168.1.9]) by mailfe01.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTPSA id 688135441 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 22:09:22 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <15c65073801.marcocadeddu@tin.it> <15c65344c44-364a-27bd2@webprd-a43.mail.aol.com> From: Johan Bodin Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 22:09:19 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <15c65344c44-364a-27bd2@webprd-a43.mail.aol.com> X-Scan-Signature: f62c7cf8eeb8e5a327b71719e9bffff1 Subject: Re: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11849 Haha! :-D The impressive work of some talented radio amateurs seem to have shifted our view of the RF spectrum; 137kHz is now "microwaves" :-) 73 Johan SM6LKM Den 2017-06-01 kl. 21:49, skrev Markus Vester: > Try VLF! No tinkering with delicate "Receivers" and tickly > "Transmitters", on absurdly high frequencies you can't even > hear. Connect your lightest PC to any ol' GPS device from the junkbox, > grab your family's disposed Stereo from the attic, wind a couple of > thousand turns around a dustbin, and off you go! > > 73, Markus > > -----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung----- > Von: marcocadeddu > An: rsgb_lf_group > Verschickt: Do, 1. Jun 2017 21:06 > Betreff: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing > flowers? > ... > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Thu Jun 1 22:25:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v51KPC42010570 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 22:25:13 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dGWaG-0006V8-7a for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 21:20:40 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dGWa7-0006Uv-Ak for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 21:20:31 +0100 Received: from mx0a-0020c901.pphosted.com ([148.163.148.100]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dGWa4-00063i-3B for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 21:20:30 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (m0094799.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-0020c901.pphosted.com (8.16.0.20/8.16.0.20) with SMTP id v51KIn4C011631 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 16:20:23 -0400 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=hbo.com Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hbo.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version : content-type; s=proofpoint; bh=wKgYkIVPNMKNMUW8rVxiuUdooVejWg/LgrcQXnk6qyo=; b=MZmse2sWDjFGHd2a47+iWbAz6NmodGGfmIvMJK1o0dCkD1IT2nTLeZloyK6u8k9BUXWt dxqdEIvbQMQRsHrY9GDuWQe5/efuAbNEn4Mm2W4jJaBF/DQW4DdMvfS4wPwuA9elL38g CS5tQp9MstvCQZ4Im8phq8s+EWVKXeaIv9opdZfS2Qp2HdgBIFNwEu4MwegnJWLhag/m htusXMqRB4gmKOkN3q5iANmXnNW8GcSBiNCQb7OiobPdBls9UXze+SPNPNHrCfO9dQdZ uPRTX8w3SkUe94dDx0+exfHLLLyLVlsMze96eVsbk599JU7Alx1Wj5lM/Dr3PcUlXxsC Sw== Received: from mail2.hbo.com (mail2.hbo.com [206.208.180.242]) by mx0a-0020c901.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2atmafs8g0-1 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 16:20:23 -0400 X-WSS-ID: 0OQVXTZ-0C-1GQ-02 X-M-MSG: X-Outbound: PASSED Received: from W8HAEX08HUB.hbo.homebox.com (w8haex08hub.homebox.com [10.162.140.145]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.hbo.com (Axway MailGate 5.5.0) with ESMTPS id 2B837300765 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 16:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from W8NYEX05MB.hbo.homebox.com ([fe80::f59d:ec92:6da7:2f08]) by W8HAEX08HUB.hbo.homebox.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0146.000; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 16:20:20 -0400 From: "Musser, Elmer (HBO)" To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Thread-Topic: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Thread-Index: AQHS2wk+JdE8n1iaYEaHOtbT3CYLP6IQrTuAgAAFp4D//7/OgA== Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 20:20:20 +0000 Message-ID: <1C56C3E9E6AA474F8F47CBFC003BAF75D5D37AB7@W8NYEX05MB.hbo.homebox.com> References: <15c65073801.marcocadeddu@tin.it> <15c65344c44-364a-27bd2@webprd-a43.mail.aol.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.254.70.251] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:,, definitions=2017-06-01_05:,, signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1703280000 definitions=main-1706010377 X-Scan-Signature: 5c335215f1b3de26d890ee84d49616ce Subject: RE: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by lipkowski.org id v51KPC42010570 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11850 Got to chime in: Wrinkled D.C. N3AGE 73's -----Original Message----- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Johan Bodin Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 4:09 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... **External Email received from: "Johan Bodin" ** Haha! :-D The impressive work of some talented radio amateurs seem to have shifted our view of the RF spectrum; 137kHz is now "microwaves" :-) 73 Johan SM6LKM Den 2017-06-01 kl. 21:49, skrev Markus Vester: > Try VLF! No tinkering with delicate "Receivers" and tickly > "Transmitters", on absurdly high frequencies you can't even hear. > Connect your lightest PC to any ol' GPS device from the junkbox, grab > your family's disposed Stereo from the attic, wind a couple of > thousand turns around a dustbin, and off you go! > > 73, Markus > > -----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung----- > Von: marcocadeddu > An: rsgb_lf_group > Verschickt: Do, 1. Jun 2017 21:06 > Betreff: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing > flowers? > ... > > This e-mail is intended only for the use of the addressees. Any copying, forwarding, printing or other use of this e-mail by persons other than the addressees is not authorized. This e-mail may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately by return e-mail (including the original message in your reply) and then delete and discard all copies of the e-mail. Thank you. HB75 From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Thu Jun 1 22:25:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v51KPlZN010577 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 22:25:49 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dGWaB-0006V4-C0 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 21:20:35 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dGWa0-0006Um-1Q for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 21:20:24 +0100 Received: from smtp2web.tin.it ([212.216.176.236]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dGWZw-00063U-CM for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 21:20:22 +0100 Received: from feu3 (10.192.64.13) by smtp2web.tin.it (8.6.060.43) id 5822EBD203AC920B for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 22:20:18 +0200 Received: from (80.182.160.35) by wmlighttin.pc.tim.it; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 22:20:18 +0200 Message-ID: <15c6550e3aa.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 22:20:18 +0200 (CEST) From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 80.182.160.35 X-Scan-Signature: c61917eaf8bc8733d7e85540486fff22 Subject: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lipkowski.org id v51KPlZN010577 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11851 that was also my thought.. but they run at room temperature: the resonance is obtained with 4 polyesther 2200 pF 2000 Vdc caps. the classic boxes 25x15x5mm Marco ---- Messaggio originale---- Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com Data: 1-giu-2017 22.03 A: Ogg: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like capacitors heating up and changing its value. I can't think of any other component that will change with dissipation / heating. What type of capacitor are you using in the tank? Andy On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it wrote: > anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing > flowers? > > Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that > some effects in this area are present. > > I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected > simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. > The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output is > stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output > starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at 40 > and 50V. > The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts from > 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. > > I need a long weekend of meditation... > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 > A: > Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D > > yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward the > PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) > > the PS should > provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for 20A > @ 25°C (13A @ 100°C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try ;-) > > I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level > where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm²Ae: if I > am > not totally wrong B should be < 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the primary > > Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel is > running in its cage ;-) > > Thanks again for assistence > > Marco IK1HSS > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 > A: > Cc: > Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance of > 6.8 > ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't > think > you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more > realistic. > > As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very > wrong. > I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core Ae, > but > lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. > > V = 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax of > 0.1 > that suggests 85V RMS. > Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . > Before > a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload = 13 ohms > > Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be > customised > to > you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper > settings > foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. > Only > when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard circuit. > > When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) > unit > before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. > > Andy > > > > > > On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it > wrote: > > > Hi Andy... me again... > > > > I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick > > dinner and connected all, but... > > > > now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my > > readings/calculations: > > (see attached picture) > > again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc after > > an initial burst it start to fall down.. > > I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 > kHz > > with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the > > "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... > > > > mumble mumble > > > > I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at > > 180V! > > > > Marco, IK1HSS > > > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 > > A: > > Cc: > > Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there the > > values are different from your statement in the email. It shows > > primary 5 > > turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 ohms > > which > > is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to the > > ideal > > Rl > > > > The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high a > Q > > is > > used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the > region > > of > > 6. > > > > Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 > > Watts > > from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will end > > up > > with high voltage and critical tuning > > > > Andy G4JNT > > > > On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: > > > > > Yes. > > > As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that the > > peak > > > of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER than > > the peak > > > by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more > power > > (1.6 > > > times) than it was supposed to. > > > > > > So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine > > > component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of the > > > resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to > RMS- > > sine > > > ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a > > further > > > factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. > > > > > > Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux > in > a > > > magnetic code, V = 4.44.F.N.A.B > > > The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes about > > from > > > the same sort of sine to square transform. > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the same > > of > > >> Vrms before FETs make their work! > > >> > > >> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! > > >> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with the > > >> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) > > >> > > >> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to burnout > > the > > >> antenna hi > > >> > > >> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy > > >> > > >> 73 Marco, IK1HSS > > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > > >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > >> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 > > >> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", > > >> > > >> Cc: > > >> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > > >> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output > > >> transformer > > >> doesn't look right. > > >> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary of > > 12 > > >> turns...*" > > >> > > >> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. > > >> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 = 229V pk-pk > > >> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] = 81V RMS > > >> > > >> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms > (fund) > = > > >> 0.45VDC > > >> > > >> For 500 Watts out, Rload = 81 ^ 2 / 500 = 13 ohms > > >> > > >> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) = > 1.9: > > >> 1 so > > >> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 > > turns > > >> on > > >> the primary > > >> > > >> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary exactly > > as > > >> the > > >> square of the voltage. > > >> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: > > >> > > >> 12V DC = 12V pk-pk = 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi = 5.4V RMS > > (fundamental) > > >> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 = 2.2 Watts > > >> > > >> check using ratio of voltages, squared : > > >> > > >> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W = 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. > > >> QED > > >> > > >> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 = > 78 > > >> ohms > > >> > > >> At 40V DC == 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 = 4.1 watts > which > > is > > >> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, but > > the > > >> low > > >> power is in the area of what you measured.. > > >> > > >> Andy G4JNT > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > Hi Chris, > > >> > > > >> > I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I > had > > no > > >> > success.. > > >> > As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the > > >> > attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... > > >> > Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and > > >> > suggestion are welcome! > > >> > > > >> > 73, Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -----Original message----- > > >> > > > >> > From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it > > >> > Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 > > >> > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > > >> > Subject: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > > > >> > Hi LF, > > >> > > > >> > hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > > >> > My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > > >> > Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > of > > >> > Andy.. > > >> > Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > the > > >> > 180Vdc supply? > > >> > > > >> > Thank you > > >> > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is believed > to > > be > > >> > clean. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > >> > From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" > > >> > To: > > >> > Cc: > > >> > Bcc: > > >> > Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) > > >> > Subject: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > Hi LF, > > >> > > > >> > hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > > >> > My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > > >> > Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > of > > >> > Andy.. > > >> > Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > the > > >> > 180Vdc supply? > > >> > > > >> > Thank you > > >> > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is believed > to > > be > > >> > clean. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Thu Jun 1 22:29:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v51KT1nZ010584 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 22:29:02 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dGWdx-0006cj-5D for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 21:24:29 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dGWdu-0006cV-Vt for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 21:24:26 +0100 Received: from smtp3web.tin.it ([212.216.176.237]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dGWds-00066r-53 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 21:24:25 +0100 Received: from feu3 (10.192.64.13) by smtp3web.tin.it (8.6.060.43) id 583FEE8C031DE4F9 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 22:24:23 +0200 Received: from (80.182.160.35) by wmlighttin.pc.tim.it; Thu, 1 Jun 2017 22:24:23 +0200 Message-ID: <15c65549eaa.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 22:24:23 +0200 (CEST) From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 80.182.160.35 X-Scan-Signature: 3f8d74a8c70dd416d0a3a1dbcb9bb89f Subject: R: Re: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lipkowski.org id v51KT1nZ010584 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11852 Hi Johan, you know if the frequency goes up, the wavelenght becomes smaller therefore the peaks are closer and closer so µwave are very similar to DC ;-) Marcus, do you mean pick the stereo and organize a party in the garden? :-))) mmmmm bring a couple of echte Pils :-))) ----Messaggio originale---- Da: jhbodin@tele2.se Data: 1-giu-2017 22.09 A: Ogg: Re: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Haha! :-D The impressive work of some talented radio amateurs seem to have shifted our view of the RF spectrum; 137kHz is now "microwaves" :-) 73 Johan SM6LKM Den 2017-06-01 kl. 21:49, skrev Markus Vester: > Try VLF! No tinkering with delicate "Receivers" and tickly > "Transmitters", on absurdly high frequencies you can't even > hear. Connect your lightest PC to any ol' GPS device from the junkbox, > grab your family's disposed Stereo from the attic, wind a couple of > thousand turns around a dustbin, and off you go! > > 73, Markus > > -----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung----- > Von: marcocadeddu > An: rsgb_lf_group > Verschickt: Do, 1. Jun 2017 21:06 > Betreff: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing > flowers? > ... > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Fri Jun 2 14:16:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v52CGX9u013277 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 14:16:34 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dGlLR-0001Fj-76 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 13:06:21 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dGlLL-0001Fa-6L for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 13:06:15 +0100 Received: from smtp2web.tin.it ([212.216.176.236]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dGlLG-0000Lz-Sp for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 13:06:13 +0100 Received: from feu20 (10.192.64.30) by smtp2web.tin.it (8.6.060.43) id 5822EBD203AE9B8C for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 14:06:08 +0200 Received: from (80.182.160.35) by wmlighttin.pc.tim.it; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 14:06:08 +0200 Message-ID: <15c68b2d2ed.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 14:06:08 +0200 (CEST) From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 80.182.160.35 X-Scan-Signature: a3588b8e208cb43b8cea35953aaed717 Subject: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lipkowski.org id v52CGX9u013277 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11853 now my thoughts are even more confused.... Hi Andy, me again.... after a long night of meditation, I remembered I had a bounch of old style mica capacitators 1000pF 1000V.. I put 9 of them in parallel to get the closer value to the 8800pF I had before. Of course the resonance moved a bit and now is on 134.5 kHz with 3dB bandwidth of 9 kHz (Q=15 I know is a bit to high..) so carried out some tests on 134 kHz (of course on the dummyload) all without guard circuit 1st test xfmr 7T/19T (Ae197mm² R50 mat T38): 2Wout @10Vdc; 6,5 Wout@20Vdc; 13,7Wout@30Vdc stable.. @40Vdc after a quick peak the power slowly goes down till below 1W! 2nd test I had still on hands the previous xfmr 5T/12T (Ae197mm² same core as 1st test) so was worth to make a trial... same trend :-( for Vdc> 30V after a first peak... it goes down. I had another core available with different material (N30, Ae 154mm² R58) so I prepared a new xfmr with this core 7T/14T: 1,4Wout@10Vdc; 4,6Wout@20Vdc; 9,2Wout@30Vdc .... at 40Vdc a short burst with almost 15Wout and then down down down... :-(((((( I noticed a difference in comparison to your project: you connected the + and - rails to ground via 10nF and here I used 100nF caps could it explain this behaviour? 73 Marco ----Messaggio originale---- Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it Data: 1-giu-2017 22.20 A: Ogg: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... that was also my thought.. but they run at room temperature: the resonance is obtained with 4 polyesther 2200 pF 2000 Vdc caps. the classic boxes 25x15x5mm Marco ---- Messaggio originale---- Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com Data: 1-giu-2017 22.03 A: Ogg: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like capacitors heating up and changing its value. I can't think of any other component that will change with dissipation / heating. What type of capacitor are you using in the tank? Andy On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it wrote: > anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing > flowers? > > Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that > some effects in this area are present. > > I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected > simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. > The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output is > stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output > starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at 40 > and 50V. > The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts from > 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. > > I need a long weekend of meditation... > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 > A: > Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D > > yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward the > PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) > > the PS should > provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for 20A > @ 25°C (13A @ 100°C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try ;-) > > I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level > where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm²Ae: if I > am > not totally wrong B should be < 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the primary > > Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel is > running in its cage ;-) > > Thanks again for assistence > > Marco IK1HSS > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 > A: > Cc: > Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance of > 6.8 > ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't > think > you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more > realistic. > > As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very > wrong. > I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core Ae, > but > lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. > > V = 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax of > 0.1 > that suggests 85V RMS. > Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . > Before > a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload = 13 ohms > > Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be > customised > to > you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper > settings > foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. > Only > when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard circuit. > > When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) > unit > before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. > > Andy > > > > > > On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it > wrote: > > > Hi Andy... me again... > > > > I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick > > dinner and connected all, but... > > > > now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my > > readings/calculations: > > (see attached picture) > > again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc after > > an initial burst it start to fall down.. > > I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 > kHz > > with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the > > "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... > > > > mumble mumble > > > > I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at > > 180V! > > > > Marco, IK1HSS > > > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 > > A: > > Cc: > > Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there the > > values are different from your statement in the email. It shows > > primary 5 > > turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 ohms > > which > > is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to the > > ideal > > Rl > > > > The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high a > Q > > is > > used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the > region > > of > > 6. > > > > Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 > > Watts > > from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will end > > up > > with high voltage and critical tuning > > > > Andy G4JNT > > > > On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: > > > > > Yes. > > > As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that the > > peak > > > of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER than > > the peak > > > by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more > power > > (1.6 > > > times) than it was supposed to. > > > > > > So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine > > > component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of the > > > resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to > RMS- > > sine > > > ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a > > further > > > factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. > > > > > > Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux > in > a > > > magnetic code, V = 4.44.F.N.A.B > > > The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes about > > from > > > the same sort of sine to square transform. > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the same > > of > > >> Vrms before FETs make their work! > > >> > > >> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! > > >> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with the > > >> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) > > >> > > >> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to burnout > > the > > >> antenna hi > > >> > > >> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy > > >> > > >> 73 Marco, IK1HSS > > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > > >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > >> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 > > >> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", > > >> > > >> Cc: > > >> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > > >> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output > > >> transformer > > >> doesn't look right. > > >> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary of > > 12 > > >> turns...*" > > >> > > >> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. > > >> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 = 229V pk-pk > > >> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] = 81V RMS > > >> > > >> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms > (fund) > = > > >> 0.45VDC > > >> > > >> For 500 Watts out, Rload = 81 ^ 2 / 500 = 13 ohms > > >> > > >> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) = > 1.9: > > >> 1 so > > >> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 > > turns > > >> on > > >> the primary > > >> > > >> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary exactly > > as > > >> the > > >> square of the voltage. > > >> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: > > >> > > >> 12V DC = 12V pk-pk = 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi = 5.4V RMS > > (fundamental) > > >> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 = 2.2 Watts > > >> > > >> check using ratio of voltages, squared : > > >> > > >> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W = 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. > > >> QED > > >> > > >> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 = > 78 > > >> ohms > > >> > > >> At 40V DC == 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 = 4.1 watts > which > > is > > >> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, but > > the > > >> low > > >> power is in the area of what you measured.. > > >> > > >> Andy G4JNT > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > Hi Chris, > > >> > > > >> > I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I > had > > no > > >> > success.. > > >> > As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the > > >> > attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... > > >> > Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and > > >> > suggestion are welcome! > > >> > > > >> > 73, Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -----Original message----- > > >> > > > >> > From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it > > >> > Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 > > >> > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > > >> > Subject: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > > > >> > Hi LF, > > >> > > > >> > hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > > >> > My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > > >> > Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > of > > >> > Andy.. > > >> > Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > the > > >> > 180Vdc supply? > > >> > > > >> > Thank you > > >> > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is believed > to > > be > > >> > clean. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > >> > From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" > > >> > To: > > >> > Cc: > > >> > Bcc: > > >> > Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) > > >> > Subject: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > Hi LF, > > >> > > > >> > hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > > >> > My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > > >> > Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > of > > >> > Andy.. > > >> > Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > the > > >> > 180Vdc supply? > > >> > > > >> > Thank you > > >> > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is believed > to > > be > > >> > clean. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Fri Jun 2 14:42:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS,STOX_REPLY_TYPE,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v52Cgrkh013385 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 14:42:54 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dGlpT-0001ST-T0 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 13:37:23 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dGlpR-0001SK-J7 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 13:37:21 +0100 Received: from rgout0103.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk ([65.20.0.123] helo=rgout01.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dGlpM-0000W1-PT for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 13:37:19 +0100 X-OWM-Source-IP: 109.146.90.196 (GB) X-OWM-Env-Sender: alan.melia@btinternet.com X-Junkmail-Premium-Raw: score=8/50,refid=2.7.2:2017.5.13.91815:17:8.707,ip=,rules=NO_URI_FOUND, NO_CTA_URI_FOUND, NO_MESSAGE_ID, NO_URI_HTTPS, TO_MALFORMED Received: from gnat (109.146.90.196) by rgout01.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk (9.0.019.13-1) (authenticated as alan.melia@btinternet.com) id 58F62BE304DB9080 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 13:37:15 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=btcpcloud; t=1496407036; bh=GZ9ErnRvDqsot0ibEvx5rTr7BUoKWgcOE/ODZ7wD5tA=; h=Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:X-Mailer; b=hykBmxh9qNwhGG5HxA2uabbzut5OgsTWVccUY2CJ6SIZr0K2KFdnmmjWLRJitDsZRvvwnH1k+BtC4aFFNmEtbgi5M9oEzN9+0Yx42drnW8mZKsQ8k8z0OCy/kBZAPzTxLrPXBGJZjpl53mDRvZSshFrMz9nOOGnx9pRH3hwhCCs= Message-ID: From: "Alan Melia" To: References: <15c68b2d2ed.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 13:36:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Scan-Signature: 6bd672f829af6a22357e8edf5ae2addd Subject: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11854 Hi Marco I dont know where you are putting the caps but I am assuming they are passing a high RF corrent. I found that the old style (valve) high voltage caps in my Class E test rig changed capacitance permanently during and after a run (capacitance reduced). I assumed that the current was fusing the foil connection to the lead-out wires. When using "pulse rated" capacitors as used in SMPSUs I had no further capacitance change problems. The ones I have are RIFA PHE 428 2000v from RS Components. I think Farnell do a WIMA equivalent. Best Wishes Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:06 PM Subject: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... now my thoughts are even more confused.... Hi Andy, me again.... after a long night of meditation, I remembered I had a bounch of old style mica capacitators 1000pF 1000V.. I put 9 of them in parallel to get the closer value to the 8800pF I had before. Of course the resonance moved a bit and now is on 134.5 kHz with 3dB bandwidth of 9 kHz (Q=15 I know is a bit to high..) so carried out some tests on 134 kHz (of course on the dummyload) all without guard circuit 1st test xfmr 7T/19T (Ae197mm² R50 mat T38): 2Wout @10Vdc; 6,5 Wout@20Vdc; 13,7Wout@30Vdc stable.. @40Vdc after a quick peak the power slowly goes down till below 1W! 2nd test I had still on hands the previous xfmr 5T/12T (Ae197mm² same core as 1st test) so was worth to make a trial... same trend :-( for Vdc> 30V after a first peak... it goes down. I had another core available with different material (N30, Ae 154mm² R58) so I prepared a new xfmr with this core 7T/14T: 1,4Wout@10Vdc; 4,6Wout@20Vdc; 9,2Wout@30Vdc .... at 40Vdc a short burst with almost 15Wout and then down down down... :-(((((( I noticed a difference in comparison to your project: you connected the + and - rails to ground via 10nF and here I used 100nF caps could it explain this behaviour? 73 Marco ----Messaggio originale---- Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it Data: 1-giu-2017 22.20 A: Ogg: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... that was also my thought.. but they run at room temperature: the resonance is obtained with 4 polyesther 2200 pF 2000 Vdc caps. the classic boxes 25x15x5mm Marco ---- Messaggio originale---- Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com Data: 1-giu-2017 22.03 A: Ogg: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like capacitors heating up and changing its value. I can't think of any other component that will change with dissipation / heating. What type of capacitor are you using in the tank? Andy On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it wrote: > anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing > flowers? > > Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that > some effects in this area are present. > > I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected > simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. > The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output is > stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output > starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at 40 > and 50V. > The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts from > 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. > > I need a long weekend of meditation... > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 > A: > Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D > > yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward the > PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) > > the PS should > provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for 20A > @ 25°C (13A @ 100°C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try ;-) > > I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level > where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm²Ae: if I > am > not totally wrong B should be < 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the primary > > Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel is > running in its cage ;-) > > Thanks again for assistence > > Marco IK1HSS > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 > A: > Cc: > Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance of > 6.8 > ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't > think > you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more > realistic. > > As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very > wrong. > I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core Ae, > but > lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. > > V = 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax of > 0.1 > that suggests 85V RMS. > Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . > Before > a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload = 13 ohms > > Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be > customised > to > you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper > settings > foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. > Only > when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard circuit. > > When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) > unit > before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. > > Andy > > > > > > On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it > wrote: > > > Hi Andy... me again... > > > > I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick > > dinner and connected all, but... > > > > now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my > > readings/calculations: > > (see attached picture) > > again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc after > > an initial burst it start to fall down.. > > I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 > kHz > > with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the > > "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... > > > > mumble mumble > > > > I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at > > 180V! > > > > Marco, IK1HSS > > > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 > > A: > > Cc: > > Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there the > > values are different from your statement in the email. It shows > > primary 5 > > turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 ohms > > which > > is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to the > > ideal > > Rl > > > > The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high a > Q > > is > > used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the > region > > of > > 6. > > > > Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 > > Watts > > from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will end > > up > > with high voltage and critical tuning > > > > Andy G4JNT > > > > On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: > > > > > Yes. > > > As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that the > > peak > > > of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER than > > the peak > > > by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more > power > > (1.6 > > > times) than it was supposed to. > > > > > > So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine > > > component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of the > > > resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to > RMS- > > sine > > > ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a > > further > > > factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. > > > > > > Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux > in > a > > > magnetic code, V = 4.44.F.N.A.B > > > The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes about > > from > > > the same sort of sine to square transform. > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the same > > of > > >> Vrms before FETs make their work! > > >> > > >> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! > > >> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with the > > >> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) > > >> > > >> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to burnout > > the > > >> antenna hi > > >> > > >> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy > > >> > > >> 73 Marco, IK1HSS > > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > > >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > >> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 > > >> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", > > >> > > >> Cc: > > >> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > > >> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output > > >> transformer > > >> doesn't look right. > > >> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary of > > 12 > > >> turns...*" > > >> > > >> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. > > >> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 = 229V pk-pk > > >> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] = 81V RMS > > >> > > >> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms > (fund) > = > > >> 0.45VDC > > >> > > >> For 500 Watts out, Rload = 81 ^ 2 / 500 = 13 ohms > > >> > > >> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) = > 1.9: > > >> 1 so > > >> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 > > turns > > >> on > > >> the primary > > >> > > >> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary exactly > > as > > >> the > > >> square of the voltage. > > >> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: > > >> > > >> 12V DC = 12V pk-pk = 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi = 5.4V RMS > > (fundamental) > > >> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 = 2.2 Watts > > >> > > >> check using ratio of voltages, squared : > > >> > > >> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W = 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. > > >> QED > > >> > > >> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 = > 78 > > >> ohms > > >> > > >> At 40V DC == 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 = 4.1 watts > which > > is > > >> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, but > > the > > >> low > > >> power is in the area of what you measured.. > > >> > > >> Andy G4JNT > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > Hi Chris, > > >> > > > >> > I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I > had > > no > > >> > success.. > > >> > As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the > > >> > attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... > > >> > Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and > > >> > suggestion are welcome! > > >> > > > >> > 73, Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -----Original message----- > > >> > > > >> > From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it > > >> > Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 > > >> > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > > >> > Subject: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > > > >> > Hi LF, > > >> > > > >> > hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > > >> > My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > > >> > Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > of > > >> > Andy.. > > >> > Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > the > > >> > 180Vdc supply? > > >> > > > >> > Thank you > > >> > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is believed > to > > be > > >> > clean. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > >> > From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" > > >> > To: > > >> > Cc: > > >> > Bcc: > > >> > Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) > > >> > Subject: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > Hi LF, > > >> > > > >> > hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > > >> > My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > > >> > Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > of > > >> > Andy.. > > >> > Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > the > > >> > 180Vdc supply? > > >> > > > >> > Thank you > > >> > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is believed > to > > be > > >> > clean. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Fri Jun 2 15:07:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v52D7Mtd013465 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 15:07:23 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dGmBb-0001dU-K8 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 14:00:15 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dGmBY-0001dL-O4 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 14:00:12 +0100 Received: from smtp3web.tin.it ([212.216.176.237]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dGmBV-0000dD-6E for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 14:00:11 +0100 Received: from feu11 (10.192.64.21) by smtp3web.tin.it (8.6.060.43) id 583FEE8C031FF2AD for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 15:00:07 +0200 Received: from (80.182.160.35) by wmlighttin.pc.tim.it; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 15:00:07 +0200 Message-ID: <15c68e43ee0.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 15:00:07 +0200 (CEST) From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 80.182.160.35 X-Scan-Signature: 956413284a34c748fa4125c5c7fa4843 Subject: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lipkowski.org id v52D7Mtd013465 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11855 Hi Alan, and thanks for joining :-) it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of "high currents".. The PA is an half bridge like Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these problem trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W).. Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested just in case my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. 73 Marco ----Messaggio originale---- Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com Data: 2-giu-2017 14.36 A: Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Hi Marco I dont know where you are putting the caps but I am assuming they are passing a high RF corrent. I found that the old style (valve) high voltage caps in my Class E test rig changed capacitance permanently during and after a run (capacitance reduced). I assumed that the current was fusing the foil connection to the lead-out wires. When using "pulse rated" capacitors as used in SMPSUs I had no further capacitance change problems. The ones I have are RIFA PHE 428 2000v from RS Components. I think Farnell do a WIMA equivalent. Best Wishes Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:06 PM Subject: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... now my thoughts are even more confused.... Hi Andy, me again.... after a long night of meditation, I remembered I had a bounch of old style mica capacitators 1000pF 1000V.. I put 9 of them in parallel to get the closer value to the 8800pF I had before. Of course the resonance moved a bit and now is on 134.5 kHz with 3dB bandwidth of 9 kHz (Q=15 I know is a bit to high..) so carried out some tests on 134 kHz (of course on the dummyload) all without guard circuit 1st test xfmr 7T/19T (Ae197mm² R50 mat T38): 2Wout @10Vdc; 6,5 Wout@20Vdc; 13,7Wout@30Vdc stable.. @40Vdc after a quick peak the power slowly goes down till below 1W! 2nd test I had still on hands the previous xfmr 5T/12T (Ae197mm² same core as 1st test) so was worth to make a trial... same trend :-( for Vdc> 30V after a first peak... it goes down. I had another core available with different material (N30, Ae 154mm² R58) so I prepared a new xfmr with this core 7T/14T: 1,4Wout@10Vdc; 4,6Wout@20Vdc; 9,2Wout@30Vdc .... at 40Vdc a short burst with almost 15Wout and then down down down... :-(((((( I noticed a difference in comparison to your project: you connected the + and - rails to ground via 10nF and here I used 100nF caps could it explain this behaviour? 73 Marco ----Messaggio originale---- Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it Data: 1-giu-2017 22.20 A: Ogg: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... that was also my thought.. but they run at room temperature: the resonance is obtained with 4 polyesther 2200 pF 2000 Vdc caps. the classic boxes 25x15x5mm Marco ---- Messaggio originale---- Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com Data: 1-giu-2017 22.03 A: Ogg: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like capacitors heating up and changing its value. I can't think of any other component that will change with dissipation / heating. What type of capacitor are you using in the tank? Andy On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it wrote: > anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing > flowers? > > Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that > some effects in this area are present. > > I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected > simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. > The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output is > stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output > starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at 40 > and 50V. > The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts from > 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. > > I need a long weekend of meditation... > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 > A: > Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D > > yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward the > PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) > > the PS should > provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for 20A > @ 25°C (13A @ 100°C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try ;-) > > I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level > where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm²Ae: if I > am > not totally wrong B should be < 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the primary > > Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel is > running in its cage ;-) > > Thanks again for assistence > > Marco IK1HSS > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 > A: > Cc: > Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance of > 6.8 > ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't > think > you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more > realistic. > > As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very > wrong. > I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core Ae, > but > lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. > > V = 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax of > 0.1 > that suggests 85V RMS. > Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . > Before > a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload = 13 ohms > > Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be > customised > to > you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper > settings > foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. > Only > when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard circuit. > > When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) > unit > before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. > > Andy > > > > > > On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it > wrote: > > > Hi Andy... me again... > > > > I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick > > dinner and connected all, but... > > > > now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my > > readings/calculations: > > (see attached picture) > > again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc after > > an initial burst it start to fall down.. > > I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 > kHz > > with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the > > "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... > > > > mumble mumble > > > > I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at > > 180V! > > > > Marco, IK1HSS > > > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 > > A: > > Cc: > > Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there the > > values are different from your statement in the email. It shows > > primary 5 > > turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 ohms > > which > > is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to the > > ideal > > Rl > > > > The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high a > Q > > is > > used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the > region > > of > > 6. > > > > Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 > > Watts > > from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will end > > up > > with high voltage and critical tuning > > > > Andy G4JNT > > > > On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: > > > > > Yes. > > > As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that the > > peak > > > of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER than > > the peak > > > by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more > power > > (1.6 > > > times) than it was supposed to. > > > > > > So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine > > > component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of the > > > resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to > RMS- > > sine > > > ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a > > further > > > factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. > > > > > > Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux > in > a > > > magnetic code, V = 4.44.F.N.A.B > > > The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes about > > from > > > the same sort of sine to square transform. > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the same > > of > > >> Vrms before FETs make their work! > > >> > > >> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! > > >> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with the > > >> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) > > >> > > >> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to burnout > > the > > >> antenna hi > > >> > > >> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy > > >> > > >> 73 Marco, IK1HSS > > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > > >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > >> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 > > >> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", > > >> > > >> Cc: > > >> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > > >> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output > > >> transformer > > >> doesn't look right. > > >> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary of > > 12 > > >> turns...*" > > >> > > >> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. > > >> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 = 229V pk-pk > > >> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] = 81V RMS > > >> > > >> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms > (fund) > = > > >> 0.45VDC > > >> > > >> For 500 Watts out, Rload = 81 ^ 2 / 500 = 13 ohms > > >> > > >> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) = > 1.9: > > >> 1 so > > >> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 > > turns > > >> on > > >> the primary > > >> > > >> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary exactly > > as > > >> the > > >> square of the voltage. > > >> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: > > >> > > >> 12V DC = 12V pk-pk = 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi = 5.4V RMS > > (fundamental) > > >> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 = 2.2 Watts > > >> > > >> check using ratio of voltages, squared : > > >> > > >> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W = 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. > > >> QED > > >> > > >> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 = > 78 > > >> ohms > > >> > > >> At 40V DC == 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 = 4.1 watts > which > > is > > >> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, but > > the > > >> low > > >> power is in the area of what you measured.. > > >> > > >> Andy G4JNT > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > Hi Chris, > > >> > > > >> > I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I > had > > no > > >> > success.. > > >> > As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the > > >> > attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... > > >> > Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and > > >> > suggestion are welcome! > > >> > > > >> > 73, Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -----Original message----- > > >> > > > >> > From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it > > >> > Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 > > >> > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > > >> > Subject: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > > > >> > Hi LF, > > >> > > > >> > hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > > >> > My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > > >> > Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > of > > >> > Andy.. > > >> > Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > the > > >> > 180Vdc supply? > > >> > > > >> > Thank you > > >> > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is believed > to > > be > > >> > clean. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > >> > From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" > > >> > To: > > >> > Cc: > > >> > Bcc: > > >> > Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) > > >> > Subject: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > Hi LF, > > >> > > > >> > hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > > >> > My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > > >> > Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > of > > >> > Andy.. > > >> > Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > the > > >> > 180Vdc supply? > > >> > > > >> > Thank you > > >> > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is believed > to > > be > > >> > clean. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Fri Jun 2 15:20:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS, T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v52DKekL013559 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 15:20:41 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dGmPl-0001mH-Li for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 14:14:53 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dGmPK-0001lL-6V for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 14:14:26 +0100 Received: from mail-wr0-x229.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c0c::229]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dGmPF-0000if-Nu for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 14:14:24 +0100 Received: by mail-wr0-x229.google.com with SMTP id v104so6810408wrb.0 for ; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 06:14:21 -0700 (PDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:date:message-id:to:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=LwWKLWV+FKy8VGVINRyn/W4L9iNRJI5RggYEnCR1I8I=; b=Oi/kdGXwtC/gkwqQZubDpgAraYdZw0QM1P1U+/Jd2Kz8asKgbO/Qb5uXjZ0ak4xpwM 8MXJDbTUOGOUTBbyvp57XN9e2XGkONcvEsw6HLoYSBOY0yENyCmb0CKDzj7FIW5s8+l5 PQEBSm6rwmvg2fHY4vzJwJWZyUzoEXJHHw9hOjSRcgFc0XHQs1MzqiijZuqFUlFfF8LO RvFXqNqS8trGKHZzPIzHCWZ87YNbrbf1lxczEhXCmh3Y+AawEBgDoAm1ZZuiBF0OXa/2 mUxeUN/LnrFS6KIOMcw7QOQrqzvgV4S9DFpzqab7pF0VF7qXOKiwch+dBdzr6ZmtoiJt IJMQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:date:message-id:to:subject:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LwWKLWV+FKy8VGVINRyn/W4L9iNRJI5RggYEnCR1I8I=; b=O9Ag4ozN4SB8boWuS9g1HFwPEGNdy9TxEnJUZfAGEPgOQpJC80ghNPDtGvEXYeFb/t 7EOKuo+6ICGs3A3mRfy7qkBjF9Bb6DK+OkiqAUAdwPzxAu7S0HvDem8Zoka+nIFboh31 ZUygZMVmmsSBlAt2UHk1/NqXYM3aXfRtT7g3YpkAgTKb5o93INyjMoaPDlw+UmbNq/zf mKfbcTB9iAw6mRKrHctAlBS57U9TC/tMxBEcKuWCk8pvSv+pAMR/iGbFA48gAwopwV01 SYvfyJ6u1Si3a/sQRulCvQ4LnjiothDB0o+avdgm4yJfIZY3DQKJ7g+95AQyMU3gzCmT SY/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcCgrLaO0kRXKafLkFR81exRJn/DhVppSn7AiYVvOnjIKWR2NPRW VzxTV42QT/74+XpM X-Received: by 10.223.135.90 with SMTP id 26mr4686749wrz.199.1496409260497; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 06:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OfficeWin7.lan (82-70-254-222.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk. [82.70.254.222]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j126sm2666928wmd.29.2017.06.02.06.14.19 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 02 Jun 2017 06:14:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Wilson X-Google-Original-From: Chris Wilson Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 14:14:18 +0100 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <628725908.20170602141418@gmail.com> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: <15c68e43ee0.marcocadeddu@tin.it> References: <15c68e43ee0.marcocadeddu@tin.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scan-Signature: 33d261536bb1467bb13d5764461d5ec4 Subject: Re: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11856 Hello Marco, My loading coil drifts as it warms up, but that's only when a kW or so is run, not at low power. But I think you are testing into a dummy load? I also had a poor drain waveform on one side of my push pull Class "D", that was only cured by changing one of the 2 FET's (that tested fine out of circuit). We "microwavers" are old school now that people are moving to DC toggled every hour or so ;) Friday, June 2, 2017, 2:00:07 PM, you wrote: > Hi Alan, > and thanks for joining :-) > it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of "high > currents".. > The PA is an half bridge like > Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these problem > trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W).. > Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested just in case > my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. > 73 Marco -- Best regards, Chris mailto:dead_fets@gmail.com From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Fri Jun 2 15:55:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v52DttpZ013645 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 15:55:57 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dGmzW-0001zJ-GZ for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 14:51:50 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dGmzW-0001zA-0E for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 14:51:50 +0100 Received: from smtp2web.tin.it ([212.216.176.236]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dGmzT-0000sf-7m for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 14:51:48 +0100 Received: from feu4 (10.192.64.14) by smtp2web.tin.it (8.6.060.43) id 5822EBD203AEF287 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 15:51:45 +0200 Received: from (80.182.160.35) by wmlighttin.pc.tim.it; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 15:51:45 +0200 Message-ID: <15c691384e7.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 15:51:45 +0200 (CEST) From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 80.182.160.35 X-Scan-Signature: 75bd9e83b9a4dd6aff3296cebc5bb885 Subject: R: Re: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11857 Hello Chris, yes I'm testing into a dummy load and getting troubles trepassing the 15kmW (thousend of mW) limit!!! I drive with a reasonable waveform both the qrp TX and medium power TX (and now the halfbridge tx) with an IXDD614 chip. Will resist still in this microwaves area waiting that the oter folks go to DC ;-))) CU Marco ----Messaggio originale---- Da: dead.fets@gmail.com Data: 2-giu-2017 15.14 A: Ogg: Re: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Hello Marco, My loading coil drifts as it warms up, but that's only when a kW or so is run, not at low power. But I think you are testing into a dummy load? I also had a poor drain waveform on one side of my push pull Class "D", that was only cured by changing one of the 2 FET's (that tested fine out of circuit). We "microwavers" are old school now that people are moving to DC toggled every hour or so ;) Friday, June 2, 2017, 2:00:07 PM, you wrote: > Hi Alan, > and thanks for joining :-) > it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of "high > currents".. > The PA is an half bridge like > Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these problem > trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W).. > Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested just in case > my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. > 73 Marco -- Best regards, Chris mailto:dead_fets@gmail.com From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Fri Jun 2 16:04:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS,STOX_REPLY_TYPE,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v52E4rsV013720 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 16:04:54 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dGn7M-000284-Kv for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 14:59:56 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dGn7M-00027v-1U for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 14:59:56 +0100 Received: from rgout0407.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk ([65.20.0.220] helo=rgout04.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dGn7I-0000wE-Ln for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 14:59:54 +0100 X-OWM-Source-IP: 109.146.90.196 (GB) X-OWM-Env-Sender: alan.melia@btinternet.com X-Junkmail-Premium-Raw: score=8/50,refid=2.7.2:2017.5.13.91815:17:8.707,ip=,rules=NO_URI_FOUND, NO_CTA_URI_FOUND, NO_MESSAGE_ID, NO_URI_HTTPS, TO_MALFORMED Received: from gnat (109.146.90.196) by rgout04.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk (9.0.019.13-1) (authenticated as alan.melia@btinternet.com) id 58482DA212BC8C35 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 14:59:52 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=btcpcloud; t=1496411992; bh=qVuvSGMucKFs8GBeSInrzmhk/SlhhR6Yf/D5MRTtdrE=; h=Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:X-Mailer; b=MIgxebIaYEr7lIWAPlYOc+5l4RJ5NWKIxxhhd+BE+SjOYlfZ6HMK8nePNSRp35mrh6/2kPwpzvKXWuFn7vO77r2o7I9YITXnO4I+TyMXmzfQ3Ly0T3+mzGT8naZlARtVa7+AuXn24skQ22V0AnNJL1ge1c322wgg68NdY3EE98c= Message-ID: <8FE427C4D4C240AF980665D826BBCCA8@gnat> From: "Alan Melia" To: References: <15c68e43ee0.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 14:58:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Scan-Signature: f86b01274a3aa033fc5f9c1fdb5346fc Subject: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11858 Hi Marco, I may well be wrong I was experimenting with 150W at 35V I measured 12 to 15A through the capacitors (from memory) .......the confirmation is that the change is permanent. I dont remember seeing any heating effects. Single ended Class E may be considerably different to H-bridge. The currents a lower power will be less, about 1.5A or so(??) I am not sure it that would produce damage, but you would certainly see it as the power increased. Good Luck with it Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 2:00 PM Subject: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Hi Alan, and thanks for joining :-) it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of "high currents".. The PA is an half bridge like Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these problem trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W).. Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested just in case my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. 73 Marco ----Messaggio originale---- Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com Data: 2-giu-2017 14.36 A: Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Hi Marco I dont know where you are putting the caps but I am assuming they are passing a high RF corrent. I found that the old style (valve) high voltage caps in my Class E test rig changed capacitance permanently during and after a run (capacitance reduced). I assumed that the current was fusing the foil connection to the lead-out wires. When using "pulse rated" capacitors as used in SMPSUs I had no further capacitance change problems. The ones I have are RIFA PHE 428 2000v from RS Components. I think Farnell do a WIMA equivalent. Best Wishes Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:06 PM Subject: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... now my thoughts are even more confused.... Hi Andy, me again.... after a long night of meditation, I remembered I had a bounch of old style mica capacitators 1000pF 1000V.. I put 9 of them in parallel to get the closer value to the 8800pF I had before. Of course the resonance moved a bit and now is on 134.5 kHz with 3dB bandwidth of 9 kHz (Q=15 I know is a bit to high..) so carried out some tests on 134 kHz (of course on the dummyload) all without guard circuit 1st test xfmr 7T/19T (Ae197mm² R50 mat T38): 2Wout @10Vdc; 6,5 Wout@20Vdc; 13,7Wout@30Vdc stable.. @40Vdc after a quick peak the power slowly goes down till below 1W! 2nd test I had still on hands the previous xfmr 5T/12T (Ae197mm² same core as 1st test) so was worth to make a trial... same trend :-( for Vdc> 30V after a first peak... it goes down. I had another core available with different material (N30, Ae 154mm² R58) so I prepared a new xfmr with this core 7T/14T: 1,4Wout@10Vdc; 4,6Wout@20Vdc; 9,2Wout@30Vdc .... at 40Vdc a short burst with almost 15Wout and then down down down... :-(((((( I noticed a difference in comparison to your project: you connected the + and - rails to ground via 10nF and here I used 100nF caps could it explain this behaviour? 73 Marco ----Messaggio originale---- Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it Data: 1-giu-2017 22.20 A: Ogg: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... that was also my thought.. but they run at room temperature: the resonance is obtained with 4 polyesther 2200 pF 2000 Vdc caps. the classic boxes 25x15x5mm Marco ---- Messaggio originale---- Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com Data: 1-giu-2017 22.03 A: Ogg: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like capacitors heating up and changing its value. I can't think of any other component that will change with dissipation / heating. What type of capacitor are you using in the tank? Andy On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it wrote: > anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing > flowers? > > Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that > some effects in this area are present. > > I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected > simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. > The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output is > stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output > starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at 40 > and 50V. > The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts from > 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. > > I need a long weekend of meditation... > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 > A: > Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D > > yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward the > PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) > > the PS should > provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for 20A > @ 25°C (13A @ 100°C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try ;-) > > I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level > where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm²Ae: if I > am > not totally wrong B should be < 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the primary > > Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel is > running in its cage ;-) > > Thanks again for assistence > > Marco IK1HSS > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 > A: > Cc: > Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance of > 6.8 > ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't > think > you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more > realistic. > > As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very > wrong. > I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core Ae, > but > lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. > > V = 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax of > 0.1 > that suggests 85V RMS. > Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . > Before > a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload = 13 ohms > > Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be > customised > to > you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper > settings > foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. > Only > when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard circuit. > > When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) > unit > before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. > > Andy > > > > > > On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it > wrote: > > > Hi Andy... me again... > > > > I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick > > dinner and connected all, but... > > > > now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my > > readings/calculations: > > (see attached picture) > > again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc after > > an initial burst it start to fall down.. > > I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 > kHz > > with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the > > "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... > > > > mumble mumble > > > > I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at > > 180V! > > > > Marco, IK1HSS > > > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 > > A: > > Cc: > > Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there the > > values are different from your statement in the email. It shows > > primary 5 > > turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 ohms > > which > > is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to the > > ideal > > Rl > > > > The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high a > Q > > is > > used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the > region > > of > > 6. > > > > Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 > > Watts > > from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will end > > up > > with high voltage and critical tuning > > > > Andy G4JNT > > > > On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: > > > > > Yes. > > > As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that the > > peak > > > of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER than > > the peak > > > by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more > power > > (1.6 > > > times) than it was supposed to. > > > > > > So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine > > > component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of the > > > resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to > RMS- > > sine > > > ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a > > further > > > factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. > > > > > > Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux > in > a > > > magnetic code, V = 4.44.F.N.A.B > > > The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes about > > from > > > the same sort of sine to square transform. > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the same > > of > > >> Vrms before FETs make their work! > > >> > > >> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! > > >> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with the > > >> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) > > >> > > >> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to burnout > > the > > >> antenna hi > > >> > > >> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy > > >> > > >> 73 Marco, IK1HSS > > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > > >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > >> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 > > >> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", > > >> > > >> Cc: > > >> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > > >> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output > > >> transformer > > >> doesn't look right. > > >> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary of > > 12 > > >> turns...*" > > >> > > >> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. > > >> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 = 229V pk-pk > > >> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] = 81V RMS > > >> > > >> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms > (fund) > = > > >> 0.45VDC > > >> > > >> For 500 Watts out, Rload = 81 ^ 2 / 500 = 13 ohms > > >> > > >> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) = > 1.9: > > >> 1 so > > >> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 > > turns > > >> on > > >> the primary > > >> > > >> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary exactly > > as > > >> the > > >> square of the voltage. > > >> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: > > >> > > >> 12V DC = 12V pk-pk = 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi = 5.4V RMS > > (fundamental) > > >> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 = 2.2 Watts > > >> > > >> check using ratio of voltages, squared : > > >> > > >> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W = 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. > > >> QED > > >> > > >> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 = > 78 > > >> ohms > > >> > > >> At 40V DC == 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 = 4.1 watts > which > > is > > >> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, but > > the > > >> low > > >> power is in the area of what you measured.. > > >> > > >> Andy G4JNT > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > Hi Chris, > > >> > > > >> > I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I > had > > no > > >> > success.. > > >> > As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the > > >> > attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... > > >> > Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and > > >> > suggestion are welcome! > > >> > > > >> > 73, Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -----Original message----- > > >> > > > >> > From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it > > >> > Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 > > >> > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > > >> > Subject: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > > > >> > Hi LF, > > >> > > > >> > hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > > >> > My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > > >> > Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > of > > >> > Andy.. > > >> > Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > the > > >> > 180Vdc supply? > > >> > > > >> > Thank you > > >> > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is believed > to > > be > > >> > clean. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > >> > From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" > > >> > To: > > >> > Cc: > > >> > Bcc: > > >> > Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) > > >> > Subject: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > Hi LF, > > >> > > > >> > hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > > >> > My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > > >> > Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > of > > >> > Andy.. > > >> > Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > the > > >> > 180Vdc supply? > > >> > > > >> > Thank you > > >> > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is believed > to > > be > > >> > clean. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Fri Jun 2 16:26:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=3 Fuz1=3 Fuz2=3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v52EQAR6013777 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 16:26:12 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dGnSR-0002J0-QC for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 15:21:43 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dGnSR-0002Ir-6l for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 15:21:43 +0100 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dGnSO-000132-Ak for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 15:21:41 +0100 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BAB120BB1 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 16:21:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 3wfRGm72F3zyxY for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 16:21:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <59317470.9000303@posteo.de> Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2017 16:21:36 +0200 From: DK7FC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <15c691384e7.marcocadeddu@tin.it> In-Reply-To: <15c691384e7.marcocadeddu@tin.it> X-Scan-Signature: 77d68ebd44814a6def4d7158b7296e78 Subject: Re: R: Re: R: Re: R: Re: R: Re: R: Re: R: Re: R: Re: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11859 Hi Marco, Chris, Greetings from the lower end of the spectrum. It is quite silent down here, no contests, no band plans, not even complaints about key clicks!!!! (so relaxing), no pile ups, just the nature is speaking to me from time to time. And ZEVS is whispering but i can't hear it so far. I'm envious, up on the microwaves with just a few km of wavelength you have so much bandwidth, you can tune down by 1 kHz and more, whereas i would crash into the DC wall when attempting to try that. Also your coils are so small, the antenna current so high, the voltages so low, the ERP so high, and there are so many people daily. However my phase is so stable down here and so reproducable :-) So i can can talk very slowly or say just one word per day. And i'm diving below the switch mode power supply QRM and inbetween the mains hum :-) It all has its pros and cons. Anyway we have a nice hobby on the real low frequencies. I'll visit you again in the near future on 137 kHz. Maybe we can try something like JT9 or QRSS? 73, Stefan Am 02.06.2017 15:51, schrieb marcocadeddu@tin.it: > Hello Chris, > > yes I'm testing into a dummy load and getting troubles trepassing the > 15kmW (thousend of mW) limit!!! > I drive with a reasonable waveform both the qrp TX and > medium power TX (and now the halfbridge tx) with an IXDD614 chip. > > Will resist still in this microwaves area waiting that the oter folks > go to DC ;-))) > > CU Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: dead.fets@gmail.com > Data: 2-giu-2017 15.14 > A: > Ogg: Re: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Hello Marco, > > My loading coil drifts as it warms up, but that's only when a kW or so > is run, not at low power. But I think you are testing into a dummy > load? I also had a poor drain waveform on one side of my push pull > Class "D", that was only cured by changing one of the 2 FET's (that > tested fine out of circuit). We "microwavers" are old school now > that > people are moving to DC toggled every hour or so ;) > > > > Friday, June 2, 2017, 2:00:07 PM, you wrote: > > >> Hi Alan, >> > >> and thanks for joining :-) >> it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of "high >> currents".. >> The PA is an half bridge like >> Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these problem >> trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W).. >> Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested just in >> > case > >> my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. >> 73 Marco >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Fri Jun 2 16:36:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=3 Fuz1=3 Fuz2=3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v52EaKPW013799 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 16:36:21 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dGncp-0002SU-Sx for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 15:32:27 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dGncp-0002SL-JE for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 15:32:27 +0100 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dGncm-00017G-Ug for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 15:32:26 +0100 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5237820CF5 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 16:32:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 3wfRWC2klPz10HB for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 16:32:23 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <593176F7.2050407@posteo.de> Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2017 16:32:23 +0200 From: DK7FC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <592F348B.8060302@posteo.de> In-Reply-To: <592F348B.8060302@posteo.de> X-Scan-Signature: 290c8768709872f914a4ca71ad6bfe49 Subject: VLF: tomorrow morning... Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080706070608080809080505" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 11860 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080706070608080809080505 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi VLF, Another one for tomorrow morning: *f = 6470.100000 Hz Start time: 03.Jun.2017 3:00:00 UTC Symbol period: 24 s Characters: 7 CRC bits: 5 Coding 16K21A Duration: 7h, 8min, 48 sec Antenna current: ~ 440 mA* 73, Stefan --------------080706070608080809080505 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi VLF,

Another one for tomorrow morning:

f = 6470.100000 Hz
Start time: 03.Jun.2017 3:00:00 UTC
Symbol period: 24 s
Characters: 7
CRC bits: 5
Coding 16K21A
Duration: 7h, 8min, 48 sec
Antenna current: ~ 440 mA


73, Stefan --------------080706070608080809080505-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Fri Jun 2 16:40:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=3 Fuz1=3 Fuz2=3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v52Ee5IY013838 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 16:40:07 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dGngG-0002Xl-Cn for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 15:36:00 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dGngG-0002Xa-2r for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 15:36:00 +0100 Received: from smtp3web.tin.it ([212.216.176.237]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dGngD-00019R-6g for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 15:35:58 +0100 Received: from feu4 (10.192.64.14) by smtp3web.tin.it (8.6.060.43) id 583FEE8C032039A8 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 16:35:56 +0200 Received: from (80.182.160.35) by wmlighttin.pc.tim.it; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 16:35:56 +0200 Message-ID: <15c693bf695.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 16:35:56 +0200 (CEST) From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 80.182.160.35 X-Scan-Signature: 24b65a258fa7a3a87cfdaa03bb2f3176 Subject: R: Re: R: Re: R: Re: R: Re: R: Re: R: Re: R: Re: R: Re: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11861 Hi Stefan :-)))) soon Paul will ask for a bandplan: it is becoming so crowded there! sms from both sides of the ponds hihi I fear to think what people who live in the last floor of my building if they had to hear my coil singing nighttime ;-) Be careful Stefan, going dow before or later Captain Nemo will knock at your door ;-) Marco ----Messaggio originale---- Da: selberdenken@posteo.de Data: 2-giu-2017 16.21 A: Ogg: Re: R: Re: R: Re: R: Re: R: Re: R: Re: R: Re: R: Re: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Hi Marco, Chris, Greetings from the lower end of the spectrum. It is quite silent down here, no contests, no band plans, not even complaints about key clicks!!!! (so relaxing), no pile ups, just the nature is speaking to me from time to time. And ZEVS is whispering but i can't hear it so far. I'm envious, up on the microwaves with just a few km of wavelength you have so much bandwidth, you can tune down by 1 kHz and more, whereas i would crash into the DC wall when attempting to try that. Also your coils are so small, the antenna current so high, the voltages so low, the ERP so high, and there are so many people daily. However my phase is so stable down here and so reproducable :-) So i can can talk very slowly or say just one word per day. And i'm diving below the switch mode power supply QRM and inbetween the mains hum :-) It all has its pros and cons. Anyway we have a nice hobby on the real low frequencies. I'll visit you again in the near future on 137 kHz. Maybe we can try something like JT9 or QRSS? 73, Stefan Am 02.06.2017 15:51, schrieb marcocadeddu@tin.it: > Hello Chris, > > yes I'm testing into a dummy load and getting troubles trepassing the > 15kmW (thousend of mW) limit!!! > I drive with a reasonable waveform both the qrp TX and > medium power TX (and now the halfbridge tx) with an IXDD614 chip. > > Will resist still in this microwaves area waiting that the oter folks > go to DC ;-))) > > CU Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: dead.fets@gmail.com > Data: 2-giu-2017 15.14 > A: > Ogg: Re: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Hello Marco, > > My loading coil drifts as it warms up, but that's only when a kW or so > is run, not at low power. But I think you are testing into a dummy > load? I also had a poor drain waveform on one side of my push pull > Class "D", that was only cured by changing one of the 2 FET's (that > tested fine out of circuit). We "microwavers" are old school now > that > people are moving to DC toggled every hour or so ;) > > > > Friday, June 2, 2017, 2:00:07 PM, you wrote: > > >> Hi Alan, >> > >> and thanks for joining :-) >> it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of "high >> currents".. >> The PA is an half bridge like >> Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these problem >> trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W).. >> Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested just in >> > case > >> my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. >> 73 Marco >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sat Jun 3 16:12:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v53ECidN017800 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 16:12:46 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dH9dR-0006m3-0C for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 15:02:33 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dH9dB-0006lp-5D for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 15:02:17 +0100 Received: from smtp2web.tin.it ([212.216.176.236]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dH9d7-0004Vs-HU for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 15:02:15 +0100 Received: from feu20 (10.192.64.30) by smtp2web.tin.it (8.6.060.43) id 5822EBD203B22E6B for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 16:02:11 +0200 Received: from (80.182.160.35) by wmlighttin.pc.tim.it; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 16:02:11 +0200 Message-ID: <15c6e436e71.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 16:02:11 +0200 (CEST) From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 80.182.160.35 X-Scan-Signature: 42a2731f53a2e4b860285fcdd7a3607b Subject: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lipkowski.org id v53ECidN017800 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11862 Hi Alan, Andy, Chris, I replaced the caps in the output LC with WIMA FKP1, the 2 caps wich replaces the missing half of the bridge are still Cornell Dubillier 940C serie (rated at 9A @100kHz), so now all the caps are pulse rated but... I regret to admit it, nothing changed :-(( Power out increases from 10 to 30Vdc and at 40Vdc after a first pulse the power slowly decreases till a couple of watts.. Just to check another thing: being the coil of the guard circuit disconnected, I jointed the 2 coils together (they are wound on the same support) increasing so the inductance of the L (25T more). Of course I had to retune and now I need C in the range of 5000pF but this narrowed the 3dB bandwidth of the LC from abt 15kHz to abt 8kHz so is the Q increased! ... I should visit Decathlon and look for a fishing rod! your sincerely depressed IK1HSS ----Messaggio originale---- Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com Data: 2-giu-2017 15.58 A: Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Hi Marco, I may well be wrong I was experimenting with 150W at 35V I measured 12 to 15A through the capacitors (from memory) .......the confirmation is that the change is permanent. I dont remember seeing any heating effects. Single ended Class E may be considerably different to H-bridge. The currents a lower power will be less, about 1.5A or so (??) I am not sure it that would produce damage, but you would certainly see it as the power increased. Good Luck with it Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 2:00 PM Subject: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Hi Alan, and thanks for joining :-) it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of "high currents".. The PA is an half bridge like Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these problem trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W).. Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested just in case my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. 73 Marco ----Messaggio originale---- Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com Data: 2-giu-2017 14.36 A: Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Hi Marco I dont know where you are putting the caps but I am assuming they are passing a high RF corrent. I found that the old style (valve) high voltage caps in my Class E test rig changed capacitance permanently during and after a run (capacitance reduced). I assumed that the current was fusing the foil connection to the lead-out wires. When using "pulse rated" capacitors as used in SMPSUs I had no further capacitance change problems. The ones I have are RIFA PHE 428 2000v from RS Components. I think Farnell do a WIMA equivalent. Best Wishes Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:06 PM Subject: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... now my thoughts are even more confused.... Hi Andy, me again.... after a long night of meditation, I remembered I had a bounch of old style mica capacitators 1000pF 1000V.. I put 9 of them in parallel to get the closer value to the 8800pF I had before. Of course the resonance moved a bit and now is on 134.5 kHz with 3dB bandwidth of 9 kHz (Q=15 I know is a bit to high..) so carried out some tests on 134 kHz (of course on the dummyload) all without guard circuit 1st test xfmr 7T/19T (Ae197mm² R50 mat T38): 2Wout @10Vdc; 6,5 Wout@20Vdc; 13,7Wout@30Vdc stable.. @40Vdc after a quick peak the power slowly goes down till below 1W! 2nd test I had still on hands the previous xfmr 5T/12T (Ae197mm² same core as 1st test) so was worth to make a trial... same trend :-( for Vdc> 30V after a first peak... it goes down. I had another core available with different material (N30, Ae 154mm² R58) so I prepared a new xfmr with this core 7T/14T: 1,4Wout@10Vdc; 4,6Wout@20Vdc; 9,2Wout@30Vdc .... at 40Vdc a short burst with almost 15Wout and then down down down... :-(((((( I noticed a difference in comparison to your project: you connected the + and - rails to ground via 10nF and here I used 100nF caps could it explain this behaviour? 73 Marco ----Messaggio originale---- Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it Data: 1-giu-2017 22.20 A: Ogg: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... that was also my thought.. but they run at room temperature: the resonance is obtained with 4 polyesther 2200 pF 2000 Vdc caps. the classic boxes 25x15x5mm Marco ---- Messaggio originale---- Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com Data: 1-giu-2017 22.03 A: Ogg: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like capacitors heating up and changing its value. I can't think of any other component that will change with dissipation / heating. What type of capacitor are you using in the tank? Andy On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it wrote: > anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing > flowers? > > Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that > some effects in this area are present. > > I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected > simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. > The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output is > stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output > starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at 40 > and 50V. > The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts from > 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. > > I need a long weekend of meditation... > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 > A: > Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D > > yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward the > PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) > > the PS should > provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for 20A > @ 25°C (13A @ 100°C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try ;-) > > I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level > where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm²Ae: if I > am > not totally wrong B should be < 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the primary > > Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel is > running in its cage ;-) > > Thanks again for assistence > > Marco IK1HSS > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 > A: > Cc: > Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance of > 6.8 > ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't > think > you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more > realistic. > > As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very > wrong. > I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core Ae, > but > lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. > > V = 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax of > 0.1 > that suggests 85V RMS. > Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . > Before > a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload = 13 ohms > > Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be > customised > to > you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper > settings > foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. > Only > when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard circuit. > > When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) > unit > before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. > > Andy > > > > > > On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it > wrote: > > > Hi Andy... me again... > > > > I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick > > dinner and connected all, but... > > > > now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my > > readings/calculations: > > (see attached picture) > > again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc after > > an initial burst it start to fall down.. > > I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 > kHz > > with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the > > "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... > > > > mumble mumble > > > > I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at > > 180V! > > > > Marco, IK1HSS > > > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 > > A: > > Cc: > > Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there the > > values are different from your statement in the email. It shows > > primary 5 > > turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 ohms > > which > > is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to the > > ideal > > Rl > > > > The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high a > Q > > is > > used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the > region > > of > > 6. > > > > Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 > > Watts > > from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will end > > up > > with high voltage and critical tuning > > > > Andy G4JNT > > > > On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: > > > > > Yes. > > > As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that the > > peak > > > of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER than > > the peak > > > by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more > power > > (1.6 > > > times) than it was supposed to. > > > > > > So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine > > > component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of the > > > resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to > RMS- > > sine > > > ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a > > further > > > factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. > > > > > > Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux > in > a > > > magnetic code, V = 4.44.F.N.A.B > > > The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes about > > from > > > the same sort of sine to square transform. > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the same > > of > > >> Vrms before FETs make their work! > > >> > > >> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! > > >> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with the > > >> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) > > >> > > >> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to burnout > > the > > >> antenna hi > > >> > > >> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy > > >> > > >> 73 Marco, IK1HSS > > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > > >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > >> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 > > >> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", > > >> > > >> Cc: > > >> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > > >> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output > > >> transformer > > >> doesn't look right. > > >> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary of > > 12 > > >> turns...*" > > >> > > >> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. > > >> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 = 229V pk-pk > > >> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] = 81V RMS > > >> > > >> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms > (fund) > = > > >> 0.45VDC > > >> > > >> For 500 Watts out, Rload = 81 ^ 2 / 500 = 13 ohms > > >> > > >> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) = > 1.9: > > >> 1 so > > >> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 > > turns > > >> on > > >> the primary > > >> > > >> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary exactly > > as > > >> the > > >> square of the voltage. > > >> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: > > >> > > >> 12V DC = 12V pk-pk = 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi = 5.4V RMS > > (fundamental) > > >> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 = 2.2 Watts > > >> > > >> check using ratio of voltages, squared : > > >> > > >> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W = 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. > > >> QED > > >> > > >> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 = > 78 > > >> ohms > > >> > > >> At 40V DC == 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 = 4.1 watts > which > > is > > >> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, but > > the > > >> low > > >> power is in the area of what you measured.. > > >> > > >> Andy G4JNT > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > Hi Chris, > > >> > > > >> > I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I > had > > no > > >> > success.. > > >> > As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the > > >> > attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... > > >> > Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and > > >> > suggestion are welcome! > > >> > > > >> > 73, Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -----Original message----- > > >> > > > >> > From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it > > >> > Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 > > >> > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > > >> > Subject: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > > > >> > Hi LF, > > >> > > > >> > hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > > >> > My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > > >> > Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > of > > >> > Andy.. > > >> > Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > the > > >> > 180Vdc supply? > > >> > > > >> > Thank you > > >> > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is believed > to > > be > > >> > clean. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > >> > From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" > > >> > To: > > >> > Cc: > > >> > Bcc: > > >> > Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) > > >> > Subject: For today the FETs survived... > > >> > Hi LF, > > >> > > > >> > hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > > >> > My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > > >> > Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > of > > >> > Andy.. > > >> > Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > the > > >> > 180Vdc supply? > > >> > > > >> > Thank you > > >> > 73 Marco IK1HSS > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is believed > to > > be > > >> > clean. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sat Jun 3 16:23:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v53EN419017842 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 16:23:05 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dH9tY-0006uh-IH for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 15:19:12 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dH9tX-0006uY-K2 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 15:19:11 +0100 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dH9tU-0004cx-5P for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 15:19:10 +0100 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8C8420461 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 16:19:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 3wg39P6SDXzyqC for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 16:19:05 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5932C559.8080402@posteo.de> Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:19:05 +0200 From: DK7FC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <15c6e436e71.marcocadeddu@tin.it> In-Reply-To: <15c6e436e71.marcocadeddu@tin.it> X-Scan-Signature: e76796a7cdd5c967684a5a09aa90ab76 Subject: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11863 Hi Marco, If you like, i can help you. Just need a schematic to see what you want to do. Targer power, voltage, etc... 73, Stefan Am 03.06.2017 16:02, schrieb marcocadeddu@tin.it: > Hi Alan, Andy, Chris, > > I replaced the caps in the output LC with WIMA FKP1, the 2 caps wich > replaces the missing half of the bridge are still Cornell Dubillier > 940C serie (rated at 9A @100kHz), so now all the caps are pulse rated > but... > I regret to admit it, nothing changed :-(( > Power out increases from 10 to 30Vdc and at 40Vdc after a first pulse > the power slowly decreases till a couple of watts.. > > Just to check another thing: being the coil of the guard circuit > disconnected, I jointed the 2 coils together (they are wound on the > same support) increasing so the inductance of the L (25T more). Of > course I had to retune and now I need C in the range of 5000pF but this > narrowed the 3dB bandwidth of the LC from abt 15kHz to abt 8kHz so is > the Q increased! > > ... I should visit Decathlon and look for a fishing rod! > > your sincerely depressed IK1HSS > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > Data: 2-giu-2017 15.58 > A: > Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Hi Marco, I may well be wrong I was experimenting with 150W at 35V I > measured 12 to 15A through the capacitors (from memory) .......the > confirmation is that the change is permanent. I dont remember seeing > any > heating effects. Single ended Class E may be considerably different to > H-bridge. The currents a lower power will be less, about 1.5A or so > (??) I > am not sure it that would produce damage, but you would certainly see > it as > the power increased. > > Good Luck with it > Alan > G3NYK > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 2:00 PM > Subject: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > Hi Alan, > > and thanks for joining :-) > it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of "high > currents".. > The PA is an half bridge like > Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these problem > trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W).. > Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested just in case > my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. > 73 Marco > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > Data: 2-giu-2017 14.36 > A: > Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Hi Marco I dont know where you are putting the caps but I am assuming > they > are passing a high RF corrent. I found that the old style (valve) high > voltage caps in my Class E test rig changed capacitance permanently > during > and after a run (capacitance reduced). I assumed that the current was > fusing > the foil connection to the lead-out wires. When using "pulse rated" > capacitors as used in SMPSUs I had no further capacitance change > problems. > The ones I have are RIFA PHE 428 2000v from RS Components. I think > Farnell > do a WIMA equivalent. > > Best Wishes > Alan > G3NYK > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:06 PM > Subject: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > now my thoughts are even more confused.... > Hi Andy, me again.... > after a long night of meditation, I remembered I had a bounch of old > style mica capacitators 1000pF 1000V.. > I put > 9 of them in parallel to get the closer value to the 8800pF I had > before. > Of course the resonance moved a bit and now is on 134.5 kHz with 3dB > bandwidth of 9 kHz (Q=15 I know is a bit to high..) so carried out some > tests on 134 kHz (of course on the dummyload) all without guard circuit > 1st test xfmr 7T/19T (Ae197mm² R50 mat T38): 2Wout @10Vdc; 6,5 > Wout@20Vdc; 13,7Wout@30Vdc stable.. @40Vdc after a quick peak the power > slowly goes down till below 1W! > 2nd test I had still on hands the previous xfmr 5T/12T (Ae197mm² same > core as 1st test) so was worth to make a trial... same trend :-( for > Vdc> 30V after a first peak... it goes down. > I had another core available with different material (N30, Ae 154mm² > R58) so I prepared a new xfmr with this core 7T/14T: > 1,4Wout@10Vdc; 4,6Wout@20Vdc; 9,2Wout@30Vdc .... at 40Vdc a short burst > with almost 15Wout and then down down down... :-(((((( > > I noticed a difference in comparison to your project: you connected the > + and - rails to ground via 10nF and here I used 100nF caps could it > explain this behaviour? > > 73 Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.20 > A: > Ogg: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > that was also my thought.. but they run at room temperature: the > resonance is obtained with 4 polyesther 2200 pF 2000 Vdc caps. the > classic boxes 25x15x5mm > > Marco > > ---- > Messaggio originale---- > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.03 > A: > Ogg: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like > capacitors > heating up and changing its value. I can't think of any other > component > that will change with dissipation / heating. What type of capacitor > are > you using in the tank? > > Andy > > > On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it > wrote: > > >> anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing >> flowers? >> >> Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that >> some effects in this area are present. >> >> I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected >> simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. >> The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output >> > is > >> stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output >> starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at 40 >> and 50V. >> The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts from >> 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. >> >> I need a long weekend of meditation... >> 73 Marco IK1HSS >> >> >> ----Messaggio originale---- >> Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it >> Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 >> A: >> Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >> >> Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D >> >> yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward >> > the > >> PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) >> >> the PS should >> provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for >> > 20A > >> @ 25°C (13A @ 100°C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try ;-) >> >> I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level >> where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm²Ae: if I >> am >> not totally wrong B should be< 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the >> > primary > >> Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel is >> running in its cage ;-) >> >> Thanks again for assistence >> >> Marco IK1HSS >> >> >> >> ----Messaggio originale---- >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com >> Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 >> A: >> Cc: >> Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >> >> 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance of >> 6.8 >> ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't >> think >> you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more >> realistic. >> >> As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very >> wrong. >> I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core >> > Ae, > >> but >> lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. >> >> V = 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax >> > of > >> 0.1 >> that suggests 85V RMS. >> Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . >> Before >> a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload = 13 ohms >> >> Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be >> customised >> to >> you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper >> settings >> foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. >> Only >> when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard circuit. >> >> When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) >> unit >> before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. >> >> Andy >> >> >> >> >> >> On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it >> wrote: >> >> >>> Hi Andy... me again... >>> >>> I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick >>> dinner and connected all, but... >>> >>> now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my >>> readings/calculations: >>> (see attached picture) >>> again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc >>> > after > >>> an initial burst it start to fall down.. >>> I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 >>> >> kHz >> >>> with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the >>> "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... >>> >>> mumble mumble >>> >>> I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at >>> 180V! >>> >>> Marco, IK1HSS >>> >>> >>> ----Messaggio originale---- >>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com >>> Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 >>> A: >>> Cc: >>> Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >>> >>> I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there >>> > the > >>> values are different from your statement in the email. It shows >>> primary 5 >>> turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 >>> > ohms > >>> which >>> is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to >>> > the > >>> ideal >>> Rl >>> >>> The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high >>> > a > >> Q >> >>> is >>> used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the >>> >> region >> >>> of >>> 6. >>> >>> Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 >>> Watts >>> from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will >>> > end > >>> up >>> with high voltage and critical tuning >>> >>> Andy G4JNT >>> >>> On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Yes. >>>> As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that >>>> > the > >>> peak >>> >>>> of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER >>>> > than > >>> the peak >>> >>>> by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more >>>> >> power >> >>> (1.6 >>> >>>> times) than it was supposed to. >>>> >>>> So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine >>>> component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of >>>> > the > >>>> resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to >>>> >> RMS- >> >>> sine >>> >>>> ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a >>>> >>> further >>> >>>> factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. >>>> >>>> Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux >>>> >> in >> a >> >>>> magnetic code, V = 4.44.F.N.A.B >>>> The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes >>>> > about > >>> from >>> >>>> the same sort of sine to square transform. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it>>> > it> > >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the >>>>> > same > >>> of >>> >>>>> Vrms before FETs make their work! >>>>> >>>>> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! >>>>> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with >>>>> > the > >>>>> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) >>>>> >>>>> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to >>>>> > burnout > >>> the >>> >>>>> antenna hi >>>>> >>>>> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy >>>>> >>>>> 73 Marco, IK1HSS >>>>> ----Messaggio originale---- >>>>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com >>>>> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 >>>>> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", >>>>> >>>>> Cc: >>>>> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >>>>> >>>>> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output >>>>> transformer >>>>> doesn't look right. >>>>> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary >>>>> > of > >>> 12 >>> >>>>> turns...*" >>>>> >>>>> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. >>>>> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 = 229V pk-pk >>>>> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] = 81V RMS >>>>> >>>>> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms >>>>> >> (fund) >> = >> >>>>> 0.45VDC >>>>> >>>>> For 500 Watts out, Rload = 81 ^ 2 / 500 = 13 ohms >>>>> >>>>> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) = >>>>> >> 1.9: >> >>>>> 1 so >>>>> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 >>>>> >>> turns >>> >>>>> on >>>>> the primary >>>>> >>>>> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary >>>>> > exactly > >>> as >>> >>>>> the >>>>> square of the voltage. >>>>> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: >>>>> >>>>> 12V DC = 12V pk-pk = 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi = 5.4V RMS >>>>> >>> (fundamental) >>> >>>>> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 = 2.2 Watts >>>>> >>>>> check using ratio of voltages, squared : >>>>> >>>>> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W = 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. >>>>> QED >>>>> >>>>> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 = >>>>> >> 78 >> >>>>> ohms >>>>> >>>>> At 40V DC == 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 = 4.1 watts >>>>> >> which >> >>> is >>> >>>>> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, >>>>> > but > >>> the >>> >>>>> low >>>>> power is in the area of what you measured.. >>>>> >>>>> Andy G4JNT >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it>>>> > it> > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Chris, >>>>>> >>>>>> I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I >>>>>> >> had >> >>> no >>> >>>>>> success.. >>>>>> As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the >>>>>> attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... >>>>>> Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and >>>>>> suggestion are welcome! >>>>>> >>>>>> 73, Marco IK1HSS >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original message----- >>>>>> >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 >>>>>> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi LF, >>>>>> >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge >>>>>> >> of >> >>>>>> Andy.. >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to >>>>>> >> the >> >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is >>>>>> > believed > >> to >> >>> be >>> >>>>>> clean. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" >>>>>> To: >>>>>> Cc: >>>>>> Bcc: >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... >>>>>> Hi LF, >>>>>> >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge >>>>>> >> of >> >>>>>> Andy.. >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to >>>>>> >> the >> >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is >>>>>> > believed > >> to >> >>> be >>> >>>>>> clean. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sat Jun 3 16:49:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS, T_FREEMAIL_DOC_PDF autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v53EnhKP017889 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 16:49:44 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHAIZ-00075N-1o for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 15:45:03 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHAIW-00075C-KX for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 15:45:00 +0100 Received: from smtp2web.tin.it ([212.216.176.236]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHAIR-0004hk-W3 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 15:44:59 +0100 Received: from feu3 (10.192.64.13) by smtp2web.tin.it (8.6.060.43) id 5822EBD203B259A4 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 16:44:55 +0200 Received: from (80.182.160.35) by wmlighttin.pc.tim.it; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 16:44:55 +0200 Message-ID: <15c6e6a8ba3.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 16:44:55 +0200 (CEST) From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 80.182.160.35 X-Scan-Signature: b13818ff78198266bce34575c28df08e Subject: R: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_6673_15506691.1496501095340" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11864 ------=_Part_6673_15506691.1496501095340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stefan, and thank you :-) so you have too something to mumble while sending=20 VLF SMS ;-) There is nothing really new.. I started from an avalable=20 chassis with on board a PS giving 180Vdc (1200W) and assembled the=20 Andy's half bridge 700W switching PA and before give it the full power=20 I'm checking with lower DC supply. Attached you see the schematic with=20 some change at the moment.. The output xfmr has 7T/19T, the coil of the guard circuit is not=20 connected (now is in serie with L2) and the resonating caps now are=20 5x1000pF in parallel. The aim is finally with 180Vdc of supply have an output of 0,5=C3=B71kW=20 but.... as you probably red in the previous messages, from 10 to 30Vdc=20 the PA runs, at low power of course (up to 15W), and complies the=20 calculations; with supply between 30 and 50 Vdc the output go down to a=20 couple of W. I made several trials it the last days, changing the core of the xfmr,=20 the turn ratio, the kind of capacitators but nothing changes (or at=20 least the change are within a fraction of dB). that's the sad history Stefan... All thoughts and suggestions are welcome! (including go to fish ;-)) ) Marco ----Messaggio originale---- Da: selberdenken@posteo.de Data: 3-giu-2017 16.19 A: Ogg: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Hi Marco, If you like, i can help you. Just need a schematic to see what you=20 want=20 to do. Targer power, voltage, etc... 73, Stefan Am 03.06.2017 16:02, schrieb marcocadeddu@tin.it: > Hi Alan, Andy, Chris, > > I replaced the caps in the output LC with WIMA FKP1, the 2 caps wich > replaces the missing half of the bridge are still Cornell Dubillier > 940C serie (rated at 9A @100kHz), so now all the caps are pulse rated > but... > I regret to admit it, nothing changed :-(( > Power out increases from 10 to 30Vdc and at 40Vdc after a first pulse > the power slowly decreases till a couple of watts.. > > Just to check another thing: being the coil of the guard circuit > disconnected, I jointed the 2 coils together (they are wound on the > same support) increasing so the inductance of the L (25T more). Of > course I had to retune and now I need C in the range of 5000pF but=20 this > narrowed the 3dB bandwidth of the LC from abt 15kHz to abt 8kHz so is > the Q increased! > > ... I should visit Decathlon and look for a fishing rod! > > your sincerely depressed IK1HSS > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > Data: 2-giu-2017 15.58 > A: > Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Hi Marco, I may well be wrong I was experimenting with 150W at 35V I > measured 12 to 15A through the capacitors (from memory) .......the > confirmation is that the change is permanent. I dont remember seeing > any > heating effects. Single ended Class E may be considerably different=20 to > H-bridge. The currents a lower power will be less, about 1.5A or so > (??) I > am not sure it that would produce damage, but you would certainly see > it as > the power increased. > > Good Luck with it > Alan > G3NYK > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 2:00 PM > Subject: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > Hi Alan, > > and thanks for joining :-) > it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of "high > currents".. > The PA is an half bridge like > Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these problem > trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W).. > Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested just in=20 case > my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. > 73 Marco > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > Data: 2-giu-2017 14.36 > A: > Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Hi Marco I dont know where you are putting the caps but I am assuming > they > are passing a high RF corrent. I found that the old style (valve)=20 high > voltage caps in my Class E test rig changed capacitance permanently > during > and after a run (capacitance reduced). I assumed that the current was > fusing > the foil connection to the lead-out wires. When using "pulse rated" > capacitors as used in SMPSUs I had no further capacitance change > problems. > The ones I have are RIFA PHE 428 2000v from RS Components. I think > Farnell > do a WIMA equivalent. > > Best Wishes > Alan > G3NYK > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:06 PM > Subject: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > now my thoughts are even more confused.... > Hi Andy, me again.... > after a long night of meditation, I remembered I had a bounch of old > style mica capacitators 1000pF 1000V.. > I put > 9 of them in parallel to get the closer value to the 8800pF I had > before. > Of course the resonance moved a bit and now is on 134.5 kHz with 3dB > bandwidth of 9 kHz (Q=3D15 I know is a bit to high..) so carried out=20 some > tests on 134 kHz (of course on the dummyload) all without guard=20 circuit > 1st test xfmr 7T/19T (Ae197mm=C2=B2 R50 mat T38): 2Wout @10Vdc; 6,5 > Wout@20Vdc; 13,7Wout@30Vdc stable.. @40Vdc after a quick peak the=20 power > slowly goes down till below 1W! > 2nd test I had still on hands the previous xfmr 5T/12T (Ae197mm=C2=B2 sam= e > core as 1st test) so was worth to make a trial... same trend :-( for > Vdc> 30V after a first peak... it goes down. > I had another core available with different material (N30, Ae 154mm=C2=B2 > R58) so I prepared a new xfmr with this core 7T/14T: > 1,4Wout@10Vdc; 4,6Wout@20Vdc; 9,2Wout@30Vdc .... at 40Vdc a short=20 burst > with almost 15Wout and then down down down... :-(((((( > > I noticed a difference in comparison to your project: you connected=20 the > + and - rails to ground via 10nF and here I used 100nF caps could it > explain this behaviour? > > 73 Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.20 > A: > Ogg: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > that was also my thought.. but they run at room temperature: the > resonance is obtained with 4 polyesther 2200 pF 2000 Vdc caps. the > classic boxes 25x15x5mm > > Marco > > ---- > Messaggio originale---- > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.03 > A: > Ogg: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like > capacitors > heating up and changing its value. I can't think of any other > component > that will change with dissipation / heating. What type of capacitor > are > you using in the tank? > > Andy > > > On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it > wrote: > > =20 >> anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing >> flowers? >> >> Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that >> some effects in this area are present. >> >> I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected >> simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. >> The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output >> =20 > is > =20 >> stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output >> starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at=20 40 >> and 50V. >> The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts=20 from >> 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. >> >> I need a long weekend of meditation... >> 73 Marco IK1HSS >> >> >> ----Messaggio originale---- >> Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it >> Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 >> A: >> Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >> >> Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D >> >> yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward >> =20 > the > =20 >> PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) >> >> the PS should >> provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for >> =20 > 20A > =20 >> @ 25=C2=B0C (13A @ 100=C2=B0C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try = ;-) >> >> I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level >> where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm=C2=B2Ae: if = I >> am >> not totally wrong B should be< 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the >> =20 > primary > =20 >> Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel=20 is >> running in its cage ;-) >> >> Thanks again for assistence >> >> Marco IK1HSS >> >> >> >> ----Messaggio originale---- >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com >> Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 >> A: >> Cc: >> Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >> >> 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance=20 of >> 6.8 >> ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't >> think >> you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more >> realistic. >> >> As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very >> wrong. >> I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core >> =20 > Ae, > =20 >> but >> lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. >> >> V =3D 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax >> =20 > of > =20 >> 0.1 >> that suggests 85V RMS. >> Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . >> Before >> a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload =3D 13 ohms >> >> Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be >> customised >> to >> you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper >> settings >> foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. >> Only >> when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard=20 circuit. >> >> When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) >> unit >> before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. >> >> Andy >> >> >> >> >> >> On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it >> wrote: >> >> =20 >>> Hi Andy... me again... >>> >>> I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick >>> dinner and connected all, but... >>> >>> now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my >>> readings/calculations: >>> (see attached picture) >>> again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc >>> =20 > after > =20 >>> an initial burst it start to fall down.. >>> I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 >>> =20 >> kHz >> =20 >>> with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the >>> "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... >>> >>> mumble mumble >>> >>> I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at >>> 180V! >>> >>> Marco, IK1HSS >>> >>> >>> ----Messaggio originale---- >>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com >>> Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 >>> A: >>> Cc: >>> Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >>> >>> I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there >>> =20 > the > =20 >>> values are different from your statement in the email. It shows >>> primary 5 >>> turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 >>> =20 > ohms > =20 >>> which >>> is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to >>> =20 > the > =20 >>> ideal >>> Rl >>> >>> The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high >>> =20 > a > =20 >> Q >> =20 >>> is >>> used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the >>> =20 >> region >> =20 >>> of >>> 6. >>> >>> Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 >>> Watts >>> from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will >>> =20 > end > =20 >>> up >>> with high voltage and critical tuning >>> >>> Andy G4JNT >>> >>> On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: >>> >>> =20 >>>> Yes. >>>> As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that >>>> =20 > the > =20 >>> peak >>> =20 >>>> of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER >>>> =20 > than > =20 >>> the peak >>> =20 >>>> by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more >>>> =20 >> power >> =20 >>> (1.6 >>> =20 >>>> times) than it was supposed to. >>>> >>>> So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine >>>> component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of >>>> =20 > the > =20 >>>> resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to >>>> =20 >> RMS- >> =20 >>> sine >>> =20 >>>> ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a >>>> =20 >>> further >>> =20 >>>> factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. >>>> >>>> Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux >>>> =20 >> in >> a >> =20 >>>> magnetic code, V =3D 4.44.F.N.A.B >>>> The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes >>>> =20 > about > =20 >>> from >>> =20 >>>> the same sort of sine to square transform. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it>>> =20 > it> > =20 >>> wrote: >>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>>> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the >>>>> =20 > same > =20 >>> of >>> =20 >>>>> Vrms before FETs make their work! >>>>> >>>>> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! >>>>> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with >>>>> =20 > the > =20 >>>>> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) >>>>> >>>>> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to >>>>> =20 > burnout > =20 >>> the >>> =20 >>>>> antenna hi >>>>> >>>>> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy >>>>> >>>>> 73 Marco, IK1HSS >>>>> ----Messaggio originale---- >>>>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com >>>>> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 >>>>> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", >>>>> >>>>> Cc: >>>>> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >>>>> >>>>> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output >>>>> transformer >>>>> doesn't look right. >>>>> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary >>>>> =20 > of > =20 >>> 12 >>> =20 >>>>> turns...*" >>>>> >>>>> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. >>>>> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 =3D 229V pk-pk >>>>> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] =3D 81V RMS >>>>> >>>>> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms >>>>> =20 >> (fund) >> =3D >> =20 >>>>> 0.45VDC >>>>> >>>>> For 500 Watts out, Rload =3D 81 ^ 2 / 500 =3D 13 ohms >>>>> >>>>> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) =3D >>>>> =20 >> 1.9: >> =20 >>>>> 1 so >>>>> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 >>>>> =20 >>> turns >>> =20 >>>>> on >>>>> the primary >>>>> >>>>> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary >>>>> =20 > exactly > =20 >>> as >>> =20 >>>>> the >>>>> square of the voltage. >>>>> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: >>>>> >>>>> 12V DC =3D 12V pk-pk =3D 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi =3D 5.4V RMS >>>>> =20 >>> (fundamental) >>> =20 >>>>> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 =3D 2.2 Watts >>>>> >>>>> check using ratio of voltages, squared : >>>>> >>>>> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W =3D 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. >>>>> QED >>>>> >>>>> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 =3D >>>>> =20 >> 78 >> =20 >>>>> ohms >>>>> >>>>> At 40V DC =3D=3D 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 =3D 4.1 watts >>>>> =20 >> which >> =20 >>> is >>> =20 >>>>> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, >>>>> =20 > but > =20 >>> the >>> =20 >>>>> low >>>>> power is in the area of what you measured.. >>>>> >>>>> Andy G4JNT >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it>>>> =20 > it> > =20 >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> =20 >>>>>> Hi Chris, >>>>>> >>>>>> I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I >>>>>> =20 >> had >> =20 >>> no >>> =20 >>>>>> success.. >>>>>> As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the >>>>>> attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... >>>>>> Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and >>>>>> suggestion are welcome! >>>>>> >>>>>> 73, Marco IK1HSS >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original message----- >>>>>> >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 >>>>>> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi LF, >>>>>> >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge >>>>>> =20 >> of >> =20 >>>>>> Andy.. >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to >>>>>> =20 >> the >> =20 >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is >>>>>> =20 > believed > =20 >> to >> =20 >>> be >>> =20 >>>>>> clean. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" >>>>>> To: >>>>>> Cc: >>>>>> Bcc: >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... >>>>>> Hi LF, >>>>>> >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge >>>>>> =20 >> of >> =20 >>>>>> Andy.. >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to >>>>>> =20 >> the >> =20 >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. 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required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v53FQYo2018028 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 17:26:35 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHAsQ-0007Fe-KN for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:22:06 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHAsP-0007FV-33 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:22:05 +0100 Received: from mail-lf0-x236.google.com ([2a00:1450:4010:c07::236]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHAsK-0004oh-BC for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:22:03 +0100 Received: by mail-lf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id v20so22679487lfa.1 for ; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 08:22:00 -0700 (PDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=gGLbHE9fM99w60HzfyOEAtVAsKEOUmfXGIl/6LHAeDo=; b=NbgQKOW1z/6T9W40VTw6UAqIstJgwbVixetd2Ge0U1JIcZxxNwbs/pZnqr6u44ImVU U/Len8nYfT5XCCQDRVw+FhFFS8Y8BCX88Z21Ph1kLGulT7qqGITMppw/EXAjwBmgOHfV o3EJPeMHeIcVBV6b+PnS/Ec2KA+XaW9o/5GlpIjs9BWOz2cfPOS7nbxGmu+7okcd8rwT CITpljxCzbgIhxJVd0JPtnUsB+UE9CjfPyDzfhvdr6fZQZS3XXtzZL3Kiy71n+3QtXoN TUPK6hkD4o4KCYfiewZwIoJIr5dwMrAdIBGHVj5DX2pTH3J5BLK3kuLMTZa5NY0IYhBD 5sQw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=gGLbHE9fM99w60HzfyOEAtVAsKEOUmfXGIl/6LHAeDo=; b=oZvYLdt3EiL42T6OHBeN6/FHSnO6uqrBgRjEGR2PHtdCZHZdXhSkzABDkSNdlUDSm5 ELtsQsLPzq1aCmxYayCMGnWkwLDtkOe+F9GWJzAfeXizwa0ogv4vxkZeIL2UH8ZhgHcw ZCp8+57QTWmBT+zMSGxV/Cs6cnc5dwbOQe7XRWFofuGIXbVKZjyPmqnqpfsYj/suTOwp RL1NUOKTXTcZQyLt5UQibaoAullQ0b53EjXFk+ukurAxTxAEyoTR+Fj+XuQ+TTNzTyaV RyNvo3Ah+EXEvnR5wfXuXXMFXkyttlOJu9gPI8sVtTbG3q0F3bZom+l7YYrT2i/oqN5k LO3Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcCMBD3ANCRwVkq7uhmeW246/v6nIe87Kud1pwOvtndnGguT73ms yiTDByLdg3KjWhorPgvBdED7iF/AWv92 X-Received: by 10.46.88.65 with SMTP id x1mr3324752ljd.105.1496503318527; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 08:21:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.156.13 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 08:21:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <15c6e6a8ba3.marcocadeddu@tin.it> References: <15c6e6a8ba3.marcocadeddu@tin.it> From: Andy Talbot Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 16:21:57 +0100 Message-ID: To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Scan-Signature: 9c0a0bb205ef928befde15ddb05a6740 Subject: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403043882b4b4c5e705510fd472" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11865 --f403043882b4b4c5e705510fd472 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a famous quote by Sherlock Holmes that goes "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." You have shown by your substitutions that the drop-off in power cannot be the ferrite core or the the capacitors. So they now become "the impossible". What remains, however improbable, are the FETs, and something else. The FETs are well within their ratings and at low power are giving the expected output, so it is more than likely they are behaving properly so look for other improbables first There is something else that could become an "improbable". What are you using to measure the power output? And is it your ONLY means of measuring the RF level. Could this be failing at the higher RF? I have seen a diode detector do something similar as the reverse voltage across the diode reaches breakdown. Some small Schottky diodes can do this at surprisingly low voltages, so if you haven't checked their specification before use... If you use a power meter, is it designed for use this low in frequency? If not, the LF could be heating something. Check and see if the DC changes with the power fall-off. If DC power stays the same and indicated RF falls, that points very definitely to the sensor / detector. IF DC falls with the RF, it suggests FETS or something early on. If not FETS and not the RF measurement - there is even less left to look at - so consider other "improbables". There won't be many left by now. Co= uld there be some kind of feedback into the driver - unlikely but you're eliminating the impossibles one-by-one Andy G4JNT On 3 June 2017 at 15:44, marcocadeddu@tin.it wrote: > Hi Stefan, > > and thank you :-) so you have too something to mumble while sending > VLF SMS ;-) > There is nothing really new.. I started from an avalable > chassis with on board a PS giving 180Vdc (1200W) and assembled the > Andy's half bridge 700W switching PA and before give it the full power > I'm checking with lower DC supply. Attached you see the schematic with > some change at the moment.. > The output xfmr has 7T/19T, the coil of the guard circuit is not > connected (now is in serie with L2) and the resonating caps now are > 5x1000pF in parallel. > The aim is finally with 180Vdc of supply have an output of 0,5=C3=B71kW > but.... as you probably red in the previous messages, from 10 to 30Vdc > the PA runs, at low power of course (up to 15W), and complies the > calculations; with supply between 30 and 50 Vdc the output go down to a > couple of W. > I made several trials it the last days, changing the core of the xfmr, > the turn ratio, the kind of capacitators but nothing changes (or at > least the change are within a fraction of dB). > > that's the sad history Stefan... > All thoughts and suggestions are welcome! (including go to fish ;-)) ) > Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: selberdenken@posteo.de > Data: 3-giu-2017 16.19 > A: > Ogg: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Hi Marco, > > If you like, i can help you. Just need a schematic to see what you > want > to do. Targer power, voltage, etc... > > 73, Stefan > > Am 03.06.2017 16:02, schrieb marcocadeddu@tin.it: > > Hi Alan, Andy, Chris, > > > > I replaced the caps in the output LC with WIMA FKP1, the 2 caps wich > > replaces the missing half of the bridge are still Cornell Dubillier > > 940C serie (rated at 9A @100kHz), so now all the caps are pulse rated > > but... > > I regret to admit it, nothing changed :-(( > > Power out increases from 10 to 30Vdc and at 40Vdc after a first pulse > > the power slowly decreases till a couple of watts.. > > > > Just to check another thing: being the coil of the guard circuit > > disconnected, I jointed the 2 coils together (they are wound on the > > same support) increasing so the inductance of the L (25T more). Of > > course I had to retune and now I need C in the range of 5000pF but > this > > narrowed the 3dB bandwidth of the LC from abt 15kHz to abt 8kHz so is > > the Q increased! > > > > ... I should visit Decathlon and look for a fishing rod! > > > > your sincerely depressed IK1HSS > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > > Data: 2-giu-2017 15.58 > > A: > > Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > Hi Marco, I may well be wrong I was experimenting with 150W at 35V I > > measured 12 to 15A through the capacitors (from memory) .......the > > confirmation is that the change is permanent. I dont remember seeing > > any > > heating effects. Single ended Class E may be considerably different > to > > H-bridge. The currents a lower power will be less, about 1.5A or so > > (??) I > > am not sure it that would produce damage, but you would certainly see > > it as > > the power increased. > > > > Good Luck with it > > Alan > > G3NYK > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 2:00 PM > > Subject: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > > > Hi Alan, > > > > and thanks for joining :-) > > it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of "high > > currents".. > > The PA is an half bridge like > > Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these problem > > trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W).. > > Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested just in > case > > my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. > > 73 Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > > Data: 2-giu-2017 14.36 > > A: > > Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > Hi Marco I dont know where you are putting the caps but I am assuming > > they > > are passing a high RF corrent. I found that the old style (valve) > high > > voltage caps in my Class E test rig changed capacitance permanently > > during > > and after a run (capacitance reduced). I assumed that the current was > > fusing > > the foil connection to the lead-out wires. When using "pulse rated" > > capacitors as used in SMPSUs I had no further capacitance change > > problems. > > The ones I have are RIFA PHE 428 2000v from RS Components. I think > > Farnell > > do a WIMA equivalent. > > > > Best Wishes > > Alan > > G3NYK > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:06 PM > > Subject: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > > > now my thoughts are even more confused.... > > Hi Andy, me again.... > > after a long night of meditation, I remembered I had a bounch of old > > style mica capacitators 1000pF 1000V.. > > I put > > 9 of them in parallel to get the closer value to the 8800pF I had > > before. > > Of course the resonance moved a bit and now is on 134.5 kHz with 3dB > > bandwidth of 9 kHz (Q=3D15 I know is a bit to high..) so carried out > some > > tests on 134 kHz (of course on the dummyload) all without guard > circuit > > 1st test xfmr 7T/19T (Ae197mm=C2=B2 R50 mat T38): 2Wout @10Vdc; 6,5 > > Wout@20Vdc; 13,7Wout@30Vdc stable.. @40Vdc after a quick peak the > power > > slowly goes down till below 1W! > > 2nd test I had still on hands the previous xfmr 5T/12T (Ae197mm=C2=B2 s= ame > > core as 1st test) so was worth to make a trial... same trend :-( for > > Vdc> 30V after a first peak... it goes down. > > I had another core available with different material (N30, Ae 154mm=C2= =B2 > > R58) so I prepared a new xfmr with this core 7T/14T: > > 1,4Wout@10Vdc; 4,6Wout@20Vdc; 9,2Wout@30Vdc .... at 40Vdc a short > burst > > with almost 15Wout and then down down down... :-(((((( > > > > I noticed a difference in comparison to your project: you connected > the > > + and - rails to ground via 10nF and here I used 100nF caps could it > > explain this behaviour? > > > > 73 Marco > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.20 > > A: > > Ogg: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > that was also my thought.. but they run at room temperature: the > > resonance is obtained with 4 polyesther 2200 pF 2000 Vdc caps. the > > classic boxes 25x15x5mm > > > > Marco > > > > ---- > > Messaggio originale---- > > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.03 > > A: > > Ogg: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like > > capacitors > > heating up and changing its value. I can't think of any other > > component > > that will change with dissipation / heating. What type of capacitor > > are > > you using in the tank? > > > > Andy > > > > > > On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > wrote: > > > > > >> anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing > >> flowers? > >> > >> Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that > >> some effects in this area are present. > >> > >> I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected > >> simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. > >> The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output > >> > > is > > > >> stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output > >> starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at > 40 > >> and 50V. > >> The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts > from > >> 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. > >> > >> I need a long weekend of meditation... > >> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >> > >> > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > >> Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > >> Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 > >> A: > >> Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >> > >> Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D > >> > >> yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward > >> > > the > > > >> PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) > >> > >> the PS should > >> provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for > >> > > 20A > > > >> @ 25=C2=B0C (13A @ 100=C2=B0C) so.. I admit it would like to give a tr= y ;-) > >> > >> I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level > >> where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm=C2=B2Ae: i= f I > >> am > >> not totally wrong B should be< 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the > >> > > primary > > > >> Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel > is > >> running in its cage ;-) > >> > >> Thanks again for assistence > >> > >> Marco IK1HSS > >> > >> > >> > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >> Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 > >> A: > >> Cc: > >> Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >> > >> 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance > of > >> 6.8 > >> ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't > >> think > >> you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more > >> realistic. > >> > >> As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very > >> wrong. > >> I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core > >> > > Ae, > > > >> but > >> lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. > >> > >> V =3D 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax > >> > > of > > > >> 0.1 > >> that suggests 85V RMS. > >> Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . > >> Before > >> a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload =3D 13 ohms > >> > >> Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be > >> customised > >> to > >> you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper > >> settings > >> foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. > >> Only > >> when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard > circuit. > >> > >> When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) > >> unit > >> before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Hi Andy... me again... > >>> > >>> I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick > >>> dinner and connected all, but... > >>> > >>> now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my > >>> readings/calculations: > >>> (see attached picture) > >>> again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc > >>> > > after > > > >>> an initial burst it start to fall down.. > >>> I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 > >>> > >> kHz > >> > >>> with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the > >>> "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... > >>> > >>> mumble mumble > >>> > >>> I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at > >>> 180V! > >>> > >>> Marco, IK1HSS > >>> > >>> > >>> ----Messaggio originale---- > >>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >>> Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 > >>> A: > >>> Cc: > >>> Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >>> > >>> I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there > >>> > > the > > > >>> values are different from your statement in the email. It shows > >>> primary 5 > >>> turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 > >>> > > ohms > > > >>> which > >>> is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to > >>> > > the > > > >>> ideal > >>> Rl > >>> > >>> The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high > >>> > > a > > > >> Q > >> > >>> is > >>> used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the > >>> > >> region > >> > >>> of > >>> 6. > >>> > >>> Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 > >>> Watts > >>> from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will > >>> > > end > > > >>> up > >>> with high voltage and critical tuning > >>> > >>> Andy G4JNT > >>> > >>> On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Yes. > >>>> As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that > >>>> > > the > > > >>> peak > >>> > >>>> of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER > >>>> > > than > > > >>> the peak > >>> > >>>> by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more > >>>> > >> power > >> > >>> (1.6 > >>> > >>>> times) than it was supposed to. > >>>> > >>>> So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine > >>>> component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of > >>>> > > the > > > >>>> resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to > >>>> > >> RMS- > >> > >>> sine > >>> > >>>> ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a > >>>> > >>> further > >>> > >>>> factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. > >>>> > >>>> Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux > >>>> > >> in > >> a > >> > >>>> magnetic code, V =3D 4.44.F.N.A.B > >>>> The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes > >>>> > > about > > > >>> from > >>> > >>>> the same sort of sine to square transform. > >>>> > >>>> Andy > >>>> > >>>> On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>> > > it> > > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the > >>>>> > > same > > > >>> of > >>> > >>>>> Vrms before FETs make their work! > >>>>> > >>>>> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! > >>>>> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with > >>>>> > > the > > > >>>>> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) > >>>>> > >>>>> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to > >>>>> > > burnout > > > >>> the > >>> > >>>>> antenna hi > >>>>> > >>>>> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy > >>>>> > >>>>> 73 Marco, IK1HSS > >>>>> ----Messaggio originale---- > >>>>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >>>>> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 > >>>>> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", > >>>>> > >>>>> Cc: > >>>>> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>> > >>>>> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output > >>>>> transformer > >>>>> doesn't look right. > >>>>> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary > >>>>> > > of > > > >>> 12 > >>> > >>>>> turns...*" > >>>>> > >>>>> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. > >>>>> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 =3D 229V pk-pk > >>>>> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] =3D 81V RMS > >>>>> > >>>>> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms > >>>>> > >> (fund) > >> =3D > >> > >>>>> 0.45VDC > >>>>> > >>>>> For 500 Watts out, Rload =3D 81 ^ 2 / 500 =3D 13 ohms > >>>>> > >>>>> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) =3D > >>>>> > >> 1.9: > >> > >>>>> 1 so > >>>>> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 > >>>>> > >>> turns > >>> > >>>>> on > >>>>> the primary > >>>>> > >>>>> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary > >>>>> > > exactly > > > >>> as > >>> > >>>>> the > >>>>> square of the voltage. > >>>>> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: > >>>>> > >>>>> 12V DC =3D 12V pk-pk =3D 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi =3D 5.4V RMS > >>>>> > >>> (fundamental) > >>> > >>>>> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 =3D 2.2 Watts > >>>>> > >>>>> check using ratio of voltages, squared : > >>>>> > >>>>> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W =3D 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. > >>>>> QED > >>>>> > >>>>> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 =3D > >>>>> > >> 78 > >> > >>>>> ohms > >>>>> > >>>>> At 40V DC =3D=3D 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 =3D 4.1 watts > >>>>> > >> which > >> > >>> is > >>> > >>>>> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, > >>>>> > > but > > > >>> the > >>> > >>>>> low > >>>>> power is in the area of what you measured.. > >>>>> > >>>>> Andy G4JNT > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>>> > > it> > > > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Chris, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I > >>>>>> > >> had > >> > >>> no > >>> > >>>>>> success.. > >>>>>> As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the > >>>>>> attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... > >>>>>> Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and > >>>>>> suggestion are welcome! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 73, Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original message----- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it > >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 > >>>>>> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi LF, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > >>>>>> > >> of > >> > >>>>>> Andy.. > >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > >>>>>> > >> the > >> > >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you > >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is > >>>>>> > > believed > > > >> to > >> > >>> be > >>> > >>>>>> clean. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" > >>>>>> To: > >>>>>> Cc: > >>>>>> Bcc: > >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) > >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>>> Hi LF, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > >>>>>> > >> of > >> > >>>>>> Andy.. > >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > >>>>>> > >> the > >> > >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you > >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is > >>>>>> > > believed > > > >> to > >> > >>> be > >>> > >>>>>> clean. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --f403043882b4b4c5e705510fd472 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is a famous quote by Sherlock Holmes that goes "= ;Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever rem= ains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

You ha= ve shown by your substitutions that the drop-off in power cannot be the fer= rite core or the=C2=A0the capacitors.=C2= =A0 So they now become "the impossible".

What r= emains, however improbable, are the FETs, and something else.=C2=A0 The FET= s =C2=A0are well within their ratings and at low power are giving the expec= ted output, so it is more than likely they are behaving properly so look fo= r other improbables first

There is something else that could become an "improbable&quo= t;. =C2=A0 What are you using to measure the power output?=C2=A0 And is it = your ONLY means of measuring the RF level. =C2=A0 Could this be failing at = the higher RF?
I have seen a di= ode detector do something similar as the reverse voltage across the diode r= eaches breakdown. =C2=A0 =C2=A0Some small Schottky diodes can do this at su= rprisingly low voltages, so if you haven't checked their specification = before use...
If you use a powe= r meter, is it designed for use this low in frequency? =C2=A0 If not, the L= F could be heating something.
<= br>
Check and see if the DC cha= nges with the power fall-off. =C2=A0 If DC power stays the same and indicat= ed RF falls, that points very definitely to the sensor / detector. =C2=A0 = =C2=A0IF DC falls with the RF, it suggests FETS or something early on. =C2= =A0=C2=A0

If not FETS and not the RF measur= ement - there is even less left to look at - so consider other "improb= ables". =C2=A0 There won't be many left by now. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Could there be some kind of feedback into the dr= iver - unlikely but you're eliminating the impossibles one-by-one

Andy =C2=A0G4JNT
<= br>


On 3 June 2017 at 15:44, marcocadeddu@tin.it <marcocadeddu@tin.it> wrote:
Hi Stefan,

and thank you :-) so you have too something to mumble while sending
VLF SMS ;-)
There is nothing really new.. I started from an avalable
chassis with on board a PS giving 180Vdc (1200W) and assembled the
Andy's half bridge 700W switching PA and before give it the full power<= br> I'm checking with lower DC supply. Attached you see the schematic with<= br> some change at the moment..
The output xfmr has 7T/19T, the coil of the guard circuit is not
connected (now is in serie with L2) and the resonating caps now are
5x1000pF in parallel.
The aim is finally with 180Vdc of supply have an output of 0,5=C3=B71kW
but.... as you probably red in the previous messages, from 10 to 30Vdc
the PA runs, at low power of course (up to 15W), and complies the
calculations; with supply between 30 and 50 Vdc the output go down to a
couple of W.
I made several trials it the last days, changing the core of the xfmr,
the turn ratio, the kind of capacitators but nothing changes (or at
least the change are within a fraction of dB).

that's the sad history Stefan...
All thoughts and suggestions are welcome! (including go to fish ;-)) )
Marco

----Messaggio originale----
Da: selberdenken@posteo.de Data: 3-giu-2017 16.19
A: <rsgb_lf_group@blacks= heep.org>
Ogg: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived...

Hi Marco,

If you like, i can help you. Just need a schematic to see what you
want
to do. Targer power, voltage, etc...

73, Stefan

Am 03.06.2017 16:02, schrieb marcoca= deddu@tin.it:
> Hi Alan, Andy, Chris,
>
> I replaced the caps in the output LC with WIMA FKP1, the 2 caps wich > replaces the missing half of the bridge are still Cornell Dubillier > 940C serie (rated at 9A @100kHz), so now all the caps are pulse rated<= br> > but...
> I regret to admit it, nothing changed :-((
> Power out increases from 10 to 30Vdc and at 40Vdc after a first pulse<= br> > the power slowly decreases till a couple of watts..
>
> Just to check another thing: being the coil of the guard circuit
> disconnected, I jointed the 2 coils together (they are wound on the > same support) increasing so the inductance of the L (25T more). Of
> course I had to retune and now I need C in the range of 5000pF but
this
> narrowed the 3dB bandwidth of the LC from abt 15kHz to abt 8kHz so is<= br> > the Q increased!
>
> ... I should visit Decathlon and look for a fishing rod!
>
> your sincerely depressed IK1HSS
>
> ----Messaggio originale----
> Da: alan.melia@btinternet= .com
> Data: 2-giu-2017 15.58
> A:<rsgb_lf_group@bl= acksheep.org>
> Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived...
>
> Hi Marco, I may well be wrong I was experimenting with 150W at 35V I > measured 12 to 15A through the capacitors (from memory) .......the
> confirmation is that the change is permanent. I dont remember seeing > any
> heating effects. Single ended Class E may be considerably different to
> H-bridge. The currents a lower power will be less,=C2=A0 about 1.5A or= so
> (??) I
> am not sure it that would produce damage, but you would certainly see<= br> > it as
> the power increased.
>
> Good Luck with it
> Alan
> G3NYK
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:<marcocadeddu@tin.it>
> To:<
rsgb_lf_group@b= lacksheep.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 2:00 PM
> Subject: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived...
>
>
> Hi Alan,
>
> and thanks for joining :-)
> it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of &qu= ot;high
> currents"..
> The PA is an half bridge like
> Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these pr= oblem
> trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W)..
> Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested ju= st in
case
> my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. > 73 Marco
> ----Messaggio originale----
> Da: alan.melia@btinternet= .com
> Data: 2-giu-2017 14.36
> A:<rsgb_lf_group@bl= acksheep.org>
> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived...
>
> Hi Marco I dont know where you are putting the caps but I am assuming<= br> > they
> are passing a high RF corrent. I found that the old style (valve)
high
> voltage caps in my Class E test rig changed capacitance permanently > during
> and after a run (capacitance reduced). I assumed that the current was<= br> > fusing
> the foil connection to the lead-out wires. When using "pulse rate= d"
> capacitors as used in SMPSUs I had no further capacitance change
> problems.
> The ones I have are RIFA PHE 428 2000v from RS Components. I think
> Farnell
> do a WIMA equivalent.
>
> Best Wishes
> Alan
> G3NYK
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:<marcocadeddu@tin.it>
> To:<
rsgb_lf_group@b= lacksheep.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:06 PM
> Subject: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived...<= br> >
>
> now my thoughts are even more confused....
> Hi Andy, me again....
> after a long night of meditation, I remembered I had a bounch of old > style mica capacitators 1000pF 1000V..
> I put
> 9 of them in parallel to get the closer value to the 8800pF I had
> before.
> Of course the resonance moved a bit and now is on 134.5 kHz with 3dB > bandwidth of 9 kHz (Q=3D15 I know is a bit to high..) so carried out some
> tests on 134 kHz (of course on the dummyload) all without guard
circuit
> 1st test xfmr 7T/19T (Ae197mm=C2=B2 R50 mat T38): 2Wout @10Vdc; 6,5 > Wout@20Vdc; 13,7Wout@30Vdc stable.. @40Vdc after a quick peak the
power
> slowly goes down till below 1W!
> 2nd test I had still on hands the previous xfmr 5T/12T (Ae197mm=C2=B2 = same
> core as 1st test) so was worth to make a trial... same trend :-( for > Vdc>=C2=A0 30V after a first peak... it goes down.
> I had another core available with different material (N30, Ae 154mm=C2= =B2
> R58) so I prepared a new xfmr with this core 7T/14T:
> 1,4Wout@10Vdc; 4,6Wout@20Vdc; 9,2Wout@30Vdc .... at 40Vdc a short
burst
> with almost 15Wout and then down down down... :-((((((
>
> I noticed a difference in comparison to your project: you connected the
> + and - rails to ground via 10nF and here I used 100nF caps could it > explain this behaviour?
>
> 73 Marco
>
> ----Messaggio originale----
> Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it
> Data: 1-giu-2017 22.20
> A:<rsgb_lf_group@bl= acksheep.org>
> Ogg: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived...
>
> that was also my thought.. but they run at room temperature: the
> resonance is obtained with 4 polyesther 2200 pF 2000 Vdc caps. the
> classic boxes 25x15x5mm
>
> Marco
>
> ----
> Messaggio originale----
> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.03
> A:<rsgb_lf_group@bl= acksheep.org>
> Ogg: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived...
>
> If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like
> capacitors
> heating up and changing its value.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I can't think of an= y other
> component
> that will change with dissipation / heating.=C2=A0 What type of capaci= tor
> are
> you using in the tank?
>
> Andy
>
>
> On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcoc= adeddu@tin.it<marcocaded= du@tin.it>
> wrote:
>
>
>> anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing<= br> >> flowers?
>>
>> Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed tha= t
>> some effects in this area are present.
>>
>> I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconn= ected
>> simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge.
>> The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the outpu= t
>>
> is
>
>> stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output<= br> >> starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at=
40
>> and 50V.
>> The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts from
>> 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. >>
>> I need a long weekend of meditation...
>> 73 Marco IK1HSS
>>
>>
>> ----Messaggio originale----
>> Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it=
>> Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05
>> A:<rsgb_lf_grou= p@blacksheep.org>
>> Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived...
>>
>> Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D
>>
>> yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward=
>>
> the
>
>> PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) >>
>> the PS should
>> provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for=
>>
> 20A
>
>> @ 25=C2=B0C (13A @ 100=C2=B0C) so.. I admit it would like to give = a try ;-)
>>
>> I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power l= evel
>> where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm=C2=B2A= e: if I
>> am
>> not totally wrong B should be<=C2=A0 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on= the
>>
> primary
>
>> Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel=
is
>> running in its cage ;-)
>>
>> Thanks again for assistence
>>
>> Marco IK1HSS
>>
>>
>>
>> ----Messaggio originale----
>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com
>> Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39
>> A:<
rsgb_lf_grou= p@blacksheep.org>
>> Cc:<dead.fets@gmail.com<= /a>>
>> Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived...
>>
>> 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output)=C2=A0 means you have a load resis= tance
of
>> 6.8
>> ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW=C2=A0 I = don't
>> think
>> you really mean to go that extreme do you?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 13 ohms is= more
>> realistic.
>>
>> As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is ver= y
>> wrong.
>> I wonder if the transformer is saturating.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Not sure of= your core
>>
> Ae,
>
>> but
>> lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter.
>>
>> V =3D 4.44.F.N.A.B=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm= ^2 and a Bmax
>>
> of
>
>> 0.1
>> that suggests 85V RMS.
>> Which is exactlyly what you have.=C2=A0 I suggest more primary tur= ns .
>> Before
>> a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload =3D 13 ohms >>
>> Is the guard circuit in place ?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Don't forget, it h= as to be
>> customised
>> to
>> you exact currents and coil Q.=C2=A0 Get teh PA operating to its p= roper
>> settings
>> foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly= .
>> Only
>> when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard
circuit.
>>
>> When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliabl= e)
>> unit
>> before even thinking of teh guard circuitry.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 31 May 2017 at 18:50,
ma= rcocadeddu@tin.it<marcocaded<= wbr>du@tin.it>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Hi Andy... me again...
>>>
>>> I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very qui= ck
>>> dinner and connected all, but...
>>>
>>> now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my
>>> readings/calculations:
>>> (see attached picture)
>>> again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vc= c
>>>
> after
>
>>> an initial burst it start to fall down..
>>> I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on= 137
>>>
>> kHz
>>
>>> with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc th= e
>>> "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz...
>>>
>>> mumble mumble
>>>
>>> I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happen= s at
>>> 180V!
>>>
>>> Marco, IK1HSS
>>>
>>>
>>> ----Messaggio originale----
>>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.c= om
>>> Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50
>>> A:<rsgb_lf_= group@blacksheep.org>
>>> Cc:<dead.fets@gmail.= com>
>>> Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived...
>>>
>>> I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - o= n there
>>>
> the
>
>>> values are different from your statement in the email.=C2=A0 I= t shows
>>> primary 5
>>> turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of= 9
>>>
> ohms
>
>>> which
>>> is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer = to
>>>
> the
>
>>> ideal
>>> Rl
>>>
>>> The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too = high
>>>
> a
>
>> Q
>>
>>> is
>>> used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in t= he
>>>
>> region
>>
>>> of
>>> 6.
>>>
>>> Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time fo= r 500
>>> Watts
>>> from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you w= ill
>>>
> end
>
>>> up
>>> with high voltage and critical tuning
>>>
>>> Andy=C2=A0 G4JNT
>>>
>>> On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot<andy.g4jnt@gmail.com>=C2=A0 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Yes.
>>>> As you'll see in my original write up, I originally fo= rgot that
>>>>
> the
>
>>> peak
>>>
>>>> of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREA= TER
>>>>
> than
>
>>> the peak
>>>
>>>> by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot = more
>>>>
>> power
>>
>>> (1.6
>>>
>>>> times) than it was supposed to.
>>>>
>>>> So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundament= al sine
>>>> component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27.=C2=A0 T= he RMS of
>>>>
> the
>
>>>> resulting sine=C2=A0 is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Pe= ak square to
>>>>
>> RMS-
>>
>>> sine
>>>
>>>> ratio of=C2=A0 0.9..=C2=A0 =C2=A0If you specifye peak-peak= of the square wave, a
>>>>
>>> further
>>>
>>>> factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described b= efore.
>>>>
>>>> Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for= =C2=A0 flux
>>>>
>> in
>> a
>>
>>>> magnetic code,=C2=A0 =C2=A0V =3D 4.44.F.N.A.B
>>>> The magic number 4.44=C2=A0 is actually SQRT(2) * pi=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0and comes
>>>>
> about
>
>>> from
>>>
>>>> the same sort of sine to square transform.
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>> On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it<marcocadeddu@tin.
>>>>
> it>
>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc = are the
>>>>>
> same
>
>>> of
>>>
>>>>> Vrms before FETs make their work!
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!!
>>>>> With this approach calculation changes a bit and proba= bly with
>>>>>
> the
>
>>>>> right Xfmr=C2=A0 the PA can give higher satisfaction := -)
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm = ready to
>>>>>
> burnout
>
>>> the
>>>
>>>>> antenna hi
>>>>>
>>>>> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy >>>>>
>>>>> 73 Marco, IK1HSS
>>>>> ----Messaggio originale----
>>>>> Da: andy.g4jnt= @gmail.com
>>>>> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18
>>>>> A: "marcoc= adeddu@tin.it"<marcocad<= wbr>eddu@tin.it>,
>>>>> <rs= gb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
>>>>> Cc:<dead.fet= s@gmail.com>
>>>>> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived...
>>>>>
>>>>> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the = output
>>>>> transformer
>>>>> doesn't look right.
>>>>> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns= and secondary
>>>>>
> of
>
>>> 12
>>>
>>>>> turns...*"
>>>>>
>>>>> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave= .
>>>>> The fundamental sine part of that is=C2=A0 4/pi * 180 = =3D 229V pk-pk
>>>>> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] =3D 81V RMS
>>>>>
>>>>> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge i= s Vrms
>>>>>
>> (fund)
>> =3D
>>
>>>>> 0.45VDC
>>>>>
>>>>> For 500 Watts out, Rload =3D=C2=A0 81 ^ 2 / 500 =3D=C2= =A0 13 ohms
>>>>>
>>>>> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(= 50/13) =3D
>>>>>
>> 1.9:
>>
>>>>> 1=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0so
>>>>> call it 2:1=C2=A0 Keeping 12 turns on the=C2=A0 second= ary means you need 6
>>>>>
>>> turns
>>>
>>>>> on
>>>>> the primary
>>>>>
>>>>> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will = vary
>>>>>
> exactly
>
>>> as
>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>> square of the voltage.
>>>>> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply:<= br> >>>>>
>>>>> 12V=C2=A0 DC =3D 12V pk-pk =3D 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi= =3D 5.4V RMS
>>>>>
>>> (fundamental)
>>>
>>>>> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 =3D 2.2 Watts
>>>>>
>>>>> check using ratio of voltages, squared :
>>>>>
>>>>> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W =3D 2.2 Watts which is the same = as above.
>>>>> QED
>>>>>
>>>>> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12= )^2 * 50 =3D
>>>>>
>> 78
>>
>>>>> ohms
>>>>>
>>>>> At 40V DC =3D=3D 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 = =3D 4.1 watts
>>>>>
>> which
>>
>>> is
>>>
>>>>> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy= is odd,
>>>>>
> but
>
>>> the
>>>
>>>>> low
>>>>> power is in the area of what you measured..
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy=C2=A0 G4JNT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it<marcocadeddu@tin.
>>>>>
> it>
>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Chris,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I tried to post this message on the reflector but = apparently I
>>>>>>
>> had
>>
>>> no
>>>
>>>>>> success..
>>>>>> As promised I keep you updated but as you can read= in the
>>>>>> attachment the first trials were not enocouraging.= ..
>>>>>> Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interp= retation and
>>>>>> suggestion are welcome!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 73, Marco IK1HSS
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original message-----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marco= cadeddu@tin.it
>>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200
>>>>>> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
>>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi LF,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived!
>>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expe= cted :-(
>>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the= half bridge
>>>>>>
>> of
>>
>>>>>> Andy..
>>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all co= nnecting to
>>>>>>
>> the
>>
>>>>>> 180Vdc supply?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you
>>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project an= d is
>>>>>>
> believed
>
>> to
>>
>>> be
>>>
>>>>>> clean.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it"<ma= rcocadeddu@tin.it>
>>>>>> To:<rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
>>>>>> Cc:
>>>>>> Bcc:
>>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST)
>>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived...
>>>>>> Hi LF,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived!
>>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expe= cted :-(
>>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the= half bridge
>>>>>>
>> of
>>
>>>>>> Andy..
>>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all co= nnecting to
>>>>>>
>> the
>>
>>>>>> 180Vdc supply?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you
>>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project an= d is
>>>>>>
> believed
>
>> to
>>
>>> be
>>>
>>>>>> clean.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




--f403043882b4b4c5e705510fd472-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sat Jun 3 17:44:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v53FiCgr018078 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 17:44:13 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHBA1-0007Nn-CP for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:40:17 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHBA0-0007Ne-LK for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:40:16 +0100 Received: from smtp1web.tin.it ([212.216.176.195]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHB9w-0004st-Mx for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:40:15 +0100 Received: from feu20 (10.192.64.30) by smtp1web.tin.it (8.6.060.43) id 58893FFA0290A7FD for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 17:40:10 +0200 Received: from (80.182.160.35) by wmlighttin.pc.tim.it; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 17:40:10 +0200 Message-ID: <15c6e9d2035.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 17:40:10 +0200 (CEST) From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 80.182.160.35 X-Scan-Signature: b0ec971b39a54ac37f68e38fd00b8a84 Subject: R: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lipkowski.org id v53FiCgr018078 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11866 Hi Andy, and again thank you for the time and analythics :-) this give me something to do in the rest of the weekend ;-) Let me just point a couple of point, but will duly verify all the suggestions. I measure power to dummyload via a 30dB (homemade) LF directional coupler (first thing to check) via a 20dB attenuator (2nd to be checked) and and adaptive 50/75 ohm (3rd to be checked) 6dB attenuator which feeds an SPM15 selective level meter (this has an autocheck :-) ) It is intriguing the idea that the driver makes something strange and I can check it (but it lives below the chassis, it's separated via an xfmr and has its own power supply) The FETs were brand new at the first trial and I guess they are still healty (this will the last thing to try because replacing the FETs means almost a full demontage..) OK now I have something to do.... stay tuned ;-) CU Marco IK1HSS ----Messaggio originale---- Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com Data: 3-giu-2017 17.21 A: Ogg: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... There is a famous quote by Sherlock Holmes that goes "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." You have shown by your substitutions that the drop-off in power cannot be the ferrite core or the the capacitors. So they now become "the impossible". What remains, however improbable, are the FETs, and something else. The FETs are well within their ratings and at low power are giving the expected output, so it is more than likely they are behaving properly so look for other improbables first There is something else that could become an "improbable". What are you using to measure the power output? And is it your ONLY means of measuring the RF level. Could this be failing at the higher RF? I have seen a diode detector do something similar as the reverse voltage across the diode reaches breakdown. Some small Schottky diodes can do this at surprisingly low voltages, so if you haven't checked their specification before use... If you use a power meter, is it designed for use this low in frequency? If not, the LF could be heating something. Check and see if the DC changes with the power fall-off. If DC power stays the same and indicated RF falls, that points very definitely to the sensor / detector. IF DC falls with the RF, it suggests FETS or something early on. If not FETS and not the RF measurement - there is even less left to look at - so consider other "improbables". There won't be many left by now. Could there be some kind of feedback into the driver - unlikely but you're eliminating the impossibles one-by-one Andy G4JNT On 3 June 2017 at 15:44, marcocadeddu@tin.it wrote: > Hi Stefan, > > and thank you :-) so you have too something to mumble while sending > VLF SMS ;-) > There is nothing really new.. I started from an avalable > chassis with on board a PS giving 180Vdc (1200W) and assembled the > Andy's half bridge 700W switching PA and before give it the full power > I'm checking with lower DC supply. Attached you see the schematic with > some change at the moment.. > The output xfmr has 7T/19T, the coil of the guard circuit is not > connected (now is in serie with L2) and the resonating caps now are > 5x1000pF in parallel. > The aim is finally with 180Vdc of supply have an output of 0,5÷1kW > but.... as you probably red in the previous messages, from 10 to 30Vdc > the PA runs, at low power of course (up to 15W), and complies the > calculations; with supply between 30 and 50 Vdc the output go down to a > couple of W. > I made several trials it the last days, changing the core of the xfmr, > the turn ratio, the kind of capacitators but nothing changes (or at > least the change are within a fraction of dB). > > that's the sad history Stefan... > All thoughts and suggestions are welcome! (including go to fish ;-)) ) > Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: selberdenken@posteo.de > Data: 3-giu-2017 16.19 > A: > Ogg: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Hi Marco, > > If you like, i can help you. Just need a schematic to see what you > want > to do. Targer power, voltage, etc... > > 73, Stefan > > Am 03.06.2017 16:02, schrieb marcocadeddu@tin.it: > > Hi Alan, Andy, Chris, > > > > I replaced the caps in the output LC with WIMA FKP1, the 2 caps wich > > replaces the missing half of the bridge are still Cornell Dubillier > > 940C serie (rated at 9A @100kHz), so now all the caps are pulse rated > > but... > > I regret to admit it, nothing changed :-(( > > Power out increases from 10 to 30Vdc and at 40Vdc after a first pulse > > the power slowly decreases till a couple of watts.. > > > > Just to check another thing: being the coil of the guard circuit > > disconnected, I jointed the 2 coils together (they are wound on the > > same support) increasing so the inductance of the L (25T more). Of > > course I had to retune and now I need C in the range of 5000pF but > this > > narrowed the 3dB bandwidth of the LC from abt 15kHz to abt 8kHz so is > > the Q increased! > > > > ... I should visit Decathlon and look for a fishing rod! > > > > your sincerely depressed IK1HSS > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > > Data: 2-giu-2017 15.58 > > A: > > Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > Hi Marco, I may well be wrong I was experimenting with 150W at 35V I > > measured 12 to 15A through the capacitors (from memory) .......the > > confirmation is that the change is permanent. I dont remember seeing > > any > > heating effects. Single ended Class E may be considerably different > to > > H-bridge. The currents a lower power will be less, about 1.5A or so > > (??) I > > am not sure it that would produce damage, but you would certainly see > > it as > > the power increased. > > > > Good Luck with it > > Alan > > G3NYK > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 2:00 PM > > Subject: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > > > Hi Alan, > > > > and thanks for joining :-) > > it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of "high > > currents".. > > The PA is an half bridge like > > Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these problem > > trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W).. > > Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested just in > case > > my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. > > 73 Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > > Data: 2-giu-2017 14.36 > > A: > > Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > Hi Marco I dont know where you are putting the caps but I am assuming > > they > > are passing a high RF corrent. I found that the old style (valve) > high > > voltage caps in my Class E test rig changed capacitance permanently > > during > > and after a run (capacitance reduced). I assumed that the current was > > fusing > > the foil connection to the lead-out wires. When using "pulse rated" > > capacitors as used in SMPSUs I had no further capacitance change > > problems. > > The ones I have are RIFA PHE 428 2000v from RS Components. I think > > Farnell > > do a WIMA equivalent. > > > > Best Wishes > > Alan > > G3NYK > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:06 PM > > Subject: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > > > now my thoughts are even more confused.... > > Hi Andy, me again.... > > after a long night of meditation, I remembered I had a bounch of old > > style mica capacitators 1000pF 1000V.. > > I put > > 9 of them in parallel to get the closer value to the 8800pF I had > > before. > > Of course the resonance moved a bit and now is on 134.5 kHz with 3dB > > bandwidth of 9 kHz (Q=15 I know is a bit to high..) so carried out > some > > tests on 134 kHz (of course on the dummyload) all without guard > circuit > > 1st test xfmr 7T/19T (Ae197mm² R50 mat T38): 2Wout @10Vdc; 6,5 > > Wout@20Vdc; 13,7Wout@30Vdc stable.. @40Vdc after a quick peak the > power > > slowly goes down till below 1W! > > 2nd test I had still on hands the previous xfmr 5T/12T (Ae197mm² same > > core as 1st test) so was worth to make a trial... same trend :-( for > > Vdc> 30V after a first peak... it goes down. > > I had another core available with different material (N30, Ae 154mm² > > R58) so I prepared a new xfmr with this core 7T/14T: > > 1,4Wout@10Vdc; 4,6Wout@20Vdc; 9,2Wout@30Vdc .... at 40Vdc a short > burst > > with almost 15Wout and then down down down... :-(((((( > > > > I noticed a difference in comparison to your project: you connected > the > > + and - rails to ground via 10nF and here I used 100nF caps could it > > explain this behaviour? > > > > 73 Marco > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.20 > > A: > > Ogg: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > that was also my thought.. but they run at room temperature: the > > resonance is obtained with 4 polyesther 2200 pF 2000 Vdc caps. the > > classic boxes 25x15x5mm > > > > Marco > > > > ---- > > Messaggio originale---- > > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.03 > > A: > > Ogg: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like > > capacitors > > heating up and changing its value. I can't think of any other > > component > > that will change with dissipation / heating. What type of capacitor > > are > > you using in the tank? > > > > Andy > > > > > > On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > wrote: > > > > > >> anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing > >> flowers? > >> > >> Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that > >> some effects in this area are present. > >> > >> I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected > >> simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. > >> The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output > >> > > is > > > >> stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output > >> starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at > 40 > >> and 50V. > >> The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts > from > >> 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. > >> > >> I need a long weekend of meditation... > >> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >> > >> > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > >> Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > >> Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 > >> A: > >> Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >> > >> Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D > >> > >> yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward > >> > > the > > > >> PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) > >> > >> the PS should > >> provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for > >> > > 20A > > > >> @ 25°C (13A @ 100°C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try ;-) > >> > >> I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level > >> where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm²Ae: if I > >> am > >> not totally wrong B should be< 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the > >> > > primary > > > >> Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel > is > >> running in its cage ;-) > >> > >> Thanks again for assistence > >> > >> Marco IK1HSS > >> > >> > >> > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >> Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 > >> A: > >> Cc: > >> Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >> > >> 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance > of > >> 6.8 > >> ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't > >> think > >> you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more > >> realistic. > >> > >> As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very > >> wrong. > >> I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core > >> > > Ae, > > > >> but > >> lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. > >> > >> V = 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax > >> > > of > > > >> 0.1 > >> that suggests 85V RMS. > >> Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . > >> Before > >> a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload = 13 ohms > >> > >> Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be > >> customised > >> to > >> you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper > >> settings > >> foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. > >> Only > >> when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard > circuit. > >> > >> When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) > >> unit > >> before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Hi Andy... me again... > >>> > >>> I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick > >>> dinner and connected all, but... > >>> > >>> now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my > >>> readings/calculations: > >>> (see attached picture) > >>> again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc > >>> > > after > > > >>> an initial burst it start to fall down.. > >>> I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 > >>> > >> kHz > >> > >>> with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the > >>> "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... > >>> > >>> mumble mumble > >>> > >>> I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at > >>> 180V! > >>> > >>> Marco, IK1HSS > >>> > >>> > >>> ----Messaggio originale---- > >>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >>> Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 > >>> A: > >>> Cc: > >>> Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >>> > >>> I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there > >>> > > the > > > >>> values are different from your statement in the email. It shows > >>> primary 5 > >>> turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 > >>> > > ohms > > > >>> which > >>> is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to > >>> > > the > > > >>> ideal > >>> Rl > >>> > >>> The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high > >>> > > a > > > >> Q > >> > >>> is > >>> used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the > >>> > >> region > >> > >>> of > >>> 6. > >>> > >>> Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 > >>> Watts > >>> from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will > >>> > > end > > > >>> up > >>> with high voltage and critical tuning > >>> > >>> Andy G4JNT > >>> > >>> On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Yes. > >>>> As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that > >>>> > > the > > > >>> peak > >>> > >>>> of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER > >>>> > > than > > > >>> the peak > >>> > >>>> by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more > >>>> > >> power > >> > >>> (1.6 > >>> > >>>> times) than it was supposed to. > >>>> > >>>> So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine > >>>> component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of > >>>> > > the > > > >>>> resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to > >>>> > >> RMS- > >> > >>> sine > >>> > >>>> ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a > >>>> > >>> further > >>> > >>>> factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. > >>>> > >>>> Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux > >>>> > >> in > >> a > >> > >>>> magnetic code, V = 4.44.F.N.A.B > >>>> The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes > >>>> > > about > > > >>> from > >>> > >>>> the same sort of sine to square transform. > >>>> > >>>> Andy > >>>> > >>>> On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>> > > it> > > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the > >>>>> > > same > > > >>> of > >>> > >>>>> Vrms before FETs make their work! > >>>>> > >>>>> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! > >>>>> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with > >>>>> > > the > > > >>>>> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) > >>>>> > >>>>> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to > >>>>> > > burnout > > > >>> the > >>> > >>>>> antenna hi > >>>>> > >>>>> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy > >>>>> > >>>>> 73 Marco, IK1HSS > >>>>> ----Messaggio originale---- > >>>>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >>>>> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 > >>>>> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", > >>>>> > >>>>> Cc: > >>>>> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>> > >>>>> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output > >>>>> transformer > >>>>> doesn't look right. > >>>>> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary > >>>>> > > of > > > >>> 12 > >>> > >>>>> turns...*" > >>>>> > >>>>> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. > >>>>> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 = 229V pk-pk > >>>>> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] = 81V RMS > >>>>> > >>>>> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms > >>>>> > >> (fund) > >> = > >> > >>>>> 0.45VDC > >>>>> > >>>>> For 500 Watts out, Rload = 81 ^ 2 / 500 = 13 ohms > >>>>> > >>>>> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) = > >>>>> > >> 1.9: > >> > >>>>> 1 so > >>>>> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 > >>>>> > >>> turns > >>> > >>>>> on > >>>>> the primary > >>>>> > >>>>> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary > >>>>> > > exactly > > > >>> as > >>> > >>>>> the > >>>>> square of the voltage. > >>>>> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: > >>>>> > >>>>> 12V DC = 12V pk-pk = 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi = 5.4V RMS > >>>>> > >>> (fundamental) > >>> > >>>>> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 = 2.2 Watts > >>>>> > >>>>> check using ratio of voltages, squared : > >>>>> > >>>>> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W = 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. > >>>>> QED > >>>>> > >>>>> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 = > >>>>> > >> 78 > >> > >>>>> ohms > >>>>> > >>>>> At 40V DC == 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 = 4.1 watts > >>>>> > >> which > >> > >>> is > >>> > >>>>> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, > >>>>> > > but > > > >>> the > >>> > >>>>> low > >>>>> power is in the area of what you measured.. > >>>>> > >>>>> Andy G4JNT > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>>> > > it> > > > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Chris, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I > >>>>>> > >> had > >> > >>> no > >>> > >>>>>> success.. > >>>>>> As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the > >>>>>> attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... > >>>>>> Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and > >>>>>> suggestion are welcome! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 73, Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original message----- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it > >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 > >>>>>> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi LF, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > >>>>>> > >> of > >> > >>>>>> Andy.. > >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > >>>>>> > >> the > >> > >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you > >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is > >>>>>> > > believed > > > >> to > >> > >>> be > >>> > >>>>>> clean. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" > >>>>>> To: > >>>>>> Cc: > >>>>>> Bcc: > >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) > >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>>> Hi LF, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > >>>>>> > >> of > >> > >>>>>> Andy.. > >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > >>>>>> > >> the > >> > >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you > >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is > >>>>>> > > believed > > > >> to > >> > >>> be > >>> > >>>>>> clean. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sat Jun 3 17:59:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS,STOX_REPLY_TYPE,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v53FxXqg018097 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 17:59:35 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHBOV-0007Vw-OI for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:55:15 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHBOV-0007Vn-54 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:55:15 +0100 Received: from rgout0207.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk ([65.20.0.206] helo=rgout02.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHBOR-0004wh-Cj for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:55:13 +0100 X-OWM-Source-IP: 109.146.90.196 (GB) X-OWM-Env-Sender: alan.melia@btinternet.com X-Junkmail-Premium-Raw: score=8/50,refid=2.7.2:2017.6.2.215415:17:8.707,ip=,rules=NO_URI_FOUND, NO_CTA_URI_FOUND, NO_MESSAGE_ID, NO_URI_HTTPS, TO_MALFORMED Received: from gnat (109.146.90.196) by rgout02.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk (9.0.019.13-1) (authenticated as alan.melia@btinternet.com) id 58482B9713092C29 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 16:55:10 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=btcpcloud; t=1496505311; bh=ilYj3FK/7R9dLdScs0TI6FZw+dwvog6j8vNYl5VAFDU=; h=Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:X-Mailer; b=EEi5zaR0dv6H3QIWVbWDtfehg3/V+n8mAB6lQnE5zDNtNLEUd42Cq7ym99zBlv5naQchX34BAqX39Sws5Klo5TeE9R4ql/42VfkKLEcM9MzUDdco7z9/b9dB3obF1fvMbbMQQBt1aDLBerbTC83VSnthe4B6tHv0cyMZMZWGxBY= Message-ID: <1EC6ED5BFE324FC59028D27368761426@gnat> From: "Alan Melia" To: References: <15c6e9d2035.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 16:54:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Scan-Signature: 567a8101566996da98704c9fd68b6dfe Subject: Re: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11867 Following on to Andy's Sherlock......do you monitor the driver supply voltage during the tests?? I am proposing a case lack of RF immunity in this driver PSU......"elementry dear Holmes" Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2017 4:40 PM Subject: R: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Hi Andy, and again thank you for the time and analythics :-) this give me something to do in the rest of the weekend ;-) Let me just point a couple of point, but will duly verify all the suggestions. I measure power to dummyload via a 30dB (homemade) LF directional coupler (first thing to check) via a 20dB attenuator (2nd to be checked) and and adaptive 50/75 ohm (3rd to be checked) 6dB attenuator which feeds an SPM15 selective level meter (this has an autocheck :-) ) It is intriguing the idea that the driver makes something strange and I can check it (but it lives below the chassis, it's separated via an xfmr and has its own power supply) The FETs were brand new at the first trial and I guess they are still healty (this will the last thing to try because replacing the FETs means almost a full demontage..) OK now I have something to do.... stay tuned ;-) CU Marco IK1HSS ----Messaggio originale---- Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com Data: 3-giu-2017 17.21 A: Ogg: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... There is a famous quote by Sherlock Holmes that goes "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." You have shown by your substitutions that the drop-off in power cannot be the ferrite core or the the capacitors. So they now become "the impossible". What remains, however improbable, are the FETs, and something else. The FETs are well within their ratings and at low power are giving the expected output, so it is more than likely they are behaving properly so look for other improbables first There is something else that could become an "improbable". What are you using to measure the power output? And is it your ONLY means of measuring the RF level. Could this be failing at the higher RF? I have seen a diode detector do something similar as the reverse voltage across the diode reaches breakdown. Some small Schottky diodes can do this at surprisingly low voltages, so if you haven't checked their specification before use... If you use a power meter, is it designed for use this low in frequency? If not, the LF could be heating something. Check and see if the DC changes with the power fall-off. If DC power stays the same and indicated RF falls, that points very definitely to the sensor / detector. IF DC falls with the RF, it suggests FETS or something early on. If not FETS and not the RF measurement - there is even less left to look at - so consider other "improbables". There won't be many left by now. Could there be some kind of feedback into the driver - unlikely but you're eliminating the impossibles one-by-one Andy G4JNT On 3 June 2017 at 15:44, marcocadeddu@tin.it wrote: > Hi Stefan, > > and thank you :-) so you have too something to mumble while sending > VLF SMS ;-) > There is nothing really new.. I started from an avalable > chassis with on board a PS giving 180Vdc (1200W) and assembled the > Andy's half bridge 700W switching PA and before give it the full power > I'm checking with lower DC supply. Attached you see the schematic with > some change at the moment.. > The output xfmr has 7T/19T, the coil of the guard circuit is not > connected (now is in serie with L2) and the resonating caps now are > 5x1000pF in parallel. > The aim is finally with 180Vdc of supply have an output of 0,5÷1kW > but.... as you probably red in the previous messages, from 10 to 30Vdc > the PA runs, at low power of course (up to 15W), and complies the > calculations; with supply between 30 and 50 Vdc the output go down to a > couple of W. > I made several trials it the last days, changing the core of the xfmr, > the turn ratio, the kind of capacitators but nothing changes (or at > least the change are within a fraction of dB). > > that's the sad history Stefan... > All thoughts and suggestions are welcome! (including go to fish ;-)) ) > Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: selberdenken@posteo.de > Data: 3-giu-2017 16.19 > A: > Ogg: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Hi Marco, > > If you like, i can help you. Just need a schematic to see what you > want > to do. Targer power, voltage, etc... > > 73, Stefan > > Am 03.06.2017 16:02, schrieb marcocadeddu@tin.it: > > Hi Alan, Andy, Chris, > > > > I replaced the caps in the output LC with WIMA FKP1, the 2 caps wich > > replaces the missing half of the bridge are still Cornell Dubillier > > 940C serie (rated at 9A @100kHz), so now all the caps are pulse rated > > but... > > I regret to admit it, nothing changed :-(( > > Power out increases from 10 to 30Vdc and at 40Vdc after a first pulse > > the power slowly decreases till a couple of watts.. > > > > Just to check another thing: being the coil of the guard circuit > > disconnected, I jointed the 2 coils together (they are wound on the > > same support) increasing so the inductance of the L (25T more). Of > > course I had to retune and now I need C in the range of 5000pF but > this > > narrowed the 3dB bandwidth of the LC from abt 15kHz to abt 8kHz so is > > the Q increased! > > > > ... I should visit Decathlon and look for a fishing rod! > > > > your sincerely depressed IK1HSS > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > > Data: 2-giu-2017 15.58 > > A: > > Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > Hi Marco, I may well be wrong I was experimenting with 150W at 35V I > > measured 12 to 15A through the capacitors (from memory) .......the > > confirmation is that the change is permanent. I dont remember seeing > > any > > heating effects. Single ended Class E may be considerably different > to > > H-bridge. The currents a lower power will be less, about 1.5A or so > > (??) I > > am not sure it that would produce damage, but you would certainly see > > it as > > the power increased. > > > > Good Luck with it > > Alan > > G3NYK > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 2:00 PM > > Subject: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > > > Hi Alan, > > > > and thanks for joining :-) > > it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of "high > > currents".. > > The PA is an half bridge like > > Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these problem > > trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W).. > > Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested just in > case > > my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. > > 73 Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > > Data: 2-giu-2017 14.36 > > A: > > Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > Hi Marco I dont know where you are putting the caps but I am assuming > > they > > are passing a high RF corrent. I found that the old style (valve) > high > > voltage caps in my Class E test rig changed capacitance permanently > > during > > and after a run (capacitance reduced). I assumed that the current was > > fusing > > the foil connection to the lead-out wires. When using "pulse rated" > > capacitors as used in SMPSUs I had no further capacitance change > > problems. > > The ones I have are RIFA PHE 428 2000v from RS Components. I think > > Farnell > > do a WIMA equivalent. > > > > Best Wishes > > Alan > > G3NYK > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:06 PM > > Subject: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > > > now my thoughts are even more confused.... > > Hi Andy, me again.... > > after a long night of meditation, I remembered I had a bounch of old > > style mica capacitators 1000pF 1000V.. > > I put > > 9 of them in parallel to get the closer value to the 8800pF I had > > before. > > Of course the resonance moved a bit and now is on 134.5 kHz with 3dB > > bandwidth of 9 kHz (Q=15 I know is a bit to high..) so carried out > some > > tests on 134 kHz (of course on the dummyload) all without guard > circuit > > 1st test xfmr 7T/19T (Ae197mm² R50 mat T38): 2Wout @10Vdc; 6,5 > > Wout@20Vdc; 13,7Wout@30Vdc stable.. @40Vdc after a quick peak the > power > > slowly goes down till below 1W! > > 2nd test I had still on hands the previous xfmr 5T/12T (Ae197mm² same > > core as 1st test) so was worth to make a trial... same trend :-( for > > Vdc> 30V after a first peak... it goes down. > > I had another core available with different material (N30, Ae 154mm² > > R58) so I prepared a new xfmr with this core 7T/14T: > > 1,4Wout@10Vdc; 4,6Wout@20Vdc; 9,2Wout@30Vdc .... at 40Vdc a short > burst > > with almost 15Wout and then down down down... :-(((((( > > > > I noticed a difference in comparison to your project: you connected > the > > + and - rails to ground via 10nF and here I used 100nF caps could it > > explain this behaviour? > > > > 73 Marco > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.20 > > A: > > Ogg: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > that was also my thought.. but they run at room temperature: the > > resonance is obtained with 4 polyesther 2200 pF 2000 Vdc caps. the > > classic boxes 25x15x5mm > > > > Marco > > > > ---- > > Messaggio originale---- > > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.03 > > A: > > Ogg: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like > > capacitors > > heating up and changing its value. I can't think of any other > > component > > that will change with dissipation / heating. What type of capacitor > > are > > you using in the tank? > > > > Andy > > > > > > On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > wrote: > > > > > >> anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing > >> flowers? > >> > >> Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that > >> some effects in this area are present. > >> > >> I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected > >> simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. > >> The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output > >> > > is > > > >> stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output > >> starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at > 40 > >> and 50V. > >> The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts > from > >> 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. > >> > >> I need a long weekend of meditation... > >> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >> > >> > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > >> Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > >> Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 > >> A: > >> Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >> > >> Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D > >> > >> yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward > >> > > the > > > >> PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) > >> > >> the PS should > >> provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for > >> > > 20A > > > >> @ 25°C (13A @ 100°C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try ;-) > >> > >> I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level > >> where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm²Ae: if I > >> am > >> not totally wrong B should be< 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the > >> > > primary > > > >> Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel > is > >> running in its cage ;-) > >> > >> Thanks again for assistence > >> > >> Marco IK1HSS > >> > >> > >> > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >> Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 > >> A: > >> Cc: > >> Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >> > >> 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance > of > >> 6.8 > >> ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't > >> think > >> you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more > >> realistic. > >> > >> As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very > >> wrong. > >> I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core > >> > > Ae, > > > >> but > >> lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. > >> > >> V = 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax > >> > > of > > > >> 0.1 > >> that suggests 85V RMS. > >> Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . > >> Before > >> a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload = 13 ohms > >> > >> Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be > >> customised > >> to > >> you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper > >> settings > >> foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. > >> Only > >> when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard > circuit. > >> > >> When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) > >> unit > >> before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Hi Andy... me again... > >>> > >>> I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick > >>> dinner and connected all, but... > >>> > >>> now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my > >>> readings/calculations: > >>> (see attached picture) > >>> again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc > >>> > > after > > > >>> an initial burst it start to fall down.. > >>> I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 > >>> > >> kHz > >> > >>> with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the > >>> "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... > >>> > >>> mumble mumble > >>> > >>> I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at > >>> 180V! > >>> > >>> Marco, IK1HSS > >>> > >>> > >>> ----Messaggio originale---- > >>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >>> Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 > >>> A: > >>> Cc: > >>> Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >>> > >>> I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there > >>> > > the > > > >>> values are different from your statement in the email. It shows > >>> primary 5 > >>> turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 > >>> > > ohms > > > >>> which > >>> is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to > >>> > > the > > > >>> ideal > >>> Rl > >>> > >>> The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high > >>> > > a > > > >> Q > >> > >>> is > >>> used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the > >>> > >> region > >> > >>> of > >>> 6. > >>> > >>> Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 > >>> Watts > >>> from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will > >>> > > end > > > >>> up > >>> with high voltage and critical tuning > >>> > >>> Andy G4JNT > >>> > >>> On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Yes. > >>>> As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that > >>>> > > the > > > >>> peak > >>> > >>>> of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER > >>>> > > than > > > >>> the peak > >>> > >>>> by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more > >>>> > >> power > >> > >>> (1.6 > >>> > >>>> times) than it was supposed to. > >>>> > >>>> So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine > >>>> component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of > >>>> > > the > > > >>>> resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to > >>>> > >> RMS- > >> > >>> sine > >>> > >>>> ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a > >>>> > >>> further > >>> > >>>> factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. > >>>> > >>>> Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux > >>>> > >> in > >> a > >> > >>>> magnetic code, V = 4.44.F.N.A.B > >>>> The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes > >>>> > > about > > > >>> from > >>> > >>>> the same sort of sine to square transform. > >>>> > >>>> Andy > >>>> > >>>> On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>> > > it> > > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the > >>>>> > > same > > > >>> of > >>> > >>>>> Vrms before FETs make their work! > >>>>> > >>>>> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! > >>>>> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with > >>>>> > > the > > > >>>>> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) > >>>>> > >>>>> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to > >>>>> > > burnout > > > >>> the > >>> > >>>>> antenna hi > >>>>> > >>>>> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy > >>>>> > >>>>> 73 Marco, IK1HSS > >>>>> ----Messaggio originale---- > >>>>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >>>>> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 > >>>>> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", > >>>>> > >>>>> Cc: > >>>>> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>> > >>>>> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output > >>>>> transformer > >>>>> doesn't look right. > >>>>> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary > >>>>> > > of > > > >>> 12 > >>> > >>>>> turns...*" > >>>>> > >>>>> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. > >>>>> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 = 229V pk-pk > >>>>> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] = 81V RMS > >>>>> > >>>>> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms > >>>>> > >> (fund) > >> = > >> > >>>>> 0.45VDC > >>>>> > >>>>> For 500 Watts out, Rload = 81 ^ 2 / 500 = 13 ohms > >>>>> > >>>>> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) = > >>>>> > >> 1.9: > >> > >>>>> 1 so > >>>>> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 > >>>>> > >>> turns > >>> > >>>>> on > >>>>> the primary > >>>>> > >>>>> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary > >>>>> > > exactly > > > >>> as > >>> > >>>>> the > >>>>> square of the voltage. > >>>>> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: > >>>>> > >>>>> 12V DC = 12V pk-pk = 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi = 5.4V RMS > >>>>> > >>> (fundamental) > >>> > >>>>> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 = 2.2 Watts > >>>>> > >>>>> check using ratio of voltages, squared : > >>>>> > >>>>> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W = 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. > >>>>> QED > >>>>> > >>>>> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 = > >>>>> > >> 78 > >> > >>>>> ohms > >>>>> > >>>>> At 40V DC == 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 = 4.1 watts > >>>>> > >> which > >> > >>> is > >>> > >>>>> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, > >>>>> > > but > > > >>> the > >>> > >>>>> low > >>>>> power is in the area of what you measured.. > >>>>> > >>>>> Andy G4JNT > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>>> > > it> > > > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Chris, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I > >>>>>> > >> had > >> > >>> no > >>> > >>>>>> success.. > >>>>>> As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the > >>>>>> attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... > >>>>>> Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and > >>>>>> suggestion are welcome! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 73, Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original message----- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it > >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 > >>>>>> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi LF, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > >>>>>> > >> of > >> > >>>>>> Andy.. > >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > >>>>>> > >> the > >> > >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you > >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is > >>>>>> > > believed > > > >> to > >> > >>> be > >>> > >>>>>> clean. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" > >>>>>> To: > >>>>>> Cc: > >>>>>> Bcc: > >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) > >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>>> Hi LF, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > >>>>>> > >> of > >> > >>>>>> Andy.. > >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > >>>>>> > >> the > >> > >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you > >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is > >>>>>> > > believed > > > >> to > >> > >>> be > >>> > >>>>>> clean. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sat Jun 3 18:18:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM,SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v53GICSF018160 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 18:18:13 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHBgT-0007dv-GS for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 17:13:49 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHBgT-0007dm-26 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 17:13:49 +0100 Received: from omr-m008e.mx.aol.com ([204.29.186.7]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHBgP-00050o-UK for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 17:13:47 +0100 Received: from mtaomg-mbe01.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mbe01.mx.aol.com [172.26.254.175]) by omr-m008e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 7CE0B3800111 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 12:13:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-acb10h.mail.aol.com (core-acb10.mail.aol.com [172.27.24.10]) by mtaomg-mbe01.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id E4EDA38000081 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 12:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 188.192.95.60 by webprd-a56.mail.aol.com (10.72.52.216) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sat, 03 Jun 2017 12:13:39 -0400 Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 12:13:39 -0400 From: Markus Vester To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-Id: <15c6ebbc89e-6102-abe63@webprd-a56.mail.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <15c6e6a8ba3.marcocadeddu@tin.it> References: <15c6e6a8ba3.marcocadeddu@tin.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: JAS STD X-Originating-IP: [188.192.95.60] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20150623; t=1496506420; bh=LclyOE0YYF44cEm09ibpSN6J95uzv4/sT5YxLEsgaNg=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=HneOipwW7jCcQTeYHF0Ae/sONkUL7VK88Vyo+s+GxyPrPL+ZwZYMlfzt9BeAgvTFJ NeT1kVCuN+wHp2pk+jOl/GcwrZh5j1A9pW6xZAy/Mwe61OC3mHXEUTo1gz4vC2pmaD ZCGYWFxieRXdz4dSR6VZ1bhz5YaaQC1sgamHLU5g= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1afeaf5932e0332dba X-Scan-Signature: 39d0aa3a8a50eef73e9de70bcfcadb32 Subject: Re: LF: For today the FETs survived... - not enough gate voltage? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_750995_971194941.1496506419356" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11868 ------=_Part_750995_971194941.1496506419356 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Marco, looking at your schematic, I think the gate drive may be too low. Ideally t= he driver will make 12 V peak-peak, or +-6V at the gate (probably slightly = less in reality, e.g. 5 V). This may not be enough to turn the FETs fully o= n. So when increasing the drain suppy voltage beyond a certain limit, they = will go out of saturation and limit the available output current. In that c= ase you won't get more output power but only much more dissipation. Also th= e output impedance will go from low (voltage-source) to high (current-sourc= e), which could explain the changing frequency response.=20 I would recommend to double the turns ratio of the gate transformer (e.g. 1= 0:20:20). 73, Markus (DF6NM) -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: marcocadeddu An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Sa, 3. Jun 2017 16:46 Betreff: R: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Hi Stefan, and thank you :-) so you have too something to mumble while sending=20 VLF SMS ;-) There is nothing really new.. I started from an avalable=20 chassis with on board a PS giving 180Vdc (1200W) and assembled the=20 Andy's half bridge 700W switching PA and before give it the full power=20 I'm checking with lower DC supply. Attached you see the schematic with=20 some change at the moment.. The output xfmr has 7T/19T, the coil of the guard circuit is not=20 connected (now is in serie with L2) and the resonating caps now are=20 5x1000pF in parallel. The aim is finally with 180Vdc of supply have an output of 0,5=C3=B71kW=20 but.... as you probably red in the previous messages, from 10 to 30Vdc=20 the PA runs, at low power of course (up to 15W), and complies the=20 calculations; with supply between 30 and 50 Vdc the output go down to a=20 couple of W. I made several trials it the last days, changing the core of the xfmr,=20 the turn ratio, the kind of capacitators but nothing changes (or at=20 least the change are within a fraction of dB). that's the sad history Stefan... All thoughts and suggestions are welcome! (including go to fish ;-)) ) Marco ... ------=_Part_750995_971194941.1496506419356 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Marco,

looking at your schematic, I think the = gate drive may be too low. Ideally the driver will make 12 V peak-peak, or = +-6V at the gate (probably slightly less in reality, e.g. 5 V). This may no= t be enough to turn the FETs fully on. So when increasing the drain suppy v= oltage beyond a certain limit, they will go out of saturation and limit the= available output current. In that case you won't get more output powe= r but only much more dissipation. Also the output impedance will = go from low (voltage-source) to high (current-source), which could&nbs= p;explain the changing frequency response.

I would recommend to&nbs= p;double the turns ratio of the gate transformer (e.g. 10:20:20).

73= , Markus (DF6NM)

-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: ma= rcocadeddu <marcocadeddu@tin.it>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_gro= up@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: Sa, 3. Jun 2017 16:46
Betreff: R: R= e: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived...

Hi Ste= fan,

and thank you :-) so you have too something to mumble while sen= ding
VLF SMS ;-)
There is nothing really new.. I started from an ava= lable
chassis with on board a PS giving 180Vdc (1200W) and assembled th= e
Andy's half bridge 700W switching PA and before give it the full powe= r
I'm checking with lower DC supply. Attached you see the schematic wit= h
some change at the moment..
The output xfmr has 7T/19T, the coil o= f the guard circuit is not
connected (now is in serie with L2) and the = resonating caps now are
5x1000pF in parallel.
The aim is finally wit= h 180Vdc of supply have an output of 0,5=C3=B71kW
but.... as you probab= ly red in the previous messages, from 10 to 30Vdc
the PA runs, at low p= ower of course (up to 15W), and complies the
calculations; with supply = between 30 and 50 Vdc the output go down to a
couple of W.
I made se= veral trials it the last days, changing the core of the xfmr,
the turn = ratio, the kind of capacitators but nothing changes (or at
least the ch= ange are within a fraction of dB).

that's the sad history Stefan...<= br>All thoughts and suggestions are welcome! (including go to fish ;-)) )Marco

...

------=_Part_750995_971194941.1496506419356-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sat Jun 3 18:33:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v53GXFuc018214 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 18:33:16 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHBv1-0007mZ-T4 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 17:28:51 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHBv1-0007mQ-Du for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 17:28:51 +0100 Received: from mail-lf0-x22c.google.com ([2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHBuy-00054p-FY for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 17:28:50 +0100 Received: by mail-lf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id c184so50597509lfe.2 for ; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 09:28:48 -0700 (PDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ujOgzPfUQ5ymVNYBQBTJS4noJ7vrV8YaIlEwtFF/jGQ=; b=RTge1WI1V+/lPtORmNPvEF6pIAQ/M8lnPLcetCf1QBGZXPtaY2yIo5/zztF7q3IjRo FBPkI+dvni1tsCPZCaoxucLo9ExcLqzI02ymhxfO0LH8qeLMjiCrRkNWW7dUENUOGv/l ZXV6N4mtPvvbCskJ6ksINuhUh1HqV61OTvFaTzlhTxloUjd/b0QFJJA5adRkcAjBASoS sER03t+r9wahYP/+26bX3YpS2wzHcW3mD02tKzF5xesjVwlzJD+odjmLm9om3No/fNQa BcgRU3eUHDLo6Xx+GJM5T4jgSy8g7QUS9Hbv5LiuNMmCG56mqm3/Z/zLtcLPJLeH9R0M 4qPw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ujOgzPfUQ5ymVNYBQBTJS4noJ7vrV8YaIlEwtFF/jGQ=; b=EnPQejxBYMM/Z3vCyNxeTtyLbtYCHBYkdTNfMO9ZJcK7QPehXK32x0Myhc3v9mGV24 k4wQjJLujosZo0Xwv/+BqGtkj0mAMXsIr6CKfP0ojLcFBljnp6dkzheWSSGC8ynDBAEq dx103V0DSrbvk8RLvKMf+9WKpNO7trscUTCLeCi0f2Haaa2njFhhhQZG+1sO6lDpABe3 B3WvrKSILUp2H9X1RXwHhPxRDxYgDPudfzFpTsK85rKevs7vKw7GuygPl7GHE0bN8W4e /VoiZEsdkadmy8fsq/MaXd0MJGo1HomKfUxMR8xBqBzzOguCNp2PErLEU5Erx8RBP8Kr 90rA== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcDPPFidx8A541aJXVqhf0a/PNmUKrpspTNIPTaJEuCrU5sWiS9Y oHX75N/8c4Lm4Zdz00lo+0g36xSqbg== X-Received: by 10.25.217.66 with SMTP id q63mr4220808lfg.89.1496507326320; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 09:28:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.156.13 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 09:28:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <15c6ebbc89e-6102-abe63@webprd-a56.mail.aol.com> References: <15c6e6a8ba3.marcocadeddu@tin.it> <15c6ebbc89e-6102-abe63@webprd-a56.mail.aol.com> From: Andy Talbot Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 17:28:45 +0100 Message-ID: To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Scan-Signature: c8ff00257edaad8e124ab9389da9609a Subject: Re: LF: For today the FETs survived... - not enough gate voltage? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c184b1496d52f055110c30f" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11869 --94eb2c184b1496d52f055110c30f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting thought. Checked my own design (the QEX article is the only remaining documentation!) and checked I also have a 1:1+1 driver transformer. But I do use a 15V rail for the driver, so +/- 7.5V which is a bit more than Marco's But never considered that ... Andy G4JNT On 3 June 2017 at 17:13, Markus Vester wrote: > Hi Marco, > > looking at your schematic, I think the gate drive may be too low. Ideally > the driver will make 12 V peak-peak, or +-6V at the gate (probably slight= ly > less in reality, e.g. 5 V). This may not be enough to turn the FETs fully > on. So when increasing the drain suppy voltage beyond a certain limit, th= ey > will go out of saturation and limit the available output current. In that > case you won't get more output power but only much more dissipation. Also > the output impedance will go from low (voltage-source) to high > (current-source), which could explain the changing frequency response. > > I would recommend to double the turns ratio of the gate transformer (e.g. > 10:20:20). > > 73, Markus (DF6NM) > > -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung----- > Von: marcocadeddu > An: rsgb_lf_group > Verschickt: Sa, 3. Jun 2017 16:46 > Betreff: R: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Hi Stefan, > > and thank you :-) so you have too something to mumble while sending > VLF SMS ;-) > There is nothing really new.. I started from an avalable > chassis with on board a PS giving 180Vdc (1200W) and assembled the > Andy's half bridge 700W switching PA and before give it the full power > I'm checking with lower DC supply. Attached you see the schematic with > some change at the moment.. > The output xfmr has 7T/19T, the coil of the guard circuit is not > connected (now is in serie with L2) and the resonating caps now are > 5x1000pF in parallel. > The aim is finally with 180Vdc of supply have an output of 0,5=C3=B71kW > but.... as you probably red in the previous messages, from 10 to 30Vdc > the PA runs, at low power of course (up to 15W), and complies the > calculations; with supply between 30 and 50 Vdc the output go down to a > couple of W. > I made several trials it the last days, changing the core of the xfmr, > the turn ratio, the kind of capacitators but nothing changes (or at > least the change are within a fraction of dB). > > that's the sad history Stefan... > All thoughts and suggestions are welcome! (including go to fish ;-)) ) > Marco > > ... > > --94eb2c184b1496d52f055110c30f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Interesting thought.

Checked my own design (t= he QEX article is the only remaining documentation!) and checked I =C2=A0al= so have a 1:1+1 driver transformer.
But I do use a 15V rail for t= he driver, so +/- 7.5V which is a bit more than Marco's

<= /div>
But never considered that ...

Andy =C2= =A0G4JNT


On 3 June 2017 at 17:13, Markus Vester <markusvester@aol.co= m> wrote:
Hi M= arco,

looking at your schematic, I think the gate drive may be too l= ow. Ideally the driver will make 12 V peak-peak, or +-6V at the gate (proba= bly slightly less in reality, e.g. 5 V). This may not be enough to turn the= FETs fully on. So when increasing the drain suppy voltage beyond a certain= limit, they will go out of saturation and limit the available output curre= nt. In that case you won't get=C2=A0more output power but only=C2=A0muc= h more=C2=A0dissipation. Also the output impedance will go from low (voltag= e-source)=C2=A0to high (current-source), which could=C2=A0explain the chang= ing frequency response.

I would recommend to=C2=A0double the turns = ratio of the gate transformer (e.g. 10:20:20).

73, Markus (DF6NM)
-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: marcocadeddu <marcocadeddu@tin.it>
An: rsgb_lf_group <
rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: S= a, 3. Jun 2017 16:46
Betreff: R: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the= FETs survived...

Hi Stefan,

and thank you :-) so you h= ave too something to mumble while sending
VLF SMS ;-)
There is nothi= ng really new.. I started from an avalable
chassis with on board a PS g= iving 180Vdc (1200W) and assembled the
Andy's half bridge 700W swit= ching PA and before give it the full power
I'm checking with lower = DC supply. Attached you see the schematic with
some change at the momen= t..
The output xfmr has 7T/19T, the coil of the guard circuit is not connected (now is in serie with L2) and the resonating caps now are
5x= 1000pF in parallel.
The aim is finally with 180Vdc of supply have an out= put of 0,5=C3=B71kW
but.... as you probably red in the previous message= s, from 10 to 30Vdc
the PA runs, at low power of course (up to 15W), an= d complies the
calculations; with supply between 30 and 50 Vdc the outp= ut go down to a
couple of W.
I made several trials it the last days,= changing the core of the xfmr,
the turn ratio, the kind of capacitator= s but nothing changes (or at
least the change are within a fraction of = dB).

that's the sad history Stefan...
All thoughts and sugges= tions are welcome! (including go to fish ;-)) )
Marco

...

=

--94eb2c184b1496d52f055110c30f-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sat Jun 3 19:03:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v53H3OhY018320 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 19:03:26 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHCOa-0007xa-Vm for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 17:59:24 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHCOa-0007xR-JQ for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 17:59:24 +0100 Received: from smtp2web.tin.it ([212.216.176.236]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHCOX-0005AE-MG for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 17:59:23 +0100 Received: from feu4 (10.192.64.14) by smtp2web.tin.it (8.6.060.43) id 5822EBD203B2BB0F for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 18:59:20 +0200 Received: from (80.182.160.35) by wmlighttin.pc.tim.it; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 18:59:20 +0200 Message-ID: <15c6ee59c21.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 18:59:20 +0200 (CEST) From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 80.182.160.35 X-Scan-Signature: 17343f7e400f1005b5081acbd4115359 Subject: R: Re: LF: For today the FETs survived... - not enough gate voltage? Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lipkowski.org id v53H3OhY018320 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11870 Thank you Marcus: haahaa also you kept in council :-) After fighting to place the oscillo probes on the gates which are a bit hidden... (this could be an improvement area...) the square wave is swinging from -5 to +8V with respect to ground. please don't ask me to measure between source and gate! ;-) So it should be enough to switch the IRF460As Marco ----Messaggio originale---- Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com Data: 3-giu-2017 18.28 A: Ogg: Re: LF: For today the FETs survived... - not enough gate voltage? Interesting thought. Checked my own design (the QEX article is the only remaining documentation!) and checked I also have a 1:1+1 driver transformer. But I do use a 15V rail for the driver, so +/- 7.5V which is a bit more than Marco's But never considered that ... Andy G4JNT On 3 June 2017 at 17:13, Markus Vester wrote: > Hi Marco, > > looking at your schematic, I think the gate drive may be too low. Ideally > the driver will make 12 V peak-peak, or +-6V at the gate (probably slightly > less in reality, e.g. 5 V). This may not be enough to turn the FETs fully > on. So when increasing the drain suppy voltage beyond a certain limit, they > will go out of saturation and limit the available output current. In that > case you won't get more output power but only much more dissipation. Also > the output impedance will go from low (voltage-source) to high > (current-source), which could explain the changing frequency response. > > I would recommend to double the turns ratio of the gate transformer (e.g. > 10:20:20). > > 73, Markus (DF6NM) > > -----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung----- > Von: marcocadeddu > An: rsgb_lf_group > Verschickt: Sa, 3. Jun 2017 16:46 > Betreff: R: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Hi Stefan, > > and thank you :-) so you have too something to mumble while sending > VLF SMS ;-) > There is nothing really new.. I started from an avalable > chassis with on board a PS giving 180Vdc (1200W) and assembled the > Andy's half bridge 700W switching PA and before give it the full power > I'm checking with lower DC supply. Attached you see the schematic with > some change at the moment.. > The output xfmr has 7T/19T, the coil of the guard circuit is not > connected (now is in serie with L2) and the resonating caps now are > 5x1000pF in parallel. > The aim is finally with 180Vdc of supply have an output of 0,5÷1kW > but.... as you probably red in the previous messages, from 10 to 30Vdc > the PA runs, at low power of course (up to 15W), and complies the > calculations; with supply between 30 and 50 Vdc the output go down to a > couple of W. > I made several trials it the last days, changing the core of the xfmr, > the turn ratio, the kind of capacitators but nothing changes (or at > least the change are within a fraction of dB). > > that's the sad history Stefan... > All thoughts and suggestions are welcome! (including go to fish ;-)) ) > Marco > > ... > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sat Jun 3 19:24:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v53HOofH018411 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 19:24:51 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHCjk-000888-DG for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 18:21:16 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHCjj-00087z-RD for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 18:21:15 +0100 Received: from porthos.netcom.co.uk ([217.72.171.73]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHCjh-0005Fe-47 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 18:21:14 +0100 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=abelian.org Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=abelian.org ; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=NbiQ39e7ATGgF1wa5pxYgtU3Pdav03+/s/arzjYG3ac=; b=BZ8pChv7vQhuWMqFHNB3Bo+lh7 cuZ7X+lv5NYEDk4/vTLtiC7lavncU/eXBXoRNPKA3UKI1AdHo/JfpG7Ik1KRjGMb4Q2IaCwmfcy4Y Rd/xbj45JolClg69F+145YJ093MlRywD7/7OfnAHwOY864bmcRhop7pDV6to1LRr/j7g=; Received: from i-194-106-52-83.freedom2surf.net ([194.106.52.83]:52755 helo=pn.abelian.org) by porthos.netcom.co.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHCjf-0003ne-2e for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 18:21:11 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pn.abelian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 715A040070D for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 17:21:10 +0000 (UTC) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <592F348B.8060302@posteo.de> <592FCDC3.1050005@posteo.de> From: Paul Nicholson Message-ID: <3d5f2173-e648-212d-9bab-4dc40fc812a3@abelian.org> Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 17:21:10 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <592FCDC3.1050005@posteo.de> X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - porthos.netcom.co.uk X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - blacksheep.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - abelian.org X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: porthos.netcom.co.uk: authenticated_id: catchall@abelian.org X-Authenticated-Sender: porthos.netcom.co.uk: catchall@abelian.org X-Scan-Signature: 4e3b1488273adbbe9757d6bdd5adf219 Subject: Re: VLF: tonite... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11871 Stefan schrieb: > f = 6470.100000 Hz > Start time: 31.May.2017 21:00:00 UTC > Symbol period: 20 s > Characters: 8 > CRC bits: 4 > Coding 16K21A > Duration: 6h, 24min > ...for some reason the PSK stopped after about 5 hours No decode from this one. > f = 6470.100000 Hz > Start time: 03.Jun.2017 3:00:00 UTC > Symbol period: 24 s > Characters: 7 > CRC bits: 5 > Coding 16K21A Copied a famous name, +8.2 dB with constant reference. carrier S/N: 24.23 dB in 38.9 uHz, -19.88 dB in 1Hz, -53.86 dB in 2.5kHz An easy decode. -- Paul Nicholson -- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sat Jun 3 20:39:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v53Id4s3018603 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 20:39:05 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHDsS-0008Pg-MZ for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 19:34:20 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHDsR-0008PX-HT for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 19:34:19 +0100 Received: from smtp1web.tin.it ([212.216.176.195]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHDsN-0005Px-I9 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 19:34:18 +0100 Received: from feu20 (10.192.64.30) by smtp1web.tin.it (8.6.060.43) id 58893FFA02911E72 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 20:34:13 +0200 Received: from (80.182.160.35) by wmlighttin.pc.tim.it; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 20:34:13 +0200 Message-ID: <15c6f3c7a93.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 20:34:13 +0200 (CEST) From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 80.182.160.35 X-Scan-Signature: 78faf2d2930c2b9a76e21bdf56002b96 Subject: R: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lipkowski.org id v53Id4s3018603 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11872 mmmmmmm Thanks Markus, Alan, Andy: I found something that unfortunately needs to unbild some parts before to change and hopefully fix... After check of the dummyload, directionalcoupler, attenuator and selective voltmeter, was time to check signals to the gates. After fight to engage the probes to the gate, first of all checked with no supply waveforms and wave amplitudes and previously reported it was ok. Then power on! 10Vdc ok 20Vdc ok 30 Vdc ok from 30 to 40 Vdc waveforms were changing: on one gate the square started to be smoothed on a corner, on the other gate the top of the square from flat was changing into a saddle and at 50Vdc the saddle transformed into 3 peaks! I tilted the PA and was looking around.. the chip was a bit warm and touching around nothing changed. Ouch!!!! I touched the xfmr and it was very hot!!! down with supply and let it getting cold. Then again 10Vdc for 5 minutes all OK 20Vdc for 5 minutes all OK 30Vdc for 5 minutes all OK 35Vdc and after a while the binocular core was warming up and the waveforms to the gates deteriorating.. some more volts and it was again very hot. So now I have to find another core, wind the new transformer and connect to the gates (this will be the annoying phase..) So I guess that Markus was not wrong in some ways, changing the supply makes some change on the FETs and the core of the driver xfmr saturates.. More news later on this channel Marco ----Messaggio originale---- Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com Data: 3-giu-2017 17.21 A: Ogg: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... There is a famous quote by Sherlock Holmes that goes "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." You have shown by your substitutions that the drop-off in power cannot be the ferrite core or the the capacitors. So they now become "the impossible". What remains, however improbable, are the FETs, and something else. The FETs are well within their ratings and at low power are giving the expected output, so it is more than likely they are behaving properly so look for other improbables first There is something else that could become an "improbable". What are you using to measure the power output? And is it your ONLY means of measuring the RF level. Could this be failing at the higher RF? I have seen a diode detector do something similar as the reverse voltage across the diode reaches breakdown. Some small Schottky diodes can do this at surprisingly low voltages, so if you haven't checked their specification before use... If you use a power meter, is it designed for use this low in frequency? If not, the LF could be heating something. Check and see if the DC changes with the power fall-off. If DC power stays the same and indicated RF falls, that points very definitely to the sensor / detector. IF DC falls with the RF, it suggests FETS or something early on. If not FETS and not the RF measurement - there is even less left to look at - so consider other "improbables". There won't be many left by now. Could there be some kind of feedback into the driver - unlikely but you're eliminating the impossibles one-by-one Andy G4JNT On 3 June 2017 at 15:44, marcocadeddu@tin.it wrote: > Hi Stefan, > > and thank you :-) so you have too something to mumble while sending > VLF SMS ;-) > There is nothing really new.. I started from an avalable > chassis with on board a PS giving 180Vdc (1200W) and assembled the > Andy's half bridge 700W switching PA and before give it the full power > I'm checking with lower DC supply. Attached you see the schematic with > some change at the moment.. > The output xfmr has 7T/19T, the coil of the guard circuit is not > connected (now is in serie with L2) and the resonating caps now are > 5x1000pF in parallel. > The aim is finally with 180Vdc of supply have an output of 0,5÷1kW > but.... as you probably red in the previous messages, from 10 to 30Vdc > the PA runs, at low power of course (up to 15W), and complies the > calculations; with supply between 30 and 50 Vdc the output go down to a > couple of W. > I made several trials it the last days, changing the core of the xfmr, > the turn ratio, the kind of capacitators but nothing changes (or at > least the change are within a fraction of dB). > > that's the sad history Stefan... > All thoughts and suggestions are welcome! (including go to fish ;-)) ) > Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: selberdenken@posteo.de > Data: 3-giu-2017 16.19 > A: > Ogg: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Hi Marco, > > If you like, i can help you. Just need a schematic to see what you > want > to do. Targer power, voltage, etc... > > 73, Stefan > > Am 03.06.2017 16:02, schrieb marcocadeddu@tin.it: > > Hi Alan, Andy, Chris, > > > > I replaced the caps in the output LC with WIMA FKP1, the 2 caps wich > > replaces the missing half of the bridge are still Cornell Dubillier > > 940C serie (rated at 9A @100kHz), so now all the caps are pulse rated > > but... > > I regret to admit it, nothing changed :-(( > > Power out increases from 10 to 30Vdc and at 40Vdc after a first pulse > > the power slowly decreases till a couple of watts.. > > > > Just to check another thing: being the coil of the guard circuit > > disconnected, I jointed the 2 coils together (they are wound on the > > same support) increasing so the inductance of the L (25T more). Of > > course I had to retune and now I need C in the range of 5000pF but > this > > narrowed the 3dB bandwidth of the LC from abt 15kHz to abt 8kHz so is > > the Q increased! > > > > ... I should visit Decathlon and look for a fishing rod! > > > > your sincerely depressed IK1HSS > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > > Data: 2-giu-2017 15.58 > > A: > > Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > Hi Marco, I may well be wrong I was experimenting with 150W at 35V I > > measured 12 to 15A through the capacitors (from memory) .......the > > confirmation is that the change is permanent. I dont remember seeing > > any > > heating effects. Single ended Class E may be considerably different > to > > H-bridge. The currents a lower power will be less, about 1.5A or so > > (??) I > > am not sure it that would produce damage, but you would certainly see > > it as > > the power increased. > > > > Good Luck with it > > Alan > > G3NYK > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 2:00 PM > > Subject: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > > > Hi Alan, > > > > and thanks for joining :-) > > it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of "high > > currents".. > > The PA is an half bridge like > > Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these problem > > trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W).. > > Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested just in > case > > my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. > > 73 Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > > Data: 2-giu-2017 14.36 > > A: > > Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > Hi Marco I dont know where you are putting the caps but I am assuming > > they > > are passing a high RF corrent. I found that the old style (valve) > high > > voltage caps in my Class E test rig changed capacitance permanently > > during > > and after a run (capacitance reduced). I assumed that the current was > > fusing > > the foil connection to the lead-out wires. When using "pulse rated" > > capacitors as used in SMPSUs I had no further capacitance change > > problems. > > The ones I have are RIFA PHE 428 2000v from RS Components. I think > > Farnell > > do a WIMA equivalent. > > > > Best Wishes > > Alan > > G3NYK > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:06 PM > > Subject: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > > > now my thoughts are even more confused.... > > Hi Andy, me again.... > > after a long night of meditation, I remembered I had a bounch of old > > style mica capacitators 1000pF 1000V.. > > I put > > 9 of them in parallel to get the closer value to the 8800pF I had > > before. > > Of course the resonance moved a bit and now is on 134.5 kHz with 3dB > > bandwidth of 9 kHz (Q=15 I know is a bit to high..) so carried out > some > > tests on 134 kHz (of course on the dummyload) all without guard > circuit > > 1st test xfmr 7T/19T (Ae197mm² R50 mat T38): 2Wout @10Vdc; 6,5 > > Wout@20Vdc; 13,7Wout@30Vdc stable.. @40Vdc after a quick peak the > power > > slowly goes down till below 1W! > > 2nd test I had still on hands the previous xfmr 5T/12T (Ae197mm² same > > core as 1st test) so was worth to make a trial... same trend :-( for > > Vdc> 30V after a first peak... it goes down. > > I had another core available with different material (N30, Ae 154mm² > > R58) so I prepared a new xfmr with this core 7T/14T: > > 1,4Wout@10Vdc; 4,6Wout@20Vdc; 9,2Wout@30Vdc .... at 40Vdc a short > burst > > with almost 15Wout and then down down down... :-(((((( > > > > I noticed a difference in comparison to your project: you connected > the > > + and - rails to ground via 10nF and here I used 100nF caps could it > > explain this behaviour? > > > > 73 Marco > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.20 > > A: > > Ogg: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > that was also my thought.. but they run at room temperature: the > > resonance is obtained with 4 polyesther 2200 pF 2000 Vdc caps. the > > classic boxes 25x15x5mm > > > > Marco > > > > ---- > > Messaggio originale---- > > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.03 > > A: > > Ogg: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like > > capacitors > > heating up and changing its value. I can't think of any other > > component > > that will change with dissipation / heating. What type of capacitor > > are > > you using in the tank? > > > > Andy > > > > > > On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > wrote: > > > > > >> anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing > >> flowers? > >> > >> Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that > >> some effects in this area are present. > >> > >> I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected > >> simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. > >> The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output > >> > > is > > > >> stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output > >> starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at > 40 > >> and 50V. > >> The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts > from > >> 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. > >> > >> I need a long weekend of meditation... > >> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >> > >> > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > >> Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > >> Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 > >> A: > >> Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >> > >> Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D > >> > >> yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward > >> > > the > > > >> PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) > >> > >> the PS should > >> provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for > >> > > 20A > > > >> @ 25°C (13A @ 100°C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try ;-) > >> > >> I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level > >> where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm²Ae: if I > >> am > >> not totally wrong B should be< 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the > >> > > primary > > > >> Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel > is > >> running in its cage ;-) > >> > >> Thanks again for assistence > >> > >> Marco IK1HSS > >> > >> > >> > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >> Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 > >> A: > >> Cc: > >> Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >> > >> 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance > of > >> 6.8 > >> ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't > >> think > >> you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more > >> realistic. > >> > >> As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very > >> wrong. > >> I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core > >> > > Ae, > > > >> but > >> lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. > >> > >> V = 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax > >> > > of > > > >> 0.1 > >> that suggests 85V RMS. > >> Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . > >> Before > >> a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload = 13 ohms > >> > >> Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be > >> customised > >> to > >> you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper > >> settings > >> foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. > >> Only > >> when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard > circuit. > >> > >> When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) > >> unit > >> before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Hi Andy... me again... > >>> > >>> I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick > >>> dinner and connected all, but... > >>> > >>> now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my > >>> readings/calculations: > >>> (see attached picture) > >>> again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc > >>> > > after > > > >>> an initial burst it start to fall down.. > >>> I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 > >>> > >> kHz > >> > >>> with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the > >>> "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... > >>> > >>> mumble mumble > >>> > >>> I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at > >>> 180V! > >>> > >>> Marco, IK1HSS > >>> > >>> > >>> ----Messaggio originale---- > >>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >>> Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 > >>> A: > >>> Cc: > >>> Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >>> > >>> I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there > >>> > > the > > > >>> values are different from your statement in the email. It shows > >>> primary 5 > >>> turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 > >>> > > ohms > > > >>> which > >>> is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to > >>> > > the > > > >>> ideal > >>> Rl > >>> > >>> The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high > >>> > > a > > > >> Q > >> > >>> is > >>> used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the > >>> > >> region > >> > >>> of > >>> 6. > >>> > >>> Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 > >>> Watts > >>> from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will > >>> > > end > > > >>> up > >>> with high voltage and critical tuning > >>> > >>> Andy G4JNT > >>> > >>> On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Yes. > >>>> As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that > >>>> > > the > > > >>> peak > >>> > >>>> of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER > >>>> > > than > > > >>> the peak > >>> > >>>> by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more > >>>> > >> power > >> > >>> (1.6 > >>> > >>>> times) than it was supposed to. > >>>> > >>>> So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine > >>>> component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of > >>>> > > the > > > >>>> resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to > >>>> > >> RMS- > >> > >>> sine > >>> > >>>> ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a > >>>> > >>> further > >>> > >>>> factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. > >>>> > >>>> Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux > >>>> > >> in > >> a > >> > >>>> magnetic code, V = 4.44.F.N.A.B > >>>> The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes > >>>> > > about > > > >>> from > >>> > >>>> the same sort of sine to square transform. > >>>> > >>>> Andy > >>>> > >>>> On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>> > > it> > > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the > >>>>> > > same > > > >>> of > >>> > >>>>> Vrms before FETs make their work! > >>>>> > >>>>> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! > >>>>> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with > >>>>> > > the > > > >>>>> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) > >>>>> > >>>>> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to > >>>>> > > burnout > > > >>> the > >>> > >>>>> antenna hi > >>>>> > >>>>> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy > >>>>> > >>>>> 73 Marco, IK1HSS > >>>>> ----Messaggio originale---- > >>>>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >>>>> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 > >>>>> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", > >>>>> > >>>>> Cc: > >>>>> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>> > >>>>> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output > >>>>> transformer > >>>>> doesn't look right. > >>>>> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary > >>>>> > > of > > > >>> 12 > >>> > >>>>> turns...*" > >>>>> > >>>>> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. > >>>>> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 = 229V pk-pk > >>>>> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] = 81V RMS > >>>>> > >>>>> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms > >>>>> > >> (fund) > >> = > >> > >>>>> 0.45VDC > >>>>> > >>>>> For 500 Watts out, Rload = 81 ^ 2 / 500 = 13 ohms > >>>>> > >>>>> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) = > >>>>> > >> 1.9: > >> > >>>>> 1 so > >>>>> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 > >>>>> > >>> turns > >>> > >>>>> on > >>>>> the primary > >>>>> > >>>>> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary > >>>>> > > exactly > > > >>> as > >>> > >>>>> the > >>>>> square of the voltage. > >>>>> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: > >>>>> > >>>>> 12V DC = 12V pk-pk = 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi = 5.4V RMS > >>>>> > >>> (fundamental) > >>> > >>>>> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 = 2.2 Watts > >>>>> > >>>>> check using ratio of voltages, squared : > >>>>> > >>>>> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W = 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. > >>>>> QED > >>>>> > >>>>> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 = > >>>>> > >> 78 > >> > >>>>> ohms > >>>>> > >>>>> At 40V DC == 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 = 4.1 watts > >>>>> > >> which > >> > >>> is > >>> > >>>>> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, > >>>>> > > but > > > >>> the > >>> > >>>>> low > >>>>> power is in the area of what you measured.. > >>>>> > >>>>> Andy G4JNT > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>>> > > it> > > > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Chris, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I > >>>>>> > >> had > >> > >>> no > >>> > >>>>>> success.. > >>>>>> As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the > >>>>>> attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... > >>>>>> Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and > >>>>>> suggestion are welcome! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 73, Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original message----- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it > >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 > >>>>>> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi LF, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > >>>>>> > >> of > >> > >>>>>> Andy.. > >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > >>>>>> > >> the > >> > >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you > >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is > >>>>>> > > believed > > > >> to > >> > >>> be > >>> > >>>>>> clean. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" > >>>>>> To: > >>>>>> Cc: > >>>>>> Bcc: > >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) > >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>>> Hi LF, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > >>>>>> > >> of > >> > >>>>>> Andy.. > >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > >>>>>> > >> the > >> > >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you > >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is > >>>>>> > > believed > > > >> to > >> > >>> be > >>> > >>>>>> clean. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sat Jun 3 21:47:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v53JlNAe018912 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 21:47:24 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHExA-0000EW-LH for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 20:43:16 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHEx2-0000EN-L8 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 20:43:08 +0100 Received: from omr-a012e.mx.aol.com ([204.29.186.61]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHEwz-0005Zo-Ej for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 20:43:07 +0100 Received: from mtaomg-aaj01.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-aaj01.mx.aol.com [172.27.3.207]) by omr-a012e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 54B103800096 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 15:43:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-acb10h.mail.aol.com (core-acb10.mail.aol.com [172.27.24.10]) by mtaomg-aaj01.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 198D038000087 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 15:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 188.192.95.60 by webprd-a32.mail.aol.com (10.72.52.206) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sat, 03 Jun 2017 15:43:01 -0400 Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 15:43:01 -0400 From: Markus Vester To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-Id: <15c6f7b785b-15f2-2cdba@webprd-a32.mail.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <3d5f2173-e648-212d-9bab-4dc40fc812a3@abelian.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: JAS STD X-Originating-IP: [188.192.95.60] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20150623; t=1496518983; bh=sNq/Khd25U+3gCe8iuuQd+I9pZevD1G1V8SiMkxm8zg=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=4BDZcsMlFu0aLk3DIC1xLNlbfIPO/hLHQ46vjpuMMPdmDF2cGLn+Hsm0aNeDm/D3o oWcS2kny6PhekuPGPWBWIp8Ex4d4vD/YkxpaQqPhcCD2Ot7UC7geIB2/b4agQ0eMw/ FM+f4k9JNEB06bUHBuUwn743Fgy5hx37VnLycyLM= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1b03cf593311461e21 X-Scan-Signature: 0b36c952c26be93e626fe2fa1c93657f Subject: Re: VLF: tonite... Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_225011_936905113.1496518981720" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11873 ------=_Part_225011_936905113.1496518981720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Last night's 7-character message was also copied successfully at DL0AO in A= mberg: Cardioid antenna 237=C2=B0 (~SW): Eb/N0 =3D 5.7 dB / 5.2 dB (symbol errors = / carrier) Omnidirectional E-field probe: Eb/N0 =3D 3.1 dB / 2.2 dB Best 73, Markus -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: Paul Nicholson An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Sa, 3. Jun 2017 19:22 Betreff: Re: VLF: tonite... Stefan schrieb: > f =3D 6470.100000 Hz > Start time: 31.May.2017 21:00:00 UTC > Symbol period: 20 s > Characters: 8 > CRC bits: 4 > Coding 16K21A > Duration: 6h, 24min > ...for some reason the PSK stopped after about 5 hours No decode from this one. > f =3D 6470.100000 Hz > Start time: 03.Jun.2017 3:00:00 UTC > Symbol period: 24 s > Characters: 7 > CRC bits: 5 > Coding 16K21A Copied a famous name, +8.2 dB with constant reference. carrier S/N: 24.23 dB in 38.9 uHz, -19.88 dB in 1Hz, -53.86 dB in 2.5kHz An easy decode. -- Paul Nicholson -- ------=_Part_225011_936905113.1496518981720 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Last night's 7-character message was also copied success= fully at DL0AO in Amberg:

Cardioid antenna 237=C2=B0 (~SW): Eb/= N0 =3D 5.7 dB / 5.2 dB (symbol errors / carrier)
Omnidirectional E-field= probe: Eb/N0 =3D 3.1 dB / 2.2 dB

Best 73,
Markus
-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: Paul Nicholson <vlf04= 03@abelian.org>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>= ;
Verschickt: Sa, 3. Jun 2017 19:22
Betreff: Re: VLF: tonite...

Stefan schrieb:

> f =3D 6470.100000 Hz
> Star= t time: 31.May.2017 21:00:00 UTC
> Symbol period: 20 s
> Ch= aracters: 8
> CRC bits: 4
> Coding 16K21A
> Duration: = 6h, 24min

> ...for some reason the PSK stopped after about 5 hou= rs

No decode from this one.

> f =3D 6470.100000 Hz
&g= t; Start time: 03.Jun.2017 3:00:00 UTC
> Symbol period: 24 s
&= gt; Characters: 7
> CRC bits: 5
> Coding 16K21A

Copied= a famous name, +8.2 dB with constant reference.

carrier S/N: 24.23 = dB in 38.9 uHz,
-19.88 dB in 1Hz,
-53.86 dB= in 2.5kHz

An easy decode.

--
Paul Nicholson
--

=
------=_Part_225011_936905113.1496518981720-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sat Jun 3 22:33:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=3 Fuz1=3 Fuz2=3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v53KXh7L019086 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 22:33:44 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHFgA-0000UL-US for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 21:29:46 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHFgA-0000UC-EB for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 21:29:46 +0100 Received: from lethe.lipkowski.org ([178.32.151.135] helo=lipkowski.org) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHFg7-0005go-C7 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 21:29:45 +0100 Received: from mailn.lipkowski.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v53KU8ua019065 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 22:30:08 +0200 Received: from localhost (sq5bpf@localhost) by mailn.lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) with ESMTP id v53KU7iG019061 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 22:30:07 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mailn.lipkowski.org: sq5bpf owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 22:30:07 +0200 (CEST) From: Jacek Lipkowski To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: <593176F7.2050407@posteo.de> Message-ID: References: <592F348B.8060302@posteo.de> <593176F7.2050407@posteo.de> User-Agent: Alpine 2.11 (DEB 23 2013-08-11) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-ID: X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 on 10.1.3.10 X-Scan-Signature: 5f132ffce194fb93f2267a462d849f2b Subject: Re: VLF: tomorrow morning... Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="17435139-1887706847-1496520958=:31885" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 11874 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --17435139-1887706847-1496520958=:31885 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-15; FORMAT=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Content-ID: Most probably copied the message on 20170603 3:00. I've cheated a bit with the -f9 option. The decode was sent to Stefan for confirmation, the message is really at the limit, so you could also call this a very lucky guess :). found rank 13961 ber 4.0858e-01 Eb/N0 -1.4 M -8.404992819e-01 [xxxxxxx] ps [ 83 -90 -60 -90 -60] carrier phase: 5.1 deg carrier Eb/N0: -4.1 dB carrier Es/N0: -18.44 dB carrier S/N: 11.87 dB in 38.9 uHz, -32.24 dB in 1Hz, -66.22 dB in 2.5kHz elapsed 1334 I will claim the decode when Stefan confirms it. VY 73 Jacek / SQ5BPF On Fri, 2 Jun 2017, DK7FC wrote: > Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2017 16:32:23 +0200 > From: DK7FC > Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Subject: VLF: tomorrow morning... > > Hi VLF, > > Another one for tomorrow morning: > > f = 6470.100000 Hz > Start time: 03.Jun.2017 3:00:00 UTC > Symbol period: 24 s > Characters: 7 > CRC bits: 5 > Coding 16K21A > Duration: 7h, 8min, 48 sec > Antenna current: ~ 440 mA > > 73, Stefan > --17435139-1887706847-1496520958=:31885-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sat Jun 3 23:58:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v53LwFmP019312 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 23:58:16 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHGz3-0000ni-Py for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 22:53:21 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHGyZ-0000nZ-Oj for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 22:52:51 +0100 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHGyV-0005rl-FR for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 22:52:49 +0100 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FF5220824 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 23:52:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 3wgFDr38x4z10H0 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2017 23:52:44 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <59332FAB.5040707@posteo.de> Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2017 23:52:43 +0200 From: DK7FC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <592F348B.8060302@posteo.de> <593176F7.2050407@posteo.de> In-Reply-To: X-Scan-Signature: 5f132ffce194fb93f2267a462d849f2b Subject: Re: VLF: tomorrow morning... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11875 Hello Jacek, Paul and Markus, Thanks for the decodes. I confirm the message Jacek. I really have to start with vlf-rx-tools... 73, Stefan Am 03.06.2017 22:30, schrieb Jacek Lipkowski: > Most probably copied the message on 20170603 3:00. I've cheated a bit > with the -f9 option. The decode was sent to Stefan for confirmation, > the message is really at the limit, so you could also call this a very > lucky guess :). > > found rank 13961 ber 4.0858e-01 Eb/N0 -1.4 M -8.404992819e-01 > [xxxxxxx] ps [ 83 -90 -60 -90 -60] > carrier phase: 5.1 deg > carrier Eb/N0: -4.1 dB > carrier Es/N0: -18.44 dB > carrier S/N: 11.87 dB in 38.9 uHz, -32.24 dB in 1Hz, -66.22 dB in 2.5kHz > elapsed 1334 > > I will claim the decode when Stefan confirms it. > > VY 73 > > Jacek / SQ5BPF > > On Fri, 2 Jun 2017, DK7FC wrote: > >> Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2017 16:32:23 +0200 >> From: DK7FC >> Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> Subject: VLF: tomorrow morning... >> >> Hi VLF, >> >> Another one for tomorrow morning: >> >> f = 6470.100000 Hz >> Start time: 03.Jun.2017 3:00:00 UTC >> Symbol period: 24 s >> Characters: 7 >> CRC bits: 5 >> Coding 16K21A >> Duration: 7h, 8min, 48 sec >> Antenna current: ~ 440 mA >> >> 73, Stefan >> From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jun 4 00:32:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=3 Fuz1=3 Fuz2=3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v53MWFAG019395 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 00:32:16 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHHSH-0000zD-G1 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 23:23:33 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHHRD-0000z2-3D for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 23:22:27 +0100 Received: from lethe.lipkowski.org ([178.32.151.135] helo=lipkowski.org) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHHR5-0005wn-FQ for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 23:22:21 +0100 Received: from mailn.lipkowski.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v53MMfuv019378 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 00:22:41 +0200 Received: from localhost (sq5bpf@localhost) by mailn.lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) with ESMTP id v53MMeQl019374 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 00:22:40 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mailn.lipkowski.org: sq5bpf owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 00:22:40 +0200 (CEST) From: Jacek Lipkowski To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <592F348B.8060302@posteo.de> <593176F7.2050407@posteo.de> User-Agent: Alpine 2.11 (DEB 23 2013-08-11) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-ID: X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 on 10.1.3.10 X-Scan-Signature: e4d79cc1e5beb0f7c63f6aa3ce129e10 Subject: Re: VLF: tomorrow morning... Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII; FORMAT=flowed X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11876 Hello, I'm posting the description of the decode, people which use the linux software will find it obvious, but maybe someone will find it interesting/helpful for his attemps. BTW I got Stefan's permission to disclose the message to the mailing list. The message didn't decode correctly at first with the noiseblanker settings i've used (-a2 -d0 -t 10). Tried the -f9 option: $ vtraw -oa < resampled_file | ./ebnaut -d -N7 -p 16K21A -S 24 -k 5 -r240 -c2 -PS -v -L 20000 2>&1 |tee decwy However with only 5 bits of crc there are many valid decodes: $ grep found decwy |cut -d \[ -f 2 |cut -d \] -f 1 |sort -u | wc -l 67495 67495 of unique decodes is not good, we can't sift through this manually and it will have a lot of valid looking messages. Lets cheat a bit: Paul wrote that it is a famous name, so we can hypothesize that it will be only letters: $ grep found decwy |cut -d \[ -f 2 |cut -d \] -f 1 |sort -u |egrep '^[A-Z]+$' |wc -l 352 352 is much better, i can look through all of the messages manually: $ grep found decwy |cut -d \[ -f 2 |cut -d \] -f 1 |sort -u |egrep '^[A-Z]+$' | less And the only message which makes sense is MARCONI :) I dug out the best message from the ebnaut decoder logs: found rank 13961 ber 4.0858e-01 Eb/N0 -1.4 M -8.404992819e-01 [MARCONI] ps[ 83 -90 -60 -90 -60] carrier phase: 5.1 deg carrier Eb/N0: -4.1 dB carrier Es/N0: -18.44 dB carrier S/N: 11.87 dB in 38.9 uHz, -32.24 dB in 1Hz, -66.22 dB in 2.5kHz elapsed 1334 Now let's try to find the best noiseblanker settings: PLIK2=plik_dk7fc_20170603_1_raw1 FREQ=6470.1 TT=2017-06-03_03:00:00,+25728 vtread -T$TT /mnt/rawvlf | vtfilter -h bp,f=${FREQ},w=3000 > $PLIK2 for a in 1.2 1.4 1.6 1.8 2 2.2 2.4 2.6 do for t in 10 100 do echo a=$a t=$t vtblank -v -a$a -d0 -t$t < $PLIK2 | \ vtmult -f ${FREQ} | \ vtresample -r 240 > ${PLIK2}_${a}_${t} done done This will create files called plik_dk7fc_20170603_1_raw1_XX_YY (where XX is the -a vtblank setting and YY is the -t setting). Lets go through the files and see how they match our hypothesis: $ for i in plik_dk7fc_20170603_1_raw1_*; do echo $i; vtraw -oa < $i | ./ebnaut -d -N7 -p 16K21A -S 24 -k 5 -r240 -c2 -PS -v -L 20000 -f15 -f16 -M MARCONI; echo; done ... after a lot of output this one looks best: plik_dk7fc_20170603_1_raw1_1.4_100 padded 0.267 seconds at end initial reference phase -0.2 amplitude 2.277e-02 carrier phase: 2.4 carrier Eb/N0: -2.7 dB carrier S/N: 13.28 dB in 38.9 uHz Let's try to decode the plik_dk7fc_20170603_1_raw1_1.4_100 file without the -f9 option and see how that works: $ vtraw -oa < plik_dk7fc_20170603_1_raw1_1.4_100 | ./ebnaut -d -N7 -p 16K21A -S 24 -k 5 -r240 -c2 -PS -v -L 200000 padded 0.267 seconds at end initial reference phase -0.2 amplitude 2.277e-02 prep [ 0 0 0 0 0] found rank 141 ber 4.1884e-01 Eb/N0 -2.4 M -6.664184332e-01 [MARCONI] ps [ 0 0 0 0 0] carrier phase: 2.6 deg carrier Eb/N0: -2.7 dB carrier Es/N0: -17.02 dB carrier S/N: 13.28 dB in 38.9 uHz, -30.82 dB in 1Hz, -64.80 dB in 2.5kHz elapsed 42 Yes, it works. Turns out that the best vtblank settings for this transmission were -a1.4 -d0 -t100. VY 73 Jacek / SQ5BPF From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jun 4 11:18:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v549I7Zh021229 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 11:18:08 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHRXJ-0004P2-02 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 10:09:25 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHRXH-0004Ot-LE for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 10:09:23 +0100 Received: from smtp3web.tin.it ([212.216.176.237]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHRXD-0007Qe-LE for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 10:09:22 +0100 Received: from feu11 (10.192.64.21) by smtp3web.tin.it (8.6.060.43) id 583FEE8C0325220B for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 11:09:16 +0200 Received: from (80.182.160.35) by wmlighttin.pc.tim.it; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 11:09:16 +0200 Message-ID: <15c725d9c9b.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 11:09:16 +0200 (CEST) From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 80.182.160.35 X-Scan-Signature: 5c997f21c26a9a6cbaafd7f9aa22d8ba Subject: LF: For today the FETs survived... and are working! Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lipkowski.org id v549I7Zh021229 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11877 Good morning LF &VLF :-) I had not a big choice among available cores for the driver xfmr.. and finally I choose a BN43-202 with a lower AL but higher cross section. Now the driver xfmr is wound 10T primary and 22T+22T of sec (it had to be 20T but the cutted wire allowed a couple of turns more ;-) ) Now have provided much confortable test points for the gates too. So I wired everything and replaced the original 150µH coil with 4x2200pF in the output tank and have again available(but not yet connected) the 25T for the guard circuit. the gates now are switched with a square wave (a bit smoothed in the rising side) swinging from + 20 to -10 V with respect to ground. The tx is running since about half an hour at 50Vdc and only the dummy load is warming a bit. With 7T/19T xfmr on the output it is puring 35Wout with 45W input Unfortunately I cannot rise the supply continously from 50V to the final 180V.. so will let it to be used to eat 50V and later give 180V Cross your fingers! Marco IK1HSS ----Messaggio originale---- Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it Data: 3-giu-2017 20.34 A: Ogg: R: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... mmmmmmm Thanks Markus, Alan, Andy: I found something that unfortunately needs to unbild some parts before to change and hopefully fix... After check of the dummyload, directionalcoupler, attenuator and selective voltmeter, was time to check signals to the gates. After fight to engage the probes to the gate, first of all checked with no supply waveforms and wave amplitudes and previously reported it was ok. Then power on! 10Vdc ok 20Vdc ok 30 Vdc ok from 30 to 40 Vdc waveforms were changing: on one gate the square started to be smoothed on a corner, on the other gate the top of the square from flat was changing into a saddle and at 50Vdc the saddle transformed into 3 peaks! I tilted the PA and was looking around.. the chip was a bit warm and touching around nothing changed. Ouch!!!! I touched the xfmr and it was very hot!!! down with supply and let it getting cold. Then again 10Vdc for 5 minutes all OK 20Vdc for 5 minutes all OK 30Vdc for 5 minutes all OK 35Vdc and after a while the binocular core was warming up and the waveforms to the gates deteriorating.. some more volts and it was again very hot. So now I have to find another core, wind the new transformer and connect to the gates (this will be the annoying phase..) So I guess that Markus was not wrong in some ways, changing the supply makes some change on the FETs and the core of the driver xfmr saturates.. More news later on this channel Marco ----Messaggio originale---- Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com Data: 3-giu-2017 17.21 A: Ogg: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... There is a famous quote by Sherlock Holmes that goes "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." You have shown by your substitutions that the drop-off in power cannot be the ferrite core or the the capacitors. So they now become "the impossible". What remains, however improbable, are the FETs, and something else. The FETs are well within their ratings and at low power are giving the expected output, so it is more than likely they are behaving properly so look for other improbables first There is something else that could become an "improbable". What are you using to measure the power output? And is it your ONLY means of measuring the RF level. Could this be failing at the higher RF? I have seen a diode detector do something similar as the reverse voltage across the diode reaches breakdown. Some small Schottky diodes can do this at surprisingly low voltages, so if you haven't checked their specification before use... If you use a power meter, is it designed for use this low in frequency? If not, the LF could be heating something. Check and see if the DC changes with the power fall-off. If DC power stays the same and indicated RF falls, that points very definitely to the sensor / detector. IF DC falls with the RF, it suggests FETS or something early on. If not FETS and not the RF measurement - there is even less left to look at - so consider other "improbables". There won't be many left by now. Could there be some kind of feedback into the driver - unlikely but you're eliminating the impossibles one-by-one Andy G4JNT On 3 June 2017 at 15:44, marcocadeddu@tin.it wrote: > Hi Stefan, > > and thank you :-) so you have too something to mumble while sending > VLF SMS ;-) > There is nothing really new.. I started from an avalable > chassis with on board a PS giving 180Vdc (1200W) and assembled the > Andy's half bridge 700W switching PA and before give it the full power > I'm checking with lower DC supply. Attached you see the schematic with > some change at the moment.. > The output xfmr has 7T/19T, the coil of the guard circuit is not > connected (now is in serie with L2) and the resonating caps now are > 5x1000pF in parallel. > The aim is finally with 180Vdc of supply have an output of 0,5÷1kW > but.... as you probably red in the previous messages, from 10 to 30Vdc > the PA runs, at low power of course (up to 15W), and complies the > calculations; with supply between 30 and 50 Vdc the output go down to a > couple of W. > I made several trials it the last days, changing the core of the xfmr, > the turn ratio, the kind of capacitators but nothing changes (or at > least the change are within a fraction of dB). > > that's the sad history Stefan... > All thoughts and suggestions are welcome! (including go to fish ;-)) ) > Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: selberdenken@posteo.de > Data: 3-giu-2017 16.19 > A: > Ogg: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Hi Marco, > > If you like, i can help you. Just need a schematic to see what you > want > to do. Targer power, voltage, etc... > > 73, Stefan > > Am 03.06.2017 16:02, schrieb marcocadeddu@tin.it: > > Hi Alan, Andy, Chris, > > > > I replaced the caps in the output LC with WIMA FKP1, the 2 caps wich > > replaces the missing half of the bridge are still Cornell Dubillier > > 940C serie (rated at 9A @100kHz), so now all the caps are pulse rated > > but... > > I regret to admit it, nothing changed :-(( > > Power out increases from 10 to 30Vdc and at 40Vdc after a first pulse > > the power slowly decreases till a couple of watts.. > > > > Just to check another thing: being the coil of the guard circuit > > disconnected, I jointed the 2 coils together (they are wound on the > > same support) increasing so the inductance of the L (25T more). Of > > course I had to retune and now I need C in the range of 5000pF but > this > > narrowed the 3dB bandwidth of the LC from abt 15kHz to abt 8kHz so is > > the Q increased! > > > > ... I should visit Decathlon and look for a fishing rod! > > > > your sincerely depressed IK1HSS > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > > Data: 2-giu-2017 15.58 > > A: > > Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > Hi Marco, I may well be wrong I was experimenting with 150W at 35V I > > measured 12 to 15A through the capacitors (from memory) .......the > > confirmation is that the change is permanent. I dont remember seeing > > any > > heating effects. Single ended Class E may be considerably different > to > > H-bridge. The currents a lower power will be less, about 1.5A or so > > (??) I > > am not sure it that would produce damage, but you would certainly see > > it as > > the power increased. > > > > Good Luck with it > > Alan > > G3NYK > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 2:00 PM > > Subject: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > > > Hi Alan, > > > > and thanks for joining :-) > > it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of "high > > currents".. > > The PA is an half bridge like > > Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these problem > > trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W).. > > Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested just in > case > > my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. > > 73 Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > > Data: 2-giu-2017 14.36 > > A: > > Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > Hi Marco I dont know where you are putting the caps but I am assuming > > they > > are passing a high RF corrent. I found that the old style (valve) > high > > voltage caps in my Class E test rig changed capacitance permanently > > during > > and after a run (capacitance reduced). I assumed that the current was > > fusing > > the foil connection to the lead-out wires. When using "pulse rated" > > capacitors as used in SMPSUs I had no further capacitance change > > problems. > > The ones I have are RIFA PHE 428 2000v from RS Components. I think > > Farnell > > do a WIMA equivalent. > > > > Best Wishes > > Alan > > G3NYK > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:06 PM > > Subject: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > > > now my thoughts are even more confused.... > > Hi Andy, me again.... > > after a long night of meditation, I remembered I had a bounch of old > > style mica capacitators 1000pF 1000V.. > > I put > > 9 of them in parallel to get the closer value to the 8800pF I had > > before. > > Of course the resonance moved a bit and now is on 134.5 kHz with 3dB > > bandwidth of 9 kHz (Q=15 I know is a bit to high..) so carried out > some > > tests on 134 kHz (of course on the dummyload) all without guard > circuit > > 1st test xfmr 7T/19T (Ae197mm² R50 mat T38): 2Wout @10Vdc; 6,5 > > Wout@20Vdc; 13,7Wout@30Vdc stable.. @40Vdc after a quick peak the > power > > slowly goes down till below 1W! > > 2nd test I had still on hands the previous xfmr 5T/12T (Ae197mm² same > > core as 1st test) so was worth to make a trial... same trend :-( for > > Vdc> 30V after a first peak... it goes down. > > I had another core available with different material (N30, Ae 154mm² > > R58) so I prepared a new xfmr with this core 7T/14T: > > 1,4Wout@10Vdc; 4,6Wout@20Vdc; 9,2Wout@30Vdc .... at 40Vdc a short > burst > > with almost 15Wout and then down down down... :-(((((( > > > > I noticed a difference in comparison to your project: you connected > the > > + and - rails to ground via 10nF and here I used 100nF caps could it > > explain this behaviour? > > > > 73 Marco > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.20 > > A: > > Ogg: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > that was also my thought.. but they run at room temperature: the > > resonance is obtained with 4 polyesther 2200 pF 2000 Vdc caps. the > > classic boxes 25x15x5mm > > > > Marco > > > > ---- > > Messaggio originale---- > > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.03 > > A: > > Ogg: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like > > capacitors > > heating up and changing its value. I can't think of any other > > component > > that will change with dissipation / heating. What type of capacitor > > are > > you using in the tank? > > > > Andy > > > > > > On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > wrote: > > > > > >> anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing > >> flowers? > >> > >> Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that > >> some effects in this area are present. > >> > >> I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected > >> simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. > >> The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output > >> > > is > > > >> stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output > >> starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at > 40 > >> and 50V. > >> The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts > from > >> 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. > >> > >> I need a long weekend of meditation... > >> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >> > >> > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > >> Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > >> Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 > >> A: > >> Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >> > >> Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D > >> > >> yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward > >> > > the > > > >> PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) > >> > >> the PS should > >> provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for > >> > > 20A > > > >> @ 25°C (13A @ 100°C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try ;-) > >> > >> I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level > >> where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm²Ae: if I > >> am > >> not totally wrong B should be< 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the > >> > > primary > > > >> Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel > is > >> running in its cage ;-) > >> > >> Thanks again for assistence > >> > >> Marco IK1HSS > >> > >> > >> > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >> Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 > >> A: > >> Cc: > >> Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >> > >> 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance > of > >> 6.8 > >> ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't > >> think > >> you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more > >> realistic. > >> > >> As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very > >> wrong. > >> I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core > >> > > Ae, > > > >> but > >> lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. > >> > >> V = 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax > >> > > of > > > >> 0.1 > >> that suggests 85V RMS. > >> Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . > >> Before > >> a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload = 13 ohms > >> > >> Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be > >> customised > >> to > >> you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper > >> settings > >> foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. > >> Only > >> when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard > circuit. > >> > >> When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) > >> unit > >> before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Hi Andy... me again... > >>> > >>> I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick > >>> dinner and connected all, but... > >>> > >>> now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my > >>> readings/calculations: > >>> (see attached picture) > >>> again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc > >>> > > after > > > >>> an initial burst it start to fall down.. > >>> I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 > >>> > >> kHz > >> > >>> with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the > >>> "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... > >>> > >>> mumble mumble > >>> > >>> I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at > >>> 180V! > >>> > >>> Marco, IK1HSS > >>> > >>> > >>> ----Messaggio originale---- > >>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >>> Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 > >>> A: > >>> Cc: > >>> Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >>> > >>> I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there > >>> > > the > > > >>> values are different from your statement in the email. It shows > >>> primary 5 > >>> turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 > >>> > > ohms > > > >>> which > >>> is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to > >>> > > the > > > >>> ideal > >>> Rl > >>> > >>> The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high > >>> > > a > > > >> Q > >> > >>> is > >>> used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the > >>> > >> region > >> > >>> of > >>> 6. > >>> > >>> Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 > >>> Watts > >>> from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will > >>> > > end > > > >>> up > >>> with high voltage and critical tuning > >>> > >>> Andy G4JNT > >>> > >>> On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Yes. > >>>> As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that > >>>> > > the > > > >>> peak > >>> > >>>> of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER > >>>> > > than > > > >>> the peak > >>> > >>>> by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more > >>>> > >> power > >> > >>> (1.6 > >>> > >>>> times) than it was supposed to. > >>>> > >>>> So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine > >>>> component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of > >>>> > > the > > > >>>> resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to > >>>> > >> RMS- > >> > >>> sine > >>> > >>>> ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a > >>>> > >>> further > >>> > >>>> factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. > >>>> > >>>> Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux > >>>> > >> in > >> a > >> > >>>> magnetic code, V = 4.44.F.N.A.B > >>>> The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes > >>>> > > about > > > >>> from > >>> > >>>> the same sort of sine to square transform. > >>>> > >>>> Andy > >>>> > >>>> On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>> > > it> > > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the > >>>>> > > same > > > >>> of > >>> > >>>>> Vrms before FETs make their work! > >>>>> > >>>>> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! > >>>>> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with > >>>>> > > the > > > >>>>> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) > >>>>> > >>>>> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to > >>>>> > > burnout > > > >>> the > >>> > >>>>> antenna hi > >>>>> > >>>>> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy > >>>>> > >>>>> 73 Marco, IK1HSS > >>>>> ----Messaggio originale---- > >>>>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >>>>> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 > >>>>> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", > >>>>> > >>>>> Cc: > >>>>> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>> > >>>>> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output > >>>>> transformer > >>>>> doesn't look right. > >>>>> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary > >>>>> > > of > > > >>> 12 > >>> > >>>>> turns...*" > >>>>> > >>>>> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. > >>>>> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 = 229V pk-pk > >>>>> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] = 81V RMS > >>>>> > >>>>> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms > >>>>> > >> (fund) > >> = > >> > >>>>> 0.45VDC > >>>>> > >>>>> For 500 Watts out, Rload = 81 ^ 2 / 500 = 13 ohms > >>>>> > >>>>> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) = > >>>>> > >> 1.9: > >> > >>>>> 1 so > >>>>> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 > >>>>> > >>> turns > >>> > >>>>> on > >>>>> the primary > >>>>> > >>>>> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary > >>>>> > > exactly > > > >>> as > >>> > >>>>> the > >>>>> square of the voltage. > >>>>> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: > >>>>> > >>>>> 12V DC = 12V pk-pk = 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi = 5.4V RMS > >>>>> > >>> (fundamental) > >>> > >>>>> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 = 2.2 Watts > >>>>> > >>>>> check using ratio of voltages, squared : > >>>>> > >>>>> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W = 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. > >>>>> QED > >>>>> > >>>>> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 = > >>>>> > >> 78 > >> > >>>>> ohms > >>>>> > >>>>> At 40V DC == 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 = 4.1 watts > >>>>> > >> which > >> > >>> is > >>> > >>>>> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, > >>>>> > > but > > > >>> the > >>> > >>>>> low > >>>>> power is in the area of what you measured.. > >>>>> > >>>>> Andy G4JNT > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>>> > > it> > > > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Chris, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I > >>>>>> > >> had > >> > >>> no > >>> > >>>>>> success.. > >>>>>> As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the > >>>>>> attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... > >>>>>> Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and > >>>>>> suggestion are welcome! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 73, Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original message----- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it > >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 > >>>>>> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi LF, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > >>>>>> > >> of > >> > >>>>>> Andy.. > >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > >>>>>> > >> the > >> > >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you > >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is > >>>>>> > > believed > > > >> to > >> > >>> be > >>> > >>>>>> clean. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" > >>>>>> To: > >>>>>> Cc: > >>>>>> Bcc: > >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) > >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>>> Hi LF, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > >>>>>> > >> of > >> > >>>>>> Andy.. > >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > >>>>>> > >> the > >> > >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you > >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is > >>>>>> > > believed > > > >> to > >> > >>> be > >>> > >>>>>> clean. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jun 4 11:27:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v549RK8r021275 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 11:27:21 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHRhj-0004Xw-Fz for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 10:20:11 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHRhg-0004Xk-ME for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 10:20:08 +0100 Received: from omr-m007e.mx.aol.com ([204.29.186.9]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHRhd-0007Uc-Fz for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 10:20:07 +0100 Received: from mtaomg-mce02.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mce02.mx.aol.com [172.29.27.208]) by omr-m007e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id C6D103800099 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 05:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-acb10h.mail.aol.com (core-acb10.mail.aol.com [172.27.24.10]) by mtaomg-mce02.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 7F28738000081 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 05:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 188.192.95.60 by webprd-m29.mail.aol.com (10.74.55.10) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sun, 04 Jun 2017 05:20:01 -0400 Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 05:20:01 -0400 From: Markus Vester To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-Id: <15c7267724d-538c-2ca32@webprd-m29.mail.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <15c725d9c9b.marcocadeddu@tin.it> References: <15c725d9c9b.marcocadeddu@tin.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: JAS STD X-Originating-IP: [188.192.95.60] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20150623; t=1496568002; bh=sWAEyOR5ya2sQMRnaeTdKO7UEGntrQrQW34LehJqsPE=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=1PHD6hqKE983KZ06da/H6VYU43c4VLJQ0eq75fDCtzt809r55W5gwjpbrJE9JKxvY NLpk60nck0vdCEGJAXX6BHIU8oDjWeqbS6IL823+XLPuiWkRbJCb9Zwxsk7HGsVTUz ticwO7FcVxfiGAn3kX+rWh1nCYipRukgbLcp+oaY= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d1bd05933d0c1793c X-Scan-Signature: bf9cd6b3d49c805062abf73a1027fea8 Subject: Re: LF: For today the FETs survived... and are working! Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_225191_1827475118.1496568001100" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11878 ------=_Part_225191_1827475118.1496568001100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > The gates now are switched with a square wave (a bit smoothed in the risi= ng side) swinging from + 20 to -10 V with respect to ground. Why are these so unsymmetrical? With 50% duty cycle and DC-free output from= the transformer, the two polarities should have the same amplitude. > Unfortunately I cannot rise the supply continously from 50V to the final = 180V.. so will let it to be used to eat 50V and later give 180V Oh man, that's going to be a tense moment! Take care, and be sure to protec= t yourself against bits flying around! Best 73, Markus -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: marcocadeddu An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: So, 4. Jun 2017 11:11 Betreff: LF: For today the FETs survived... and are working! Good morning LF &VLF :-) I had not a big choice among available cores for the driver xfmr.. and=20 finally I choose a BN43-202 with a lower AL but higher cross section.=20 Now the driver xfmr is wound 10T primary and 22T+22T of sec (it had to=20 be 20T but the cutted wire allowed a couple of turns more ;-) ) Now have provided much confortable test points for the gates too. So I wired everything and replaced the original 150=C2=B5H coil with=20 4x2200pF in the output tank and have again available(but not yet=20 connected) the 25T for the guard circuit. the gates now are switched with a square wave (a bit smoothed in the=20 rising side) swinging from + 20 to -10 V with respect to ground. The tx is running since about half an hour at 50Vdc and only the dummy=20 load is warming a bit. With 7T/19T xfmr on the output it is puring 35Wout with 45W input Unfortunately I cannot rise the supply continously from 50V to the=20 final 180V.. so will let it to be used to eat 50V and later give 180V Cross your fingers! Marco IK1HSS ... ------=_Part_225191_1827475118.1496568001100 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> The gates now are switched with a square wave (a bi= t smoothed in the rising side) swinging from + 20 to -10 V with respect to = ground.

Why are these so unsymmetrical? With 50% duty cycle and DC-f= ree output from the transformer, the two polarities should have the same am= plitude.


> Unfortunately I cannot rise the supply continously= from 50V to the final 180V.. so will let it to be used to eat 50V and late= r give 180V

Oh man, that's going to be a tense moment! Take care, an= d be sure to protect yourself against bits flying around!

Best = 73,
Markus

-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: marco= cadeddu <marcocadeddu@tin.it>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@= blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: So, 4. Jun 2017 11:11
Betreff: LF: For= today the FETs survived... and are working!

Good morning LF &= amp;VLF :-)

I had not a big choice among available cores for the dri= ver xfmr.. and
finally I choose a BN43-202 with a lower AL but higher c= ross section.
Now the driver xfmr is wound 10T primary and 22T+22T of s= ec (it had to
be 20T but the cutted wire allowed a couple of turns more= ;-) )
Now have provided much confortable test points for the gates too.=
So I wired everything and replaced the original 150=C2=B5H coil with 4x2200pF in the output tank and have again available(but not yet
conn= ected) the 25T for the guard circuit.

the gates now are switched wit= h a square wave (a bit smoothed in the
rising side) swinging from + 20 = to -10 V with respect to ground.

The tx is running since about half = an hour at 50Vdc and only the dummy
load is warming a bit.
With 7T/1= 9T xfmr on the output it is puring 35Wout with 45W input

Unfortunate= ly I cannot rise the supply continously from 50V to the
final 180V.. so= will let it to be used to eat 50V and later give 180V

Cross your fi= ngers!

Marco IK1HSS

...







------=_Part_225191_1827475118.1496568001100-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jun 4 13:15:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS, T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v54BFXdL021487 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 13:15:34 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHTQI-0004yZ-Nd for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 12:10:18 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHTQI-0004yQ-CX for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 12:10:18 +0100 Received: from mail-wm0-x241.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c09::241]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHTQE-0007nW-V2 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 12:10:17 +0100 Received: by mail-wm0-x241.google.com with SMTP id g15so25544109wmc.2 for ; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 04:10:14 -0700 (PDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:date:message-id:to:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=J/XXuwiSe1QZ4aMqKqG8ANyJs2cSCfTpo7+4UebFnE4=; b=WtoooE0KgwEx8t6Kbwlv4S+MLiEi0AUODQdeZBZOndnz0JEqophoQtz+wgE+pHesB7 4GKQE0b3oiy2c6ncQQBc02XGDvoixf8K7gCdeBmpgrLDZb7+6YjUc3BKRFj1Lz2orWtc w0WBoTgHoC3hulA797gUS8SHD3/qTw05ZV4hOUwkpO8pL/zgwMQ9OVMjPbh0b25yuh6b tPEHpBydHB/73/R1tWu1lVkX9YvaPA+yN11l0vbiaA6z9O5yiHyUZOdWCocXI2utm5Pv k96W4qQUTEex7bc9jKj9ceRGUbex0ybcLXerJdPqcADkhsfyUYJD2PjWjOlwwJHpRSs8 3LAQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:date:message-id:to:subject:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=J/XXuwiSe1QZ4aMqKqG8ANyJs2cSCfTpo7+4UebFnE4=; b=UJgTgq5WUk5jkXpdOeIuz1FIhZ1+YQwQgh86KqFyu/rJEtKeGUiwRA6e6Mmnsho2qQ 6TjhsUy+7ngDz5aLKEHh9MMnFpVV9IbGY0J3+j+3p/GnXLNFLgf835Q58IQPg9xLM4Wr xhOEVEBT4rdCzecQG47yffmszhHESnvrMAA+HK3GnqTeaphDB5VGf6kP8T0j959dz2UW oHioYpuof3kJuUZkjmZiPLXBAtVU3MECZX4gw6d9fX3u0qCJarInIauqLkWHFxVdygr/ pmkk0X1POu1O+4L/cPM9hu19I25KAYs/NKg8tA34XCZFMkFwprzi1DBBF6JHzAyF0XEW ZDGw== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcBuK6qs5iS1SZIOtojlFFoNPijm7zRhnmdNBy93UYvC/VXEwuHP Dg/6IUYvSaB2tr0O X-Received: by 10.28.40.198 with SMTP id o189mr4574387wmo.102.1496574613427; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 04:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OfficeWin7.lan (82-70-254-222.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk. [82.70.254.222]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v191sm3982763wme.3.2017.06.04.04.10.12 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 04 Jun 2017 04:10:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Wilson X-Google-Original-From: Chris Wilson Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 12:10:11 +0100 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1142673460.20170604121011@gmail.com> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: <15c725d9c9b.marcocadeddu@tin.it> References: <15c725d9c9b.marcocadeddu@tin.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scan-Signature: 4c0633a540d76adc241b9d3cede72a57 Subject: Re: LF: For today the FETs survived... and are working! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lipkowski.org id v54BFXdL021487 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11879 Hello LF'ers, 04 June 2017 Marco, do you have the means of posting screen shots of the gare and drain wave forms? I am always keen to see just what people consider good and bad ones and a capture speaks a thousand words. Glad you seem to be progressing with this now! Crossed fingers for you! :) This is a capture of my latest amp on 52V @ about 18 Amps Gate is lower trace, drain upper. http://www.gatesgarth.com/capture.jpg Best regards, Chris 2E0ILY mailto:chris@gatesgarth.com > Good morning LF &VLF :-) > I had not a big choice among available cores for the driver xfmr.. and > finally I choose a BN43-202 with a lower AL but higher cross section. > Now the driver xfmr is wound 10T primary and 22T+22T of sec (it had to > be 20T but the cutted wire allowed a couple of turns more ;-) ) > Now have provided much confortable test points for the gates too. > So I wired everything and replaced the original 150µH coil with > 4x2200pF in the output tank and have again available(but not yet > connected) the 25T for the guard circuit. > the gates now are switched with a square wave (a bit smoothed in the > rising side) swinging from + 20 to -10 V with respect to ground. > The tx is running since about half an hour at 50Vdc and only the dummy > load is warming a bit. > With 7T/19T xfmr on the output it is puring 35Wout with 45W input > Unfortunately I cannot rise the supply continously from 50V to the > final 180V.. so will let it to be used to eat 50V and later give 180V > Cross your fingers! > Marco IK1HSS -- Best regards, Chris mailto:dead_fets@gmail.com From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jun 4 14:26:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v54CPiaD021642 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 14:25:46 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHUX7-0005If-RV for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 13:21:25 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHUX0-0005IW-Pn for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 13:21:18 +0100 Received: from smtp1web.tin.it ([212.216.176.195]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHUWw-0007zK-Kr for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 13:21:17 +0100 Received: from feu19 (10.192.64.29) by smtp1web.tin.it (8.6.060.43) id 58893FFA02931F6F for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 14:21:12 +0200 Received: from (80.182.160.35) by wmlighttin.pc.tim.it; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 14:21:12 +0200 Message-ID: <15c730d565a.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 14:21:12 +0200 (CEST) From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 80.182.160.35 X-Scan-Signature: ed3f06912dae81e7848362d6be074e50 Subject: LF: test Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lipkowski.org id v54CPiaD021642 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11880 ----Messaggio originale---- Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it Data: 3-giu-2017 20.34 A: Ogg: R: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... mmmmmmm Thanks Markus, Alan, Andy: I found something that unfortunately needs to unbild some parts before to change and hopefully fix... After check of the dummyload, directionalcoupler, attenuator and selective voltmeter, was time to check signals to the gates. After fight to engage the probes to the gate, first of all checked with no supply waveforms and wave amplitudes and previously reported it was ok. Then power on! 10Vdc ok 20Vdc ok 30 Vdc ok from 30 to 40 Vdc waveforms were changing: on one gate the square started to be smoothed on a corner, on the other gate the top of the square from flat was changing into a saddle and at 50Vdc the saddle transformed into 3 peaks! I tilted the PA and was looking around.. the chip was a bit warm and touching around nothing changed. Ouch!!!! I touched the xfmr and it was very hot!!! down with supply and let it getting cold. Then again 10Vdc for 5 minutes all OK 20Vdc for 5 minutes all OK 30Vdc for 5 minutes all OK 35Vdc and after a while the binocular core was warming up and the waveforms to the gates deteriorating.. some more volts and it was again very hot. So now I have to find another core, wind the new transformer and connect to the gates (this will be the annoying phase..) So I guess that Markus was not wrong in some ways, changing the supply makes some change on the FETs and the core of the driver xfmr saturates.. More news later on this channel Marco ----Messaggio originale---- Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com Data: 3-giu-2017 17.21 A: Ogg: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... There is a famous quote by Sherlock Holmes that goes "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." You have shown by your substitutions that the drop-off in power cannot be the ferrite core or the the capacitors. So they now become "the impossible". What remains, however improbable, are the FETs, and something else. The FETs are well within their ratings and at low power are giving the expected output, so it is more than likely they are behaving properly so look for other improbables first There is something else that could become an "improbable". What are you using to measure the power output? And is it your ONLY means of measuring the RF level. Could this be failing at the higher RF? I have seen a diode detector do something similar as the reverse voltage across the diode reaches breakdown. Some small Schottky diodes can do this at surprisingly low voltages, so if you haven't checked their specification before use... If you use a power meter, is it designed for use this low in frequency? If not, the LF could be heating something. Check and see if the DC changes with the power fall-off. If DC power stays the same and indicated RF falls, that points very definitely to the sensor / detector. IF DC falls with the RF, it suggests FETS or something early on. If not FETS and not the RF measurement - there is even less left to look at - so consider other "improbables". There won't be many left by now. Could there be some kind of feedback into the driver - unlikely but you're eliminating the impossibles one-by-one Andy G4JNT On 3 June 2017 at 15:44, marcocadeddu@tin.it wrote: > Hi Stefan, > > and thank you :-) so you have too something to mumble while sending > VLF SMS ;-) > There is nothing really new.. I started from an avalable > chassis with on board a PS giving 180Vdc (1200W) and assembled the > Andy's half bridge 700W switching PA and before give it the full power > I'm checking with lower DC supply. Attached you see the schematic with > some change at the moment.. > The output xfmr has 7T/19T, the coil of the guard circuit is not > connected (now is in serie with L2) and the resonating caps now are > 5x1000pF in parallel. > The aim is finally with 180Vdc of supply have an output of 0,5÷1kW > but.... as you probably red in the previous messages, from 10 to 30Vdc > the PA runs, at low power of course (up to 15W), and complies the > calculations; with supply between 30 and 50 Vdc the output go down to a > couple of W. > I made several trials it the last days, changing the core of the xfmr, > the turn ratio, the kind of capacitators but nothing changes (or at > least the change are within a fraction of dB). > > that's the sad history Stefan... > All thoughts and suggestions are welcome! (including go to fish ;-)) ) > Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: selberdenken@posteo.de > Data: 3-giu-2017 16.19 > A: > Ogg: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Hi Marco, > > If you like, i can help you. Just need a schematic to see what you > want > to do. Targer power, voltage, etc... > > 73, Stefan > > Am 03.06.2017 16:02, schrieb marcocadeddu@tin.it: > > Hi Alan, Andy, Chris, > > > > I replaced the caps in the output LC with WIMA FKP1, the 2 caps wich > > replaces the missing half of the bridge are still Cornell Dubillier > > 940C serie (rated at 9A @100kHz), so now all the caps are pulse rated > > but... > > I regret to admit it, nothing changed :-(( > > Power out increases from 10 to 30Vdc and at 40Vdc after a first pulse > > the power slowly decreases till a couple of watts.. > > > > Just to check another thing: being the coil of the guard circuit > > disconnected, I jointed the 2 coils together (they are wound on the > > same support) increasing so the inductance of the L (25T more). Of > > course I had to retune and now I need C in the range of 5000pF but > this > > narrowed the 3dB bandwidth of the LC from abt 15kHz to abt 8kHz so is > > the Q increased! > > > > ... I should visit Decathlon and look for a fishing rod! > > > > your sincerely depressed IK1HSS > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > > Data: 2-giu-2017 15.58 > > A: > > Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > Hi Marco, I may well be wrong I was experimenting with 150W at 35V I > > measured 12 to 15A through the capacitors (from memory) .......the > > confirmation is that the change is permanent. I dont remember seeing > > any > > heating effects. Single ended Class E may be considerably different > to > > H-bridge. The currents a lower power will be less, about 1.5A or so > > (??) I > > am not sure it that would produce damage, but you would certainly see > > it as > > the power increased. > > > > Good Luck with it > > Alan > > G3NYK > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 2:00 PM > > Subject: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > > > Hi Alan, > > > > and thanks for joining :-) > > it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of "high > > currents".. > > The PA is an half bridge like > > Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these problem > > trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W).. > > Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested just in > case > > my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. > > 73 Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > > Data: 2-giu-2017 14.36 > > A: > > Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > Hi Marco I dont know where you are putting the caps but I am assuming > > they > > are passing a high RF corrent. I found that the old style (valve) > high > > voltage caps in my Class E test rig changed capacitance permanently > > during > > and after a run (capacitance reduced). I assumed that the current was > > fusing > > the foil connection to the lead-out wires. When using "pulse rated" > > capacitors as used in SMPSUs I had no further capacitance change > > problems. > > The ones I have are RIFA PHE 428 2000v from RS Components. I think > > Farnell > > do a WIMA equivalent. > > > > Best Wishes > > Alan > > G3NYK > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:06 PM > > Subject: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > > > now my thoughts are even more confused.... > > Hi Andy, me again.... > > after a long night of meditation, I remembered I had a bounch of old > > style mica capacitators 1000pF 1000V.. > > I put > > 9 of them in parallel to get the closer value to the 8800pF I had > > before. > > Of course the resonance moved a bit and now is on 134.5 kHz with 3dB > > bandwidth of 9 kHz (Q=15 I know is a bit to high..) so carried out > some > > tests on 134 kHz (of course on the dummyload) all without guard > circuit > > 1st test xfmr 7T/19T (Ae197mm² R50 mat T38): 2Wout @10Vdc; 6,5 > > Wout@20Vdc; 13,7Wout@30Vdc stable.. @40Vdc after a quick peak the > power > > slowly goes down till below 1W! > > 2nd test I had still on hands the previous xfmr 5T/12T (Ae197mm² same > > core as 1st test) so was worth to make a trial... same trend :-( for > > Vdc> 30V after a first peak... it goes down. > > I had another core available with different material (N30, Ae 154mm² > > R58) so I prepared a new xfmr with this core 7T/14T: > > 1,4Wout@10Vdc; 4,6Wout@20Vdc; 9,2Wout@30Vdc .... at 40Vdc a short > burst > > with almost 15Wout and then down down down... :-(((((( > > > > I noticed a difference in comparison to your project: you connected > the > > + and - rails to ground via 10nF and here I used 100nF caps could it > > explain this behaviour? > > > > 73 Marco > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.20 > > A: > > Ogg: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > that was also my thought.. but they run at room temperature: the > > resonance is obtained with 4 polyesther 2200 pF 2000 Vdc caps. the > > classic boxes 25x15x5mm > > > > Marco > > > > ---- > > Messaggio originale---- > > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.03 > > A: > > Ogg: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like > > capacitors > > heating up and changing its value. I can't think of any other > > component > > that will change with dissipation / heating. What type of capacitor > > are > > you using in the tank? > > > > Andy > > > > > > On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > wrote: > > > > > >> anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing > >> flowers? > >> > >> Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that > >> some effects in this area are present. > >> > >> I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected > >> simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. > >> The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output > >> > > is > > > >> stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output > >> starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at > 40 > >> and 50V. > >> The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts > from > >> 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. > >> > >> I need a long weekend of meditation... > >> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >> > >> > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > >> Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > >> Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 > >> A: > >> Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >> > >> Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D > >> > >> yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward > >> > > the > > > >> PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) > >> > >> the PS should > >> provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for > >> > > 20A > > > >> @ 25°C (13A @ 100°C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try ;-) > >> > >> I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level > >> where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm²Ae: if I > >> am > >> not totally wrong B should be< 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the > >> > > primary > > > >> Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel > is > >> running in its cage ;-) > >> > >> Thanks again for assistence > >> > >> Marco IK1HSS > >> > >> > >> > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >> Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 > >> A: > >> Cc: > >> Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >> > >> 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance > of > >> 6.8 > >> ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't > >> think > >> you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more > >> realistic. > >> > >> As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very > >> wrong. > >> I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core > >> > > Ae, > > > >> but > >> lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. > >> > >> V = 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax > >> > > of > > > >> 0.1 > >> that suggests 85V RMS. > >> Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . > >> Before > >> a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload = 13 ohms > >> > >> Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be > >> customised > >> to > >> you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper > >> settings > >> foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. > >> Only > >> when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard > circuit. > >> > >> When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) > >> unit > >> before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Hi Andy... me again... > >>> > >>> I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick > >>> dinner and connected all, but... > >>> > >>> now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my > >>> readings/calculations: > >>> (see attached picture) > >>> again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc > >>> > > after > > > >>> an initial burst it start to fall down.. > >>> I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 > >>> > >> kHz > >> > >>> with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the > >>> "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... > >>> > >>> mumble mumble > >>> > >>> I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at > >>> 180V! > >>> > >>> Marco, IK1HSS > >>> > >>> > >>> ----Messaggio originale---- > >>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >>> Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 > >>> A: > >>> Cc: > >>> Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >>> > >>> I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there > >>> > > the > > > >>> values are different from your statement in the email. It shows > >>> primary 5 > >>> turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 > >>> > > ohms > > > >>> which > >>> is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to > >>> > > the > > > >>> ideal > >>> Rl > >>> > >>> The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high > >>> > > a > > > >> Q > >> > >>> is > >>> used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the > >>> > >> region > >> > >>> of > >>> 6. > >>> > >>> Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 > >>> Watts > >>> from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will > >>> > > end > > > >>> up > >>> with high voltage and critical tuning > >>> > >>> Andy G4JNT > >>> > >>> On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Yes. > >>>> As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that > >>>> > > the > > > >>> peak > >>> > >>>> of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER > >>>> > > than > > > >>> the peak > >>> > >>>> by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more > >>>> > >> power > >> > >>> (1.6 > >>> > >>>> times) than it was supposed to. > >>>> > >>>> So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine > >>>> component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of > >>>> > > the > > > >>>> resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to > >>>> > >> RMS- > >> > >>> sine > >>> > >>>> ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a > >>>> > >>> further > >>> > >>>> factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. > >>>> > >>>> Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux > >>>> > >> in > >> a > >> > >>>> magnetic code, V = 4.44.F.N.A.B > >>>> The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes > >>>> > > about > > > >>> from > >>> > >>>> the same sort of sine to square transform. > >>>> > >>>> Andy > >>>> > >>>> On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>> > > it> > > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the > >>>>> > > same > > > >>> of > >>> > >>>>> Vrms before FETs make their work! > >>>>> > >>>>> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! > >>>>> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with > >>>>> > > the > > > >>>>> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) > >>>>> > >>>>> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to > >>>>> > > burnout > > > >>> the > >>> > >>>>> antenna hi > >>>>> > >>>>> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy > >>>>> > >>>>> 73 Marco, IK1HSS > >>>>> ----Messaggio originale---- > >>>>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >>>>> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 > >>>>> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", > >>>>> > >>>>> Cc: > >>>>> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>> > >>>>> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output > >>>>> transformer > >>>>> doesn't look right. > >>>>> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary > >>>>> > > of > > > >>> 12 > >>> > >>>>> turns...*" > >>>>> > >>>>> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. > >>>>> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 = 229V pk-pk > >>>>> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] = 81V RMS > >>>>> > >>>>> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms > >>>>> > >> (fund) > >> = > >> > >>>>> 0.45VDC > >>>>> > >>>>> For 500 Watts out, Rload = 81 ^ 2 / 500 = 13 ohms > >>>>> > >>>>> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) = > >>>>> > >> 1.9: > >> > >>>>> 1 so > >>>>> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 > >>>>> > >>> turns > >>> > >>>>> on > >>>>> the primary > >>>>> > >>>>> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary > >>>>> > > exactly > > > >>> as > >>> > >>>>> the > >>>>> square of the voltage. > >>>>> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: > >>>>> > >>>>> 12V DC = 12V pk-pk = 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi = 5.4V RMS > >>>>> > >>> (fundamental) > >>> > >>>>> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 = 2.2 Watts > >>>>> > >>>>> check using ratio of voltages, squared : > >>>>> > >>>>> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W = 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. > >>>>> QED > >>>>> > >>>>> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 = > >>>>> > >> 78 > >> > >>>>> ohms > >>>>> > >>>>> At 40V DC == 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 = 4.1 watts > >>>>> > >> which > >> > >>> is > >>> > >>>>> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, > >>>>> > > but > > > >>> the > >>> > >>>>> low > >>>>> power is in the area of what you measured.. > >>>>> > >>>>> Andy G4JNT > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>>> > > it> > > > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Chris, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I > >>>>>> > >> had > >> > >>> no > >>> > >>>>>> success.. > >>>>>> As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the > >>>>>> attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... > >>>>>> Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and > >>>>>> suggestion are welcome! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 73, Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original message----- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it > >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 > >>>>>> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi LF, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > >>>>>> > >> of > >> > >>>>>> Andy.. > >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > >>>>>> > >> the > >> > >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you > >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is > >>>>>> > > believed > > > >> to > >> > >>> be > >>> > >>>>>> clean. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" > >>>>>> To: > >>>>>> Cc: > >>>>>> Bcc: > >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) > >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>>> Hi LF, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > >>>>>> > >> of > >> > >>>>>> Andy.. > >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > >>>>>> > >> the > >> > >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you > >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is > >>>>>> > > believed > > > >> to > >> > >>> be > >>> > >>>>>> clean. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jun 4 15:04:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v54D4Fuj021702 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 15:04:16 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHV8d-0005X7-0M for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 14:00:11 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHV8b-0005Wy-J9 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 14:00:09 +0100 Received: from smtp3web.tin.it ([212.216.176.237]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHV8T-00085w-Rv for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 14:00:08 +0100 Received: from feu19 (10.192.64.29) by smtp3web.tin.it (8.6.060.43) id 583FEE8C0325A48B for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 15:00:00 +0200 Received: from (80.182.160.35) by wmlighttin.pc.tim.it; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 15:00:00 +0200 Message-ID: <15c7330daa3.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 15:00:00 +0200 (CEST) From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 80.182.160.35 X-Scan-Signature: 145872ee88bb4610aca621d1411c0aab Subject: R: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lipkowski.org id v54D4Fuj021702 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11881 ...probably the previous message is missed somewhere... Nuntio vobis gaudium magnum!!! After replacing the driver xfmr with a new one wound on a BN43-202 core (not the best but the only available here with decent AL and a larger cross section) with 10T/22T/22T, the amplifier runs since a couple of hors at 50 Vdc supply. No warming of xfmrs, with 35W output also the dummy load is cold, Only thing warming is the L of the output tank, after about half an hour, the temp is close to 50°C (and the hot melt glue used is soft..) I also reconnected the L of the guard circuit: here the comparison Vd Idd Ig Pin Pout no guard circuit 50 0,87 / 45W 36W load 50R w guard 50 0,41 0,16 20,5W 13,2W load 50R w guard 50 0,31 0,26 15,5W 8,4W load 25R w guard 50 0,03 0 / / open because of the small Ig with 50 ohm load I guess that the 25T link is too much but is just my feeling being my first approach to the guard circuit... I'm looking around if I have larger diameter litz to make a new L for the tank: this one uses 1,5mm² conductor and I should have hopefully enough 2,5mm² hidden somewhere :-) Marco, IK1HSS ----Messaggio originale---- Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it Data: 3-giu-2017 20.34 A: Ogg: R: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... mmmmmmm Thanks Markus, Alan, Andy: I found something that unfortunately needs to unbild some parts before to change and hopefully fix... After check of the dummyload, directionalcoupler, attenuator and selective voltmeter, was time to check signals to the gates. After fight to engage the probes to the gate, first of all checked with no supply waveforms and wave amplitudes and previously reported it was ok. Then power on! 10Vdc ok 20Vdc ok 30 Vdc ok from 30 to 40 Vdc waveforms were changing: on one gate the square started to be smoothed on a corner, on the other gate the top of the square from flat was changing into a saddle and at 50Vdc the saddle transformed into 3 peaks! I tilted the PA and was looking around.. the chip was a bit warm and touching around nothing changed. Ouch!!!! I touched the xfmr and it was very hot!!! down with supply and let it getting cold. Then again 10Vdc for 5 minutes all OK 20Vdc for 5 minutes all OK 30Vdc for 5 minutes all OK 35Vdc and after a while the binocular core was warming up and the waveforms to the gates deteriorating.. some more volts and it was again very hot. So now I have to find another core, wind the new transformer and connect to the gates (this will be the annoying phase..) So I guess that Markus was not wrong in some ways, changing the supply makes some change on the FETs and the core of the driver xfmr saturates.. More news later on this channel Marco ----Messaggio originale---- Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com Data: 3-giu-2017 17.21 A: Ogg: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... There is a famous quote by Sherlock Holmes that goes "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." You have shown by your substitutions that the drop-off in power cannot be the ferrite core or the the capacitors. So they now become "the impossible". What remains, however improbable, are the FETs, and something else. The FETs are well within their ratings and at low power are giving the expected output, so it is more than likely they are behaving properly so look for other improbables first There is something else that could become an "improbable". What are you using to measure the power output? And is it your ONLY means of measuring the RF level. Could this be failing at the higher RF? I have seen a diode detector do something similar as the reverse voltage across the diode reaches breakdown. Some small Schottky diodes can do this at surprisingly low voltages, so if you haven't checked their specification before use... If you use a power meter, is it designed for use this low in frequency? If not, the LF could be heating something. Check and see if the DC changes with the power fall-off. If DC power stays the same and indicated RF falls, that points very definitely to the sensor / detector. IF DC falls with the RF, it suggests FETS or something early on. If not FETS and not the RF measurement - there is even less left to look at - so consider other "improbables". There won't be many left by now. Could there be some kind of feedback into the driver - unlikely but you're eliminating the impossibles one-by-one Andy G4JNT On 3 June 2017 at 15:44, marcocadeddu@tin.it wrote: > Hi Stefan, > > and thank you :-) so you have too something to mumble while sending > VLF SMS ;-) > There is nothing really new.. I started from an avalable > chassis with on board a PS giving 180Vdc (1200W) and assembled the > Andy's half bridge 700W switching PA and before give it the full power > I'm checking with lower DC supply. Attached you see the schematic with > some change at the moment.. > The output xfmr has 7T/19T, the coil of the guard circuit is not > connected (now is in serie with L2) and the resonating caps now are > 5x1000pF in parallel. > The aim is finally with 180Vdc of supply have an output of 0,5÷1kW > but.... as you probably red in the previous messages, from 10 to 30Vdc > the PA runs, at low power of course (up to 15W), and complies the > calculations; with supply between 30 and 50 Vdc the output go down to a > couple of W. > I made several trials it the last days, changing the core of the xfmr, > the turn ratio, the kind of capacitators but nothing changes (or at > least the change are within a fraction of dB). > > that's the sad history Stefan... > All thoughts and suggestions are welcome! (including go to fish ;-)) ) > Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: selberdenken@posteo.de > Data: 3-giu-2017 16.19 > A: > Ogg: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Hi Marco, > > If you like, i can help you. Just need a schematic to see what you > want > to do. Targer power, voltage, etc... > > 73, Stefan > > Am 03.06.2017 16:02, schrieb marcocadeddu@tin.it: > > Hi Alan, Andy, Chris, > > > > I replaced the caps in the output LC with WIMA FKP1, the 2 caps wich > > replaces the missing half of the bridge are still Cornell Dubillier > > 940C serie (rated at 9A @100kHz), so now all the caps are pulse rated > > but... > > I regret to admit it, nothing changed :-(( > > Power out increases from 10 to 30Vdc and at 40Vdc after a first pulse > > the power slowly decreases till a couple of watts.. > > > > Just to check another thing: being the coil of the guard circuit > > disconnected, I jointed the 2 coils together (they are wound on the > > same support) increasing so the inductance of the L (25T more). Of > > course I had to retune and now I need C in the range of 5000pF but > this > > narrowed the 3dB bandwidth of the LC from abt 15kHz to abt 8kHz so is > > the Q increased! > > > > ... I should visit Decathlon and look for a fishing rod! > > > > your sincerely depressed IK1HSS > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > > Data: 2-giu-2017 15.58 > > A: > > Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > Hi Marco, I may well be wrong I was experimenting with 150W at 35V I > > measured 12 to 15A through the capacitors (from memory) .......the > > confirmation is that the change is permanent. I dont remember seeing > > any > > heating effects. Single ended Class E may be considerably different > to > > H-bridge. The currents a lower power will be less, about 1.5A or so > > (??) I > > am not sure it that would produce damage, but you would certainly see > > it as > > the power increased. > > > > Good Luck with it > > Alan > > G3NYK > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 2:00 PM > > Subject: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > > > Hi Alan, > > > > and thanks for joining :-) > > it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of "high > > currents".. > > The PA is an half bridge like > > Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these problem > > trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W).. > > Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested just in > case > > my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. > > 73 Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > > Data: 2-giu-2017 14.36 > > A: > > Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > Hi Marco I dont know where you are putting the caps but I am assuming > > they > > are passing a high RF corrent. I found that the old style (valve) > high > > voltage caps in my Class E test rig changed capacitance permanently > > during > > and after a run (capacitance reduced). I assumed that the current was > > fusing > > the foil connection to the lead-out wires. When using "pulse rated" > > capacitors as used in SMPSUs I had no further capacitance change > > problems. > > The ones I have are RIFA PHE 428 2000v from RS Components. I think > > Farnell > > do a WIMA equivalent. > > > > Best Wishes > > Alan > > G3NYK > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:06 PM > > Subject: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > > > now my thoughts are even more confused.... > > Hi Andy, me again.... > > after a long night of meditation, I remembered I had a bounch of old > > style mica capacitators 1000pF 1000V.. > > I put > > 9 of them in parallel to get the closer value to the 8800pF I had > > before. > > Of course the resonance moved a bit and now is on 134.5 kHz with 3dB > > bandwidth of 9 kHz (Q=15 I know is a bit to high..) so carried out > some > > tests on 134 kHz (of course on the dummyload) all without guard > circuit > > 1st test xfmr 7T/19T (Ae197mm² R50 mat T38): 2Wout @10Vdc; 6,5 > > Wout@20Vdc; 13,7Wout@30Vdc stable.. @40Vdc after a quick peak the > power > > slowly goes down till below 1W! > > 2nd test I had still on hands the previous xfmr 5T/12T (Ae197mm² same > > core as 1st test) so was worth to make a trial... same trend :-( for > > Vdc> 30V after a first peak... it goes down. > > I had another core available with different material (N30, Ae 154mm² > > R58) so I prepared a new xfmr with this core 7T/14T: > > 1,4Wout@10Vdc; 4,6Wout@20Vdc; 9,2Wout@30Vdc .... at 40Vdc a short > burst > > with almost 15Wout and then down down down... :-(((((( > > > > I noticed a difference in comparison to your project: you connected > the > > + and - rails to ground via 10nF and here I used 100nF caps could it > > explain this behaviour? > > > > 73 Marco > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.20 > > A: > > Ogg: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > that was also my thought.. but they run at room temperature: the > > resonance is obtained with 4 polyesther 2200 pF 2000 Vdc caps. the > > classic boxes 25x15x5mm > > > > Marco > > > > ---- > > Messaggio originale---- > > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.03 > > A: > > Ogg: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like > > capacitors > > heating up and changing its value. I can't think of any other > > component > > that will change with dissipation / heating. What type of capacitor > > are > > you using in the tank? > > > > Andy > > > > > > On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > wrote: > > > > > >> anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing > >> flowers? > >> > >> Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that > >> some effects in this area are present. > >> > >> I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected > >> simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. > >> The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output > >> > > is > > > >> stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output > >> starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at > 40 > >> and 50V. > >> The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts > from > >> 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. > >> > >> I need a long weekend of meditation... > >> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >> > >> > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > >> Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > >> Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 > >> A: > >> Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >> > >> Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D > >> > >> yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward > >> > > the > > > >> PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) > >> > >> the PS should > >> provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for > >> > > 20A > > > >> @ 25°C (13A @ 100°C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try ;-) > >> > >> I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level > >> where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm²Ae: if I > >> am > >> not totally wrong B should be< 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the > >> > > primary > > > >> Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel > is > >> running in its cage ;-) > >> > >> Thanks again for assistence > >> > >> Marco IK1HSS > >> > >> > >> > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >> Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 > >> A: > >> Cc: > >> Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >> > >> 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance > of > >> 6.8 > >> ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't > >> think > >> you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more > >> realistic. > >> > >> As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very > >> wrong. > >> I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core > >> > > Ae, > > > >> but > >> lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. > >> > >> V = 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax > >> > > of > > > >> 0.1 > >> that suggests 85V RMS. > >> Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . > >> Before > >> a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload = 13 ohms > >> > >> Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be > >> customised > >> to > >> you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper > >> settings > >> foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. > >> Only > >> when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard > circuit. > >> > >> When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) > >> unit > >> before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Hi Andy... me again... > >>> > >>> I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick > >>> dinner and connected all, but... > >>> > >>> now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my > >>> readings/calculations: > >>> (see attached picture) > >>> again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc > >>> > > after > > > >>> an initial burst it start to fall down.. > >>> I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 > >>> > >> kHz > >> > >>> with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the > >>> "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... > >>> > >>> mumble mumble > >>> > >>> I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at > >>> 180V! > >>> > >>> Marco, IK1HSS > >>> > >>> > >>> ----Messaggio originale---- > >>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >>> Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 > >>> A: > >>> Cc: > >>> Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >>> > >>> I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there > >>> > > the > > > >>> values are different from your statement in the email. It shows > >>> primary 5 > >>> turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 > >>> > > ohms > > > >>> which > >>> is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to > >>> > > the > > > >>> ideal > >>> Rl > >>> > >>> The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high > >>> > > a > > > >> Q > >> > >>> is > >>> used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the > >>> > >> region > >> > >>> of > >>> 6. > >>> > >>> Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 > >>> Watts > >>> from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will > >>> > > end > > > >>> up > >>> with high voltage and critical tuning > >>> > >>> Andy G4JNT > >>> > >>> On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Yes. > >>>> As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that > >>>> > > the > > > >>> peak > >>> > >>>> of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER > >>>> > > than > > > >>> the peak > >>> > >>>> by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more > >>>> > >> power > >> > >>> (1.6 > >>> > >>>> times) than it was supposed to. > >>>> > >>>> So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine > >>>> component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of > >>>> > > the > > > >>>> resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to > >>>> > >> RMS- > >> > >>> sine > >>> > >>>> ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a > >>>> > >>> further > >>> > >>>> factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. > >>>> > >>>> Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux > >>>> > >> in > >> a > >> > >>>> magnetic code, V = 4.44.F.N.A.B > >>>> The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes > >>>> > > about > > > >>> from > >>> > >>>> the same sort of sine to square transform. > >>>> > >>>> Andy > >>>> > >>>> On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>> > > it> > > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the > >>>>> > > same > > > >>> of > >>> > >>>>> Vrms before FETs make their work! > >>>>> > >>>>> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! > >>>>> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with > >>>>> > > the > > > >>>>> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) > >>>>> > >>>>> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to > >>>>> > > burnout > > > >>> the > >>> > >>>>> antenna hi > >>>>> > >>>>> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy > >>>>> > >>>>> 73 Marco, IK1HSS > >>>>> ----Messaggio originale---- > >>>>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >>>>> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 > >>>>> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", > >>>>> > >>>>> Cc: > >>>>> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>> > >>>>> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output > >>>>> transformer > >>>>> doesn't look right. > >>>>> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary > >>>>> > > of > > > >>> 12 > >>> > >>>>> turns...*" > >>>>> > >>>>> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. > >>>>> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 = 229V pk-pk > >>>>> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] = 81V RMS > >>>>> > >>>>> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms > >>>>> > >> (fund) > >> = > >> > >>>>> 0.45VDC > >>>>> > >>>>> For 500 Watts out, Rload = 81 ^ 2 / 500 = 13 ohms > >>>>> > >>>>> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) = > >>>>> > >> 1.9: > >> > >>>>> 1 so > >>>>> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 > >>>>> > >>> turns > >>> > >>>>> on > >>>>> the primary > >>>>> > >>>>> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary > >>>>> > > exactly > > > >>> as > >>> > >>>>> the > >>>>> square of the voltage. > >>>>> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: > >>>>> > >>>>> 12V DC = 12V pk-pk = 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi = 5.4V RMS > >>>>> > >>> (fundamental) > >>> > >>>>> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 = 2.2 Watts > >>>>> > >>>>> check using ratio of voltages, squared : > >>>>> > >>>>> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W = 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. > >>>>> QED > >>>>> > >>>>> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 = > >>>>> > >> 78 > >> > >>>>> ohms > >>>>> > >>>>> At 40V DC == 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 = 4.1 watts > >>>>> > >> which > >> > >>> is > >>> > >>>>> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, > >>>>> > > but > > > >>> the > >>> > >>>>> low > >>>>> power is in the area of what you measured.. > >>>>> > >>>>> Andy G4JNT > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>>> > > it> > > > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Chris, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I > >>>>>> > >> had > >> > >>> no > >>> > >>>>>> success.. > >>>>>> As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the > >>>>>> attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... > >>>>>> Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and > >>>>>> suggestion are welcome! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 73, Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original message----- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it > >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 > >>>>>> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi LF, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > >>>>>> > >> of > >> > >>>>>> Andy.. > >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > >>>>>> > >> the > >> > >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you > >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is > >>>>>> > > believed > > > >> to > >> > >>> be > >>> > >>>>>> clean. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" > >>>>>> To: > >>>>>> Cc: > >>>>>> Bcc: > >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) > >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>>> Hi LF, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > >>>>>> > >> of > >> > >>>>>> Andy.. > >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > >>>>>> > >> the > >> > >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you > >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is > >>>>>> > > believed > > > >> to > >> > >>> be > >>> > >>>>>> clean. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jun 4 17:21:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS,STOX_REPLY_TYPE,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v54FLYW4022108 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 17:21:35 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHXGS-00064Q-DQ for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 16:16:24 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHXGR-00064H-IN for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 16:16:23 +0100 Received: from rgout0503.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk ([65.20.0.224] helo=rgout05.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHXGN-0008Qx-F9 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 16:16:22 +0100 X-OWM-Source-IP: 109.146.90.196 (GB) X-OWM-Env-Sender: alan.melia@btinternet.com X-Junkmail-Premium-Raw: score=8/50,refid=2.7.2:2017.5.11.134516:17:8.707,ip=,rules=NO_URI_FOUND, NO_CTA_URI_FOUND, NO_MESSAGE_ID, NO_URI_HTTPS, TO_MALFORMED Received: from gnat (109.146.90.196) by rgout05.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk (9.0.019.13-1) (authenticated as alan.melia@btinternet.com) id 58482E5912BF5425 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 16:16:17 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=btcpcloud; t=1496589379; bh=CehAohinVVCNporgkw+bGQtmA0QWbcYFR/L8ErAp204=; h=Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:X-Mailer; b=POhSOBa4LYgu0Lu3xbo9pITMPXlH9V5fKW+15Or1ybECmzjaPamCBCpJj2ecZD+CaWFeS0jbR0Ts67kk773qaPO4jhpHfLPkniWHLf+LrGw/g8MRWZob/eV1xIVGifitFc1oger8KZfz2VJYv6rS+vJUpW3iqLongsrqWaClCds= Message-ID: <4A4A1F7ADCCD4E7C917CA3BCD11A7E45@gnat> From: "Alan Melia" To: References: <15c7330daa3.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 16:16:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Scan-Signature: 9473a6b6150edcbf389a1769b0fe4327 Subject: Re: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11882 Hi Marco I'm glad you found the problem despite my "diversionary" posting :-)) It is much better to have a lot of possibilities rather than none, even if the possibilities are "impossible". Be careful jumping to 180V ! I guess you need and old fashioned linear supply and a variac.....that could be "exciting". Best Wishes Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2017 2:00 PM Subject: R: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... ...probably the previous message is missed somewhere... Nuntio vobis gaudium magnum!!! After replacing the driver xfmr with a new one wound on a BN43-202 core (not the best but the only available here with decent AL and a larger cross section) with 10T/22T/22T, the amplifier runs since a couple of hors at 50 Vdc supply. No warming of xfmrs, with 35W output also the dummy load is cold, Only thing warming is the L of the output tank, after about half an hour, the temp is close to 50°C (and the hot melt glue used is soft..) I also reconnected the L of the guard circuit: here the comparison Vd Idd Ig Pin Pout no guard circuit 50 0,87 / 45W 36W load 50R w guard 50 0,41 0,16 20,5W 13,2W load 50R w guard 50 0,31 0,26 15,5W 8,4W load 25R w guard 50 0,03 0 / / open because of the small Ig with 50 ohm load I guess that the 25T link is too much but is just my feeling being my first approach to the guard circuit... I'm looking around if I have larger diameter litz to make a new L for the tank: this one uses 1,5mm² conductor and I should have hopefully enough 2,5mm² hidden somewhere :-) Marco, IK1HSS ----Messaggio originale---- Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it Data: 3-giu-2017 20.34 A: Ogg: R: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... mmmmmmm Thanks Markus, Alan, Andy: I found something that unfortunately needs to unbild some parts before to change and hopefully fix... After check of the dummyload, directionalcoupler, attenuator and selective voltmeter, was time to check signals to the gates. After fight to engage the probes to the gate, first of all checked with no supply waveforms and wave amplitudes and previously reported it was ok. Then power on! 10Vdc ok 20Vdc ok 30 Vdc ok from 30 to 40 Vdc waveforms were changing: on one gate the square started to be smoothed on a corner, on the other gate the top of the square from flat was changing into a saddle and at 50Vdc the saddle transformed into 3 peaks! I tilted the PA and was looking around.. the chip was a bit warm and touching around nothing changed. Ouch!!!! I touched the xfmr and it was very hot!!! down with supply and let it getting cold. Then again 10Vdc for 5 minutes all OK 20Vdc for 5 minutes all OK 30Vdc for 5 minutes all OK 35Vdc and after a while the binocular core was warming up and the waveforms to the gates deteriorating.. some more volts and it was again very hot. So now I have to find another core, wind the new transformer and connect to the gates (this will be the annoying phase..) So I guess that Markus was not wrong in some ways, changing the supply makes some change on the FETs and the core of the driver xfmr saturates.. More news later on this channel Marco ----Messaggio originale---- Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com Data: 3-giu-2017 17.21 A: Ogg: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... There is a famous quote by Sherlock Holmes that goes "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." You have shown by your substitutions that the drop-off in power cannot be the ferrite core or the the capacitors. So they now become "the impossible". What remains, however improbable, are the FETs, and something else. The FETs are well within their ratings and at low power are giving the expected output, so it is more than likely they are behaving properly so look for other improbables first There is something else that could become an "improbable". What are you using to measure the power output? And is it your ONLY means of measuring the RF level. Could this be failing at the higher RF? I have seen a diode detector do something similar as the reverse voltage across the diode reaches breakdown. Some small Schottky diodes can do this at surprisingly low voltages, so if you haven't checked their specification before use... If you use a power meter, is it designed for use this low in frequency? If not, the LF could be heating something. Check and see if the DC changes with the power fall-off. If DC power stays the same and indicated RF falls, that points very definitely to the sensor / detector. IF DC falls with the RF, it suggests FETS or something early on. If not FETS and not the RF measurement - there is even less left to look at - so consider other "improbables". There won't be many left by now. Could there be some kind of feedback into the driver - unlikely but you're eliminating the impossibles one-by-one Andy G4JNT On 3 June 2017 at 15:44, marcocadeddu@tin.it wrote: > Hi Stefan, > > and thank you :-) so you have too something to mumble while sending > VLF SMS ;-) > There is nothing really new.. I started from an avalable > chassis with on board a PS giving 180Vdc (1200W) and assembled the > Andy's half bridge 700W switching PA and before give it the full power > I'm checking with lower DC supply. Attached you see the schematic with > some change at the moment.. > The output xfmr has 7T/19T, the coil of the guard circuit is not > connected (now is in serie with L2) and the resonating caps now are > 5x1000pF in parallel. > The aim is finally with 180Vdc of supply have an output of 0,5÷1kW > but.... as you probably red in the previous messages, from 10 to 30Vdc > the PA runs, at low power of course (up to 15W), and complies the > calculations; with supply between 30 and 50 Vdc the output go down to a > couple of W. > I made several trials it the last days, changing the core of the xfmr, > the turn ratio, the kind of capacitators but nothing changes (or at > least the change are within a fraction of dB). > > that's the sad history Stefan... > All thoughts and suggestions are welcome! (including go to fish ;-)) ) > Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: selberdenken@posteo.de > Data: 3-giu-2017 16.19 > A: > Ogg: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Hi Marco, > > If you like, i can help you. Just need a schematic to see what you > want > to do. Targer power, voltage, etc... > > 73, Stefan > > Am 03.06.2017 16:02, schrieb marcocadeddu@tin.it: > > Hi Alan, Andy, Chris, > > > > I replaced the caps in the output LC with WIMA FKP1, the 2 caps wich > > replaces the missing half of the bridge are still Cornell Dubillier > > 940C serie (rated at 9A @100kHz), so now all the caps are pulse rated > > but... > > I regret to admit it, nothing changed :-(( > > Power out increases from 10 to 30Vdc and at 40Vdc after a first pulse > > the power slowly decreases till a couple of watts.. > > > > Just to check another thing: being the coil of the guard circuit > > disconnected, I jointed the 2 coils together (they are wound on the > > same support) increasing so the inductance of the L (25T more). Of > > course I had to retune and now I need C in the range of 5000pF but > this > > narrowed the 3dB bandwidth of the LC from abt 15kHz to abt 8kHz so is > > the Q increased! > > > > ... I should visit Decathlon and look for a fishing rod! > > > > your sincerely depressed IK1HSS > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > > Data: 2-giu-2017 15.58 > > A: > > Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > Hi Marco, I may well be wrong I was experimenting with 150W at 35V I > > measured 12 to 15A through the capacitors (from memory) .......the > > confirmation is that the change is permanent. I dont remember seeing > > any > > heating effects. Single ended Class E may be considerably different > to > > H-bridge. The currents a lower power will be less, about 1.5A or so > > (??) I > > am not sure it that would produce damage, but you would certainly see > > it as > > the power increased. > > > > Good Luck with it > > Alan > > G3NYK > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 2:00 PM > > Subject: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > > > Hi Alan, > > > > and thanks for joining :-) > > it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of "high > > currents".. > > The PA is an half bridge like > > Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these problem > > trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W).. > > Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested just in > case > > my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. > > 73 Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com > > Data: 2-giu-2017 14.36 > > A: > > Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > Hi Marco I dont know where you are putting the caps but I am assuming > > they > > are passing a high RF corrent. I found that the old style (valve) > high > > voltage caps in my Class E test rig changed capacitance permanently > > during > > and after a run (capacitance reduced). I assumed that the current was > > fusing > > the foil connection to the lead-out wires. When using "pulse rated" > > capacitors as used in SMPSUs I had no further capacitance change > > problems. > > The ones I have are RIFA PHE 428 2000v from RS Components. I think > > Farnell > > do a WIMA equivalent. > > > > Best Wishes > > Alan > > G3NYK > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:06 PM > > Subject: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > > > now my thoughts are even more confused.... > > Hi Andy, me again.... > > after a long night of meditation, I remembered I had a bounch of old > > style mica capacitators 1000pF 1000V.. > > I put > > 9 of them in parallel to get the closer value to the 8800pF I had > > before. > > Of course the resonance moved a bit and now is on 134.5 kHz with 3dB > > bandwidth of 9 kHz (Q=15 I know is a bit to high..) so carried out > some > > tests on 134 kHz (of course on the dummyload) all without guard > circuit > > 1st test xfmr 7T/19T (Ae197mm² R50 mat T38): 2Wout @10Vdc; 6,5 > > Wout@20Vdc; 13,7Wout@30Vdc stable.. @40Vdc after a quick peak the > power > > slowly goes down till below 1W! > > 2nd test I had still on hands the previous xfmr 5T/12T (Ae197mm² same > > core as 1st test) so was worth to make a trial... same trend :-( for > > Vdc> 30V after a first peak... it goes down. > > I had another core available with different material (N30, Ae 154mm² > > R58) so I prepared a new xfmr with this core 7T/14T: > > 1,4Wout@10Vdc; 4,6Wout@20Vdc; 9,2Wout@30Vdc .... at 40Vdc a short > burst > > with almost 15Wout and then down down down... :-(((((( > > > > I noticed a difference in comparison to your project: you connected > the > > + and - rails to ground via 10nF and here I used 100nF caps could it > > explain this behaviour? > > > > 73 Marco > > > > ----Messaggio originale---- > > Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.20 > > A: > > Ogg: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > that was also my thought.. but they run at room temperature: the > > resonance is obtained with 4 polyesther 2200 pF 2000 Vdc caps. the > > classic boxes 25x15x5mm > > > > Marco > > > > ---- > > Messaggio originale---- > > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > > Data: 1-giu-2017 22.03 > > A: > > Ogg: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > > > If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like > > capacitors > > heating up and changing its value. I can't think of any other > > component > > that will change with dissipation / heating. What type of capacitor > > are > > you using in the tank? > > > > Andy > > > > > > On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it > > wrote: > > > > > >> anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing > >> flowers? > >> > >> Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that > >> some effects in this area are present. > >> > >> I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected > >> simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. > >> The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output > >> > > is > > > >> stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output > >> starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at > 40 > >> and 50V. > >> The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts > from > >> 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. > >> > >> I need a long weekend of meditation... > >> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >> > >> > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > >> Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it > >> Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 > >> A: > >> Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >> > >> Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D > >> > >> yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward > >> > > the > > > >> PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) > >> > >> the PS should > >> provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for > >> > > 20A > > > >> @ 25°C (13A @ 100°C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try ;-) > >> > >> I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level > >> where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm²Ae: if I > >> am > >> not totally wrong B should be< 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the > >> > > primary > > > >> Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel > is > >> running in its cage ;-) > >> > >> Thanks again for assistence > >> > >> Marco IK1HSS > >> > >> > >> > >> ----Messaggio originale---- > >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >> Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 > >> A: > >> Cc: > >> Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >> > >> 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance > of > >> 6.8 > >> ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't > >> think > >> you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more > >> realistic. > >> > >> As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very > >> wrong. > >> I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core > >> > > Ae, > > > >> but > >> lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. > >> > >> V = 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax > >> > > of > > > >> 0.1 > >> that suggests 85V RMS. > >> Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . > >> Before > >> a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload = 13 ohms > >> > >> Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be > >> customised > >> to > >> you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper > >> settings > >> foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. > >> Only > >> when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard > circuit. > >> > >> When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) > >> unit > >> before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Hi Andy... me again... > >>> > >>> I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick > >>> dinner and connected all, but... > >>> > >>> now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my > >>> readings/calculations: > >>> (see attached picture) > >>> again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc > >>> > > after > > > >>> an initial burst it start to fall down.. > >>> I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 > >>> > >> kHz > >> > >>> with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the > >>> "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... > >>> > >>> mumble mumble > >>> > >>> I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at > >>> 180V! > >>> > >>> Marco, IK1HSS > >>> > >>> > >>> ----Messaggio originale---- > >>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >>> Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 > >>> A: > >>> Cc: > >>> Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >>> > >>> I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there > >>> > > the > > > >>> values are different from your statement in the email. It shows > >>> primary 5 > >>> turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 > >>> > > ohms > > > >>> which > >>> is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to > >>> > > the > > > >>> ideal > >>> Rl > >>> > >>> The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high > >>> > > a > > > >> Q > >> > >>> is > >>> used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the > >>> > >> region > >> > >>> of > >>> 6. > >>> > >>> Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 > >>> Watts > >>> from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will > >>> > > end > > > >>> up > >>> with high voltage and critical tuning > >>> > >>> Andy G4JNT > >>> > >>> On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Yes. > >>>> As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that > >>>> > > the > > > >>> peak > >>> > >>>> of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER > >>>> > > than > > > >>> the peak > >>> > >>>> by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more > >>>> > >> power > >> > >>> (1.6 > >>> > >>>> times) than it was supposed to. > >>>> > >>>> So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine > >>>> component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of > >>>> > > the > > > >>>> resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to > >>>> > >> RMS- > >> > >>> sine > >>> > >>>> ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a > >>>> > >>> further > >>> > >>>> factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. > >>>> > >>>> Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux > >>>> > >> in > >> a > >> > >>>> magnetic code, V = 4.44.F.N.A.B > >>>> The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes > >>>> > > about > > > >>> from > >>> > >>>> the same sort of sine to square transform. > >>>> > >>>> Andy > >>>> > >>>> On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>> > > it> > > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the > >>>>> > > same > > > >>> of > >>> > >>>>> Vrms before FETs make their work! > >>>>> > >>>>> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! > >>>>> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with > >>>>> > > the > > > >>>>> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) > >>>>> > >>>>> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to > >>>>> > > burnout > > > >>> the > >>> > >>>>> antenna hi > >>>>> > >>>>> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy > >>>>> > >>>>> 73 Marco, IK1HSS > >>>>> ----Messaggio originale---- > >>>>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > >>>>> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 > >>>>> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", > >>>>> > >>>>> Cc: > >>>>> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>> > >>>>> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output > >>>>> transformer > >>>>> doesn't look right. > >>>>> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary > >>>>> > > of > > > >>> 12 > >>> > >>>>> turns...*" > >>>>> > >>>>> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. > >>>>> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 = 229V pk-pk > >>>>> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] = 81V RMS > >>>>> > >>>>> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms > >>>>> > >> (fund) > >> = > >> > >>>>> 0.45VDC > >>>>> > >>>>> For 500 Watts out, Rload = 81 ^ 2 / 500 = 13 ohms > >>>>> > >>>>> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) = > >>>>> > >> 1.9: > >> > >>>>> 1 so > >>>>> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 > >>>>> > >>> turns > >>> > >>>>> on > >>>>> the primary > >>>>> > >>>>> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary > >>>>> > > exactly > > > >>> as > >>> > >>>>> the > >>>>> square of the voltage. > >>>>> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: > >>>>> > >>>>> 12V DC = 12V pk-pk = 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi = 5.4V RMS > >>>>> > >>> (fundamental) > >>> > >>>>> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 = 2.2 Watts > >>>>> > >>>>> check using ratio of voltages, squared : > >>>>> > >>>>> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W = 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. > >>>>> QED > >>>>> > >>>>> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 = > >>>>> > >> 78 > >> > >>>>> ohms > >>>>> > >>>>> At 40V DC == 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 = 4.1 watts > >>>>> > >> which > >> > >>> is > >>> > >>>>> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, > >>>>> > > but > > > >>> the > >>> > >>>>> low > >>>>> power is in the area of what you measured.. > >>>>> > >>>>> Andy G4JNT > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>>> > > it> > > > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Chris, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I > >>>>>> > >> had > >> > >>> no > >>> > >>>>>> success.. > >>>>>> As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the > >>>>>> attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... > >>>>>> Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and > >>>>>> suggestion are welcome! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 73, Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original message----- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it > >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 > >>>>>> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi LF, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > >>>>>> > >> of > >> > >>>>>> Andy.. > >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > >>>>>> > >> the > >> > >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you > >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is > >>>>>> > > believed > > > >> to > >> > >>> be > >>> > >>>>>> clean. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" > >>>>>> To: > >>>>>> Cc: > >>>>>> Bcc: > >>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) > >>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... > >>>>>> Hi LF, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! > >>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( > >>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge > >>>>>> > >> of > >> > >>>>>> Andy.. > >>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to > >>>>>> > >> the > >> > >>>>>> 180Vdc supply? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you > >>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is > >>>>>> > > believed > > > >> to > >> > >>> be > >>> > >>>>>> clean. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jun 4 17:29:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS, T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v54FT8Lq022128 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 17:29:10 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHXPS-0006CV-N8 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 16:25:42 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHXPS-0006CM-65 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 16:25:42 +0100 Received: from mail-wm0-x236.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c09::236]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHXPP-0008W2-Fn for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 16:25:40 +0100 Received: by mail-wm0-x236.google.com with SMTP id 7so56562743wmo.1 for ; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 08:25:39 -0700 (PDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:date:message-id:to:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=7sxhYmnEIvGeLI1Duydemt9swQsnbWfkEZiEjWHJpzo=; b=f5K9YECOWkM5wGQv8tfIDWVTLSj9JLCT4QWMrYiDqyWSa0uPBxLhdGGD7loDbgKlWk fHVNsM+nkq+fpRTqMyPoNFTzVlv4I1yVDMk+AdCfnLqCddLBDqolN2OaSFTMRNt/+YmY PjiQ3X9bWItvU0ShBmiqDGZs3ZoOXW8l2hmYTAmV24q7gtvygYPgqbRBYc9hWixgKntl 2NFiiwq38dQyP5XsgO9HLaYeZ80137p/sOJNZiYgg1Jxf7eW7RJwo2pPKx7K33BHxXQy z4Fe7nnzig9u3rCOIhPyIKoFWcQz1bsBRUqCAlMg3FKTHgxPcuTJm6MhZdK7aXnYZwFt uCqw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:date:message-id:to:subject:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7sxhYmnEIvGeLI1Duydemt9swQsnbWfkEZiEjWHJpzo=; b=BXl6LmNtDI5NCt+JOt73fbD3vYY5c6Jz5Nf6ooHBUaL2V/Sgd/u+z/vPVJ9HPQnrXS FSVKKLthZAAxtsTe6j/BKIVOh4jGwVFEXiKr7pT8i2PGaAUDz0MmQ4IIjSaNf6FqzWze NVo16mqsVACFwoZZlF99pdgbSQCtpo7VTFUWBPQeBGFY8DCg/Ij2J2aG7cgjGe2+FA4X N2oph4/mHpxoZ1dyu3HJDXwrLU7DTKGPcx6OBycHq+85W1u3iHDtWvKVfYhfgSMAYQ17 YIKVeUt2xSlTzeSC2CxPPHTymDYU9WIx14mK4SKuTw40LWiqD6kfRaHwREhiFN2FqWwv pwzw== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcBsvuaIplhWd6iCL7FTIz0uppystxNvP81wPugeydHQGdjdmZ2C 53z/I0Z3/5h5pArv X-Received: by 10.28.229.144 with SMTP id c138mr4698082wmh.60.1496589937812; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 08:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OfficeWin7.lan (82-70-254-222.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk. [82.70.254.222]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v22sm12418566wrd.38.2017.06.04.08.25.37 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 04 Jun 2017 08:25:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Wilson X-Google-Original-From: Chris Wilson Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 16:25:36 +0100 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <936512892.20170604162536@gmail.com> To: Alan Melia In-Reply-To: <4A4A1F7ADCCD4E7C917CA3BCD11A7E45@gnat> References: <15c7330daa3.marcocadeddu@tin.it> <4A4A1F7ADCCD4E7C917CA3BCD11A7E45@gnat> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scan-Signature: 739d4fb39bd02fc5a2de5437a39bb056 Subject: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11883 Hello Alan, No, what he needs is a video camera, and the courage to post the result here for scrutiny, we need a bit of fun now and again ;) Good luck Marco, what's the worst that can happen.... :) Sunday, June 4, 2017, 4:16:15 PM, you wrote: > Hi Marco I'm glad you found the problem despite my "diversionary" posting > :-)) It is much better to have a lot of possibilities rather than none, even > if the possibilities are "impossible". Be careful jumping to 180V ! I guess > you need and old fashioned linear supply and a variac.....that could be > "exciting". > Best Wishes > Alan > G3NYK -- Best regards, Chris mailto:dead_fets@gmail.com From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jun 4 17:53:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v54FrgJv022198 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 17:53:43 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHXmm-0006P4-0W for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 16:49:48 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHXml-0006Ov-Ck for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 16:49:47 +0100 Received: from mail-lf0-x231.google.com ([2a00:1450:4010:c07::231]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHXmi-00009g-3j for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 16:49:46 +0100 Received: by mail-lf0-x231.google.com with SMTP id o83so13221905lff.3 for ; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 08:49:43 -0700 (PDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=3fK6/PAh3IMvHrA81Sl9I5bX33w2OSgorky908tFhtQ=; b=NH2fNielI9rCJHJRwVexmGx1wP1t4gJ7QDP5uPvoUncLYB6jXFAssYrhYNf8BjbaFd vUVHz9It8VplJi2VNyt13YCX7kIOWJ/uEPXwtRX0tYfuP5dTKQiTu2r6rfN/rfV95TXx azWIdvk4DxSKyzljR/4tyhiRqEAKVhhVWaWWVSr7QHFCZocqjCaLGbV7iTjM6DDQqmNb P34M4WhS6gsszIrIbZBSbpjCq4x65K9gEpBCMFsrnq5JxojF8rGf9dg5iIw8HjdZ0a/9 9bbeLW3jhYyS9RpE9uWMedrWpFrJ8EssrnGMe8yoFbOTF0L3bAci3cSSo07PgHuQhFhM PI8g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=3fK6/PAh3IMvHrA81Sl9I5bX33w2OSgorky908tFhtQ=; b=lJR+REDgk0wWOj8ir3IutlPTMV2z/VbPS7zhZaJc3ILqLGIVcYR773dTt2Q7+a5AzX EX2bRemYdeXilP5Gw0XlTlBkNyS+to8szPRuzcrIlbGuaG89Qmmu1PlRYMgeatagiohS xzfWVwAJj/TyS20TfsBeA9ulWyiS596fvZOzwlm9xbKDqbZAYF2m029r/8cP0rklXMiU oiHjvGE52CyOmZ+4t47UHVKYCcuwDoEAZ5qmaFbtRUOYKSQX118I82xLTHN7mcYUynY0 WWskNW+fAkrU1P/9aMgeS8ncpQ3jrbpUhun+GEI4sqbLE9RgkIjpOdYPw/rQhWETpRV3 4kGg== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcAbe770JH4p2BVS9rLZSAyj+aUdWjShN0oeJbx7lZjqqBOVKxQL gm7ATAsh+g0kWiRjx7sBbDbJhTREG8Xz X-Received: by 10.25.155.7 with SMTP id d7mr4875097lfe.74.1496591382445; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 08:49:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.156.13 with HTTP; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 08:49:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <936512892.20170604162536@gmail.com> References: <15c7330daa3.marcocadeddu@tin.it> <4A4A1F7ADCCD4E7C917CA3BCD11A7E45@gnat> <936512892.20170604162536@gmail.com> From: Andy Talbot Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 16:49:41 +0100 Message-ID: To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Scan-Signature: 1708620d3ce65bee0beaaede7929769a Subject: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114020b2b9873105512455f7" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11884 --001a114020b2b9873105512455f7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Something like this ... http://www.g4jnt.com/QRO_LF_DoesThis.JPG 'jnt :-) On 4 June 2017 at 16:25, Chris Wilson wrote: > Hello Alan, > > > No, what he needs is a video camera, and the courage to post the > result here for scrutiny, we need a bit of fun now and again ;) > > Good luck Marco, what's the worst that can happen.... :) > > --001a114020b2b9873105512455f7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
'jnt :-)


On 4 June 2017 at 16:25, Chris Wilson <= dead.fets@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Alan,


No, what he needs is a video camera, and the courage to post the
result here for scrutiny, we need a bit of fun now and again ;)

Good luck Marco, what's the worst that can happen.... :)

--001a114020b2b9873105512455f7-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jun 4 18:08:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,HTML_OBFUSCATE_10_20, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v54G8AT1022285 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 18:08:11 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHY0T-0006YU-18 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:03:57 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHY0R-0006YL-JU for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:03:55 +0100 Received: from mail-oi0-x22c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22c]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHY0M-0000DM-EJ for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:03:54 +0100 Received: by mail-oi0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id s3so45422946oia.0 for ; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 09:03:50 -0700 (PDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=DlKSIWWvx1kZZxGDHoz1dQAvgTndoEpTSGw4A1PznMQ=; b=PAnj7YshKjnMYLGpdC3t22E42sXufYqw8rFnYQhL9+wNmTDqZgNgyjgxNiPdyo3uSz 7AJOPBCkjPepI1LwG+TIetHVzlCZ3ARi3DPEmmNCbRRXh+HWJKr1tUUpkXjljjJT42Sp CxIH0jOQj8hp4jI3v81e3KtPn74HoBZALK2un12JDYlXmZbJ5zmpa48+WCmH9jQfbwiS QoCPzJlyFoiDfKER+qiCwxiLr65PDTf7q4xf/6WT2pC2ZkJ5ZGf40R5Ra/E6RNvPjwnp UWUJ3UzAr0/AWW1ls+ywAb7x+pkWiMKMsXqZPVKN6WtpwqsQZdi120wV73yS3X8IPmkK 3w2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=DlKSIWWvx1kZZxGDHoz1dQAvgTndoEpTSGw4A1PznMQ=; b=CC9xq31m48PG55jumWfhYqgwI5l8rrqkPrLLSjPxV9slAxBj7WPEdtDMiTndvmDZEe dr8w48zFTtAqZb0tigQOjbSaztxB9tJ917o+a2/lO6xZLhLrQ58OT8oY4ZoSJnboiDKN bnwV1BLPLwn/XmWzW7xQALvEYKy9BjRrCGoCN2GeGLKS6iCjhzbFn3InJQrtPxDCyKAJ s28LjsS0opG796IKekXdWt9VVpm9V6C24+yMHBKkOTcXK6Jc4QbJ1+dmDpJLEV1sZyc8 PpUBiDOPXe5zKheH1AAlVBLsxz7u0EIHwKonqX958iqQuCVq5VArZD4BnTER9y98/HAX z+Hg== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcDXttkTVNJ1PNB68IfBjdZLfC5KtLOkGF5kI+gPk1hQJ0dRxJQF DglP6ZS5yUanY24dD/jQfsMdBxWF7DWR X-Received: by 10.202.181.68 with SMTP id e65mr7935542oif.212.1496592228241; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 09:03:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.98.103 with HTTP; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 09:03:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex R7NT Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 19:03:47 +0300 Message-ID: To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Scan-Signature: 4bc3491b614f043141ec87e58a12dcbf Subject: LF: June 3-4 Best QRB/reports Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113ce70e23576305512488b2" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11885 --001a113ce70e23576305512488b2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" *June 3-4 Best QRB/reports WSPR15 / WSPR2 >500km / OP32 / OPds32 :* 2017-06-04 08:44 WH2XND 0.137527 -28 0 DM33xt 10 KL7L BP51ip *4059* 331 (1) 2017-06-04 08:00 WH2XND 0.137527 -20 0 DM33xt 10 WA3TTS/2 EN90xn *2915* 66 (82) 01:18 136 R7NT de G3XDV Op32 *2835* km -35 dB F:7% in Welwyn, IO91vt 1542.2 Hz with 200w + EsLoop (1) 00:18 136 R7NT de PA0RDT Op32 *2574* km -37 dB F:3% in Middelburg 1541,1 Hz with 200w + EsLoop (2) 21:18 136 R7NT de PA7EY Op32 Deep Search *2491* km -45 dB in Amsterdam 1542,5 Hz with 200w + EsLoop (1) 22:18 136 R7NT de DL6II Op32 -36 dB F:45% in JO30NX (*2335* km) nr Cologne + PA0RDT 137540.7 Hz (2) 2017-06-03 23:36 G3XDV *2266*km 137537.881Hz 4mHz -44.4dBOp 100% 18.7dB SV8RV (1) 23:37 136 G3XDV de SV8RV-10 Op32 Deep Search *2265* km -39 dB in Zakynthos(Zante) isl. GREECE 1538,1 Hz with ERP0.4w + inv-L (1) 2017-06-04 01:18 R7NT *2234*km 137540.924Hz 2mHz -42.3dBOp 93% 19.0dB DK7FC (3) 2017-06-04 01:14 IK1HSS 0.137460 -23 0 JN35tb 0.05 OH2EAT KP20xw *2134* 28 (10) 2017-06-03 23:18 R7NT *2060*km 137540.919Hz 4mHz -41.1dBOp 100% 20.2dB DF6NM (5) 23:37 136 G3XDV de EW6X Op32 -36 dB F:45% in KO45kl (*1944* km) Polotsk + miniwhip 137538.1 Hz (1) 2017-06-04 00:20 2E0ILY 0.137550 -27 0 IO82qv 0.2 OH2EAT KP20xw *1930* 51 (2) 2017-06-03 22:18 R7NT *1876*km 137540.926Hz 4mHz -38.5dBOp 85% 20.3dB IZ7SLZ (6) 2017-06-03 23:30 R7NT 0.137602 -33 0 KN97lf 200 SV8RV KM07ks *1811* 241 (5) 2017-06-03 23:30 R7NT 0.137419 -23 1 KN97lf 200 SV8RV-10 KM07ks *1811* 241 (6) 2017-06-03 23:18 R7NT *1811*km 137540.815Hz 124mHz -38.5dBOp 100% 20.1dB SV8RV (7) 00:18 136 R7NT de SV8RV-10 Op32 *1809* km -32 dB F:13% in Zakynthos(Zante) isl. GREECE 1541,1 Hz with 200w + EsLoop (6) 2017-06-03 23:36 G3XDV *1796*km 137538.042Hz 3mHz -38.3dBOp 78% 21.1dB IZ7SLZ (2) 2017-06-03 20:30 R7NT 0.137602 -31 0 KN97lf 200 OH2EAT KP20xw *1737* 336 (4) 2017-06-04 11:20 WH2XND 0.137527 +4 0 DM33xt 10 W7IUV DN07dg *1629* 339 (266) 21:18 136 R7NT de RA1ADF Op32 -35 dB F:49% in KO59HU (*1505* km) S.-Petersburg + T h -10m 137542.0 Hz (3) 23:37 136 G3XDV de EA5DOM-1 Op32 Deep Search *1472* km -40 dB in Albir 1538,3 Hz with ERP0.4w + inv-L (1) 23:18 136 R7NT de UA4WPF Op32 *1445* km -30 dB F:18% in Izhevsk 2017-06-03 20:30 R7NT 0.137602 -30 0 KN97lf 200 EW6X KO45kl *1152* 327 (3) 23:18 136 R7NT de EW6X Op32 -38 dB F:47% in KO45kl (*1151* km) Polotsk + miniwhip 137541.1 Hz (1) 2017-06-03 20:18 R7NT *1045*km 137540.959Hz 97mHz -30.8dBOp 62% 20.5dB YO/4X1RF (11) 2017-06-04 03:40 2E0ILY 0.137550 -24 0 IO82qv 0.2 DF4UE JN48rr *965* 114 (9) 20:18 136 R7NT de RA3TGZ Op32 *908* km -35 dB F:3%_Ini in Sarov 1541,2 Hz with 200w + EsLoop (1) 2017-06-04 04:26 M0DSZ 0.137533 -23 -1 IO82ls 0.1 DK7FC JN49ik *899* 110 (8 ) 2017-06-04 07:00 2E0ILY 0.137550 -11 0 IO82qv 0.2 DK7FC JN49ik *878* 111 (24) 2017-06-03 23:36 G3XDV *843*km 137538.041Hz 2mHz -30.5dBOp 78% 21.1dB DF6NM (3) 2017-06-04 00:54 IK1HSS 0.137463 -21 0 JN35tb 0.05 PA7EY JO22jj *841* 347 (22) 2017-06-04 03:52 WH2XND 0.137527 -8 0 DM33xt 10 KU7Z DN41af *825* 0 (4) 2017-06-04 02:16 IK1HSS 0.137460 -23 0 JN35tb 0.05 PI4THT JO32kf *799* 356 (4) 2017-06-04 04:26 M0DSZ 0.137533 -16 0 IO82ls 0.1 DL6II JO30nx *725* 102 (26) 2017-06-04 04:20 2E0ILY 0.137550 -4 0 IO82qv 0.2 DL6II JO30nx *701* 104 (24) 2017-06-04 00:54 IK1HSS 0.137461 -24 0 JN35tb 0.05 DF2JP JO31hh *699* 354 (18) 2017-06-03 23:36 G3XDV *682*km 137538.043Hz 3mHz -31.1dBOp 93% 21.7dB DK7FC (3) 2017-06-04 05:14 M0DSZ 0.137534 -18 0 IO82ls 0.1 DF2JP JO31hh *680* 100 (16) 2017-06-04 04:26 M0DSZ 0.137533 -20 0 IO82ls 0.1 PI4THT JO32kf *673* 91 (11) 2017-06-04 01:58 IK1HSS 0.137461 -18 0 JN35tb 0.05 DL6II JO30nx *659* 357 (37) 2017-06-04 04:00 2E0ILY 0.137550 -5 0 IO82qv 0.2 DF2JP JO31hh *655* 102 (24) 2017-06-04 02:00 2E0ILY 0.137550 -26 0 IO82qv 0.2 PA0MBO JO32ke *647* 93 (1) 2017-06-04 04:00 2E0ILY 0.137550 -11 0 IO82qv 0.2 PI4THT JO32kf *646* 93 (23) 2017-06-04 05:40 M0DSZ 0.137535 -15 0 IO82ls 0.1 PA7EY JO22jj *531* 91 (26) 23:37 136 G3XDV de DL6II Op32 -36 dB F:47% in JO30NX (*516* km) nr Cologne + PA0RDT 137538.5 Hz (1) 2017-06-04 05:40 2E0ILY 0.137552 -1 0 IO82qv 0.2 PA7EY JO22jj *503* 93 (21) 23:37 136 G3XDV de PA7EY Op32 *347* km -19 dB F:24%_Ini in Amsterdam 1539,6 Hz with ERP0.4w + inv-L (3) 21:07 136 G3XDV de PA0RDT Op32 *266* km -16 dB F:11% in Middelburg 1538,3 Hz (2) *WSPR15:* TX-1 RX-4 *WSPR2 >500km:* TX-4 RX-12 *OP32:* TX-2 RX-10 RXds-5 (n) - it's the total number of the reports - it's the best result of the reports - it's the first result over time with the same levels EsLoop + 200W Output 73! Alex R7NT 136.73.ru --001a113ce70e23576305512488b2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
June 3-4 Best QRB/reports WSPR15 /=C2=A0WSPR2 >500km=C2=A0/=C2= =A0=C2=A0OP32=C2= =A0/=C2=A0OPds32=C2=A0:
2017-06-04 = 08:44 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 WH2XND =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.137527 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 -28 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DM33xt =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1= 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 KL7L =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 BP51ip =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A04059=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 331 (1)
2017-06-04 08:00 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 WH2XN= D =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.137527 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DM33xt =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 10 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 WA3TTS/2= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 EN90xn =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A02915=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 66 (82)
01:18=C2=A0 =C2=A0 136 R7NT de G3XDV Op32=C2=A02835= =C2=A0km -35 dB F:7% in Welwyn, IO91vt 1542.2 Hz with 200w + EsLoop (1)
00:18=C2=A0 =C2=A0 136 R7NT = de PA0RDT Op32=C2=A02574=C2=A0km -37 dB F:3% in Middelburg= 1541,1 Hz with 200w + EsLoop (2)
21:18=C2=A0 =C2=A0 136 R7NT de PA7EY Op32 Deep Search=C2=A02491=C2=A0km -45 dB in Amsterdam 1542,5 Hz with 200w + EsLoop (1)=
22:18=C2=A0 =C2=A0 136 R= 7NT de DL6II Op32 -36 dB F:45% in JO30NX (2335=C2=A0km) nr= Cologne + PA0RDT 137540.7 Hz (2)
2017-06-03 23:36 G3XDV=C2=A0 =C2=A02266km 1375= 37.881Hz=C2=A0 =C2=A04mHz -44.4dBOp 100% 18.7dB SV8RV (1)
23:37=C2=A0 =C2=A0 136 G3XDV de SV8RV-10= Op32 Deep Search=C2=A02265=C2=A0km -39 dB in Zakynthos(Za= nte) isl. GREECE 1538,1 Hz with ERP0.4w + inv-L (1)
2017-06-04 01:18 R7NT=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A02234km 137540.924Hz=C2=A0 =C2=A02mHz -42.3dBOp=C2=A0 93% 19.0dB= DK7FC (3)
2017-06-04 01= :14 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IK1HSS =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.137460 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 -23 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 JN35tb =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0= .05 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 OH2EAT =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 KP20xw =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A02134=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 28 (10)
2017-06-03 23:18 R7NT=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2= =A02060km 137540.919Hz=C2=A0 =C2=A04mHz -41.1dBOp 100% 20.= 2dB DF6NM (5)
23:37=C2=A0= =C2=A0 136 G3XDV de EW6X Op32 -36 dB F:45% in KO45kl (1944=C2=A0km) Polotsk + miniwhip 137538.1 Hz (1)
2017-06-04 00:20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2E0ILY =C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 0.137550 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -27 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 IO82qv =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.2 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 OH2EAT =C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 KP20xw =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A01930=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 51 (2)
2017-= 06-03 22:18 R7NT=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A01876km 137540.926Hz=C2= =A0 =C2=A04mHz -38.5dBOp=C2=A0 85% 20.3dB IZ7SLZ (6)

2017-06-03 23:30 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 R7NT =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.1376= 02 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -33 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 KN97lf = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 200 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 SV8RV =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 KM07ks = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A01811= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 241 (5)
2017-06-03 = 23:30 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 R7NT =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.137419 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 -23 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 KN97lf =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2= 00 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 SV8RV-10 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 KM07ks =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A01811=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 241 (6)
2017-06= -03 23:18 R7NT=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A01811km 137540.815Hz 124mH= z -38.5dBOp 100% 20.1dB SV8RV (7)
00:18=C2=A0 =C2=A0 136 R7NT de SV8RV-10 Op32=C2=A01809=C2=A0km -32 dB F:13% in Zakynthos(Zante) isl. GREECE 1541,1 Hz with 2= 00w + EsLoop (6)
2017-= 06-03 23:36 G3XDV=C2=A0 =C2=A01796km 137538.042Hz=C2=A0 = =C2=A03mHz -38.3dBOp=C2=A0 78% 21.1dB IZ7SLZ (2)
2017-06-03 20:30 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 R7NT =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.137602 = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -31 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 KN97lf =C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 200 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 OH2EAT =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 KP20xw =C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A01737=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 336 (4)
2017-06-04 11:20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 WH2XND =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.13752= 7 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +4 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DM33xt =C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 10 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 W7IUV =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DN07dg =C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A01629=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 339 (266= )
21:18=C2=A0 =C2=A0 136 = R7NT de RA1ADF Op32 -35 dB F:49% in KO59HU (1505=C2=A0km) = S.-Petersburg + T h -10m 137542.0 Hz (3)
23:37=C2=A0 =C2=A0 136 G3XDV de EA5DOM-1 Op32 Deep Search= =C2=A01472=C2=A0km -40 dB in Albir 1538,3 Hz with ERP0.4w = + inv-L (1)
23:18=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 136 R7NT de UA4WPF Op32=C2=A01445=C2=A0km -30 dB F:= 18% in Izhevsk
2017-06-03 20:30 =C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 R7NT =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.137602 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -30 =C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 KN97lf =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 200 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 EW6X =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 KO45kl =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A01152=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 327 (3)23:18=C2=A0 =C2=A0 136 R7NT de EW6= X Op32 -38 dB F:47% in KO45kl (1151=C2=A0km) Polotsk + min= iwhip 137541.1 Hz (1)
= 2017-06-03 20:18 R7NT=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A01045km 137540.959H= z=C2=A0 97mHz -30.8dBOp=C2=A0 62% 20.5dB YO/4X1RF (11)
2017-06-04 03:40 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2E0ILY = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.137550 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -24 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IO82qv =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.2 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DF4UE =C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 JN48rr =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0965=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 114 (9)
20:18=C2=A0 =C2=A0 136 R7NT de RA3TGZ Op32=C2=A0908=C2= =A0km -35 dB F:3%_Ini in Sarov 1541,2 Hz with 200w + EsLoop (1)
2017-06-04 04:26 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= M0DSZ =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.137533 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -23 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 -1 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IO82ls =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.1 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = DK7FC =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 JN49ik =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0899=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 110 (8 )
2017-06-04 07:00 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2E0ILY =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.= 137550 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -11 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IO82q= v =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.2 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DK7FC =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 JN49ik= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0878=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 111 (= 24)
2017-06-03 23:36 G= 3XDV=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0843km 137538.041Hz=C2=A0 =C2=A02mHz= -30.5dBOp=C2=A0 78% 21.1dB DF6NM (3)
2017-06-04 00:54 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IK1HSS =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= 0.137463 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -21 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 JN= 35tb =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.05 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 PA7EY =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 JO= 22jj =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0841=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3= 47 (22)
2017-06-04 03:5= 2 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 WH2XND =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.137527 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = -8 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DM33xt =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 10 =C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 KU7Z =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DN41af =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0825
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 (4)
2017-06-04 02:16 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IK1HSS =C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 0.137460 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -23 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 JN35tb =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.05 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 PI4THT =C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 JO32kf =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0799=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 356 (4)
201= 7-06-04 04:26 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 M0DSZ =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.137533 =C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 -16 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IO82ls =C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 0.1 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DL6II =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 JO30nx =C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0725=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 102 (26)=
2017-06-04 04:20 =C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 2E0ILY =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.137550 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -4 =C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IO82qv =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.2 =C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 DL6II =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 JO30nx =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0701<= /strong>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 104 (24)
2017-06-04 00:54 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IK1HSS =C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 0.137461 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -24 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 JN35tb =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.05 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DF2JP =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 JO31hh =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0699=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 354 (18)
2017-0= 6-03 23:36 G3XDV=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0682km 137538.043Hz=C2= =A0 =C2=A03mHz -31.1dBOp=C2=A0 93% 21.7dB DK7FC (3)
2017-06-04 05:14 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 M0DSZ =C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.137534 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -18 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 IO82ls =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.1 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DF2JP =C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 JO31hh =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0680=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 100 (16)
2017-06-04 04:26 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 M0DSZ =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.137533 =C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IO82ls =C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 0.1 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 PI4THT =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 JO32kf =C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0673=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 91 (11)

2017-06-04 01:58 =C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 IK1HSS =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.137461 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -18 =C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 JN35tb =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.05 =C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 DL6II =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 JO30nx =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A06= 59=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 357 (37)
2017-06-04 04:00 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2E0ILY =C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 0.137550 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -5 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 IO82qv =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.2 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DF2JP =C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 JO31hh =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0655=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 102 (24)
<= span class=3D"gmail-bbc_color" style=3D"font-size:12.48px;color:blue">2017-= 06-04 02:00 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2E0ILY =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.137550 =C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 -26 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IO82qv =C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 0.2 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 PA0MBO =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 JO32ke =C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0647=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 93 (1)
2017-06-04 04:00 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= 2E0ILY =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.137550 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -11 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IO82qv =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.2 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 P= I4THT =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 JO32kf =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0646=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 93 (23)
2017-06-04 05:40 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 M0DSZ =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.13= 7535 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -15 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IO82ls = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.1 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 PA7EY =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 JO22jj = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0531=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 91 (26= )
23:37=C2=A0 =C2=A0 136 = G3XDV de DL6II Op32 -36 dB F:47% in JO30NX (516=C2=A0km) n= r Cologne + PA0RDT 137538.5 Hz (1)
2017-06-04 05:40 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2E0ILY =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.= 137552 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -1 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IO82qv= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0.2 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 PA7EY =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 JO22jj = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0503=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 93 (21= )
23:37=C2=A0 =C2=A0 136 = G3XDV de PA7EY Op32=C2=A0347=C2=A0km -19 dB F:24%_Ini in A= msterdam 1539,6 Hz with ERP0.4w + inv-L (3)
21:07=C2=A0 =C2=A0 136 G3XDV de PA0RDT Op32=C2=A0266
=C2=A0km -16 dB F:11% in Middelburg 1538,3 Hz (2)
WSPR15:=C2=A0 TX-1=C2=A0 RX-4
WSPR2 >500km:=C2=A0TX-4 RX-12
OP32:=C2=A0 TX-2 RX-1= 0=C2=A0RXds-= 5
(n) - it'= s the total number of the reports - it's the best result of the reports= - it's the first result over time with the same levels
EsLoop + 200W Output
73! Alex R7NT =C2=A0136.= 73.ru
--001a113ce70e23576305512488b2-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jun 4 18:24:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v54GOmA7022361 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 18:24:50 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHYGt-0006i8-JB for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:20:55 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHYGt-0006hz-4O for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:20:55 +0100 Received: from smtp1web.tin.it ([212.216.176.195]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHYGp-0000Ia-Rl for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:20:53 +0100 Received: from feu5 (10.192.64.15) by smtp1web.tin.it (8.6.060.43) id 58893FFA0293CCA7 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 18:20:50 +0200 Received: from (80.182.160.35) by wmlighttin.pc.tim.it; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 17:47:39 +0200 Message-ID: <15c73ca5749.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 17:47:39 +0200 (CEST) From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 80.182.160.35 X-Scan-Signature: 66d07794ca19cd68f7d6cc289cd4ac18 Subject: R: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lipkowski.org id v54GOmA7022361 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11886 heyheyhey.. now I'm testing with the new coil still at 50Vdc ;-) ops I was forgetting: without dissipator :-)) just with the mounting alu block it runs at room temp, maybe it is worth later at full power! The picture of Andy is not in thema: is the consequence of qro ampli on undersize external loading coil :-) By the way when this ampli will finally run on the antenna I need to re- size the variometer because it warms already with 250W.. Also the new tank coil with 2,5mm² wire after 1 hour has a bit of fever.. but is not warm as the former. Just a quick question Andy: speaking of the guard circuit, if I read Iguard whithout mismatch is correct the assumption that the link has too many turns? Alan: I'm vintage.. and I'm sure I have a variac in the basement :-) thanks for the hint ;-) Thanks all for the psycological and praxi help !! Marco ----Messaggio originale---- Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com Data: 4-giu-2017 17.49 A: Ogg: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Something like this ... http://www.g4jnt.com/QRO_LF_DoesThis.JPG 'jnt :-) On 4 June 2017 at 16:25, Chris Wilson wrote: > Hello Alan, > > > No, what he needs is a video camera, and the courage to post the > result here for scrutiny, we need a bit of fun now and again ;) > > Good luck Marco, what's the worst that can happen.... :) > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jun 4 18:46:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v54Gk2bU022482 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 18:46:03 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHYbn-0006s7-JV for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:42:31 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHYbn-0006ry-7N for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:42:31 +0100 Received: from mail-lf0-x235.google.com ([2a00:1450:4010:c07::235]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHYbj-0000Mr-8e for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:42:30 +0100 Received: by mail-lf0-x235.google.com with SMTP id o83so13499663lff.3 for ; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 09:42:26 -0700 (PDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=82AzHhmxxABQJ9AUKLjzEbz1fXIBGzV3xGypvXQXzIE=; b=lr+CVDwUjH13bpPgKlLhgQcEdeBzFGZoaqLXMQOS8OQz/fyuXz+2k1SO3nvhJVB+We 9xFCOUBLHqdpfOBP4m1GtR4wu8zpx1wEFP9lKL66s8gGe4NboXf2m2nbMVlgYU0aB3/U 9YLBfbHu2VYtC5mvevP9h+Lli9XsmsJ7M6WGCOM5psV5KXtReKVsIravEtxZqQNERp/e JwGtsqmr7WmBsN1gJ3JP8D5n0HVUIaguVoagWhmnetIwdRKEg6uQJIwTbu3GAr+UqeYN Q/G68QDKSK5Ew7IU8nsw34YtS6bzZ0ZDvKwkOmPNr+ZOSYJojqVc9qO7tVgx9XZuEfKE 6Pxw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=82AzHhmxxABQJ9AUKLjzEbz1fXIBGzV3xGypvXQXzIE=; b=uCUgoBhkPrhH2QHYx3l+qs5aFsR4sxO4ZmJl5A2qOPX9CbjyzKYQnBp10aWp8cUjBy 3HZ+7kQTnoQ7LAPU7kpClUFT8WS4VtC5OZL/XLRyDx/OD/2/irCGd6R8N0YQNUWtAN5z FUjYLXcjXkYpnDedVwPi7hqD/9f4PogUAaET1BdkxG7JI+NkRvGQoxbfFMyW4NBFjF3F 4JA84WWsRKdtO8GAps+JyL2qAfw7X3SvAWmpfqC2LHtK6kmLJeCLK3ym2OnCLIa2FFy5 NBY0CMXDc5mjJrP758gi8cdSrPjU9c6VASObo/EQPGdtJJT6arUPmaOKOiELQ/MCe8Qz YHmA== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcC3/H6b+NlJxn2i6V+iYcUk71ZwkChvwQkOnNxJhAfsOGRbf/AB Djn4kcPa4c1PFkLaqK2cPwVactEf6A== X-Received: by 10.25.198.211 with SMTP id w202mr4189385lff.28.1496594545345; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 09:42:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.156.13 with HTTP; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 09:42:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <15c73ca5749.marcocadeddu@tin.it> References: <15c73ca5749.marcocadeddu@tin.it> From: Andy Talbot Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 17:42:24 +0100 Message-ID: To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Scan-Signature: 54f9a9b24d9d5f31a632377c3b90b222 Subject: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1a08f23f8adf05512512c4" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11887 --94eb2c1a08f23f8adf05512512c4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes. You need to adjust the link so current is driven back into the supply when RF amps exceed the maximum that you have designed for. Up to that point there should be no guard current as the induced voltage in the link, when rectified , is less than the supply. If the link coupling were to be perfect, ie it behaved as a transformer, then at full power into your designed load the voltage across the tank coil would be Q * Vdc * 4/pi * SQRT(2) (since you calculated Rload this way). The SQRT terms comes from the DC being the peak So the turns ratio (for perfect coupling) if made equal equal to 1 : Q * 4 / pi * SQRT(2) ,will start to generate load current just as maximum output is reached. But things aren't perfect; the mutual coupling is never 1 in an air wound coil (mine is about 0.6), the rectification doesn't give exactly peak volts, so you have to experiment, changing the link turns until you get the limiting you want. Fortunately it scales with DC volts, so guard circuit testing can be done at low supply / power out. 'jnt On 4 June 2017 at 16:47, marcocadeddu@tin.it wrote: > heyheyhey.. > now I'm testing with the new coil still at 50Vdc ;-) > ops I was forgetting: without dissipator :-)) just with the mounting > alu block it runs at room temp, maybe it is worth later at full power! > The > picture of Andy is not in thema: is the consequence of qro ampli on > undersize external loading coil :-) > By the way when this ampli will finally run on the antenna I need to re- > size the variometer because it warms already with 250W.. > > Also the new tank coil with 2,5mm=C2=B2 wire after 1 hour has a bit of > fever.. but is not warm as the former. > > Just a quick question Andy: speaking of the guard circuit, if I read > Iguard whithout mismatch is correct the assumption that the link has > too many turns? > > Alan: I'm vintage.. and I'm sure I have a variac in the basement :-) > thanks for the hint ;-) > > Thanks all for the psycological and praxi help !! > Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > Data: 4-giu-2017 17.49 > A: > Ogg: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Something like this ... > http://www.g4jnt.com/QRO_LF_DoesThis.JPG > 'jnt :-) > > > On 4 June 2017 at 16:25, Chris Wilson wrote: > > > Hello Alan, > > > > > > No, what he needs is a video camera, and the courage to post the > > result here for scrutiny, we need a bit of fun now and again ;) > > > > Good luck Marco, what's the worst that can happen.... :) > > > > > > > > > --94eb2c1a08f23f8adf05512512c4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes.
You need to adjust the link so current is driven = back into the supply when RF amps exceed the maximum that you have designed= for. =C2=A0 Up to that point there should be no guard current as the induc= ed voltage in the link, when rectified , is less than the supply.

<= /div>
If the link coupling were to be perfect, ie it behaved as a trans= former, then at full power into your designed load the voltage across the t= ank coil would be Q * Vdc * 4/pi =C2=A0* SQRT(2) =C2=A0 =C2=A0(since you ca= lculated Rload this way). =C2=A0 =C2=A0The SQRT terms comes from the DC bei= ng the peak

So the turns ratio (for perfect coupli= ng) if made equal equal to 1 : Q * 4 / pi * SQRT(2) ,will start to generate= load current just as maximum output is reached.=C2=A0

=
But things aren't perfect; the mutual coupling is never 1 in an ai= r wound coil (mine is about 0.6), the rectification doesn't =C2=A0 give= exactly peak volts, so you have to experiment, changing the link turns unt= il you get the limiting you want. =C2=A0 Fortunately it scales with DC volt= s, so guard circuit testing can be done at low supply / power out.

'jnt

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 4 June 2017 at 16:47, marcocadeddu@tin.it <marcocadeddu@tin.it> wrote:
heyheyhey..
now I'm testing with the new coil still at 50Vdc ;-)
ops I was forgetting: without dissipator :-)) just with the mounting
alu block it runs at room temp, maybe it is worth later at full power!
The
picture of Andy is not in thema: is the consequence of qro ampli on
undersize external loading coil :-)
By the way when this ampli will finally run on the antenna I need to re- size the variometer because it warms already with 250W..

Also the new tank coil with 2,5mm=C2=B2 wire after 1 hour has a bit of
fever.. but is not warm as the former.

Just a quick question Andy: speaking of the guard circuit, if I read
Iguard whithout mismatch is correct the assumption that the link has
too many turns?

Alan: I'm vintage.. and I'm sure I have a variac in the basement :-= )
thanks for the hint ;-)

Thanks all for the psycological and praxi help !!
Marco

----Messaggio originale----
Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com
Data: 4-giu-2017 17.49
A: <rsgb_lf_group@blacks= heep.org>
Ogg: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived...

Something like this ...
http://www.g4jnt.com/QRO_LF_DoesThis.JPG
'jnt :-)


On 4 June 2017 at 16:25, Chris Wilson <dead.fets@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Alan,
>
>
> No, what he needs is a video camera, and the courage to post the
> result here for scrutiny, we need a bit of fun now and again ;)
>
> Good luck Marco, what's the worst that can happen.... :)
>
>





--94eb2c1a08f23f8adf05512512c4-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jun 4 19:48:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=3 Fuz1=3 Fuz2=3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v54HlwxK022699 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 19:47:59 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHZVU-0007Bk-Re for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 18:40:04 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHZVU-0007Bb-Bd for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 18:40:04 +0100 Received: from smtp3web.tin.it ([212.216.176.237]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHZVQ-0000YC-9j for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 18:40:03 +0100 Received: from feu4 (10.192.64.14) by smtp3web.tin.it (8.6.060.43) id 583FEE8C03265D23; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 19:39:58 +0200 Received: from (80.182.160.35) by wmlighttin.pc.tim.it; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 19:39:58 +0200 Message-ID: <15c74312b98.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 19:39:58 +0200 (CEST) From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 80.182.160.35 X-Scan-Signature: 7c7a1907d3a7d57b28660e5fb4c32107 Subject: R: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lipkowski.org id v54HlwxK022699 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11888 Thank you Andy :-) now by the first I have to find a way to fix the coil (which is quite bulky..) I used 2 corks :-)) and hotmelt glue, but after 1 hour of testing the coil falled :-((( looking on the notes, the first tank coil had 92T and the link had 25T with this combination the voltage across the link coupling was about Vpp = Vdc but in this conditions, this afternoon when testing at 50Vdc without the guard circuit I had Idd 0,87A and Wout 29,5 connecting the guard Idd dropped to 0,41A and Wout to 13,2W while Ig=0,16A. On the other hand with 25 ohm load, Idd was 0,31A and Wout 8,4W with Ig 0,26A. So let me borrow another cork :-))) Thank you again for support CU Marco IK1HSS ----Messaggio originale---- Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com Data: 4-giu-2017 18.42 A: Ogg: Re: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Yes. You need to adjust the link so current is driven back into the supply when RF amps exceed the maximum that you have designed for. Up to that point there should be no guard current as the induced voltage in the link, when rectified , is less than the supply. If the link coupling were to be perfect, ie it behaved as a transformer, then at full power into your designed load the voltage across the tank coil would be Q * Vdc * 4/pi * SQRT(2) (since you calculated Rload this way). The SQRT terms comes from the DC being the peak So the turns ratio (for perfect coupling) if made equal equal to 1 : Q * 4 / pi * SQRT(2) ,will start to generate load current just as maximum output is reached. But things aren't perfect; the mutual coupling is never 1 in an air wound coil (mine is about 0.6), the rectification doesn't give exactly peak volts, so you have to experiment, changing the link turns until you get the limiting you want. Fortunately it scales with DC volts, so guard circuit testing can be done at low supply / power out. 'jnt On 4 June 2017 at 16:47, marcocadeddu@tin.it wrote: > heyheyhey.. > now I'm testing with the new coil still at 50Vdc ;-) > ops I was forgetting: without dissipator :-)) just with the mounting > alu block it runs at room temp, maybe it is worth later at full power! > The > picture of Andy is not in thema: is the consequence of qro ampli on > undersize external loading coil :-) > By the way when this ampli will finally run on the antenna I need to re- > size the variometer because it warms already with 250W.. > > Also the new tank coil with 2,5mm² wire after 1 hour has a bit of > fever.. but is not warm as the former. > > Just a quick question Andy: speaking of the guard circuit, if I read > Iguard whithout mismatch is correct the assumption that the link has > too many turns? > > Alan: I'm vintage.. and I'm sure I have a variac in the basement :-) > thanks for the hint ;-) > > Thanks all for the psycological and praxi help !! > Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com > Data: 4-giu-2017 17.49 > A: > Ogg: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Something like this ... > http://www.g4jnt.com/QRO_LF_DoesThis.JPG> 'jnt :-) > > > On 4 June 2017 at 16:25, Chris Wilson wrote: > > > Hello Alan, > > > > > > No, what he needs is a video camera, and the courage to post the > > result here for scrutiny, we need a bit of fun now and again ;) > > > > Good luck Marco, what's the worst that can happen.... :) > > > > > > > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jun 4 21:23:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v54JMwQF023050 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 21:22:59 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHb2U-0007sR-La for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 20:18:14 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHb2A-0007sI-JL for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 20:17:54 +0100 Received: from rgout0707.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk ([65.20.0.147]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHb27-0000pm-Dt for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 20:17:53 +0100 X-OWM-Source-IP: 109.146.90.196 (GB) X-OWM-Env-Sender: alan.melia@btinternet.com X-Junkmail-Premium-Raw: score=8/50,refid=2.7.2:2017.6.2.100316:17:8.707,ip=,rules=NO_URI_FOUND, NO_CTA_URI_FOUND, NO_MESSAGE_ID, NO_URI_HTTPS, TO_MALFORMED Received: from gnat (109.146.90.196) by rgout07.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk (9.0.019.13-1) (authenticated as alan.melia@btinternet.com) id 58BFF27E09C1F42A for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 20:17:49 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=btcpcloud; t=1496603871; bh=hwl2hOmUxGB4BMKKNPJ9ufMqPrBt0T1PDQpFe+HIt6M=; h=Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:X-Mailer; b=nhEEdPYt5Chqv5np+5c/hW37EdQfYmHTODbZ3Y/fgH4I5vRlRPgpTQiYZNAZ5ywgQQKL1Vka5K6OkPuXc/tulmjlhY657tYx8rvVnA8DrNU07h4mt0lU/p3Gdrj7uYmaaKllrrOokjqqdaZq/10DXDgMVSafp5c6iE1PW0BXAdA= Message-ID: <300B2DF54E5E4639AC0511EF3EEC0BA4@gnat> From: "Alan Melia" To: References: <5cc15148-f9de-0cf5-35d0-9ed9d28adfa7@execulink.com> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 20:17:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Scan-Signature: 79aab7440207271f32757adc503f8c76 Subject: LF: Re: How do I unsubscribe from this list? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0054_01D2DD6F.9F2C3AB0" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11891 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01D2DD6F.9F2C3AB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Terry Send a message addressed to majordomo@blacksheep.org put something in = the subject though it is ignored. NB use text NOT HTML or RichText for = the body of the message. Then on the first line in column 1 (no leading = spaces or tabs) ... unsubscribe rsgb_lf_group end The "end" is to ensure the parser knows the command is finished because = a lot of ISPs add tails to messages these days and many senders use = "signtures" which also confuse the old text parser Best Wishes Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Terry Maurice=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2017 7:53 PM Subject: LF: How do I unsubscribe from this list? How do I get my email address off this list? Thanks Terry=20 --=20 VE3XTM EN93un=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01D2DD6F.9F2C3AB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Hi Terry
Send a message addressed to majordomo@blacksheep.org&nbs= p; put=20 something in the subject though it is ignored. NB use text NOT HTML or = RichText=20 for the body of the message. Then on the first line in column 1 (no = leading=20 spaces or tabs) ...
 
unsubscribe rsgb_lf_group
end
 
The "end" is to ensure the parser knows = the command=20 is finished because a lot of ISPs add tails to messages these days and = many=20 senders use "signtures" which also confuse the old text = parser
 
Best Wishes
Alan G3NYK
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Terry=20 Maurice
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2017 = 7:53 PM
Subject: LF: How do I = unsubscribe from=20 this list?

How do I get my email address off this=20 list?

Thanks

Terry=20
--
VE3XTM EN93un
------=_NextPart_000_0054_01D2DD6F.9F2C3AB0-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jun 4 23:53:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v54Lr743023544 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 23:53:08 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHdOC-00007x-0O for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 22:48:48 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHdOB-00007o-KB for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 22:48:47 +0100 Received: from smtp2.execulink.net ([69.63.44.83]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHdO8-0001Eo-EC for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 22:48:46 +0100 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=execulink.com Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=execulink.com; s=execulink1; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject; bh=3CVWu+ivboPKPYWdVL7KcyhEkObZhWLNfuB+GzdiSj0=; b=FS83Yaq31En6DUIR/A9/rF+ALKgj3A5a1QGlldzG9XvvnxZj/g7gaeheZX6yj3DLAtCzwJGXkRse2kgYjSsLZkVR+7h4oB4Tgu1jNutNisAl5Oadh415YAyUsqZCzGRmRkydTGrWZ1KjQ7IDMe60Je4H1q/j74Zh9Z0eeAyhbke8u7Hg6nlbmelalde4IJRlmwZTrNANx7LyrF8In7f8g8am7QMmoPfd3HoGt+sFC6jMpdseSnfXN3Z8aDaoqfnNin+1wGo+pom+dsX3KNXTqRD1B6s0S/eRRIzf98benC4lJ6CLynexp1Zx3bKi3v41bUXDweNTp1IrHhQkyPgLjA==; Received: from node-8588.tor.pppoe.execulink.com ([69.63.49.143] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by smtp2.execulink.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1dHdO6-0002Co-32 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:48:42 -0400 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5cc15148-f9de-0cf5-35d0-9ed9d28adfa7@execulink.com> <300B2DF54E5E4639AC0511EF3EEC0BA4@gnat> From: Terry Maurice Message-ID: <558a030c-7b84-12b7-119e-6696a3a6c288@execulink.com> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 17:52:41 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <300B2DF54E5E4639AC0511EF3EEC0BA4@gnat> Content-Language: en-US X-PMX-Versions: AntiSpam="2.7.2--2015.5.1.61215" AntiVirus="3.60.0--5.14--9085223" X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIIII, Probability=8%, SubjectGauge=, Report='HTML_NO_HTTP 0.1, HTML_50_70 0.1, DATE_TZ_NA 0, SPF_NONE 0, BODY_SIZE_4000_4999 0, BODYTEXTP_SIZE_3000_LESS 0, BODYTEXTH_SIZE_10000_LESS 0, SXL_IP_DYNAMIC **, BODY_SIZE_5000_LESS 0, RDNS_DIALUP 0, RDNS_POOLED 0, RDNS_SUSP_SPECIFIC **, RDNS_SUSP **, BODY_SIZE_7000_LESS 0, REFERENCES 0, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ 0, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT 0, __TO_MALFORMED_2 0, __TO_NO_NAME 0, __REFERENCES 0, __HAS_FROM 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __USER_AGENT 0, __MOZILLA_USER_AGENT 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __IN_REP_TO 0, __CT 0, __CTYPE_MULTIPART_ALT 0, __CTYPE_HAS_BOUNDARY 0, __CTYPE_MULTIPART 0, __BAT_BOUNDARY 0, __ANY_URI 0, __URI_NO_WWW 0, __URI_NO_PATH 0, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE 0, __FORWARDED_MSG 0, __HAS_HTML 0, __MIME_HTML 0, __TAG_EXISTS_HTML 0, __RDNS_POOLED_10 0, __RDNS_DIALUP_2 0, __URI_NS 0, _69.63.49.143 **' X-Scan-Signature: 982d53dbb4bb82e9ed4f38562b2a1556 Subject: Re: LF: Re: How do I unsubscribe from this list? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------796D59FC89E096FF01FAE66A" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11892 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------796D59FC89E096FF01FAE66A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks! On 04/06/2017 15:17, Alan Melia wrote: > Hi Terry > Send a message addressed to majordomo@blacksheep.org > put something in the subject though > it is ignored. NB use text NOT HTML or RichText for the body of the > message. Then on the first line in column 1 (no leading spaces or > tabs) ... > unsubscribe rsgb_lf_group > end > The "end" is to ensure the parser knows the command is finished > because a lot of ISPs add tails to messages these days and many > senders use "signtures" which also confuse the old text parser > Best Wishes > Alan G3NYK > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Terry Maurice > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > > *Sent:* Sunday, June 04, 2017 7:53 PM > *Subject:* LF: How do I unsubscribe from this list? > > How do I get my email address off this list? > > Thanks > > Terry > -- > *VE3XTM* EN93un > -- *VE3XTM* EN93un --------------796D59FC89E096FF01FAE66A Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks!

On 04/06/2017 15:17, Alan Melia wrote:
Hi Terry
Send a message addressed to majordomo@blacksheep.org  put something in the subject though it is ignored. NB use text NOT HTML or RichText for the body of the message. Then on the first line in column 1 (no leading spaces or tabs) ...
 
unsubscribe rsgb_lf_group
end
 
The "end" is to ensure the parser knows the command is finished because a lot of ISPs add tails to messages these days and many senders use "signtures" which also confuse the old text parser
 
Best Wishes
Alan G3NYK
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2017 7:53 PM
Subject: LF: How do I unsubscribe from this list?

How do I get my email address off this list?

Thanks

Terry
--
VE3XTM EN93un


--
VE3XTM EN93un

--------------796D59FC89E096FF01FAE66A-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Mon Jun 5 07:26:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v555Pq3S025388 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 07:25:53 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHkMS-00027K-N1 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 06:15:28 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHkMR-00027B-RW for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 06:15:27 +0100 Received: from resqmta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net ([2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:44]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHkMM-0002A6-Rj for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 06:15:26 +0100 Received: from resomta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.107]) by resqmta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id HkM3d8EsTdlFQHkMHderZ0; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 05:15:17 +0000 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=comcast.net Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20161114; t=1496639717; bh=Y9l3sw7DM59lkZqZnf1MFt39uMU9Vr5x2dVUNH5Ewzs=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=ZK2WxlVKfMJlHNYSGu/CV8l4IuC02mvevxyK8qz6twf/anassCPlRP930DNt/RWc9 ALQprB8OlMquO/zXpnXvru8opvSB6KAtnY49FkeBi2IoSD4dq8QOuHEMROjTNeqxCl KkmR984TjCwOP59mX2qZRyAsTXLabfVK+5DtzJvFWUyjHIo8Xt4kBzprLFoYnImt1S huixsMyJREawN/L2eeigN4zlX3ObDp9DsDYXj8jh7b4tIU+q7lt7ux/pHMEALPcPqb pbmhuLTZf9VozV7bfMA/wnjKDZuIEMcYdSg/tSDeDcN5LwSx40knMlMXCRzMINHWDw RN/CBYEy8JDqg== Received: from Owner ([IPv6:2601:140:8500:7f9f:ec2c:3522:b433:4166]) by resomta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id HkMFdw8RjHHARHkMGd29y0; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 05:15:17 +0000 From: To: References: <07558728-336b-cb7c-bc04-4d7718f5b97c@df3lp.de> <1960259.EQv1FmN41F@x220> In-Reply-To: <1960259.EQv1FmN41F@x220> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 01:15:14 -0400 Message-ID: <036a01d2ddba$b7b3b8b0$271b2a10$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJG7D3e+r5e3mKohe8NQhCsSzouGgEI4nx+oSVG4SA= Content-Language: en-us X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfBjbtbvIID8Ho9aQzSTaKHpMtKGP0p14mLEpnR7nYfrtrjfT+vFizr2IbAuG2Y4gxKv1gFFI51OHtbff8ySsOHXGjeBwteuxXTOzTZKHSNnHk9L3AOLy zQ4VYT6dPEbU5IXiewqZQ7DuNtBR8G2buiw= X-Scan-Signature: 29168ad3cbe6e84866aad11301f49cdd Subject: RE: LF: VLF Transmissions from Spacecraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_036B_01D2DD99.30A489B0" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11893 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_036B_01D2DD99.30A489B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unofficial r/SpaceX page https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/wiki/launches/manifest now shows December 2017; last update to the manifest was May 8; looks dependent on F9 Heavy demo launch scheduled for summer. Many delays since 2008 (for DSX) due to low priority and special (9000km/6000km elliptical retrograde) orbit. Some web references show operational life as 6 months with goal of 12 months (radiation as one possible limit). >From link below (in prior messages): Cross-dipole antenna is 80m tip-to-tip (Y) and 16m tip-to-tip (Z): X,Y for receive; Y for transmit Two TX modes: whistler (3-50 kHz, 500-900W) and boomerang (50-750 kHz, 1 W)]; real-time tuning/matching Dipole receiver sensitivity: 0.01uV/rt-Hz RX Separate 3-axis-loop receiver sensitivity: 3fT/rt-Hz Guessing 500W is specified at the battery. Jim AA5BW From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Claudio Pozzi Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 5:23 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: VLF Transmissions from Spacecraft On Thursday 18 May 2017 19:45:51 you wrote: > FYI: > > The "DSX" satellite will carry a 0.5-0.9 kw, 3 to 50 kHz (pulsed?) VLF > transmitter. > > Citation from: www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a531813.pdf : > > "...and a two week high-power VLF transmission campaign will occur near the > end of the mission." End of life is planned at 12 months after launch and > "Early Operations". > > As far as I understand the tx-antenna will be a 2x40m dipole. > > Launch is scheduled for 2017-xx-xx (Falcon Heavy launch vehicle). > > 73 de df3lp, > Peter Interesting mission. https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/d/dsx Here some details about the spacecraft transmission. http://smartech.gatech.edu/bitstream/1853/8037/2/SSEC_SD1_doc.pdf TNX Claudio ik2pii ---- ZE-Light e ZE-Pro: servizi zimbra per caselle con dominio email.it, per tutti i dettagli clicca qui Sponsor: Caselle con tuo dominio su piattaforma Zimbra, fino a 30 GB di spazio, sincronizzazione dati e backup Clicca qui ------=_NextPart_000_036B_01D2DD99.30A489B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Unofficial r/SpaceX page https://w= ww.reddit.com/r/spacex/wiki/launches/manifest now shows December = 2017; last update to the manifest was May 8; looks dependent on F9 Heavy = demo launch scheduled for summer.

 

Many delays since 2008 (for DSX) due to low priority and special = (9000km/6000km elliptical retrograde) orbit.

 

Some web references show operational life as 6 months with goal of 12 = months (radiation as one possible limit).

 

From link below (in prior messages):

Cross-dipole antenna is 80m tip-to-tip (Y) and 16m tip-to-tip (Z): =  X,Y for receive;  Y for transmit

Two TX modes: whistler (3-50 kHz, 500-900W) and boomerang (50-750 = kHz, 1 W)]; real-time tuning/matching

Dipole receiver sensitivity:  0.01uV/rt-Hz RX =

Separate 3-axis-loop receiver sensitivity: 3fT/rt-Hz =

 

Guessing 500W is specified at the battery.

 

Jim AA5BW      

 

From:= = owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Claudio = Pozzi
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 5:23 PM
To: = rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: VLF = Transmissions from Spacecraft

 

On = Thursday 18 May 2017 19:45:51 you wrote:

> FYI:

>

> The "DSX" satellite will carry a 0.5-0.9 = kw, 3 to 50 kHz (pulsed?) VLF

> transmitter.

>

> Citation from: www.dtic.mil= /dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a531813.pdf :

>

> "...and a two week high-power VLF transmission = campaign will occur near the

> end of the mission." End of life is planned at = 12 months after launch and

> "Early = Operations".

>

> As far as I understand the tx-antenna will be a = 2x40m dipole.

>

> Launch is scheduled for 2017-xx-xx (Falcon Heavy = launch vehicle).

>

> 73 de df3lp,

> Peter

 

Interesting mission.

 

https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satel= lite-missions/d/dsx

 

Here some details about the spacecraft = transmission.

 

http://smartech.gatech.edu/bitstream/1853/8037/2/= SSEC_SD1_doc.pdf

 

TNX

 

Claudio ik2pii



----
ZE-= Light e ZE-Pro: servizi zimbra per caselle con dominio email.it, per = tutti i dettagli clicca = qui

Sponsor:
Caselle con tuo dominio su piattaforma = Zimbra, fino a 30 GB di spazio, sincronizzazione dati e backup
Clicca qui

------=_NextPart_000_036B_01D2DD99.30A489B0-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Mon Jun 5 07:32:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v555WeJa025402 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 07:32:41 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHkZ1-0002Dj-Mz for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 06:28:27 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHkZ1-0002Da-3s for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 06:28:27 +0100 Received: from resqmta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net ([2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:43]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHkYw-0002Ec-F8 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 06:28:25 +0100 Received: from resomta-ch2-17v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.113]) by resqmta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id HkYtdpKiTT4XXHkYtdLnf1; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 05:28:19 +0000 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=comcast.net Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20161114; t=1496640499; bh=ZT0vXCV0rwPpgbtbR63mjsy0ohCbUdw/Y+xxUSGqOqw=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=Vc0xvxWdCAkyAnO9TdqK6QIEcVbpckinbLvKu+6UrC01gRwEo5gCTonZQj7o2PSmc huPk0/XeltbM4I7Bhl7uEq6OuUqjkrTiEdEwVyZffnoQRPp/uOgguEI//rglUQ9U96 UY7/AMdyZWEiV2MxI/mrP56sa3Oo+KbkhC4wzxYFc9itFLTpLag8g015jyctIv/PCm bKGtvnwrssT3c1IMezC+RrA2zvnCqVLyb5nGTMwy4ZEBoAkNbSbStqsq1q6zHxFBd2 FvpuLB/L5J1hjRe1/rwsViIRzV94dFuXxs9TtOrP2uUcYJ9Ch5Zhid1k3cGP9yGCm6 XI2DottSp0I+w== Received: from Owner ([IPv6:2601:140:8500:7f9f:ec2c:3522:b433:4166]) by resomta-ch2-17v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id HkYrd4mosbkqIHkYsdKfwp; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 05:28:19 +0000 From: To: References: <07558728-336b-cb7c-bc04-4d7718f5b97c@df3lp.de> <1960259.EQv1FmN41F@x220> In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 01:28:16 -0400 Message-ID: <037701d2ddbc$89dbcfc0$9d936f40$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJG7D3e+r5e3mKohe8NQhCsSzouGgEI4nx+oSVG4SCAABHdYA== Content-Language: en-us X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfCZZaocyiQaXjV3aZuui0fY7z+aB2C17TKjM6barAdJtymEiJiI5GnA9Hf2KPsUJY2Pu5kA8+i7w4wcokI0YKRMWfg72Tdi3GovCelooOa3a+GZ2eGKa 9RT7XqZEzDBX9kBNNQWf0ylPWthv9jRRxm8= X-Scan-Signature: 1071da3933cc71afd2b8c5f341fb2b80 Subject: RE: LF: VLF Transmissions from Spacecraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0378_01D2DD9B.02CA2FC0" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11894 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0378_01D2DD9B.02CA2FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Correction: 12000km/6000km elliptical retrograde orbit Also agree 500W could be pulse ERP From: hvanesce@comcast.net [mailto:hvanesce@comcast.net] Sent: Monday, June 5, 2017 1:15 AM To: 'rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org' Subject: RE: LF: VLF Transmissions from Spacecraft Unofficial r/SpaceX page https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/wiki/launches/manifest now shows December 2017; last update to the manifest was May 8; looks dependent on F9 Heavy demo launch scheduled for summer. Many delays since 2008 (for DSX) due to low priority and special (9000km/6000km elliptical retrograde) orbit. Some web references show operational life as 6 months with goal of 12 months (radiation as one possible limit). >From link below (in prior messages): Cross-dipole antenna is 80m tip-to-tip (Y) and 16m tip-to-tip (Z): X,Y for receive; Y for transmit Two TX modes: whistler (3-50 kHz, 500-900W) and boomerang (50-750 kHz, 1 W)]; real-time tuning/matching Dipole receiver sensitivity: 0.01uV/rt-Hz RX Separate 3-axis-loop receiver sensitivity: 3fT/rt-Hz Guessing 500W is specified at the battery. Jim AA5BW From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Claudio Pozzi Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 5:23 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: VLF Transmissions from Spacecraft On Thursday 18 May 2017 19:45:51 you wrote: > FYI: > > The "DSX" satellite will carry a 0.5-0.9 kw, 3 to 50 kHz (pulsed?) VLF > transmitter. > > Citation from: www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a531813.pdf : > > "...and a two week high-power VLF transmission campaign will occur near the > end of the mission." End of life is planned at 12 months after launch and > "Early Operations". > > As far as I understand the tx-antenna will be a 2x40m dipole. > > Launch is scheduled for 2017-xx-xx (Falcon Heavy launch vehicle). > > 73 de df3lp, > Peter Interesting mission. https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/d/dsx Here some details about the spacecraft transmission. http://smartech.gatech.edu/bitstream/1853/8037/2/SSEC_SD1_doc.pdf TNX Claudio ik2pii ---- ZE-Light e ZE-Pro: servizi zimbra per caselle con dominio email.it, per tutti i dettagli clicca qui Sponsor: Caselle con tuo dominio su piattaforma Zimbra, fino a 30 GB di spazio, sincronizzazione dati e backup Clicca qui ------=_NextPart_000_0378_01D2DD9B.02CA2FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Correction: 12000km/6000km elliptical retrograde orbit

 

Also agree 500W could be pulse ERP

 

 

From:= = hvanesce@comcast.net [mailto:hvanesce@comcast.net]
Sent: = Monday, June 5, 2017 1:15 AM
To: = 'rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org'
Subject: RE: LF: VLF = Transmissions from Spacecraft

 

Unofficial r/SpaceX page https://w= ww.reddit.com/r/spacex/wiki/launches/manifest now shows December = 2017; last update to the manifest was May 8; looks dependent on F9 Heavy = demo launch scheduled for summer.

 

Many delays since 2008 (for DSX) due to low priority and special = (9000km/6000km elliptical retrograde) orbit.

 

Some web references show operational life as 6 months with goal of 12 = months (radiation as one possible limit).

 

From link below (in prior messages):

Cross-dipole antenna is 80m tip-to-tip (Y) and 16m tip-to-tip (Z): =  X,Y for receive;  Y for transmit

Two TX modes: whistler (3-50 kHz, 500-900W) and boomerang (50-750 = kHz, 1 W)]; real-time tuning/matching

Dipole receiver sensitivity:  0.01uV/rt-Hz RX =

Separate 3-axis-loop receiver sensitivity: 3fT/rt-Hz =

 

Guessing 500W is specified at the battery.

 

Jim AA5BW      

 

From:= = owner-rsgb_lf_group@bl= acksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_g= roup@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Claudio = Pozzi
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 5:23 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=
Subject: Re: LF: VLF Transmissions from = Spacecraft

 

On = Thursday 18 May 2017 19:45:51 you wrote:

> FYI:

>

> The "DSX" satellite will carry a 0.5-0.9 = kw, 3 to 50 kHz (pulsed?) VLF

> transmitter.

>

> Citation from: www.dtic.mil= /dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a531813.pdf :

>

> "...and a two week high-power VLF transmission = campaign will occur near the

> end of the mission." End of life is planned at = 12 months after launch and

> "Early = Operations".

>

> As far as I understand the tx-antenna will be a = 2x40m dipole.

>

> Launch is scheduled for 2017-xx-xx (Falcon Heavy = launch vehicle).

>

> 73 de df3lp,

> Peter

 

Interesting mission.

 

https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satel= lite-missions/d/dsx

 

Here some details about the spacecraft = transmission.

 

http://smartech.gatech.edu/bitstream/1853/8037/2/= SSEC_SD1_doc.pdf

 

TNX

 

Claudio ik2pii

 

----
ZE-= Light e ZE-Pro: servizi zimbra per caselle con dominio email.it, per = tutti i dettagli clicca = qui

Sponsor:
Caselle con tuo dominio su piattaforma = Zimbra, fino a 30 GB di spazio, sincronizzazione dati e backup
Clicca qui

------=_NextPart_000_0378_01D2DD9B.02CA2FC0-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Mon Jun 5 11:23:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v559Nnvl026334 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 11:23:50 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHo9P-0003GZ-Qx for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 10:18:15 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHo9O-0003GQ-Ar for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 10:18:14 +0100 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHo9K-00032p-G4 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 10:18:13 +0100 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A81B720CAA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 11:18:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 3wh8P94zHNzysV for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 11:18:05 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <593521CC.9070703@posteo.de> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2017 11:18:04 +0200 From: DK7FC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <15c6e6a8ba3.marcocadeddu@tin.it> In-Reply-To: <15c6e6a8ba3.marcocadeddu@tin.it> X-Scan-Signature: 9e3996b06e6d670e8814874478dd0b45 Subject: Re: R: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11895 Hello Marco, I was unable to write a longer text for a few days (no desktop PC available, just the smartphone and Teamviewer) so my answer is a bit late. You've got a lot of advice since that time. I'm just adding what came to my mind... -I assume you already checked that the supply voltages stay constand in any working point. -The gate voltages are important. Also the duty cycle should be constant and close to 50% for best operation. In my H bridge PA for 137 kHz the gate voltage is +- 8V, quite a rectangular waveform. Unfortunately i have no scope captures quickly available. -Try to lower the 4 Ohm resistor after the IDXX driver. It is there to avoid oscillations after the switching slopes. Maybe 2 Ohm is enough. -Even more important: Make sure the transformer is wound for a minimum stray inductance because this will quickly lead to strong oscillations. Wind all the 3 windings equally spread arround the whole core (ferrite, e.g. N30, AL>2000nH). Wind them trifilar, not separated. If there are still problems show us images of: The gate source voltage, the gate drive transformer. 73, Stefan Am 03.06.2017 16:44, schrieb marcocadeddu@tin.it: > Hi Stefan, > > and thank you :-) so you have too something to mumble while sending > VLF SMS ;-) > There is nothing really new.. I started from an avalable > chassis with on board a PS giving 180Vdc (1200W) and assembled the > Andy's half bridge 700W switching PA and before give it the full power > I'm checking with lower DC supply. Attached you see the schematic with > some change at the moment.. > The output xfmr has 7T/19T, the coil of the guard circuit is not > connected (now is in serie with L2) and the resonating caps now are > 5x1000pF in parallel. > The aim is finally with 180Vdc of supply have an output of 0,5÷1kW > but.... as you probably red in the previous messages, from 10 to 30Vdc > the PA runs, at low power of course (up to 15W), and complies the > calculations; with supply between 30 and 50 Vdc the output go down to a > couple of W. > I made several trials it the last days, changing the core of the xfmr, > the turn ratio, the kind of capacitators but nothing changes (or at > least the change are within a fraction of dB). > > that's the sad history Stefan... > All thoughts and suggestions are welcome! (including go to fish ;-)) ) > Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: selberdenken@posteo.de > Data: 3-giu-2017 16.19 > A: > Ogg: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Hi Marco, > > If you like, i can help you. Just need a schematic to see what you > want > to do. Targer power, voltage, etc... > > 73, Stefan > > Am 03.06.2017 16:02, schrieb marcocadeddu@tin.it: > >> Hi Alan, Andy, Chris, >> >> I replaced the caps in the output LC with WIMA FKP1, the 2 caps wich >> replaces the missing half of the bridge are still Cornell Dubillier >> 940C serie (rated at 9A @100kHz), so now all the caps are pulse rated >> but... >> I regret to admit it, nothing changed :-(( >> Power out increases from 10 to 30Vdc and at 40Vdc after a first pulse >> the power slowly decreases till a couple of watts.. >> >> Just to check another thing: being the coil of the guard circuit >> disconnected, I jointed the 2 coils together (they are wound on the >> same support) increasing so the inductance of the L (25T more). Of >> course I had to retune and now I need C in the range of 5000pF but >> > this > >> narrowed the 3dB bandwidth of the LC from abt 15kHz to abt 8kHz so is >> the Q increased! >> >> ... I should visit Decathlon and look for a fishing rod! >> >> your sincerely depressed IK1HSS >> >> ----Messaggio originale---- >> Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com >> Data: 2-giu-2017 15.58 >> A: >> Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >> >> Hi Marco, I may well be wrong I was experimenting with 150W at 35V I >> measured 12 to 15A through the capacitors (from memory) .......the >> confirmation is that the change is permanent. I dont remember seeing >> any >> heating effects. Single ended Class E may be considerably different >> > to > >> H-bridge. The currents a lower power will be less, about 1.5A or so >> (??) I >> am not sure it that would produce damage, but you would certainly see >> it as >> the power increased. >> >> Good Luck with it >> Alan >> G3NYK >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 2:00 PM >> Subject: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >> >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> and thanks for joining :-) >> it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of "high >> currents".. >> The PA is an half bridge like >> Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these problem >> trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W).. >> Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested just in >> > case > >> my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. >> 73 Marco >> ----Messaggio originale---- >> Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com >> Data: 2-giu-2017 14.36 >> A: >> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >> >> Hi Marco I dont know where you are putting the caps but I am assuming >> they >> are passing a high RF corrent. I found that the old style (valve) >> > high > >> voltage caps in my Class E test rig changed capacitance permanently >> during >> and after a run (capacitance reduced). I assumed that the current was >> fusing >> the foil connection to the lead-out wires. When using "pulse rated" >> capacitors as used in SMPSUs I had no further capacitance change >> problems. >> The ones I have are RIFA PHE 428 2000v from RS Components. I think >> Farnell >> do a WIMA equivalent. >> >> Best Wishes >> Alan >> G3NYK >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:06 PM >> Subject: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >> >> >> now my thoughts are even more confused.... >> Hi Andy, me again.... >> after a long night of meditation, I remembered I had a bounch of old >> style mica capacitators 1000pF 1000V.. >> I put >> 9 of them in parallel to get the closer value to the 8800pF I had >> before. >> Of course the resonance moved a bit and now is on 134.5 kHz with 3dB >> bandwidth of 9 kHz (Q=15 I know is a bit to high..) so carried out >> > some > >> tests on 134 kHz (of course on the dummyload) all without guard >> > circuit > >> 1st test xfmr 7T/19T (Ae197mm² R50 mat T38): 2Wout @10Vdc; 6,5 >> Wout@20Vdc; 13,7Wout@30Vdc stable.. @40Vdc after a quick peak the >> > power > >> slowly goes down till below 1W! >> 2nd test I had still on hands the previous xfmr 5T/12T (Ae197mm² same >> core as 1st test) so was worth to make a trial... same trend :-( for >> Vdc> 30V after a first peak... it goes down. >> I had another core available with different material (N30, Ae 154mm² >> R58) so I prepared a new xfmr with this core 7T/14T: >> 1,4Wout@10Vdc; 4,6Wout@20Vdc; 9,2Wout@30Vdc .... at 40Vdc a short >> > burst > >> with almost 15Wout and then down down down... :-(((((( >> >> I noticed a difference in comparison to your project: you connected >> > the > >> + and - rails to ground via 10nF and here I used 100nF caps could it >> explain this behaviour? >> >> 73 Marco >> >> ----Messaggio originale---- >> Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it >> Data: 1-giu-2017 22.20 >> A: >> Ogg: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >> >> that was also my thought.. but they run at room temperature: the >> resonance is obtained with 4 polyesther 2200 pF 2000 Vdc caps. the >> classic boxes 25x15x5mm >> >> Marco >> >> ---- >> Messaggio originale---- >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com >> Data: 1-giu-2017 22.03 >> A: >> Ogg: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >> >> If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like >> capacitors >> heating up and changing its value. I can't think of any other >> component >> that will change with dissipation / heating. What type of capacitor >> are >> you using in the tank? >> >> Andy >> >> >> On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing >>> flowers? >>> >>> Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that >>> some effects in this area are present. >>> >>> I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected >>> simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. >>> The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output >>> >>> >> is >> >> >>> stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output >>> starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at >>> > 40 > >>> and 50V. >>> The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts >>> > from > >>> 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. >>> >>> I need a long weekend of meditation... >>> 73 Marco IK1HSS >>> >>> >>> ----Messaggio originale---- >>> Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it >>> Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 >>> A: >>> Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >>> >>> Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D >>> >>> yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward >>> >>> >> the >> >> >>> PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) >>> >>> the PS should >>> provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for >>> >>> >> 20A >> >> >>> @ 25°C (13A @ 100°C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try ;-) >>> >>> I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level >>> where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm²Ae: if I >>> am >>> not totally wrong B should be< 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the >>> >>> >> primary >> >> >>> Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel >>> > is > >>> running in its cage ;-) >>> >>> Thanks again for assistence >>> >>> Marco IK1HSS >>> >>> >>> >>> ----Messaggio originale---- >>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com >>> Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 >>> A: >>> Cc: >>> Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >>> >>> 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance >>> > of > >>> 6.8 >>> ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't >>> think >>> you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more >>> realistic. >>> >>> As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very >>> wrong. >>> I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core >>> >>> >> Ae, >> >> >>> but >>> lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. >>> >>> V = 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax >>> >>> >> of >> >> >>> 0.1 >>> that suggests 85V RMS. >>> Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . >>> Before >>> a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload = 13 ohms >>> >>> Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be >>> customised >>> to >>> you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper >>> settings >>> foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. >>> Only >>> when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard >>> > circuit. > >>> When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) >>> unit >>> before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Hi Andy... me again... >>>> >>>> I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick >>>> dinner and connected all, but... >>>> >>>> now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my >>>> readings/calculations: >>>> (see attached picture) >>>> again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc >>>> >>>> >> after >> >> >>>> an initial burst it start to fall down.. >>>> I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 >>>> >>>> >>> kHz >>> >>> >>>> with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the >>>> "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... >>>> >>>> mumble mumble >>>> >>>> I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at >>>> 180V! >>>> >>>> Marco, IK1HSS >>>> >>>> >>>> ----Messaggio originale---- >>>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com >>>> Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 >>>> A: >>>> Cc: >>>> Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >>>> >>>> I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there >>>> >>>> >> the >> >> >>>> values are different from your statement in the email. It shows >>>> primary 5 >>>> turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 >>>> >>>> >> ohms >> >> >>>> which >>>> is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to >>>> >>>> >> the >> >> >>>> ideal >>>> Rl >>>> >>>> The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high >>>> >>>> >> a >> >> >>> Q >>> >>> >>>> is >>>> used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the >>>> >>>> >>> region >>> >>> >>>> of >>>> 6. >>>> >>>> Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 >>>> Watts >>>> from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will >>>> >>>> >> end >> >> >>>> up >>>> with high voltage and critical tuning >>>> >>>> Andy G4JNT >>>> >>>> On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Yes. >>>>> As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that >>>>> >>>>> >> the >> >> >>>> peak >>>> >>>> >>>>> of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER >>>>> >>>>> >> than >> >> >>>> the peak >>>> >>>> >>>>> by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more >>>>> >>>>> >>> power >>> >>> >>>> (1.6 >>>> >>>> >>>>> times) than it was supposed to. >>>>> >>>>> So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine >>>>> component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of >>>>> >>>>> >> the >> >> >>>>> resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to >>>>> >>>>> >>> RMS- >>> >>> >>>> sine >>>> >>>> >>>>> ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a >>>>> >>>>> >>>> further >>>> >>>> >>>>> factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. >>>>> >>>>> Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux >>>>> >>>>> >>> in >>> a >>> >>> >>>>> magnetic code, V = 4.44.F.N.A.B >>>>> The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes >>>>> >>>>> >> about >> >> >>>> from >>>> >>>> >>>>> the same sort of sine to square transform. >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it>>>> >>>>> >> it> >> >> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the >>>>>> >>>>>> >> same >> >> >>>> of >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Vrms before FETs make their work! >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! >>>>>> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with >>>>>> >>>>>> >> the >> >> >>>>>> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to >>>>>> >>>>>> >> burnout >> >> >>>> the >>>> >>>> >>>>>> antenna hi >>>>>> >>>>>> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> 73 Marco, IK1HSS >>>>>> ----Messaggio originale---- >>>>>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com >>>>>> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 >>>>>> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", >>>>>> >>>>>> Cc: >>>>>> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >>>>>> >>>>>> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output >>>>>> transformer >>>>>> doesn't look right. >>>>>> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary >>>>>> >>>>>> >> of >> >> >>>> 12 >>>> >>>> >>>>>> turns...*" >>>>>> >>>>>> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. >>>>>> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 = 229V pk-pk >>>>>> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] = 81V RMS >>>>>> >>>>>> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> (fund) >>> = >>> >>> >>>>>> 0.45VDC >>>>>> >>>>>> For 500 Watts out, Rload = 81 ^ 2 / 500 = 13 ohms >>>>>> >>>>>> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) = >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> 1.9: >>> >>> >>>>>> 1 so >>>>>> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> turns >>>> >>>> >>>>>> on >>>>>> the primary >>>>>> >>>>>> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary >>>>>> >>>>>> >> exactly >> >> >>>> as >>>> >>>> >>>>>> the >>>>>> square of the voltage. >>>>>> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: >>>>>> >>>>>> 12V DC = 12V pk-pk = 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi = 5.4V RMS >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> (fundamental) >>>> >>>> >>>>>> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 = 2.2 Watts >>>>>> >>>>>> check using ratio of voltages, squared : >>>>>> >>>>>> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W = 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. >>>>>> QED >>>>>> >>>>>> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 = >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> 78 >>> >>> >>>>>> ohms >>>>>> >>>>>> At 40V DC == 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 = 4.1 watts >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> which >>> >>> >>>> is >>>> >>>> >>>>>> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, >>>>>> >>>>>> >> but >> >> >>>> the >>>> >>>> >>>>>> low >>>>>> power is in the area of what you measured.. >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy G4JNT >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it>>>>> >>>>>> >> it> >> >> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Chris, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> had >>> >>> >>>> no >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> success.. >>>>>>> As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the >>>>>>> attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... >>>>>>> Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and >>>>>>> suggestion are welcome! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 73, Marco IK1HSS >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original message----- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 >>>>>>> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >>>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi LF, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! >>>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( >>>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> of >>> >>> >>>>>>> Andy.. >>>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> the >>> >>> >>>>>>> 180Vdc supply? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you >>>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> believed >> >> >>> to >>> >>> >>>> be >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> clean. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" >>>>>>> To: >>>>>>> Cc: >>>>>>> Bcc: >>>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) >>>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... >>>>>>> Hi LF, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! >>>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( >>>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> of >>> >>> >>>>>>> Andy.. >>>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> the >>> >>> >>>>>>> 180Vdc supply? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you >>>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> believed >> >> >>> to >>> >>> >>>> be >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> clean. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Mon Jun 5 14:47:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v55Cl5PS027105 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 14:47:06 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHrKA-0003Zo-Jk for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 13:41:34 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHrK9-0003Zf-QT for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 13:41:33 +0100 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHrK7-0003ru-5A for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 13:41:32 +0100 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D441320B30 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 14:41:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 3whDvr60Krzytm for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 14:41:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <59355178.2080007@posteo.de> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2017 14:41:28 +0200 From: DK7FC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <592F348B.8060302@posteo.de> <593176F7.2050407@posteo.de> In-Reply-To: <593176F7.2050407@posteo.de> X-Scan-Signature: 64a43ebf6189d3fbac7adf77f3718769 Subject: VLF: New EbNaut announcement... Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070902080408000509090905" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 11896 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070902080408000509090905 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi VLF, For some local tests i like to transmit the 2 character message that i already sent on 970 Hz 3 weeks ago. This time on 6470 Hz.... Such a short message with sch long symbols may be interesting for newcomers or various tests by the established VLF receivers... *f = 6470.100000 Hz Start time: 05.Jun.2017 13:00:00 UTC Symbol period: 60 s Characters: 2 CRC bits: 3 Coding 16K21A Duration: 9h, 20min Antenna current: ~ 460 mA* 73, Stefan --------------070902080408000509090905 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi VLF,

For some local tests i like to transmit the 2 character message that i already sent on 970 Hz 3 weeks ago. This time on 6470 Hz....

Such a short message with sch long symbols may be interesting for newcomers or various tests by the established VLF receivers...


f = 6470.100000 Hz
Start time: 05.Jun.2017 13:00:00 UTC
Symbol period: 60 s
Characters: 2
CRC bits: 3
Coding 16K21A
Duration: 9h, 20min
Antenna current: ~ 460 mA


73, Stefan
--------------070902080408000509090905-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Mon Jun 5 16:01:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v55E1pNe027431 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 16:01:52 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHsPo-0003lT-PJ for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 14:51:28 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHsPl-0003lK-JE for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 14:51:25 +0100 Received: from smtp1web.tin.it ([212.216.176.195]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHsPh-00048M-EC for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 14:51:24 +0100 Received: from feu19 (10.192.64.29) by smtp1web.tin.it (8.6.060.43) id 58893FFA02991F00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 15:51:19 +0200 Received: from (93.146.209.118) by wmlighttin.pc.tim.it; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 15:51:19 +0200 Message-ID: <15c7886311f.marcocadeddu@tin.it> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 15:51:19 +0200 (CEST) From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 93.146.209.118 X-Scan-Signature: c5351f9570f1ff810b43b9724575a97c Subject: R: Re: R: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Content-Type: text/plain;charset="UTF-8" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lipkowski.org id v55E1pNe027431 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11897 Hi Stefan, and thank you for effort and suggestion :-) Indeed carefully checking while testing I found what was going wrong beyond 30Vdd of supply to FETs: the xfmr between the IXDD stage and gates became very hot!! Nothing up to 30Vdd but then.. xfmr warm and degradated wave forms! The xfmr was wound on a little binocular form made of N30 material and I replaced it with a BN43-202 increasing the number of turns (total inductance a bit more than 1mH) and everything was solved and PA now is almost ready to go to the final intended supply of 180Vdc. The tank coil, made of 1,5mm² wire was then warming, and yesterday I made a new, bulky, coil with 2,5 mm² which also get warm (abt 60°C) melting the hot melt glue used to fix to the chassis... so now some mechanical artwork for new support without hotmelt glue... Marco IK1HSS ----Messaggio originale---- Da: selberdenken@posteo.de Data: 5-giu-2017 11.18 A: Ogg: Re: R: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... Hello Marco, I was unable to write a longer text for a few days (no desktop PC available, just the smartphone and Teamviewer) so my answer is a bit late. You've got a lot of advice since that time. I'm just adding what came to my mind... -I assume you already checked that the supply voltages stay constand in any working point. -The gate voltages are important. Also the duty cycle should be constant and close to 50% for best operation. In my H bridge PA for 137 kHz the gate voltage is +- 8V, quite a rectangular waveform. Unfortunately i have no scope captures quickly available. -Try to lower the 4 Ohm resistor after the IDXX driver. It is there to avoid oscillations after the switching slopes. Maybe 2 Ohm is enough. -Even more important: Make sure the transformer is wound for a minimum stray inductance because this will quickly lead to strong oscillations. Wind all the 3 windings equally spread arround the whole core (ferrite, e.g. N30, AL>2000nH). Wind them trifilar, not separated. If there are still problems show us images of: The gate source voltage, the gate drive transformer. 73, Stefan Am 03.06.2017 16:44, schrieb marcocadeddu@tin.it: > Hi Stefan, > > and thank you :-) so you have too something to mumble while sending > VLF SMS ;-) > There is nothing really new.. I started from an avalable > chassis with on board a PS giving 180Vdc (1200W) and assembled the > Andy's half bridge 700W switching PA and before give it the full power > I'm checking with lower DC supply. Attached you see the schematic with > some change at the moment.. > The output xfmr has 7T/19T, the coil of the guard circuit is not > connected (now is in serie with L2) and the resonating caps now are > 5x1000pF in parallel. > The aim is finally with 180Vdc of supply have an output of 0,5÷1kW > but.... as you probably red in the previous messages, from 10 to 30Vdc > the PA runs, at low power of course (up to 15W), and complies the > calculations; with supply between 30 and 50 Vdc the output go down to a > couple of W. > I made several trials it the last days, changing the core of the xfmr, > the turn ratio, the kind of capacitators but nothing changes (or at > least the change are within a fraction of dB). > > that's the sad history Stefan... > All thoughts and suggestions are welcome! (including go to fish ;-)) ) > Marco > > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: selberdenken@posteo.de > Data: 3-giu-2017 16.19 > A: > Ogg: Re: R: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... > > Hi Marco, > > If you like, i can help you. Just need a schematic to see what you > want > to do. Targer power, voltage, etc... > > 73, Stefan > > Am 03.06.2017 16:02, schrieb marcocadeddu@tin.it: > >> Hi Alan, Andy, Chris, >> >> I replaced the caps in the output LC with WIMA FKP1, the 2 caps wich >> replaces the missing half of the bridge are still Cornell Dubillier >> 940C serie (rated at 9A @100kHz), so now all the caps are pulse rated >> but... >> I regret to admit it, nothing changed :-(( >> Power out increases from 10 to 30Vdc and at 40Vdc after a first pulse >> the power slowly decreases till a couple of watts.. >> >> Just to check another thing: being the coil of the guard circuit >> disconnected, I jointed the 2 coils together (they are wound on the >> same support) increasing so the inductance of the L (25T more). Of >> course I had to retune and now I need C in the range of 5000pF but >> > this > >> narrowed the 3dB bandwidth of the LC from abt 15kHz to abt 8kHz so is >> the Q increased! >> >> ... I should visit Decathlon and look for a fishing rod! >> >> your sincerely depressed IK1HSS >> >> ----Messaggio originale---- >> Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com >> Data: 2-giu-2017 15.58 >> A: >> Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >> >> Hi Marco, I may well be wrong I was experimenting with 150W at 35V I >> measured 12 to 15A through the capacitors (from memory) .......the >> confirmation is that the change is permanent. I dont remember seeing >> any >> heating effects. Single ended Class E may be considerably different >> > to > >> H-bridge. The currents a lower power will be less, about 1.5A or so >> (??) I >> am not sure it that would produce damage, but you would certainly see >> it as >> the power increased. >> >> Good Luck with it >> Alan >> G3NYK >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 2:00 PM >> Subject: R: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >> >> >> Hi Alan, >> >> and thanks for joining :-) >> it's hard to believe at this stage that is correct to speak of "high >> currents".. >> The PA is an half bridge like >> Andy's 700W but now I'm testing at low voltage: I see these problem >> trepassing the 30Vdc supply level (and power is about 15W).. >> Anyway will try with the "pulse rated caps" you suggested just in >> > case > >> my "low current" "low tension" ideas are wrong. >> 73 Marco >> ----Messaggio originale---- >> Da: alan.melia@btinternet.com >> Data: 2-giu-2017 14.36 >> A: >> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >> >> Hi Marco I dont know where you are putting the caps but I am assuming >> they >> are passing a high RF corrent. I found that the old style (valve) >> > high > >> voltage caps in my Class E test rig changed capacitance permanently >> during >> and after a run (capacitance reduced). I assumed that the current was >> fusing >> the foil connection to the lead-out wires. When using "pulse rated" >> capacitors as used in SMPSUs I had no further capacitance change >> problems. >> The ones I have are RIFA PHE 428 2000v from RS Components. I think >> Farnell >> do a WIMA equivalent. >> >> Best Wishes >> Alan >> G3NYK >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 1:06 PM >> Subject: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >> >> >> now my thoughts are even more confused.... >> Hi Andy, me again.... >> after a long night of meditation, I remembered I had a bounch of old >> style mica capacitators 1000pF 1000V.. >> I put >> 9 of them in parallel to get the closer value to the 8800pF I had >> before. >> Of course the resonance moved a bit and now is on 134.5 kHz with 3dB >> bandwidth of 9 kHz (Q=15 I know is a bit to high..) so carried out >> > some > >> tests on 134 kHz (of course on the dummyload) all without guard >> > circuit > >> 1st test xfmr 7T/19T (Ae197mm² R50 mat T38): 2Wout @10Vdc; 6,5 >> Wout@20Vdc; 13,7Wout@30Vdc stable.. @40Vdc after a quick peak the >> > power > >> slowly goes down till below 1W! >> 2nd test I had still on hands the previous xfmr 5T/12T (Ae197mm² same >> core as 1st test) so was worth to make a trial... same trend :-( for >> Vdc> 30V after a first peak... it goes down. >> I had another core available with different material (N30, Ae 154mm² >> R58) so I prepared a new xfmr with this core 7T/14T: >> 1,4Wout@10Vdc; 4,6Wout@20Vdc; 9,2Wout@30Vdc .... at 40Vdc a short >> > burst > >> with almost 15Wout and then down down down... :-(((((( >> >> I noticed a difference in comparison to your project: you connected >> > the > >> + and - rails to ground via 10nF and here I used 100nF caps could it >> explain this behaviour? >> >> 73 Marco >> >> ----Messaggio originale---- >> Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it >> Data: 1-giu-2017 22.20 >> A: >> Ogg: R: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >> >> that was also my thought.. but they run at room temperature: the >> resonance is obtained with 4 polyesther 2200 pF 2000 Vdc caps. the >> classic boxes 25x15x5mm >> >> Marco >> >> ---- >> Messaggio originale---- >> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com >> Data: 1-giu-2017 22.03 >> A: >> Ogg: Re: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >> >> If the conditions change as the PA is operating, it looks like >> capacitors >> heating up and changing its value. I can't think of any other >> component >> that will change with dissipation / heating. What type of capacitor >> are >> you using in the tank? >> >> Andy >> >> >> On 1 June 2017 at 19:59, marcocadeddu@tin.it >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> anybody has good ideas for a replacement hobby?? fishing? growing >>> flowers? >>> >>> Andy: the suggestion of try without the guard circuit revealed that >>> some effects in this area are present. >>> >>> I left the guard coil in place (I'm a bit lazy...) and disconnected >>> simply the 2 wires from the rectifier bridge. >>> The output improve of about 4dB with Vdd from 10 to 30V, the output >>> >>> >> is >> >> >>> stable up to 20Vdd, on 30V it show a peak of 16W, then the output >>> starts to decrease till a couple of watts :-( this happens also at >>> > 40 > >>> and 50V. >>> The resonance of the output LC (with the guard coil open) shifts >>> > from > >>> 137 to 140 kHz and the bandwidth decreases from 20kHz to 10 kHz. >>> >>> I need a long weekend of meditation... >>> 73 Marco IK1HSS >>> >>> >>> ----Messaggio originale---- >>> Da: marcocadeddu@tin.it >>> Data: 31-mag-2017 21.05 >>> A: >>> Ogg: R: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >>> >>> Andy.. you are almost better than online help desks :-D >>> >>> yes the guard circuit is on place but no current is flowing toward >>> >>> >> the >> >> >>> PA, testing disconnetting it needs just to warm up the iron ;-) >>> >>> the PS should >>> provide enough juice for 1200W input and the IRF460A are rated for >>> >>> >> 20A >> >> >>> @ 25°C (13A @ 100°C) so.. I admit it would like to give a try ;-) >>> >>> I don't guess the core is saturating specially at this power level >>> where rms is only 22V, the core is 50mm OD and has 195,7 mm²Ae: if I >>> am >>> not totally wrong B should be< 0,03T @50V with 7 turns on the >>> >>> >> primary >> >> >>> Will tru to disconnect the guard circuit just in case the squirrel >>> > is > >>> running in its cage ;-) >>> >>> Thanks again for assistence >>> >>> Marco IK1HSS >>> >>> >>> >>> ----Messaggio originale---- >>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com >>> Data: 31-mag-2017 20.39 >>> A: >>> Cc: >>> Ogg: Re: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >>> >>> 7:19 turns (assuming 50R output) means you have a load resistance >>> > of > >>> 6.8 >>> ohms which for 180V DC (81 V RSM fund sine) is nearly 1kW I don't >>> think >>> you really mean to go that extreme do you? 13 ohms is more >>> realistic. >>> >>> As for the tank resonance changing as power increases, that is very >>> wrong. >>> I wonder if the transformer is saturating. Not sure of your core >>> >>> >> Ae, >> >> >>> but >>> lets assume 200mm square, a core of about 16mm diameter. >>> >>> V = 4.44.F.N.A.B Plugging in 137kHz 7 turns, 200 mm^2 and a Bmax >>> >>> >> of >> >> >>> 0.1 >>> that suggests 85V RMS. >>> Which is exactlyly what you have. I suggest more primary turns . >>> Before >>> a transformer ratio of 1:2 was suggested, for Rload = 13 ohms >>> >>> Is the guard circuit in place ? Don't forget, it has to be >>> customised >>> to >>> you exact currents and coil Q. Get teh PA operating to its proper >>> settings >>> foirst - that you can do at low voltage power, it scales perfectly. >>> Only >>> when it it working properly can you add and set up the guard >>> > circuit. > >>> When I did teh 700W PA, I had a complete workign (albeit unreliable) >>> unit >>> before even thinking of teh guard circuitry. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 31 May 2017 at 18:50, marcocadeddu@tin.it >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Hi Andy... me again... >>>> >>>> I was so curious to see what could happen thatI had a very quick >>>> dinner and connected all, but... >>>> >>>> now the output xfmr has 7T/19T here my >>>> readings/calculations: >>>> (see attached picture) >>>> again the power increase from 10 to 30Vcc then from 30 to 50Vcc >>>> >>>> >> after >> >> >>>> an initial burst it start to fall down.. >>>> I checked also the resonance of the LC: till 30Vcc is tuned on 137 >>>> >>>> >>> kHz >>> >>> >>>> with a 3dB bandwidth of 20 kHz, when I move to 40 and 50Vcc the >>>> "maximum" output shifts to 165 kHz... >>>> >>>> mumble mumble >>>> >>>> I tempted to have roasted FETs for dessert and see what happens at >>>> 180V! >>>> >>>> Marco, IK1HSS >>>> >>>> >>>> ----Messaggio originale---- >>>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com >>>> Data: 30-mag-2017 23.50 >>>> A: >>>> Cc: >>>> Ogg: Re: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >>>> >>>> I've just looked again at the circuit diagram you sent - on there >>>> >>>> >> the >> >> >>>> values are different from your statement in the email. It shows >>>> primary 5 >>>> turns, secondary 12 turns so a load resistance in the order of 9 >>>> >>>> >> ohms >> >> >>>> which >>>> is rather low if you are intending a Vdd of 180V - but closer to >>>> >>>> >> the >> >> >>>> ideal >>>> Rl >>>> >>>> The tank components have a reactance of 130 ohms which is too high >>>> >>>> >> a >> >> >>> Q >>> >>> >>>> is >>>> used with that 9 ohms Rload, You should be aiming for a Q in the >>>> >>>> >>> region >>> >>> >>>> of >>>> 6. >>>> >>>> Even with the optimum load R of 13 ohms described last time for 500 >>>> Watts >>>> from 180V rail the resulting Q of 10 is a bit too high - you will >>>> >>>> >> end >> >> >>>> up >>>> with high voltage and critical tuning >>>> >>>> Andy G4JNT >>>> >>>> On 29 May 2017 at 19:07, Andy Talbot wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Yes. >>>>> As you'll see in my original write up, I originally forgot that >>>>> >>>>> >> the >> >> >>>> peak >>>> >>>> >>>>> of the fundamental sine component of a square wave is GREATER >>>>> >>>>> >> than >> >> >>>> the peak >>>> >>>> >>>>> by a factor of 4 / pi and initially my PA delivered a lot more >>>>> >>>>> >>> power >>> >>> >>>> (1.6 >>>> >>>> >>>>> times) than it was supposed to. >>>>> >>>>> So if the square wave has a peak value of 1, its fundamental sine >>>>> component has a peak value of 4/pi or around 1.27. The RMS of >>>>> >>>>> >> the >> >> >>>>> resulting sine is SQRT(2) less than this giving a Peak square to >>>>> >>>>> >>> RMS- >>> >>> >>>> sine >>>> >>>> >>>>> ratio of 0.9.. If you specifye peak-peak of the square wave, a >>>>> >>>>> >>>> further >>>> >>>> >>>>> factor of 2 applies, leading to the 0.45 ratio described before. >>>>> >>>>> Incidentally, this same ratio appears in that equation for flux >>>>> >>>>> >>> in >>> a >>> >>> >>>>> magnetic code, V = 4.44.F.N.A.B >>>>> The magic number 4.44 is actually SQRT(2) * pi and comes >>>>> >>>>> >> about >> >> >>>> from >>>> >>>> >>>>> the same sort of sine to square transform. >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> On 29 May 2017 at 18:48, marcocadeddu@tin.it>>>> >>>>> >> it> >> >> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> uhuh... a slightly silly misleading assumption... Vdc are the >>>>>> >>>>>> >> same >> >> >>>> of >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Vrms before FETs make their work! >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you Andy for pointing out it!! >>>>>> With this approach calculation changes a bit and probably with >>>>>> >>>>>> >> the >> >> >>>>>> right Xfmr the PA can give higher satisfaction :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> Hopefully the FETs will survive and this time I'm ready to >>>>>> >>>>>> >> burnout >> >> >>>> the >>>> >>>> >>>>>> antenna hi >>>>>> >>>>>> Will keep you both updated, thank you once more Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> 73 Marco, IK1HSS >>>>>> ----Messaggio originale---- >>>>>> Da: andy.g4jnt@gmail.com >>>>>> Data: 28-mag-2017 21.18 >>>>>> A: "marcocadeddu@tin.it", >>>>>> >>>>>> Cc: >>>>>> Ogg: LF: Re: I: Fw: For today the FETs survived... >>>>>> >>>>>> First thing I noticed is that your turns ratio on the output >>>>>> transformer >>>>>> doesn't look right. >>>>>> You quote "* ... with primary winding of 15 turns and secondary >>>>>> >>>>>> >> of >> >> >>>> 12 >>>> >>>> >>>>>> turns...*" >>>>>> >>>>>> 180V DC in a half bridge is 180V peak-peak square wave. >>>>>> The fundamental sine part of that is 4/pi * 180 = 229V pk-pk >>>>>> so is 229V /[2.SQRT(2)] = 81V RMS >>>>>> >>>>>> To a good approximation RMS(fund) from a half bridge is Vrms >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> (fund) >>> = >>> >>> >>>>>> 0.45VDC >>>>>> >>>>>> For 500 Watts out, Rload = 81 ^ 2 / 500 = 13 ohms >>>>>> >>>>>> So to match to 50 ohms you need a turns ratio of SQRT(50/13) = >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> 1.9: >>> >>> >>>>>> 1 so >>>>>> call it 2:1 Keeping 12 turns on the secondary means you need 6 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> turns >>>> >>>> >>>>>> on >>>>>> the primary >>>>>> >>>>>> When operating at reduced voltage, the power out will vary >>>>>> >>>>>> >> exactly >> >> >>>> as >>>> >>>> >>>>>> the >>>>>> square of the voltage. >>>>>> Recalculating from first principles for a 12V supply: >>>>>> >>>>>> 12V DC = 12V pk-pk = 12 / [2.SQRT(2)] * 4/pi = 5.4V RMS >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> (fundamental) >>>> >>>> >>>>>> in 13 ohms should give 5.4^2/13 = 2.2 Watts >>>>>> >>>>>> check using ratio of voltages, squared : >>>>>> >>>>>> (12V/180V) ^ 2 * 500W = 2.2 Watts which is the same as above. >>>>>> QED >>>>>> >>>>>> Your 15:12 ratio result sin a load impedance of (15/12)^2 * 50 = >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> 78 >>> >>> >>>>>> ohms >>>>>> >>>>>> At 40V DC == 18V RMS(fund) that will give 18^2/78 = 4.1 watts >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> which >>> >>> >>>> is >>>> >>>> >>>>>> actually LESS that you are seeing - the 2* discrepancy is odd, >>>>>> >>>>>> >> but >> >> >>>> the >>>> >>>> >>>>>> low >>>>>> power is in the area of what you measured.. >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy G4JNT >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 28 May 2017 at 19:34, marcocadeddu@tin.it>>>>> >>>>>> >> it> >> >> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Chris, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I tried to post this message on the reflector but apparently I >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> had >>> >>> >>>> no >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> success.. >>>>>>> As promised I keep you updated but as you can read in the >>>>>>> attachment the first trials were not enocouraging... >>>>>>> Andy, may I ask you to read my report? your interpretation and >>>>>>> suggestion are welcome! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 73, Marco IK1HSS >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original message----- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" marcocadeddu@tin.it >>>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 >>>>>>> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >>>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi LF, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! >>>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( >>>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> of >>> >>> >>>>>>> Andy.. >>>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> the >>> >>> >>>>>>> 180Vdc supply? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you >>>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> believed >> >> >>> to >>> >>> >>>> be >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> clean. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>>>>> From: "marcocadeddu@tin.it" >>>>>>> To: >>>>>>> Cc: >>>>>>> Bcc: >>>>>>> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 17:01:33 +0200 (CEST) >>>>>>> Subject: For today the FETs survived... >>>>>>> Hi LF, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hope that also the toroids of Chris survived! >>>>>>> My FETs survived, but they are not working as expected :-( >>>>>>> Attached the report on my attempt to duplicate the half bridge >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> of >>> >>> >>>>>>> Andy.. >>>>>>> Has anyone suggestions before I try to cook all connecting to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> the >>> >>> >>>>>>> 180Vdc supply? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you >>>>>>> 73 Marco IK1HSS >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> This message has been scanned by E.F.A. Project and is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> believed >> >> >>> to >>> >>> >>>> be >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> clean. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Mon Jun 5 16:42:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v55EgSxb027590 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 16:42:29 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dHt8D-0003ur-Ig for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 15:37:21 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dHt89-0003ui-Qj for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 15:37:17 +0100 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dHt86-0004Jl-0d for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 15:37:16 +0100 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0761620A7A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 16:37:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 3whHTN02mSz10HX for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 16:37:11 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <59356C97.2020600@posteo.de> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2017 16:37:11 +0200 From: DK7FC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <15c543f3844-234d-1bd23@webprd-m27.mail.aol.com> <2bafcee7-69e0-872f-e01a-36d82f952f2e@abelian.org> <592EBF95.3030804@posteo.de> In-Reply-To: <592EBF95.3030804@posteo.de> X-Scan-Signature: 7aa9ad08848e488e22e0ff1d71f4ef1d Subject: Re: LF: Octo-soundcard for the Raspi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11898 Hi all, Oh, now it is available at amazon UK: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Octo-channel-sound-card-Raspberry/dp/B06Y3PZ6MF But not in DL... 73, Stefan Am 31.05.2017 15:05, schrieb DK7FC: > Hi all, > > Does someone tried the new octo-coundcard with 6 inputs for the Raspi? > There is a forum link: > http://www.flatmax.org/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=9&sid=38d2f3c26e926886b446abdadb011928 > > It looks like they are available in the US now. As far as i can see > there's still nothing in UK or DL... > > 73, Stefan > From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Tue Jun 6 14:08:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: INFN-TO: mailn 1233; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v56C804V000566 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 14:08:02 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dID5I-00054Y-UP for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 12:55:40 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dID5F-00054P-Sk for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 12:55:37 +0100 Received: from omr-m009e.mx.aol.com ([204.29.186.8]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dID5C-00084U-64 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 12:55:36 +0100 Received: from mtaomg-maa02.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-maa02.mx.aol.com [172.26.222.144]) by omr-m009e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id AB77B380004C for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 07:55:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-acb10h.mail.aol.com (core-acb10.mail.aol.com [172.27.24.10]) by mtaomg-maa02.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 3D58638000084 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 07:55:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 80.146.228.71 by webprd-m61.mail.aol.com (10.74.5.49) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Tue, 06 Jun 2017 07:55:27 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 07:55:27 -0400 From: Markus Vester To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-Id: <15c7d427aa5-45d-331e2@webprd-m61.mail.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <59355178.2080007@posteo.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: JAS STD X-Originating-IP: [80.146.228.71] x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-VSS-INFO: 5800.7501/116848 X-AOL-VSS-CODE: clean DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20150623; t=1496750130; bh=TdSCKFkhfygYmH/tGg9nRavSKwE5hjzYATywy/vxasE=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=XnPA17+2TkGcvT5f0UJwKV6srZ27UAkePRcw6GcEueG2YIDUJdEehnFyd0peg7+H4 Jal5fky/DwvNdDNrI4m29IIqgXXj/3ZfoBFghsMekhOJkKzEd4x1kCrHBus4WAdIWE YUvyq6jdfVPY7INbmtkik2QaAkXZ4ropXZzL2jWA= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1ade90593698307c43 X-Scan-Signature: 0bb7d8dd1b91237b22820287136fb7f4 Subject: Re: VLF: New EbNaut announcement... Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_254417_1729341403.1496750127779" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11899 ------=_Part_254417_1729341403.1496750127779 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_254416_531839825.1496750127779" ------=_Part_254416_531839825.1496750127779 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stefan, your message was decoded well from DL0AO cardioid data. Initially, the best decode appeared with a phase slope, -30 0 0 30. Enterin= g a frequency offset of one FFT bin (+9.3 uHz), the blue peak seems to be s= hifted slightly to the left as expected, but the same best decode was achie= ved with flat phase.=20 This seems to confirm your earlier observation of a one bin offset. This is= strange, as I've never observed such an offset in earlier experiments base= d on shorter data with wider FFT resolution (31 uHz or more), and I am lack= ing an explanation. I don't think we can blame propagation because if there= was any Doppler around sunset this should be negative rather than positive= . =20 Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: DK7FC An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Mo, 5. Jun 2017 14:44 Betreff: VLF: New EbNaut announcement... Hi VLF,=20 For some local tests i like to transmit the 2 character message that i alr= eady sent on 970 Hz 3 weeks ago. This time on 6470 Hz.... Such a short message with sch long symbols may be interesting for newcomer= s or various tests by the established VLF receivers... f =3D 6470.100000 Hz Start time: 05.Jun.2017 13:00:00 UTC Symbol period: 60 s Characters: 2 CRC bits: 3 Coding 16K21A Duration: 9h, 20min Antenna current: ~ 460 mA 73, Stefan ------=_Part_254416_531839825.1496750127779 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Stefan,

your message was decoded= well from DL0AO cardioid data.

Initially, the best de= code appeared with a phase slope, -30 0 0 30. Entering a frequency offset o= f one FFT bin (+9.3 uHz), the blue peak seems to be shifted slightly to the= left as expected, but the same best decode was achieved with flat phase. <= /div>

This seems to confirm your earlier observation of= a one bin offset. This is strange, as I've never observed such an offset i= n earlier experiments based on shorter data with wider FFT resolution (31 u= Hz or more), and I am lacking an explanation. I don't think we can blame pr= opagation because if there was any Doppler around sunset this should&n= bsp;be negative rather than positive. 

Best 73,<= br>Markus (DF6NM)


-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitt= eilung-----
Von: DK7FC <selberdenken@posteo.de>
An: rsgb_lf_gr= oup <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: Mo, 5. Jun 2017 14:= 44
Betreff: VLF: New EbNaut announcement...

Hi VLF,

For some local tests i like to transmit the 2 character message that i already sent on 970 Hz 3 weeks ago. This time on 6470 Hz....

Such a short message with sch long symbols may be interesting for newcomers or various tests by the established VLF receivers...


f =3D 6470.100000 Hz
Start time: 05.Jun.2017   13:00:00 UTC
Symbol period: 60 s
Characters: 2
CRC bits: 3
Coding 16K21A
Duration: 9h, 20min
Antenna current: ~ 460 mA


73, Stefan
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------=_Part_254417_1729341403.1496750127779-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Tue Jun 6 14:26:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=DC_PNG_UNO_LARGO, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v56CQFtY000668 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 14:26:16 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dIDV8-0005CW-U2 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 13:22:22 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dIDV8-0005CN-0z for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 13:22:22 +0100 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dIDV5-0008CY-3s for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 13:22:20 +0100 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D32C020F6D for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 14:22:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 3whrRC46qMz10BF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 14:22:15 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <59369E76.3080001@posteo.de> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2017 14:22:14 +0200 From: DK7FC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <15c7d427aa5-45d-331e2@webprd-m61.mail.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <15c7d427aa5-45d-331e2@webprd-m61.mail.aol.com> X-Scan-Signature: 57c46fc57df9e768804caa43485df2f4 Subject: Re: VLF: New EbNaut announcement... Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010201030902060701050304" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11900 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010201030902060701050304 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080904070604050405010407" --------------080904070604050405010407 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Markus, VLF, Thanks for the information. Yes, something must be strange. Look on my results/attachments. I generated a local decode from the tree, of course with a big SNR. But the phase! I got no better result than 0 0 0 0 (phase pattern), as expected. Your tool telles there is no frequency offset and just a small timing offset. Is this instable phase from the transmitter or the receiver site? Maybe some components in the loop preamp? Hard to imagine. Additionally i took a recording on the Raspi, using the setting as for the ULF experiments, i.e. 24 kS/s sample rate. Unfortunately today i shut down the Raspi before stopping the recording process. This corrupted the file. So i will repeat the experiment another time, today, same start time and parameters. Yesterday it was warm and sunny, today it is overcast and rainy. If the phase change is genuine and if it has to do with temperure changes, we may see a difference in the next decode. 73, Stefan Am 06.06.2017 13:55, schrieb Markus Vester: > Hi Stefan, > > your message was decoded well from DL0AO cardioid data. > > Initially, the best decode appeared with a phase slope, -30 0 0 30. > Entering a frequency offset of one FFT bin (+9.3 uHz), the blue peak > seems to be shifted slightly to the left as expected, but the same > best decode was achieved with flat phase. > > This seems to confirm your earlier observation of a one bin offset. > This is strange, as I've never observed such an offset in earlier > experiments based on shorter data with wider FFT resolution (31 uHz or > more), and I am lacking an explanation. I don't think we can blame > propagation because if there was any Doppler around sunset > this should be negative rather than positive. > > Best 73, > Markus (DF6NM) > > > -----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung----- > Von: DK7FC > An: rsgb_lf_group > Verschickt: Mo, 5. Jun 2017 14:44 > Betreff: VLF: New EbNaut announcement... > > Hi VLF, > > For some local tests i like to transmit the 2 character message that i > already sent on 970 Hz 3 weeks ago. This time on 6470 Hz.... > > Such a short message with sch long symbols may be interesting for > newcomers or various tests by the established VLF receivers... > > > *f = 6470.100000 Hz > Start time: 05.Jun.2017 13:00:00 UTC > Symbol period: 60 s > Characters: 2 > CRC bits: 3 > Coding 16K21A > Duration: 9h, 20min > Antenna current: ~ 460 mA* > > 73, Stefan --------------080904070604050405010407 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Markus, VLF,

Thanks for the information. Yes, something must be strange.
Look on my results/attachments.
I generated a local decode from the tree, of course with a big SNR. But the phase! I got no better result than 0 0 0 0 (phase pattern), as expected. Your tool telles there is no frequency offset and just a small timing offset.

Is this instable phase from the transmitter or the receiver site? Maybe some components in the loop preamp? Hard to imagine.

Additionally i took a recording on the Raspi, using the setting as for the ULF experiments, i.e. 24 kS/s sample rate. Unfortunately today i shut down the Raspi before stopping the recording process. This corrupted the file. So i will repeat the experiment another time, today, same start time and parameters.
Yesterday it was warm and sunny, today it is overcast and rainy. If the phase change is genuine and if it has to do with temperure changes, we may see a difference in the next decode.

73, Stefan




Am 06.06.2017 13:55, schrieb Markus Vester:
Hi Stefan,

your message was decoded well from DL0AO cardioid data.

Initially, the best decode appeared with a phase slope, -30 0 0 30. Entering a frequency offset of one FFT bin (+9.3 uHz), the blue peak seems to be shifted slightly to the left as expected, but the same best decode was achieved with flat phase.

This seems to confirm your earlier observation of a one bin offset. This is strange, as I've never observed such an offset in earlier experiments based on shorter data with wider FFT resolution (31 uHz or more), and I am lacking an explanation. I don't think we can blame propagation because if there was any Doppler around sunset this should be negative rather than positive. 

Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)


-----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: DK7FC <selberdenken@posteo.de>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: Mo, 5. Jun 2017 14:44
Betreff: VLF: New EbNaut announcement...

Hi VLF,

For some local tests i like to transmit the 2 character message that i already sent on 970 Hz 3 weeks ago. This time on 6470 Hz....

Such a short message with sch long symbols may be interesting for newcomers or various tests by the established VLF receivers...


f = 6470.100000 Hz
Start time: 05.Jun.2017   13:00:00 UTC
Symbol period: 60 s
Characters: 2
CRC bits: 3
Coding 16K21A
Duration: 9h, 20min
Antenna current: ~ 460 mA


73, Stefan
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Fuz1=3 Fuz2=3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v56Cp8HN000821 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 14:51:09 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dIDt3-0005KD-Ef for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 13:47:05 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dIDt3-0005K4-6G for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 13:47:05 +0100 Received: from lethe.lipkowski.org ([178.32.151.135] helo=lipkowski.org) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dIDt0-0008JM-Dg for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 13:47:03 +0100 Received: from mailn.lipkowski.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v56Cl6Lh000798 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 14:47:06 +0200 Received: from localhost (sq5bpf@localhost) by mailn.lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) with ESMTP id v56Cl5Kc000794 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 14:47:05 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mailn.lipkowski.org: sq5bpf owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 14:47:05 +0200 (CEST) From: Jacek Lipkowski To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: <59355178.2080007@posteo.de> Message-ID: References: <592F348B.8060302@posteo.de> <593176F7.2050407@posteo.de> <59355178.2080007@posteo.de> User-Agent: Alpine 2.11 (DEB 23 2013-08-11) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 on 10.1.3.10 X-Scan-Signature: 1c38f63d01970a2bf149f660c9cb2a37 Subject: Re: VLF: New EbNaut announcement... Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="17435139-1783097161-1496753225=:31885" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11901 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --17435139-1783097161-1496753225=:31885 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Decoded the 20170605 transmission in Warsaw KO02md (message sent to Stefan for confirmation): found rank 2 ber 4.0000e-01 Eb/N0 2.0 M -9.469240904e-01 [xx] ps [ 0 0 0 0 0] carrier phase: 3.9 deg carrier Eb/N0: -1.1 dB carrier Es/N0: -17.98 dB carrier S/N: 9.50 dB in 29.8 uHz, -35.76 dB in 1Hz, -69.74 dB in 2.5kHz elapsed 36 VY 73 Jacek / SQ5BPF On Mon, 5 Jun 2017, DK7FC wrote: > Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2017 14:41:28 +0200 > From: DK7FC > Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Subject: VLF: New EbNaut announcement... > > Hi VLF, > > For some local tests i like to transmit the 2 character message that i already sent on 970 Hz 3 weeks > ago. This time on 6470 Hz.... > > Such a short message with sch long symbols may be interesting for newcomers or various tests by the > established VLF receivers... > > > f = 6470.100000 Hz > Start time: 05.Jun.2017 13:00:00 UTC > Symbol period: 60 s > Characters: 2 > CRC bits: 3 > Coding 16K21A > Duration: 9h, 20min > Antenna current: ~ 460 mA > > 73, Stefan > > --17435139-1783097161-1496753225=:31885-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Tue Jun 6 15:11:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v56DBStf000936 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 15:11:29 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dIEAO-0005S2-IB for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 14:05:00 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dIEAN-0005Rr-Li for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 14:04:59 +0100 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dIEAK-0008PB-Ns for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 14:04:58 +0100 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22B0920F02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 15:04:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 3whsNL3CmRz10Hw for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 15:04:49 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5936A869.7070307@posteo.de> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2017 15:04:41 +0200 From: DK7FC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <15c7d427aa5-45d-331e2@webprd-m61.mail.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <15c7d427aa5-45d-331e2@webprd-m61.mail.aol.com> X-Scan-Signature: 4998b3eda037fec4e885bebc9a2db934 Subject: Re: VLF: New EbNaut announcement... Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070305010502030000040305" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11902 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070305010502030000040305 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jacek, i confirm. Well done! Markus, the same decode appeared when correcting the phase, as you say. But when the phase is not stable due to propagation, it could result in a phase pattern that can't be corrected, maybe? RN3AUS also reported about decodes after applying small frequency offsets. Worth to investigate... BTW yesterday i have ordered this octo-soundcard for the Raspi! Luis/EA5DOM, what about your VLF RX improvements? :-) 73, Stefan Am 06.06.2017 13:55, schrieb Markus Vester: > Hi Stefan, > > your message was decoded well from DL0AO cardioid data. > > Initially, the best decode appeared with a phase slope, -30 0 0 30. > Entering a frequency offset of one FFT bin (+9.3 uHz), the blue peak > seems to be shifted slightly to the left as expected, but the same > best decode was achieved with flat phase. > > This seems to confirm your earlier observation of a one bin offset. > This is strange, as I've never observed such an offset in earlier > experiments based on shorter data with wider FFT resolution (31 uHz or > more), and I am lacking an explanation. I don't think we can blame > propagation because if there was any Doppler around sunset > this should be negative rather than positive. > > Best 73, > Markus (DF6NM) > > > -----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung----- > Von: DK7FC > An: rsgb_lf_group > Verschickt: Mo, 5. Jun 2017 14:44 > Betreff: VLF: New EbNaut announcement... > > Hi VLF, > > For some local tests i like to transmit the 2 character message that i > already sent on 970 Hz 3 weeks ago. This time on 6470 Hz.... > > Such a short message with sch long symbols may be interesting for > newcomers or various tests by the established VLF receivers... > > > *f = 6470.100000 Hz > Start time: 05.Jun.2017 13:00:00 UTC > Symbol period: 60 s > Characters: 2 > CRC bits: 3 > Coding 16K21A > Duration: 9h, 20min > Antenna current: ~ 460 mA* > > 73, Stefan --------------070305010502030000040305 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jacek, i confirm. Well done!

Markus, the same decode appeared when correcting the phase, as you say. But when the phase is not stable due to propagation, it could result in a phase pattern that can't be corrected, maybe? RN3AUS also reported about decodes after applying small frequency offsets.
Worth to investigate...

BTW yesterday i have ordered this octo-soundcard for the Raspi!

Luis/EA5DOM, what about your VLF RX improvements? :-)

73, Stefan

Am 06.06.2017 13:55, schrieb Markus Vester:
Hi Stefan,

your message was decoded well from DL0AO cardioid data.

Initially, the best decode appeared with a phase slope, -30 0 0 30. Entering a frequency offset of one FFT bin (+9.3 uHz), the blue peak seems to be shifted slightly to the left as expected, but the same best decode was achieved with flat phase.

This seems to confirm your earlier observation of a one bin offset. This is strange, as I've never observed such an offset in earlier experiments based on shorter data with wider FFT resolution (31 uHz or more), and I am lacking an explanation. I don't think we can blame propagation because if there was any Doppler around sunset this should be negative rather than positive. 

Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)


-----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: DK7FC <selberdenken@posteo.de>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: Mo, 5. Jun 2017 14:44
Betreff: VLF: New EbNaut announcement...

Hi VLF,

For some local tests i like to transmit the 2 character message that i already sent on 970 Hz 3 weeks ago. This time on 6470 Hz....

Such a short message with sch long symbols may be interesting for newcomers or various tests by the established VLF receivers...


f = 6470.100000 Hz
Start time: 05.Jun.2017   13:00:00 UTC
Symbol period: 60 s
Characters: 2
CRC bits: 3
Coding 16K21A
Duration: 9h, 20min
Antenna current: ~ 460 mA


73, Stefan
--------------070305010502030000040305-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Tue Jun 6 16:08:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v56E87Wp001235 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 16:08:08 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dIF4V-0005cS-0T for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 15:02:59 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dIF4U-0005cJ-Ck for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 15:02:58 +0100 Received: from porthos.netcom.co.uk ([217.72.171.73]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dIF4R-0000Cz-L7 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 15:02:57 +0100 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=abelian.org Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=abelian.org ; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=8TLtmnm6hdKZB3NcpmPhCGCLJhEWnOQ6Q3VGu2vKpLE=; b=boUh3NSOZMRR+8lpPaSVJ2/9iI GUAdBOPKSxkPfUe8SCi50IBYEX6+DXmlKT7FKCntjYS7TOzNxeK03NMECjG0TzVHWizpiRhKov6OK AqU32rb3Ws+fdUjFXHQBwM3CV/ykMXG2JLrzNZXP2covNyGkr73u+W/7m7xP7OpoR6y4=; Received: from i-194-106-52-83.freedom2surf.net ([194.106.52.83]:41597 helo=pn.abelian.org) by porthos.netcom.co.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dIF4Q-00084Q-91 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 15:02:54 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pn.abelian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94ACB400920 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 14:02:50 +0000 (UTC) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <15c7d427aa5-45d-331e2@webprd-m61.mail.aol.com> <5936A869.7070307@posteo.de> From: Paul Nicholson Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 14:02:50 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5936A869.7070307@posteo.de> X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - porthos.netcom.co.uk X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - blacksheep.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - abelian.org X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: porthos.netcom.co.uk: authenticated_id: catchall@abelian.org X-Authenticated-Sender: porthos.netcom.co.uk: catchall@abelian.org X-Scan-Signature: b77892ad90d0261eaf071f4f6cf31464 Subject: Re: VLF: New EbNaut announcement... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11903 Stefan schrieb: > f = 6470.100000 Hz > Start time: 05.Jun.2017 13:00:00 UTC > Symbol period: 60 s > Characters: 2 > CRC bits: 3 > Coding 16K21A Decoded with Eb/N0 +5.2 dB, constant reference phase. Decode has md5 hash: d2ddea18f00665ce8623e36bd4e3c7c5 carrier S/N: 15.72 dB in 29.8 uHz, -29.54 dB in 1Hz, -63.52 dB in 2.5kHz; No better decode after full phase search in 30 and 15 degree steps. Best decode with a +9.3 uHz offset was 4.1 dB with -120,-135,-135,-150 phase pattern. With -9.3 uHz offset it was 5.1 dB with -15,0,0,15 degrees. Best offset was S/N 15.78 dB at -2.3 uHz, constant reference. -- Paul Nicholson -- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Tue Jun 6 16:28:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID,UPPERCASE_75_100 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v56ESWdR001329 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 16:28:33 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dIFOF-0005kB-4s for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 15:23:23 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dIFOE-0005k2-Hx for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 15:23:22 +0100 Received: from smtp-out-1.talktalk.net ([62.24.135.65]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dIFOB-0000Lk-QU for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 15:23:21 +0100 Received: from mal ([79.69.140.36]) by smtp.talktalk.net with SMTP id IFOAdenHn9tMzIFOAdepmN; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 15:23:18 +0100 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=talktalk.net Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=talktalk.net; s=1605; t=1496758998; bh=BDusIg3qH5h7BY8gQo02b0s5l0Hbbx9caFHcklD8s4s=; h=From:To:Subject:Date; b=OAmhyb/goghlRWx3GVya9L+8X+L5DWwSZqiYZAbhjFM4wICd3Ts10dnWxLcLgcvan Bng3S8uvfk/AVyZNeEv84LjVOlXWfh/BY6Z8UQl4rPaY+h0II1fnEdDIhFNVueejO8 xummzTrqEEfbpHomJRSgug0ce/uzZDnZCIu5g8Yw= X-Originating-IP: [79.69.140.36] X-Spam: 0 X-OAuthority: v=2.2 cv=WOE9ZTkR c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=/v/4FNEVuarnx21866caQA==:117 a=/v/4FNEVuarnx21866caQA==:17 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=Zkisr5VuIGs5oailSXMA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=tILDqHwN6AhMRhxBTWgA:9 a=OtuzyV6ETQ-QknIL:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 Message-ID: <7B754573AABF4B8AA53B143DA78FFA44@mal> From: "mal hamilton" To: "rsgb" , Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 15:23:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfEocGX21+gWOI194dA6nxGPgYJ8RBQrC2xYHxhjUtKib1SGkLZ51gYDrzRqv9mK4oB6Fk80VeU2K1MDoM090CZonTP8HpO+HvgFcA5AOS4o2E/iebKU6 6a6asb2L2gDCQG02U5cqw8JO0E9HxVBa2RYWKMqTEWNFd7jc+FfSNmvhWdJTwO0pXz8HXXp9URrpADvAkFfpkbn0adHkDrb47Sw= X-Scan-Signature: 64437c466041e93ffedda7fb96b22b71 Subject: LF: scanti tpr6000 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01D2DED8.CFE8FA20" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11904 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01D2DED8.CFE8FA20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MF/LF I NEED A CCT DIAGRAM FOR SCANTI TPR 6000 ANTENNA TUNING UNIT SAIT TU6200 FOR INTEREST THIS UNIT CAME FROM VESSEL GXAL/SALLING ALL INFO APPRECIATED DE MAL/G3KEV ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01D2DED8.CFE8FA20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MF/LF
I NEED A CCT DIAGRAM FOR SCANTI TPR 6000 ANTENNA TUNING UNIT SAIT=20 TU6200
 
FOR INTEREST THIS UNIT CAME FROM VESSEL GXAL/SALLING
 
ALL INFO APPRECIATED
 
DE MAL/G3KEV
 
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01D2DED8.CFE8FA20-- From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Tue Jun 6 16:57:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS, T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v56Ev2at001441 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 16:57:03 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dIFqj-0005sC-Ek for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 15:52:49 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dIFqi-0005s3-TA for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 15:52:48 +0100 Received: from mail-wr0-x22a.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22a]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dIFqf-0000TC-JI for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 15:52:47 +0100 Received: by mail-wr0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id v104so55379015wrb.0 for ; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 07:52:45 -0700 (PDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:date:message-id:to:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5O76rB+QKO4PPtZjZ8Eckq/fE2VAbOEFwnowFLUWYbQ=; b=fT2UiA0p7YBrIrC1LD10WGzNcqsjxibG3zVmJEQXNk4Y4wc33Hkn8DZNmTgoFeRb/s BYObGXyez6TK7Y53mU0TqFTkED7Y4C2c+4I9EPVlXlocohxK2c8M8XYfCvZ5qeyp4KnM s38tqfNeajHQ+f5WPtn+SAKgVtDTVKXZW8+9lCYhuXhUOOuGP3juMnlILXD4mocgZrWQ U8j1Wxh0tPZSNqoFvNMqCJn/+r95VAYV75YNEp212qxvcKaFllAtlUHGjjQkxYTUH2JO kK+60mQ5onW75/rXQlXipRJkgLpiyWjP35icl4ykQll+kyvmE0xutEm5cjZkXZC6vaq4 Dx4A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:date:message-id:to:subject:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5O76rB+QKO4PPtZjZ8Eckq/fE2VAbOEFwnowFLUWYbQ=; b=fXlbf20n+btz5kQzfNrksFKSfc4UgWwz/f2lWiRaVjbVQhmnRj6D2O0y7ZtM+sIy8Q uMgglGa/BuvBTID8QvEO6mIBZKMf+Efe9Zfe800w6FtOrFrrep3eorzJyJvNRootxgum r03iky50m0nC4X36wJaNdnetSxSsL1uSFOYqu0U0ItpyqHXfeuC5Y3dSVhX3dKikgpdJ bUwuXjti/9vaGMdccdWe7+E0x/VB7zDkU2yP41RDwK555hBc0f+Ddc83Clq0KP9xj5nA Pb8AGkp39HhFGpH71xQH73h8Cd1ah2puY5Ew/KsKudFoCycCLOLBO8fljRSK+2vToN+4 tr1A== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcD8X6qBeiuq95LVUeNNmgStp4jAwBGGtX1mcKvw7ff4pL5v1Yi+ 5j38hgE1rKGbi3+7 X-Received: by 10.223.160.1 with SMTP id k1mr20869517wrk.102.1496760764036; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 07:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OfficeWin7.lan (82-70-254-222.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk. [82.70.254.222]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b43sm16530191wrd.40.2017.06.06.07.52.43 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 06 Jun 2017 07:52:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Wilson X-Google-Original-From: Chris Wilson Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 15:52:42 +0100 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <202163093.20170606155242@gmail.com> To: mal hamilton In-Reply-To: <7B754573AABF4B8AA53B143DA78FFA44@mal> References: <7B754573AABF4B8AA53B143DA78FFA44@mal> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scan-Signature: 0a4643e586472c13187d293ec5d096c2 Subject: Re: LF: scanti tpr6000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11905 Hello Mal, Anything here for it? https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/SkantiRadio/files/TRP6000/ Tuesday, June 6, 2017, 3:23:12 PM, you wrote: > > > > > MF/LF > I NEED A CCT DIAGRAM FOR SCANTI TPR 6000 ANTENNA TUNING UNIT SAIT TU6200 > > FOR INTEREST THIS UNIT CAME FROM VESSEL GXAL/SALLING > > ALL INFO APPRECIATED > > DE MAL/G3KEV > -- Best regards, Chris mailto:dead_fets@gmail.com From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Tue Jun 6 17:46:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS, T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v56FkkQM001709 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 17:46:47 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dIGb9-00061r-Sx for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 16:40:47 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dIGaN-00061d-Ka for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 16:39:59 +0100 Received: from mail-wm0-x232.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c09::232]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dIGaJ-0000gN-6W for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 16:39:56 +0100 Received: by mail-wm0-x232.google.com with SMTP id 7so100408241wmo.1 for ; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 08:39:55 -0700 (PDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:date:message-id:to:subject:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=2CLktlsj2xtKN7TK1A7Sopl+3SrxWGt5vfg0P8A3Pjc=; b=Zj53n/VmgJUrm80A0sabtheuPAyOw6Peq9NCSSW8IPLOdpN5V4l1gH1Uzh7tHR81YV i6/Fmy/m/ku/w6+180aU1dNwJH/WJKOF5mAyhaLDhxFXt+xr3WbQ/XH7mO+Gfvc+BuNJ WNRCVFIKLmWB9TUCUPotvXH+WPUIbtYR5S/HHk/nXTFP+koyxpRp4oOHx/iTUmsOqVaR C27f0dI0eLKbQqWaWARb8+xpBdE2E1eWl1oEeC2aoIknoAQVvrxEgnXtYuqgOVKgIcgf HnnJv1KtTPJ9FyzJcsE/p5hqkAdwX5z3QOYEBjfhSnBQSUn2v0JxCkA6EwbF8qSZJrmM E92g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:date:message-id:to:subject:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=2CLktlsj2xtKN7TK1A7Sopl+3SrxWGt5vfg0P8A3Pjc=; b=puqYk6wTUG8lHirIh2jUFOrQW2WK6v+gQbez3+Nqg6Hgcw3XoyHlMLEzhmFkR1Y1hh lJ5/0Opk5/xFsD0gUAUC363ImBUpbJRa/2YPhK4pXty4Bu4OJkHC1nyBgvPlT1hWs9v+ LGoARLJ/9PO534kCFHWzDgnY+wLqGz3stxZkKU3FboL3CuKkuGvWquIX0h5BYYbNsTHf FxdSPHT754tW7f3xaF2H0oTobEO6vMXlPIZVRKDczLviZQeKpTkRWtJfIrcMsWxDB/ic 914d8rjI/bJ7IT8g7n9wxlaVgiE3spk3puOiOo2azVdsKqByKulZQfOhju+BcbY8iZ8m yqJQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcBKle726V3Vs7md7ExEUUQmKl3BZn1uH2Nm353bQ4YNl8U9Nwqx /JQEu7I94EmI1cZ6 X-Received: by 10.28.41.193 with SMTP id p184mr11907175wmp.86.1496763594138; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 08:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OfficeWin7.lan (82-70-254-222.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk. [82.70.254.222]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r186sm11563937wmr.30.2017.06.06.08.39.53 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 06 Jun 2017 08:39:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Wilson X-Google-Original-From: Chris Wilson Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 16:39:52 +0100 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <953388818.20170606163952@gmail.com> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scan-Signature: e90dcb17768c7e768f13e0721cc1c0c7 Subject: LF: Decoupling linear PSU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11906 Hello LF'ers, I have had a few issues with my lovely old Farnell H60/50 linear bench power supply. It'll do 60V @ 50A but I suspect it's last couple of uncontrolled output voltage failures may have been caused by RF getting into it, maybe up the output leads, maybe elsewhere. The manual makes mention of using caps of "a suitable value" across the output, or each output pin to ground, when used to power "transient loads" ; it's far from clear what's meant. The -ve floats relative to chassis ground. What do people recommend as a means of stopping RF getting in via the + and - output leads please? It has SCR control on the transformers primary to keep the voltage drop across the huge pass transistor tunnel down to around 8V, this seems to go haywire at random times when powering my TX, and the 2N3055's don't like 103V into them. Worst case scenario should be 73V, but I am pretty sure SCR control fails and the secondary rises to its full potential. Thanks. -- Best regards, Chris mailto:dead_fets@gmail.com From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Tue Jun 6 17:56:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS, T_DKIM_INVALID,UPPERCASE_50_75 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v56Fu5tK001756 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 17:56:06 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dIGma-00069g-5V for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 16:52:36 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dIGmZ-00069X-N3 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 16:52:35 +0100 Received: from mail-wr0-x22f.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22f]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dIGmW-0000km-Kk for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 16:52:34 +0100 Received: by mail-wr0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id v104so56159686wrb.0 for ; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 08:52:32 -0700 (PDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:date:message-id:to:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=jVVV12PHbWt295v0IIbYEUmjQ6/XznZxNTiBm54jomA=; b=YgpvTf3VAeRMZX97Lq7CmDBdfQMf9sRuKSPEjIuAnNvpyTmJPS47wDdDjcbpN8k7Kl Jxvh8+ys6R0M5JI9iTClzia1Q5JwSgMuL5vueoHBe1ibdpeq3wZ3sEQ9TYZjrvQrnQXS RXhvpfUH+SOc8RQk86kuO3Ya0wMKvgQ5wC6IJxXnogf1nG4ngGyUpzLGEuYUna9B3+VQ JCH9c6VPEwMqnh/GajSX32BjLZL4umjXujRkD/pwqBxhvrC9vGnCAAz2n1EWTI+dzjTY tEcB9TgSLSgaeVPGha9th74OI4GowBsjSxHc6LDwNOoCp7q4q+cNDCErAAQAZl/iNLdc PWVA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:date:message-id:to:subject:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jVVV12PHbWt295v0IIbYEUmjQ6/XznZxNTiBm54jomA=; b=TfK05Jd8Rsgou12Rdk+42fWWh0/8+R/gkg/7wgeoKI9d2wtsvqqYQnHIG50tLeAWV9 PesdaCrWFE9C+5mRMk1U7LCV74/rk7ma8FdeLvjBPvNotvrpWUUVWXUVfBV5evfybm8o kDvCJeZsn2H7ZCL7VbZe1UQMMnJAHELaBrP2VaM+Xc3yw89QU81XBvRdIpI0T2D3w1gR 1ySXdpBAdTaWfaZMhor0bup2aycfMZVIb/X1xPF6iKPkU7AFJ4oLK2y6+g4Hge13j5FH lzmjdXW4xAfn/qmgFy2R+1o6hBK5GQsejdFme4+Zd1b0r/PsyRS5V6JpHmgIVCfQqQcY biWg== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcDKdSXn++Bj3uNFFRhKrfPDha++Zgo+21jaC8B/7dnqx5wz/szd FUaLscH6w6chfAoK X-Received: by 10.223.142.150 with SMTP id q22mr17851579wrb.180.1496764351142; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 08:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OfficeWin7.lan (82-70-254-222.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk. [82.70.254.222]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v62sm11454377wmv.15.2017.06.06.08.52.30 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 06 Jun 2017 08:52:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Wilson X-Google-Original-From: Chris Wilson Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 16:52:29 +0100 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <355747237.20170606165229@gmail.com> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: <7B754573AABF4B8AA53B143DA78FFA44@mal> References: <7B754573AABF4B8AA53B143DA78FFA44@mal> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scan-Signature: 7001055fa59a9c23b9831ea6d317a074 Subject: Re: LF: scanti tpr6000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11907 Hello Mal, Is this what you need "Antenna Coupling Unit" near the end? From 2E0ILY https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/SkantiRadio/files/TRP6000/ Tuesday, June 6, 2017, 3:23:12 PM, you wrote: > > > > > MF/LF > I NEED A CCT DIAGRAM FOR SCANTI TPR 6000 ANTENNA TUNING UNIT SAIT TU6200 > > FOR INTEREST THIS UNIT CAME FROM VESSEL GXAL/SALLING > > ALL INFO APPRECIATED > > DE MAL/G3KEV > -- Best regards, Chris mailto:dead_fets@gmail.com From owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Tue Jun 6 18:32:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS,UPPERCASE_50_75 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=3 Fuz1=3 Fuz2=3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v56GWK3X002026 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 18:32:21 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dIHKn-0006Ie-Eu for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 17:27:57 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dIHKk-0006IV-T0 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 17:27:54 +0100 Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([212.227.17.10]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dIHKh-0000uL-Kn for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 17:27:53 +0100 Received: from [192.168.2.100] ([217.82.31.146]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue102 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MHGPz-1d4pDJ10kN-00E9Fr for ; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 18:27:50 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <7B754573AABF4B8AA53B143DA78FFA44@mal> From: Peter Message-ID: <9c63bed5-50b1-72e4-67c0-81e1ba36be17@df3lp.de> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 18:27:49 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7B754573AABF4B8AA53B143DA78FFA44@mal> X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:8Atlj4sIclZu5YxRGI/pzyW9PSC0LKgnQ+W5gctesLPUNaiQGfS 04AqCP8EA4YD36q7hc6JR5AluBt0ZlpYnivSWLSp6TuJkKmIFYlO+pctsaCf2ED8tCh6ks/ /0PpbMSuqvqUVWL7hquf1fOvR8vCBXjXcl3lJvACqmN+DAQLRzdN3quPJGl38W7Envo8lUb v7tSUquPyLRK28hB4zXjw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:DqslOaXZ6nc=:eXSeiPOSPQMW1J5dHReCWT ZdnDY4x1ApCkVbcJ+cGCtE4B9wmpG4AHLUhWsgSr2goXMgAU6WTyrEicxWsTTa2p3gYLL76Sr SE6KbXMNu9lqKZqIPcKpSoT7xLYUq6fRixMpSmBvt/NjBVRdMsI+Prcz5J7n1qCGHrkGgI43L dcDvgr1aYE+9gsYWSP9vvpXT8Z/RISnpudJvTls7HKsA0OGFRPAKQFMfjqa7oT9s4puIjOwHx oUvQZ1NOkT+QDs8CEtLPY6p7in2oFTs/uDewmqJ0pVOYtMjCJEm3MJsPUMbuBZcICNFpp1vsr 74DR05MxpbMgRQ2UAqp6IGzyEjU1dhnpIeYIA5kWAHl5+q0DFllq48OrTvKvYN5OW9YyarW13 bkOj9gI22ZZrvskAbDuE0ytgNEKUV8vh0EnqR1QEin6Tl9t1TWSKt76Q1y8RAJazL8XRM5Cn8 jNpZ6e/X++P6tMPtHK1VcyNJCvlISYvkB6N4HIufGjbcIJbU1nXEHC0Keh8AjF35I7t5TPemi xwi0HATjL0vjCrTxSj1Cim+GMj9xv75bOkZ2B+jYetKISDN4ekaVjt9dBKSJ6mCKl0agNk6ED kNf9VbMkIHn05n7no7f3AFiKIKzEuXgH549pE2TGXB/xfawTFvDCwZLIrENqUzeSuN3XINdqt YlikesSFSd3eXj1wizJuGKRuD63D0Mk/VAbiImDkI8Fe+5Cca8eoSf1j89o3Z1NmfldyDk3YG Xv6dxvojLkcQxRcR X-Scan-Signature: 0b2d339ae1d48966556dfb6ad64e2bce Subject: Re: LF: scanti tpr6000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_