From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24557 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2002 18:23:45 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 18:23:45 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 15638 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2002 18:23:46 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 18:23:46 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Zzoz-0002wZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 21:11:49 +0100 Received: from imo-d02.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.34]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Zzox-0002wU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 21:11:47 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id l.6a.23b88f69 (24895) for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 14:19:45 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <6a.23b88f69.2a798441@aol.com> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 14:19:45 EDT Subject: Re: LF: Droitwich carrier To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------070304070908080006050505" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows XP DE sub 50 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070304070908080006050505 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello group,

An analysis of amplitude as effective voltage and phase with SpecLab produced this graph today (aplologies for embedding it in HTML format):


The signal was received in USB (RX tuned to 196 kHz), digitized at 11025 samples/second, multiplied with ~2000 Hz (theoretically) and then decimated by 64 with a lot of cascaded halfband lowpass filters to get an effective RX bandwidth of just below 86 Hz.
Both amplitude (red) and phase (green) are calculated from the decimated complex signal. Unfortunately the SW does not (yet) support different scaling of the phase axis.
The carrier amplitude has obviously got nothing to do with the weak phase modulation. The lowest "audio sidebands" are outside of this software receiver's passband.

Regards,
 Wolf DL4YHF.


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Raw+OQpAtOb2ttaN61HnitzOkja4onXmb437zu1yE7X/M2xpvvlabD43Z97s6mtmi8uSIvW6 bWWrbrVL3vB6V6/+eSXud8F7XPIuxLzIkyUtVyVdSHqUvnHNbVuxO1KDEvi/owWuS4k71c6K d7gVVm6CTylfn4p0wiUGZoW7y9IVLzPFBY6mKM9LyhAvasHiJPGJd3vio1aYxT5ep4sdBmNY sg+ORj4ybDZJ2x0z2aQ9/jGUsfphA39tLjRWlZLpGOQth06EjfwymMNMllRa+cpmPjOa06zm NSuKymxen8rELOc507nOdr4znvOs5z3zuc9+DvOQC/vmgKls0IY+NKITregIBijGElx0q+QF 6UlTutKWVvR0HH1pLMsGyZ7+NKhDLepRk7rUpj41qk3daND8udV35ogfYy3rWdO61rb+vjWu c63rXfO6177+tay/tOlhE7vYxj72pAWE7GUzu9nOfjbFUJXqaVO72ta+Nrazre1tczvbXgoL tMMt7nGT29nf/kq5063udbObzefeZ7vjLe9507ti7y5zvfOt733zm3eGQne/Ay7wgafbkcLG N8ETrvCFV7oubgM3wyMu8Ymv2eEPBzjFM67xjUPQ4bORDsdDLvKRr8rjVkYVyVOu8pX7aIIX hzfLYy7zkJu8zCifOc5zzvCag+3mOv850PXNc4P/G+ZBPzrSC57kpZ9c00l/OtTNzXSXv9zV Vr861rOu9a1zvete/3rXXaPsqJO97OUeu9nTrvZle6Xbbn8fO9zjLve5073ubwc23vOu973z ve9+/zvgAy/4wc86IAA7 --------------070304070908080006050505-- From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12654 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2002 18:06:31 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 18:06:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 2168 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2002 18:06:33 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 18:06:33 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZzRY-0002sF-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 20:47:36 +0100 Received: from mta1-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.41]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZzRX-0002sA-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 20:47:35 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.232.234]) by mta1-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020731175605.ZUZS19938.mta1-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:56:05 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c238b5$46736980$eae8fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020730111943.00a25240@POP3.freeler.nl> Subject: Re: LF: Re: Re: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:15:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "M.J.Powell" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 2:07 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: Re: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX > snip > > > Remarkable is Droitwich at 198kHz. There the carrier goes > > downward during modulation! > > I used to get that with my old AM Tx in the 50's! Cause: Lack of grid > drive and improper loading/tuning. I wonder which it is now... You are correct, it is no doubt still the same today. Adjusting those old transmitters could be difficult, maybe make a bad job worse. Downward modulation on AM transmitters was considered poor engineering amongst radio amateurs in the early years, and poor CW even worse. These days some do not know what either Downward mod or CW means!!!! G3KEV > > Mike > -- > M.J.Powell > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9211 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2002 16:02:10 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 16:02:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 29704 invoked by uid 10001); 31 Jul 2002 16:06:59 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 16:06:59 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZxaX-0002ed-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:48:45 +0100 Received: from darius.concentric.net ([207.155.198.79]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZxaW-0002eY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:48:44 +0100 Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.198.71]) by darius.concentric.net [Concentric SMTP Routing 1.0] id g6VFvA227865 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:57:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jka ([208.37.242.34]) by newman.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id LAA21601; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:57:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002601c238ac$2dc7e2c0$09dc9384@jka> From: "John Andrews" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9B57@mail.dstl.gov.uk> Subject: LF: Re: Droitwich carrier Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:06:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > A 'perfect' 100% modulated AM transmission carrying a sinewave should have > 4.8 dB peak to mean, so what mechanism can account for 6.9dB ? This > certainly does seem to reinforce the idea that the carrier reduces with > amplitude. Here in the U.S., positive peak levels of 125% are allowed. The maximum negative peak level is obviously 100%, the point at which the carrier goes away. Not sure what the regulations are over there, but the asymmetry might explain the readings. And I'll echo some earlier comments, here. I used to be in charge of a 5 kW PDM rig that had very little carrier shift with "old fashioned" audio processing ahead of it. But with an Optimod, it used to buck quite a bit. No amount of twiddling with the tilt or other settings on the Optimod would get rid of it. John Andrews, W1TAG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10357 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2002 15:09:16 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 15:09:16 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 19840 invoked by uid 10001); 31 Jul 2002 15:13:53 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 15:13:53 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZwlA-0002WX-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:55:40 +0100 Received: from relay.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.49]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Zwl9-0002WS-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:55:39 +0100 Received: (qmail 4438 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2002 16:04:11 +0100 Received: from butterfly.mod.uk (HELO warlock.dstl.gov.uk) (192.5.29.10) by relay.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 16:04:11 +0100 Message-ID: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9B57@mail.dstl.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: "LF Group \(E-mail\)" Subject: LF: Droitwich carrier Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 16:03:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Took a few seconds of the signal from Droitwich with speech modulation, downconverted to 0 - 6kHz and saved as a .WAV file. I already had some software that analyses a .WAV file for maximum and minimum peaks, calculates the RMS and some other analysis functions not relevant here. The Droitwich recording showed maximum positive and negative peaks (amplitude, not power) in the region of 6600 (out of 32786 maximum) and an RMS value of 2995, giving a peak to mean ratio of 6.9dB. (technically, peak to RMS, but in power terms equal to peak to mean) Bear in mind that this peak amplitude was the highest single one recorded in several seconds of audio. To compare, a sinewave has a 3dB peak to mean and this software does give exactly that figure for a .WAV test file containing a pure sinewave. A 'perfect' 100% modulated AM transmission carrying a sinewave should have 4.8 dB peak to mean, so what mechanism can account for 6.9dB ? This certainly does seem to reinforce the idea that the carrier reduces with amplitude. Andy G4JNT "This e-mail is intended for the recipient only. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, or rely upon this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail." "Recipients should note that all e-mail traffic on MOD systems is subject to monitoring and auditing." From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6090 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2002 14:51:38 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 14:51:38 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 5721 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2002 14:51:42 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 14:51:42 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZwU0-0002TZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:37:56 +0100 Received: from cmailenv4.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.56]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZwTx-0002TU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:37:54 +0100 Received: from [62.21.167.108] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV4.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17Zuk1-0004VZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 14:46:21 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020731164610.00a4ee90@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 16:48:07 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: Fwd: RE: Downward modulation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Passed on to the reflector at the request of CO2KK.

73, Dick, PA0SE

X-From_: coro@ip.etecsa.cu Wed Jul 31 14:28:14 2002
Envelope-to: d.w.rollema@freeler.nl
From: "Prof. Arnaldo Coro Antich" <coro@ip.etecsa.cu>
To: <d.w.rollema@freeler.nl>
Subject: RE: Downward modulation
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:28:30 -0300
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000

Dear amigo Dick:
I was following your observations about the
high power AM broadcast transmitters in
Europe with great attention, and will pass
along some comments...
1. BBC needs to hire someone that knows
how to work with AM high power broadcast
transmitters urgently, as it seems the most
capable people have retired or changed jobs
after the Merlin Communications fiasco
2. DAM, Dynamic Amplitude Modulation
may perhaps save a little of the electricity
bill, but is not worth at all from the quality
point of view
3. PSM , pulse step modulation AM transmitters
are difficult to adjust, hard to understand for the
engineers at the site, and generate lots of
problems due to the switching transients that
happen with the SCRs or IGBT's whichever
the particular transmitter uses
4. PWM pulse width modulation AM transmitters
are a bit easier to tame... but they are also
troublesome
5. Downward modulation usually is an indication
of poor power supply regulation, something
that at some sites using several transmitters
carrying the same audio  ( on different frequencies to cover different
areas ) can be a real problem... BECAUSE dynamic regulation of the three
phase
AC power source then also becomes an
unsourmountable problem...
6. In my humble opinion after 45 years of
practical experience with AM transmitters from
1 watt up to 500 kW power level, there is no
match to a well designed high power transmitter using high level class B
plate modulation ( classic ) with lots of feedback, and a properly
designed and well matched Class C final
amplifier ( after 1965 or so, so called Class D
amplifiers enhancing the conduction angle of
the Class C stage by using a third and fifth
harmonic waveshaping circuits became popular,
reaching efficiencies that are pretty high indeed,
but also generating other problems )
I believe that downward modulation of ANY
AM A3 standard double sideband plus 100 percent carrier transmission is an
engineering
problem that demands immediate attention.
Modulation meters or monitors, usually have
a SET CARRIER meter, and any carrier shift
is easily seen on that meter, that is an essential
instrument to monitor transmitter performance all the time.
Notice that I have not said a word here about
AUDIO PROCESSING of any type whatsoever !
That's another story...
Among the interesting things I have came across
while doing field engineering work , are AM
transmitting antennas that have very narrow
bandwidth ( poorly designed and implemented
antenna tuning and matching systems  ) something that may prove particularly
interesting on the LF AM broadcast band, where I have
never worked, as here in ITU Region II it
is not used.
Please re-post to the LF list, as I can't do it
from my machine...
BTW, my good friend G3LDO while visiting
here in Cuba was the person that gave me
how to subscribe to the LF list.
I have a pair of 813's in the works for LF work,
but my QTH is a very poor location for
a LF transmitting antenna.
Anyway, we are talking to the PTT here
about the 136 kHz band, and have high hopes
of receiving soon a permit to operate with
some kind of experimental license, before
the band is officially approved and added to
our rules and regulations .
73 and DX
YOur friend in Havana
Arnie Coro
CO2KK
Host of Dxers Unlimited
Radio Havana Cuba
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26771 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2002 14:13:05 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 14:13:05 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 2508 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2002 14:12:57 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 14:12:56 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Zvu0-0002Ns-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:00:44 +0100 Received: from relay.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.49]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Zvtz-0002Nn-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:00:43 +0100 Received: (qmail 17826 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2002 15:09:14 +0100 Received: from butterfly.mod.uk (HELO warlock.dstl.gov.uk) (192.5.29.10) by relay.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 15:09:14 +0100 Message-ID: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9B56@mail.dstl.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: "LF Group \(E-mail\)" Subject: LF: Droitwich Carrier Curiouser and curiouse r, correction Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:08:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Correction :-( I looked at the Droitwich carrier again after reading Jim's posting. Using the same setup as described there definitely is a dB or two of variation - had Gram on 90dB dynamic range yesterday which explains why I didn't see anything then. Try this if you have a suitable Rx : Select CW mode with a wide bandwidth to encompass all the AM signal - like 6kHz. Then set the BFO to 3kHz, or half the IF bandwidth, so the entire transmission gives an audio output ranging from DC to 6kHz with the carrier appearing as a 3kHz tone in the middle. Look at this downconverted signal on Gram using 22kHz sampling at 512 or 1024 FFT size, viewing the line spectrum, not the colour waterfall / spectrogram. Any voice/music sidebands appear equally, either side of the carrier exactly as AM theory predicts they will, BUT the amplitude does indeed drop slightly as the sidebands appear. It almost suggests the transmitter is adjusted to give a constant output power - there's a thought ! One way to check would be measure the total power in the signal in a 6kHz (better still 8kHz) bandwidth and plot this out over a few seconds. Not unsurprisingly, none of the PD software available includes this option so I've recorded a few seconds of .WAV file of this downconverted signal and can have a go at processing that. It just may be my imagination, but the power appeared to reduce a fraction of a second BEFORE the sidebands popped up. This is at variance with Jim's plot which appeared to show simultaneity. But if he was receiving the carrier in a narrow bandwidth there would be a filter delay which might account for the discrepancy. My technique delays all components equally BTW, the WJ Rx is a superb piece of kit for monitoring and measuring RF. DC to 30MHz coverage with around 60 different IF bandwidths possible from 56Hz to 16kHz. Not that user friendly, though, if all you want to do is to actually listen to the signals. Only trouble is, the WJ-8711 costs several thousand pounds and is subject to export restrictions from the US ! Must get back to doing some proper work now. Andy G4JNT > Dear LF Group, > > I looked at the Droitwich signal using Spectrum Lab last night - the phase > modulated signal occupies a BW of about 80Hz centered on the carrier - > however, measuring the carrier level in 100Hz Bandwidth instead of 25Hz > made no difference to the fluctuations in carrier level, so that blew my > theory of yesterday out of the water... > "This e-mail is intended for the recipient only. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, or rely upon this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail." "Recipients should note that all e-mail traffic on MOD systems is subject to monitoring and auditing." From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16218 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2002 11:51:41 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 11:51:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 5410 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2002 11:51:45 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 11:51:44 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Zthq-00026K-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 14:40:02 +0100 Received: from d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.5]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Zthp-00025s-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 14:40:01 +0100 Received: from d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.166.84.148]) by d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com (1.0.0) with ESMTP id MAA90254 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:50:07 +0100 Received: from usa.net (ss8.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.73]) by d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.3/NCO/VER6.3) with ESMTP id g6VBmLrZ035356 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:48:22 +0100 Message-ID: <3D47CE2F.B15B9C93@usa.net> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:46:55 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Transmissions from Donebach etc. References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020731131032.009f66e0@POP3.freeler.nl> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dick Rollema wrote:
As to the "downward modulation" of Droitwich: I found the same effect on the BBC World Service at about 648kHz.
Bad power supply regulation ?

73  Alberto  I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24997 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2002 11:40:38 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 11:40:38 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 26364 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2002 11:40:40 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 11:40:40 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZtXC-00023X-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 14:29:02 +0100 Received: from cmailenv3.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.55]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZtXB-00023S-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 14:29:01 +0100 Received: from [62.21.148.22] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV3.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17ZrnJ-0002pR-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:37:33 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020731131032.009f66e0@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:41:34 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: Transmissions from Donebach etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE,

Many thanks to Andrew Talbot, James Moritz, Dave Brown, Alan Melia, Dave Pick, Markus Vester, Steve Dove and Ray Soifer for their reactions on my field strength measurement of Donebach and Droitwich.
I am happy that my findings have been confirmed by others.
As to the "downward modulation" of Droitwich: I found the same effect on the BBC World Service at about 648kHz.
The increase  of the carrier during brief moments of silence can be easily seen, not only on a selective voltmeter, but also on an oscilloscope that displays the signal. I checked that with the scope connected to the  30kHz IF of the W & G PSM-5 and also the 455kHz IF of my  pre-war HRO (with 2.5V heater valves!).

But you don't need sophisticated equipment at all. A receiver with an S-meter also shows the downward fluctuations on the BBC transmitters and the upward ones on Donebach,  Dutch 747kHz and several other stations on MF.

I don't think the phase modulation of some of the transmitters plays a role; when you listen to the transmission it is easily observed that the fluctuations follow the amplitude of the modulating signal.

73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26288 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2002 11:12:25 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 11:12:25 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 474 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2002 11:12:16 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 31 Jul 2002 11:12:15 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Zsv3-0001xa-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:49:37 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Zsv2-0001xV-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:49:36 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17ZrBA-0002tc-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:58:08 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ZrB9-0001kL-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:58:07 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020731103235.00ac54b8@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:58:06 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: Droitwich Carrier In-reply-to: <000601c2380d$7739c440$35337bd5@main> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------030902050100030107020403" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030902050100030107020403 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear LF Group, I looked at the Droitwich signal using Spectrum Lab last night - the phase modulated signal occupies a BW of about 80Hz centered on the carrier - however, measuring the carrier level in 100Hz Bandwidth instead of 25Hz made no difference to the fluctuations in carrier level, so that blew my theory of yesterday out of the water... However, I tried another experiment comparing the carrier level (from the SPM-19 with 25Hz BW) with the demodulated audio from a separate receiver. The attached jpeg shows that the carrier level (top trace) really does go down as the modulation (bottom trace) increases, as discussed by others. The variation is about 2-3dB between silence and full modulation. So now the mystery is - why does G4JNT's W-J receiver show a constant level? 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rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1933 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 23:45:55 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 23:45:55 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 26615 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 23:45:57 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 23:45:57 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZiNQ-0000uS-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 02:34:12 +0100 Received: from imo-d09.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.41]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZiNP-0000uN-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 02:34:11 +0100 Received: from RaySoifer@cs.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.86.1e10d725 (3980) for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:42:06 -0400 (EDT) From: RaySoifer@cs.com Message-ID: <86.1e10d725.2a787e4e@cs.com> Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:42:06 EDT Subject: Re: LF: Droitwich Carrier To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 6.0 for Windows US sub 10511 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hi,

I have no AM broadcast experience, having only been chief engineer of an FM (but not AM) BC station in the 1960s, but from my amateur experience, any form of controlled-carrier transmission I've ever seen reduced the carrier when the audio was at low level, not when it was high.  This "downward modulation" that has been measured by several observers would almost certainly imply a degree of overmodulation on audio peaks.  That could result from a number of causes: insufficient grid drive on the RF stages, too much audio relative to the carrier, or if compression is being used, an incorrect setting of the maximum audio level.

I was in England last week, and Droitwich sounded fine on my LF BC receiver, but that doesn't prove anything re overmodulation.

73,

Ray, W2RS From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17319 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 23:30:49 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 23:30:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 5392 invoked by uid 10001); 30 Jul 2002 23:35:25 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 23:35:25 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Zi8U-0000ru-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 02:18:46 +0100 Received: from smtp.comcast.net ([24.153.64.2]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Zi8T-0000rp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 02:18:45 +0100 Received: from Charlie_Drake (pcp01445902pcs.lebnon01.pa.comcast.net [68.83.65.209]) by mtaout02.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 13 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0300CTH54LV8@mtaout02.icomcast.net> for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:26:43 -0400 From: "Steve Dove" Subject: Re: LF: Droitwich Carrier In-reply-to: <000601c2380d$7739c440$35337bd5@main> To: "LF-Group" Message-ID: Organization: d s p MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Opera 6.04 build 1135 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Alan, As far as I know the senders at Droitwich were Macaroni 'PULSAM's, their trendy name for PWM modulation, and installed some 20 years ago; these essentially are a whacking great class-D audio amp making wobbly HT for a class-C PA. This is of course is quite different to the carrier tube / peak tube Doherty arrangement of the animals at Orford. (Funnily enough I was there just a couple of weeks ago; that whole place is a story waiting to be told, isn't it?) There might be a developing fault, and they might not be aware; it could be worth a 'phone call to Beeb Engineering / NTL / Merlin or whomever runs Droitwich this week. One feels like a real geeky anorak calling a 'For Real' organisation and telling them something like that; however, a year or so ago I went to listen to Beeb WS from Antigua on 5975 with the rig I had 'Spectran' hanging off (after looking for you lot) - lo and behold the carrier was waving up and down by 10Hz every 45 seconds or so - synthesiser trouble. I talked to Merlin, who arguably rightly regarded me as the worst kind of nutter, but they did fix it. And yes, Virginia, the Beeb do compress and EQ the snot out of everything, just like anyone else, even Radio 4, but that shouldn't effect carrier shift. Cheers, Steve W3EEE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 38 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 22:43:50 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 22:43:50 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 24504 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 22:43:40 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 22:43:40 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZhDI-0000lL-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 01:19:40 +0100 Received: from imo-m06.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.161]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZhDH-0000lG-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 01:19:39 +0100 Received: from MarkusVester@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.154.11b53939 (4380) for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:27:56 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkusVester@aol.com Message-ID: <154.11b53939.2a786cec@aol.com> Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:27:56 EDT Subject: Re: LF: Re: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 72 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Dick and the group, >> I am pretty sure Donebach uses some form of controlled carrier modulation, apart from the phase modulation mentioned by Walter.<< Yes, DLF does use "dynamic AM" modulation, with up to 3dB carrier reduction at low audio levels. The variable carrier level is generated along with the audio in the control circuit of the Telefunken PANTEL switched-mode modulator stage, operating at 54kHz. During normal daytime operation, both transmitters are combined, and the carrier power varies from about 250 to 500 kW. The two-mast antenna system then has a directional minimum of nominally minus 3dB /monopole towards Romania (SW, abt. 110°), and a gain of about 2dB to the NW. So with only one TX operational (125...250kW), one would expect 200...400kW EMRP towards the Netherlands. - As Walter has said, at night regularly a single TX is used, and the antenna system is fed differently to provide a deeper null with -10dB vs. +2dB directivities. 73 de Markus, DF6NM From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4707 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 21:38:13 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 21:38:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 17659 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 21:38:15 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 21:38:15 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZgNa-0000f5-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:26:14 +0100 Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.93]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZgNZ-0000f0-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:26:14 +0100 Received: from host217-36-1-195.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([217.36.1.195] helo=dellboy) by rhenium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17Zedi-00072N-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:34:46 +0100 Message-ID: <000401c23810$f71b7840$1700a8c0@home> From: "Dave Pick" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000601c2380d$7739c440$35337bd5@main> Subject: LF: Re: Droitwich Carrier Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:34:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Chaps. Modern broadcast transmitters can be set to reduce the carrier when there is no mod, to save power, or raise the carrier to preserve a silent background in the face of interference. As for compression, the BBC have used Optimod for years as much as 16dB on AM, who told you they didn't? Just for the record the BBC don't operate these transmitters anymore, it's Crown Castle who do. Anyone out there in Crown Castle who can tell us how Droitwich is set up? (or is it just bust...?) Cheers Dave G3YXM. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:08 PM Subject: LF: Droitwich Carrier > Hi all, I was fascinated by Dick's measurements I decided I would swing the > radio onto Droitwich and switch through the filters. > > The measurement was made at 2015z tonight Tuesday.....a science program > about George Best's liver!! So the modulation was all male speech. > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5539 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 21:16:24 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 21:16:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 3924 invoked by uid 10001); 30 Jul 2002 21:21:12 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 21:21:11 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Zfzp-0000bx-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:01:41 +0100 Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.81]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Zfzn-0000bI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:01:39 +0100 Received: from host213-123-51-53.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.123.51.53] helo=main) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17ZeFv-0005ps-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:10:11 +0100 Message-ID: <000601c2380d$7739c440$35337bd5@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: Droitwich Carrier Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:08:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, I was fascinated by Dick's measurements I decided I would swing the radio onto Droitwich and switch through the filters. The measurement was made at 2015z tonight Tuesday.....a science program about George Best's liver!! So the modulation was all male speech. I switched through my filters with the AOR 7030+ on AM with the filters centered on the carrier. The RX had 20dB of front end attenuation and the IF gain was substantially reduced (AGC OFF) to give a three-quater scale reading on the WB mV meter. Measurement was made on the 455kHz IF output with a B & K 2426 wideband millviltmeter in the "Fast" mode (timeconstant around 0.5seconds I believe) I did not have time to lug a scope in from the workshop. Filter band is:- 300Hz 500Hz 2100Hz 3700Hz 6000Hz 9500Hz In all positions the needle deflected downwards by 1.5 to a max of 2.5 dB on speech peaks. I confirm Dick's comments this is definitely "downward Modulation" The result was confirmed using both the Mean and RMS detectors on the B & K.. Next the wider filters were offset to accept just one sideband (much better quality), and the WB mV meter still defected downwards, by about the same amount , maybe a little less. >From my rememberance of a visit to OrfordNess (BBC WS) the 500kW transmitters there have two valves connected by a quarter wave "lumped component" line. One valve handles the "bottom half" of the waveform and the second valve provides the power for the positive modulation peaks only. Maybe they are using an old valve (Bargain from Proops ??) in the second slot or it is not quite adjusted properly. .....or else maybe the compressor is working overtime. The BEEB dont admit to using compression but they jolly well do. I think we have some Stateside lads with BC knowledge who may be able to fill in the gaps. I am probably 200kms South East of Droitwich (I havent checked) That was an interesting ten minutes, I very nearly got interested in listening to the descriptions of the likely state Best's liver !! I think I could use a drink !! Tea of course! Cheers de Alan G3NYK JO02PB alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22844 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 17:51:54 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 17:51:54 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 26442 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 17:51:56 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 17:51:56 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Zcc3-0000Cz-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:24:55 +0100 Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.85]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Zcc0-0000Cu-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:24:52 +0100 Received: from pickmere.demon.co.uk ([158.152.117.143]) by anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #2) id 17Zas7-0001Vx-0U for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:33:24 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:07:12 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "M.J.Powell" Subject: Re: LF: Re: Re: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020730111943.00a25240@POP3.freeler.nl> In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020730111943.00a25240@POP3.freeler.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 S Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: snip > Remarkable is Droitwich at 198kHz. There the carrier goes > downward during modulation! I used to get that with my old AM Tx in the 50's! Cause: Lack of grid drive and improper loading/tuning. I wonder which it is now... Mike -- M.J.Powell From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3688 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 14:55:35 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 14:55:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 18444 invoked by uid 10001); 30 Jul 2002 15:00:21 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 15:00:21 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZYKX-0005Ay-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 15:50:33 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZYKW-0005At-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 15:50:32 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17ZYKW-0000vh-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 15:50:32 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ZYKV-0004kI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 15:50:31 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020730151803.00b06398@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 15:50:29 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: Re: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020730150007.009e92e0@POP3.freeler.nl> References: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9B50@mail.dstl.gov.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Dick, Andy, LF group, At 15:20 30/07/2002 +0200, PA0SE wrote: >It would be interesting to know what other amateurs find? Or provide an >explanation of the anomaly? I made some rough measurements of the FS of Droitwich and Donnebach over the weekend using an SPM-19 with 25Hz filter, and saw similar fluctuations in level to Dick's. All these signals have phase modulation of some sort applied to their carriers - it occurs to me if the RX bandwidth is narrower than the modulation sidebands produced by the PM, the result of filtering out some components of the PM signal will be an amplitude-varying signal - The higher the modulation index is, the greater the signal power in frequencies further from the carrier - a bit like the technique for calibrating FM deviation using a spectrum analyser, where with a mod index of 2.4 the carrier power drops to zero, in spite of the total signal power remaining constant. The filtered PM signal would then have an amplitude which generally decreased as the phase modulation index increased. Perhaps with the wider bandwidth of Andy's W-J receiver, all the sidebands are passed, and this does not occur? A simple experiment would be to use the spectrogram software to see how wide the phase modulation sidebands are. I also checked the France Inter signal on 162kHz, which did not show this effect - but I recall from playing around with my vectorscope circuit a while ago that the phase modulation on this signal is much slower, therefore narrower bandwidth than the Droitwich phase modulation. I will check up on this when I get home - assuming I can hear anything through the lightning QRN! Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU Cheers From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21337 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 14:00:11 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 14:00:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 12770 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 14:00:03 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 14:00:03 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZXTH-000540-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:55:31 +0100 Received: from grunt4.ihug.co.nz ([203.109.254.44]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZXTF-00053v-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:55:30 +0100 Received: from p207-tnt1.chc.ihug.co.nz (athlon) [203.173.227.207] by grunt4.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17ZXTA-00029A-00; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 01:55:24 +1200 Message-ID: <019301c237d0$d07cf2d0$0101a8c0@athlon> From: "Dave Brown" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020730150007.009e92e0@POP3.freeler.nl> Subject: Re: LF: Re: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 01:55:49 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dick Are the signals for which you experience the unusual carrier level variations typically the stronger ones that you are comparing? Is the lowest frequency at which they AM the carrier the same in each case? And what about the rx LO in all the rxs involved (including Andy's Watkins-Johnson)? Are they synthesised or not and are any specs re phase noise on the LO available? Just wondering if this is yet another example of reciprocal mixing problems? Off to bed-it's 2am here! 73 Dave ZL3FJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Rollema" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 1:20 AM Subject: Re: LF: Re: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX > To All from PA0SE > > Andy, G4JNT wrote: > > > > >I've just made a check of both Droitwich and Donebach transmissions using > >the WatKins Johnson WJ-8711 receiver here at work. Using the narrowest IF > >bandwidth of 56Hz, setting manual gain control, and monitoring the output > >tone using Gram on its widest setting I cannot detect any variation in > >carrier level with modulation on either of the two transmitters. The level > >meter, which indicates actual signal level, accurately calibrated in dBm, > >also shows no significant variation with modulation. There is perhaps 1dB of > >variation on Donebach ( due to fading ?) and nothing on Droitwich. > > > >I'm very sure (read 99.9% certain) Droitwich has no amplitude modulation - > >viewing it on a vectorscope in the past shows only the phase variation. So > >perhaps you are seeing some secondary effects introduced by the receiver ? > > > >Andy G4JNT > > > >I repeated the reception using the Wandel & Goltermann PSM-5 selective > >voltmeter and a wire aerial instead of the loop. The results were > >identical to the SPM-12 and the loop aerial: variation in strength as > >read on the meter on Donebach, Droitwich and Dutch 747kHz and steady > >readings on other LF and MF transmitters. The variations follow the > >modulating signal so it is not a matter of conversion of a data PSK or FSK > >signal into AM. > > It would be interesting to know what other amateurs find? Or provide an > explanation of the anomaly? > > 73, Dick, PA0SE > > > > > > >< I am pretty sure Donebach uses some form of controlled carrier modulation, > > >apart from the phase modulation mentioned by Walter. > > > > >Our Dutch MF transmittters at 747kHz and 1008kHz are also made by > > >Telefunken (400kW at daytime). The 747kHz transmitter uses controlled > > >carrier to save power and expenses; the 1008kHz one does not. The carrier > > >at 747kHz, as measured by the SPM-12 at 25Hz bandwidth, shows the same kind > > > > >of fluctuations as the Donebach one, the 1008kHz carrier is steady. > > > > >Remarkable is Droitwich at 198kHz. There the carrier goes downward during > > >modulation! > > > > > >"This e-mail is intended for the recipient only. If you are not the > >intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, > >or rely upon this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has > >misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail." > > > >"Recipients should note that all e-mail traffic on MOD systems is > >subject to monitoring and auditing." > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28177 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 13:29:18 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 13:29:18 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 18347 invoked by uid 10001); 30 Jul 2002 13:33:56 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 13:33:55 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZWzt-00050L-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:25:09 +0100 Received: from cmailenv2.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.54]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZWzt-00050G-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:25:09 +0100 Received: from [62.21.151.118] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV2.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17ZWzr-00047g-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:25:07 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020730150007.009e92e0@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 15:20:56 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: Re: LF: Re: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX In-reply-to: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9B50@mail.dstl.gov.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE

Andy, G4JNT wrote:



I've just made a check of both Droitwich and Donebach transmissions using
the WatKins Johnson WJ-8711 receiver here at work.  Using the narrowest IF
bandwidth of 56Hz, setting manual gain control, and monitoring the output
tone using Gram on its widest setting I cannot detect any variation in
carrier level with modulation on either of the two transmitters.  The level
meter, which indicates actual signal level, accurately calibrated in dBm,
also shows no significant variation with modulation. There is perhaps 1dB of
variation on Donebach ( due to fading ?)  and nothing on Droitwich.

I'm very sure (read 99.9% certain) Droitwich has no amplitude modulation -
viewing it on a vectorscope in the past shows only the phase variation.  So
perhaps you are seeing some secondary effects introduced by the receiver ?

Andy  G4JNT

I repeated the reception using the Wandel & Goltermann PSM-5 selective voltmeter and  a wire aerial instead of the loop. The results were identical to the SPM-12 and the loop aerial: variation in strength as read  on the meter on Donebach, Droitwich and Dutch 747kHz and steady readings on other LF and MF transmitters.  The variations follow the modulating signal so it is not a matter of conversion of a data PSK or FSK signal into AM.

It would be interesting to know what other amateurs  find? Or provide an explanation of the anomaly?

73, Dick, PA0SE

 


< I am pretty sure Donebach uses some form of controlled carrier modulation,
>apart from the phase modulation mentioned by Walter.

>Our Dutch MF transmittters at 747kHz and 1008kHz are also made by
>Telefunken (400kW at daytime).  The 747kHz transmitter uses controlled
>carrier to save power and expenses; the 1008kHz one does not. The carrier
>at 747kHz, as measured by the SPM-12 at 25Hz bandwidth, shows the same kind

>of fluctuations as the Donebach one, the 1008kHz carrier is steady.

>Remarkable is Droitwich at 198kHz. There the carrier goes downward during
>modulation!


"This e-mail is intended for the recipient only.  If you are not the
intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print,
or rely upon this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has
misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail."

"Recipients should note that all e-mail traffic on MOD systems is
subject to monitoring and auditing."
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17704 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 12:35:59 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 12:35:59 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 3175 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 12:36:01 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 12:36:01 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZW94-0004ud-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:30:34 +0100 Received: from relay.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.49]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZW93-0004uY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:30:33 +0100 Received: (qmail 1355 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 13:30:32 +0100 Received: from butterfly.mod.uk (HELO warlock.dstl.gov.uk) (192.5.29.10) by relay.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 13:30:32 +0100 Message-ID: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9B50@mail.dstl.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: "LF Group \(E-mail\)" Subject: LF: Re: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:30:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------060802090007080603070302" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060802090007080603070302 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've just made a check of both Droitwich and Donebach transmissions using the WatKins Johnson WJ-8711 receiver here at work. Using the narrowest IF bandwidth of 56Hz, setting manual gain control, and monitoring the output tone using Gram on its widest setting I cannot detect any variation in carrier level with modulation on either of the two transmitters. The level meter, which indicates actual signal level, accurately calibrated in dBm, also shows no significant variation with modulation. There is perhaps 1dB of variation on Donebach ( due to fading ?) and nothing on Droitwich. I'm very sure (read 99.9% certain) Droitwich has no amplitude modulation - viewing it on a vectorscope in the past shows only the phase variation. So perhaps you are seeing some secondary effects introduced by the receiver ? Andy G4JNT >I am pretty sure Donebach uses some form of controlled carrier modulation, >apart from the phase modulation mentioned by Walter. >Our Dutch MF transmittters at 747kHz and 1008kHz are also made by >Telefunken (400kW at daytime). The 747kHz transmitter uses controlled >carrier to save power and expenses; the 1008kHz one does not. The carrier >at 747kHz, as measured by the SPM-12 at 25Hz bandwidth, shows the same kind >of fluctuations as the Donebach one, the 1008kHz carrier is steady. R>emarkable is Droitwich at 198kHz. There the carrier goes downward during >modulation! "This e-mail is intended for the recipient only. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, or rely upon this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail." "Recipients should note that all e-mail traffic on MOD systems is subject to monitoring and auditing." --------------060802090007080603070302 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252; name="ATT00001.htm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ATT00001.htm" Dear Walter & the LF-Group,

Today I tried to measure the field strength of Donebach at 153kHz again.

I am pretty sure Donebach uses some form of controlled carrier modulation, apart from the phase modulation mentioned by Walter.

Our Dutch MF transmittters at 747kHz and 1008kHz are also made by Telefunken (400kW at daytime).  The 747kHz transmitter uses controlled carrier to save power and expenses; the 1008kHz one does not. The carrier at 747kHz, as measured by the SPM-12 at 25Hz bandwidth, shows the same kind of fluctuations as the Donebach one, the 1008kHz carrier is steady.

Remarkable is Droitwich at 198kHz. There the carrier goes downward during modulation!

The varying carrier strength of Donebach makes it difficult to read the meter of the SPM-12. But the instrument has at the back a "DC output"  that is proportional to the measured value (so it is not  DC a purist will remark). I fed that voltage to an oscilloscope and noted the maximum deflection, which also cannot be read  accurately because of the wild jumps of  the deflection with the modulation. I then replaced the loop aerial by a HP606B signal generator, tuned it to 153kHz and adjusted the output to the same deflection. The generator voltage was then 20 microvolt. With a 1 x 1m single turn untuned loop this means the field strength of Donebach is 6.25 microvolt/m. Using the CCIR groundwave curve for "Land" (conductivity 30mS/m; dielectric constant 40) the power of Donebach follows as 200kW EMRP.
The aerial efficiency is given by  Walter as 88%.  This indicates a transmitter power of 200/0.88 = 227kW.
Perhaps, as suggested by Walter, there is only one 250kW transmitter in operation. What with the uncertainties involved and the fact the aerial system is not omnidirectional the 200kw EMRP looks to me like a plausible result, taking into account the uncertainties involved in the process.

As a check I inserted in G4GFQ's groundwave propagation computer program P = 227kW,  efficiency of the transmit aerial 88%, pastoral ground (number 5) and distance 435km. The field strength came out as 5.33 microvolt/m, which differs 1.4dB with my measured value.

73, Dick, PA0SE
 

At 09:10 28-7-02 +0200, you wrote:
Dick, what I forgot yesterday - the efficiency of the Donebach-antenna is quoted as 88% for 153KHz.
73 Walter
 
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Walter
An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Juli 2002 18:06
Betreff: LF: Re: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX
Dear Dick and All,
    about DLF. During daylight time normal transmitting power is 500KW from 2 transmitters by Telefunken, each 250KW. These power is fed to the northwestern one of the two masts. The southeastern one is coupled by radiation and has a phase shift. This generates a 3dB attenuation to southeast - because of Radio Brasov, Romania, on the same frequency. During the night power is reduced to 250KW, fed to both masts, also with phase shift. So the attenuation increases to 11dB to protect the Brasov-area. I think you get the full radiation. But probably today is only one transmitter in use because of maintenance. Please try next week again. BTW: The carrier is also modulated in phase shift with GPS-correction-data.
73 Walter DJ2LF
 
 
 
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Dick Rollema
An: LF-Group
Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Juli 2002 11:03
Betreff: LF: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX
To All from PA0SE,
Sorry to bother you again with a field strength story. But the delete key is within easy reach...

The Deutschlandfunk Donebach transmitter at 153kHz is on again. At 0840 UTC today I measured its field strength as 5.6millivolt/metre.
Using the CCIR groundwave propagation curve that produces plausible results on DCF39 and M0BMU the Effective Monopole Radiated Power (EMRP) comes out as 157kW.

On the Internet I found transmitter power is 500kW. But there are two 363m high aerial masts. This suggests a directive array. As the transmissions are probably not meant for the Netherlands we may get only part of the full blast.

Measuring with the SPM-12 in 25Hz bandwidth the reading moved up and down a bit with the modulation. Perhaps some power (and money) saving controlled carrier system is used. It could also be that some of the lowest modulation frequency components are passed by the 25Hz  I.F. filter. But other BC stations on LF do not show the effect.

73, Dick, PA0SE
--------------060802090007080603070302-- From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19133 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 10:43:18 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 10:43:18 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 24640 invoked by uid 10001); 30 Jul 2002 10:48:04 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 10:48:03 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZUPH-0004iu-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:39:11 +0100 Received: from cmailenv3.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.55]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZUPG-0004ip-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:39:10 +0100 Received: from [62.21.149.95] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV3.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17ZUPD-00005E-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:39:08 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020730111943.00a25240@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:37:37 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: Re: LF: Re: Re: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Dear Walter & the LF-Group,

Today I tried to measure the field strength of Donebach at 153kHz again.

I am pretty sure Donebach uses some form of controlled carrier modulation, apart from the phase modulation mentioned by Walter.

Our Dutch MF transmittters at 747kHz and 1008kHz are also made by Telefunken (400kW at daytime).  The 747kHz transmitter uses controlled carrier to save power and expenses; the 1008kHz one does not. The carrier at 747kHz, as measured by the SPM-12 at 25Hz bandwidth, shows the same kind of fluctuations as the Donebach one, the 1008kHz carrier is steady.

Remarkable is Droitwich at 198kHz. There the carrier goes downward during modulation!

The varying carrier strength of Donebach makes it difficult to read the meter of the SPM-12. But the instrument has at the back a "DC output"  that is proportional to the measured value (so it is not  DC a purist will remark). I fed that voltage to an oscilloscope and noted the maximum deflection, which also cannot be read  accurately because of the wild jumps of  the deflection with the modulation. I then replaced the loop aerial by a HP606B signal generator, tuned it to 153kHz and adjusted the output to the same deflection. The generator voltage was then 20 microvolt. With a 1 x 1m single turn untuned loop this means the field strength of Donebach is 6.25 microvolt/m. Using the CCIR groundwave curve for "Land" (conductivity 30mS/m; dielectric constant 40) the power of Donebach follows as 200kW EMRP.
The aerial efficiency is given by  Walter as 88%.  This indicates a transmitter power of 200/0.88 = 227kW.
Perhaps, as suggested by Walter, there is only one 250kW transmitter in operation. What with the uncertainties involved and the fact the aerial system is not omnidirectional the 200kw EMRP looks to me like a plausible result, taking into account the uncertainties involved in the process.

As a check I inserted in G4GFQ's groundwave propagation computer program P = 227kW,  efficiency of the transmit aerial 88%, pastoral ground (number 5) and distance 435km. The field strength came out as 5.33 microvolt/m, which differs 1.4dB with my measured value.

73, Dick, PA0SE
 

At 09:10 28-7-02 +0200, you wrote:
Dick, what I forgot yesterday - the efficiency of the Donebach-antenna is quoted as 88% for 153KHz.
73 Walter
 
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Walter
An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Juli 2002 18:06
Betreff: LF: Re: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX
Dear Dick and All,
    about DLF. During daylight time normal transmitting power is 500KW from 2 transmitters by Telefunken, each 250KW. These power is fed to the northwestern one of the two masts. The southeastern one is coupled by radiation and has a phase shift. This generates a 3dB attenuation to southeast - because of Radio Brasov, Romania, on the same frequency. During the night power is reduced to 250KW, fed to both masts, also with phase shift. So the attenuation increases to 11dB to protect the Brasov-area. I think you get the full radiation. But probably today is only one transmitter in use because of maintenance. Please try next week again. BTW: The carrier is also modulated in phase shift with GPS-correction-data.
73 Walter DJ2LF
 
 
 
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Dick Rollema
An: LF-Group
Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Juli 2002 11:03
Betreff: LF: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX
To All from PA0SE,
Sorry to bother you again with a field strength story. But the delete key is within easy reach...

The Deutschlandfunk Donebach transmitter at 153kHz is on again. At 0840 UTC today I measured its field strength as 5.6millivolt/metre.
Using the CCIR groundwave propagation curve that produces plausible results on DCF39 and M0BMU the Effective Monopole Radiated Power (EMRP) comes out as 157kW.

On the Internet I found transmitter power is 500kW. But there are two 363m high aerial masts. This suggests a directive array. As the transmissions are probably not meant for the Netherlands we may get only part of the full blast.

Measuring with the SPM-12 in 25Hz bandwidth the reading moved up and down a bit with the modulation. Perhaps some power (and money) saving controlled carrier system is used. It could also be that some of the lowest modulation frequency components are passed by the 25Hz  I.F. filter. But other BC stations on LF do not show the effect.

73, Dick, PA0SE
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29304 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2002 09:39:38 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 09:39:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 9426 invoked by uid 10001); 30 Jul 2002 09:44:15 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jul 2002 09:44:14 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZTGC-0004ai-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:25:44 +0100 Received: from smarthost4.mail.uk.easynet.net ([212.135.6.14]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZTGB-0004ad-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:25:43 +0100 Received: from tnt-21-221.easynet.co.uk ([212.134.228.221] helo=erica) by smarthost4.mail.uk.easynet.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17ZTGA-000DkX-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:25:42 +0100 Message-ID: <000401c237ac$b88f5920$dde486d4@erica> From: "g3ldo" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020726140304.00ae6518@gemini.herts.ac.uk> <17YCsw-1DnzvMC@fwd01.sul.t-online.com> <3D4257FC.CDC26C4D@usa.net> <17YaBz-1fyxdIC@fwd00.sul.t-online.com> <000b01c2371e$77ec0be0$8fc428c3@erica> Subject: LF: Re: Re: Loran Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:36:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > I don't have my transmitting antenna up at the moment but I do have the 2m > square loop. I checked the band and found no trace of Loran in the band even > the loop was aimed at Lessay. The Loran signal is loud on 100kHz. So it is > on reduced power for maintenance or it has been cleaned up! Loran back to normal this morning. Regards, Peter, G3LDO e-mail Web From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24253 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2002 20:53:09 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 29 Jul 2002 20:53:09 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 25523 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2002 20:53:09 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 29 Jul 2002 20:53:09 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZHP0-0003G2-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:46:02 +0100 Received: from siaar2ab.compuserve.com ([149.174.40.138]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZHOz-0003Fx-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:46:01 +0100 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by siaar2ab.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.12) id QAA12822 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:45:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:45:08 -0400 From: "boffin1" Subject: LF: IEE Paper To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: <200207291645_MC3-1-8C5-EE69@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Andy, Good luck with your IEE paper. I have nothing worthwhile to contribute but will try to attend the meeting at Savoy Place. 73. Roger, G2AJV (FIEE) From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3417 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2002 16:33:26 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 29 Jul 2002 16:33:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 12889 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2002 16:33:27 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 29 Jul 2002 16:33:27 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZDMm-0002eL-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:27:28 +0100 Received: from smarthost1.mail.uk.easynet.net ([212.135.6.11]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ZDMm-0002eG-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:27:28 +0100 Received: from tnt-2-143.easynet.co.uk ([195.40.196.143] helo=erica) by smarthost1.mail.uk.easynet.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17ZDMk-0000R8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:27:27 +0100 Message-ID: <000b01c2371e$77ec0be0$8fc428c3@erica> From: "g3ldo" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020726140304.00ae6518@gemini.herts.ac.uk> <17YCsw-1DnzvMC@fwd01.sul.t-online.com> <3D4257FC.CDC26C4D@usa.net> <17YaBz-1fyxdIC@fwd00.sul.t-online.com> Subject: LF: Re: Loran Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:38:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I received a phone call this afternoon, regarding LF components, from Derek, G3GRO. During the discussion he mentioned that while setting up the sensing loop for MB7LF that Loran seemed a bit muted. I don't have my transmitting antenna up at the moment but I do have the 2m square loop. I checked the band and found no trace of Loran in the band even the loop was aimed at Lessay. The Loran signal is loud on 100kHz. So it is on reduced power for maintenance or it has been cleaned up! QRN is at S9 at the moment. Regards, Peter, G3LDO e-mail Web From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24079 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2002 12:17:29 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 29 Jul 2002 12:17:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 26716 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2002 12:17:29 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 29 Jul 2002 12:17:29 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Z9I8-000252-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:06:24 +0100 Received: from d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.5]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Z9I7-00024x-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:06:23 +0100 Received: from d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.166.84.148]) by d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com (1.0.0) with ESMTP id NAA22256 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:08:07 +0100 Received: from usa.net (ss2.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.67]) by d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.3/NCO/VER6.3) with ESMTP id g6TC6CAA088122 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:06:13 +0100 Message-ID: <3D452F5D.87685C6@usa.net> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:04:45 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: off topic/Jason References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020726140304.00ae6518@gemini.herts.ac.uk> <17YCsw-1DnzvMC@fwd01.sul.t-online.com> <3D4257FC.CDC26C4D@usa.net> <17YaBz-1fyxdIC@fwd00.sul.t-online.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: jannsen wrote: > up to now I have`nt read such a nice vivid explanation in form of an > "analogat" (new latin language of philosophers). Hi Uwe, analogat : the "primum analogatum". I see that you are a philosopher.. myself I am a physicist. We belong to two categories that have many points in common... and as many to argue about... :-) > do you have a similar illustration naming it "Jason" ? I do know the > Jason myth but can`t imagine any connection with your progr. No, sorry.. the connection is that Jason is based on the technology of Argo... the ship and its coxswain... not another fancy analogat...:-) 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4595 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2002 11:13:50 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 29 Jul 2002 11:13:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 28838 invoked by uid 10001); 29 Jul 2002 11:18:35 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 29 Jul 2002 11:18:35 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Z8OY-0001wE-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:08:58 +0100 Received: from mail6.mx.voyager.net ([216.93.66.205]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Z8OX-0001w9-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:08:57 +0100 Received: from k6500 (d27.as3.mpls.mn.voyager.net [169.207.249.251] (may be forged)) by mail6.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id g6TB8r731249 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:08:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "WE0H" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: LPT/Parallel port setup for transmitting??? Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 06:09:02 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020729110520.03224ab8@pb623250.kuleuven.be> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Rik, I switched to the serial port and of course rewired the connector and changed the interface to a PNP transistor. All is fine and well now. It has been running all weekend without any trouble. There is a minor bug in your QRS3.17 in Windows 3.11, but I'll report about that later today for you. 73's, Mike>WE0H http://www.we0h.us/lf.html -----Original Message----- From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of Rik Strobbe Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 4:12 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: LPT/Parallel port setup for transmitting??? Hello Bill, QRS should work fine with the parallel port if running under Win3, Win95 and Win98. The way I acces the parallel port will not work under WinNT, Win2000, WinXP as these operating systems do not allow direct acces to the memory locations I use to handle the LPT port. (it seems to be a hobby of mr. Gates to make life hard for those who want access the hardware of a PC) The fact that accessing the LPT port via DOS also failed makes me suspicious that you could have a defective LPT port. Or you are trying to access the wrong port, if LPT1 doesn't work give it a try with LPT2. 73, Rik ON7YD At 18:25 25/07/2002 -0500, you wrote: >I am using Windows 3.11 with the QRS 3.17 program and keyer design that >comes with the program. I am keying an Epson Oscillator with a 10k resistor >in series with the collector of the NPN transistor. I am using pin 2 of the >LPT port. Pins 18 thru 25 are tied together and to the transmitters ground. >I am not getting any keying and don't see any change in voltage on pin 2. I >have tried a DOS program from Lyle (K0LR) and his program didn't switch any >of the lines either. Is there something I need to do in Windows to get the >port running??? I am ready to give up and go with a memory keyer real soon. >Thanks es 73's, >Mike>WE0H >http://www.we0h.us/lf.html >185.303kc QRSS/CW >ID is "WE" >Not on yet... From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19374 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2002 09:17:27 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 29 Jul 2002 09:17:27 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 10562 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2002 09:17:26 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 29 Jul 2002 09:17:26 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Z6W9-0001eK-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:08:41 +0100 Received: from mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.50]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Z6W9-0001eF-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:08:41 +0100 Received: from dell-rik.fys.kuleuven.ac.be ([10.33.165.177]) by mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g6T989SK190516 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 11:08:09 +0200 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020729110520.03224ab8@pb623250.kuleuven.be> X-Sender: pb623250@pb623250.kuleuven.be X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 11:11:50 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: Re: LF: LPT/Parallel port setup for transmitting??? In-reply-to: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello Bill, QRS should work fine with the parallel port if running under Win3, Win95 and Win98. The way I acces the parallel port will not work under WinNT, Win2000, WinXP as these operating systems do not allow direct acces to the memory locations I use to handle the LPT port. (it seems to be a hobby of mr. Gates to make life hard for those who want access the hardware of a PC) The fact that accessing the LPT port via DOS also failed makes me suspicious that you could have a defective LPT port. Or you are trying to access the wrong port, if LPT1 doesn't work give it a try with LPT2. 73, Rik ON7YD At 18:25 25/07/2002 -0500, you wrote: >I am using Windows 3.11 with the QRS 3.17 program and keyer design that >comes with the program. I am keying an Epson Oscillator with a 10k resistor >in series with the collector of the NPN transistor. I am using pin 2 of the >LPT port. Pins 18 thru 25 are tied together and to the transmitters ground. >I am not getting any keying and don't see any change in voltage on pin 2. I >have tried a DOS program from Lyle (K0LR) and his program didn't switch any >of the lines either. Is there something I need to do in Windows to get the >port running??? I am ready to give up and go with a memory keyer real soon. >Thanks es 73's, >Mike>WE0H >http://www.we0h.us/lf.html >185.303kc QRSS/CW >ID is "WE" >Not on yet... From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12405 invoked from network); 28 Jul 2002 07:16:32 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 28 Jul 2002 07:16:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 3686 invoked from network); 28 Jul 2002 07:16:32 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 28 Jul 2002 07:16:32 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YiBf-00079T-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 28 Jul 2002 08:09:55 +0100 Received: from hugo.fen-net.de ([212.204.115.10] ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YiBe-00079O-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 28 Jul 2002 08:09:54 +0100 Received: from DEFAULT (dialin-nbg-035.fen-net.de [212.204.116.35]) by hugo.fen-net.de (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g6S7858j013910 for ; Sun, 28 Jul 2002 09:08:06 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <000d01c23605$e0f3b6c0$2374ccd4@DEFAULT> From: "Walter" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020727104300.00a2ae30@POP3.freeler.nl> <000901c23587$ac08a520$6b74ccd4@DEFAULT> Subject: LF: Re: Re: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 09:10:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Dick, what I forgot yesterday - the efficiency of the Donebach-antenna is quoted as 88% for 153KHz.
73 Walter
 
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Walter
Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Juli 2002 18:06
Betreff: LF: Re: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX

Dear Dick and All,
    about DLF. During daylight time normal transmitting power is 500KW from 2 transmitters by Telefunken, each 250KW. These power is fed to the northwestern one of the two masts. The southeastern one is coupled by radiation and has a phase shift. This generates a 3dB attenuation to southeast - because of Radio Brasov, Romania, on the same frequency. During the night power is reduced to 250KW, fed to both masts, also with phase shift. So the attenuation increases to 11dB to protect the Brasov-area. I think you get the full radiation. But probably today is only one transmitter in use because of maintenance. Please try next week again. BTW: The carrier is also modulated in phase shift with GPS-correction-data.
73 Walter DJ2LF
 
 
 
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Juli 2002 11:03
Betreff: LF: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX

To All from PA0SE,

Sorry to bother you again with a field strength story. But the delete key is within easy reach...

The Deutschlandfunk Donebach transmitter at 153kHz is on again. At 0840 UTC today I measured its field strength as 5.6millivolt/metre.
Using the CCIR groundwave propagation curve that produces plausible results on DCF39 and M0BMU the Effective Monopole Radiated Power (EMRP) comes out as 157kW.

On the Internet I found transmitter power is 500kW. But there are two 363m high aerial masts. This suggests a directive array. As the transmissions are probably not meant for the Netherlands we may get only part of the full blast.

Measuring with the SPM-12 in 25Hz bandwidth the reading moved up and down a bit with the modulation. Perhaps some power (and money) saving controlled carrier system is used. It could also be that some of the lowest modulation frequency components are passed by the 25Hz  I.F. filter. But other BC stations on LF do not show the effect.

73, Dick, PA0SE
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20926 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2002 22:44:40 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 27 Jul 2002 22:44:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 1494 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2002 22:44:35 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 Jul 2002 22:44:35 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YaCD-000658-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 23:37:57 +0100 Received: from mailout01.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.80]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YaCC-000653-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 23:37:56 +0100 Received: from fwd00.sul.t-online.de by mailout01.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17YaC5-0006jd-04; Sun, 28 Jul 2002 00:37:49 +0200 Received: from (0482183881-0001@[62.224.51.200]) by fwd00.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17YaBz-1fyxdIC; Sun, 28 Jul 2002 00:37:43 +0200 From: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020726140304.00ae6518@gemini.herts.ac.uk> <17YCsw-1DnzvMC@fwd01.sul.t-online.com> <3D4257FC.CDC26C4D@usa.net> Subject: LF: off topic/Jason X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 00:37:43 +0200 Message-ID: <17YaBz-1fyxdIC@fwd00.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0482183881-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Alberto di Bene schrieb: > jannsen wrote: > > > Hi Jim, Alberto es all > > > > my report see attachment. conspicuous the spurii during the switchovers from > > tone to tone. has Alberto an explanation ? > > Hello Uwe and the group, > > yes, there is an explanation. > The waterfall window has a strong visual AGC applied, so to put into greater > evidence the tone received. The AGC gain is computed only taking into > consideration what falls inside the two yellow lines. > > Now picture into your mind the FFT buffer as a long glass tube, where coloured > water enters from one side, flows all along the tube and exits from the other > side. The water can have different colours, which correspond to the frequency > of the incoming signals. Suppose a single frequency is arriving, > corresponding to > a red water colour. This is the predominant colour, your eye sees only it, > unconsciously > discarding spurious strikes of other colours. Now the tone changes. While the > red water still flows towards the exit end of the tube, from the other end > blue > water is coming. Until the tube is full of only blue water, there will be a > changing > mixture of both colours in the tube, red slowly decreasing and blue > increasing. > In this condition, your eye is no more dominated by a single chromatic > sensation, > and you see the red, the blue and the other strikes. This also explains the > blurring that can be seen, lets' say, in Spectran when receiving a DFCW signal > and the tone changes. > In this analogy your eye is the equivalent of the FFT processing, which is > presented > with the input buffer (the tube). > > It's not a perfect example, many things could be criticized, but I do hope it > can > explain a little what's happening. > > 73 Alberto I2PHD > Hi Alberto, up to now I have`nt read such a nice vivid explanation in form of an "analogat" (new latin language of philosophers). do you have a similar illustration naming it "Jason" ? I do know the Jason myth but can`t imagine any connection with your progr. tks es regards Uwe/dj8wx From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9852 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2002 16:10:35 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 27 Jul 2002 16:10:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 7506 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2002 16:10:31 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 Jul 2002 16:10:31 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YU5R-0005Lt-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 17:06:33 +0100 Received: from hugo.fen-net.de ([212.204.115.10] ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YU5Q-0005Ll-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 17:06:32 +0100 Received: from DEFAULT (dialin-nbg-107.fen-net.de [212.204.116.107]) by hugo.fen-net.de (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g6RG4l8j011388 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 18:04:47 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <000901c23587$ac08a520$6b74ccd4@DEFAULT> From: "Walter" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020727104300.00a2ae30@POP3.freeler.nl> Subject: LF: Re: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 18:06:34 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Dear Dick and All,
    about DLF. During daylight time normal transmitting power is 500KW from 2 transmitters by Telefunken, each 250KW. These power is fed to the northwestern one of the two masts. The southeastern one is coupled by radiation and has a phase shift. This generates a 3dB attenuation to southeast - because of Radio Brasov, Romania, on the same frequency. During the night power is reduced to 250KW, fed to both masts, also with phase shift. So the attenuation increases to 11dB to protect the Brasov-area. I think you get the full radiation. But probably today is only one transmitter in use because of maintenance. Please try next week again. BTW: The carrier is also modulated in phase shift with GPS-correction-data.
73 Walter DJ2LF
 
 
 
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Juli 2002 11:03
Betreff: LF: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX

To All from PA0SE,

Sorry to bother you again with a field strength story. But the delete key is within easy reach...

The Deutschlandfunk Donebach transmitter at 153kHz is on again. At 0840 UTC today I measured its field strength as 5.6millivolt/metre.
Using the CCIR groundwave propagation curve that produces plausible results on DCF39 and M0BMU the Effective Monopole Radiated Power (EMRP) comes out as 157kW.

On the Internet I found transmitter power is 500kW. But there are two 363m high aerial masts. This suggests a directive array. As the transmissions are probably not meant for the Netherlands we may get only part of the full blast.

Measuring with the SPM-12 in 25Hz bandwidth the reading moved up and down a bit with the modulation. Perhaps some power (and money) saving controlled carrier system is used. It could also be that some of the lowest modulation frequency components are passed by the 25Hz  I.F. filter. But other BC stations on LF do not show the effect.

73, Dick, PA0SE
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16827 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2002 16:09:57 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 27 Jul 2002 16:09:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 22622 invoked by uid 10001); 27 Jul 2002 16:14:40 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 Jul 2002 16:14:40 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YU4k-0005L8-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 17:05:50 +0100 Received: from e2.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.102]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YU4j-0005L3-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 17:05:49 +0100 Received: from northrelay01.pok.ibm.com (northrelay01.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.149]) by e2.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6RG5Ie8130096 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 12:05:18 -0400 Received: from usa.net (ss6.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.71]) by northrelay01.pok.ibm.com (8.12.3/NCO/VER6.3) with ESMTP id g6RG5DjT023974 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 12:05:15 -0400 Message-ID: <3D42C4DC.CB150CD0@usa.net> Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 18:05:48 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: DLF-test References: <002c01c234cc$d45afa20$2574ccd4@DEFAULT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e2.ny.us.ibm.com id g6RG5Ie8130096 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Walter wrote: > Hello to all LF`ers, dear friends, > at first we have to say many many thanks to to all of you, who made QSOôs with > us or gave us reports, info and tips by mail or phone. > And we should like to thank the officials from RegTP and Deutsche Telekom who > allowed us the activity from the DLF-site and gave us every support. Congratulations for your effort. Did you take any photos while there ? Maybe you can put them on a Web page dedicated to the event. 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15680 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2002 15:11:39 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 27 Jul 2002 15:11:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 16096 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2002 15:11:39 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 Jul 2002 15:11:39 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YT8W-0005C0-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 16:05:40 +0100 Received: from mta4-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.44]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YT8V-0005Bv-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 16:05:39 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.204.140]) by mta4-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020727150538.TTLK24708.mta4-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 16:05:38 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c2357b$2d08dbc0$8cccfc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020726140304.00ae6518@gemini.herts.ac.uk> Subject: LF: Re: Jason 0.94 tests Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 18:20:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Moritz" To: Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 2:08 PM Subject: LF: Jason 0.94 tests > Dear LF Group, > > No reports received so far from last night's Jason tests - so will try > again this evening at the same times - 400mW ERP from 1900 until 2000 utc, > and 40mW ERP from 2000 until 2100 utc, on the same frequency 137.500kHz. > Any reports welcome - even if you get no copy! Jim. I had a look last night and could not decode anything on Jason. Unusual at this qth, but the qrn pick up was severe and probably wiped you out completely. Maybe not a mode for use under qrn or adverse conditions. You cannot beat the direct visual or aural cw/qrs cw approach under poor conditions. Jason and all the other modes maybe work under good conditions but you cannot beat a good pair of EARS or even the visual qrs approach. G3KEV > > Cheers, Jim Moritz > 73 de M0BMU > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29292 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2002 15:11:39 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 27 Jul 2002 15:11:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 11716 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2002 15:11:40 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 Jul 2002 15:11:40 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YT8Y-0005C7-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 16:05:42 +0100 Received: from mta4-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.44]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YT8Y-0005C2-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 16:05:42 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.204.140]) by mta4-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020727150541.TTLQ24708.mta4-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 16:05:41 +0100 Message-ID: <000301c2357b$2e695620$8cccfc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3.0.5.32.20020724101244.00a54a30@pop3.esoterica.pt> <3.0.5.32.20020724195804.00a5f6a0@pop3.esoterica.pt> Subject: Re: LF: Re: Activity from Deutschlandfunk Antenna Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 18:26:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Rogerson" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 7:58 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: Activity from Deutschlandfunk Antenna To all the German operators my sincere thanks and very well done. There is an Argo-gram of DF6NM/P on my web pages. To Mal, providing the calibration of my system is not too far off the highest field strength received was -2dBuV/m at 11:54utc and I was only "just" hearing some of the transmission in the noise. The noise floor is -10dBuV/m in 1Hz always remembering the sampling parameters set within SpecLab. Do you really think that I would even be able to find a 1watt ERP transmission at over 1000Km with ears alone during daylight? YES - I can copy all the dx during the day, in fact at times better, OH1TN is often just as strong during daytime, the same applies to the IT5 stations. The signal over noise frequently better during daytime. G3KEV Nevertheless I was overjoyed to actually "hear" an LF transmission for the first time and copy "BMU" during the QSO with Jim. Thanks again for an exciting day, Brian At 19:17 24/07/2002 +0100, you wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brian Rogerson" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 10:12 AM >Subject: Re: LF: Re: Activity from Deutschlandfunk Antenna > > >Very pleased to report that the signal is now being received on 136.5KHz >both in Coruña and Porto, and in Porto it is "just" audible in the noise on >the loudspeaker. Brian > >Just what I said some years back Brian, at your distance the signal should >have blasted you out, but still glad you heard a signal for a change, >instead of watching. >I had a report from the EA/CT border a couple of years ago of 579, also a >similar report from 9H1, that is why I have been surprised in the past that >you could not hear any signals. > >73 de Mal/G3KEV > > > > > > > >Dear LF Group, > >While talking to Alan on the phone I was lucky enough to hear >the transmission start up from the background noise of his receiver >and even I was able to read DJ. I have never heard hand speed >cw on LF before in spite of Mal's optimistic predictions. On >136.52KHz and Argo 3 seconds there is a weak but unidentifiable >signal. > >If at all possible to send a little QRSS for those listening in North >West Iberia it would be very much appreciated. > >Best 73 and good luck, Brian > > > > > > > > >At 18:34 23/07/2002 +0100, you wrote: >>Dear LF Group, >> >>Will be listening out tomorrow morning for activity from DLF site - good >>luck to all involved! >> >>Cheers, Jim Moritz >>73 de M0BMU >> >> >> >> >73 Brian CT1DRP IN51QD 41 09 58N 08 39 11W >http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~brian > > > > > > > 73 Brian CT1DRP IN51QD 41 09 58N 08 39 11W http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~brian From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3871 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2002 12:18:19 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 27 Jul 2002 12:18:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 13872 invoked by uid 10001); 27 Jul 2002 12:23:03 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 Jul 2002 12:23:03 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YQTy-0004iY-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 13:15:38 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YQTy-0004iT-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 13:15:38 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17YQTx-0007L4-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 13:15:37 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17YQTx-0001T3-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 13:15:37 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020727122628.00ab9d80@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 12:57:33 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: Jason 0.94 tests - EA1PX In-reply-to: <3.0.5.32.20020726204921.00a69bc0@pop3.esoterica.pt> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020726215135.00a07220@POP3.freeler.nl> <5.1.0.14.0.20020726140304.00ae6518@gemini.herts.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF Group, Thanks to all for the reports on the Jason test signals. Conditions certainly seem to be very noisy at the moment. I will give the test transmissions a break for a few days, and try to make some measurements of the noise level for comparison. If anyone would like to try any particular experiments, please let me know. The Jason signal is certainly useful for measuring field strength, since it is more or less a continuous carrier, so very easy to measure. I was very pleased to work EA1PX cross-band 137kHz QRSS3 <-> 14MHz CW between 0800 and 0900 utc this morning. Jose was 599 on 20m, and gave me an "O" report. I look forwards to seeing some LF signals from EA - The noise level was still rather high this morning, so perhaps normal CW contacts will be possible during the winter months. 14030kHz might not be the best choice for cross-band QSOs - during my second over, an OH0 station started calling, and there was a sudden frenzy of activity on the frequency - fortunately, by the time the QRSS was finished, the 20m activity had finished as well, and I had perfect copy of Jose again! Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2793 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2002 09:04:30 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 27 Jul 2002 09:04:30 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 22112 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2002 09:04:31 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 Jul 2002 09:04:31 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YNS9-00049S-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:01:33 +0100 Received: from cmailenv1.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.53]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YNS9-00049N-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:01:33 +0100 Received: from [62.21.150.138] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV1.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17YNS6-000082-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 09:01:31 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020727104300.00a2ae30@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 11:03:30 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: Power of Donebach 153kHz TX MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE,

Sorry to bother you again with a field strength story. But the delete key is within easy reach...

The Deutschlandfunk Donebach transmitter at 153kHz is on again. At 0840 UTC today I measured its field strength as 5.6millivolt/metre.
Using the CCIR groundwave propagation curve that produces plausible results on DCF39 and M0BMU the Effective Monopole Radiated Power (EMRP) comes out as 157kW.

On the Internet I found transmitter power is 500kW. But there are two 363m high aerial masts. This suggests a directive array. As the transmissions are probably not meant for the Netherlands we may get only part of the full blast.

Measuring with the SPM-12 in 25Hz bandwidth the reading moved up and down a bit with the modulation. Perhaps some power (and money) saving controlled carrier system is used. It could also be that some of the lowest modulation frequency components are passed by the 25Hz  I.F. filter. But other BC stations on LF do not show the effect.

73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26524 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2002 08:28:04 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 27 Jul 2002 08:28:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 19584 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2002 08:28:05 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 Jul 2002 08:28:05 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YMpG-00040C-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 09:21:22 +0100 Received: from e2.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.102]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YMpF-000407-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 09:21:21 +0100 Received: from northrelay01.pok.ibm.com (northrelay01.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.149]) by e2.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6R8Kne8141812 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 04:20:49 -0400 Received: from usa.net (ss1.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.66]) by northrelay01.pok.ibm.com (8.12.3/NCO/VER6.3) with ESMTP id g6R8Ki0r044112 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 04:20:47 -0400 Message-ID: <3D4257FC.CDC26C4D@usa.net> Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:21:16 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: Jason 0.94 tests References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020726140304.00ae6518@gemini.herts.ac.uk> <17YCsw-1DnzvMC@fwd01.sul.t-online.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: jannsen wrote: > Hi Jim, Alberto es all > > my report see attachment. conspicuous the spurii during the switchovers from > tone to tone. has Alberto an explanation ? Hello Uwe and the group, yes, there is an explanation. The waterfall window has a strong visual AGC applied, so to put into greater evidence the tone received. The AGC gain is computed only taking into consideration what falls inside the two yellow lines. Now picture into your mind the FFT buffer as a long glass tube, where coloured water enters from one side, flows all along the tube and exits from the other side. The water can have different colours, which correspond to the frequency of the incoming signals. Suppose a single frequency is arriving, corresponding to a red water colour. This is the predominant colour, your eye sees only it, unconsciously discarding spurious strikes of other colours. Now the tone changes. While the red water still flows towards the exit end of the tube, from the other end blue water is coming. Until the tube is full of only blue water, there will be a changing mixture of both colours in the tube, red slowly decreasing and blue increasing. In this condition, your eye is no more dominated by a single chromatic sensation, and you see the red, the blue and the other strikes. This also explains the blurring that can be seen, lets' say, in Spectran when receiving a DFCW signal and the tone changes. In this analogy your eye is the equivalent of the FFT processing, which is presented with the input buffer (the tube). It's not a perfect example, many things could be criticized, but I do hope it can explain a little what's happening. 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26755 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2002 00:30:03 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 27 Jul 2002 00:30:03 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 18172 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2002 00:30:03 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 Jul 2002 00:30:03 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YFOd-0002dD-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 01:25:23 +0100 Received: from imo-r02.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.98]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YFOc-0002d8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 01:25:22 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.10e.14bd5290 (4459) for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 20:24:46 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <10e.14bd5290.2a73424e@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 20:24:46 EDT Subject: LF: Jason test signals from M0BMU To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows XP DE sub 50 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hello Jim and group,

successfully decoded  the Jason signals from M0BMU on friday night. The 400mw ERP signal was audible, but frequently interrupted from strong static crashes. Interestingly the waterfall display on Alberto's Jason screen was not much affected by them (no white horizontal lines) so I guess there is some smart pulse noise filter at work.

The difference between the native and the KK7KA decoder was only marginal this time. Sometimes Stewart's algorithm even decided to erase letters which were already printed properly on the screen (happend two times in about 40 letters, so no real problem).

Signal-to-noise ratio with Jims 40mW-transmission was about 9dB (normalized to 1 Hz-RX bandwidth).

A screenshot is available, but unfortunately no saved WAVe-file.

Regards,
 Wolf DL4YHF.

P.S: Late friday evening and early saturday morning, we had a nice tropo opening on 144 MHz from DL into G, GW, GM and even EI. A high-pressure area is on its way, so I guess the propagation will last a bit longer. Anyone on this group interested in a CW crossband contact 2.2km <-> 2m wavelength ?

From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4929 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 21:47:53 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 21:47:53 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 11205 invoked by uid 10001); 26 Jul 2002 21:52:37 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 21:52:36 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YCtO-000265-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:44:58 +0100 Received: from mailout05.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.82]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YCtM-000260-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:44:56 +0100 Received: from fwd01.sul.t-online.de by mailout05.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17YCtH-0003Or-00; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:44:51 +0200 Received: from (0482183881-0001@[62.224.50.73]) by fwd01.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17YCsw-1DnzvMC; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:44:30 +0200 From: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020726140304.00ae6518@gemini.herts.ac.uk> Subject: Re: LF: Jason 0.94 tests X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010406010207010308010604" Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:44:30 +0200 Message-ID: <17YCsw-1DnzvMC@fwd01.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0482183881-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010406010207010308010604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Moritz schrieb: > Dear LF Group, > > No reports received so far from last night's Jason tests - so will try > again this evening at the same times - 400mW ERP from 1900 until 2000 utc, > and 40mW ERP from 2000 until 2100 utc, on the same frequency 137.500kHz. > Any reports welcome - even if you get no copy! > > Cheers, Jim Moritz > 73 de M0BMU > > Hi Jim, Alberto es all my report see attachment. conspicuous the spurii during the switchovers from tone to tone. has Alberto an explanation ? regards and tks for the test and tks for the progr. 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fWsWHi0ITzICM266YnQ5C/VEAysrM6/DZvLdYu/DmatRw9rcEjStjbFUux05B/VYL2n67lpA nzVbt7VbvzVcx7VczzVd17Vd3zVe57Ve7zVf9/VFBAQAOw== --------------010406010207010308010604-- From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 626 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 21:39:24 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 21:39:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 9300 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 21:39:24 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 21:39:23 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YCjs-00023d-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:35:08 +0100 Received: from mail6.mx.voyager.net ([216.93.66.205]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YCjr-00023Y-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:35:07 +0100 Received: from k6500 (d21.as3.mpls.mn.voyager.net [169.207.249.245] (may be forged)) by mail6.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id g6QLZ4771663 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:35:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "WE0H" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: LPT/Parallel port setup for transmitting??? Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:35:09 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020726102807.00ab94b0@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Yep, and when I switched to the serial port, it worked. I only got .6v out on the collector, so I am going to put a stage in there to give me 5v and ground for the swing. It'll work with the Epson after that mod. I should be on the air tonight. Mike>WE0H http://www.we0h.us/lf.html 185.303kc QRSS/CW ID is "WE" -----Original Message----- From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of James Moritz Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 4:33 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: LPT/Parallel port setup for transmitting??? At 18:25 25/07/2002 -0500, you wrote: >I am using Windows 3.11 with the QRS 3.17 program and keyer design that >comes with the program. I am keying an Epson Oscillator with a 10k resistor >in series with the collector of the NPN transistor. I am using pin 2 of the >LPT port.... I have not tried the parallel port, but QRS 3.17 certainly works the COM port OK on my old 386 laptop running Windows 3.1. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8204 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 21:11:03 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 21:11:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 28102 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 21:11:04 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 21:11:04 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YCIi-0001zG-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:07:04 +0100 Received: from e21.nc.us.ibm.com ([32.97.136.227]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YCIh-0001zB-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:07:03 +0100 Received: from westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com (westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.194.22]) by e21.nc.us.ibm.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6QL70RY032732 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:07:01 -0400 Received: from usa.net (ss9.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.75]) by westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.3/NCO/VER6.3) with ESMTP id g6QL6nW3107706 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:06:59 -0600 Message-ID: <3D41BA08.1D20B94A@usa.net> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:07:20 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: Jason 0.94 tests References: <114.14ded542.2a72c679@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello Jim and group, sorry to report that this evening (Friday) I wasn't able to see your signal on Spectran, let alone decode it with Jason. The QRN was terrible, the S meter of the JRC NRD-525 stayed all the time around S9. I was using the 80 meter inverted V, tuned with an inductor, as my loop is now defunct. A new one is being worked on, it will be ready for the winter season. Thanks anyway for the transmission. 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19386 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 20:50:53 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 20:50:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 9667 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 20:50:51 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 20:50:51 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YByw-0001sz-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:46:38 +0100 Received: from jubilee.esoterica.pt ([195.22.0.29]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YByv-0001su-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:46:37 +0100 Received: from srv17slx.esoterica.pt (srv17slx.esoterica.pt [195.22.0.47]) by jubilee.esoterica.pt (8.12.3/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6QJgaeU011163 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 20:42:36 +0100 Received: from slave-6 (por193.esoterica.pt [195.22.5.193]) by srv17slx.esoterica.pt (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g6QKkao19059 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:46:36 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020726204921.00a69bc0@pop3.esoterica.pt> X-Sender: brian@pop3.esoterica.pt X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 20:49:21 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Brian Rogerson" Subject: Re: LF: Jason 0.94 tests In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020726215135.00a07220@POP3.freeler.nl> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020726140304.00ae6518@gemini.herts.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Jim and Group. About 1920utc I received the letters MU but nothing else that made sense. There were many more lines compared to the last time. Sorry. 73, Brian At 21:59 26/07/2002 +0200, you wrote: > To Jim and the LF-group. > > At 1912 UTC I received M0BMU's signal with 42.5 microvolt over 75 ohm of >the SPM-12. If I did my sums right this is -78dBm or S8 + 1 dB (S9 = >-73dBm, S8 = -79dBm). > > Jim's field strength came out as 9.8 microvolt/m. Using Reg's groundwave >program, pastoral ground (5) and Jim's ERP of 400mW (218mW EMRP) the >program predicts a field strength of 9.50 microvolt/m. > > I have no means to decode Jason, so only measured the strength of the signal. > > 73, Dick, PA0SE 73 Brian CT1DRP IN51QD 41 09 58N 08 39 11W http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~brian From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1060 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 20:08:03 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 20:08:03 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 21171 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 20:08:01 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 20:08:01 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YBIP-0001lV-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:02:41 +0100 Received: from cmailenv3.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.55]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17YBIO-0001lQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:02:40 +0100 Received: from [62.21.135.185] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV3.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17YBIM-0005dS-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 20:02:39 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020726215135.00a07220@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:59:53 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: Re: LF: Jason 0.94 tests In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020726140304.00ae6518@gemini.herts.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To Jim and the LF-group.

At 1912 UTC I received M0BMU's signal with 42.5 microvolt over 75 ohm of the SPM-12. If I did my sums right this is -78dBm or S8 + 1 dB (S9 = -73dBm, S8 = -79dBm).

Jim's field strength came out as 9.8 microvolt/m. Using Reg's groundwave program, pastoral ground (5) and Jim's ERP of 400mW (218mW EMRP) the program predicts a field strength of 9.50 microvolt/m.

I have no means to decode Jason, so only measured the strength of the signal.

73, Dick, PA0SE


At 14:08 26-7-02 +0100, you wrote:
Dear LF Group,

No reports received so far from last night's Jason tests - so will try again this evening at the same times - 400mW ERP from 1900 until 2000 utc, and 40mW ERP from 2000 until 2100 utc, on the same frequency 137.500kHz. Any reports welcome - even if you get no copy!

Cheers, Jim Moritz
73 de M0BMU
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15738 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 17:55:19 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 17:55:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 24341 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 17:55:18 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 17:55:18 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Y9DC-0001Mg-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 18:49:10 +0100 Received: from hugo.fen-net.de ([212.204.115.10] ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Y9DB-0001Mb-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 18:49:09 +0100 Received: from DEFAULT (dialin-nbg-120.fen-net.de [212.204.116.120]) by hugo.fen-net.de (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g6QHlN8j011852 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 19:47:23 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <002c01c234cc$d45afa20$2574ccd4@DEFAULT> From: "Walter" To: "rsgb" Subject: LF: DLF-test Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 19:49:35 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hello to all LF`ers, dear friends,
     at first we have to say many many thanks to to all of you, who made QSO´s with us or gave us reports, info and tips by mail or phone. And we should like to thank the officials from RegTP and Deutsche Telekom who allowed us the activity from the DLF-site and gave us every support.
      I`ll give a summary.
The first QSO took place at 8.45utc, testing with 1W, 5W and 20W (0.3A antenna current), the last QSO was abt 14.00utc because of an approaching thunderstorm 70Km apart. We made 19 QSO´s, 10 only on 136KHz, 9 duplex 136/7030KHz. We received 7 phone calls, the northernmost from Jan, LA8AK in Kristiansand.
And we got mails from 16 different OM´s with a lot of reports, measurements, tips and comments. The southernmost came from Brian CT1DRP (we are glad to be the first audible signal for you and the friends from Spain).
      In the morning Markus matched the antenna with a homemade tuner by using scope and other equipment and got 1,9A antenna current. In the afternoon he connected the antenna directly to the amplifier - and got 2,2A ! One should do the simple things first.
      It seems the DLF-antenna is especially made for our band.
Dave, I think your 5W are enough for a QSO. But the Frankfurt-area-noise is very strong - even on 40m. And so was the local noise composed:
The LF`er keying on 136 QSX 7030. In the background other boys of the gang talking. A signal comes from the 40m-transceiver by speaker (headphones forgotten),
not so clear. The LF`er increases volume. The boys increasing their loudness. The LF`er screaming "haltet mal die Klappe", what means "be quiet, please". And then the mobile phone ringing and in the rear of the house a worker with his lawn-mower. I think we need better organisation.
      Two LF`ers from Frankfurt visited us, 4 members of the maintenance personnel came along, and even the regional Telekom-boss arrived and asked kindly what happened. During noon 3 of our group drove around and made some measuring of our fieldstrength. We will calculate and compare with the figures from Dick and Jim. Markus will give another e-mail with more technical and calculating details.
     The receiving conditions were bad as expected. We used a tuned loop, but must be better next time ( yes, we hope for a next time). And we will reduce our equipment. It is not necessary to take along 3 complete stations, so much measuring equipment, several boxes with cables, connectors, tools and material for every incident. 2 VW-variants were fullfilled. But now we know more than before.
      We had a great event. Thanks for participating. 
 
For the group: DF6NM Markus, DL2NDO Ralph, DK3GH Ralph, DL3NDR Roland
 
                      73 Walter DJ2LF
 
  
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29457 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 17:48:16 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 17:48:16 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 18272 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 17:48:15 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 17:48:15 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Y96U-0001Lv-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 18:42:14 +0100 Received: from smtp3.wanadoo.nl ([194.134.35.186]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Y96T-0001Lq-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 18:42:13 +0100 Received: from nl9222@wanadoo (i0612.vwr.wanadoo.nl [194.134.210.103]) by smtp3.wanadoo.nl (Postfix) with SMTP id E9A401B556 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 19:42:11 +0200 (MEST) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 19:42:9 +0100 From: "K.Versteeg" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Jason 0.94 tests X-Mailer: FoxMail 2.1 [en] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20020726174211.E9A401B556@smtp3.wanadoo.nl> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 7/26/02 2:08:00 PM, you wrote: >Dear LF Group, > >No reports received so far from last night's Jason tests - so will try >again this evening at the same times - 400mW ERP from 1900 until 2000 utc, >and 40mW ERP from 2000 until 2100 utc, on the same frequency 137.500kHz. >Any reports welcome - even if you get no copy! > >Cheers, Jim Moritz >73 de M0BMU Hi Jim and all.. Not sure if you were able to read mail at home but yesterday's Jason transmission was received fine here. Started 19:15 with the "Native Decoder" all text was perfect with 400Mw. Switched to the "KK7A Decoder" somewhat later wich performed different, replacing good for bad characters at times.. Text seen: 7Z4BMP JASON94 400MW ERP DE MOBMU JASON94 [ WITH NATIVE DECODER] 40SST5RP DE MOBMUU JASON94 40MW EERP DE M0B EU JASON94 400 DE MXEMU JASON94 [ WITH KK7A DECODER] Did not make it until the end but will try tonight for the 40Mw.. 73 de Ko, NL9222 From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11175 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 16:46:22 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 16:46:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 29284 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 16:46:22 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 16:46:22 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Y8B1-0001Ak-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:42:51 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Y8B0-0001Ad-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:42:50 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17Y8Az-0003Fb-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:42:49 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Y8Az-0001pG-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:42:49 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020726171404.00ab9d08@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:42:45 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: LF In-reply-to: <000e01c234f2$285feb60$6f1aebc3@BI57429bankinter> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 17:16 26/07/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Hi all the Group: > >I´d like to know if the signals I received yesterday, from 19:50 up to >20:00 UTC, on 137.500 Khz, could be the beacon transmission of James >(M0BMU). The signals visualized by ARGO (3 seconds) were a kind of >differential CW or so, with a shift of some 2 or 3 Hz. Dear Jose, LF Group, Thanks for the report - that certainly sounds like my Jason signal. As I mentioned before, I will be transmitting again this evening at the same times. I would be happy to try for a cross-band QSO, so I will listen on 20m during this evening's transmission in case you are around - I can TX/RX on 20m while transmitting on 137k. If not, I will try 3s/dot QRSS tomorrow morning between about 0800 and 1000 utc, close to 137.6kHz and again listen on 20m during the transmission. Not sure about what exact frequency on 20m would be best - how about 14.030kHz +/-? Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU PS. I don't have internet facilities at home - I will come into work tomorrow after 1000 and have a look at the reflector, to see if anything has happened.... From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11937 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 15:40:10 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 15:40:10 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 13736 invoked by uid 10001); 26 Jul 2002 15:44:49 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 15:44:49 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Y79H-0000xl-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:36:59 +0100 Received: from imo-d09.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.41]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Y79G-0000xH-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:36:58 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.114.14ded542 (4411) for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:36:25 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <114.14ded542.2a72c679@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:36:25 EDT Subject: Re: LF: Jason 0.94 tests To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows XP DE sub 50 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hello Jim,
RRR - here at least one report:
Sorry, didn't successfully decode you yesterday. There was "something" on the waterfall but not you I'm afraid.
Will try again tonight from the club station.

Regards,
Wolf DL4YHF.

P.S. There is an unknown Joker at Compuserve.de using my callsign as user name. That's not me !
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21456 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 15:22:11 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 15:22:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 13892 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 15:21:45 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 15:21:45 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Y6qX-0000tH-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:17:37 +0100 Received: from dns.bankinter.es ([195.235.30.34] helo=smtp.bankinter.es) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Y6qX-0000tC-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:17:37 +0100 Received: from BI57429bankinter (h026111.nexo.es [195.235.26.111]) by smtp.bankinter.es (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id RAA12979 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:17:35 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <000e01c234f2$285feb60$6f1aebc3@BI57429bankinter> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Manuel?= To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: LF Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:16:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hi all the Group:
 
I´d like to know if the signals I received yesterday, from 19:50 up to 20:00 UTC, on 137.500 Khz, could be the beacon transmission of James (M0BMU). The signals visualized by ARGO (3 seconds) were a kind of differential CW or so, with a shift of some 2 or 3 Hz.
I began working on LF two days ago, when I received the solid signal from the DLF site, on aural CW, operated by DL2NDO, DF6NM and DJ2LF, between 09:39 and 14:30 UTC. Unfortunately I couldn´t make a crossband QSO on 7030 Khz due to propagations conditions for the path.
I also copied to Brian, CT1DRP, on the same mode, at 10:36.
I´ll appreciate information about possible activity, on saturday morning, of any station on the south coast of England. I can transmit on 40 or 20m for possible crossband QSO.
 
Tnx to all
 
                            José Manuel, EA1PX
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24360 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 13:39:40 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 13:39:40 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: (qmail 14632 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 13:39:39 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 13:39:38 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Y5Gs-0000Yi-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:36:42 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Y5Gs-0000Yd-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:36:42 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 4006 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 13:36:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ukfw1.ge.boc.com) (193.131.2.157) by server-12.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 13:36:31 -0000 Received: from z-160-100-160-136.est.ibm.com ([160.100.160.136]) by ukfw1.ge.boc.com; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:36:29 +0100 (BST) Received: from exc_wil04.edwards.boc.com ([162.118.144.226]) by exc_cra03.edwards.boc.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id PPDP1M6W; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:39:01 +0100 Received: by EXC_WIL04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:44:36 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, lowfer@mailman.qth.net Subject: LF: RE: Re: [Lowfer] LPT/Parallel port setup for transmitting??? Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:24:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: All, What pin #s on the parallel port are the correct ones to use for this program?? Bill A -----Original Message----- From: Bob Roehrig [mailto:broehrig@aurora.edu] Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 8:23 PM To: lowfer@mailman.qth.net Cc: Post Rsgb_Lf_Group Subject: LF: Re: [Lowfer] LPT/Parallel port setup for transmitting??? On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, WE0H wrote: > I am using Windows 3.11 with the QRS 3.17 program and keyer design that > comes with the program. > I have tried a DOS program from Lyle (K0LR) and his program didn't > switch any of the lines either. Is there something I need to do in > Windows to get the port running??? It has been my experience that you can't run some DOS programs via Windoze in that Windoze controls the ports, not the DOS program. I run a modified version of Lyle's program (in BASIC) on my 3.11 machine but I run it form DOS - not starting Win and all works fine. Bob Roehrig Aurora University Telecom/IS dept. broehrig@aurora.edu 73 de K9EUI _ _____________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by the WorldCom Internet Managed Scanning Service - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.worldcom.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3408 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 13:15:59 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 13:15:59 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 26685 invoked by uid 10001); 26 Jul 2002 13:20:39 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 13:20:39 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Y4pb-0000Tt-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:08:31 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Y4pa-0000To-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:08:30 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17Y4pa-0007Ai-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:08:30 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Y4pZ-0002nq-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:08:29 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020726140304.00ae6518@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:08:28 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: LF: Jason 0.94 tests MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF Group, No reports received so far from last night's Jason tests - so will try again this evening at the same times - 400mW ERP from 1900 until 2000 utc, and 40mW ERP from 2000 until 2100 utc, on the same frequency 137.500kHz. Any reports welcome - even if you get no copy! Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6597 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 09:36:38 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 09:36:38 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 16118 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 09:36:38 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 09:36:38 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Y1TE-0008PK-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:33:12 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Y1TE-0008PF-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:33:12 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17Y1TD-0000vp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:33:11 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Y1TD-0002x6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:33:11 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020726102807.00ab94b0@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:33:10 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: LPT/Parallel port setup for transmitting??? In-reply-to: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 18:25 25/07/2002 -0500, you wrote: >I am using Windows 3.11 with the QRS 3.17 program and keyer design that >comes with the program. I am keying an Epson Oscillator with a 10k resistor >in series with the collector of the NPN transistor. I am using pin 2 of the >LPT port.... I have not tried the parallel port, but QRS 3.17 certainly works the COM port OK on my old 386 laptop running Windows 3.1. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27455 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 08:29:58 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 08:29:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 17377 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 08:29:56 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 08:29:55 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Y0NU-0008DP-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:23:12 +0100 Received: from d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com ([195.212.91.200]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Y0NT-0008Cm-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:23:11 +0100 Received: from d12relay02.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.de.ibm.com [9.165.215.23]) by d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g6Q8MWmg025458; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:22:33 +0200 Received: from usa.net (ss1.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.66]) by d12relay02.de.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/NCO/VER6.2) with ESMTP id g6Q8MUv122818; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:22:31 +0200 Message-ID: <3D410673.83AF7902@usa.net> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:21:07 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Cc: lowfer@mailman.qth.net Subject: LF: Re: LPT/Parallel port setup for transmitting??? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Bob Roehrig wrote: > On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, WE0H wrote: > > > I am using Windows 3.11 with the QRS 3.17 program and keyer design that > > comes with the program. > > > I have tried a DOS program from Lyle (K0LR) and his program didn't > > switch any of the lines either. Is there something I need to do in > > Windows to get the port running??? > > It has been my experience that you can't run some DOS programs via > Windoze in that Windoze controls the ports, not the DOS program. Hmmm, I would rather check the parallel port address of the LPT port you are using. DOS programs that use the parallel port under Windows are known to work, especially with the old Windows 3.11, which didn't enforce any form of protection. Probably you are addressing the wrong port. Usually LPT1 is 0x378, and LPT2 is 0x278, but other variations do exist. 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26851 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2002 00:26:57 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 00:26:57 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 26661 invoked by uid 10001); 26 Jul 2002 00:31:39 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jul 2002 00:31:38 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Xsth-0006zF-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 01:23:57 +0100 Received: from mail.aurora.edu ([64.107.89.49]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Xstf-0006z8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 01:23:56 +0100 Received: from localhost (broehrig@localhost) by mail.aurora.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g6Q0NOXU150403; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:23:24 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:23:24 -0500 (CDT) From: "Bob Roehrig" To: lowfer@mailman.qth.net Cc: "Post Rsgb_Lf_Group" Subject: LF: Re: [Lowfer] LPT/Parallel port setup for transmitting??? In-reply-to: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, WE0H wrote: > I am using Windows 3.11 with the QRS 3.17 program and keyer design that > comes with the program. > I have tried a DOS program from Lyle (K0LR) and his program didn't > switch any of the lines either. Is there something I need to do in > Windows to get the port running??? It has been my experience that you can't run some DOS programs via Windoze in that Windoze controls the ports, not the DOS program. I run a modified version of Lyle's program (in BASIC) on my 3.11 machine but I run it form DOS - not starting Win and all works fine. Bob Roehrig Aurora University Telecom/IS dept. broehrig@aurora.edu 73 de K9EUI From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1565 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2002 23:36:34 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 25 Jul 2002 23:36:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 13766 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2002 23:36:31 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 25 Jul 2002 23:36:31 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XrzL-0006oU-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 00:25:43 +0100 Received: from mail6.mx.voyager.net ([216.93.66.205]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XrzJ-0006oP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 00:25:42 +0100 Received: from k6500 (d11.as3.mpls.mn.voyager.net [169.207.249.235] (may be forged)) by mail6.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id g6PNPd727027; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:25:39 -0400 (EDT) From: "WE0H" To: "Post Rsgb_Lf_Group" , lowfer@mailman.qth.net Subject: LF: LPT/Parallel port setup for transmitting??? Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 18:25:45 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: High Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I am using Windows 3.11 with the QRS 3.17 program and keyer design that comes with the program. I am keying an Epson Oscillator with a 10k resistor in series with the collector of the NPN transistor. I am using pin 2 of the LPT port. Pins 18 thru 25 are tied together and to the transmitters ground. I am not getting any keying and don't see any change in voltage on pin 2. I have tried a DOS program from Lyle (K0LR) and his program didn't switch any of the lines either. Is there something I need to do in Windows to get the port running??? I am ready to give up and go with a memory keyer real soon. Thanks es 73's, Mike>WE0H http://www.we0h.us/lf.html 185.303kc QRSS/CW ID is "WE" Not on yet... From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21004 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2002 18:04:55 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 25 Jul 2002 18:04:55 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 4404 invoked by uid 10001); 25 Jul 2002 18:09:36 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 25 Jul 2002 18:09:35 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Xmvf-0005uS-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:01:35 +0100 Received: from imo-m03.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Xmve-0005uM-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:01:34 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.36.2afa1e88 (4238) for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:00:57 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <36.2afa1e88.2a7196d8@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:00:56 EDT Subject: Re: LF: Jason 0.94 test? To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows XP DE sub 50 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Dear Jim, Alberto, Stewart and Group,

Just played around with Jason V0.94. Phantastic ! Perfect decode of an old wave file recorded in a previous test transmission from M0BMU which gave no copy at all with the old decoder (guess it is the file sent to Stewart some time ago, filename "m0bmu_3w_2k3.wav"). Its interesting to see the KK7KA-decoder erase old characters from the screen, I guess it kind of 'revises' the old data once time & freq sync is achieved... and makes a new attempt to decode.

Will listen tonight from my home location, with lots of local QRM (don't need QRN to give the decoder a tough job ;-)

GL and TNX for making the software available.

Regards,
 Wolf  DL4YHF From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10834 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2002 16:33:39 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 25 Jul 2002 16:33:39 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 15487 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2002 16:33:38 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 25 Jul 2002 16:33:38 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XlRg-0005dX-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:26:32 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XlRg-0005dS-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:26:32 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17XlRf-0007Yi-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:26:31 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XlRe-00062t-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:26:30 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020725171257.00ab8a28@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:26:28 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: LF: Jason 0.94 test? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF group, If tonight is anything like last night on 136k, it will be very noisy - so perhaps a good opportunity to test the new decoding facilities in the latest version of Jason - I propose to transmit a beacon signal tonight on 137.500kHz, from 1900 - 2000 utc at 400mW ERP, followed by 40mW ERP from 2000 - 2100 utc (assuming everything still works!). Any reports would be welcome. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8196 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2002 12:28:25 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 25 Jul 2002 12:28:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 12159 invoked by uid 10001); 25 Jul 2002 12:33:05 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 25 Jul 2002 12:33:05 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XhgH-0004w4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:25:21 +0100 Received: from d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.5]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XhgH-0004vx-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:25:21 +0100 Received: from d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.166.84.148]) by d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com (1.0.0) with ESMTP id NAA43090; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:21:45 +0100 Received: from usa.net (ss10.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.76]) by d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/NCO/VER6.2) with ESMTP id g6PCJpR58030; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:19:52 +0100 Message-ID: <3D3FEC8E.A671A5A3@usa.net> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:18:22 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, lowfer@mailman.qth.net, lf@amrad.org Subject: LF: Re: Jason V0.94 References: <20020723.212259.-691071.2.riese-k3djc@juno.com> <3D3E90C1.2542A90E@usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > I have downloaded Jason 0.94, but I get the following message upon trying to > run the extracted program: > > Linked to missing export OLEAUT32.DLL:173 Should someone have that problem, the updated OLEAUT32.DLL is now downloadable from here : http://www.weaksignals.com/bin/oleaut32.zip Expand the ZIP file into the \windows\system directory and answer yes to the question about replacing an existent file. 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28626 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2002 12:01:54 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 25 Jul 2002 12:01:54 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 21139 invoked by uid 10001); 25 Jul 2002 12:06:33 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 25 Jul 2002 12:06:32 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XhEf-0004oK-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 12:56:49 +0100 Received: from mailgate4.cinetic.de ([217.72.192.167]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XhEe-0004oF-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 12:56:48 +0100 Received: from web.de (fmomail01.dlan.cinetic.de [172.20.1.45]) by mailgate4.cinetic.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.0-0.4) with SMTP id g6PBuCW01935 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:56:13 +0200 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:56:13 +0200 Message-ID: <200207251156.g6PBuCW01935@mailgate4.cinetic.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Organization: http://freemail.web.de/ From: "Hans-Albrecht Haffa" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: DLF activity by DJ2LF, DF6NM et al Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------000109090104010305000302" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000109090104010305000302 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org schrieb am 24.07.02 19:32:30 -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht wurde als Attachment angehängt.-----
Von:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Gesendet:24.07.02 19:32:30
An:"Hans-Albrecht Haffa" <haffaha@web.de>
Betreff:Re: LF: DLF activity by DJ2LF, DF6NM et al
Hello Walter, Markus and group,

thanks for triggering the activity. I took a miniature direct conversion RX with a ferrite antenna to the office, and so could observe the CW transmission the whole day. From DF6NM today:
>
> ".. = pwr nw 180 watts and fb antenna hi = ..."
>
Yes indeed... now you should convince the DLF engineers to do the next transmitter maintenance during a quiet winter's night ;-)

Regards,
 Wolf DL4YHF / DF0WD


 --------------000109090104010305000302 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; name="ATT10104.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ATT10104.txt" LS0tLS1VcnNwcvxuZ2xpY2hlIE5hY2hyaWNodCAoSFRNTCkgd3VyZGUgYWxzIEFubGFnZSBi ZWlnZWb8Z3QuLS0tLS0NClZvbjogICAgICByc2diX2xmX2dyb3VwQGJsYWNrc2hlZXAub3Jn DQpHZXNlbmRldDogMjQuMDcuMDIgMTk6MzI6MzANCkFuOiAgICAgICAiSGFucy1BbGJyZWNo dCBIYWZmYSIgPGhhZmZhaGFAd2ViLmRlPg0KQmV0cmVmZiBETEYgYWN0aXZpdHkgYnkgREoy TEYsIERGNk5NIGV0IGFsDQoNCkEgdnkgbmljZSBzdHJvbmcgc2lnbmFsLCBoZXJlIGluIFNv dXRoIEdlcm1hbnkgbnIuIFN0dXR0Z2FydCAobG9jLiBKTjQ4VVEpDQogYnV0IEkgY291bGRu YHQgZ2V0IGludG8gY29udGFjdCB3aXRoIERGNk5NIGluIHRoZSBsYXN0IGhvdXIgb2Ygb3Bl cmF0aW9uLiANCiBMZXRzIHdhaXQgYW5kIHRyeSBhZ2Fpbi4NCg0KSGFucy1BbGJyZWNodA0K REsgOCBORA0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCldFQi5ERSBNeVBhZ2UgLSBV bHRpbWF0aXZlcyBLb21tdW5pa2F0aW9uc3Rvb2whIElocmUgTWVzc2FnZSBzb2ZvcnQNCm9u bGluZSEgRG9tYWluIGFlbmRlcmJhciEgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5kYXMuaXN0LmFiZXIubmUubHVz dGlnZS5zYWNoZS5tcy8= --------------000109090104010305000302-- From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22487 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2002 05:39:03 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 25 Jul 2002 05:39:03 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 16943 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2002 05:39:03 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 25 Jul 2002 05:39:02 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XbEa-0003h0-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 06:32:20 +0100 Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.93]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XbEZ-0003gv-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 06:32:19 +0100 Received: from host213-1-112-223.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.1.112.223] helo=dave) by rhenium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17XbEX-0006cH-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 06:32:18 +0100 From: "Dave Sergeant" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 06:34:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: LF: DJ2LF/P Message-ID: <3D3F9BDE.9701.3587F@localhost> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Mail message body Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Well Walter was coming in well over S9 most of Wednesday, as predicted a pretty big signal. He seemed to be suffering with the same problem which has blighted all these big tower operations however - poor receive due to high noise level. Having heard some of the reports being given it seemed pointless for me to try calling on 136. I did however have a partial contact crossband to 7030. However due to a major solar storm all the hf bands were effectively wiped out - it seems 136 was the only band anywhere with propagation! We exchanged callsigns, but then the 40m signals faded and that was that. Oh, and of course you were 599 Walter -thanks for the 449, my 5W usually gets a lot better to DL than that but it was not your fault! By the way 7030 is the international QRP frequency and is by far the most active of the hf band QRP frequencies. It may be preferable to use a different frequency for crossband operations especially for QRO tests. But it wouldn't have made any difference today. 73s Dave G3YMC dsergeant@iee.org dsergeant@btinternet.com http://www.dsergeant.btinternet.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3260 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 23:39:12 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 23:39:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 11337 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 23:39:12 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 23:39:12 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XVfp-0002b4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:36:05 +0100 Received: from carbon.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.92] helo=carbon) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XVfo-0002az-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:36:04 +0100 Received: from host62-7-114-16.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.7.114.16] helo=main) by carbon with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17XVfn-0003Z9-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:36:03 +0100 Message-ID: <000101c2336a$e10a6520$1072073e@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: Jason timing Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:14:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, MMmmm yes I agree there is probably no advantage to be gained in the decoder if the decoding is not synchronous, however it was somewhat frustrating in watching the weak signal from Johan the other night on 80m to see bits of tone 'uncovered' as the noise subsided but get no letter decode for many element periods. It might have been easier to decode by eye. I got the feeling that the decoder "lost the plot" on occasions. The tone step was often very distinct on the waterfall, but still no character was displayed. The cursor did not advance, as it was waiting for a strong signal to appearfor a full element. This is probably a function of the characteristics of the noise, very loud crashes, sometimes in bursts but often a couple of quiet minutes. Unfortunately this was done late at night and I did not record any of it. It will obviously be interesting to try the new version with the two decoders when Johan fires up again. The effects of the static were very similar to that we experience on LF but there was I think some fading on 80m as well. Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 292 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 21:32:15 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 21:32:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 11357 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 21:32:13 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 21:32:13 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XTeV-000260-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:26:35 +0100 Received: from mail02.ifx.com.br ([200.201.133.84] helo=mail01.ifx.com.br) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XTeT-00025o-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:26:34 +0100 Received: (qmail 31158 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 21:25:57 -0000 Received: from 200-201-142-252.ras01.spo.dial-up.ifxnetworks.com.br (HELO mramos) (200.201.142.252) by mail01.ifx.com.br with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 21:25:57 -0000 Message-ID: <002601c23358$b7df5280$50aec5c8@mramos> From: "PY3CRX PY2PLL" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000c01c23323$0adfb460$95e8fc3e@l8p8y6> Subject: LF: Anybody at 136.500,02 ??? Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:21:39 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I have some signal at 136.500,02 ... is any activity there? Which mode? normal speed morse ? Running a 30m high monopole, 100Hz IF filter + Spectran ... quiet sky ... Or any other signal at 21:20 UTC afterwards ? 73 Marcus, PY3CRX/PY2PLL GG66rf http://py.qsl.br Active from "DC" to 24GHz From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22154 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 21:16:10 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 21:16:10 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 2908 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 21:16:10 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 21:16:10 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XTOm-00021l-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:10:20 +0100 Received: from imo-m03.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XTOl-00021J-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:10:19 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.117.14e608a5 (3699) for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:09:46 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <117.14e608a5.2a707199@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:09:45 EDT Subject: Re: LF: DL2NDO/P (-> noise level estimation) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows XP DE sub 50 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hello Jim and group,

>> You could also do a similar calculation using SpecLab to calibrate the
signal level - here you have to take care not to adjust the RX gain (and
keep the AGC turned off) between calibrating and measuring. To interpret
the noise level you would have to take the bandwidth/resolution settings
into account.
<<

Agreed, if you are using the function "noise(f1,f2)" to do this. It returns the noise level as seen on the waterfall/spectrum, so it depends on the frequency resolution (or, in other words, the decimation- and FFT-gain). But there is another function noise_n(..) which does basically the same, but normalizes the noise level for a 1-Hz-RX bandwidth, taking the FFT bin width into account.
Be aware to set the frequency range in which the noise is measured away from the edges of the IF filter's edge, and don't make the observed frequency range too narrow. You may find yourself observing the noisy slopes of hard-keyed (clicking) CW signals, etc....
By the way - the noise( ) - function is is based on an algorithm described by Andy 'JNT.

Regards,
Wolf DL4YHF
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18426 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 20:02:30 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 20:02:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 2733 invoked by uid 10001); 24 Jul 2002 20:07:09 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 20:07:09 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XSEH-0001l7-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:55:25 +0100 Received: from iceman.esoterica.pt ([195.22.0.27]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XSEG-0001l2-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:55:25 +0100 Received: from srv17slx.esoterica.pt (srv17slx.esoterica.pt [195.22.0.47]) by iceman.esoterica.pt (8.12.3/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6OJppGZ021154 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:51:51 +0100 Received: from slave-6 (por208.esoterica.pt [195.22.5.208]) by srv17slx.esoterica.pt (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g6OJtMI01069 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:55:22 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020724195804.00a5f6a0@pop3.esoterica.pt> X-Sender: brian@pop3.esoterica.pt (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:58:04 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Brian Rogerson" Subject: Re: LF: Re: Activity from Deutschlandfunk Antenna In-reply-to: <003001c2333e$745c7340$06e5fc3e@l8p8y6> References: <3.0.5.32.20020724101244.00a54a30@pop3.esoterica.pt> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: To all the German operators my sincere thanks and very well done. There is an Argo-gram of DF6NM/P on my web pages. To Mal, providing the calibration of my system is not too far off the highest field strength received was -2dBuV/m at 11:54utc and I was only "just" hearing some of the transmission in the noise. The noise floor is -10dBuV/m in 1Hz always remembering the sampling parameters set within SpecLab. Do you really think that I would even be able to find a 1watt ERP transmission at over 1000Km with ears alone during daylight? Nevertheless I was overjoyed to actually "hear" an LF transmission for the first time and copy "BMU" during the QSO with Jim. Thanks again for an exciting day, Brian At 19:17 24/07/2002 +0100, you wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brian Rogerson" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 10:12 AM >Subject: Re: LF: Re: Activity from Deutschlandfunk Antenna > > >Very pleased to report that the signal is now being received on 136.5KHz >both in Coruña and Porto, and in Porto it is "just" audible in the noise on >the loudspeaker. Brian > >Just what I said some years back Brian, at your distance the signal should >have blasted you out, but still glad you heard a signal for a change, >instead of watching. >I had a report from the EA/CT border a couple of years ago of 579, also a >similar report from 9H1, that is why I have been surprised in the past that >you could not hear any signals. > >73 de Mal/G3KEV > > > > > > > >Dear LF Group, > >While talking to Alan on the phone I was lucky enough to hear >the transmission start up from the background noise of his receiver >and even I was able to read DJ. I have never heard hand speed >cw on LF before in spite of Mal's optimistic predictions. On >136.52KHz and Argo 3 seconds there is a weak but unidentifiable >signal. > >If at all possible to send a little QRSS for those listening in North >West Iberia it would be very much appreciated. > >Best 73 and good luck, Brian > > > > > > > > >At 18:34 23/07/2002 +0100, you wrote: >>Dear LF Group, >> >>Will be listening out tomorrow morning for activity from DLF site - good >>luck to all involved! >> >>Cheers, Jim Moritz >>73 de M0BMU >> >> >> >> >73 Brian CT1DRP IN51QD 41 09 58N 08 39 11W >http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~brian > > > > > > > 73 Brian CT1DRP IN51QD 41 09 58N 08 39 11W http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~brian From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17236 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 18:25:23 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 18:25:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 6333 invoked by uid 10001); 24 Jul 2002 18:30:03 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 18:30:03 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XQhM-0001Q4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:17:20 +0100 Received: from mta1-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.41]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XQhL-0001Pz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:17:19 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.204.152]) by mta1-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020724181719.QIMV19938.mta1-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:17:19 +0100 Message-ID: <003001c2333e$745c7340$06e5fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3.0.5.32.20020724101244.00a54a30@pop3.esoterica.pt> Subject: Re: LF: Re: Activity from Deutschlandfunk Antenna Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:17:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Rogerson" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 10:12 AM Subject: Re: LF: Re: Activity from Deutschlandfunk Antenna Very pleased to report that the signal is now being received on 136.5KHz both in Coruña and Porto, and in Porto it is "just" audible in the noise on the loudspeaker. Brian Just what I said some years back Brian, at your distance the signal should have blasted you out, but still glad you heard a signal for a change, instead of watching. I had a report from the EA/CT border a couple of years ago of 579, also a similar report from 9H1, that is why I have been surprised in the past that you could not hear any signals. 73 de Mal/G3KEV Dear LF Group, While talking to Alan on the phone I was lucky enough to hear the transmission start up from the background noise of his receiver and even I was able to read DJ. I have never heard hand speed cw on LF before in spite of Mal's optimistic predictions. On 136.52KHz and Argo 3 seconds there is a weak but unidentifiable signal. If at all possible to send a little QRSS for those listening in North West Iberia it would be very much appreciated. Best 73 and good luck, Brian At 18:34 23/07/2002 +0100, you wrote: >Dear LF Group, > >Will be listening out tomorrow morning for activity from DLF site - good >luck to all involved! > >Cheers, Jim Moritz >73 de M0BMU > > > > 73 Brian CT1DRP IN51QD 41 09 58N 08 39 11W http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~brian From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2933 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 18:23:06 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 18:23:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 4825 invoked by uid 10001); 24 Jul 2002 18:27:46 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 18:27:45 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XQhK-0001Px-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:17:18 +0100 Received: from mta1-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.41]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XQhJ-0001Ps-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:17:17 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.204.152]) by mta1-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020724181716.QIMO19938.mta1-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:17:16 +0100 Message-ID: <002f01c2333e$72fd7f80$06e5fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: g0mbu info Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:12:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hello Jim
Sri to mislead you about loop direction. The loop is broadside N/S so max sig on LF is E/W.
Back to the drawing board hi
My vertical has a big advantage over the loop but not operational at present, think it was about 30 db better than the loop. The vert is being re furbished with new ant wire and radials at present, getting ready for the DX season !!!!!!!!!!!!
 
g3kev
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1898 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 18:09:25 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 18:09:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 25856 invoked by uid 10001); 24 Jul 2002 18:14:05 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 18:14:05 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XQUE-0001MM-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:03:46 +0100 Received: from mta1-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.41]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XQUD-0001MG-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:03:46 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.229.6]) by mta1-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020724180345.QCSA19938.mta1-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:03:45 +0100 Message-ID: <001601c2333c$8f47d8e0$06e5fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: measure Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:04:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Today DCF39/138.83 KHZ measured -29 db on the spm12 at the same time as DL2NDO/P measured -50 db. It looks like DCF has a 21 db advantage.
The loop is broadside  N/S so on LF as a small loop it has max sig E/W
G3KEV
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18092 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 18:03:21 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 18:03:21 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 5628 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 18:03:21 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 18:03:21 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XQOU-0001KI-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:57:50 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XQOT-0001KD-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:57:49 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17XQOT-0004ev-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:57:49 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XQOS-0004wb-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:57:48 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020724171432.00a84530@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:57:37 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: DL2NDO/P In-reply-to: <000c01c23323$0adfb460$95e8fc3e@l8p8y6> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Mal, LF Group At 16:01 24/07/2002 +0100, you wrote: >For those that like figures and data to speculate, invent or guess erp >emitted by others on LF, I measured the signal today from DL2NDO/P and >other associated callsigns used at various times. >on 136.5 khz. > >Level meter SPM-12 (calibrated) Time 1020 utc > >Signal level -50 db >Noise floor -90db >Signal above noise -40 db > OK then - the problem here is that these are only relative measurements, so it is not possible to derrive field strength or ERP from them. But we can estimate a value for the field strength of DL2NDO/P at your QTH using the previously determined ERP of around 160W. At a range of 845km, and using G4FGQ's software with "type 4" ground again, this comes to 31dBuV/m. This gives us the basis of a rough calibration for your antenna/receiver. The bearing from your QTH to Donnebach is about 125degrees, while your ant has maximum pick-up on 0/180 degrees, so the effective signal level is reduced by a factor of 20 log[cos(180-125)], which is -4.8 dB. Therefore, if your antenna were aligned on Donnebach, you would get a signal level of -45.2dB. This makes the "antenna factor" (31+45.2) = 76.2dB. Then, to measure the field strength of other signals, you will have to calculate a further factor of -20log(cos [theta]), where the angle theta is the difference in bearing between the source of the signal,and the maximum of the antenna, to compensate for the signal and antenna not being aligned (one reason why it is handy to be able to turn a loop!). Add this factor plus the antenna factor to the signal level reading to get field strength in dBuV/m - eg: -50dB (sig level) +4.8dB (bearing correction) + 76.2dB (antenna factor) = 31dBuV/m -Back to were we started. This is only a very rough calibration of course, since it is very indirect with many sources of error, but it gives you a reasonable idea, so better than speculating, guessing and inventing. You can do a similar calculation with DCF39 to check. Of course, changing the tuning, input impedance, antenna etc will need a re-calibration. Using these figures, your noise floor works out to -13.8dBuV/m in 25Hz, or about -3dBuV/m in 300Hz, which is quite similar to what I get here under good conditions. You could also do a similar calculation using SpecLab to calibrate the signal level - here you have to take care not to adjust the RX gain (and keep the AGC turned off) between calibrating and measuring. To interpret the noise level you would have to take the bandwidth/resolution settings into account. .....No attempt here to interpret or calculate voltage at rx input.... This depends on how you have set up the SPM12 - if you have set it to read dBu, then the reading is in decibels relative to 0.775V, so is a direct measurement of voltage anyway. If set to dBm, then it is measuring input power, and you would have to take into account the input impedance to get the input voltage. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8273 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 17:20:54 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 17:20:54 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 19248 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 17:20:53 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 17:20:53 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XPen-0001Aq-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:10:37 +0100 Received: from imo-r08.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.104]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XPem-0001Ak-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:10:36 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.134.11b6d8f5 (4256) for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:10:00 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <134.11b6d8f5.2a703967@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:09:59 EDT Subject: LF: DLF activity by DJ2LF, DF6NM et al To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows XP DE sub 50 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hello Walter, Markus and group,

thanks for triggering the activity. I took a miniature direct conversion RX with a ferrite antenna to the office, and so could observe the CW transmission the whole day. From DF6NM today:
>
> ".. = pwr nw 180 watts and fb antenna hi = ..."
>
Yes indeed... now you should convince the DLF engineers to do the next transmitter maintenance during a quiet winter's night ;-)

Regards,
 Wolf DL4YHF / DF0WD


From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27794 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 17:18:09 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 17:18:09 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 26587 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 17:18:09 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 17:18:08 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XPep-0001Aw-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:10:39 +0100 Received: from imo-r07.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.103]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XPeo-0001Al-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:10:38 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.151.114c6ce3 (4256) for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:09:59 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <151.114c6ce3.2a703967@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:09:59 EDT Subject: RE: LF: Sound Cards To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows XP DE sub 50 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hi Andy,

Thanks for the info. I will take a look for other controllers, possibly a "MicroConverter" from Analog Devices (8051 core, 8k FLASH, ADC with 12..24 bit resolution). Disadvantage: 52-pin PQFP case is not really home-brew friendly...

Regards,
Wolf DL4YHF. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8536 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 15:51:00 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 15:51:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 29974 invoked by uid 10001); 24 Jul 2002 15:54:39 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 15:54:38 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XOIG-0000sS-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:43:16 +0100 Received: from d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com ([195.212.91.201]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XOIF-0000sI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:43:15 +0100 Received: from d12relay02.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.de.ibm.com [9.165.215.23]) by d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g6OFgbhF024874 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:42:42 +0200 Received: from usa.net (ss9.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.75]) by d12relay02.de.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/NCO/VER6.2) with ESMTP id g6OFgaL50304 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:42:37 +0200 Message-ID: <3D3ECA9A.FDA2687D@usa.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:41:14 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: Jason code on DDS Module References: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9B3D@mail.dstl.gov.uk> <3D3EC275.5261F1A1@usa.net> <002701c23325$323d9b60$ee2465d5@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Johan Bodin wrote: > Alberto I2PHD wrote: > > > The only true requirement is to obey to the time/frequency > > duality, which imposes a baud duration at least equal to the > > inverse of the FFT bin, 0.084114.... Hz. > > Is this true for Stewarts decoder too? I will leave to Stewart to answer about the dependency of his decoder from timing. My guess, based on the examination of his code, is that it also is not much critical about the baud duration. 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12220 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 15:27:07 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 15:27:07 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 19996 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 15:24:00 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 15:24:00 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XNuB-0000j9-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:18:23 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XNuA-0000j4-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:18:22 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17XNu9-0001re-00; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:18:21 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XNu8-0007i3-00; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:18:20 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020724141345.00aa3bd8@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:18:18 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, dj2lf@darc.de, markusvester@aol.com, "Reg Edwards" From: "James Moritz" Subject: LF: Re: Activity from Deutschlandfunk Antenna In-reply-to: <3.0.5.32.20020724101244.00a54a30@pop3.esoterica.pt> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Walter, Markus and friends, Reg, LF Group, Very pleased to work DJ2LF/P this morning, both on 136k and cross-band 40m/136k. I was running the usual 1200W + inverted L at 9m on LF, plus an IC718 with a dipole on 40m.Their signal was 579 even when running 1W TX power, and was obviously very strong when running the full 200W. I also measured the field strength using a 4m^2 single turn loop antenna with an SPM-19 selective level meter. Running full power, DJ2LF/P measured between 35dBuV/m and 36.5dBuV/m, about 60uV/m on average, in IO91VR. At a distance of 705km, this works out to 36W ERP over perfect, flat ground - using G4FGQ's grndwav3 program, and assuming "type 4" ground (this seemed the best compromise of the several choices available), ground & diffraction losses account for an additional 6.7dB, making the actual ERP 167W - this is within 0.5dB of the figure obtained by PA0SE. If my ERP is about 400mW, turning the above calculations around gives my field strength in JN49ON as about 3uV/m, so reception there is actually not too bad. For comparison, DCF39 on the same antenna measures as 57dBuV/m, at a distance of 828km, an ERP over perfect ground of 7.0kW. And assuming the same ground type as before, ground loss is 9dB, giving an actual ERP of 55kW. I believe the usual figure quoted is 40kW, so agreeing within 1.5dB. I calculated the antenna calibration factor simply from the area of the loop and the impedance levels, so as a further cross-check I also measured DCF39 using my ferrite rod measuring antenna, previously calibrated using a Helmholz coil set-up. This measured DCF 39 at 56.4dBuV/m, so only 0.6dB difference between two completely different measuring antennas, calibrated in different ways, which inspires a good degree of confidence. So thanks to all in Donnebach; It looks like the DLF mast, our measurements, and Reg's software are all working well today. I look forward to hearing how things were at the TX end! Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20929 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 15:25:46 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 15:25:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 18860 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 15:23:03 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 15:23:02 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XNt8-0000j1-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:17:18 +0100 Received: from fep01.swip.net ([130.244.199.129] helo=fep01-svc.swip.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XNt7-0000iu-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:17:17 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.101.36.238]) by fep01-svc.swip.net with SMTP id <20020724151713.RJU21610.fep01-svc.swip.net@oemcomputer> for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:17:13 +0200 Message-ID: <002701c23325$323d9b60$ee2465d5@oemcomputer> From: "Johan Bodin" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9B3D@mail.dstl.gov.uk> <3D3EC275.5261F1A1@usa.net> Subject: LF: Re: Re: Jason code on DDS Module Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:17:10 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Alberto I2PHD wrote: > The only true requirement is to obey to the time/frequency > duality, which imposes a baud duration at least equal to the > inverse of the FFT bin, 0.084114.... Hz. Is this true for Stewarts decoder too? 73 Johan SM6LKM From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18523 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 15:24:51 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 15:24:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 17894 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 15:22:11 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 15:22:10 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XNrs-0000id-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:16:00 +0100 Received: from mta1-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.41]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XNrr-0000iW-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:15:59 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.232.149]) by mta1-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020724151555.NAEL19938.mta1-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:15:55 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c23323$0adfb460$95e8fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: DL2NDO/P Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:01:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
For those that like figures and data to speculate, invent or guess erp emitted by others on LF, I measured the signal today from DL2NDO/P and other associated callsigns used at various times.
on 136.5 khz.
 
Level meter  SPM-12 (calibrated)                       Time 1020 utc
 
Signal level -50 db
Noise floor -90db
Signal above noise -40 db
 
 
---------------------------
 
Speclab (plotter)
 
Signal -18 db max amplitude
Signal -61 min amplitude
Signal excursion (key up/key down) -43 db
Noise floor indicated -90 db
---------------------------------
 
Antenna type.Vertical Loop,  max signal N/S
 
Loop 124 feet horiz x 40 feet vertical symetrical rectangular = 4960 sq feet
Resonant natural freq 3065 khz
wire 2.5 mm insulated
Loop feed 75 ohm coax, connected to loop at right bottom corner,coax about 150 ft long to shack, parallel tuned for resonance. 
 
Rx shows an increase of 14 db noise gain with antenna connected, no preamp, ant fed direct to rx.  Local environment quiet no hostile local qrm.
 
 
Rx bandwidth 25 hz
My locator IO94SH
 
No attempt here to interpret or calculate voltage at rx input.
Signal steady all day until I went qrt at 1356 utc
 
 
73 de Mal/G3KEV
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4259 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 15:15:26 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 15:15:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 12078 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 15:14:19 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 15:14:19 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XNkA-0000h4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:08:02 +0100 Received: from d06lmsgate-4.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.4]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XNk9-0000gz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:08:01 +0100 Received: from d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.166.84.147]) by d06lmsgate-4.uk.ibm.COM (1.0.0) with ESMTP id PAA123450 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:51:08 +0100 Received: from usa.net (ss9.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.75]) by d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/NCO/VER6.2) with ESMTP id g6OF7qQ72728 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:07:52 +0100 Message-ID: <3D3EC275.5261F1A1@usa.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:06:29 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: Jason code on DDS Module References: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9B3D@mail.dstl.gov.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Talbot Andrew wrote: > Don't see the advantage of GPS timing this mode, the timing is generated by > the Jason driver software. In fact, it may be necessary to ensure a > constant delay through the controller so the updates are consistant, but I > guess a few 100us uncertainty per tone won't matter Correct, as a matter of fact the tolerance is much higher than that. My decoder computes a running statistic of the frequency peaks encountered, and uses this to declare that a new baud is incoming, so the timing requirements are rather relaxed. The only true requirement is to obey to the time/frequency duality, which imposes a baud duration at least equal to the inverse of the FFT bin, 0.084114.... Hz. GPS could be of advantage should Jason use coherent decoding, which in its present form it doesn't. 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24376 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 14:26:26 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 14:26:26 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 19298 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 14:25:19 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 14:25:19 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XN1r-0000Ve-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:22:15 +0100 Received: from relay.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.49]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XN1p-0000VP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:22:13 +0100 Received: (qmail 17126 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 15:22:13 +0100 Received: from butterfly.mod.uk (HELO warlock.dstl.gov.uk) (192.5.29.10) by relay.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 15:22:13 +0100 Message-ID: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9B3D@mail.dstl.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Re: Jason code on DDS Module Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:11:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: The centre frequency would be based on that programmed in from the last update in conventional command mode - and could be that stored in EEPROM. It would be nice to calculate the increment from the stored clock freqeuncy, but as this is stored in a semi-floating BCD format calculation could be a bit hairy. Why did I not define this aspect more carefully and store its binary value :-( Probably will just store the Jason increment value in another section of EEPROM which is set up at the same time as the clock frequency. Alberto's serial code will be multiplied by this increment value and added to the frequency registers to update the DDS immediately. So leading to a potential tone frequency inaccuracy of up to 4 * DDS step size resolution. Don't see the advantage of GPS timing this mode, the timing is generated by the Jason driver software. In fact, it may be necessary to ensure a constant delay through the controller so the updates are consistant, but I guess a few 100us uncertainty per tone won't matter Andy G4JNT -----Original Message----- From: Alan Melia [mailto:Alan.Melia@btinternet.com] Sent: 2002 July 24 13:12 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: Jason code on DDS Module Hi Andy, I think I and probably Brian would be interested in this. Would you have the frequency increments around say an preloaded nominal frequency in the PIC and accept Alberto's serial code ?? or were you just intending to look for frequency words ?? and we write the coding algoritm. With your 'synch' system this would mabe enable GPS timed Jason to be sent ?? Though I am not sure whether this would be an advantage without some "tweaking" to Alberto's decoder. Copy of Johan's 80m QRPP signal a few nights ago showed that the signal was detectable in the waterfall but not really decodable (Ver 092 or 3 at the time) due to the high level of static Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com -----Original Message----- From: Talbot Andrew To: 'rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org' Date: 24 July 2002 12:45 Subject: LF: Jason code on DDS Module >Is anyone interested in adding JASON support to my DDS board controller ? >Probably by issuing a "J" command which puts the PIC controller into a loop >looking for 9600 baud words on its serial port, then requiring a reset to >get back to normal. Or by setting a link / switch on one of the spare I/O >pins. > >If there is enough demand this could be done with higher priority ! > >Andy G4JNT > >"The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence" >"is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s)." >"For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, " >"or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is" >"prohibited and may be unlawful." > "The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence" "is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s)." "For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, " "or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is" "prohibited and may be unlawful." From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16576 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 14:25:36 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 14:25:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 18230 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 14:24:21 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 14:24:21 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XN0x-0000VJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:21:19 +0100 Received: from fep03.swip.net ([130.244.199.131] helo=fep03-svc.swip.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XN0w-0000VE-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:21:18 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.101.38.219]) by fep03-svc.swip.net with SMTP id <20020724142116.ABL7098.fep03-svc.swip.net@oemcomputer> for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:21:16 +0200 Message-ID: <001b01c2331d$61a581e0$db2665d5@oemcomputer> From: "Johan Bodin" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3.0.5.32.20020724101244.00a54a30@pop3.esoterica.pt> <3D3E82CE.AE38993E@snet.net> Subject: LF: Crossband from Donebach? Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:21:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Are you listening on 40m for crossband QSO? 73 Johan SM6LKM From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29594 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 14:05:11 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 14:05:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 26754 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 14:04:04 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 14:04:04 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XMeH-0000OJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:57:53 +0100 Received: from d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.5]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XMeG-0000OE-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:57:52 +0100 Received: from d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.166.84.147]) by d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com (1.0.0) with ESMTP id OAA98382 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:59:36 +0100 Received: from usa.net (ss9.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.75]) by d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/NCO/VER6.2) with ESMTP id g6ODvaQ59224 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:57:36 +0100 Message-ID: <3D3EB1FD.1BF6F2AD@usa.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:56:13 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Jason code on DDS Module References: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9B3B@mail.dstl.gov.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > I was just going to use the generic Jason serial output, just the 8 bit > words taking on values 0 - 16 at 9600 baud. The PIC would calculate the > accumulator value for each tone by multiplying the received number by a > constant derived from the stored clock, then adding on the requested cenre > frequency. Ok, this means less work for me... :-) But if you need modifications to the format, they can be done. > Question... Is the nominal frequency of a Jason transmission the centre > frequency (Tone 8 ), or Tone 0 ? My understanding is the former, the centre > tone. But just checking. > [...] Tone 8 is the centre frequency, and is also the idle tone, transmitted when the input buffer is empty. 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3664 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 13:54:55 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 13:54:55 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 16326 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 13:53:49 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 13:53:49 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XMXE-0000Km-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:50:36 +0100 Received: from rhun.esoterica.pt ([195.22.0.26]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XMXD-0000Ke-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:50:35 +0100 Received: from srv17slx.esoterica.pt (srv17slx.esoterica.pt [195.22.0.47]) by rhun.esoterica.pt (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6ODoWH01827 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:50:32 +0100 (WEST) Received: from slave-6 (por200.esoterica.pt [195.22.5.200]) by srv17slx.esoterica.pt (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g6ODoVZ25309 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:50:32 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020724135312.009ddaf0@pop3.esoterica.pt> X-Sender: brian@pop3.esoterica.pt X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:53:12 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Brian Rogerson" Subject: LF: copying DF6NM/P MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: have just copied DF6NM/P on 137.708KHz or there abouts on DFCW using 3 second ARGO. 73, Brian 73 Brian CT1DRP IN51QD 41 09 58N 08 39 11W http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~brian From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26896 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 13:51:41 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 13:51:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 19710 invoked by uid 10001); 24 Jul 2002 13:55:23 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 13:55:23 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XMQu-0000Jm-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:44:04 +0100 Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.81]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XMQt-0000Jh-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:44:03 +0100 Received: from host213-122-211-220.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.211.220] helo=main) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17XMQs-00057R-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:44:02 +0100 Message-ID: <000001c23318$20ac7540$dcd37ad5@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: Jason code on DDS Module Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:11:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Andy, I think I and probably Brian would be interested in this. Would you have the frequency increments around say an preloaded nominal frequency in the PIC and accept Alberto's serial code ?? or were you just intending to look for frequency words ?? and we write the coding algoritm. With your 'synch' system this would mabe enable GPS timed Jason to be sent ?? Though I am not sure whether this would be an advantage without some "tweaking" to Alberto's decoder. Copy of Johan's 80m QRPP signal a few nights ago showed that the signal was detectable in the waterfall but not really decodable (Ver 092 or 3 at the time) due to the high level of static Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com -----Original Message----- From: Talbot Andrew To: 'rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org' Date: 24 July 2002 12:45 Subject: LF: Jason code on DDS Module >Is anyone interested in adding JASON support to my DDS board controller ? >Probably by issuing a "J" command which puts the PIC controller into a loop >looking for 9600 baud words on its serial port, then requiring a reset to >get back to normal. Or by setting a link / switch on one of the spare I/O >pins. > >If there is enough demand this could be done with higher priority ! > >Andy G4JNT > >"The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence" >"is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s)." >"For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, " >"or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is" >"prohibited and may be unlawful." > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6243 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 13:32:06 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 13:32:06 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 15105 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 13:30:58 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 13:30:58 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XMAZ-0000FW-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:27:11 +0100 Received: from relay.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.49]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XMAY-0000FR-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:27:10 +0100 Received: (qmail 31502 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 14:27:09 +0100 Received: from butterfly.mod.uk (HELO warlock.dstl.gov.uk) (192.5.29.10) by relay.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 14:27:09 +0100 Message-ID: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9B3B@mail.dstl.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Jason code on DDS Module Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:18:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: The command format for my DDS board sends the ASCII Hex characters for accumulator N value, and so the values to be sent depend on the DDS clock frequency which can have any arbitrary value. A high level control programme for this board would normally first read the clock frequency stored in EEPROM, then calculate the value to be sent for required output frequency. This procedure means any driver programme can use any DDS module, from one clocked at 4.194304MHz for LF all the way to a 180MHz clocked unit for HF through UHF use. So generating a custom output from the Jason S/W would need a two way interrogation process to read the clock frequency, then calculate the values needed and format the Ascii hex characters. I was just going to use the generic Jason serial output, just the 8 bit words taking on values 0 - 16 at 9600 baud. The PIC would calculate the accumulator value for each tone by multiplying the received number by a constant derived from the stored clock, then adding on the requested cenre frequency. Question... Is the nominal frequency of a Jason transmission the centre frequency (Tone 8 ), or Tone 0 ? My understanding is the former, the centre tone. But just checking. Andy G4JNT > should you need modifications to the serial output format of Jason, just ask. >V 0.94 has an additional format, optionally selectable, asked for by >Murray Greenman ZL1BPU for his AVR Atmel board. >I could as well produce an ad-hoc format for your board. If you need >details about the ZL1BPU format please contact me, but it is very simple. >73 Alberto I2PHD "The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence" "is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s)." "For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, " "or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is" "prohibited and may be unlawful." From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21004 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 12:22:48 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 12:22:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 16204 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 12:21:49 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 12:21:49 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XL6T-000016-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:18:53 +0100 Received: from d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com ([195.212.91.199]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XL6S-000010-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:18:52 +0100 Received: from d12relay02.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.de.ibm.com [9.165.215.23]) by d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g6OCIJfh032534 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:18:20 +0200 Received: from usa.net (ss9.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.75]) by d12relay02.de.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/NCO/VER6.2) with ESMTP id g6OCIHL28732 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:18:18 +0200 Message-ID: <3D3E9AB8.1B7551D9@usa.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:16:56 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Jason code on DDS Module References: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9B38@mail.dstl.gov.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Talbot Andrew wrote: > Is anyone interested in adding JASON support to my DDS board controller ? > Probably by issuing a "J" command which puts the PIC controller into a loop > looking for 9600 baud words on its serial port, then requiring a reset to > get back to normal. Or by setting a link / switch on one of the spare I/O > pins. Talbot, should you need modifications to the serial output format of Jason, just ask. V 0.94 has an additional format, optionally selectable, asked for by Murray Greenman ZL1BPU for his AVR Atmel board. I could as well produce an ad-hoc format for your board. If you need details about the ZL1BPU format please contact me, but it is very simple. 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19027 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 12:22:05 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 12:22:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 22140 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 12:21:00 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 12:21:00 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XL5Z-00000w-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:17:57 +0100 Received: from d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.5]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XL5Y-00000r-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:17:56 +0100 Received: from d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.166.84.147]) by d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com (1.0.0) with ESMTP id MAA74256; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:37:42 +0100 Received: from usa.net (ss9.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.75]) by d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/NCO/VER6.2) with ESMTP id g6OBZlQ40000; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:35:48 +0100 Message-ID: <3D3E90C1.2542A90E@usa.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:34:25 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Cc: lowfer@mailman.qth.net, lf@amrad.org Subject: LF: Re: Jason V0.94 References: <20020723.212259.-691071.2.riese-k3djc@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: BOB RIESE wrote: > Alberto > > The ability to record your sending and make a wave file is super > also allows the centering of the frequency and other adjustments > and allows a bit of familiarity before on the air use SUPER > > Not sure about the higher speed ,would that be resampling the 11025 > at a different rate ?? Bob, the higher speed is due to the fact that the audio samples are not coming from the sound card, at 11025 samples each second, but from a file. The actual speed is determined in this case from the time spent in processing, and from the time it takes to read from disk. Of course, the original audio recording on disk must have been done at 11025 samples per second. As I said, V0.94 of Jason can read WAV files, thanks to Stewart KK7KA, but is not capable of recording yet. This is left to V0.95. To record, you can use one of the many utilities found on Internet. I recommend Cool Edit, a very powerful and easy to use package. 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16868 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 12:06:46 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 12:06:46 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 7464 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 12:05:39 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 12:05:39 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XKql-0008Sz-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:02:39 +0100 Received: from cmailenv2.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.54]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XKqk-0008Su-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:02:38 +0100 Received: from [62.21.136.205] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV2.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17XKqh-0004Ti-00; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:02:35 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020724134630.009f9ac0@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:04:47 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: DJ2LF/P Cc: dj2lf@darc.de, markusvester@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE

At 1000 UTC I measured the signal from DJ2LF/P at 144 microvolt/m. From their locator JN49ON and mine JO22GD follows a distance of 435km.

Over perfect ground the EMRP would be 64 watt.

Using the CCIR curve that gave plausible results on the power of DCF39 and M0BMU  I find for DJ2LF/P an EMRP = 151 watt.

When I worked them at 0923 UTC their signal was 13dB weaker at S9 + 11dB; about the same strength as ON6ND, who is much nearer to me of course.

73, Dick, PA0SE

 From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3720 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 12:05:13 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 12:05:13 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 5714 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 12:04:07 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 12:04:07 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XKji-0008Qf-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:55:22 +0100 Received: from moutvdom.kundenserver.de ([195.20.224.131] helo=moutvdomng1.kundenserver.de) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XKjh-0008Qa-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:55:21 +0100 Received: from [195.20.224.214] (helo=mrvdomng2.kundenserver.de) by moutvdomng1.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 17XKjc-0002Va-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:55:16 +0200 Received: from [217.1.74.8] (helo=diolog.de) by mrvdomng2.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 17XKjc-0003TF-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:55:16 +0200 Message-ID: <3D3E5EC7.20B70E3E@diolog.de> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:01:11 +0100 From: "Fabian Kurz" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [de] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: DJ2LF/P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello group, just listening to DJ2LF/p from the DLF-Tower with only 1W power INTO the antenna - still a very strong signal here! Great job! 73, Fabian dj1yfk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17278 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 11:48:33 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 11:48:33 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 18787 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 11:47:26 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 11:47:21 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XKYo-0008MJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:44:06 +0100 Received: from relay.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.49]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XKYn-0008ME-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:44:05 +0100 Received: (qmail 29602 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 12:43:54 +0100 Received: from butterfly.mod.uk (HELO warlock.dstl.gov.uk) (192.5.29.10) by relay.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 12:43:54 +0100 Message-ID: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9B38@mail.dstl.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Jason code on DDS Module Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:11:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Is anyone interested in adding JASON support to my DDS board controller ? Probably by issuing a "J" command which puts the PIC controller into a loop looking for 9600 baud words on its serial port, then requiring a reset to get back to normal. Or by setting a link / switch on one of the spare I/O pins. If there is enough demand this could be done with higher priority ! Andy G4JNT "The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence" "is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s)." "For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, " "or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is" "prohibited and may be unlawful." From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19409 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 11:12:20 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 11:12:20 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 11801 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 11:11:13 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 11:11:12 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XK0I-0008GO-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:08:26 +0100 Received: from mailout01.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.80]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XK0H-0008GJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:08:25 +0100 Received: from fwd02.sul.t-online.de by mailout01.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17XK0B-0008Hk-03; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:08:19 +0200 Received: from 217.2.40.40 (087321565-0001@[217.2.40.40]) by fwd02.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17XJzz-02BI3tC; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:08:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: LF: IEE Paper From: "Hans-Joachim Brandt" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 4.104 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: 24 Jul 2002 10:50 GMT Message-ID: <17XJzz-02BI3tC@fwd02.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 087321565-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Andy, please do not forget to mention that "the modern achievements of wire bound telecommuinications techniques" and the amount of unwanted radiation which is going to become generally accepted may totally destroy all these new sensitive techniques for radio communication. I guess this comment will also be supported by RSGB and other radio societies. 73 Ha-Jo, DJ1ZB "Talbot Andrew" schrieb: >I have been asked by RSGB to write a paper for a forthcoming conference >"Getting the Most Out of the Radio Spectrum" sponsored by the Institute of >Electrical Engineers (IEE), to be held 24-25 October 2002 At the IEE, Savoy >Place. London. > >The paper (to be presented as a poster session) will be entitled "Amateur >use of novel signaling methods at low frequencies" and I will cover the >means by which we have used very low bandwidth signalling methods to >overcome problems with low powers and inefficient antennas, and making use >of the stable path at these frequencies for long distance signalling. >Starting from SlowCW through 7FSK / Jason and WOLF. > >As it is a poster session, pictures will go down well so some SMT Hell >screen shots will appear as well. > >What I would like some help with is this: During the transatlantic tests, >weren't various discoveries made about the stability of the path which were >related to ionospheric stability ? I believe some ideas were discussed >regarding skywave propagation and different modes. Has anyone got a >summary of what was discovered - and could this be described as hitherto >unknown information. > >It would be particularly rewarding and do our service a lot of good if it >could be shown that amateurs have made some new discoveries and research in >this area, or have tried techniques that have hitherto not been used - such >as back in the days of the 1920s when the commercial interests were >abandoning LF for HF. The paper 'has to refelct the title of the >conference' so I need to demonstrate that we are making the most of the LF >bands. Comments by the reviewers of the abstract are quoted below : > > >"Paper to give conclusions as to the way forward for further development of >this technique" > >"Use by the amateur service of low speed signalling at LF to develop >signalling protocols and explore propagation phenomena. Interesting research >at increasingly unused frequencies. Such research may help to characterise >these frequencies and expand their potential use. It is anticipated that >this will be the thrust of the paper. Propagation events are noted, it is >asked that these be characterised, and considered for potential uses, and >how predictable they currently are. It is requested that any potential >applications that have been evaluated or considered are covered in the final >report" > >Ideas please. The deadline for submission of the paper is 13 August so >there are a few weeks yet.......... > >Andy G4JNT > >"The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence" >"is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s)." >"For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, " >"or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is" >"prohibited and may be unlawful." > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6996 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 11:07:31 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 11:07:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 15598 invoked by uid 10001); 24 Jul 2002 11:11:11 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 11:11:11 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XJt4-0008Cb-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:00:58 +0100 Received: from dns.bankinter.es ([195.235.30.34] helo=smtp.bankinter.es) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XJt3-0008CW-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:00:57 +0100 Received: from BI57429bankinter (h026121.nexo.es [195.235.26.121]) by smtp.bankinter.es (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA24540 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:00:56 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <003a01c2333b$fef129e0$791aebc3@BI57429bankinter> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Manuel?= To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Fw: DLF Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:00:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:46 PM
Subject: DLF

Received signals on 136.5Khz by EA1PX(La Coruña) and EA1TF(El Ferrol) in the northwest of Spain at:
 
9:55 CQ deDL2NDO/P
10:00 in QSO with DK7SU
10:35 CQ deDJ2LF/P
 
Signals are very good, say 589
 
73 fm Juan(EA1TF) and José Manuel(EA1PX)
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7628 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 10:53:32 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 10:53:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 4343 invoked by uid 10001); 24 Jul 2002 10:57:06 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 10:57:06 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XJgS-00089u-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:47:56 +0100 Received: from fep02.swip.net ([130.244.199.130] helo=fep02-svc.swip.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XJgQ-00089p-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:47:55 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.101.37.161]) by fep02-svc.swip.net with SMTP id <20020724104750.XWLN710.fep02-svc.swip.net@oemcomputer> for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:47:50 +0200 Message-ID: <000d01c232ff$911ad7e0$a12565d5@oemcomputer> From: "Johan Bodin" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3.0.5.32.20020724101244.00a54a30@pop3.esoterica.pt> Subject: Re: LF: Re: Activity from Deutschlandfunk Antenna Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:47:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Strong 589 signal from DJ2LF/P in QSO with M0BMU (not G0BMU :) at 10.40 UTC. GL 73 Johan SM6LKM Loc. JO67MR From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28944 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 10:37:06 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 10:37:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 21591 invoked by uid 10001); 24 Jul 2002 10:40:44 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 10:40:43 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XJRE-00086S-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:32:12 +0100 Received: from mta3.snet.net ([204.60.203.69]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XJRD-00086N-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:32:11 +0100 Received: from snet.net (hrfr-sh25-port74.snet.net [204.60.241.74]) by mta3.snet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/SNET-smtp-1.2/D-1.1.1.1/O-1.1.1.1) with ESMTP id g6OAT2I5018497 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 06:29:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3D3E82CE.AE38993E@snet.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 06:34:54 -0400 From: "Jay Rusgrove" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re: Activity from Deutschlandfunk Antenna References: <3.0.5.32.20020724101244.00a54a30@pop3.esoterica.pt> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mta3.snet.net id g6OAT2I5018497 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Brian Do you have a precise frequency readout on them? I might as well take a look on this side of the pond with ARGO. Thanks. Jay Rusgrove, W1VD Brian Rogerson wrote: > Very pleased to report that the signal is now being received on 136.5KHz > both in Coruña and Porto, and in Porto it is "just" audible in the noise on > the loudspeaker. Brian > > Dear LF Group, > > While talking to Alan on the phone I was lucky enough to hear > the transmission start up from the background noise of his receiver > and even I was able to read DJ. I have never heard hand speed > cw on LF before in spite of Mal's optimistic predictions. On > 136.52KHz and Argo 3 seconds there is a weak but unidentifiable > signal. > > If at all possible to send a little QRSS for those listening in North > West Iberia it would be very much appreciated. > > Best 73 and good luck, Brian > > At 18:34 23/07/2002 +0100, you wrote: > >Dear LF Group, > > > >Will be listening out tomorrow morning for activity from DLF site - good > >luck to all involved! > > > >Cheers, Jim Moritz > >73 de M0BMU > > > > > > > > > 73 Brian CT1DRP IN51QD 41 09 58N 08 39 11W > http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~brian From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1871 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 10:17:45 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 10:17:45 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 6461 invoked by uid 10001); 24 Jul 2002 10:21:18 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 10:21:18 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XJ6O-00082n-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:10:40 +0100 Received: from rhun.esoterica.pt ([195.22.0.26]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XJ6N-00082i-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:10:39 +0100 Received: from srv17slx.esoterica.pt (srv17slx.esoterica.pt [195.22.0.47]) by rhun.esoterica.pt (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6OAAcH25547 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:10:38 +0100 (WEST) Received: from slave-6 (por240.esoterica.pt [195.22.5.240]) by srv17slx.esoterica.pt (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g6OAAbU15409 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:10:37 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020724101244.00a54a30@pop3.esoterica.pt> X-Sender: brian@pop3.esoterica.pt X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:12:44 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Brian Rogerson" Subject: Re: LF: Re: Activity from Deutschlandfunk Antenna MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Very pleased to report that the signal is now being received on 136.5KHz both in Coruña and Porto, and in Porto it is "just" audible in the noise on the loudspeaker. Brian Dear LF Group, While talking to Alan on the phone I was lucky enough to hear the transmission start up from the background noise of his receiver and even I was able to read DJ. I have never heard hand speed cw on LF before in spite of Mal's optimistic predictions. On 136.52KHz and Argo 3 seconds there is a weak but unidentifiable signal. If at all possible to send a little QRSS for those listening in North West Iberia it would be very much appreciated. Best 73 and good luck, Brian At 18:34 23/07/2002 +0100, you wrote: >Dear LF Group, > >Will be listening out tomorrow morning for activity from DLF site - good >luck to all involved! > >Cheers, Jim Moritz >73 de M0BMU > > > > 73 Brian CT1DRP IN51QD 41 09 58N 08 39 11W http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~brian From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22514 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 09:50:58 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 09:50:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 17648 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 09:49:45 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 09:49:44 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XIg9-0007v4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:43:33 +0100 Received: from carbon.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.92] helo=carbon) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XIg8-0007uz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:43:33 +0100 Received: from host213-1-101-135.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.1.101.135] helo=main) by carbon with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17XIg7-0007e9-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:43:31 +0100 Message-ID: <000401c232f6$83ea28e0$876501d5@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: Donnebach 599 in UK Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:41:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi the signal from Donnebach is very strong as one might expect in the UK. Well done fellows. You may be interested to know that Brian (CT1DRP) and a couple of EA1s in La Coruna are also listening intently for you. It looks as though again weak signal reception may be a problem. Cheers de ALan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9583 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 09:49:45 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 09:49:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 16517 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 09:48:38 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 09:48:38 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XIiN-0007vD-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:45:51 +0100 Received: from rhun.esoterica.pt ([195.22.0.26]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XIiM-0007v8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:45:51 +0100 Received: from srv17slx.esoterica.pt (srv17slx.esoterica.pt [195.22.0.47]) by rhun.esoterica.pt (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6O9jnH20987 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:45:49 +0100 (WEST) Received: from slave-6 (por200.esoterica.pt [195.22.5.200]) by srv17slx.esoterica.pt (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g6O9jmU25382 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:45:49 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020724094829.009f21e0@pop3.esoterica.pt> X-Sender: brian@pop3.esoterica.pt X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:48:29 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Brian Rogerson" Subject: Re: LF: Re: Activity from Deutschlandfunk Antenna In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020723183145.00afd580@gemini.herts.ac.uk> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF Group, While talking to Alan on the phone I was lucky enough to hear the transmission start up from the background noise of his receiver and even I was able to read DJ. I have never heard hand speed cw on LF before in spite of Mal's optimistic predictions. On 136.52KHz and Argo 3 seconds there is a weak but unidentifiable signal. If at all possible to send a little QRSS for those listening in North West Iberia it would be very much appreciated. Best 73 and good luck, Brian At 18:34 23/07/2002 +0100, you wrote: >Dear LF Group, > >Will be listening out tomorrow morning for activity from DLF site - good >luck to all involved! > >Cheers, Jim Moritz >73 de M0BMU > > > > 73 Brian CT1DRP IN51QD 41 09 58N 08 39 11W http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~brian From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9140 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 07:52:10 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 07:52:10 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 29784 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 07:51:11 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 07:51:11 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XGs1-0007bH-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:47:41 +0100 Received: from relay.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.49]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XGs0-0007bC-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:47:40 +0100 Received: (qmail 11310 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 08:47:40 +0100 Received: from butterfly.mod.uk (HELO warlock.dstl.gov.uk) (192.5.29.10) by relay.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 08:47:40 +0100 Message-ID: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9B34@mail.dstl.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Sound Cards Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:47:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
I built a custom LF receiver last year, filtering to 180Hz bandwidth, then converting the signal to a 1kHz tone which was sampled by a microchip MCP3204 12 bit A/D.at 4kHz.  Presumably, being made by the same company the A/D core is the same as that internal to their PIC processors (10 bit vs. 12 bit notwithstanding).    Then I and Q baseband signals at 1kHz were generated by taking four successive samples in groups (labelled S1, S2, S3 and S4) and calculating     I = S1 + S2 - S3 - S4   and   Q = S1 - S2 - S3 + S4.    This is effectively the same as multiplying the 1kHz audio by two 90 degree shifted square waves at 1 kHz.   Provided the input is band limited to the range 750 - 1250 Hz, no mixer products or alliases ought to appear.
 
After writing some waterfall software to read the I/Q samples (at effectively 13 - 14 bit resolution) I was never too happy with the result. Although a dynamic range of 50dB was achieved, there were spurious lines present, which appeared to be related to 1kHz and subharmonics so I can only assume these were artifacts of the A/D converter itself.    Better results were achievable with the RA1792 plus 56002 EVM sampling at 8kHz (better than most soundcards) and no sprog lines were present with the antenna disconnected, so I put the LF receiver on the shelf for a 'later' follow up
 
WIth a 10 bit converter you will be limited to at most 60dB dynamic range which poor soundcards can match and many better, but you will have the very considerable advantage of being able to control the sample rate properly.   Furthermore you can probably control stray pick up much better as the audio circuits can be separated from the PC, linked with a properly filterd data link (RS232, USB or whatever)  With decimation and post processing this dynamic range will of course be increased.  Try it and see, but don't expect too much.   I've had a serial port 8 bit 16C71 PIC based converter going for some years (before the 56002EVM) , and it did a reasonable job of digging signals out of noise in its day, but couldn't match later 16 bit performance.
 
Andy  G4JNT
-----Original Message-----
From: DL4YHF@aol.com [mailto:DL4YHF@aol.com]
Sent: 2002 July 23 19:36
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: Sound Cards

Related topic: I bought some a low-cost PIC with 10-bit ADC (PIC16F870) recently, planning to connect it to the serial interface as replacement for my laptop's audio device (which only has a lousy *mono* MIC input). Has anyone on the group ever tried to use this PIC for weak-signal work and check the ADC's performance, compared to a soundcard ?



Regards,
Wolf  DL4YHF

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"is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s)."
"For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, "
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From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8628 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 01:32:47 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 01:32:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 16152 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2002 01:31:41 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2002 01:31:41 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XAu4-0006ia-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 02:25:24 +0100 Received: from m11.boston.juno.com ([64.136.24.74]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17XAu3-0006iV-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 02:25:23 +0100 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"yokUgcxCbtTP7XLrpefewD2RpkuhdhSoI9M+sU9cLL8PMkPR+1xx/A=="> Received: (from riese-k3djc@juno.com) by m11.boston.juno.com (jqueuemail) id G8FSG8WA; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 21:24:22 EDT To: lowfer@mailman.qth.net Cc: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, lf@amrad.org Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 21:20:40 -0400 Subject: LF: Re: [Lowfer] Re: Jason V0.94 Message-ID: <20020723.212259.-691071.2.riese-k3djc@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-14,16-54 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "BOB RIESE" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Alberto The ability to record your sending and make a wave file is super also allows the centering of the frequency and other adjustments and allows a bit of familiarity before on the air use SUPER Not sure about the higher speed ,would that be resampling the 11025 at a different rate ?? Haven't tried that and am anxious to try this out on the air on HF. thanks Bob K3DJC On Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:52:58 +0200 Alberto di Bene writes: >Alberto di Bene wrote: > >> I have just uploaded Jason V0.94 to the weaksignals site : >> http://www.weaksignals.com >> >> The main differences from V0.93 are : > >Well, it turns out that in the haste of writing my yesterday's >announcement >I left out another improvement to V 0.94, also done by Stewart. > >Now you can select between doing a realtime reception using the sound >card, >or reading a WAV file at a much higher speed. The WAV file must have >been digitized at (or converted to) 11025 samples per second, mono, 8 >or 16 >bits audio resolution. A subsequent version of Jason will also allow >to record >such a file from the realtime audio input. At the moment you can use >the Sound >Recorder of Windows, or Cool Edit or many other sound utilities. > >This feature makes possible to compare the two decoders, or to try >again to >receive a signal with a different fine tuning, or, last but not least, >to show to >others how the program works without the need of radio (and of a >signal...). > >Enjoy > >73 Alberto I2PHD > > >_______________________________________________ >>From the Lowfer mailing list >Send messages to: Lowfer@mailman.qth.net >To sub/unsub visit: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/lowfer From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12212 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 21:09:30 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 21:09:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 2645 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 21:08:24 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 21:08:24 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17X6qJ-00062B-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:05:15 +0100 Received: from fep03.swip.net ([130.244.199.131] helo=fep03-svc.swip.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17X6qI-000623-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:05:14 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.101.41.225]) by fep03-svc.swip.net with SMTP id <20020723210510.RSDL7098.fep03-svc.swip.net@oemcomputer> for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 23:05:10 +0200 Message-ID: <010401c2328c$a3804d20$e12965d5@oemcomputer> From: "Johan Bodin" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <46.2adf2094.2a6efc2a@aol.com> Subject: Re: LF: Jason Beacon QRT Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:58:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Wolf, > Grumble... I was just going to get QRV on 80 meters again, but horrible > wheater made listening impossible (lotsa static crashes). 80m seems to be a bad choice for "milliwatting" in the summertime QRN... The only report of solid copy came from Christer SM6PXJ. > Will the Jason QRPPP becaon reappear ? Yes, don't worry, but I have to do some programming using my favourite programming language (solder) before it will reappear. When I find the time to do this, I will have GPS locked QRPppp capability from DC to 30 MHz. 73 Johan SM6LKM From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4133 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 18:41:51 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 18:41:51 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 16829 invoked by uid 10001); 23 Jul 2002 18:45:32 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 18:45:31 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17X4Ww-0005cz-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:37:06 +0100 Received: from imo-m03.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17X4Wv-0005cn-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:37:05 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.46.2adf2094 (4230) for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:36:27 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <46.2adf2094.2a6efc2a@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:36:26 EDT Subject: Re: LF: Jason Beacon QRT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows XP DE sub 50 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hi Johan,

Grumble... I was just going to get QRV on 80 meters again, but horrible wheater made listening impossible (lotsa static crashes).
Will the Jason QRPPP becaon reappear ?

Regards,
 Wolf DL4YHF. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3895 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 18:41:44 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 18:41:44 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 29765 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 18:40:38 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 18:40:38 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17X4Wv-0005ct-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:37:05 +0100 Received: from imo-m05.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.8]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17X4Wu-0005cm-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:37:04 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.19d.5b8364f (4230) for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:36:29 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <19d.5b8364f.2a6efc2c@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:36:28 EDT Subject: Re: LF: Sound Cards To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows XP DE sub 50 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hi Sandy,

from own experiments with several soundcards I found only marginal differences as long as simple waterfall display is concerned - so I confirm Alberto's comments.
   (Instead of a bit more dynamic range, I would love to have
    a soundcard with two DC-coupled inputs,
    for I/Q processing as last stage of a digital receiver
    with simple but good analog frontend).

A problem with audio cards on the mainboard is that they often catch noise from the digital components on the board. This can be very annoying, because sometimes the noise appears like "interesting looking" noise on the waterfall (water on the mills of the anti-soundcard fraction again ;-).
On the other hand, if the soundcard "noise" is mostly random type, it is effectively reduced by the narrow-band gain of the FFT. So, for high frequency resolution, the usable dynamic range for a waterfall display often exceeds 120 dB (more than the dynamic range of a 16 bit ADC !).

----
Related topic: I bought some a low-cost PIC with 10-bit ADC (PIC16F870) recently, planning to connect it to the serial interface as replacement for my laptop's audio device (which only has a lousy *mono* MIC input). Has anyone on the group ever tried to use this PIC for weak-signal work and check the ADC's performance, compared to a soundcard ?



Regards,
Wolf  DL4YHF

From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 580 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 17:39:10 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 17:39:10 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 4368 invoked by uid 10001); 23 Jul 2002 17:42:51 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 17:42:51 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17X3Yk-0005Ro-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:34:54 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17X3Yj-0005Rj-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:34:53 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17X3Yj-00078L-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:34:53 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17X3Yi-0000Ds-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:34:52 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020723183145.00afd580@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:34:51 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: LF: Re: Activity from Deutschlandfunk Antenna In-reply-to: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF Group, Will be listening out tomorrow morning for activity from DLF site - good luck to all involved! Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10495 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 16:17:12 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 16:17:12 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 16527 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 16:16:05 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 16:16:05 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17X2DU-0005Fu-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:08:52 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17X2DT-0005Fp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:08:51 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17X2DS-0005fn-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:08:50 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17X2DR-0005A2-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:08:49 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020723153951.00af7b98@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:08:48 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: Sound Cards In-reply-to: <5.1.1.6.0.20020722224253.009efa70@pop.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Sandy, LF group, As I recall, the average sound card ADC claims about 70 or 80dB dynamic range - while I have no doubt some have much better performance, the RX IF/detector/AF sections are almost never going to be good enough to see any benefit from an improved ADC. This is understandable - as far as the designers are concerned, in a normal HF/LF communications receiver design, all the channel filtering is performed by the IF filter, and whatever signal is present at the filter output is the "wanted" signal. So all the subsequent stages of the receiver are expected to do is maintain an adequate signal to noise/distortion ratio - for communications purposes, 40dB would be more than enough. With LF narrow-band modes the situation is different - the selectivity and unwanted signal rejection is defined entirely by the software, so all circuits up to and including the sound card ADC are effectively the front-end of the receiver, and have to handle large amounts of unwanted signals and noise without distorting a weak wanted signal - not something they were ever designed to do. This is the same as the argument against add-on CW audio filters. However, in practice it usually seems to be possible to set the gain so that neither receiver nor sound card are overloaded, and the receiver noise level is only a tiny fraction of the band noise, so it probably does not matter much most of the time. Where it is a problem is when there are large unwanted signals in the IF passband - this sometimes happens here when you are trying to copy a weak QRSS signal, and there is a local station operating at the same time. During the transatlantic tests I found that with the right adjustment of receiver and sound card gain controls, along with the display parameters, it was possible to copy a weak signal 50 - 60 dB below a strong local signal, when 30s dots were being used. It would certainly be possible to design an RX with high dynamic range, low noise IF/detector/Audio stages with optimised gain distribution to complement a high performance sound card. A more integrated approach is a receiver with IF DSP, with the ADC digitising the IF signal instead of the audio. But with current LF usage, especially in the US, it would probably be a benefit only 1% of the time. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU PS - even for the top-notch sound cards on the web site you mention, it still says nothing about the sample rate accuracy! At 23:11 22/07/2002 -0400, you wrote: > I have a question? How important is the sound card to the operation of > DSP software (Argo etc). I think we have proved that almost any card will > work but would we gain any thing by buying a card with a better signal to > noise ratio or better dynamic range? > This web page has test results showing many DB difference between cards > (click on the card name for details on each card). > > http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/summary/index.htm > > Sandy > WB5MMB > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16645 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 14:20:22 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 14:20:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 7861 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 14:18:21 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 14:18:21 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17X0Rq-0004x4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:15:34 +0100 Received: from d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.5]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17X0Rp-0004wz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:15:33 +0100 Received: from d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.166.84.147]) by d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com (1.0.0) with ESMTP id PAB93326 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:17:25 +0100 Received: from usa.net (ss1.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.66]) by d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/NCO/VER6.2) with ESMTP id g6NEFTX114116 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:15:30 +0100 Message-ID: <3D3D64AF.A6A2453E@usa.net> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:14:07 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Spectran capture (was : LF Roundtable) References: <3D3BDF8E.17F2CEE1@usa.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020722134910.00adc928@gemini.herts.ac.uk> <3D3C0DBA.13397D9@usa.net> <3D3C1E06.99DD300C@virgin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Stewart Bryant wrote: > [...] > Just to add some clarification, I have no interest in the quality of the local display, > just the quality of the captured image. My plan is to sit this in the corner listening > to MB7LF on a dedicated receiver and dumping the output to a web site every > few minutes. Anyone have any thought about how frequently this needs to be? > > How does the system work, is the captured image derived by screen capture > or from internal data? > [...] I tried, when coding the capture function in Spectran, to produce the captured files from the internal buffers (the spectrum and the waterfall buffers), but then you missed all the other details, like the position of the sliders and all the other elements present on the window. So what I do now is simply to copy the screen buffer of Windows, but after having brought the Spectran form in the foreground just for the time needed to perform the capture. In this way the entire window is saved. This of course has as consequence the fact that the screen resolution (800 x 600 or 1024 x 768) and the colour depth (16 or 24 bits) does affect the image captured. 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12981 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 14:19:10 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 14:19:10 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 105 invoked by uid 10001); 23 Jul 2002 14:22:49 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 14:22:49 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17X0Nt-0004wP-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:11:29 +0100 Received: from cmailenv1.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.53]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17X0Ns-0004wK-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:11:28 +0100 Received: from [62.21.133.177] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV1.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17X0No-0007x0-00; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:11:26 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020723160200.009fa8c0@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:13:34 +0200 To: "Reg Edwards" , "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: Re: Calculating ERP from measured field strength In-reply-to: <006a01c230a9$17142e40$1c8901d5@kitchen> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020720130356.009eb780@POP3.freeler.nl> <5.1.0.14.0.20020721095922.00a05170@POP3.freeler.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To Reg, G4FGQ and the LF-group

Reg, G4FGQ wrote:

Yes, I am aware of that.  But I am interested in the extent to which VLF
predicting capability of program GrndWav3 is affected by skywaves.  It would
be nice to state confidence limits on predicting error,  + or - dB or
something like that.

Any info is better than none. I have no means of making any measurements
myself.  So should some very inacurate data turn up it would be of
interest.
I would like to provide this data. But my problem is that in order to do a reliable measurement the signal has to be sufficiently over the local noise level. This means it must be about S6 or more. Signals you would like to be measured do not come up to that level.
But in order to find out whether a signal is affected by sky wave you could monitor the strong commercial stations adjacent to our LF band. When they vary in strength with time that is an indication there is a mix of ground and skywave.

73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19583 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 14:01:19 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 14:01:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 15111 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 13:58:50 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 13:58:49 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17X08D-0004rt-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:55:17 +0100 Received: from d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.5]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17X08C-0004ro-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:55:17 +0100 Received: from d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.166.84.148]) by d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com (1.0.0) with ESMTP id OAA87584; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:56:16 +0100 Received: from usa.net (ss1.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.66]) by d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/NCO/VER6.2) with ESMTP id g6NDsJW58036; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:54:20 +0100 Message-ID: <3D3D5FBA.A38E6A93@usa.net> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:52:58 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, lf@amrad.org, lowfer@mailman.qth.net Subject: LF: Re: Jason V0.94 References: <3D3C39A8.561CB48B@usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Alberto di Bene wrote: > I have just uploaded Jason V0.94 to the weaksignals site : > http://www.weaksignals.com > > The main differences from V0.93 are : Well, it turns out that in the haste of writing my yesterday's announcement I left out another improvement to V 0.94, also done by Stewart. Now you can select between doing a realtime reception using the sound card, or reading a WAV file at a much higher speed. The WAV file must have been digitized at (or converted to) 11025 samples per second, mono, 8 or 16 bits audio resolution. A subsequent version of Jason will also allow to record such a file from the realtime audio input. At the moment you can use the Sound Recorder of Windows, or Cool Edit or many other sound utilities. This feature makes possible to compare the two decoders, or to try again to receive a signal with a different fine tuning, or, last but not least, to show to others how the program works without the need of radio (and of a signal...). Enjoy 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6333 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 13:30:43 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 13:30:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 3564 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 13:29:32 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 13:29:31 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WzfX-0004n5-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:25:39 +0100 Received: from smarthost4.mail.uk.easynet.net ([212.135.6.14]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WzfW-0004n0-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:25:38 +0100 Received: from tnt-1-74.easynet.co.uk ([195.40.206.74] helo=erica) by smarthost4.mail.uk.easynet.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17WzfV-000BjG-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:25:37 +0100 Message-ID: <001501c2324e$078093a0$4ace28c3@erica> From: "g3ldo" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3D3C7615.CAD0C623@virgin.net> Subject: LF: Re: DVM Modules Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:36:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Stewart, Thank you for the use of your mobile phone. I had to leave quickly because I learned that my XYL had got the horse trailer stuck! In my rush to leave I forgot to pick up my the DVM module and a pack of resistors that I bought. I am e-mailing George Dobbs regarding the publication of a description of MB7LF and will be back to you soon. > In case the DVM purchasers were not interested in the USA > and deleted the topic unread, I repeat the message with the > correct subject line. > > Those of you that bought the DVM modules, I scanned > in the data sheet. If anyone needs it, please let me know. > If anyone else wants one of the modules, then I am sure > we can work out a mail order price. Regards, Peter, G3LDO e-mail Web From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3560 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 12:18:06 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 12:18:06 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 23026 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 12:16:59 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 12:16:59 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WyXF-0004ci-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:13:01 +0100 Received: from relay.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.49]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WyXE-0004cd-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:13:00 +0100 Received: (qmail 18578 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 13:12:59 +0100 Received: from butterfly.mod.uk (HELO warlock.dstl.gov.uk) (192.5.29.10) by relay.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 13:12:59 +0100 Message-ID: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9B31@mail.dstl.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: IEE Paper Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:12:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I have been asked by RSGB to write a paper for a forthcoming conference "Getting the Most Out of the Radio Spectrum" sponsored by the Institute of Electrical Engineers (IEE), to be held 24-25 October 2002 At the IEE, Savoy Place. London. The paper (to be presented as a poster session) will be entitled "Amateur use of novel signaling methods at low frequencies" and I will cover the means by which we have used very low bandwidth signalling methods to overcome problems with low powers and inefficient antennas, and making use of the stable path at these frequencies for long distance signalling. Starting from SlowCW through 7FSK / Jason and WOLF. As it is a poster session, pictures will go down well so some SMT Hell screen shots will appear as well. What I would like some help with is this: During the transatlantic tests, weren't various discoveries made about the stability of the path which were related to ionospheric stability ? I believe some ideas were discussed regarding skywave propagation and different modes. Has anyone got a summary of what was discovered - and could this be described as hitherto unknown information. It would be particularly rewarding and do our service a lot of good if it could be shown that amateurs have made some new discoveries and research in this area, or have tried techniques that have hitherto not been used - such as back in the days of the 1920s when the commercial interests were abandoning LF for HF. The paper 'has to refelct the title of the conference' so I need to demonstrate that we are making the most of the LF bands. Comments by the reviewers of the abstract are quoted below : "Paper to give conclusions as to the way forward for further development of this technique" "Use by the amateur service of low speed signalling at LF to develop signalling protocols and explore propagation phenomena. Interesting research at increasingly unused frequencies. Such research may help to characterise these frequencies and expand their potential use. It is anticipated that this will be the thrust of the paper. Propagation events are noted, it is asked that these be characterised, and considered for potential uses, and how predictable they currently are. It is requested that any potential applications that have been evaluated or considered are covered in the final report" Ideas please. The deadline for submission of the paper is 13 August so there are a few weeks yet.......... Andy G4JNT "The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence" "is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s)." "For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, " "or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is" "prohibited and may be unlawful." From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18376 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 09:37:12 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 09:37:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 6918 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 09:36:06 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 09:36:05 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Ww0T-0004G5-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:31:01 +0100 Received: from d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com ([195.212.91.200]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Ww0S-0004Fx-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:31:00 +0100 Received: from d12relay02.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.de.ibm.com [9.165.215.23]) by d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g6N9UKV7044002 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:30:29 +0200 Received: from usa.net (ss1.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.66]) by d12relay02.de.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/NCO/VER6.2) with ESMTP id g6N9UIb39238 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:30:18 +0200 Message-ID: <3D3D21D5.65ED6EEB@usa.net> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:28:53 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: G4CNN References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020722224253.009efa70@pop.erols.com> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender:
Memento homo quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris.

Thou shalt not forget, man, that from dust you come and to dust you shall revert...

All my sincere condoleances to his family and friends.

Alberto  I2PHD
  From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14352 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 09:35:21 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 09:35:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 16448 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 09:34:22 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 09:34:22 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Wvtm-0004FQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:24:06 +0100 Received: from d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com ([195.212.91.199]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Wvtl-0004FI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:24:05 +0100 Received: from d12relay02.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.de.ibm.com [9.165.215.23]) by d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g6N9NSfh010768 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:23:33 +0200 Received: from usa.net (ss1.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.66]) by d12relay02.de.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/NCO/VER6.2) with ESMTP id g6N9NPb108594 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:23:26 +0200 Message-ID: <3D3D203C.2358E174@usa.net> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:22:04 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: Sound Cards References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020722224253.009efa70@pop.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Nan and Sandy Sanders wrote: > I have a question? How important is the sound card to the operation of > DSP software (Argo etc). I think we have proved that almost any card will > work but would we gain any thing by buying a card with a better signal to > noise ratio or better dynamic range? My opinion is that SNR is relevant for music and pseudo HiFi applications. When you use a PC sound card to digitize an audio signal coming from a receiver, the band noise is orders of magnitude greater than the residual card-induced noise. But I may be wrong... 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23350 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 07:58:07 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 07:58:07 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 18508 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 07:57:07 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 07:57:07 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WuTB-00041v-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:52:33 +0100 Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.93]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WuTA-00041Y-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:52:32 +0100 Received: from host213-1-200-159.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.1.200.159] helo=dave) by rhenium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17WuT9-0002xd-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:52:31 +0100 From: "Dave Sergeant" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:53:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: LF: (Fwd) On behalf of G4CNN Message-ID: <3D3D1994.22622.8ECAB5@localhost> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Mail message body Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Some of you may not have heard the sad news about John, which was forwarded to individual emails and not the reflector. I am sure we would all have John's family in our thoughts. A big loss for LF. Dave G3YMC dsergeant@iee.org dsergeant@btinternet.com http://www.dsergeant.btinternet.co.uk ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Dear LOWFER Group, Our father John Sexton, G4CNN, sadly passed away on 21st July 2002, with cancer. It was his wish for the LOWFER Group to be informed and for us to organise an aution/magazine sale of the radio transmission and antenni equipment. We will contact you in the future when this has been arranged. If there is anyone else amongst the LOWFER Group, who should also be informed, please forward this message. Please reply to this email address with any enquiries. With kind regards, Caroline and Michael Sexton (daughter and son). ------------------------------------------------ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ------- End of forwarded message ------- From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25909 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 07:19:49 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 07:19:49 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 4323 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 07:18:42 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 07:18:42 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WtpO-0003wU-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:11:26 +0100 Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.88]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WtpN-0003wP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:11:25 +0100 Received: from telemetry.demon.co.uk ([194.222.19.114]) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17WtpJ-000HaK-0U for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:11:22 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:09:13 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Tom Boucher" Subject: LF: Sad news MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Trial Version 3.05 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Sadly I was informed that John G4CNN had passed away last Sunday. The message came direct from his son and daughter and was sent to several members of this group but not to the reflector. Tom, G3OLB From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4384 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 04:05:25 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 04:05:25 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: (qmail 12407 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 04:04:20 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 04:04:19 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Wqq3-0003Zf-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 04:59:55 +0100 Received: from ool-18bfaa5c.dyn.optonline.net ([24.191.170.92] helo=block.iamanidiot.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Wqq2-0003Za-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 04:59:54 +0100 Received: from block.callsign.net (davidwillmore@localhost) by block.iamanidiot.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g6N3wkE04473; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:58:46 -0500 Message-ID: <200207230358.g6N3wkE04473@block.iamanidiot.com> To: njqrp@njqrp.org Cc: lowfer@mailman.qth.net, rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, lf@amrad.org Subject: LF: PSK31 audio beacon enhancement Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:58:46 -0400 From: "David Willmore" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit For those not on the New Jersey QRP mailing list, the project to which I am refering is http://www.njqrp.org/psk31beacon/psk31beacon.html It is a small board that uses a Ubicom SX28 with an R2R ladder to generate baseband PSK31 signals. I'm looking to modify the audio beacon design--with the addition of a simple little daughter card--to add some more functionality. For one, it will gain a little EEPROM so that it can be programmed and not forget thing when it loses power. Secondly, I want to make it more flexable so that it will do more modes. I expect to get it to do: PSK31 (psk and qpsk) maybe slower PSK CW QRS(S) Jason DifCW (there are several kinds) WOLF Maybe it will do: MSK16 RTTY It will *not* do: MT63 That I would like to ask is if there is any interest in this? So, should I only make this for myself or should I expect this to become a kit some day? If there is interest, what of the above modes stike your fancy? Comments are especially appreciated on the 'optional' modes. I expect to have a small program on a PC that will encode your mode/message into a small 'program' which is interpreted by the beacon. Something like "play this frequency for this long". That will do CW, DifCW, Jason, QRS(S), RTTY, and--I think--WOLF. There will need to be a more complex mode to do PSK and QPSK (and maybe WOLF). MSK16 will be similar but will have to say "play these *two* tones for this long". Being that flexable, it may very well support new modes that aren't designed yet with a simple upgrade of the PC software. *crosses fingers* I expect to attach 4Kb to 8Kb of EEPROM via a serial connection to store this info. I imagine that will provide a reasonably long enough period for most use. The real beauty of this design is the low cost. The base board is just $25(USD). I don't expect the add-on to cost more than half of that (no promises!). So, that sort of puts it near the expendable side of things as far as 'unattended beacon getting hit by lightning' goes. I hope that the Europeans, with their longer LF/VLF experience, will be able to contribute some of that experience WRT beacon operation. Though, those in NA should have some good information as that's about all we can do on LF/VLF. :( But not for long... Oh, please clip unnecessary groups off of the send list. I monitor all of these lists and will summarize/crosspost anything that is relevant to the other lists. I don't intend to clog up anyone's mailbox. Cheers, David N0YMV From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12186 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 03:15:03 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 03:15:03 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 19201 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2002 03:14:03 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 2002 03:14:03 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Wq4U-0003UM-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 04:10:46 +0100 Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net ([207.172.4.61]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Wq4T-0003UH-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 04:10:45 +0100 Received: from 66-44-57-83.s337.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com ([66.44.57.83] helo=esanders.erols.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #5) id 17Wq4P-0003kn-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:10:42 -0400 Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020722224253.009efa70@pop.erols.com> X-Sender: esanders@pop.erols.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:11:19 -0400 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Nan and Sandy Sanders" Subject: LF: Sound Cards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I have a question? How important is the sound card to the operation of DSP software (Argo etc). I think we have proved that almost any card will work but would we gain any thing by buying a card with a better signal to noise ratio or better dynamic range? This web page has test results showing many DB difference between cards (click on the card name for details on each card). http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/summary/index.htm Sandy WB5MMB From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29878 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 21:28:02 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 21:28:02 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 9747 invoked by uid 10001); 22 Jul 2002 21:31:36 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 21:31:36 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WkZv-0002c5-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:18:51 +0100 Received: from mrwint.cisco.com ([144.254.98.48] helo=cisco.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WkZu-0002c0-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:18:50 +0100 Received: from virgin.net (ams-clip-vpn-dhcp201.cisco.com [10.50.0.200]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA01741 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:18:18 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3D3C7615.CAD0C623@virgin.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:16:05 +0100 From: "Stewart Bryant" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: DVM Modules Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: The perils of using a reply_to address from another mail! In case the DVM purchasers were not interested in the USA and deleted the topic unread, I repeat the message with the correct subject line. Those of you that bought the DVM modules, I scanned in the data sheet. If anyone needs it, please let me know. If anyone else wants one of the modules, then I am sure we can work out a mail order price. 73 Stewart G3YSX From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19133 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 20:19:38 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 20:19:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 12197 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 20:18:30 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 20:18:29 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WjRl-0002Rj-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:06:21 +0100 Received: from mta07-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.47]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WjRk-0002Re-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:06:20 +0100 Received: from virgin.net ([80.0.77.213]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020722200620.NOIQ13709.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@virgin.net>; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:06:20 +0100 Message-ID: <3D3C5757.8DF60FC4@virgin.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:04:55 +0100 From: "Stewart Bryant" Organization: . X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: RE: USA References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Those of you that bought the DVM modules, I scanned in the data sheet. If anyone needs it, please let me know. If anyone else wants one of the modules, then I am sure we can work out a mail order price. 73 Stewart G3YSX From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15931 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 20:07:26 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 20:07:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 2575 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 20:06:27 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 20:06:27 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WjE9-0002Oz-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:52:17 +0100 Received: from fep03.swip.net ([130.244.199.131] helo=fep03-svc.swip.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WjE8-0002Ou-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:52:16 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.101.41.135]) by fep03-svc.swip.net with SMTP id <20020722195214.FTBG7098.fep03-svc.swip.net@oemcomputer>; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:52:14 +0200 Message-ID: <015001c231b9$485906e0$872965d5@oemcomputer> From: "Johan Bodin" To: hfbeacons@explore.plus.com, Ndblist@beaconworld.co.uk, rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Jason Beacon QRT Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:52:12 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi My 3mW Jason beacon on 3594 kHz is now off the air. Thanks for the reports. 73 Johan SM6LKM From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18857 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 17:07:21 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 17:07:21 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 18098 invoked by uid 10001); 22 Jul 2002 17:10:58 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 17:10:58 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WgY4-00024C-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:00:40 +0100 Received: from d06lmsgate-4.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.4]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WgY3-000247-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:00:39 +0100 Received: from d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.166.84.148]) by d06lmsgate-4.uk.ibm.COM (1.0.0) with ESMTP id RAA45428; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:42:56 +0100 Received: from usa.net (ss10.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.76]) by d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/NCO/VER6.2) with ESMTP id g6MGxaN111606; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:59:37 +0100 Message-ID: <3D3C39A8.561CB48B@usa.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:58:16 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "LF Mailing List" , lf@amrad.org, lowfer@mailman.qth.net Subject: LF: Jason V0.94 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I have just uploaded Jason V0.94 to the weaksignals site : http://www.weaksignals.com The main differences from V0.93 are : - Selectable decoder : the native one, or a new decoder written by Stewart Nelson KK7KA (the author of WOLF) which performs much better under marginal conditions. The signaling format is unchanged from V0.93 - Selectable serial output format : the bare, native one, or a format suitable to drive the LF exciter of Murray Greenman ZL1BPU, based on the AVR Atmel microcontroller. - A few minor bug fixes. Please test the new decoder under marginal conditions and report your findings. Thanks. 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1971 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 15:09:16 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 15:09:16 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 26606 invoked by uid 10001); 22 Jul 2002 15:12:54 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 15:12:53 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WeiP-0001oL-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:03:13 +0100 Received: from mrwint.cisco.com ([144.254.98.48] helo=cisco.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WeiO-0001oF-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:03:12 +0100 Received: from virgin.net (rtp-vpn2-42.cisco.com [10.82.240.42]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA17345 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:02:37 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3D3C1E06.99DD300C@virgin.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:00:22 +0100 From: "Stewart Bryant" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re: LF Roundtable References: <3D3BDF8E.17F2CEE1@usa.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020722134910.00adc928@gemini.herts.ac.uk> <3D3C0DBA.13397D9@usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Alberto di Bene wrote: > James Moritz wrote: > > > Re - computer required for Spectran, I found my old P133/16Mb had problems > > trying to run Spectran, but various machines around 300MHz seemed to be > > perfectly OK. The display on the slower computer had a peculiar "blinking" > > effect, and attempting to save the waterfall to files produced some rather > > odd-looking results. > > While the PC speed may affect the smoothness of the waterfall, I am rather > dubious that it can impact the quality of the captured images. > I would tend to point the finger on the video card used, or on the resolution > settings. Spectran works best at 24 bits-per-pixel (16,777,216 colours or 'True Color' > in Windows parlance) or at 16 bpp (that's 262,144 colours, or 'High Color'). > Working at 8 bpp is 'tolerated', but the results are less than spectacular... > Just to add some clarification, I have no interest in the quality of the local display, just the quality of the captured image. My plan is to sit this in the corner listening to MB7LF on a dedicated receiver and dumping the output to a web site every few minutes. Anyone have any thought about how frequently this needs to be? How does the system work, is the captured image derived by screen capture or from internal data? Stewart > > 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2501 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 13:56:16 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 13:56:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 25382 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 13:55:35 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 13:55:35 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Wdbm-0001an-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:52:18 +0100 Received: from d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.5]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Wdbl-0001ai-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:52:17 +0100 Received: from d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.166.84.147]) by d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com (1.0.0) with ESMTP id OAA82228 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:54:11 +0100 Received: from usa.net (ss10.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.76]) by d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/NCO/VER6.2) with ESMTP id g6MDqCu30734 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:52:12 +0100 Message-ID: <3D3C0DBA.13397D9@usa.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:50:50 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: LF Roundtable References: <3D3BDF8E.17F2CEE1@usa.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020722134910.00adc928@gemini.herts.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: James Moritz wrote: > Re - computer required for Spectran, I found my old P133/16Mb had problems > trying to run Spectran, but various machines around 300MHz seemed to be > perfectly OK. The display on the slower computer had a peculiar "blinking" > effect, and attempting to save the waterfall to files produced some rather > odd-looking results. While the PC speed may affect the smoothness of the waterfall, I am rather dubious that it can impact the quality of the captured images. I would tend to point the finger on the video card used, or on the resolution settings. Spectran works best at 24 bits-per-pixel (16,777,216 colours or 'True Color' in Windows parlance) or at 16 bpp (that's 262,144 colours, or 'High Color'). Working at 8 bpp is 'tolerated', but the results are less than spectacular... 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16539 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 13:16:00 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 13:16:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 1953 invoked by uid 10001); 22 Jul 2002 13:20:04 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 13:20:03 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WcyV-0001Ua-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:11:43 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WcyU-0001UV-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:11:42 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17WcyT-0002bT-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:11:41 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17WcyT-0001q4-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:11:41 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020722134910.00adc928@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:09:57 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: LF: Re: LF Roundtable In-reply-to: <3D3BE61A.3B8048D4@virgin.net> References: <3D3BDF8E.17F2CEE1@usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF Group, It was nice to see everyone at the LF round table, and thanks to all the presenters and CARC for an interesting day out. I'm sure the conversation would still be going on if we did not have to go home at some time! Re - computer required for Spectran, I found my old P133/16Mb had problems trying to run Spectran, but various machines around 300MHz seemed to be perfectly OK. The display on the slower computer had a peculiar "blinking" effect, and attempting to save the waterfall to files produced some rather odd-looking results. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10416 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 12:00:05 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 12:00:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 9272 invoked by uid 10001); 22 Jul 2002 12:04:09 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 12:04:09 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Wbi6-0001Hn-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:50:42 +0100 Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.81]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Wbi5-0001Hi-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:50:41 +0100 Received: from host213-123-38-192.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.123.38.192] helo=main) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17Wbi4-0000RI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:50:41 +0100 Message-ID: <000801c23175$f6c47500$5172073e@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: PC for Spectran/Argo Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:49:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Stewart, I run Spectran and Argo on what is a fairly mundane machine these days....a 200MHz with a K6 processor, and 64mB od memory. The essential is probably a proper Creative Labs sound card, the PCI64 will run Argo but will not give the audo filtering output (requiring "duplex" operation) in Spectran, but will produce the waterfalls OK. The PCI126 will run both completely successfully, on my machine. The waterfall timing marks are often show the waterfall is slightly affected by running other operations at the same time, but it is not too serious, as you would trap a screen shot then, load it up to the server. Unles there was overlap in the sample rates and the sreen 'width' this would not be seen. You will have to check with Alberto but I thing both will run successfully with and old 16bit ISA SB16 card. There is a little red/greed 'led' box (top LHS) on the waterfall display, that indicates the processor loading. My slides and the main data described at the Round Table are described on my web site, I can shoot you over GIFs of the slides if you want to compile a "Proceedings" in one place. Cheers and Thanks for a very enjoyable day Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14793 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 11:43:37 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 11:43:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 23440 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 11:42:57 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 11:42:57 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WbSk-0001Ez-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:34:50 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WbSj-0001Eu-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:34:50 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17WbSj-0000uY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:34:49 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17WbSi-0005ya-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:34:48 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020722115457.00aca6e0@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:34:47 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: Calculating ERP from measured field strength In-reply-to: <17Vx1m-26WSIKC@fwd06.sul.t-online.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020720155223.00ae8e80@gemini.herts.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 18:24 20/07/2002 +0200, you wrote: >Hi Jim, > >you measured field strength at distances between about 1.5 and 3km. >did you ever measure at distances >3xlambda, p.e. abt 7km? >if you did, did you notice different results caculating the ERP? > >regards >Uwe/dj8wx > Dear Uwe, LF Group, Yes, last year I measured field strength at distances between a few 100 metres and about 10km - The ERP calculated was reasonably constant provided the distance was greater than about 600m. Dick's measurements seem to show that this is also true at 329km, provided you take ground loss into account. Distances < 600m gave higher apparent ERP, which is consistent with being in the near field of the antenna. The text books say, with various qualifications, that the far-field region with FS proportional to 1/distance starts at about lambda/2pi, ie 350m at 136k. The limiting factor for long distances would seem to be the presence of skywave, especially at night. I used distances between 1.5 and 3km partly because I knew these would give consistent measurements with good SNR, and partly to reduce the amount of petrol I needed to put in my car! Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26493 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 11:18:56 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 11:18:56 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 7306 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 11:17:52 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 11:17:52 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Wb6S-0001BL-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:11:48 +0100 Received: from mrwint.cisco.com ([144.254.98.48] helo=cisco.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Wb6S-0001B7-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:11:48 +0100 Received: from virgin.net (rtp-vpn2-42.cisco.com [10.82.240.42]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA10633 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:11:24 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3D3BE7D7.39E972BB@virgin.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:09:12 +0100 From: "Stewart Bryant" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Spectran Compute power Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: One of the outcomes of my MB7LF talk yesterday was a request to take waterfall plots of the 136KHz band and put them up on the web. I understand that I can get .jpg sample from spectran, and then it appears that I could load these to a web site using a utility such as cuteftp (or some similar free product, or maybe I write some code myself). Anyway rather than tie up one of my main PCs with this I am going to look for a junker that can be dedicated to the task. Does anyone know how powerful a machine I need to run spectran? 73 Stewart G3YSX From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7042 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 11:10:59 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 11:10:59 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 2085 invoked by uid 10001); 22 Jul 2002 11:14:35 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 11:14:35 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WazR-00019p-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:04:33 +0100 Received: from mrwint.cisco.com ([144.254.98.48] helo=cisco.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WazQ-00019k-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:04:32 +0100 Received: from virgin.net (rtp-vpn2-42.cisco.com [10.82.240.42]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA10454 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:03:58 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3D3BE61A.3B8048D4@virgin.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:01:46 +0100 From: "Stewart Bryant" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re: LF Roundtable References: <3D3BDF8E.17F2CEE1@usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: If the speakers are willing to provide me with copies of their slides, I will arrange to for them to be put on the web as proceedings. Stewart Alberto di Bene wrote: > > Thanks to all who organised, gave presentations and attended the session. > > Nice to meet friends old and new, and I thought the lectures informative and > > stimulating. > > Anything interesting was said or lectured, worth resuming here on the list ? > TNX. > > 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16817 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 10:39:53 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 10:39:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 9125 invoked by uid 10001); 22 Jul 2002 10:43:29 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 10:43:28 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WaX9-00014Y-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:35:19 +0100 Received: from d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.5]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WaX8-00014T-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:35:18 +0100 Received: from d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.166.84.147]) by d06lmsgate-5.uk.ibm.com (1.0.0) with ESMTP id LAA75426 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:37:08 +0100 Received: from usa.net (ss8.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.73]) by d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/NCO/VER6.2) with ESMTP id g6MAZAu77604 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:35:11 +0100 Message-ID: <3D3BDF8E.17F2CEE1@usa.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:33:50 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: LF Roundtable References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > Thanks to all who organised, gave presentations and attended the session. > Nice to meet friends old and new, and I thought the lectures informative and > stimulating. Anything interesting was said or lectured, worth resuming here on the list ? TNX. 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8758 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 09:24:50 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 09:24:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 8609 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 09:24:09 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 09:24:09 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WZBA-0000uT-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:08:32 +0100 Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.81]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WZB9-0000uO-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:08:31 +0100 Received: from host213-1-187-253.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.1.187.253] helo=presario-1920) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17WZB5-0004uG-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:08:28 +0100 From: "John W Gould" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: LF Roundtable - location and directions? Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:10:28 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <3D3A64DD.850E43CE@virgin.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Thanks to all who organised, gave presentations and attended the session. Nice to meet friends old and new, and I thought the lectures informative and stimulating. Sorry that I had to dash away at the end and didn't get a chance to say goodbyes 73 John, G3WKL > -----Original Message----- > From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On > Behalf Of Stewart Bryant > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 08:38 > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Subject: Re: LF: LF Roundtable - location and directions? > > > Get to Junction 11 of the M23. > > Turn off and take the third exit at the roundabout towards Crawley > (1st is services, second is Horsham). This will be signposted > Broadfield Stadium. > > Goto the first roundabout. (the stadium will now be on your left). > Do a U turn at the roundabout and drive back towards the M23. > > There will be a slip road on your left signposted Tilgate Recreation. > Turn left and find HUT 18. Hint look for carpark on left and > large antenna on right. > > We will listen to WS on 145.750 no CTCSS required. MB7LF will > be off due to desensing. > > If you get lost near Crawley, the secret is to ask for Broadfield Statium > which is well signposted. > > 73 > > Stewart > > John W Gould wrote: > > > Can anyone help with details of the location and directios? > All ready to > > set off and the website's down it would seem - grateful for details asap > > from anyone who has the detail. I need to set off in the next > 30 mins or > > so! Others may appreciate the info on the reflector. > > > > John G3WKL > > g3wkl@btinternet.com > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28292 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2002 10:29:23 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 21 Jul 2002 10:29:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 17582 invoked by uid 10001); 21 Jul 2002 10:33:25 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 21 Jul 2002 10:33:25 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WDuF-0007JI-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 21 Jul 2002 11:25:39 +0100 Received: from irwell.zetnet.co.uk ([194.247.47.48] helo=zetnet.co.uk ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WDuE-0007JD-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 21 Jul 2002 11:25:38 +0100 Received: from a7j7r2 (man-c003.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.42.3]) by zetnet.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g6LAPad32764; Sun, 21 Jul 2002 11:25:36 +0100 Message-ID: <003b01c230a0$23a34b40$032af7c2@a7j7r2> From: "John Rabson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Cc: g0yap@msn.com, "John Pears" Subject: LF: Lightship special event station Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 11:12:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Over the weekend of 17th/18th August, in Ipswich dock, a restored light vessel will be the host to some special event stations. The organiser tells me that 136 kHz specialists would be very welcome. They would of course need to bring their own equipment but he can promise an excellent earth connection! If this is your scene, or even if you just would like to operate HF, please get in touch with g0yap@msn.com. 73 G3PAI From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7556 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2002 10:16:52 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 21 Jul 2002 10:16:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 6069 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2002 10:16:15 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 21 Jul 2002 10:16:15 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WDiM-0007HK-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 21 Jul 2002 11:13:22 +0100 Received: from cmailenv3.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.55]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WDiM-0007HF-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 21 Jul 2002 11:13:22 +0100 Received: from [62.21.130.56] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV3.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17WDiK-00086e-00; Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:13:20 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020721095922.00a05170@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:04:51 +0200 To: "Reg Edwards" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: Re: Calculating ERP from measured field strength Cc: "LF-Group" , "Dick Rollema" , "Jan Harte" , "Jaap Kroon, PA0IF" , "Klaas Robers, PA0KLS" In-reply-to: <000f01c22fed$5b513b00$118301d5@kitchen> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020720130356.009eb780@POP3.freeler.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE

Reg Edwards, G4FGQ, wrote:


I have just checked the source code in program GrndWav3.  It does make use
of CCIR curves and data for refraction over the horizon although I have had
to use some intelligent guesswork to extend to 30 MHz.  It's good to be
reassured I havn't introduced any bugs.

CCIR Recommendation 368-7 contains curves for frequencies from 10kHz up to and including 30MHz.


When available I would be pleased to have some figures of 500 to 2000 km
propagation.

There are indications that at distances over 1000km or so even at daytime some sky wave may be present, disturbing the measurement. The sky wave will be weak of course, but so will be the ground wave.

73, Dick, PA0SE

 From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20722 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2002 09:25:14 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 21 Jul 2002 09:25:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 15580 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2002 09:24:03 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 21 Jul 2002 09:24:03 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WCta-0007BI-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:20:54 +0100 Received: from hugo.fen-net.de ([212.204.115.10] ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WCtZ-0007BD-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:20:53 +0100 Received: from DEFAULT (dialin-nbg-006.fen-net.de [212.204.116.6]) by hugo.fen-net.de (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g6L9JB8j006998 for ; Sun, 21 Jul 2002 11:19:12 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <00df01c23099$f10a2a60$0674ccd4@DEFAULT> From: "Walter" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718110848.009f7960@POP3.freeler.nl> Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_LF:_Activity_from_DLF=C2=B4s_360m_mast?= Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 11:35:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Dear Dick and All,
   
    yes, we will measure the antenna current and tell after the test and we will be glad to receive the report from your W&G.
About the mast: It is half of a halfwave-dipole - or let`s say a folded groundplane. One of the two vertikal branches of this groundplane is the mast, about 3 by 3m. It is connected to ground - 120 radials, each 360m long (perfect ground?). As the groundplane is too short for 153KHz the mast has a topload consisting of 3 ropes. Length is unknown (maybe 100m??), we will estimate that when being there. The other branch of the folded groundplane consists of 3 ropes, connected to the mast in a height of about 300m, at first leading off the mast and then down and back and meeting in the matching building. It looks a little confusing. We will have the mast without any matching network, so have to take along our own equipment.
73 Walter
  
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 18. Juli 2002 11:17
Betreff: Re: LF: Activity from DLF´s 360m mast

Dear Walter and the LF-gang,

Assuming the 360m mast has no top load my antenna simulation program gives a feedpoint impedance of
Z = 11.9 - j149 ohm over perfect ground. The reactive part depends on the diameter of the mast of course which I have arbitrarily put  at 3m.
Be sure to measure the current into the mast so the EMRP can be calculated.

I will probably not be at home to work you as we will spent the day with several amateur radio friends at a camping site near Eindhoven. But I will take my W & G SPM-12 with me, together with a frame aerial so I hope I can measure your field strength.

Looking forward to an interesting experiment I wish you and your friends good luck and a good match.

73, Dick, PA0SE


At 22:24 15-7-02 +0200, you wrote:
Hello to all LF`ers,
on Wednesday, 24th of July, the 153KHz transmitter of Deutschlandfunk in Donebach (JN49ON, 50Km SSE of Frankfurt) will be off air due to scheduled maintenance. By the friendly cooperation of the site personnel and with consent of the regulation authorities, a small group of German LF amateurs has been granted access to one of the 360m masts between 7:00 and 15:00UTC. With a little luck we might be able to achieve about 30dB more radiation efficiency than at home.
     We will probably need some time to work out the impedance matching. After that, we intend to operate preferably in CW and Slow-CW modes. As we expect a rather high noisefloor from the Frankfurt area, we will bring along a tuned loop for receiving, and we will be QRV on 7030KHz in CW as well. If nothing else works, please give us a phone call on+49 174 3692499, or send an email note via the reflector or to dj2lf@darc.de or markusvester@aol.com.
     Let`s look forward to a successfull day, hopefully without thunderstorms or strong noise.
73
The group: Markus - DF6NM, Walter - DJ2LF, Ralph - DL2NDO, Ralph - DK3GH, Roland - DL3NDR, Franz - DL5NER
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15424 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2002 07:44:39 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 21 Jul 2002 07:44:39 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 28112 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2002 07:43:36 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 21 Jul 2002 07:43:36 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WBKE-000712-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 21 Jul 2002 08:40:18 +0100 Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.41]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WBKE-00070x-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 21 Jul 2002 08:40:18 +0100 Received: from virgin.net ([80.0.77.213]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020721074017.OBXM16050.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@virgin.net> for ; Sun, 21 Jul 2002 08:40:17 +0100 Message-ID: <3D3A64DD.850E43CE@virgin.net> Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 08:38:06 +0100 From: "Stewart Bryant" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: LF Roundtable - location and directions? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Get to Junction 11 of the M23. Turn off and take the third exit at the roundabout towards Crawley (1st is services, second is Horsham). This will be signposted Broadfield Stadium. Goto the first roundabout. (the stadium will now be on your left). Do a U turn at the roundabout and drive back towards the M23. There will be a slip road on your left signposted Tilgate Recreation. Turn left and find HUT 18. Hint look for carpark on left and large antenna on right. We will listen to WS on 145.750 no CTCSS required. MB7LF will be off due to desensing. If you get lost near Crawley, the secret is to ask for Broadfield Statium which is well signposted. 73 Stewart John W Gould wrote: > Can anyone help with details of the location and directios? All ready to > set off and the website's down it would seem - grateful for details asap > from anyone who has the detail. I need to set off in the next 30 mins or > so! Others may appreciate the info on the reflector. > > John G3WKL > g3wkl@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2973 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2002 06:58:39 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 21 Jul 2002 06:58:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 636 invoked by uid 10001); 21 Jul 2002 07:02:42 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 21 Jul 2002 07:02:41 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WAYt-0006v7-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 21 Jul 2002 07:51:23 +0100 Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.111]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17WAYs-0006v2-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 21 Jul 2002 07:51:22 +0100 Received: from host213-122-62-46.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.62.46] helo=presario-1920) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17WAYr-0006l2-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 21 Jul 2002 07:51:22 +0100 From: "John W Gould" To: "Rsgb_Lf_Group@Blacksheep.Org" Subject: LF: LF Roundtable - location and directions? Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 07:53:21 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Can anyone help with details of the location and directios? All ready to set off and the website's down it would seem - grateful for details asap from anyone who has the detail. I need to set off in the next 30 mins or so! Others may appreciate the info on the reflector. John G3WKL g3wkl@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9212 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2002 19:59:48 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 20 Jul 2002 19:59:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 28078 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2002 19:59:12 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 Jul 2002 19:59:12 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17W0HN-0005qZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 20:52:37 +0100 Received: from cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.195.172]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17W0HM-0005qU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 20:52:36 +0100 Received: from modem-183.nebraska.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.78.183] helo=g3aqc) by cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17W0HK-0004LZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 20:52:35 +0100 Message-ID: <001f01c23027$a8d53cc0$05e9fea9@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: LF Round Table-Sunday 21st July Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 20:55:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Derek and Co. I will be there tomorrow. Looking foreward to seeing you all. 73s Laurie. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17119 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2002 16:28:44 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 20 Jul 2002 16:28:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 5917 invoked by uid 10001); 20 Jul 2002 16:32:46 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 Jul 2002 16:32:45 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Vx24-0005Vz-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 17:24:36 +0100 Received: from mailout02.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.17]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Vx23-0005Vu-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 17:24:35 +0100 Received: from fwd06.sul.t-online.de by mailout02.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17Vx1u-0004f6-04; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 18:24:26 +0200 Received: from (0482183881-0001@[62.224.50.50]) by fwd06.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17Vx1m-26WSIKC; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 18:24:18 +0200 From: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020720155223.00ae8e80@gemini.herts.ac.uk> Subject: Re: LF: Calculating ERP from measured field strength X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 18:24:18 +0200 Message-ID: <17Vx1m-26WSIKC@fwd06.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0482183881-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: James Moritz schrieb: > Dear LF Group, > > I'm pleased to see PA0SE's FS measurements agree well with my own - it > looks like we are getting quite good at this now!. I measured my ERP a > couple of weeks ago, after making some slight improvements to my antenna; > it is still an inverted L, but it now has an average height of around 9.5m, > and the same 40m length as before. The 400mW figure was derived from an > average of 11 field strength measurements at distances between about 1.5 > and 3km. Comparing these to measurements I did last year at the same > locations, it is interesting to see that the variations in calculated ERP > between different locations are very consistent - ie. if one location gave > a measurement 1dB above the average last year, it was also 1dB above the > average this year, so whatever causes the variation is stable over quite > long periods of time. All the ERPs were within about 1.5dB of the average > ERP. > > The antenna current of 4.6A is well down on what I get on a cold winter's > day, so I think this antenna should give 500-600mW ERP under good conditions > > I used a "Jason" mode test signal when performing the measurements - this > is ideal for FS measurement, because it is practically a continuous > carrier, and makes it easy to measure the amplitude. > > Cheers, Jim Moritz > 73 de M0BMU > > Hi Jim, you measured field strength at distances between about 1.5 and 3km. did you ever measure at distances >3xlambda, p.e. abt 7km? if you did, did you notice different results caculating the ERP? regards Uwe/dj8wx From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20437 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2002 15:45:00 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 20 Jul 2002 15:45:00 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 15785 invoked by uid 10001); 20 Jul 2002 15:48:37 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 Jul 2002 15:48:36 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VwHx-0005PP-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 16:36:57 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VwHv-0005PK-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 16:36:56 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17VwHs-00077P-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 16:36:52 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17VwHr-0006R9-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 16:36:52 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020720155223.00ae8e80@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 16:34:24 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: Calculating ERP from measured field strength In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020720130356.009eb780@POP3.freeler.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF Group, I'm pleased to see PA0SE's FS measurements agree well with my own - it looks like we are getting quite good at this now!. I measured my ERP a couple of weeks ago, after making some slight improvements to my antenna; it is still an inverted L, but it now has an average height of around 9.5m, and the same 40m length as before. The 400mW figure was derived from an average of 11 field strength measurements at distances between about 1.5 and 3km. Comparing these to measurements I did last year at the same locations, it is interesting to see that the variations in calculated ERP between different locations are very consistent - ie. if one location gave a measurement 1dB above the average last year, it was also 1dB above the average this year, so whatever causes the variation is stable over quite long periods of time. All the ERPs were within about 1.5dB of the average ERP. The antenna current of 4.6A is well down on what I get on a cold winter's day, so I think this antenna should give 500-600mW ERP under good conditions I used a "Jason" mode test signal when performing the measurements - this is ideal for FS measurement, because it is practically a continuous carrier, and makes it easy to measure the amplitude. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7062 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2002 13:47:19 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 20 Jul 2002 13:47:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 21331 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2002 13:46:35 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 Jul 2002 13:46:34 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VuVn-0005Dt-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:43:07 +0100 Received: from mail5.mx.voyager.net ([216.93.66.204]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VuVm-0005Do-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:43:06 +0100 Received: from k6500 (d1.as3.mpls.mn.voyager.net [169.207.249.225] (may be forged)) by mail5.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id g6KDh0s36781 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 09:43:01 -0400 (EDT) From: "WE0H" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_LF:_Re:_Activity_from_DLF=C2=B4s_360m_mast?= Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 08:43:26 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <003901c1e0df$4bd89ae0$526152d5@it> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mail5.mx.voyager.net id g6KDh0s36781 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I agree. There is nothing wrong with trying any antenna. I hope the group has a good time with that big tower. Maybe their signals will make it across the pond for us to see. This is a mostly free world so we can do what we like and have fun doing it. Mike>WE0H http://www.we0h.us/lf.html -----Original Message----- From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of Giulio Scaroni Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 5:30 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re: Activity from DLF´s 360m mast Mmhhhhh, to many criticism in LF reflector!!!! I think that ALL the operation that may improve the activity in 136 is welcome, and this operation is one of this, in other way, we may sleep for all the summer waiting tha winter season!! 73 and good luck to DL friends... IK2DED Giulio Scaroni From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18328 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2002 13:04:35 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 20 Jul 2002 13:04:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 27934 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2002 13:03:26 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 Jul 2002 13:03:25 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VtqR-00057T-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:00:23 +0100 Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.93]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VtqQ-00057O-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:00:22 +0100 Received: from host213-1-131-17.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.1.131.17] helo=kitchen) by rhenium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17VtqO-0001T0-00; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:00:21 +0100 Message-ID: <000f01c22fed$5b513b00$118301d5@kitchen> From: "Reg Edwards" To: "LF-Group" , "Dick Rollema" Cc: "Jan Harte" , "Jaap Kroon, PA0IF" , "Klaas Robers, PA0KLS" References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020720130356.009eb780@POP3.freeler.nl> Subject: LF: Re: Calculating ERP from measured field strength Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 13:58:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello Dick and all, Thanks very much for your figures. I am not srprised at program predicting accuracy because attenuation is not very much different from 6dB for every doubling of distance and not much affected by type of ground. I consider +/- 3dB to be not very much where 300 km radio propagation is concerned. ;o) I have just checked the source code in program GrndWav3. It does make use of CCIR curves and data for refraction over the horizon although I have had to use some intelligent guesswork to extend to 30 MHz. It's good to be reassured I havn't introduced any bugs. What DOES surprise me is the accuracy of the group's measurements. There should be prizes given for such careful meticulous work ! When available I would be pleased to have some figures of 500 to 2000 km propagation. ======================== Regards from Reg G4FGQ Free Radio Design Software Go to http://www.g4fgq.com ======================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- > Reg Edwards, G4FGQ, has a free program called "Grndwav3" on his web site: > www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp/page3.html#S301. > > Entering Jim's EMRP=218mW and distance 329km the program predicts for the > field strength at PA0SE the following: > > Sea water: 10.35 microvolt/m > average: 8.18 microvolt/m > pastoral: 9.50 microvolt/m. > > I measured 11 microvolt/m so Reg's program can also be used when the CCIR > curves are not available. > 73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3776 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2002 12:57:12 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 20 Jul 2002 12:57:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 23545 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2002 12:56:28 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 Jul 2002 12:56:27 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Vtiy-00055y-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 13:52:40 +0100 Received: from www.gardaol.com ([195.223.232.51] helo=netregister.it ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Vtix-00055t-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 13:52:39 +0100 Received: from ik2dedlibero (brescia18.phoenix.it [213.82.97.82]) by netregister.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g6KCqYM20566 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:52:35 +0200 Message-ID: <003901c1e0df$4bd89ae0$526152d5@it> From: "Giulio Scaroni" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_LF:_Re:_Activity_from_DLF=C2=B4s_360m_mast?= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 00:30:17 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Mmhhhhh, to many criticism in LF reflector!!!! I think that ALL the operation that may improve the activity in 136 is welcome, and this operation is one of this, in other way, we may sleep for all the summer waiting tha winter season!! 73 and good luck to DL friends... IK2DED Giulio Scaroni From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6481 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2002 11:16:04 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 20 Jul 2002 11:16:04 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 1560 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2002 11:15:20 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 Jul 2002 11:15:20 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Vs6m-0004vl-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 12:09:08 +0100 Received: from cmailenv4.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.56]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Vs6l-0004vg-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 12:09:07 +0100 Received: from [62.21.148.203] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV4.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17Vs6h-0008LX-00; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:09:03 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020720130356.009eb780@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 13:08:39 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: Calculating ERP from measured field strength Cc: "g4fgq.regp-btinternet.com" , "Jan Harte" , "Jaap Kroon, PA0IF" , "Klaas Robers, PA0KLS" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE

Today at 0800 UTC I measured the field strength of Jim, M0BMU on 137.4kHz,  at 11 microvolt/metre.

The distance between M0BMU and PA0SE is 329km.

Using the curves for ground wave propagation in CCIR recommendation 368-7 those for "Sea water, average salinity" (epsilon 70, conductivity 5S/m) and "Land" (epsilon 40,  conductivity 30mS/m) produce the same result for Jim's ERP: 460mW (252mW EMRP) . Jim reported his ERP being 400mW (218mW EMRP); a difference of 0.6dB. Almost too good to be true!

But when I apply the graph for "Land" to the signal from  DCF 39 (distance 500km, field strength 2mV/m) I find an EMRP of 50kW and that is what is officially stated for its power. So that confirms the "Land" curve is pretty useful for distances and paths involved in my case.

Reg Edwards, G4FGQ, has a free  program called "Grndwav3" on his web site: www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp/page3.html#S301.

Entering Jim's EMRP=218mW and distance 329km the program predicts for the field strength at PA0SE the following:

Sea water: 10.35 microvolt/m
average:       8.18 microvolt/m
pastoral:       9.50 microvolt/m.

I measured 11 microvolt/m so Reg's program can also be used when the CCIR curves are not available. 

Warning: These methods only apply to ground wave propagation, so as long no sky wave is present. For distances up to a few hundred km this is true during daytime. 

73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2110 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2002 10:57:02 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 20 Jul 2002 10:57:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 22168 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2002 10:56:19 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 Jul 2002 10:56:16 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VrmW-0004s4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:48:12 +0100 Received: from mta5-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.45]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VrmW-0004rz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:48:12 +0100 Received: from roy ([80.1.17.53]) by mta5-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020720104752.JSMQ26791.mta5-svc.business.ntl.com@roy> for ; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:47:52 +0100 Message-ID: <001501c22fdb$02264140$0100000a@roy> From: "HighGain" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3D3805CB.78D558B0@diolog.de> Subject: Re: LF: test Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:48:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi dear Fabian, > I don 't see the point. Consequently you shouldn' t use e-Mail to get in > touch with other amateurs but only CW. > You are entitled to your opinion Fabian. But come on who are they trying > to kid? The submission for awards cups and medals etc with highly controversial logs from contacts > made! ( Both here in the UK & also over the pond ) When we TRY TO CALCULATE how much ERP is being > radiated from certain individuals? And not getting the calculation's like anywhere accurate or > correct? combined with the efficiency of there Ant System for the desired Freq. ( Only a very few OPS > have this type of Efficient Antenna in use for LF ). Then the rest have absolutely not a chance of making a > contact genuinely over these distances and paths considering what very few have achieved genuinely **** > ONLY BY THE SKIN OF THERE TEETH & A BIT OF LUCK **** So these some what very much smaller and > much less powerful and efficient stations had no chance of having made these so-called Trans > Atlantic contacts.... Hmmm very dubious and conspicuous. Just read between the lines Fabian, you do > not have to be a technical whiz to work that out! > Running more than 1 W ERP with excessive power is nothing to be proud of. > Neither are making false log entry's for Trans-Atlantic Awards Fabian! > But Hams are supposed to use or at least to experiment with modern > techniques as well ; we cannot > ignore the new developments, and if we did, HAM radio would be dead in a > few years.. > Yes I quite agree with this 1st statement Fabian. That Amateur Radio ops > now have never been so active > in experimental new Digital modes and techniques. What I completely > dismiss as absolute poppy-coc > is that Amateur Radio will be dead in a few years ( The complete reverse > is the truth officially ). Never > in the history of Amateur Radio has there been such a huge influx of new > Licence holders both young > and old a-like. And with the advent of the recent Global ARIU changes this > is set to be the continuing > trend Fabian ( And long may it continue ). Regards & Best Wishes Roy GM0PYC ************ THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE ************ Somewhere! Regards & Best Wishes Roy From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27464 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 15:36:51 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 15:36:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 15311 invoked by uid 10001); 19 Jul 2002 15:40:51 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 15:40:51 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VZkd-0002di-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:33:03 +0100 Received: from mailout05.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.82]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VZkc-0002da-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:33:02 +0100 Received: from fwd05.sul.t-online.de by mailout05.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17VZkD-0007gE-0F; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 17:32:37 +0200 Received: from (0482183881-0001@[62.224.53.26]) by fwd05.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17VZjy-1IGuAqC; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 17:32:22 +0200 From: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: LF:Re: Loop questions X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 17:32:22 +0200 Message-ID: <17VZjy-1IGuAqC@fwd05.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0482183881-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Ashlock,William schrieb: > Hello fellow looper! > > Have a few questions on your setup: > > >I have a loop 70m long, 12m high and 2m above ground with two windings, > >fed at the lower E (east) edge. > > >From a Feb 14 message your said you were planning a 3mm Litz loop. Does the > above a loop have this Litz wire? Also, I am interested in the AC loss > resistance you are measuring. > > I have run tests a number of loops at 185kHz with 2 to 4 turns and find the > far field radiation is less than when I parallel the same strands together. > The sensitivity to the wind is also less when the strands are in parallel. > Currently my loop is a 4-wire cable with 3mm Litz (well, 3mm including the > silk wrap) and am seeing .38 ohms AC on a 15m x 15m size (3m above gnd). > About .22 ohm of this is soil loss. > > Regarding your unusual signal propagation: I have measured the field > strength of my loops out to 125 miles with a portable SVM and mag mount > e-probe antenna at 100s of locations and find no unusual ups or downs in > strength except for the std figure '8' pattern. What's weird is that one of > the guys, 530mi from, here copies my signal (1w into loop) almost 365 days > out of the year, but this is likely the perfect distance for a one hop skip. > > > Regards, > > Bill Ashlock > > > >some weeks ago I made a field strength test L-aerial (17m mast and 340m > longwire 17m to 9m up) contra loop. > Geri/DK8KW measured the strength using his MV62. > the loop is erected N/E. DK8KW is located S from here. > result: no difference btwn the aerials as Geri reported (both 20uV/m). > so can one say the (my) loop polarizes vertical (non directional) > if used as TX-aerial? > > vv. used as RX-antennas loop to L-antenna was -63dBu to -50dBu (indicated by > a > RYCOM-rx) receiving DK8KW. > > receiving Reino/OH1TN (nearly E) RYCOM indicates no > difference btwn the two antennas. > > but Reino does not hear me if I do use the loop as TX-aerial. > with the L-aerial conn to the TX Reino gives me regular RST 569. > > regards > dj8wx/Uwe > Hi Bill, pse see " qsl.net/dj8wx/00014.html " regards Uwe/dj8wx From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4906 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 15:06:03 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 15:06:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 4930 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 15:05:12 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 15:05:12 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VZGF-0002Xd-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:01:39 +0100 Received: from smarthost4.mail.uk.easynet.net ([212.135.6.14]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VZGE-0002XW-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:01:38 +0100 Received: from tnt-18-33.easynet.co.uk ([212.134.224.33] helo=erica) by smarthost4.mail.uk.easynet.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17VWen-000MeY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:14:49 +0100 Message-ID: <001f01c22f1f$70e14ba0$21e086d4@erica> From: "g3ldo" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> <5.1.0.14.0.20020716150706.00b88cf8@pb623250.kuleuven.be> <3D344924.1794B335@otenet.gr> <002301c22e6d$1a0f04a0$5afc7ad5@j1r9b7> Subject: LF: Re: Reminder - LF Round Table - Sunday 21st July Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:25:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > Herewith a reminder to UK LFers regarding the forthcoming LF gathering at > the Crawley Club next Sunday 21st July. > > Doors open at about 10-00am. For more details see the programme page of the > CARC website and elsewhere on the site details of how to find us - > www.carc.org.uk > XYL Erica has some confounded equestrian event with which I am required to assist. Hopefully it will be only for the early morning and I hope to up at Crawley a bit later. Regards, Peter, G3LDO e-mail Web From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14745 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 13:52:13 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 13:52:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 4298 invoked by uid 10001); 19 Jul 2002 13:56:13 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 13:56:13 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VY3q-0002GC-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:44:46 +0100 Received: from moutvdomng0.kundenserver.de ([195.20.224.130] helo=moutvdomng0.schlund.de) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VY3p-0002G7-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:44:45 +0100 Received: from [195.20.224.220] (helo=mrvdomng1.kundenserver.de) by moutvdomng0.schlund.de with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 17VY3n-0001bp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:44:43 +0200 Received: from [217.1.74.86] (helo=diolog.de) by mrvdomng1.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 17VY3m-0002GM-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:44:42 +0200 Message-ID: <3D3805CB.78D558B0@diolog.de> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:27:55 +0100 From: "Fabian Kurz" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [de] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: test References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: pong radio radio schrieb: > ping > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16249 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 10:22:09 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 10:22:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 28981 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 10:21:25 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 10:21:24 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VUpb-0001oU-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:17:51 +0100 Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.176]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VUpa-0001oP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:17:50 +0100 Received: from host213-122-34-52.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.34.52] helo=presario-1920) by protactinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17VUpZ-000144-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:17:49 +0100 From: "John W Gould" To: "Rsgb_Lf_Group@Blacksheep.Org" Subject: LF: LF Forum Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:19:47 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I hope to be there on Sunday John, G3WKL From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4427 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 09:45:07 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 09:45:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 25728 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 09:44:22 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 09:44:22 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VUFk-0001id-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:40:48 +0100 Received: from carbon.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.92] helo=carbon) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VUFj-0001iY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:40:47 +0100 Received: from host213-122-210-74.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.210.74] helo=main) by carbon with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17VUFh-0007O9-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:40:46 +0100 Message-ID: <000101c22f08$5888cf40$4ad27ad5@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: More big flares Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:04:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, there was another X-Class flare yesterday morning at about 0730. I have read a comment that these large flares are more prevalent on the 'tail' of the sunspot maximum, so we could be in for quite a few more yet, before the sun goes to sleep again. Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28361 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 08:00:07 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 08:00:07 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 20649 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 07:59:22 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 07:59:22 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VSd1-0001Vj-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:56:43 +0100 Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.85]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VSd0-0001Ve-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:56:42 +0100 Received: from telemetry.demon.co.uk ([194.222.19.114]) by anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #2) id 17VScn-0006Q7-0U for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:56:39 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:01:40 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Tom Boucher" Subject: Re: LF: Activity In-reply-to: <001a01c22e90$08606aa0$6aa3edc2@oemuser> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.03a Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello Urban I will look for you at 0600 and again at 0900 UTC tomorrow 20/07/02. Like you, I don't have time to spend hours and hours CQing to myself on 136! 73, Tom G3OLB In message <001a01c22e90$08606aa0$6aa3edc2@oemuser>, Urban ekholm writes >HI All ! > >Instead of writing a lot of rubbish on this reflector, how about some activity >on the band ? > >I was on calling a lot of CQ:s on last sunday , monday and tuesday evenings >between ~19 and 21Z and also a lot of CQ:s on monday, tuesday and wednesday >mornings. The static level was then very low (compared to the days before), but >not a single beep was heard. > >Maybe it is only the contacts across the pond that counts nowadays on 136, but >PLEASE REMEMBER there are a lot (most ) of us without acres for antennas who >still want to give it a try. > >(I am running 1kW to a 15m vertical with 2x30m of toploading (that's all there >is space for !)). > >You guys in Germany with the big antenna: Good luck with the operation, >hopefully it is possible for me to be QRV at that time. > >73 de SM5EUF / Urban > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13525 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 07:39:03 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 07:39:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 14446 invoked by uid 10001); 19 Jul 2002 07:43:02 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 07:43:02 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VSIG-0001SK-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:35:16 +0100 Received: from irwell.zetnet.co.uk ([194.247.47.48] helo=zetnet.co.uk ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VSIG-0001SF-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:35:16 +0100 Received: from a7j7r2 (man-c033.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.42.33]) by zetnet.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g6J7ZEF07421 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:35:14 +0100 Message-ID: <005801c22ef6$19856400$212af7c2@a7j7r2> From: "John Rabson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3D37B134.29195.29285@localhost> Subject: LF: LF Forum Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 07:35:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Unfortunately, I can't make it. It's the time to Chase the Authors for the next copy of the CREG Journal. Regards, John Rabson (G3PAI) Editor Cave Radio and Electronics Journal From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11036 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 06:07:35 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 06:07:35 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 26781 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 06:06:57 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 06:06:57 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VQrd-0001I9-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 07:03:41 +0100 Received: from f25.law10.hotmail.com ([64.4.15.25] helo=hotmail.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VQrc-0001I4-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 07:03:40 +0100 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:03:08 -0700 Received: from 213.101.40.215 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 06:03:08 GMT X-Originating-IP: [213.101.40.215] From: "radio radio" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: test Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 06:03:08 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jul 2002 06:03:08.0460 (UTC) FILETIME=[F487E6C0:01C22EE9] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ping _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4355 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 05:33:19 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 05:33:19 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 23975 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 05:32:34 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 05:32:34 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VQHI-0001Cm-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 06:26:08 +0100 Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.93]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VQHH-0001Ch-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 06:26:07 +0100 Received: from host213-123-38-246.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.123.38.246] helo=dave) by rhenium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17VQHG-0004gS-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 06:26:07 +0100 From: dsergeant@connectfree.co.uk To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 06:27:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: LF: re: LF Forum Message-ID: <3D37B134.29195.29285@localhost> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Mail message body Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I shall also not be attending the forum. I am taking part in the Low Power contest on 80m/40m as G3YMC/P. 73s Dave G3YMC dsergeant@iee.org dsergeant@btinternet.com http://www.dsergeant.btinternet.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4171 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 00:23:38 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 00:23:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 11466 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 00:22:54 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 00:22:53 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VLTd-0000by-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 01:18:33 +0100 Received: from mail4.mx.voyager.net ([216.93.66.203]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VLTb-0000bt-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 01:18:32 +0100 Received: from k6500 (d27.as3.mpls.mn.voyager.net [169.207.249.251] (may be forged)) by mail4.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id g6J0ITa34676 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:18:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "WE0H" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_LF:_Re:_Activity_from_DLF=C2=B4s_360m_mast?= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:18:57 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: <002301c22dc5$8379ccc0$242af7c2@a7j7r2> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mail4.mx.voyager.net id g6J0ITa34676 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dang, now that would start a tree on fire!!! Mike>WE0H http://www.we0h.us/lf.html -----Original Message----- From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of John Rabson Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 2:09 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re: Activity from DLF´s 360m mast ----- Original Message ----- From: "hamilton mal" > ... What credit could I claim for a > a signal on 73/136 khz swamping the band at hundreds of DB's over S9 Hmm..... What is he using for a power source? Taking S9 as 50uV in 50 ohm I get -103dBW. Assuming he's talking of 200dB higher, that is 97dBW. Assuming he's talking of 300dB higher, that is 197dBW. ISTR from school physics that the total output of the Sun is about 266dBW. QROOO! 73 de G3PAI From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17075 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 00:22:22 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 00:22:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 10706 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2002 00:21:37 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 00:21:37 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VLSd-0000br-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 01:17:31 +0100 Received: from mail5.mx.voyager.net ([216.93.66.204]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VLSb-0000bm-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 01:17:30 +0100 Received: from k6500 (d27.as3.mpls.mn.voyager.net [169.207.249.251] (may be forged)) by mail5.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id g6J0HQ648501 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:17:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "WE0H" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_LF:_Re:_Activity_from_DLF=C2=B4s_360m_mast?= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:17:54 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: <000801c22db8$45e58fa0$74e5fc3e@l8p8y6> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mail5.mx.voyager.net id g6J0HQ648501 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Big loops in the USA. Mike>WE0H http://www.we0h.us/lf.html -----Original Message----- From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of hamilton mal Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 12:34 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re: Activity from DLF´s 360m mast I wonder what next is about to hit the LF scene!!!!! G3KEV From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9494 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2002 22:01:32 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 22:01:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 23988 invoked by uid 10001); 18 Jul 2002 22:05:31 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 22:05:31 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VJGg-0000DA-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 22:57:02 +0100 Received: from fep03.swip.net ([130.244.199.131] helo=fep03-svc.swip.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VJGf-0000D4-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 22:57:01 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.101.37.120]) by fep03-svc.swip.net with SMTP id <20020718215657.REYZ7098.fep03-svc.swip.net@oemcomputer>; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:56:57 +0200 Message-ID: <002501c22ea6$0a9ceb20$782565d5@oemcomputer> From: "Johan Bodin" To: hfbeacons@explore.plus.com, lowfer@mailman.qth.net, Ndblist@beaconworld.co.uk, rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <172.b70da36.2a6784ab@aol.com> Subject: LF: Hifer - New band, new mode Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:41:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All I have a new beacon running on the 80 meter band: -- Center frequency: 3594 kHz (+/- a few Hz just for the challenge :-) Mode: Jason (decoder at www.weaksignals.com (thanks Alberto!)); Power: 3mW Antenna: Dipole at 9m height -- The SM6LKM "Hifer" beacon on 14101.12 MHz will be QRT for a while. 73 Johan SM6LKM From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10812 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2002 19:25:23 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 19:25:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 20549 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2002 19:24:14 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 19:24:14 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VGpc-0008EL-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:20:56 +0100 Received: from smtp01.spray.se ([212.78.193.245]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VGpb-0008EB-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:20:56 +0100 Received: from oemuser (t3o940p106.telia.com [194.237.163.106]) by smtp01.spray.se (Postfix) with SMTP id EFF20435B8 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 22:20:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001a01c22e90$08606aa0$6aa3edc2@oemuser> From: "Urban ekholm" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Activity Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 21:18:26 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
HI All !
 
Instead of writing a lot of rubbish on this reflector, how about some activity on the band ?
 
I was on calling a lot of CQ:s on last sunday , monday and tuesday evenings between ~19 and 21Z and also a lot of CQ:s on monday, tuesday and wednesday mornings. The static level was then very low (compared to the days before), but not a single beep was heard.
 
Maybe it is only the contacts across the pond that counts nowadays on 136, but PLEASE REMEMBER there are a lot (most ) of us without acres for antennas who still want to give it a try.
 
(I am running 1kW to a 15m vertical with 2x30m of toploading (that's all there is space for !)).
 
You guys in Germany with the big antenna: Good luck with the operation, hopefully it is possible for me to be QRV at that time. 
 
73 de SM5EUF / Urban  
 
 
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24924 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2002 17:28:04 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 17:28:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 11776 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2002 17:27:26 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 17:27:26 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VEx6-0007wY-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:20:32 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VEx5-0007wS-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:20:31 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17VEx4-0007CH-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:20:30 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17VEx3-0000iP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:20:30 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718181800.00b1c9c0@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:20:27 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: Reminder - LF Round Table - Sunday 21st July In-reply-to: <002301c22e6d$1a0f04a0$5afc7ad5@j1r9b7> References: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> <5.1.0.14.0.20020716150706.00b88cf8@pb623250.kuleuven.be> <3D344924.1794B335@otenet.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 15:26 18/07/2002 +0100, you wrote: >Herewith a reminder to UK LFers regarding the forthcoming LF gathering at >the Crawley Club next Sunday 21st July Dear Derek, LF Group, Hope to see you there on Sunday, Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16189 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2002 17:26:07 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 17:26:07 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 23514 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2002 17:24:59 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 17:24:59 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VEuQ-0007vu-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:17:46 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VEuP-0007vp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:17:46 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17VEuN-00079W-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:17:43 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17VEuN-0000gk-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:17:43 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718175457.00ae0de0@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:05:24 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: BRAZILIAN TELECOM AUTHORITIES SUPPORTS 137KHZ BAND FOR AMATEUR USE In-reply-to: <003f01c22e5b$31c83060$c00b0805@globocabo.com.br> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Marcus, I Look forward to you becoming QRV on the band - at about 9500 km from the UK, it is a new target for us to aim for! Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU >Besides Paraguai and Urugay, ANATEL - the Brazilian FCC equivalent - agreed >that the 135.7 - 137.8 KHz segment can be alocated to Amateur Radio purposes >on a secondary basis. >Vy happy = :o) > >73 >Marcus >PY3CRX/PY2PLL >S. B. do Campo - GG66rf >http://py.qsl.br >Active from "DC" to 24GHz From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17370 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2002 15:53:46 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 15:53:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 15817 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2002 15:53:06 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 15:53:06 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VDXB-0007ff-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:49:41 +0100 Received: from carbon.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.92] helo=carbon) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VDXA-0007fa-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:49:40 +0100 Received: from host217-35-1-241.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([217.35.1.241] helo=dellboy) by carbon with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17VDX9-0007W4-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:49:39 +0100 Message-ID: <000401c22e72$c2876dc0$1700a8c0@home> From: "Dave Pick" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> <5.1.0.14.0.20020716150706.00b88cf8@pb623250.kuleuven.be> <3D344924.1794B335@otenet.gr> <002301c22e6d$1a0f04a0$5afc7ad5@j1r9b7> Subject: LF: Re: Reminder - LF Round Table - Sunday 21st July Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:49:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Derek and other round-tablers. Sorry to miss the event, it clashes with our family holiday. I hope to be on from Cornwall next week. 73 and good luck with the meeting. Dave G3YXM. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Atter" To: Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 3:26 PM Subject: LF: Reminder - LF Round Table - Sunday 21st July > Herewith a reminder to UK LFers regarding the forthcoming LF gathering at > the Crawley Club next Sunday 21st July. > > Doors open at about 10-00am. For more details see the programme page of the > CARC website and elsewhere on the site details of how to find us - > www.carc.org.uk > > Light refreshments will be available. Many people will probably bring a > packed lunch but there are also several pubs etc. nearby plus a bar and > carvery by the lake for those who would like to go out for lunch. > > 73, Derek Atter G3GRO > > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6234 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2002 15:18:43 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 15:18:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 28004 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2002 15:17:58 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 15:17:58 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VCyv-0007aY-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:14:17 +0100 Received: from carbon.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.92] helo=carbon) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17VCyu-0007aT-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:14:17 +0100 Received: from host213-122-252-90.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.252.90] helo=j1r9b7) by carbon with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17VCyp-0002Jg-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:14:12 +0100 Message-ID: <002301c22e6d$1a0f04a0$5afc7ad5@j1r9b7> From: "Derek Atter" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> <5.1.0.14.0.20020716150706.00b88cf8@pb623250.kuleuven.be> <3D344924.1794B335@otenet.gr> Subject: LF: Reminder - LF Round Table - Sunday 21st July Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:26:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Herewith a reminder to UK LFers regarding the forthcoming LF gathering at the Crawley Club next Sunday 21st July. Doors open at about 10-00am. For more details see the programme page of the CARC website and elsewhere on the site details of how to find us - www.carc.org.uk Light refreshments will be available. Many people will probably bring a packed lunch but there are also several pubs etc. nearby plus a bar and carvery by the lake for those who would like to go out for lunch. 73, Derek Atter G3GRO From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10866 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2002 11:35:49 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 11:35:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 19542 invoked by uid 10001); 18 Jul 2002 11:39:27 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 11:39:26 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17V9UB-00072p-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:30:19 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17V9UA-00072k-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:30:18 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17V9U9-0003f7-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:30:17 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17V9U4-0003sP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:30:12 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718110639.00a83800@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:30:09 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?LF:_Re:_Activity_from_DLF=B4s_360m_mast?= In-reply-to: <000801c22db8$45e58fa0$74e5fc3e@l8p8y6> References: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> <5.1.0.14.0.20020716150706.00b88cf8@pb623250.kuleuven.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Mal, LF Group, At 18:34 17/07/2002 +0100, you wrote: >How could you consider this as an experiment, the outcome is obvious, a big >signal from a commercial antenna installation. This is not amateur radio >experimentation on LF. If that is the only outcome you are interested in, then that is probably true. But after a few years of LF operation there is remarkably limited quantitative information available about LF antennas, although this lack of knowledge does not stop people loudly voicing their opinions on the subject. Indeed, in amateur radio as a whole, there is probably more rubbish talked, and less reliable information, about antennas than any other subject. This is surprising, because everybody acknowledges antennas are "the most important part of the station", and real facts and figures would be much more useful than statements like "I got 599 from a ZY7 the other day". Even if no operation were possible from the DLF site, it would be an interesting experience for the members of the expedition - it isn't every day you get to play around with "proper" LF hardware! If nothing else, a big signal from DL would be an opportunity for stations who do not have good LF receiving capability to hear something interesting on the band - this was certainly true at the G3WSC Puckeridge expedition. Then there is the opportunity to make measurements such as field strength and antenna impedance, which you don't often get to do with this type of antenna. This would be a valuable addition to the very limited factual information we have about LF antennas of all shapes and sizes - the fact that the signal from such an antenna is big is no surprise, but "how much bigger?" is the interesting question. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18459 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2002 10:23:56 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 10:23:56 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 22788 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2002 10:22:55 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 10:22:55 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17V8Nt-0006tB-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:19:45 +0100 Received: from mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.50]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17V8Ns-0006t6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:19:44 +0100 Received: from dell-rik.fys.kuleuven.ac.be ([10.33.165.177]) by mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g6IAJDEc084948 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:19:13 +0200 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718120508.00b95bf8@pb623250.kuleuven.be> X-Sender: pb623250@pb623250.kuleuven.be X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:22:39 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_LF:_Activity_from_DLF=C2=B4s_360m_mast?= In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718110848.009f7960@POP3.freeler.nl> References: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit At 11:17 18/07/2002 +0200, PA0SE wrote:
Dear Walter and the LF-gang,

Assuming the 360m mast has no top load my antenna simulation program gives a feedpoint impedance of
Z = 11.9 - j149 ohm over perfect ground. The reactive part depends on the diameter of the mast of course which I have arbitrarily put  at 3m.
Be sure to measure the current into the mast so the EMRP can be calculated.

quite impressing ...
That would mean than no more than 214mA antenna current would be needed to get 1W ERP. If the antenna has a +/- 50% efficiency that would mean that about 1.1W input power will do the job. The overall gain of the antenna system would be close to 0dBd, that would be 30 to 35dB better than most ham antennas.
A ham signal from the Frankfurt area is S8 with me (using a calibrated s-meter), so I guess that running a few 100W into the monster will produce S9+30dB, a nice signal but still no more than 1.6mV into 50 Ohm (I'm afraid to little to burn a lamp)
The other way arround : taking into account that 1mW ERP is sufficient to get a good QRSS signal over most of Europe it would have been interesting to run just 1mW into the big antenna during one night (in winter) a see how far that travels. A pitty that the activity will be just a few hours.

73, Rik  ON7YD

From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19621 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2002 09:20:37 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 09:20:37 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 13985 invoked by uid 10001); 18 Jul 2002 09:24:15 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 09:24:15 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17V7O4-0006kl-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:15:52 +0100 Received: from cmailenv2.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.54]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17V7O3-0006kg-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:15:51 +0100 Received: from [62.21.132.137] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV2.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17V7Ny-0007Nl-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:15:46 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718110848.009f7960@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:17:29 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_LF:_Activity_from_DLF=C2=B4s_360m_mast?= In-reply-to: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Dear Walter and the LF-gang,

Assuming the 360m mast has no top load my antenna simulation program gives a feedpoint impedance of
Z = 11.9 - j149 ohm over perfect ground. The reactive part depends on the diameter of the mast of course which I have arbitrarily put  at 3m.
Be sure to measure the current into the mast so the EMRP can be calculated.

I will probably not be at home to work you as we will spent the day with several amateur radio friends at a camping site near Eindhoven. But I will take my W & G SPM-12 with me, together with a frame aerial so I hope I can measure your field strength.

Looking forward to an interesting experiment I wish you and your friends good luck and a good match.

73, Dick, PA0SE


At 22:24 15-7-02 +0200, you wrote:
Hello to all LF`ers,
on Wednesday, 24th of July, the 153KHz transmitter of Deutschlandfunk in Donebach (JN49ON, 50Km SSE of Frankfurt) will be off air due to scheduled maintenance. By the friendly cooperation of the site personnel and with consent of the regulation authorities, a small group of German LF amateurs has been granted access to one of the 360m masts between 7:00 and 15:00UTC. With a little luck we might be able to achieve about 30dB more radiation efficiency than at home.
     We will probably need some time to work out the impedance matching. After that, we intend to operate preferably in CW and Slow-CW modes. As we expect a rather high noisefloor from the Frankfurt area, we will bring along a tuned loop for receiving, and we will be QRV on 7030KHz in CW as well. If nothing else works, please give us a phone call on+49 174 3692499, or send an email note via the reflector or to dj2lf@darc.de or markusvester@aol.com.
     Let`s look forward to a successfull day, hopefully without thunderstorms or strong noise.
73
The group: Markus - DF6NM, Walter - DJ2LF, Ralph - DL2NDO, Ralph - DK3GH, Roland - DL3NDR, Franz - DL5NER
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15447 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2002 07:45:52 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 07:45:52 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 6923 invoked by uid 10001); 18 Jul 2002 07:49:53 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 07:49:53 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17V5ry-0006Vj-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:38:38 +0100 Received: from mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.50]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17V5rx-0006Ve-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:38:37 +0100 Received: from dell-rik.fys.kuleuven.ac.be ([10.33.165.177]) by mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g6I7c5Ec079308 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:38:05 +0200 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718092923.00b8e338@pb623250.kuleuven.be> X-Sender: pb623250@pb623250.kuleuven.be X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:41:33 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_LF:_Re:_Activity_from_DLF=C2=B4s_360m___mast?= In-reply-to: <000801c22db8$45e58fa0$74e5fc3e@l8p8y6> References: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> <5.1.0.14.0.20020716150706.00b88cf8@pb623250.kuleuven.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 18:34 17/07/2002 +0100, G3KEV wrote: >What credit could I claim for a a signal on 73/136 khz swamping the band >at hundreds of DB's over S9 Hi Mal, S9+100dB would equal a power of more than 1.5kW, S9+200dB would be 1250GW (yes, Giga-Watt) ... I believe that would solve the problem of wireless electric power distribution for once and ever. I strongly suggest to sell all stocks of power distributors, cable manufacturers etc.. as the BIG KEV unlimited company will take over that business soon. 73, Rik ON7YD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6865 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2002 00:07:32 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 00:07:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 399 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2002 00:06:47 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 00:06:47 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UykC-0005gY-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 01:02:08 +0100 Received: from www.ietf54.wide.ad.jp ([133.93.192.80] helo=mail.ietf54.wide.ad.jp) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UykB-0005gT-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 01:02:07 +0100 Received: from virgin.net (STBRYANT-W2K1.dyn.ietf54.wide.ad.jp [133.93.71.228]) by mail.ietf54.wide.ad.jp (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6I020u16056 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:02:02 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3D3604F9.8140D550@virgin.net> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 00:59:53 +0100 From: "Stewart Bryant" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_LF:_Re:_Activity_from_DLF=C2=B4s_360m_mast?= References: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> <5.1.0.14.0.20020716150706.00b88cf8@pb623250.kuleuven.be> <000801c22db8$45e58fa0$74e5fc3e@l8p8y6> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mail.ietf54.wide.ad.jp id g6I020u16056 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: hamilton mal wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rik Strobbe" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 2:21 PM > Subject: Re: LF: Re: Activity from DLF´s 360m mast > > > I don't think it is a matter of impressing someone but just of taking a > > chance to experiment, > > How could you consider this as an experiment, the outcome is obvious, a big > signal from a commercial antenna installation. This is not amateur radio > experimentation on LF. If it gives us another data-point on the antenna size vs ERP curve, it is a valid and worthwhile experiment. Stewart G3YSX From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23164 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2002 21:05:09 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 17 Jul 2002 21:05:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 15749 invoked by uid 10001); 17 Jul 2002 21:09:08 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 Jul 2002 21:09:08 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UvtE-0005Fo-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:59:16 +0100 Received: from fep03.swip.net ([130.244.199.131] helo=fep03-svc.swip.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UvtD-0005Fi-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:59:15 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.101.40.33]) by fep03-svc.swip.net with SMTP id <20020717205914.GNWL7098.fep03-svc.swip.net@oemcomputer> for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:59:14 +0200 Message-ID: <001b01c22dd4$d1456d60$212865d5@oemcomputer> From: "Johan Bodin" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> <5.1.0.14.0.20020716150706.00b88cf8@pb623250.kuleuven.be> <000801c22db8$45e58fa0$74e5fc3e@l8p8y6> <002301c22dc5$8379ccc0$242af7c2@a7j7r2> Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_LF:_Re:_Activity_from_DLF=C2=B4s_360m_mast?= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:59:15 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: John Rabson wrote: > Hmm..... What is he using for a power source? Mal wrote DB's not dB's. DB's is probably an abbreviation of "Digital Bananas", the small black S-meter bars that can be found on modern plastic radios with LCD. 73 Johan SM6LKM From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17218 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2002 19:18:48 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 17 Jul 2002 19:18:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 27260 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2002 19:18:11 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 Jul 2002 19:18:11 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UuGj-000531-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:15:25 +0100 Received: from irwell.zetnet.co.uk ([194.247.47.48] helo=zetnet.co.uk ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UuGi-00052w-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:15:24 +0100 Received: from a7j7r2 (man-c036.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.42.36]) by zetnet.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g6HJFMk30532 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:15:22 +0100 Message-ID: <002301c22dc5$8379ccc0$242af7c2@a7j7r2> From: "John Rabson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> <5.1.0.14.0.20020716150706.00b88cf8@pb623250.kuleuven.be> <000801c22db8$45e58fa0$74e5fc3e@l8p8y6> Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_LF:_Re:_Activity_from_DLF=C2=B4s_360m_mast?= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:08:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "hamilton mal" > ... What credit could I claim for a > a signal on 73/136 khz swamping the band at hundreds of DB's over S9 Hmm..... What is he using for a power source? Taking S9 as 50uV in 50 ohm I get -103dBW. Assuming he's talking of 200dB higher, that is 97dBW. Assuming he's talking of 300dB higher, that is 197dBW. ISTR from school physics that the total output of the Sun is about 266dBW. QROOO! 73 de G3PAI From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1634 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2002 19:13:52 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 17 Jul 2002 19:13:52 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 15914 invoked by uid 10001); 17 Jul 2002 19:17:50 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 Jul 2002 19:17:50 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UuAJ-00051Z-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:08:47 +0100 Received: from smtp1.wanadoo.nl ([194.134.35.136]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UuAI-00051U-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:08:46 +0100 Received: from nl9222@wanadoo (rot2-p2140.dial.wanadoo.nl [212.129.228.92]) by smtp1.wanadoo.nl (Postfix) with SMTP id 180445B533 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:08:43 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:9:39 +0100 From: "K.Versteeg" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?LF:_Re:=5FActivity=5Ffrom=5FDLF=C2=B4s=5F360m=5Fmast?= X-Mailer: FoxMail 2.1 [en] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20020717190843.180445B533@smtp1.wanadoo.nl> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >I wonder what next is about to hit the LF scene!!!!! >G3KEV A brother, if you have one. NL9222 From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20455 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2002 18:30:27 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 17 Jul 2002 18:30:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 189 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2002 18:29:20 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 Jul 2002 18:29:20 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UtOs-0004uW-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 19:19:46 +0100 Received: from mta5-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.45]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UtOr-0004uR-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 19:19:45 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.229.116]) by mta2-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020717173435.UMER8659.mta2-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:34:35 +0100 Message-ID: <000801c22db8$45e58fa0$74e5fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> <5.1.0.14.0.20020716150706.00b88cf8@pb623250.kuleuven.be> Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_LF:_Re:_Activity_from_DLF=C2=B4s_360m_mast?= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:34:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rik Strobbe" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 2:21 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: Activity from DLF´s 360m mast > I don't think it is a matter of impressing someone but just of taking a > chance to experiment, How could you consider this as an experiment, the outcome is obvious, a big signal from a commercial antenna installation. This is not amateur radio experimentation on LF. By all means have a fun day out but dont try and justify this as any sort of achievement on LF. Time spent on improving one's own installation would be more appropriate. And as a matter of fact I have connections on commercial sites with similar antennas and would not even think about it. What credit could I claim for a a signal on 73/136 khz swamping the band at hundreds of DB's over S9 I can span the Atlantic with my home antenna installation and home built transmitter on 136 khz. I wonder what next is about to hit the LF scene!!!!! G3KEV G3KEV and isn't this what LF is all about ? > Nobody is obliged to participate and the activity is very restricted in > time, so apart from one or two "wounded ego's" no harm will be done. > Good luck to Walter and his gang ... > > 73, Rik ON7YD > > PS : Keeping in mind the RX problems at "big antenna" sites that occured in > the past it might be useful to have a RX site at some distance (1..2 km) > > At 13:26 16/07/2002 +0100, you wrote: > >Hello LF'ers, > >And you will still not be ( Or ever will be ) as potentialy efficient as > >MM0ALM Dave Nr Stonehaven ever was! If you have to use the aid of Commercial > >Masts, Tower Blocks, Computer DATA, Remote Links and Repeater Networks or > >Gateways... THEN WHY BOTHER AT ALL? It's one big farse and you lot are not > >impressing anybody one iota. > > > >Regards & Best Wishes > >Roy > >GM0PYC > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29241 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2002 00:06:11 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 17 Jul 2002 00:06:11 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 8075 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2002 00:05:27 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 Jul 2002 00:05:27 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UcEt-0002ya-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:00:19 +0100 Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net ([207.172.4.62]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UcEs-0002yV-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:00:18 +0100 Received: from 66-44-69-243.s497.tnt8.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com ([66.44.69.243] helo=nanandsandy) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #5) id 17UcEp-0001eC-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 20:00:16 -0400 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 20:00:30 -0400 Message-ID: <01C22D03.6FB6D4C0.esanders@erols.com> From: "Nan and Sandy Sanders" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: LF activity from commercial 360m mast Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 19:57:20 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: borax tossers ?????? I think we need a NZ slang lesson. Sandy WB5MMB ---------- From: Dave Brown[SMTP:tractorb@ihug.co.nz] Reply To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 4:56 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: LF activity from commercial 360m mast Walter etc-- As one who has done this a couple of times down here in ZL - it generates a lot of interest/activity and is definitely FUN. Forget the borax tossers- go for it! Matching should not be too hard if you can get the existing loading temporarily disconnected from either the mast, and do it all yourselves, or from the tx end , and make use of it , by adding a bit more inductance. And do be aware of the comments re high noise levels from the mast on rx,-- they can be very high-specially if there are any electric fences running anywhere within several miles of the place!!! A separate rx antenna is definitely a good idea- if only as a backup. 73 Dave, ZL3FJ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12443 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 21:38:42 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 21:38:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 24244 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 21:37:44 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 21:37:44 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UZyJ-0002c0-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 22:35:03 +0100 Received: from fep01.swip.net ([130.244.199.129] helo=fep01-svc.swip.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UZyI-0002bv-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 22:35:02 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.101.38.126]) by fep01-svc.swip.net with SMTP id <20020716213501.ZDSD1419.fep01-svc.swip.net@oemcomputer> for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 23:35:01 +0200 Message-ID: <004101c22d10$a6c8cf60$7e2665d5@oemcomputer> From: "Johan Bodin" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> <001c01c22cc4$0d1b4ba0$0100000a@roy> <002e01c22d0e$66ddd000$fc9a17d2@steve> Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?LF:_Re:_Re:_Re:_Activity_from_DLF=B4s_360m_mast?= Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 23:35:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > Farse ? What is "farse" ? Probably a local dialect plural form of fart. :) Johan SM6LKM From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8469 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 21:36:37 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 21:36:37 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 1445 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 21:35:32 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 21:35:32 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UZwP-0002bd-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 22:33:05 +0100 Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.36]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UZwO-0002bY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 22:33:04 +0100 Received: from WarmSpgs@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.6.2bfd857a (30960) for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 17:32:56 -0400 (EDT) From: WarmSpgs@aol.com Message-ID: <6.2bfd857a.2a65eb07@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 17:32:55 EDT Subject: Re: LF: Re: Activity from DLF?s 360m mast To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: In a message dated 7/16/02 12:33:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sv8qg@otenet.gr writes: >> I agree with Rik it's a great opportunity to make some measurements with a real aerial... >> A very good point. If actual measurements are performed, it could be an eye opening experience to compare an aerial of known efficiency with one typical of home installations. 73, John Davis From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 582 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 21:32:39 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 21:32:39 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 2285 invoked by uid 10001); 16 Jul 2002 21:36:18 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 21:36:17 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UZpD-0002Zf-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 22:25:39 +0100 Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.92]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UZpC-0002Za-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 22:25:38 +0100 Received: from pickmere.demon.co.uk ([158.152.117.143]) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17UZpA-00001h-0Y for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 22:25:37 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 19:14:31 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "M.J.Powell" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_LF:_Re:_Activity_from_DLF=B4s_360m_mast?= References: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> <001c01c22cc4$0d1b4ba0$0100000a@roy> In-reply-to: <001c01c22cc4$0d1b4ba0$0100000a@roy> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 S Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: In message <001c01c22cc4$0d1b4ba0$0100000a@roy>, HighGain writes >Hello LF'ers, >And you will still not be ( Or ever will be ) as potentialy efficient as >MM0ALM Dave Nr Stonehaven ever was! If you have to use the aid of Commercial >Masts, Tower Blocks, Computer DATA, Remote Links and Repeater Networks or >Gateways... THEN WHY BOTHER AT ALL? It's one big farse and you lot are not >impressing anybody one iota. Don't be so sour. It's an interesting experiment. Good luck to them. Mike > >Regards & Best Wishes >Roy >GM0PYC > > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Walter >To: rsgb >Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 2124 ROY >Subject: LF: Activity from DLFs 360m mast > > >Hello to all LF`ers, >on Wednesday, 24th of July, the 153KHz transmitter of Deutschlandfunk in >Donebach (JN49ON, 50Km SSE of Frankfurt) will be off air due to scheduled >maintenance. By the friendly cooperation of the site personnel and with >consent of the regulation authorities, a small group of German LF amateurs >has been granted access to one of the 360m masts between 7:00 and 15:00UTC. >With a little luck we might be able to achieve about 30dB more radiation >efficiency than at home. > We will probably need some time to work out the impedance matching. >After that, we intend to operate preferably in CW and Slow-CW modes. As we >expect a rather high noisefloor from the Frankfurt area, we will bring along >a tuned loop for receiving, and we will be QRV on 7030KHz in CW as well. If >nothing else works, please give us a phone call on+49 174 3692499, or send >an email note via the reflector or to dj2lf@darc.de or markusvester@aol.com. > Let`s look forward to a successfull day, hopefully without >thunderstorms or strong noise. >73 >The group: Markus - DF6NM, Walter - DJ2LF, Ralph - DL2NDO, Ralph - DK3GH, >Roland - DL3NDR, Franz - DL5NER > > -- M.J.Powell From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9349 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 21:22:05 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 21:22:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 13851 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 21:21:07 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 21:21:07 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UZew-0002Wt-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 22:15:02 +0100 Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au ([203.26.10.16]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UZeu-0002Wn-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 22:15:01 +0100 Received: from steve (ppp252.dyn154.pacific.net.au [210.23.154.252]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA22633 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:14:56 +1000 Message-ID: <002e01c22d0e$66ddd000$fc9a17d2@steve> From: "Steve Olney" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> <001c01c22cc4$0d1b4ba0$0100000a@roy> Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?LF:_Re:_Re:_Activity_from_DLF=B4s_360m_mast?= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:18:53 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > > ... THEN WHY BOTHER AT ALL? It's one big farse and you lot.... > Farse ? What is "farse" ? Is that short for fat bottom ? In which case - are you speaking autobiographically ? :-) Of course if you mean "farce" then that is a different matter entirely. Bets Whishers Steve VK2ZTO From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10880 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 21:05:24 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 21:05:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 9648 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 21:04:40 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 21:04:40 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UZMV-0002SG-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 21:55:59 +0100 Received: from grunt5.ihug.co.nz ([203.109.254.45]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UZMT-0002SB-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 21:55:58 +0100 Received: from p156-tnt1.chc.ihug.co.nz (athlon) [203.173.227.156] by grunt5.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17UZMN-00022a-00; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:55:51 +1200 Message-ID: <026601c22d0b$3c792e20$0101a8c0@athlon> From: "Dave Brown" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: LF activity from commercial 360m mast Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:56:19 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Walter etc-- As one who has done this a couple of times down here in ZL - it generates a lot of interest/activity and is definitely FUN. Forget the borax tossers- go for it! Matching should not be too hard if you can get the existing loading temporarily disconnected from either the mast, and do it all yourselves, or from the tx end , and make use of it , by adding a bit more inductance. And do be aware of the comments re high noise levels from the mast on rx,-- they can be very high-specially if there are any electric fences running anywhere within several miles of the place!!! A separate rx antenna is definitely a good idea- if only as a backup. 73 Dave, ZL3FJ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3691 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 21:05:11 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 21:05:11 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 9148 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 21:04:07 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 21:04:07 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UZKp-0002S9-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 21:54:15 +0100 Received: from imo-d08.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.40]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UZKo-0002S4-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 21:54:15 +0100 Received: from G0MRF@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.4e.e6ec6b7 (3858) for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:54:05 -0400 (EDT) From: G0MRF@aol.com Message-ID: <4e.e6ec6b7.2a65e1ec@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:54:04 EDT Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_LF:_Re:_Activity_from_DLF=B4s_360m_mast?= To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows UK sub 10512 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit In a message dated 7/16/02 1:31:56 PM GMT Daylight Time, dx.dx@virgin.net writes:



Hello LF'ers,
And you will still not be ( Or ever will be ) as potentialy efficient as
MM0ALM Dave Nr Stonehaven ever was! If you have to use the aid of Commercial
Masts, Tower Blocks, Computer DATA, Remote Links and Repeater Networks or
Gateways... THEN WHY BOTHER AT ALL? It's one big farse and you lot are not
impressing anybody one iota.



e-mail rage? From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7640 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 16:34:50 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 16:34:50 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 6106 invoked by uid 10001); 16 Jul 2002 16:38:46 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 16:38:45 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UVDu-00020z-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 17:30:50 +0100 Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr ([195.170.0.5]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UVDt-00020u-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 17:30:49 +0100 Received: from otenet.gr (myti530-a105.otenet.gr [212.205.251.233]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g6GGUG20009010 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 19:30:47 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <3D344924.1794B335@otenet.gr> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 17:26:13 +0100 From: "Alex Deligiannis" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re: Activity from DLF?s 360m mast References: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> <5.1.0.14.0.20020716150706.00b88cf8@pb623250.kuleuven.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I agree with Rik it's a great opportunity to make some measurements with a real aerial... I'll try to take a day off from my QRL I don't want to mist the event. Please let me know the QRG... 73's ALEX SV8QG KM39GC Rik Strobbe wrote: > I don't think it is a matter of impressing someone but just of taking a > chance to experiment, and isn't this what LF is all about ? > Nobody is obliged to participate and the activity is very restricted in > time, so apart from one or two "wounded ego's" no harm will be done. > Good luck to Walter and his gang ... > > 73, Rik ON7YD > > PS : Keeping in mind the RX problems at "big antenna" sites that occured in > the past it might be useful to have a RX site at some distance (1..2 km) > > At 13:26 16/07/2002 +0100, you wrote: > >Hello LF'ers, > >And you will still not be ( Or ever will be ) as potentialy efficient as > >MM0ALM Dave Nr Stonehaven ever was! If you have to use the aid of Commercial > >Masts, Tower Blocks, Computer DATA, Remote Links and Repeater Networks or > >Gateways... THEN WHY BOTHER AT ALL? It's one big farse and you lot are not > >impressing anybody one iota. > > > >Regards & Best Wishes > >Roy > >GM0PYC From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7976 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 16:17:02 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 16:17:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 20085 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 16:16:17 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 16:16:17 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UUvM-0001yB-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 17:11:40 +0100 Received: from irwell.zetnet.co.uk ([194.247.47.48] helo=zetnet.co.uk ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UUvL-0001y6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 17:11:39 +0100 Received: from a7j7r2 (man-c049.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.42.49]) by zetnet.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g6GGBZt24686 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 17:11:36 +0100 Message-ID: <000001c22ce2$d7920fe0$312af7c2@a7j7r2> From: "John Rabson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> <001c01c22cc4$0d1b4ba0$0100000a@roy> Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?LF:_Re:_Re:_Activity_from_DLF=C2=B4s_360m_mast?= Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 17:06:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ---- Original Message ----- From: "HighGain" > Gateways... THEN WHY BOTHER AT ALL? It's FUN! 73, John Rabson de G3PAI From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28026 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 16:01:46 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 16:01:46 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 6516 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 16:01:03 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 16:01:02 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UUh9-0001u3-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:56:59 +0100 Received: from imo-d07.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.39]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UUh8-0001ty-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:56:58 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.1a3.54e1962 (3850) for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:56:18 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <1a3.54e1962.2a659c22@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:56:18 EDT Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?LF:_Activity_from_DLF=B4s_360m_mast?= To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows XP DE sub 50 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hi Walter, Markus and Group,

ufb, already looking forward to the event.
Will try to connect a small light bulb to the long wire, tuned to your frequency; hope you get it to glow ;-))

73, Wolf  DL4YHF
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13479 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 15:08:25 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 15:08:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 1059 invoked by uid 10001); 16 Jul 2002 15:12:21 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 15:12:21 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UTjg-0001mC-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:55:32 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UTjf-0001m7-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:55:31 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17UTje-0005ra-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:55:30 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17UTje-0003v4-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:55:30 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020716152301.00ab7798@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:55:27 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: LF: Re: Activity from Deutschlandfunk Antenna In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020716150706.00b88cf8@pb623250.kuleuven.be> References: <001c01c22cc4$0d1b4ba0$0100000a@roy> <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Walter, LF Group, Best of luck with the expedition next Wednesday - I will certainly try to be QRV at least for a short time that day. Will you be restricted to 1W ERP still, or do you have an arrangement for QRO operation? As well as the comments about receiving difficulties, also bear in mind the problems someone, I think it was Rich, OM2TW , had operating from a similar site some time ago, with very high levels of signals picked up from nearby broadcast stations making it impossible to tune up the antenna. heers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6206 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 13:26:15 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 13:26:15 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 12487 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 13:25:29 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 13:25:29 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17USEK-0001bI-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 14:19:04 +0100 Received: from mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.50]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17USEJ-0001bD-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 14:19:03 +0100 Received: from dell-rik.fys.kuleuven.ac.be ([10.33.165.177]) by mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g6GDIW2H153170 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:18:32 +0200 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020716150706.00b88cf8@pb623250.kuleuven.be> X-Sender: pb623250@pb623250.kuleuven.be X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:21:56 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_LF:_Re:_Activity_from_DLF=C2=B4s_360m_mast?= In-reply-to: <001c01c22cc4$0d1b4ba0$0100000a@roy> References: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I don't think it is a matter of impressing someone but just of taking a chance to experiment, and isn't this what LF is all about ? Nobody is obliged to participate and the activity is very restricted in time, so apart from one or two "wounded ego's" no harm will be done. Good luck to Walter and his gang ... 73, Rik ON7YD PS : Keeping in mind the RX problems at "big antenna" sites that occured in the past it might be useful to have a RX site at some distance (1..2 km) At 13:26 16/07/2002 +0100, you wrote: >Hello LF'ers, >And you will still not be ( Or ever will be ) as potentialy efficient as >MM0ALM Dave Nr Stonehaven ever was! If you have to use the aid of Commercial >Masts, Tower Blocks, Computer DATA, Remote Links and Repeater Networks or >Gateways... THEN WHY BOTHER AT ALL? It's one big farse and you lot are not >impressing anybody one iota. > >Regards & Best Wishes >Roy >GM0PYC From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26783 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 12:46:52 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 12:46:52 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 8319 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 12:46:08 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 12:46:08 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17URfh-0001W5-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:43:17 +0100 Received: from mailout04.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.18]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17URfg-0001W0-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:43:17 +0100 Received: from fwd11.sul.t-online.de by mailout04.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17URfR-0001dk-02; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 14:43:01 +0200 Received: from 217.2.66.96 (087321565-0001@[217.2.66.96]) by fwd11.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17URf9-0V2sLoC; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 14:42:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_LF:_Re:_Activity_from_DLF=C2=B4s_360m_mast?= From: "Hans-Joachim Brandt" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 4.104 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: 16 Jul 2002 12:41 GMT Message-ID: <17URf9-0V2sLoC@fwd11.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 087321565-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: To the DL LF group concerning Donebach: Don't be discouraged! Why we should not experience such an event, such an opportunity? 73 Ha-Jo, DJ1ZB "HighGain" schrieb: >Hello LF'ers, >And you will still not be ( Or ever will be ) as potentialy efficient as >MM0ALM Dave Nr Stonehaven ever was! If you have to use the aid of Commercial >Masts, Tower Blocks, Computer DATA, Remote Links and Repeater Networks or >Gateways... THEN WHY BOTHER AT ALL? It's one big farse and you lot are not >impressing anybody one iota. > >Regards & Best Wishes >Roy >GM0PYC > > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Walter >To: rsgb >Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 2124 ROY >Subject: LF: Activity from DLF´s 360m mast > > >Hello to all LF`ers, >on Wednesday, 24th of July, the 153KHz transmitter of Deutschlandfunk in >Donebach (JN49ON, 50Km SSE of Frankfurt) will be off air due to scheduled >maintenance. By the friendly cooperation of the site personnel and with >consent of the regulation authorities, a small group of German LF amateurs >has been granted access to one of the 360m masts between 7:00 and 15:00UTC. >With a little luck we might be able to achieve about 30dB more radiation >efficiency than at home. > We will probably need some time to work out the impedance matching. >After that, we intend to operate preferably in CW and Slow-CW modes. As we >expect a rather high noisefloor from the Frankfurt area, we will bring along >a tuned loop for receiving, and we will be QRV on 7030KHz in CW as well. If >nothing else works, please give us a phone call on+49 174 3692499, or send >an email note via the reflector or to dj2lf@darc.de or markusvester@aol.com. > Let`s look forward to a successfull day, hopefully without >thunderstorms or strong noise. >73 >The group: Markus - DF6NM, Walter - DJ2LF, Ralph - DL2NDO, Ralph - DK3GH, >Roland - DL3NDR, Franz - DL5NER > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20691 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 12:33:25 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 12:33:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 10239 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 12:32:48 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 12:32:48 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17URPF-0001TF-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:26:17 +0100 Received: from mta7-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.47]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17URPE-0001TA-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:26:16 +0100 Received: from roy ([80.1.31.172]) by mta7-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020716122614.ZLTS302.mta7-svc.business.ntl.com@roy> for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:26:14 +0100 Message-ID: <001c01c22cc4$0d1b4ba0$0100000a@roy> From: "HighGain" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?LF:_Re:_Activity_from_DLF=C2=B4s_360m_mast?= Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:26:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello LF'ers, And you will still not be ( Or ever will be ) as potentialy efficient as MM0ALM Dave Nr Stonehaven ever was! If you have to use the aid of Commercial Masts, Tower Blocks, Computer DATA, Remote Links and Repeater Networks or Gateways... THEN WHY BOTHER AT ALL? It's one big farse and you lot are not impressing anybody one iota. Regards & Best Wishes Roy GM0PYC ----- Original Message ----- From: Walter To: rsgb Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 2124 ROY Subject: LF: Activity from DLF´s 360m mast Hello to all LF`ers, on Wednesday, 24th of July, the 153KHz transmitter of Deutschlandfunk in Donebach (JN49ON, 50Km SSE of Frankfurt) will be off air due to scheduled maintenance. By the friendly cooperation of the site personnel and with consent of the regulation authorities, a small group of German LF amateurs has been granted access to one of the 360m masts between 7:00 and 15:00UTC. With a little luck we might be able to achieve about 30dB more radiation efficiency than at home. We will probably need some time to work out the impedance matching. After that, we intend to operate preferably in CW and Slow-CW modes. As we expect a rather high noisefloor from the Frankfurt area, we will bring along a tuned loop for receiving, and we will be QRV on 7030KHz in CW as well. If nothing else works, please give us a phone call on+49 174 3692499, or send an email note via the reflector or to dj2lf@darc.de or markusvester@aol.com. Let`s look forward to a successfull day, hopefully without thunderstorms or strong noise. 73 The group: Markus - DF6NM, Walter - DJ2LF, Ralph - DL2NDO, Ralph - DK3GH, Roland - DL3NDR, Franz - DL5NER From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9749 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 10:16:37 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 10:16:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 2965 invoked by uid 10001); 16 Jul 2002 10:20:34 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 10:20:34 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UPCe-0001EC-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:05:08 +0100 Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.81]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UPCd-0001E7-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:05:08 +0100 Received: from host213-1-143-131.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.1.143.131] helo=main) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17UPCa-0004xI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:05:04 +0100 Message-ID: <000401c22cb0$295fb6c0$838f01d5@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: X-Class flare Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:02:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all the following 'paste' from spaceweather..... ----------------------------------- Space Weather News for July 16, 2002 http://www.spaceweather.com A remarkable sunspot is crossing the face of the Sun. The large active region stretches 15 Earth-diameters from end-to-end and poses a threat for powerful flares. Indeed, on July 15th, twisted magnetic fields above the spot erupted. The explosion sparked an X-class solar flare and hurled a coronal mass ejection into space. As a result, sky watchers on Earth might spot auroras on Tuesday or Wednesday night. Visit spaceweather.com for more information and updates. ------------------------------------- Look out for the possibility of enhanced daytime paths to Europe on the 21/22nd. I doubt whether the effect will be present on Saturday unless the CME is running very quickly. Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22516 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 10:00:39 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 10:00:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 2971 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 09:59:52 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 09:59:52 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UOzN-0001B5-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:51:25 +0100 Received: from moutvdomng1.kundenserver.de ([195.20.224.131]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UOzM-0001B0-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:51:24 +0100 Received: from [195.20.224.204] (helo=mrvdomng3.kundenserver.de) by moutvdomng1.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 17UOzK-0001ZP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:51:22 +0200 Received: from [62.157.35.116] (helo=diolog.de) by mrvdomng3.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 17UOzJ-0003SM-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:51:22 +0200 Message-ID: <000f01c22cac$9e99c5b0$0201a8c0@parentes> From: "fk" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?LF:_Re:_Activity_from_DLF=C2=B4s_360m_mast?= Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:39:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Great! I'll be looking for you, but before this I will build an extra ATT to preotect my receiver ;)
 
73, Fabian dj1yfk
----- Original Message -----
From: Walter
To: rsgb
Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 10:24 PM
Subject: LF: Activity from DLF´s 360m mast

Hello to all LF`ers,
on Wednesday, 24th of July, the 153KHz transmitter of Deutschlandfunk in Donebach (JN49ON, 50Km SSE of Frankfurt) will be off air due to scheduled maintenance. By the friendly cooperation of the site personnel and with consent of the regulation authorities, a small group of German LF amateurs has been granted access to one of the 360m masts between 7:00 and 15:00UTC. With a little luck we might be able to achieve about 30dB more radiation efficiency than at home.
     We will probably need some time to work out the impedance matching. After that, we intend to operate preferably in CW and Slow-CW modes. As we expect a rather high noisefloor from the Frankfurt area, we will bring along a tuned loop for receiving, and we will be QRV on 7030KHz in CW as well. If nothing else works, please give us a phone call on+49 174 3692499, or send an email note via the reflector or to dj2lf@darc.de or markusvester@aol.com.
     Let`s look forward to a successfull day, hopefully without thunderstorms or strong noise.
73
The group: Markus - DF6NM, Walter - DJ2LF, Ralph - DL2NDO, Ralph - DK3GH, Roland - DL3NDR, Franz - DL5NER
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18081 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2002 23:43:32 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 15 Jul 2002 23:43:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 28671 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2002 23:42:46 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 15 Jul 2002 23:42:46 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UFP0-0000Ar-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 00:37:14 +0100 Received: from out4.mx.nwbl.wi.voyager.net ([169.207.3.122]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UFOz-0000Am-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 00:37:13 +0100 Received: from mail6.mx.voyager.net (mail6.mx.voyager.net [216.93.66.205]) by out4.mx.nwbl.wi.voyager.net (8.12.3/8.11.4/1.7) with ESMTP id g6FNbA1Y021231 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:37:10 -0500 Received: from k6500 (d5.as3.mpls.mn.voyager.net [169.207.249.229] (may be forged)) by mail6.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id g6FNb8K08271 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 19:37:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "WE0H" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Ground loss/gain Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:37:33 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020715170020.02e95028@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This makes sense since the loopers around the US have found out that the loop current is highest during the dry days. When it rains, the current goes down. 73's, Mike>WE0H http://www.we0h.us/lf.html -----Original Message----- From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of James Moritz Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 11:31 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Ground loss/gain (was: polarization of small loops) Dear LF Group, The maths required to calculate the gain and Rrad of a loop over a ground plane looks much too difficult... so I cheated and used EZNEC instead to simulate a 10m square loop 1m above a ground plane - the gain is close to 4.77dBi ( ie. 3), instead of 1.77dBi for a loop in free space, so 3dB gain due to the ground plane, as one would intuitively expect. I also tried simulating it with "real" grounds, to find out what the effect would be on the radiation resistance. Unfortunately, it does not like doing this, giving an error message saying that the resistance is negative and the loop is too small. I increased the frequency to 1MHz, where the simulation ran OK. Comparing Rrad with perfect ground and free space gave a ratio of about 2:1 as expected. With "high accuracy" ground, either very low or very high ground conductivity gave lower loss resistance than intermediate values, which also seems reasonable - the loss reached a maximum somewhere around 100mS, so this suggests that, with actual grounds having lower conductivity than this, loops will work best with the lowest possible ground conductivity. However, one has to take all this with a pinch of salt because of the simulation errors produced if the frequency is reduced. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2782 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2002 20:16:45 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 15 Jul 2002 20:16:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 5499 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2002 20:16:00 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 15 Jul 2002 20:16:00 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UCAw-0008JO-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 21:10:30 +0100 Received: from hugo.fen-net.de ([212.204.115.10] ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17UCAu-0008JJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 21:10:29 +0100 Received: from DEFAULT (dialin-nbg-008.fen-net.de [212.204.116.8]) by hugo.fen-net.de (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g6FK8o8j024474 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 22:08:51 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <003001c22c3d$9fbd3680$5f74ccd4@DEFAULT> From: "Walter" To: "rsgb" Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?LF:_Activity_from_DLF=C2=B4s_360m_mast?= Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 22:24:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hello to all LF`ers,
on Wednesday, 24th of July, the 153KHz transmitter of Deutschlandfunk in Donebach (JN49ON, 50Km SSE of Frankfurt) will be off air due to scheduled maintenance. By the friendly cooperation of the site personnel and with consent of the regulation authorities, a small group of German LF amateurs has been granted access to one of the 360m masts between 7:00 and 15:00UTC. With a little luck we might be able to achieve about 30dB more radiation efficiency than at home.
     We will probably need some time to work out the impedance matching. After that, we intend to operate preferably in CW and Slow-CW modes. As we expect a rather high noisefloor from the Frankfurt area, we will bring along a tuned loop for receiving, and we will be QRV on 7030KHz in CW as well. If nothing else works, please give us a phone call on+49 174 3692499, or send an email note via the reflector or to dj2lf@darc.de or markusvester@aol.com.
     Let`s look forward to a successfull day, hopefully without thunderstorms or strong noise.
73
The group: Markus - DF6NM, Walter - DJ2LF, Ralph - DL2NDO, Ralph - DK3GH, Roland - DL3NDR, Franz - DL5NER
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14452 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2002 16:40:52 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 15 Jul 2002 16:40:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 9719 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2002 16:39:57 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 15 Jul 2002 16:39:57 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17U8mZ-0007sF-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:33:07 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17U8mY-0007sA-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:33:06 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17U8mX-0003bp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:33:05 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17U8mW-0005Kq-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:33:04 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020715170020.02e95028@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:31:28 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: Ground loss/gain (was: polarization of small loops) In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020712173901.00bc7df8@pb623250.kuleuven.be> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF Group, The maths required to calculate the gain and Rrad of a loop over a ground plane looks much too difficult... so I cheated and used EZNEC instead to simulate a 10m square loop 1m above a ground plane - the gain is close to 4.77dBi ( ie. 3), instead of 1.77dBi for a loop in free space, so 3dB gain due to the ground plane, as one would intuitively expect. I also tried simulating it with "real" grounds, to find out what the effect would be on the radiation resistance. Unfortunately, it does not like doing this, giving an error message saying that the resistance is negative and the loop is too small. I increased the frequency to 1MHz, where the simulation ran OK. Comparing Rrad with perfect ground and free space gave a ratio of about 2:1 as expected. With "high accuracy" ground, either very low or very high ground conductivity gave lower loss resistance than intermediate values, which also seems reasonable - the loss reached a maximum somewhere around 100mS, so this suggests that, with actual grounds having lower conductivity than this, loops will work best with the lowest possible ground conductivity. However, one has to take all this with a pinch of salt because of the simulation errors produced if the frequency is reduced. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8551 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2002 20:55:07 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 14 Jul 2002 20:55:07 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 2708 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2002 20:54:29 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 14 Jul 2002 20:54:29 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17TqDh-0005qw-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:43:53 +0100 Received: from mailgate4.cinetic.de ([217.72.192.167]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17TqDg-0005qq-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:43:53 +0100 Received: from web.de (fmomail01.dlan.cinetic.de [172.20.1.45]) by mailgate4.cinetic.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.0-0.4) with SMTP id g6EKhKW22304; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 22:43:20 +0200 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 22:43:20 +0200 Message-ID: <200207142043.g6EKhKW22304@mailgate4.cinetic.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Organization: http://freemail.web.de/ From: "Hans-Albrecht Haffa" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Cc: HaffaHA@t-online.de, paul.arndt@stama.de Subject: LF: Activity Day 21.22. September 2002 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hans-Albrecht Haffa (cba book 2002 and earlier) DK 8 ND email: HaffaHA@t-online.de Göppingen, 14th of July 2002 Dear OMs, over the weekend 21st/ 22nd September 2002 our club chapter "Hohenstaufen" DOK P41 will have an activity Day on 136 kHz. Mode A1A, aural cw. We will use our club-call DK 0 UH and operators calls. Locator JN48UQ or nearby (South Germany, nr. Stuttgart). We will use the stations buildt by DK 8 ND and DK 7 SU. All LOWFER-Operators are kindly asked to be active on this weekend on saturday afternoon and sunnday morning. Please note: This is an announcement. We will repeat it in the next weeks on this reflector, as date is approaching enhanced by additional details. Greetings to all of You 55, Hans-Albrecht DK 8 ND ______________________________________________________________________________ All inclusive! 100 MB Speicher, SMS 50% gunstiger, 32 MB Attachment-Gro?e, Preisvorteile und mehr unter http://club.web.de/?mc=021104 From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1193 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2002 16:35:16 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 13 Jul 2002 16:35:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 27283 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2002 16:34:24 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 13 Jul 2002 16:34:24 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17TPkY-0003L7-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 17:28:02 +0100 Received: from mailout01.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.80]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17TPkX-0003L2-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 17:28:01 +0100 Received: from fwd06.sul.t-online.de by mailout01.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17TPkU-0001LO-04; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 18:27:58 +0200 Received: from (0482183881-0001@[62.155.252.170]) by fwd06.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17TPkC-2IagN6C; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 18:27:40 +0200 From: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <01C227EF.24643850.g4jnt@thersgb.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020710141708.00ba0208@pb623250.kuleuven.be> Subject: Re: LF: polarization of small loops X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 18:27:40 +0200 Message-ID: <17TPkC-2IagN6C@fwd06.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0482183881-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Rik Strobbe schrieb: > Dear LF group, > > I have been looking for some information about the polarization of small > loops, but no success. > > For full-size loops things are quite clear, a loop can be polarized > horizontal or vertical depending on the feeding point. > > What about small loops ? > I found several descriptions of small transmitting loops close to ground > and there loops were fed at different places (center horizontal side, at > the edges). Polarization seems to be vertical in all cases. > And what about a small loop is free space ? Current distribution is uniform > over the entire loop, regardless of the feeding point. So one would expect > always the same polarization (but which one ?). Unless also the voltage > distribution plays a role. > > Anyone who can point me to the right theory and/or has experience with > feeding small loops at different points ? > > Thanks in advance, > > Rik ON7YD > > Hi Rik es all, the following may confuse the loop scene still more: I have a loop 70m long, 12m high and 2m above ground with two windings, fed at the lower E (east) edge. some weeks ago I made a field strength test L-aerial (17m mast and 340m longwire 17m to 9m up) contra loop. Geri/DK8KW measured the strength using his MV62. the loop is erected N/E. DK8KW is located S from here. result: no difference btwn the aerials as Geri reported (both 20uV/m). so can one say the (my) loop polarizes vertical (non directional) if used as TX-aerial? vv. used as RX-antennas loop to L-antenna was -63dBu to -50dBu (indicated by a RYCOM-rx) receiving DK8KW. receiving Reino/OH1TN (nearly E) RYCOM indicates no difference btwn the two antennas. but Reino does not hear me if I do use the loop as TX-aerial. with the L-aerial conn to the TX Reino gives me regular RST 569. in abt three weeks I will go to the bottom of it. I will perform tests in QRSS mode during afternoons on 136.0kHz for the purpose of field strength measurements. distance to the aerials: on average seven km (3xlambda). transmitter power output will be 20 Watt, 130 Watt and 800 Watt. Aerials: inv. L-aerial and TX-LOOP. the test will last several weeks. I cant make any schedule. is the qrg ok? any protests from the bandplaners? btw. Rik, in ur fine prgr QRS I do miss the possibility keying a continuous dash among the text. regards dj8wx/Uwe regards Uwe/dj8wx From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16749 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2002 11:45:58 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 13 Jul 2002 11:45:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 6127 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2002 11:44:59 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 13 Jul 2002 11:44:58 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17TL7k-0002ml-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 12:31:40 +0100 Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.93]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17TL7j-0002mG-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 12:31:39 +0100 Received: from host213-122-226-67.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.226.67] helo=main) by rhenium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17TL44-0000Dm-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 12:27:53 +0100 Message-ID: <001901c22a60$4506dd60$43e27ad5@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: T & F User Club Newsleter Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 12:26:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All, I will be posting a copy of the the DoTI sponsored Time & Frequency User Club Newletter to my web site later today. It is free for dissemination as they are searching for (UK) members, but it makes interesting reading to anyone interested in GPS or the project Euro version, for time measurement. It is in PDF format for download and is about 1Mbyte Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17041 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2002 16:01:48 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 16:01:48 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 10137 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2002 16:01:01 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 16:01:00 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17T2kN-0000ID-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:54:19 +0100 Received: from mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.50]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17T2kM-0000Hq-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:54:18 +0100 Received: from dell-rik.fys.kuleuven.ac.be ([10.33.165.177]) by mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g6CFrkJA172232 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:53:46 +0200 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020712173901.00bc7df8@pb623250.kuleuven.be> X-Sender: pb623250@pb623250.kuleuven.be X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:57:06 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: Re: LF: Ground loss/gain (was: polarization of small loops) In-reply-to: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello Claudio and LF group, I think that the "ground gain" and the "ground losses" depends on two different >phenomena. Ground gain should come from reflections from ground at a >distant point >(far field) from the source combining with the direct ray from the same >source with >the proper phase. The type of antenna used shouldn't matter since it will >be seen >as a point source at a large distance; of course the polarization w.r.t. >ground >will be important. The term "ground gain" was not a good choice for what I meant. I agree that ground reflection at a distant point can give up to 6dB additional gain ("ground gain" ?) and if this reflection occurs in the far field it will not affect the antenna (impedance etc...). But what I was reffering to is the effect caused by the ground creating a "mirror image" of the antenna. If the antenna is close to ground (as any antenna is at 136kHz) this "mirroring" is in the near field (where any losses, reflections etc.. will affect the antenna) and can double the radiation resistance. But at the same time any lossy object in the near field will increase the antenna losses. >The ground losses depend on the presence of dissipative materials near the >antenna >(near field); for a small electric dipole the electric field near the antenna >should be more intense than for a small magnetic loop. On the other hand, the >magnetic field near a loop antenna should be higher than for an dipole. At a >distance (far field) there is no difference between the two (for the same >radiated >power, of course). So probably for a monopole it is important to have a >dielectric >with low losses (and ground usually is not), while for a loop a lossy >dielectric >near the antenna has less effect, due to the weaker electric field. But I >have no >idea how lossy is the ground as a magnetic material... I agree that the groundloss for an "electrical" antenna depend on the diëlectric properties of the ground while for a "magnetical" antenna it will depend on the permeability properties. So these losses can be different for a short vertical monopole (electrical) and a small loop (magnetical). But at the same time the "mirroring" of the ground can be different for these 2 types of antennas (so ground could be a good mirror for a monopole and a poor mirror for a loop - or vice versa). My intuition would say that groundloss and ground "mirroring" go together, so a loop might suffer less from groundloss but at the same time it will not benefit from the "mirroring" (based on the principle that "there is no such thing as a free meal") 73, Rik ON7YD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28021 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2002 15:13:33 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 15:13:33 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 4936 invoked by uid 10001); 12 Jul 2002 15:17:16 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 15:17:16 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17T20V-00008f-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:06:55 +0100 Received: from tlvsca.vim.tlt.alcatel.it ([194.243.74.245]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17T20U-00008R-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:06:54 +0100 Received: from tlvk7v (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tlvsca.vim.tlt.alcatel.it (8.12.5/8.12.5) with SMTP id g6CF3K5N003070 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:03:21 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:36:12 +0100 From: "Claudio Girardi" Subject: LF: Ground loss/gain (was: polarization of small loops) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Mailer: Z-Mail Pro 6.2, NetManage Inc. [ZM62_16H] X-Priority: 3 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello all, I think that the "ground gain" and the "ground losses" depends on two different phenomena. Ground gain should come from reflections from ground at a distant point (far field) from the source combining with the direct ray from the same source with the proper phase. The type of antenna used shouldn't matter since it will be seen as a point source at a large distance; of course the polarization w.r.t. ground will be important. The ground losses depend on the presence of dissipative materials near the antenna (near field); for a small electric dipole the electric field near the antenna should be more intense than for a small magnetic loop. On the other hand, the magnetic field near a loop antenna should be higher than for an dipole. At a distance (far field) there is no difference between the two (for the same radiated power, of course). So probably for a monopole it is important to have a dielectric with low losses (and ground usually is not), while for a loop a lossy dielectric near the antenna has less effect, due to the weaker electric field. But I have no idea how lossy is the ground as a magnetic material... 73 de Claudio, IN3OTD Rik wrote: >And to make things more complex, what about a loop close to a >not-so-perfect ground plane ? >Either the loop is not (or little affected) by the ground. That means >little or no groundloss (as is claimed by some) but at the same time it >would mean that the loop will also not benefit from any "ground gain". >On the other hand, if the loop benifits form significantly from >"groundgain" then I would expect that the loop would also suffer from the >groundlosses, as a vertical monopole does. > >Any clues ? From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3062 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2002 11:30:23 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 11:30:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 22165 invoked by uid 10001); 12 Jul 2002 11:34:16 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 11:34:16 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SyFN-0008Ak-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:06:01 +0100 Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.93]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SyFM-0008Af-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:06:00 +0100 Received: from host213-1-201-169.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.1.201.169] helo=main) by rhenium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17SyFG-0001eK-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:05:55 +0100 Message-ID: <000101c22994$0b17c140$a9c901d5@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: Odd messaqges...final Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:26:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, thanks for all the comments, I think comments I think Dave G3YMC explained it in a personal e-mail as Klez from someone who had an "undelivered mail" report in his 'Inbox' (This one doesn't use the Address Book ). This was supported by the fact that I got the 'real' message from that source about 4 hours later. I do have McAfee ...up-to-date....and do take all the suggested (by memberof this Group) precautions. I look clean......but if you know different please yell ! The suspect attachment was 39K so it wouldnt go through the reflector. It may be time to archive the inbox again!! Thinks.......if I an infected there will be a hell of a lot of messages going to Korea !! See (some of) you at Crawley Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21807 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2002 09:59:29 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 09:59:29 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 23722 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2002 09:58:37 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 09:58:37 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Sx8w-0007si-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:55:18 +0100 Received: from mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.50]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Sx8v-0007s6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:55:17 +0100 Received: from dell-rik.fys.kuleuven.ac.be ([10.33.165.177]) by mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g6C9skJA096952 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:54:46 +0200 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020712114012.00bbae30@pb623250.kuleuven.be> X-Sender: pb623250@pb623250.kuleuven.be X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:58:05 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: Re: LF: polarization of small loops In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020711180215.00abbba8@gemini.herts.ac.uk> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710141708.00ba0208@pb623250.kuleuven.be> <5.1.0.14.0.20020710113519.00a82c30@gemini.herts.ac.uk> <01C227EF.24643850.g4jnt@thersgb.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Jim, LF group, >In the far field, the E field vector of a small loop is always parallel to >the plane of the loop and at right angles to the direction of propagation >- so an observer standing on the ground the E-field is always vertical for >a vertical loop, irrespective of where the loop is being fed. The >assumption made for a small loop is that the current is constant >throughout the loop, and since it is the current that is responsible for >the production of the radiated waves, it makes no difference if the loop >is rotated around its axis, which is effectively the same thing as >changing the feed point. OK, that makes sense. I received a similar explanation from Claudio Gerardi (IN3OTD), thanks to both. >If there is no ground plane, ie. in free space there is no meaningful way >of distinguishing horizontal and vertical, so one just talks of "linear" >polarization, with an angle relative to some convenient set of coordinates >- bur the E field will still always be at right angles to the direction of >propagation and parallel to the plane of the loop. I agree on the relativity of horizontal/vertical in free space. But since the polarization of a small loop is parallel to the plane of the loop one could state that when the loop is assumed to be vertical (wherever the loop is) polarization will also be vertical. >BTW, does anybody know what the directive gain of a small, vertical loop >above a ground plane is? The text books always talk about loops in free >space - for a loop in free space it is 1.5, same as for an infinitesimal >dipole. But I would imagine that when very close to an ideal ground plane >the directive gain would increase by 3dB to 3, by analogy with a short >monopole over a ground plane. This would also increase the radiation >resistance of the loop by a factor of 2, as in the case of a monopole >versus a free-space dipole of the same length. These factors would make a >significant difference in the calculation of the relative efficiency of >loop vs, vertical TX antennas. That would have been my next question ... And to make things more complex, what about a loop close to a not-so-perfect ground plane ? Either the loop is not (or little affected) by the ground. That means little or no groundloss (as is claimed by some) but at the same time it would mean that the loop will also not benefit from any "ground gain". On the other hand, if the loop benifits form significantly from "groundgain" then I would expect that the loop would also suffer from the groundlosses, as a vertical monopole does. Any clues ? 73, Rik ON7YD PS : A Dutch proverb says "One fool can ask more questions than a hundred wise men can answer" From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27053 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2002 09:55:40 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 09:55:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 20043 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2002 09:54:58 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: High Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 09:54:58 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Sx5A-0007qv-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:51:24 +0100 Received: from smtp-1.visp.telinco.net ([212.1.130.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Sx59-0007qq-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:51:23 +0100 Received: from [212.1.152.32] (helo=standalone) by smtp-1.visp.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.32 #1) id 17Sx2h-0007aV-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:48:52 +0100 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:50:29 +0100 Message-ID: <01C22991.F02D1BC0.g4jnt@thersgb.net> From: "Andy talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: More suspicious messages Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:50:27 +0100 Importance: high X-Priority: 1 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I've had one or two of these recently, often from unknown sources. I have always assumed it was caused by an incorrect HTML conversion setting, and deleted them without thinking any more. If the mesage was important and genuine the sender can always try again using plain text. Some people have taken to automatically deleteing HTML EMail on receipt. Andy G4JNT -----Original Message----- From: Alan Melia [SMTP:Alan.Melia@btinternet.com] Sent: 2002/07/11 20:44 To: LF-Group Subject: LF: More suspicious messages Hi all, I have just had a new one to me. I received an undelivered mail message, purporting to come from the "Mail Delivery System". Using techniques learned from Dave G3YMC, this look very suspicious it does not contain a message body relating to anything I have sent at any time. There inadequate information to identify the message so there is a tempation to open the attachment. The attachment looks very 'dodgy' being a 40k block of hex, which is disguised to be a WAV file but has one of those suspicious double extensions (i.e magazine.dat.bat ) I was fooled into opening the attachment originally and it crashed Outlook Express. I have since scanned with McAfee and it indicates I am not infected. This may be an innocent error, but I cynically suspect it is an attempt to get the user to open an extension and activate questionable code. If anyone knows different...please shoot me down, but in the meantime be carefull about supposedly "Undelivered Mail" messages. Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7801 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2002 09:26:45 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 09:26:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 19524 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2002 09:26:02 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 09:26:02 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SwZz-0007jp-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:19:11 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SwZy-0007jk-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:19:10 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17SwZx-0001mD-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:19:09 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SwZX-00030u-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:18:43 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020711180215.00abbba8@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:26:04 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: polarization of small loops In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710141708.00ba0208@pb623250.kuleuven.be> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710113519.00a82c30@gemini.herts.ac.uk> <01C227EF.24643850.g4jnt@thersgb.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Rik, LF group, At 14:36 10/07/2002 +0200, you wrote: >What about small loops ? >I found several descriptions of small transmitting loops close to ground >and there loops were fed at different places (center horizontal side, at >the edges). Polarization seems to be vertical in all cases. >And what about a small loop is free space ? Current distribution is >uniform over the entire loop, regardless of the feeding point. So one >would expect always the same polarization (but which one ?). Unless also >the voltage distribution plays a role. In the far field, the E field vector of a small loop is always parallel to the plane of the loop and at right angles to the direction of propagation - so an observer standing on the ground the E-field is always vertical for a vertical loop, irrespective of where the loop is being fed. The assumption made for a small loop is that the current is constant throughout the loop, and since it is the current that is responsible for the production of the radiated waves, it makes no difference if the loop is rotated around its axis, which is effectively the same thing as changing the feed point. If there is no ground plane, ie. in free space there is no meaningful way of distinguishing horizontal and vertical, so one just talks of "linear" polarization, with an angle relative to some convenient set of coordinates - bur the E field will still always be at right angles to the direction of propagation and parallel to the plane of the loop. BTW, does anybody know what the directive gain of a small, vertical loop above a ground plane is? The text books always talk about loops in free space - for a loop in free space it is 1.5, same as for an infinitesimal dipole. But I would imagine that when very close to an ideal ground plane the directive gain would increase by 3dB to 3, by analogy with a short monopole over a ground plane. This would also increase the radiation resistance of the loop by a factor of 2, as in the case of a monopole versus a free-space dipole of the same length. These factors would make a significant difference in the calculation of the relative efficiency of loop vs, vertical TX antennas. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12910 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2002 07:59:35 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 07:59:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 29562 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2002 07:58:43 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: High Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 07:58:43 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SvGt-0007X2-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:55:23 +0100 Received: from smtp-1.visp.telinco.net ([212.1.130.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SvGs-0007Wx-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:55:23 +0100 Received: from [212.1.154.245] (helo=standalone) by smtp-1.visp.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.32 #1) id 17SvER-0001po-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:52:52 +0100 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:54:31 +0100 Message-ID: <01C22981.BCD4AE10.g4jnt@thersgb.net> From: "Andy talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: WWVB Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:54:25 +0100 Importance: high X-Priority: 1 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: If WWVB is 2800km from us, then the signal takes 9ms to get here. Assuming the shape of the pulses is the same as for MSF ie a carrier break for 100 - 300ms timed to start exactly at the UTC second , then there will be a period from UTC +0 to UTC + 9ms when it ought to be possible to receive WWVB during the MSF off period. By gating out the received signal and coherently averaging, we can now have .009 / 1s worth of WWVB data, ie a signal strength 20dB below what would otherwise be possible. With GPS based timing, deriving this gating period is trivial, but even witout GPS, MSF can probably be used itself to generate the timing I'm not proposing to do this, just throwing an idea into the ring ;-) but know how you like to take on challenges Jim. Andy G4JNT In the UK we have MSF, also on 60kHz, which is a big signal here (several millivolts/metre) - so I am unlikely to ever hear WWVB at my QTH! RX antennas are a variety of tuned wires and loops, usually whatever is giving the lowest level of mains-bourne noise at that particular frequency and time. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22882 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2002 06:32:29 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 06:32:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 537 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2002 06:31:37 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 06:31:37 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Sttc-0007OA-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 07:27:16 +0100 Received: from mta203-rme.xtra.co.nz ([210.86.15.146]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Stta-0007O5-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 07:27:15 +0100 Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz ([210.86.15.143]) by mta203-rme.xtra.co.nz with ESMTP id <20020712062641.WGLV2471.mta203-rme.xtra.co.nz@mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz> for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:26:41 +1200 Received: from mcalevey ([210.54.65.49]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20020712062640.UNCJ2382.mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz@mcalevey> for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:26:40 +1200 Message-ID: <001501c2296d$11141ca0$314136d2@mcalevey> From: "mcalevey" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <1be.70b33fe.2a5e20af@cs.com> Subject: LF: Re: WWVB Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:25:59 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Ray WWVB is consistent night-time copy in ZL with almost any antenna. We also hear JJY on the same frequency and on 40 kHz. mike ZL4OL From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12084 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2002 04:38:26 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 04:38:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 246 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2002 04:37:40 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 04:37:40 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Ss8f-0007C4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 05:34:41 +0100 Received: from mail2.mx.voyager.net ([216.93.66.201]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Ss8e-0007Bz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 05:34:41 +0100 Received: from k6500 (d20.as3.mpls.mn.voyager.net [169.207.249.244] (may be forged)) by mail2.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id g6C4Ycl25451 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:34:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "WE0H" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: lost the location Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:35:01 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-reply-to: <20020711.223640.-456207.1.riese-k3djc@juno.com> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Bob, I sent the zip file to you direct. Mike>WE0H http://www.we0h.us/lf.html -----Original Message----- From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of BOB RIESE Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 9:37 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: lost the location Darn it Went to down load the inductance/capacitance resonance calculator that has just been improved and find I have lost the site could someone re state that location sorry Bob K3DJCS From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18513 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2002 02:48:07 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 02:48:07 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 29319 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2002 02:47:09 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 12 Jul 2002 02:47:09 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SqKz-0006wl-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 03:39:17 +0100 Received: from m11.boston.juno.com ([64.136.24.74]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SqKy-0006wf-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 03:39:16 +0100 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"yokUgcxCbtTP7XLrpefewD2RpkuhdhSoi7z8q48IoRMHg5Yh8Cn8YQ=="> Received: (from riese-k3djc@juno.com) by m11.boston.juno.com (jqueuemail) id G7GZYLYT; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 22:38:38 EDT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 22:36:40 -0400 Subject: LF: lost the location Message-ID: <20020711.223640.-456207.1.riese-k3djc@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "BOB RIESE" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Darn it Went to down load the inductance/capacitance resonance calculator that has just been improved and find I have lost the site could someone re state that location sorry Bob K3DJCS From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24845 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2002 20:09:18 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jul 2002 20:09:18 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 17299 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2002 20:08:37 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jul 2002 20:08:37 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SkCG-0006B5-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:05:52 +0100 Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.38]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SkCF-0006Aq-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:05:51 +0100 Received: from RaySoifer@cs.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.19b.511e9ab (3924) for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:05:08 -0400 (EDT) From: RaySoifer@cs.com Message-ID: <19b.511e9ab.2a5f3ef4@cs.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:05:08 EDT Subject: Re: LF: More suspicious messages To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 6.0 for Windows US sub 10511 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hi Alan,

Sounds like the W32.klez virus.  It hit me a couple of months ago.  If you haven't already done so, go to www.symantec.com and download the fix.

GL & 73,

Ray, W2RS From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11993 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2002 20:05:42 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jul 2002 20:05:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 14132 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2002 20:04:49 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jul 2002 20:04:49 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Sk7E-000697-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:00:40 +0100 Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.176]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Sk7D-000692-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:00:39 +0100 Received: from host62-7-44-161.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.7.44.161] helo=main) by protactinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17Sk7C-0000gc-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:00:38 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c22915$983bc0a0$a12c073e@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: More suspicious messages Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:44:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, I have just had a new one to me. I received an undelivered mail message, purporting to come from the "Mail Delivery System". Using techniques learned from Dave G3YMC, this look very suspicious it does not contain a message body relating to anything I have sent at any time. There inadequate information to identify the message so there is a tempation to open the attachment. The attachment looks very 'dodgy' being a 40k block of hex, which is disguised to be a WAV file but has one of those suspicious double extensions (i.e magazine.dat.bat ) I was fooled into opening the attachment originally and it crashed Outlook Express. I have since scanned with McAfee and it indicates I am not infected. This may be an innocent error, but I cynically suspect it is an attempt to get the user to open an extension and activate questionable code. If anyone knows different...please shoot me down, but in the meantime be carefull about supposedly "Undelivered Mail" messages. Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24213 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2002 19:04:06 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jul 2002 19:04:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 19330 invoked by uid 10001); 11 Jul 2002 19:08:00 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jul 2002 19:07:59 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SjAX-000629-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:00:01 +0100 Received: from carbon.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.92] helo=carbon) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SjAX-00061h-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:00:01 +0100 Received: from host213-122-226-242.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.226.242] helo=j1r9b7) by carbon with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17SjAV-0004Ko-00; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:59:59 +0100 Message-ID: <002401c2290c$8c701fe0$f2e27ad5@j1r9b7> From: "Derek Atter" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Cc: "Mike Guest" References: <200207090014_MC3-1-5A1-3D46@compuserve.com> <3D2B1435.FE635610@virgin.net> Subject: LF: Re: MB7LF - Remote 136Khz Receiver - Antenna fault Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:21:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: To UK users of the MB7LF remote LF receiver in the Crawley/Gatwick area : The large receiving loop forming part of the Loran canceller on the MB7LF system has recently suffered accidental damage so the relayed signals on 2metres currently have a large Loran background level until the loop can be fixed. From Derek Atter G3GRO From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6675 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2002 17:08:08 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jul 2002 17:08:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 21342 invoked by uid 10001); 11 Jul 2002 17:11:58 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jul 2002 17:11:58 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ShIQ-0005pC-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:00:02 +0100 Received: from ns1.tee.gr ([212.70.194.250]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ShIO-0005ok-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:00:01 +0100 Received: from s9o9f0.eexi.gr (ppp-ath06009.tee.gr [212.70.201.139]) by ns1.tee.gr (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g6BGxrCQ008995 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:59:55 +0300 Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020711195641.02d909c0@aurora.eexi.gr> X-Sender: sv1xv@aurora.eexi.gr X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:59:43 +0300 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Costas Krallis SV1XV" Subject: Re: LF: WWVB In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020711114341.00a82d38@gemini.herts.ac.uk> References: <1be.70b33fe.2a5e20af@cs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.14 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 12:04 11/7/2002 +0100, you wrote: > In the UK we have MSF, also on 60kHz, which is a big signal here > (several millivolts/metre) - so I am unlikely to ever hear WWVB > at my QTH! > > Cheers, Jim Moritz > 73 de M0BMU Even in Greece, MSF is very strong at nightime, S7 or more with a good antenna. I can even decode it with Radioclock. 73 Costas SV1XV From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12923 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2002 11:20:51 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jul 2002 11:20:51 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 22381 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2002 11:20:00 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jul 2002 11:20:00 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Sbpm-0005Be-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:10:06 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Sbpl-0005BZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:10:05 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17Sbpk-0002HA-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:10:04 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Sbpk-0006NT-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:10:04 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020711114341.00a82d38@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:04:57 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: WWVB In-reply-to: <1be.70b33fe.2a5e20af@cs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 19:43 10/07/2002 -0400, you wrote: > My question is this: especially for those of you who, like me, are at > some distance from Colorado (roughly 2800 km), how well do you hear WWVB > on 60 kHz, and what sort of antenna are you using to receive it? It's > rather weak here in FN20WW, rather comparable to BBC Droitwich (about > 5500 km, but mostly over water) which puts out far more power. > >Tnx & 73, > >Ray, W2RS Dear Ray, In the UK we have MSF, also on 60kHz, which is a big signal here (several millivolts/metre) - so I am unlikely to ever hear WWVB at my QTH! RX antennas are a variety of tuned wires and loops, usually whatever is giving the lowest level of mains-bourne noise at that particular frequency and time. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28967 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2002 10:10:34 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jul 2002 10:10:34 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 15031 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2002 10:09:53 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jul 2002 10:09:53 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Saiu-00050c-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:58:56 +0100 Received: from siaag2ad.compuserve.com ([149.174.40.134]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Sait-00050T-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:58:56 +0100 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by siaag2ad.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.12) id FAA27860 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 05:58:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 05:58:10 -0400 From: "Holger 'Geri' Kinzel, DK8KW" Subject: RE: LF: Amtor FEC on LF To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: <200207110558_MC3-1-603-F3EA@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Group, >Is WOLF going to operate as a Windows program this year??? ... in a world without borders and fences, who needs windows and gates ... ;-) 73 Geri, DK8KW (W1KW) P.S.: I am happy to see that my small message about Amtor triggered such a discussion. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10009 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2002 08:40:03 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jul 2002 08:40:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 15795 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2002 08:39:22 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: High Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jul 2002 08:39:22 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SZJR-0004p5-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:28:33 +0100 Received: from smtp-1.visp.telinco.net ([212.1.130.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SZJQ-0004p0-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:28:32 +0100 Received: from [212.1.140.165] (helo=standalone) by smtp-1.visp.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.32 #1) id 17SZH5-0003Oj-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:26:08 +0100 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:27:43 +0100 Message-ID: <01C228BD.359BD410.g4jnt@thersgb.net> From: "Andy talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Amtor FEC on LF Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:27:04 +0100 Importance: high X-Priority: 1 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Certainly hope not ! Putting a windows interface around anything usually damages it. Andy G4JNT -----Original Message----- From: WE0H [SMTP:we0h@core.com] Sent: 2002/07/11 02:01 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Amtor FEC on LF Is WOLF going to operate as a Windows program this year??? Mike>WE0H http://www.we0h.us/lf.html -----Original Message----- From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of David Willmore Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:07 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Amtor FEC on LF > What hapenned to WOLF ? That had very heavy convolution and repetition and > would solve the problem very effectively by coding. WOLF has undergone some surgery and is now in recovery and resting comfortably. A full recovery is expected in time for the winter season. Wolf is fairly wide band, being 40Hz wide at the -20db points. That makes it a bit larger than PSK31. Cheers, David From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27119 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2002 03:29:15 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jul 2002 03:29:15 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: (qmail 23587 invoked by uid 10001); 11 Jul 2002 03:33:07 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jul 2002 03:33:07 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SUW4-0004Dm-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 04:21:16 +0100 Received: from ool-18bfaa5c.dyn.optonline.net ([24.191.170.92] helo=block.iamanidiot.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SUW3-0004Dh-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 04:21:15 +0100 Received: from block.callsign.net (davidwillmore@localhost) by block.iamanidiot.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g6B3Khq01171 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:20:44 -0500 Message-ID: <200207110320.g6B3Khq01171@block.iamanidiot.com> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Amtor FEC on LF In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:01:20 CDT." Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:20:43 -0500 From: "David Willmore" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit > Is WOLF going to operate as a Windows program this year??? If someone would like to create a windows interface for it, sure. I have no plans to do so, but I do plan on making the WOLF code into a nice library that would make such an endeavor practical. I'm afraind that I don't do windows. ;) The best I can offer is to install the cygwin environment on a box and make a command line version for win32. My primary target for a GUI is Linux (Unix/X11). Cheers, David From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7773 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2002 01:04:49 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jul 2002 01:04:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 8110 invoked by uid 10001); 11 Jul 2002 01:08:40 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jul 2002 01:08:40 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SSKO-0003wg-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 02:01:04 +0100 Received: from mail4.mx.voyager.net ([216.93.66.203]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SSKN-0003wX-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 02:01:03 +0100 Received: from k6500 (d26.as3.mpls.mn.voyager.net [169.207.249.250] (may be forged)) by mail4.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id g6B110682883 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 21:01:00 -0400 (EDT) From: "WE0H" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Amtor FEC on LF Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:01:20 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-reply-to: <200207101507.g6AF7JK10492@block.iamanidiot.com> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Is WOLF going to operate as a Windows program this year??? Mike>WE0H http://www.we0h.us/lf.html -----Original Message----- From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of David Willmore Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:07 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Amtor FEC on LF > What hapenned to WOLF ? That had very heavy convolution and repetition and > would solve the problem very effectively by coding. WOLF has undergone some surgery and is now in recovery and resting comfortably. A full recovery is expected in time for the winter season. Wolf is fairly wide band, being 40Hz wide at the -20db points. That makes it a bit larger than PSK31. Cheers, David From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1213 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 23:48:38 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 23:48:38 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 22989 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 23:47:48 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 23:47:48 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SR8B-0003nU-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 00:44:23 +0100 Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.36]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SR8A-0003nN-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 00:44:22 +0100 Received: from RaySoifer@cs.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.1be.70b33fe (3958) for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 19:43:43 -0400 (EDT) From: RaySoifer@cs.com Message-ID: <1be.70b33fe.2a5e20af@cs.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 19:43:43 EDT Subject: LF: WWVB To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 6.0 for Windows US sub 10511 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hi,

I'm new to this group and still very low on the LF learning curve.  Other than to European LW broadcasters when travelling, I've only recently begun listening there.  My question is this: especially for those of you who, like me, are at some distance from Colorado (roughly 2800 km), how well do you hear WWVB on 60 kHz, and what sort of antenna are you using to receive it?  It's rather weak here in FN20WW, rather comparable to BBC Droitwich (about 5500 km, but mostly over water) which puts out far more power.

Tnx & 73,

Ray, W2RS

From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5246 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 16:59:27 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 16:59:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 3999 invoked by uid 10001); 10 Jul 2002 17:03:18 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 17:03:18 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SKgw-00034u-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:51:50 +0100 Received: from smtp01.infoave.net ([165.166.0.26]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SKgv-00034p-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:51:49 +0100 Received: from pacs06.infoave.net ([165.166.0.16]) by SMTP00.InfoAve.Net (PMDF V6.1-1X1 #38780) with ESMTP id <01KJXI224JAM9EODAG@SMTP00.InfoAve.Net> for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:46:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ROGER01 ([12.151.197.19]) by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V6.1-1X1 #38780) with SMTP id <01KJXI1QTTPW9JD6SB@InfoAve.Net> for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:46:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:46:00 -0500 From: "Roger Thompson" Subject: RE: LF: Amtor FEC on LF In-reply-to: <01C22819.F66D8020.g4jnt@thersgb.net> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Andy and all, I've been researching how a peak clipper might be implemented in an analog LF receiver chain before the narrowband filters, similar to your suggestion about taking noise pulses out using DSP. Such a limiting technique is mentioned in the book "Communications Receivers," 2nd edition, by Rohde, Whitaker and Bucher, but there is little about a practical design. My feeling is that a limiter could work much like transmit RF clippers, where post-clipping selectivity reduces the distortion products that might rise from diode clippers and the like. I'm a little unsure about the remaining amplitude-clipped impulses, though, as the rise time of these still may overexcite later selective stages. Has anyone information about how such a clipper or limiter could be built that would improve the signal to noise of, say, QRSS signals? Roger AD5T -----Original Message----- From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of Andy talbot Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 7:59 AM To: 'rsgb_lf_groupblacksheeporg' Subject: RE: LF: Amtor FEC on LF Importance: High OK then, so we need a waveform that is immune to high level broadband spikes. Narrow filtering will remove the spike energy, but in turn will spread it out over the period of the filter response so won't help greatly with arbitrarily low bandwidth signalling. So some data repetition or convolution is called for to get the basic link operational before we start adding error correction by repeats. ARQ can only make a mediocre link good; not a poor or non-existant one into a mediocre link. What hapenned to WOLF ? That had very heavy convolution and repetition and would solve the problem very effectively by coding. It ought to be easy to take out the noise pulses in DSP. If these really are sharp spikes, then an algorithm similar to that used for cleaning up old vinyl recordings (frequently set as a university third year project a couple of decades ago) would clip the spikes before any narrow band filtering and demodulation spread them out. Examine at the signal in the time domain (the raw samples from the A/D), and look for a sharp rise in energy, ie. a peak in sucessive samples. When a peak above a certain threshold is detected, either clip it, or replace by an interpolated version of adjacent ones. It will now help to be receiving and digitising in as wide a bandwidth as possible, so the spike affects relatively less sample periods. Andy G4JNT From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10878 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 15:13:13 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 15:13:13 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: (qmail 18460 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 15:12:30 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 15:12:30 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SJ4K-0002tC-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:07:52 +0100 Received: from ool-18bfaa5c.dyn.optonline.net ([24.191.170.92] helo=block.iamanidiot.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SJ4J-0002t6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:07:51 +0100 Received: from block.callsign.net (davidwillmore@localhost) by block.iamanidiot.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g6AF7JK10492 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:07:19 -0500 Message-ID: <200207101507.g6AF7JK10492@block.iamanidiot.com> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Amtor FEC on LF In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:58:39 BST." <01C22819.F66D8020.g4jnt@thersgb.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:07:19 -0500 From: "David Willmore" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit > What hapenned to WOLF ? That had very heavy convolution and repetition and > would solve the problem very effectively by coding. WOLF has undergone some surgery and is now in recovery and resting comfortably. A full recovery is expected in time for the winter season. Wolf is fairly wide band, being 40Hz wide at the -20db points. That makes it a bit larger than PSK31. Cheers, David From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3020 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 13:47:41 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 13:47:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 18442 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 13:46:56 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 13:46:56 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SHkh-0002hx-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:43:31 +0100 Received: from mail2.globocabo.com.br ([200.231.181.97] helo=ntweb.globocabo.com.br) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SHkg-0002hs-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:43:30 +0100 Received: from spovdesi1625 (SPOVD-ESI-1625 [5.8.11.192]) by ntweb.globocabo.com.br with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id NRKGC271; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:51:20 -0300 Message-ID: <001d01c22816$ecb6f500$c00b0805@globocabo.com.br> From: "PY3CRX PY2PLL" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000201c22792$e70d1d20$b04101d5@main> Subject: LF: Re: re LITX wire v enamelled Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:37:21 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Alan ... > Hi Marcus, I have not much experience with ferrite rods, but the article in > Electronics World for August 2002 (mentioned in an earlier posting) does > evaluate various rod configurations for efficiency. I think the conclusion > is that you cannot achieve the effective height that you can easily achieve > with an open loop. They measure a 0.77m diam 38 turn loop with an effective > height of 9metres !! The best performance ferrrite rod aerial was an > effective height of 1.8m using 12 rods 200mm x 10mm. They dismiss it as > usefull only as a portable test aerial. Well, I don't have this article but the figures you'd mentioned was enough to make me review some concepts. I have a loop but using .5mm computer flat cable - those used to connect HD/floppies to computer board - and the coupling via 1 turn loop, 30 turns on a octagon PVC structure with 6 meter perimeter. The wire spacing is roughly 1mm BUT there's the flat cable PVC dielectric. So the ressonance was much lower than predicted the Rejloop program. Seems that I'll have some hard (but not so) work winding this air loop with #24 gauge, some milimeter spacing ... and migrating the ferrite rod pre-amp/tunning ckt to it. No pain no gain ... :o/ Thanks on the comments ... 73 Marcus PY3CRX/PY2PLL S. B. do Campo - GG66rf http://py.qsl.br Active from "DC" to 24GHz From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6482 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 13:05:08 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 13:05:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 8160 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 13:04:23 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: High Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 13:04:23 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SH4d-0002by-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:00:03 +0100 Received: from smtp-1.visp.telinco.net ([212.1.130.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SH4c-0002bt-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:00:02 +0100 Received: from [212.1.150.146] (helo=standalone) by smtp-1.visp.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.32 #1) id 17SH2M-0004BU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:57:43 +0100 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:59:09 +0100 Message-ID: <01C22819.F66D8020.g4jnt@thersgb.net> From: "Andy talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Amtor FEC on LF Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:58:39 +0100 Importance: high X-Priority: 1 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: OK then, so we need a waveform that is immune to high level broadband spikes. Narrow filtering will remove the spike energy, but in turn will spread it out over the period of the filter response so won't help greatly with arbitrarily low bandwidth signalling. So some data repetition or convolution is called for to get the basic link operational before we start adding error correction by repeats. ARQ can only make a mediocre link good; not a poor or non-existant one into a mediocre link. What hapenned to WOLF ? That had very heavy convolution and repetition and would solve the problem very effectively by coding. It ought to be easy to take out the noise pulses in DSP. If these really are sharp spikes, then an algorithm similar to that used for cleaning up old vinyl recordings (frequently set as a university third year project a couple of decades ago) would clip the spikes before any narrow band filtering and demodulation spread them out. Examine at the signal in the time domain (the raw samples from the A/D), and look for a sharp rise in energy, ie. a peak in sucessive samples. When a peak above a certain threshold is detected, either clip it, or replace by an interpolated version of adjacent ones. It will now help to be receiving and digitising in as wide a bandwidth as possible, so the spike affects relatively less sample periods. Andy G4JNT -----Original Message----- From: James Moritz [SMTP:j.r.moritz@herts.ac.uk] Sent: 2002/07/10 12:29 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Amtor FEC on LF Dear Andy, LF Group, At 08:52 10/07/2002 +0100, you wrote: >137k, on the other hand is characterised by a much more constant noise >background and does not behave like HF divided by ten - if fading is >present, >it covers a much longer period of tens of minutes or hours This is true under quiet winter-time conditions, but these are in the minority - the rest of the time, a large proportion of the total noise power is in the form of QRN spikes. If you look at an RX IF output on a scope under noisy band conditions, you see a fairly low background level with much larger spikes - the noisier the conditions, the greater the rate of spikes occuring. The spikes are 10s of dB larger than the background level, and usually overload the receiver for the duration of the spike - if you manually reduce the IF gain, the background noise gets smaller, but the peak amplitude of the spikes on the scope stays much the same. When you use PSK31under weak signal conditions, the effect is that each time there is a spike, a character is corrupted, which matters little if there is only 1 spike every few seconds, but when the noise is clattering away like it is at the moment, the signal will probably be unreadable even if it is well above the background noise level. So while PSK31 is good under quiet LF conditions (and "PSK08" better still), I don't think it is the optimum mode for typically noisy LF conditions. Some sort of error correction would seem to be a good idea, since the data bits between the noise spikes will be uncorrupted, so a fairly large proportion of the data will be received OK - I have not tried the QPSK variant of PSK31 due to lack of suitable TX hardware, But I recall VE2IQ's "Coherent", which does include error correction, worked well under noisy LF conditions. This is actually very flexible software - the only real drawback of this is that it requires a computer running DOS, and some external hardware. Oh, and as with other PSK modes it requires TX envelope shaping - but there is the "variable phase" modulation technique which could help there. Since the spikes are of short duration, another approach might be to use a hardware or software noise blanker in conjunction with a low baud rate so that each bit was much longer than the noise impulse. This would require an RX IF bandwidth much larger than the bandwidth of the signal for the blanker to work effectively, but still narrow enough to eliminate adjacent channel QRM like DCF39 which would cause dynamic range problems - but with 8 or 10 bauds this should not be a problem. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26750 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 12:38:43 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 12:38:43 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 14663 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 12:38:00 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 12:38:00 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SGfT-0002YE-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:34:03 +0100 Received: from mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.50]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SGfS-0002Y9-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:34:02 +0100 Received: from dell-rik.fys.kuleuven.ac.be ([10.33.165.177]) by mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g6ACXV8C111324 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:33:31 +0200 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710141708.00ba0208@pb623250.kuleuven.be> X-Sender: pb623250@pb623250.kuleuven.be X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:36:47 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: LF: polarization of small loops In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710113519.00a82c30@gemini.herts.ac.uk> References: <01C227EF.24643850.g4jnt@thersgb.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF group, I have been looking for some information about the polarization of small loops, but no success. For full-size loops things are quite clear, a loop can be polarized horizontal or vertical depending on the feeding point. What about small loops ? I found several descriptions of small transmitting loops close to ground and there loops were fed at different places (center horizontal side, at the edges). Polarization seems to be vertical in all cases. And what about a small loop is free space ? Current distribution is uniform over the entire loop, regardless of the feeding point. So one would expect always the same polarization (but which one ?). Unless also the voltage distribution plays a role. Anyone who can point me to the right theory and/or has experience with feeding small loops at different points ? Thanks in advance, Rik ON7YD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19920 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 11:43:47 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 11:43:47 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 24520 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 11:42:51 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 11:42:51 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SFkU-0002QV-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:35:10 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SFkT-0002QQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:35:09 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17SFkR-0004UN-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:35:07 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SFkR-0006Mp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:35:07 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710113519.00a82c30@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:29:02 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: RE: LF: Amtor FEC on LF In-reply-to: <01C227EF.24643850.g4jnt@thersgb.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Andy, LF Group, At 08:52 10/07/2002 +0100, you wrote: >137k, on the other hand is characterised by a much more constant noise >background and does not behave like HF divided by ten - if fading is >present, >it covers a much longer period of tens of minutes or hours This is true under quiet winter-time conditions, but these are in the minority - the rest of the time, a large proportion of the total noise power is in the form of QRN spikes. If you look at an RX IF output on a scope under noisy band conditions, you see a fairly low background level with much larger spikes - the noisier the conditions, the greater the rate of spikes occuring. The spikes are 10s of dB larger than the background level, and usually overload the receiver for the duration of the spike - if you manually reduce the IF gain, the background noise gets smaller, but the peak amplitude of the spikes on the scope stays much the same. When you use PSK31under weak signal conditions, the effect is that each time there is a spike, a character is corrupted, which matters little if there is only 1 spike every few seconds, but when the noise is clattering away like it is at the moment, the signal will probably be unreadable even if it is well above the background noise level. So while PSK31 is good under quiet LF conditions (and "PSK08" better still), I don't think it is the optimum mode for typically noisy LF conditions. Some sort of error correction would seem to be a good idea, since the data bits between the noise spikes will be uncorrupted, so a fairly large proportion of the data will be received OK - I have not tried the QPSK variant of PSK31 due to lack of suitable TX hardware, But I recall VE2IQ's "Coherent", which does include error correction, worked well under noisy LF conditions. This is actually very flexible software - the only real drawback of this is that it requires a computer running DOS, and some external hardware. Oh, and as with other PSK modes it requires TX envelope shaping - but there is the "variable phase" modulation technique which could help there. Since the spikes are of short duration, another approach might be to use a hardware or software noise blanker in conjunction with a low baud rate so that each bit was much longer than the noise impulse. This would require an RX IF bandwidth much larger than the bandwidth of the signal for the blanker to work effectively, but still narrow enough to eliminate adjacent channel QRM like DCF39 which would cause dynamic range problems - but with 8 or 10 bauds this should not be a problem. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19365 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 09:04:11 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 09:04:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 17310 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 09:03:18 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 09:03:18 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SDJE-00023Q-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:58:52 +0100 Received: from post.omnieng.co.uk ([193.82.59.20]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SDFX-00020u-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:55:03 +0100 Received: from mail02.ifx.com.br ([200.201.133.84] helo=mail01.ifx.com.br) by post.omnieng.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17S4OJ-00020q-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:27:32 +0100 Received: (qmail 765 invoked by uid 505); 9 Jul 2002 23:27:20 -0000 Received: from py2pll@py.qsl.br by mail01.ifx.com.br with qmail-scanner-0.96 (. Clean. Processed in 0.466485 secs); 09 Jul 2002 23:27:20 -0000 Received: from 200-201-143-218.ras01.spo.dial-up.ifxnetworks.com.br (HELO local) (200.201.143.218) by mail01.ifx.com.br with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 23:27:20 -0000 Message-ID: <001d01c227a0$2f4fba40$50aec5c8@local> From: "PY3CRX PY2PLL" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <002601c22770$a3fd44a0$50aec5c8@local> <002701c22775$a777d320$a32565d5@oemcomputer> Subject: LF: Re: Re: LITZ wire X enameled Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:26:58 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Johan ... > I don't know how much better Litz can do in your case but the winding > length is also important for efficiency. If I remember correctly, best efficiency > (power transfer) is achieved when the winding covers the entire length > of the ferrite rod i.e. the coil uses as much length as possible of the concentrated > field . Unfortunately, this does not coincide with maximum coil Q. Yes. Well remembered. My first try with the 20cm rod has more or less the same turns amount but covering half of the rod lenght. Then I read somewhere about covering all rod lenght to improve efficiency so I changed from a thinner wire to this 0.5mm diameter one. Really improved. Right after I wrote the messages asking about litz wire, instead of remove some turns to change the freq covereage I spreaded the existing coil. The freq covereage changed and the signals increased, I can say something between 5 and 10dB. I´ll check later using the same SLM I used to generate a 6 frequency table with uV readings ... Thanks on the comments. 73 Marcus, PY3CRX/PY2PLL GG66rf http://py.qsl.br Active from "DC" to 24GHz From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16891 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 09:01:11 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 09:01:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 21680 invoked by uid 10001); 10 Jul 2002 09:04:59 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 09:04:59 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SDGK-00021R-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:55:52 +0100 Received: from post.omnieng.co.uk ([193.82.59.20]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SDFY-00020u-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:55:04 +0100 Received: from mail5.mx.voyager.net ([216.93.66.204]) by post.omnieng.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17S3mz-0001yp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 23:48:58 +0100 Received: from k6500 (d26.as3.mpls.mn.voyager.net [169.207.249.250] (may be forged)) by mail5.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id g69MkP965103 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:46:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "WE0H" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Summer Bonus update Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 17:46:43 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-reply-to: <000201c22753$93f0dd00$9ed47ad5@main> Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Alan, Thanks for the updated software. It still runs fine in Win 2000 SP-2. Mike>WE0H http://www.we0h.us/lf.html From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2820 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 07:56:54 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 07:56:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 3325 invoked by uid 10001); 10 Jul 2002 08:00:46 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: High Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 08:00:45 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SCHx-0001o3-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:53:29 +0100 Received: from smtp-1.visp.telinco.net ([212.1.130.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SCHw-0001ny-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:53:28 +0100 Received: from [212.1.149.174] (helo=standalone) by smtp-1.visp.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.32 #1) id 17SCFf-00059c-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:51:07 +0100 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:52:38 +0100 Message-ID: <01C227EF.24643850.g4jnt@thersgb.net> From: "Andy talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Amtor FEC on LF Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:52:35 +0100 Importance: high X-Priority: 1 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: is over 100 km away, so it does not > cause the same trouble you might have in areas such as the U.K. but helps > to fill the band at least with some signals .... ;-) > > But scaled down Amtor (divide by 10 all round) might be useful >Stewart G3YSX It is far better to tailor a data modulation and coding sceme to the medium on which it is to be used rather than just cobble together an adaptation of another scheme. AMTOR is designed for HF which has the characteristics of short bursts of interference mixed up with fading and multipath - so has a short packet length (3 characters) and low baud rate to fit in between link disturbances. High relative bandwidth is necessary at HF to counter multipath. 137k, on the other hand is characterised by a much more constant noise background and does not behave like HF divided by ten - if fading is present, it covers a much longer period of tens of minutes or hours These characteristics suggest a coding scheme that requires less error correction and can make use of narrower relative bandwidth to reduce noise. We already have JASON for low speed work, albeit with no error correction, and PSK31 is ideal for keyboard typing speeds and includes a QPSK FEC mode, although the linear Tx requirement makes it difficult to use. Link failures at LF will not be cured by ARQ (as in AMTOR) to the same extent as at HF due to the non burst nature of the noise. Andy G4JNT -----Original Message----- From: Stewart Bryant [SMTP:stewart.bryant@virgin.net] Sent: 2002/07/09 17:50 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Amtor FEC on LF From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14034 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 07:35:19 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 07:35:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 28834 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 07:34:24 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 07:34:24 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17S2u8-0000rM-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 22:52:16 +0100 Received: from carbon.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.92] helo=carbon) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17S2u8-0000rG-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 22:52:16 +0100 Received: from host213-1-65-176.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.1.65.176] helo=main) by carbon with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17S2u6-0000Lz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 22:52:15 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c22792$e70d1d20$b04101d5@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: re LITX wire v enamelled Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:51:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Marcus, I have not much experience with ferrite rods, but the article in Electronics World for August 2002 (mentioned in an earlier posting) does evaluate various rod configurations for efficiency. I think the conclusion is that you cannot achieve the effective height that you can easily achieve with an open loop. They measure a 0.77m diam 38 turn loop with an effective height of 9metres !! The best performance ferrrite rod aerial was an effective height of 1.8m using 12 rods 200mm x 10mm. They dismiss it as usefull only as a portable test aerial. I hope that helps a little. Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14767 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 07:35:07 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 07:35:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 25926 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 07:34:25 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 07:34:24 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17S2uA-0000rV-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 22:52:18 +0100 Received: from carbon.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.92] helo=carbon) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17S2u9-0000rL-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 22:52:17 +0100 Received: from host213-1-65-176.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.1.65.176] helo=main) by carbon with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17S2u7-0000Lz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 22:52:16 +0100 Message-ID: <000301c22792$e7c5bec0$b04101d5@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: DX Cluster spots 29Jun-7Jul Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 21:07:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all there has not been a lot of activity recently, perhaps the log from my local Clutser will be of interest showing that there are a few stations around. Also Mike you were heard in Germany on QRSS3 although you didnt get any answers ! 136.6 F6BWO 7-Jul-2002 0841Z cq 137.7 DF6NM 7-Jul-2002 0840Z QRSS 136.5 OZ8NJ 7-Jul-2002 0840Z in qso DK7SU 136.8 DK6NI 7-Jul-2002 0820Z cq 136.5 F6BWO 6-Jul-2002 0951Z clg DL3FDO 136.5 DL3FDO 6-Jul-2002 0950Z cq 137.7 G3XDV 6-Jul-2002 0937Z qrss 136.5 F6BWO 6-Jul-2002 0907Z cq 137.0 DL3FDO 1-Jul-2002 1546Z copy 519 in Strasbourg 136.8 SA6Q 30-Jun-2002 1008Z cq cq weak nr Ffm 136.8 G3LDO 30-Jun-2002 0933Z 137.0 SA6Q 30-Jun-2002 0903Z 559 136.8 G3LDO 30-Jun-2002 0900Z loud# 136.8 DL3FDO 30-Jun-2002 0847Z with dk7su 136.7 DK7SU 30-Jun-2002 0825Z clg cq# 136.7 OZ8NJ 30-Jun-2002 0818Z 539, dk7su clg.. 136.8 DJ2EY 30-Jun-2002 0713Z cq cq 569 in JN84SS 136.8 SK6DK 29-Jun-2002 1831Z qrv sri 135.8 SK6DK 29-Jun-2002 1829Z qrv 136.5 PA0SE 29-Jun-2002 0844Z G3NYK de GB7MRS 9-Jul-2002 2001Z > Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2337 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 20:21:18 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 20:21:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 22584 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 20:20:35 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 20:20:34 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17S1Pf-0000gX-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 21:16:43 +0100 Received: from fep01.swip.net ([130.244.199.129] helo=fep01-svc.swip.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17S1Pe-0000gS-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 21:16:42 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.101.38.226]) by fep01-svc.swip.net with SMTP id <20020709201640.BUWZ8208.fep01-svc.swip.net@oemcomputer> for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:16:40 +0200 Message-ID: <00b801c22785$89c64040$e22665d5@oemcomputer> From: "Johan Bodin" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000201c2277c$0b5f0600$d344073e@main> Subject: LF: Re: Bug report Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:16:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Alan, > ...you know what I said about the bugs creeping in as the code increases!! Hihi.. Yes, I think it is an exponential function (at least!). When the code exceeds a certain critical mass, it is impossible to correct one bug without introducing two new bugs, or more, and these new bugs are to be found where you least expect them. No wonder that Micro$oft has many tens of thousands of bugs on their Windows "todo" list (according to rumours). :) again 73! Johan SM6LKM From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16709 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 19:13:13 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 19:13:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 24678 invoked by uid 10001); 9 Jul 2002 19:17:02 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 19:17:02 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17S0Lr-0000Y3-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:08:43 +0100 Received: from carbon.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.92] helo=carbon) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17S0Lq-0000Xy-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:08:42 +0100 Received: from host62-7-68-211.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.7.68.211] helo=main) by carbon with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17S0Lo-0006pb-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:08:41 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c2277c$0b5f0600$d344073e@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: Bug report Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:08:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Johan, thanks for that....you know what I said about the bugs creeping in as the code increases!! I know what happened.....I only modified one of the equations when I did the unit switch. Thanks for that..... putting a k in front of the Ohm will put it right. A corrected version has now been reloaded Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3693 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 18:27:16 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 18:27:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 24273 invoked by uid 10001); 9 Jul 2002 18:31:05 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 18:31:05 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Rzde-0000R4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:23:02 +0100 Received: from fep04.swip.net ([130.244.199.132] helo=fep04-svc.swip.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Rzdd-0000Qz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:23:01 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.101.37.163]) by fep04-svc.swip.net with SMTP id <20020709182258.ZNVC16964.fep04-svc.swip.net@oemcomputer> for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:22:58 +0200 Message-ID: <002701c22775$a777d320$a32565d5@oemcomputer> From: "Johan Bodin" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <002601c22770$a3fd44a0$50aec5c8@local> Subject: LF: Re: LITZ wire X enameled Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:22:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Marcus, I don't know how much better Litz can do in your case but the winding length is also important for efficiency. If I remember correctly, best efficiency (power transfer) is achieved when the winding covers the entire length of the ferrite rod i.e. the coil uses as much length as possible of the concentrated field . Unfortunately, this does not coincide with maximum coil Q. 73 Johan SM6LKM From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9205 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 18:14:44 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 18:14:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 16289 invoked by uid 10001); 9 Jul 2002 18:18:36 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 18:18:35 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RzO0-0000OB-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:06:52 +0100 Received: from fep04.swip.net ([130.244.199.132] helo=fep04-svc.swip.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RzNz-0000O6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:06:51 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.101.37.163]) by fep04-svc.swip.net with SMTP id <20020709180646.ZLBY16964.fep04-svc.swip.net@oemcomputer> for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:06:46 +0200 Message-ID: <002101c22773$64a8c6a0$a32565d5@oemcomputer> From: "Johan Bodin" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000201c22753$93f0dd00$9ed47ad5@main> Subject: LF: Summer Bonus bug report Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:06:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------090406010307000204090407" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090406010307000204090407 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Alan, I think the reactance value is a little bit off. It think that the accuracy can be improved somewhat by placing a 'k' to the left of the word 'Ohm'. :) Summer returned to southern SM today after weeks of cold rain. It's still 26C outdoors at 2000 local time. 73 & thanks Johan SM6LKM --------------090406010307000204090407 Content-Type: image/tiff; name="resonance.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="resonance.gif" R0lGODlhyAGbAPcAAAAAAAAA/wCEhAD/AKWMa9bOve/n3v8AAP//AP////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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2002 16:56:40 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 16:56:40 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 11983 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 16:55:52 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 16:55:51 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RyE0-0000D6-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:52:28 +0100 Received: from mrwint.cisco.com ([144.254.98.48] helo=cisco.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RyDz-0000D1-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:52:27 +0100 Received: from virgin.net (lon-sto4-lan-vlan132-dhcp10.cisco.com [144.254.108.13]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15868 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 17:51:54 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3D2B1435.FE635610@virgin.net> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:49:57 +0100 From: "Stewart Bryant" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Amtor FEC on LF References: <200207090014_MC3-1-5A1-3D46@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: "'Geri' Kinzel, DK8KW" wrote: > Andy, > > >Isn't AMTOR / RTTY a rather wide and dirty mode to be using on LF ? > >170 Hz shift transmitting 100 Baud is at least 300 Hz wide......... > > ... well, Andy, you are definetely right, AMTOR is by far not an optimum > mode for LF, but here in Northern Germany, the LF population density is > very low, my next active LF neighbor is over 100 km away, so it does not > cause the same trouble you might have in areas such as the U.K. but helps > to fill the band at least with some signals .... ;-) > > But scaled down Amtor (divide by 10 all round) might be useful Stewart G3YSX From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20953 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 15:25:53 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 15:25:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 8492 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 15:24:56 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 15:24:56 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RwoB-00002E-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 16:21:43 +0100 Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.176]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RwoA-000029-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 16:21:42 +0100 Received: from host213-122-239-85.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.239.85] helo=main) by protactinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17Rwo8-0007HT-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 16:21:40 +0100 Message-ID: <000401c2275c$519fd920$55ef7ad5@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: Entry checking code Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:36:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Andy, yes I made myself quite unpopular for being able to key a few well chosen chars that have screwed quite a few input routines. The idea here was to avoid having to find units on the keyboard and just bang numbers in. The new buttons go a long way to making it more versatile. Also I am too lazy these days to bother protecting Joe Public from his own stupidity. I haven't even filtered alphas out of the entry! Well so far it has been checked out on 95,98 and ME, I wonder if it will crash XP ?? Have fun Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21211 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 14:54:45 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 14:54:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 29746 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 14:53:03 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 14:53:03 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RwJH-0008SI-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:49:47 +0100 Received: from d06lmsgate-4.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.4]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RwJG-0008SD-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:49:46 +0100 Received: from d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.166.84.147]) by d06lmsgate-4.uk.ibm.COM (1.0.0) with ESMTP id PAA64324 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:33:15 +0100 Received: from usa.net (ss8.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.73]) by d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/NCO/VER6.2) with ESMTP id g69EndW57848 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:49:40 +0100 Message-ID: <3D2AF7B9.BE19A5DB@usa.net> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 16:48:25 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Summer Bonus update References: <000201c22753$93f0dd00$9ed47ad5@main> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Alan Melia wrote: > Hi all, thanks to some 'positive feedback' from Mike W0EH I have modified > the resonance calculator slightly to allow a change of units. It has > allowed me to play with "radio buttons" (which I have not quite yet mastered > !! they dont SET at the progam start !) There are now radio buttons for the > size of the "nudge" also which indicate the current setting (or will when I > crack the above problem). The new zip-file is up on the web site An useful mod could be to allow to specify any two of the three variables (L, C and F) and have the program compute the third... you could just check which one of the input boxes is empty, and (if just one is actually empty) branch then to the appropriate section of code. 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1980 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 14:26:00 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 14:26:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 23899 invoked by uid 10001); 9 Jul 2002 14:29:41 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 14:29:41 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Rvpe-0008Lj-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:19:10 +0100 Received: from carbon.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.92] helo=carbon) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Rvpd-0008Le-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:19:09 +0100 Received: from host213-122-212-158.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.212.158] helo=main) by carbon with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17Rvpb-0005p7-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:19:07 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c22753$93f0dd00$9ed47ad5@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: Summer Bonus update Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:17:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, thanks to some 'positive feedback' from Mike W0EH I have modified the resonance calculator slightly to allow a change of units. It has allowed me to play with "radio buttons" (which I have not quite yet mastered !! they dont SET at the progam start !) There are now radio buttons for the size of the "nudge" also which indicate the current setting (or will when I crack the above problem). The new zip-file is up on the web site I only hope the number of bugs are not increasing with the increase in the number of lines of code! Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11171 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 11:49:17 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 11:49:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 17171 invoked by uid 10001); 9 Jul 2002 11:53:03 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 11:53:02 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RtQi-0007uu-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:45:16 +0100 Received: from irwell.zetnet.co.uk ([194.247.47.48] helo=zetnet.co.uk ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RtQh-0007up-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:45:15 +0100 Received: from a7j7r2 (man-c021.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.42.21]) by zetnet.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g69BjDC28093 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 12:45:13 +0100 Message-ID: <002501c2273d$3e6b4160$152af7c2@a7j7r2> From: "John Rabson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <01C22739.2CE7C0C0.g4jnt@thersgb.net> Subject: LF: Re: RE: re Summer Bonus foul up ! OK now...I hope Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 12:39:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy talbot" > In fact, make it completely free format so no one can crash it. I've spent > many a happy hour making the most bomb-proof user entry code then challenging > people to make it fail. Then someone does something so crass that the routine > fails and has to be modified further, and you wonder ' how did he ever manage > to find that bug'. We called it Maniac Testing. 73 de G3PAI John Rabson From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24382 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 11:16:40 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 11:16:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 17900 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 11:10:10 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 11:10:10 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Rsm2-0007p1-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:03:14 +0100 Received: from mail4.mx.voyager.net ([216.93.66.203]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Rsm1-0007ok-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:03:13 +0100 Received: from k6500 (d23.as3.mpls.mn.voyager.net [169.207.249.247] (may be forged)) by mail4.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id g69B39698170 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 07:03:10 -0400 (EDT) From: "WE0H" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: re Summer Bonus foul up ! OK now...I hope Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 06:03:24 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-reply-to: <000901c22725$232e3820$eb2f073e@main> Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: The link is good now. Let us know when you tweak the program. Thanks for sharing it with us. 73's, Mike>WE0H http://www.we0h.us/lf.html -----Original Message----- From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of Alan Melia Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 2:53 AM To: LF-Group Subject: LF: re Summer Bonus foul up ! OK now...I hope Hi Mike, thanks for the rapid response. Yes a bit of finger trouble in the Hyperlink department.....I keep forgetting to cursor right to accept the default "http:// "that is offered by FrontPage, before typing in the box. Ok on the pF and uH ...Mmmmm yes that would be easy enough, I had an idea to make it automatically set the units to the most suitable, but havent persued that yet. I though nF and mH was a good start for LF (Hi) I suppose another easier way would be to put a button in to toggle it to the users requirements.....I'll have a think about that ....Thanks I guess that you would really want "MHz" as well in that instance I believe it works ok under ME as well as '98. Hopefully the link from the programs index page is OK now. Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25235 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 10:17:12 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 10:17:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 17905 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 10:14:27 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: High Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 10:14:27 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RrxK-0007gB-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 11:10:50 +0100 Received: from smtp-1.visp.telinco.net ([212.1.130.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RrxJ-0007g6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 11:10:49 +0100 Received: from [212.1.159.146] (helo=standalone) by smtp-1.visp.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.32 #1) id 17RrvA-0001Kq-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 11:08:37 +0100 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:10:03 +0100 Message-ID: <01C22739.2CE7C0C0.g4jnt@thersgb.net> From: "Andy talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: re Summer Bonus foul up ! OK now...I hope Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:10:00 +0100 Importance: high X-Priority: 1 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: For a bit more programming practice, allow the user to enter the units as part of the values. eg. type '10u' and '100p' instead of just numbers. Hint, use the INSTR...ANY and MID$ functions in Basic to separate out the numerical and alphabetic parts. Strip out all spurious spaces, make it case insensitive(milli and Mega can be a problem). Many countries use a commas rather than a dot for decimal points. In fact, make it completely free format so no one can crash it. I've spent many a happy hour making the most bomb-proof user entry code then challenging people to make it fail. Then someone does something so crass that the routine fails and has to be modified further, and you wonder ' how did he ever manage to find that bug'. Its great fun and very addictive - make one think perhaps Microsoft haven't done such a bad job after all. Andy G4JNT -----Original Message----- From: Alan Melia [SMTP:Alan.Melia@btinternet.com] Sent: 2002/07/09 08:53 To: LF-Group Subject: LF: re Summer Bonus foul up ! OK now...I hope Hi Mike, thanks for the rapid response. Yes a bit of finger trouble in the Hyperlink department.....I keep forgetting to cursor right to accept the default "http:// "that is offered by FrontPage, before typing in the box. Ok on the pF and uH ...Mmmmm yes that would be easy enough, I had an idea to make it automatically set the units to the most suitable, but havent persued that yet. I though nF and mH was a good start for LF (Hi) I suppose another easier way would be to put a button in to toggle it to the users requirements.....I'll have a think about that ....Thanks I guess that you would really want "MHz" as well in that instance I believe it works ok under ME as well as '98. Hopefully the link from the programs index page is OK now. Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16379 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 09:20:14 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 09:20:14 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 5388 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 09:19:16 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 09:19:16 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Rr2g-0007VT-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 10:12:19 +0100 Received: from cmailenv3.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.55]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Rr2f-0007VO-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 10:12:18 +0100 Received: from [62.21.131.61] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV3.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17Rr2d-0003GG-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 09:12:15 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020709111249.009eb4f0@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 11:14:53 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: Re: LF: Summer Bonus Offer ..... In-reply-to: <001a01c226d6$b3ab4cc0$745a7ad5@main> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To Alan and All from PA0SE

Thanks Alan for a very useful program.
I downloaded it without any trouble and it immediately worked fine under Windows 98.

73, Dick, PA0SE

At 00:21 9-7-02 +0100, you wrote:
Hi all, WHAT SUMMER I hear you all shout !! Well its all relative......as
Albert would say.

After a struggle to create a Windows interface to Andy's DDS PCB I though I
would make some use of my new skills and revamp a program I wrote many years
ago in QuickBasic 4.5.  It is an LC Resonance Calculator.....I know, there
are plenty of those about........but just try this one.  It allows you to
type in values, and then 'nudge' the L and/or the C whilst continually
calculating the resonant frequency and the reactance of the capacitor. So
you can chase any condition. If you clear the inductance box it allows you
to type in frequency and capacity and gives the reactance, and you can still
'nudge' the capacitance. It is small enough to keep minimised and pull up
over a Smith chart for some 'user friendly' calculations. The file is called
Resonate.EXE

Now the Warning !! It has only been tested on Win95 but it should be OK on '
98 and I hope it will work with later systems but have nothing to test it on
(I am mean as I keep insisting! ) It does not have any entry checking so if
you type in something stupid it will either give a stupid answer or fold up.
It is available on
http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/programs.htm
or via the index page.
Brickbats direct to the usual address....

Cheers de Alan G3NYK
alan.melia@btinternet.com
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11797 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 08:55:57 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 08:55:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 409 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 08:55:08 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 08:55:08 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Rqe5-0007Nz-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 09:46:53 +0100 Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.93]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Rqe4-0007Nu-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 09:46:52 +0100 Received: from host62-7-47-235.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.7.47.235] helo=main) by rhenium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17Rqe1-0000Bp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 09:46:49 +0100 Message-ID: <000901c22725$232e3820$eb2f073e@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: re Summer Bonus foul up ! OK now...I hope Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 08:53:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Mike, thanks for the rapid response. Yes a bit of finger trouble in the Hyperlink department.....I keep forgetting to cursor right to accept the default "http:// "that is offered by FrontPage, before typing in the box. Ok on the pF and uH ...Mmmmm yes that would be easy enough, I had an idea to make it automatically set the units to the most suitable, but havent persued that yet. I though nF and mH was a good start for LF (Hi) I suppose another easier way would be to put a button in to toggle it to the users requirements.....I'll have a think about that ....Thanks I guess that you would really want "MHz" as well in that instance I believe it works ok under ME as well as '98. Hopefully the link from the programs index page is OK now. Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25518 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 04:18:57 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 04:18:57 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 1030 invoked by uid 10001); 9 Jul 2002 04:22:46 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 04:22:46 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RmP3-0006nB-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 05:15:05 +0100 Received: from siaag2af.compuserve.com ([149.174.40.136]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RmP2-0006n6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 05:15:04 +0100 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by siaag2af.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.12) id AAA23414 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:14:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:14:08 -0400 From: "'Geri' Kinzel, DK8KW" Subject: LF: Amtor FEC on LF To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: <200207090014_MC3-1-5A1-3D46@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Andy, >Isn't AMTOR / RTTY a rather wide and dirty mode to be using on LF ? >170 Hz shift transmitting 100 Baud is at least 300 Hz wide......... ... well, Andy, you are definetely right, AMTOR is by far not an optimum mode for LF, but here in Northern Germany, the LF population density is very low, my next active LF neighbor is over 100 km away, so it does not cause the same trouble you might have in areas such as the U.K. but helps to fill the band at least with some signals .... ;-) 73 Geri, DK8KW (W1KW) From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10745 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 01:17:21 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 01:17:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 4399 invoked by uid 10001); 9 Jul 2002 01:21:11 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 01:21:10 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RjXz-0006Lf-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 02:12:07 +0100 Received: from mail2.mx.voyager.net ([216.93.66.201]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RjXy-0006La-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 02:12:06 +0100 Received: from k6500 (d22.as3.mpls.mn.voyager.net [169.207.249.246] (may be forged)) by mail2.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id g691C3l18343 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 21:12:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "WE0H" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Summer Bonus Offer ..... Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:12:21 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-reply-to: <001a01c226d6$b3ab4cc0$745a7ad5@main> Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hey Alan, Your link on your web page is messed up, but I figured out how to get your program. It runs fine on Windows 2000 service pack 2. Could you tweak it to use a default of microhenry and picofarad??? Otherwise it is a good program to have at hand. Thanks, Mike>WE0H http://www.we0h.us/lf.html -----Original Message----- From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of Alan Melia Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 6:22 PM To: LF-Group Subject: LF: Summer Bonus Offer ..... Hi all, WHAT SUMMER I hear you all shout !! Well its all relative......as Albert would say. After a struggle to create a Windows interface to Andy's DDS PCB I though I would make some use of my new skills and revamp a program I wrote many years ago in QuickBasic 4.5. It is an LC Resonance Calculator.....I know, there are plenty of those about........but just try this one. It allows you to type in values, and then 'nudge' the L and/or the C whilst continually calculating the resonant frequency and the reactance of the capacitor. So you can chase any condition. If you clear the inductance box it allows you to type in frequency and capacity and gives the reactance, and you can still 'nudge' the capacitance. It is small enough to keep minimised and pull up over a Smith chart for some 'user friendly' calculations. The file is called Resonate.EXE Now the Warning !! It has only been tested on Win95 but it should be OK on ' 98 and I hope it will work with later systems but have nothing to test it on (I am mean as I keep insisting! ) It does not have any entry checking so if you type in something stupid it will either give a stupid answer or fold up. It is available on http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/programs.htm or via the index page. Brickbats direct to the usual address.... Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26514 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2002 23:29:43 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 8 Jul 2002 23:29:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 21325 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2002 23:28:48 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 8 Jul 2002 23:28:47 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RhsJ-00066M-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 00:24:59 +0100 Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.93]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RhsI-00066H-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 00:24:58 +0100 Received: from host213-122-90-116.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.90.116] helo=main) by rhenium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17RhsG-0000Qs-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 00:24:57 +0100 Message-ID: <001a01c226d6$b3ab4cc0$745a7ad5@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: Summer Bonus Offer ..... Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:21:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, WHAT SUMMER I hear you all shout !! Well its all relative......as Albert would say. After a struggle to create a Windows interface to Andy's DDS PCB I though I would make some use of my new skills and revamp a program I wrote many years ago in QuickBasic 4.5. It is an LC Resonance Calculator.....I know, there are plenty of those about........but just try this one. It allows you to type in values, and then 'nudge' the L and/or the C whilst continually calculating the resonant frequency and the reactance of the capacitor. So you can chase any condition. If you clear the inductance box it allows you to type in frequency and capacity and gives the reactance, and you can still 'nudge' the capacitance. It is small enough to keep minimised and pull up over a Smith chart for some 'user friendly' calculations. The file is called Resonate.EXE Now the Warning !! It has only been tested on Win95 but it should be OK on ' 98 and I hope it will work with later systems but have nothing to test it on (I am mean as I keep insisting! ) It does not have any entry checking so if you type in something stupid it will either give a stupid answer or fold up. It is available on http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/programs.htm or via the index page. Brickbats direct to the usual address.... Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4814 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2002 21:12:48 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 8 Jul 2002 21:12:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 7051 invoked by uid 10001); 8 Jul 2002 21:16:38 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 8 Jul 2002 21:16:37 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RfgR-0005im-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 08 Jul 2002 22:04:35 +0100 Received: from mta7-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.47]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RfgR-0005ih-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 08 Jul 2002 22:04:35 +0100 Received: from ian ([62.252.204.57]) by mta7-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020708210433.RICN302.mta7-svc.business.ntl.com@ian> for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 22:04:33 +0100 Message-ID: <000001c226bc$18a88680$39ccfc3e@ian> From: "Ian Kyle" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Off topic but good for a grin or two Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:37:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I am indebted to my son-in-law for this gem. Is Hell exothermic or endothermic? The following is an actual question given on a University of Washington chemistry mid-term. The answer was so "profound" that the professor shared it with colleagues. Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)? Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law, (gas cools off when it expands and heats up when it is compressed) or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following: "First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate that souls are moving into Hell and the rate they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project then that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand as souls are added. This gives two possibilities: 1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose. 2. Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over. So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Ms.Teresa Banyan during my freshman year - that it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you, - and take into account the fact that I still have not succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then it cannot be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and will not freeze. The student received the only "A" given." This guy obviously studied Eric Frank Russells diabologic! 73 de Ian GI8AYZ/MI0AYZ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7272 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2002 16:33:39 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 8 Jul 2002 16:33:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 5682 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2002 16:32:52 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 8 Jul 2002 16:32:52 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RbNb-00054N-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 08 Jul 2002 17:28:51 +0100 Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.111]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RbNa-00054I-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 08 Jul 2002 17:28:50 +0100 Received: from host217-35-17-5.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([217.35.17.5] helo=dellboy) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17RbNY-0007b2-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 08 Jul 2002 17:28:48 +0100 Message-ID: <000801c2269c$94ee6400$1700a8c0@home> From: "Dave Pick" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <01C2267F.D269B400.g4jnt@thersgb.net> Subject: LF: Re: Amtor FEC on LF Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:29:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Yes, and with the band so crowded at the moment.... I worked F6BWO on Saturday and he mentioned a DL amateur coming on from a tower in Austria. Does anyone know anything about this? Dave G3YXM. > Isn't AMTOR / RTTY a rather wide and dirty mode to be using on LF ? > 170 Hz shift transmitting 100 Baud is at least 300 Hz wide......... > > Andy G4JNT > > >version of MixW2. Olaf on the other side used a G3PLX converter with an old > >Siemens T100s RTTY machine behind, waking up everyone in the vicinity of > >the radio tent on the fieldday ... > > > >Maybe its time to play around a little bit with regular Amtor on LF ... > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28816 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2002 12:15:19 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 8 Jul 2002 12:15:19 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 18469 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2002 12:14:26 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 8 Jul 2002 12:14:26 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RXFK-0004Re-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 08 Jul 2002 13:04:02 +0100 Received: from smtp-1.visp.telinco.net ([212.1.130.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17RXFJ-0004RZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 08 Jul 2002 13:04:01 +0100 Received: from [212.1.140.246] (helo=standalone) by smtp-1.visp.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.32 #1) id 17RXDF-0005gh-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 08 Jul 2002 13:01:54 +0100 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:03:15 +0100 Message-ID: <01C2267F.D269B400.g4jnt@thersgb.net> From: "Andy talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Amtor FEC on LF Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:03:03 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Isn't AMTOR / RTTY a rather wide and dirty mode to be using on LF ? 170 Hz shift transmitting 100 Baud is at least 300 Hz wide......... Andy G4JNT >version of MixW2. Olaf on the other side used a G3PLX converter with an old >Siemens T100s RTTY machine behind, waking up everyone in the vicinity of >the radio tent on the fieldday ... > >Maybe its time to play around a little bit with regular Amtor on LF ... From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25077 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 11:02:41 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 11:02:41 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 26503 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 11:01:57 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 11:01:57 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17R9k3-0000xP-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 11:58:11 +0100 Received: from cmailenv2.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.54]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17R9k2-0000xK-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 11:58:10 +0100 Received: from [62.21.147.50] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV2.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17R9jy-0001nR-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 10:58:07 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020707095027.009e8360@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 09:59:16 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: Luxemburg effect? No! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE

Last Saturday I reported that I suffered from strong BC QRM centered on DCF39. I ascribed that to the Luxemburg effect.

But in the meantime I found out that this was not the cause of the trouble. Apparently some non-linear effect has developed in the transmit/receive circuitry of the transmitter.
The transmitter was built by Harry, PA0LQ and I will ask him to investigate the matter.

Most of the audio on DCF39 came from the BBC World Service.
And so DCF39 carried a report on the Wimbledon final between the Williams sisters. Actually more interesting than its own "programme"...

73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4301 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 08:45:30 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 08:45:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 29686 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 08:44:38 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 08:44:38 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17R7c7-0000fT-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 09:41:51 +0100 Received: from hugo.fen-net.de ([212.204.115.10] ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17R7c6-0000fO-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 09:41:50 +0100 Received: from DEFAULT (dialin-nbg-055.fen-net.de [212.204.116.55]) by hugo.fen-net.de (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g678ePIq004843 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 10:40:26 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <000a01c22594$013c1ee0$3774ccd4@DEFAULT> From: "Walter" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020706110149.00a08b40@POP3.freeler.nl> <17QxDo-2ETDw8C@fwd08.sul.t-online.com> Subject: Re: LF: Luxemburg effect? Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 10:54:55 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by hugo.fen-net.de id g678ePIq004843 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hallo Uwe and All, the Deutschlandfunk 153KHz is located in Donebach / Odenwald abt 50Km SSE Frankfurt. Do you have another one in Braunschweig? 73 Walter DJ2LF -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> An: Gesendet: Samstag, 6. Juli 2002 23:36 Betreff: Re: LF: Luxemburg effect? > Dick Rollema schrieb: > > To All from PA0SE > > > > Already several days I suffer from terrible broadcast QRM on the LF-band. > > It sounds like Luxemburg effect centered on DC39. > > It is so bad that this morning I could hardly read M0BMU on 137.4kHz where > > I tried to measure his field strength and reporting back with my 1944 > > Hellschreiber. Jim always has a strong signal, about S8, and the test > > failed completely due to the BC-QRM. > > I experience it on both the Teletron LWF45 LF receiver and the W & G SPM-12 > > selective level meter I used for the measurement. > > The LWF45 has excellent front-end selectivity (5 tuned circuits tracking > > the local oscillator) so it can't be cross- or intermodulation by a strong > > BC-signal. > > > > The only other cause I can think of is some "rusty bolt" effect that has > > recently developed. > > > > Do others have the same problem? > > > > 73, Dick, PA0SE > > Hi Dick, > > in the northern part of DL nothing. on 137.4kHz is DCF48 with an unintended > radiation ZOA. if taking DCF39 in zero beat I can hear the BC > station Deutschlandfunk (153kHz, Braunschweig) loud and clear. > > regards > > Uwe/dj8wx > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21184 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 08:15:40 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 08:15:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 4997 invoked by uid 10001); 7 Jul 2002 08:19:26 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 08:19:26 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17R75i-0000ZC-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 09:08:22 +0100 Received: from mta7-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.47]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17R75h-0000Z7-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 09:08:21 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.228.67]) by mta7-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020707080819.PNCB302.mta7-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 09:08:19 +0100 Message-ID: <000301c2258d$86dc5bc0$43e4fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: LF: Re: RE: USA Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:26:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
 
----- Original Message -----
From: WE0H
Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 7:56 PM
Subject: LF: RE: USA

I have my loop transmit antenna all ready to go QRO. See YA next winter.

73’s,

Mike>WE0H

 

Let me know Mike when you are ready, all systems GO at this QTH.

 

G3KEV

 

http://www.geocities.com/we0h/lf.html

 

-----Original Message-----
From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of hamilton mal
Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 12:54 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: USA

 

Hello all LFers in the USA.

Although I have had some information direct about progress in the USA on LF, I was wondering what general progress was going on, and was anyone getting ready for Transatlantic activity this coming Autumn and Winter.

All news welcome. I have extended the 120 ft vertical in GI/Tyrone to 150 ft approx. with 4 inv L antennas suspended from the mast and ready to go. Each antenna is 150 ft vertical and 400 ft horizontal. The Scarborough system, similar to last year is also operational.

All news and plans welcome.

de Mal/G3KEV

 

From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21067 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 08:15:36 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 08:15:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 4949 invoked by uid 10001); 7 Jul 2002 08:19:22 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 08:19:22 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17R75f-0000Z5-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 09:08:19 +0100 Received: from mta7-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.47]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17R75e-0000Z0-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 09:08:18 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.228.67]) by mta7-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020707080815.PNBT302.mta7-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 09:08:15 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c2258d$84dd3060$43e4fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020706110149.00a08b40@POP3.freeler.nl> Subject: LF: Re: Luxemburg effect? Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:22:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 10:12 AM
Subject: LF: Luxemburg effect?

To All from PA0SE

Already several days I suffer from terrible broadcast QRM on the LF-band. It sounds like Luxemburg effect centered on DC39.
It is so bad that this morning I could hardly read M0BMU on 137.4kHz where I tried to measure his field strength and reporting back with my 1944 Hellschreiber. Jim always has a strong signal, about S8, and the test failed completely due to the BC-QRM.
I experience it on both the Teletron LWF45 LF receiver and the W & G SPM-12 selective level meter I used for the measurement.
The LWF45 has excellent front-end selectivity (5 tuned circuits tracking the local oscillator) so it can't be cross- or intermodulation  by a strong BC-signal.

The only other cause I can think of is some "rusty bolt" effect that has recently developed.

Do others have the same problem?
No problems here Dick, the band sounds normal,  plenty of static, some storms around somewhere, but not local.
Using the spm-12
73 de Mal/G3KEV
 


73, Dick, PA0SE
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12013 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 06:00:26 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 06:00:26 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 20570 invoked by uid 10001); 7 Jul 2002 06:04:12 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 06:04:12 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17R50M-0000HY-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 06:54:42 +0100 Received: from siaab2ab.compuserve.com ([149.174.40.130]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17R50L-0000HT-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 06:54:41 +0100 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by siaab2ab.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.14) id BAA21717 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 01:54:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 01:53:42 -0400 From: "'Geri' Kinzel, DK8KW" Subject: LF: Amtor FEC To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: <200207070153_MC3-1-524-AE78@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello LF-Group, just in case someone was wondering about the RTTY signals on 137.500 kHz yesterday night: I had a long crossband QSO with our local fiel-day station DL0PPP/p in Amtor FEC, DL0PPP/p was transmitting on 7036 kHz. I used 170 Hz shift/100 Bd FEC and of course the signal was perfectly readible from both sides (with only 5 km distance not really a problem ;-) , using a trial version of MixW2. Olaf on the other side used a G3PLX converter with an old Siemens T100s RTTY machine behind, waking up everyone in the vicinity of the radio tent on the fieldday ... Maybe its time to play around a little bit with regular Amtor on LF ... Best 73 Geri, DK8KW (W1KW) From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18823 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2002 21:45:23 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 6 Jul 2002 21:45:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 8943 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2002 21:44:41 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 6 Jul 2002 21:44:41 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17QxEJ-0007f2-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 22:36:35 +0100 Received: from mailout03.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.81]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17QxEI-0007ex-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 22:36:34 +0100 Received: from fwd08.sul.t-online.de by mailout03.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17QxE2-0005gM-03; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 23:36:18 +0200 Received: from (0482183881-0001@[62.158.13.68]) by fwd08.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17QxDo-2ETDw8C; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 23:36:04 +0200 From: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020706110149.00a08b40@POP3.freeler.nl> Subject: Re: LF: Luxemburg effect? X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 23:36:04 +0200 Message-ID: <17QxDo-2ETDw8C@fwd08.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0482183881-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dick Rollema schrieb: > To All from PA0SE > > Already several days I suffer from terrible broadcast QRM on the LF-band. > It sounds like Luxemburg effect centered on DC39. > It is so bad that this morning I could hardly read M0BMU on 137.4kHz where > I tried to measure his field strength and reporting back with my 1944 > Hellschreiber. Jim always has a strong signal, about S8, and the test > failed completely due to the BC-QRM. > I experience it on both the Teletron LWF45 LF receiver and the W & G SPM-12 > selective level meter I used for the measurement. > The LWF45 has excellent front-end selectivity (5 tuned circuits tracking > the local oscillator) so it can't be cross- or intermodulation by a strong > BC-signal. > > The only other cause I can think of is some "rusty bolt" effect that has > recently developed. > > Do others have the same problem? > > 73, Dick, PA0SE Hi Dick, in the northern part of DL nothing. on 137.4kHz is DCF48 with an unintended radiation ZOA. if taking DCF39 in zero beat I can hear the BC station Deutschlandfunk (153kHz, Braunschweig) loud and clear. regards Uwe/dj8wx From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18211 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2002 12:59:01 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 6 Jul 2002 12:59:00 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 9824 invoked by uid 10001); 6 Jul 2002 13:02:48 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 6 Jul 2002 13:02:47 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Qp0I-0006cf-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 13:49:34 +0100 Received: from cmailenv2.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.54]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Qp0H-0006ca-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 13:49:33 +0100 Received: from [62.21.151.238] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV2.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17Qp0F-0006Aj-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 12:49:31 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020706110149.00a08b40@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 11:12:35 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: Luxemburg effect? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE

Already several days I suffer from terrible broadcast QRM on the LF-band. It sounds like Luxemburg effect centered on DC39.
It is so bad that this morning I could hardly read M0BMU on 137.4kHz where I tried to measure his field strength and reporting back with my 1944 Hellschreiber. Jim always has a strong signal, about S8, and the test failed completely due to the BC-QRM.
I experience it on both the Teletron LWF45 LF receiver and the W & G SPM-12 selective level meter I used for the measurement.
The LWF45 has excellent front-end selectivity (5 tuned circuits tracking the local oscillator) so it can't be cross- or intermodulation  by a strong BC-signal.

The only other cause I can think of is some "rusty bolt" effect that has recently developed.

Do others have the same problem?

73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10008 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2002 22:51:26 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 5 Jul 2002 22:51:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 29815 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2002 22:50:41 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 5 Jul 2002 22:50:41 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Qbnd-0004w7-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 23:43:37 +0100 Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.81]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Qbnc-0004w2-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 23:43:36 +0100 Received: from host62-7-15-78.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.7.15.78] helo=main) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17Qbna-00011h-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 23:43:35 +0100 Message-ID: <003d01c22475$6532d940$4e0f073e@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: re 166.5kHz again Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 23:35:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi John thanks for the update. I had hoped that I might catch an odd 'peep' of a signal in the quiet periods overnight, using Argo on the 10 sec mode. I would be interested to know what his exact frequency is as I am willing to wind the bandwidth down and see if anything can be seen. It may be necessary to do clever things with loops to get the BC noise down a bit more, if I am to stand any real chance. I am trying to keep up with the propagation reports on my web site, but it is difficult not having a transatlantic reference signal at present. The short 2000km path suffers from lots of fading in quiet conditions, where the longer paths are less affected by higher orders of 'hops'. Still the DCF39 <> CT1DRP path does give some confirmation of when things are likely to be depressed. Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5465 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2002 13:37:12 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 5 Jul 2002 13:37:12 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 24652 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2002 13:36:21 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 5 Jul 2002 13:36:21 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17QTCW-0003pM-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 14:32:44 +0100 Received: from imo-m08.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.163]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17QTCV-0003pH-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 14:32:43 +0100 Received: from WarmSpgs@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.a1.29d53e8d (4419) for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2002 09:32:08 -0400 (EDT) From: WarmSpgs@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 09:32:08 EDT Subject: Re: LF: 166.5 kHz Beacon To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: In a message dated 7/5/02 5:51:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Alan.Melia@btinternet.com writes: << Unfortunately that frequency is swamped by European BC sidebands. My noise level is about 30dBuV in 300Hz all night.....almost the strength I received CFH running 20kW....so I dont think there is much chance of hearing that on this side, certainly in the UK. >> Alas, I suspect Alan is right. To complicate the problem, the station does not seem to be radiating very efficiently at all. So far, it has only been reported heard in Mississippi, roughly 200 miles away. A typical 400W aerobeacon can be copied much farther on a regular basis. 73, John From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 96 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2002 09:56:29 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 5 Jul 2002 09:56:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 10496 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2002 09:55:45 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 5 Jul 2002 09:55:45 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17QPfg-0003Jx-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 10:46:36 +0100 Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.176]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17QPff-0003Js-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 10:46:35 +0100 Received: from host62-7-114-3.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.7.114.3] helo=main) by protactinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17QPfd-0007L8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 10:46:33 +0100 Message-ID: <000301c22408$d3db5420$0372073e@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: 166.5 kHz Beacon Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 10:44:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All, I monitored the frequency of the 166.5kHz beacon due to start transmitting at 400 watts last night (This was announced in the News banner at the LWCA web site). Unfortunately that frequency is swamped by European BC sidebands. My noise level is about 30dBuV in 300Hz all night.....almost the strength I received CFH running 20kW....so I dont think there is much chance of hearing that on this side, certainly in the UK. Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7066 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 19:04:37 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 19:04:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 9828 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 19:03:28 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 19:03:28 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17QBmI-0001b1-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 19:56:30 +0100 Received: from mail5.mx.voyager.net ([216.93.66.204]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17QBmG-0001aw-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 19:56:28 +0100 Received: from k6500 (d6.as3.mpls.mn.voyager.net [169.207.249.230] (may be forged)) by mail5.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id g64IuO943781 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 14:56:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "WE0H" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: USA Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 13:56:37 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-reply-to: <000c01c22383$dcf496a0$d5e9fc3e@l8p8y6> Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit

I have my loop transmit antenna all ready to go QRO. See YA next winter.

73’s,

Mike>WE0H

http://www.geocities.com/we0h/lf.html

 

-----Original Message-----
From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of hamilton mal
Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 12:54 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: USA

 

Hello all LFers in the USA.

Although I have had some information direct about progress in the USA on LF, I was wondering what general progress was going on, and was anyone getting ready for Transatlantic activity this coming Autumn and Winter.

All news welcome. I have extended the 120 ft vertical in GI/Tyrone to 150 ft approx. with 4 inv L antennas suspended from the mast and ready to go. Each antenna is 150 ft vertical and 400 ft horizontal. The Scarborough system, similar to last year is also operational.

All news and plans welcome.

de Mal/G3KEV

 

From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14096 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 18:01:44 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 18:01:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 17657 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 18:01:26 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 18:01:26 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17QAnv-0001OK-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 18:54:07 +0100 Received: from mta4-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.44]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17QAnu-0001OF-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 18:54:06 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.233.213]) by mta4-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020704175404.IATT29003.mta4-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 18:54:04 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c22383$dcf496a0$d5e9fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: USA Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 18:54:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hello all LFers in the USA.
Although I have had some information direct about progress in the USA on LF, I was wondering what general progress was going on, and was anyone getting ready for Transatlantic activity this coming Autumn and Winter.
All news welcome. I have extended the 120 ft vertical in GI/Tyrone to 150 ft approx. with 4 inv L antennas suspended from the mast and ready to go. Each antenna is 150 ft vertical and 400 ft horizontal. The Scarborough system, similar to last year is also operational.
All news and plans welcome.
de Mal/G3KEV
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10962 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 09:13:30 -0000 Received: from mx.last.plus.net (212.159.3.230) by mailstore with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 09:13:30 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 2828 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 08:59:54 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by mx.last.plus.net with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 08:59:54 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Q2UX-0000I8-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 10:01:33 +0100 Received: from cmailenv1.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.53]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Q2UW-0000I3-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 10:01:32 +0100 Received: from [62.21.139.171] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV1.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17Q2UT-000619-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 09:01:29 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020704104045.009ff940@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 10:49:33 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: Teletron LWF45 receiver MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE

Ruddy, ON4UX, has asked me to put the following message on the reflector.

Having heard from me that I use a hybrid LF receiver type LWF45, made by the German firm Teletron in the sixties and that I am very enthusiastic about it Ruddy ordered two of those receivers from the German firm Rainer-Foertig in Zwingenberg. One for himself and the other for Werner ON6ND. There were five sets available so there could be three receivers left.
If you want more information contact Rudy directly: ruddy.sommereyns@belgacom.net.

73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22895 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 11:34:20 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 11:34:20 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 18927 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 11:33:34 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 11:33:34 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17PiFH-0006Cj-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 12:24:27 +0100 Received: from rhodium.cix.co.uk ([194.153.21.68]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17PiFG-0006Ce-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 12:24:26 +0100 Received: from k7t.pncl.co.uk (235.235.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.uk [212.35.235.235]) by rhodium.cix.co.uk (8.11.2/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g63BOLr00089 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:24:22 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020703122501.009f38d0@mail.pncl.co.uk> X-Sender: blanch@mail.pncl.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 12:25:38 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Walter Blanchard" Subject: Re: LF: LF Roundtable 21 July 2002 In-reply-to: <3D22A982.A5329CE5@virgin.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Stewart, I still need to know whether to prepare Powerpoint or vugraphs. Walter. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1126 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 07:57:03 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 07:57:03 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 25881 invoked by uid 10001); 3 Jul 2002 08:00:50 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 08:00:49 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Peiu-0005bU-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 08:38:48 +0100 Received: from mrwint.cisco.com ([144.254.98.48] helo=cisco.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Peit-0005bP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 08:38:47 +0100 Received: from virgin.net (ams-clip-vpn-dhcp105.cisco.com [10.50.0.104]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA06707 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:38:23 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3D22A982.A5329CE5@virgin.net> Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 08:36:34 +0100 From: "Stewart Bryant" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: LF Roundtable 21 July 2002 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit  
Details of the July  LF round table can now be found at:

http://www.carc.org.uk/html/lf_round.html

Directions to the CARC can be found at:

http://www.carc.org.uk/html/mapfind.html

If anyone has any topics that they wish to add to the
agenda, please can they contact me.

73

Stewart G3YSX From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8317 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 09:43:45 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 09:43:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 17318 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 09:43:05 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 09:43:05 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17PK60-0002vM-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:37:16 +0100 Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.81]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17PK5z-0002vH-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:37:16 +0100 Received: from host62-7-94-155.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.7.94.155] helo=dave) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17PK5y-0007YH-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:37:14 +0100 Message-ID: <001101c221ac$1d3e2a20$9b5e073e@dave> From: "Dave Sergeant" To: "rsgb_lf_group" References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020701143557.00a71c40@POP3.freeler.nl> Subject: LF: Re: Bandplan Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:32:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dick PA0SE wrote: >I will use the suggestion by Geri, DK8KW, with a remark that it has not the status >of an official bandplan but should be regarded as a suggestion that has been >accepted by most, but not all, users of the LF band. >I will also add some remarks made by Mike, G3XDV, in a direct e-mail to me. This is partially true. Dick should also look on the RSGB LF site (http://www.g3wkl.freeserve.co.uk/lf/lf_index.htm) where he will find the proposed voluntary bandplan which is to be ratified by IARU region 1 later this year. This bandplan (which I think is identical to Geri's apart from some extra comments) was published in RadCom April 2002 with the comment: 'No rigid band plan is proposed for the 136kHz band, but amateurs are asked to work within the following conventions, giving long-distance communications and experimentation priority' By and large this is consistent with current band practice. 73s Dave G3YMC dsergeant@iee.org dsergeant@btinternet.com http://www.dsergeant.btinternet.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 542 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 09:41:52 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 09:41:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 28435 invoked by uid 10001); 2 Jul 2002 09:45:41 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 09:45:41 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17PK2U-0002uT-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:33:38 +0100 Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.93]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17PK2T-0002uO-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:33:37 +0100 Received: from host62-6-75-229.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.6.75.229] helo=presario-1920) by rhenium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17PK2Q-0000eO-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:33:34 +0100 From: "John W Gould" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Bandplan Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:35:17 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020701143557.00a71c40@POP3.freeler.nl> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit

Dick,  the current IARU agreed bandplanning for 136kHz is now out-of-date and a new set of Guidlines has been adopted by RSGB and sent to IARU for discussion at their Region 1 Conference in San Marino in a few months time.  The details of the RSGB proposal is at http://www.g3wkl.freeserve.co.uk/lf/136kHz.html - as you will see it is based very much on the excellent suggestion on Geri's site.  I did publicise this a while ago on the reflector, but I guess not everyone saw it.
 
If you believe that VERNON can support this proposal, then it would be appropriate to publish the details of the proposal as RSGB did earlier this year when they issued their annual update on amateur bandplans.
 
Over the last year I have been supporting LF discussions within the External Relations Committee of  IARU Region 1.  This has recently been formalised with my election onto the committee as LF Coordinator for Region 1.  
 
Hope that the above helps
 
73 John, G3WKL
g3wkl@btinternet.com 
 
 -----Original Message-----
From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of Dick Rollema
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 13:37
To: LF-Group
Subject: LF: Bandplan

To All from PA0SE

Many thanks to all who responded to my request (see below).

I will use the suggestion by Geri, DK8KW, with a remark that it has not the status of an official bandplan but should be regarded as a suggestion that has been accepted by most, but not all, users of the LF band.
I will also add some remarks made by Mike, G3XDV, in a direct e-mail to me.

73, Dick, PA0SE


Our national amateur radio society VERON every two years brings out a Vademecum (handbook, manual).

I have been asked to write the chapter on LF.

In the previous edition (year 2000) the chapter on LF included a bandplan:

135,7-136,0 kHz:    local tests and temporary beacon transmissions
 136,0-137,1 kHz:    normal CW
 137,5-137,6 kHz:    non-CW modes (PSK31, RTTY, etc.)
 137,7-137,8 kHz:    slow CW (QRSS)

Is it still considered valid or would it be better not to mention it?

Or could you recommend a different text?

Suggestions are welcome!

73, Dick, PA0SE
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19082 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2002 17:03:38 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 1 Jul 2002 17:03:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 28581 invoked by uid 10001); 1 Jul 2002 17:07:27 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 1 Jul 2002 17:07:26 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17P4VP-0000so-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 17:58:27 +0100 Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.81]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17P4VP-0000sj-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 17:58:27 +0100 Received: from host217-35-4-184.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([217.35.4.184] helo=dellboy) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17P4VN-0006m8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 17:58:25 +0100 Message-ID: <006801c22120$8d732980$1700a8c0@home> From: "Dave Pick" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <01C2210C.F68FF970.g4jnt@thersgb.net> <3D207384.5C9BE45@virgin.net> Subject: Re: LF: LF Roundtable Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:58:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Stewart. Could you, or whoever looks after the website, post that information on there? I was assured that it would be there by the time the article was published but I can't remember by whom! (there's a two-month lead time...) Thanks. Dave G3YXM. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stewart Bryant" To: Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 4:21 PM Subject: Re: LF: LF Roundtable > I am fairly certain that there are no details on the site other than the location > of the Club. We have been very busy at CARC just recently, firsly with a > multi-club radio exhibition at Peter Vallance open day, and then with preparations > for the open section of VHF field day. > > The general plan is to meet at CARC in the morning for bring and buy and > coffee, and the to hold a short paper session in the afternoon. Any volunteers > to talk be welcome, as would any suggestions for talk topics. The LF-RT should > get back on the club radar screen after this comming weekend. Anyone interested in > operating or logging near Folkestone this weekend? - we have plenty of vacancies. > > Stewart G3YSX > > Andy talbot wrote: > > > According to this month's RadCom there is to be an LF Roundtable at Crawley on > > July 21 and readers are referred to the CARC Website www.carc.org.uk for > > details. I couldn't find anything there, or was it just a case of not > > navigating properly. > > > > Andy G4JNT > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3472 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2002 15:28:44 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 1 Jul 2002 15:28:44 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 19422 invoked by uid 10001); 1 Jul 2002 15:32:27 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 1 Jul 2002 15:32:27 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17P320-0000fy-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 16:24:00 +0100 Received: from mrwint.cisco.com ([144.254.98.48] helo=cisco.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17P31z-0000ft-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 16:23:59 +0100 Received: from virgin.net (ams-clip-vpn-dhcp8.cisco.com [10.50.0.7]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA05403 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:23:27 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3D207384.5C9BE45@virgin.net> Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 16:21:41 +0100 From: "Stewart Bryant" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: LF Roundtable References: <01C2210C.F68FF970.g4jnt@thersgb.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I am fairly certain that there are no details on the site other than the location of the Club. We have been very busy at CARC just recently, firsly with a multi-club radio exhibition at Peter Vallance open day, and then with preparations for the open section of VHF field day. The general plan is to meet at CARC in the morning for bring and buy and coffee, and the to hold a short paper session in the afternoon. Any volunteers to talk be welcome, as would any suggestions for talk topics. The LF-RT should get back on the club radar screen after this comming weekend. Anyone interested in operating or logging near Folkestone this weekend? - we have plenty of vacancies. Stewart G3YSX Andy talbot wrote: > According to this month's RadCom there is to be an LF Roundtable at Crawley on > July 21 and readers are referred to the CARC Website www.carc.org.uk for > details. I couldn't find anything there, or was it just a case of not > navigating properly. > > Andy G4JNT From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22913 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2002 13:43:27 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 1 Jul 2002 13:43:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 906 invoked by uid 10001); 1 Jul 2002 13:47:35 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: High Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 1 Jul 2002 13:47:35 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17P1OQ-0000Lx-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 14:39:02 +0100 Received: from smtp-1.visp.telinco.net ([212.1.130.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17P1OP-0000Ls-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 14:39:01 +0100 Received: from [212.1.149.204] (helo=standalone) by smtp-1.visp.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.32 #1) id 17P1N3-0007mi-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 14:37:38 +0100 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:38:27 +0100 Message-ID: <01C2210C.F68FF970.g4jnt@thersgb.net> From: "Andy talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: LF Roundtable Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:38:23 +0100 Importance: high X-Priority: 1 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: According to this month's RadCom there is to be an LF Roundtable at Crawley on July 21 and readers are referred to the CARC Website www.carc.org.uk for details. I couldn't find anything there, or was it just a case of not navigating properly. Andy G4JNT From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16968 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2002 12:54:24 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 1 Jul 2002 12:54:24 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 24266 invoked by uid 10001); 1 Jul 2002 12:58:12 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 1 Jul 2002 12:58:12 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17P0cF-0000DS-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 13:49:15 +0100 Received: from cmailenv4.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.56]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17P0cE-0000DN-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 13:49:14 +0100 Received: from [62.21.151.184] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV4.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17P0cB-0005wd-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 12:49:11 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020701143557.00a71c40@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 14:36:58 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: Bandplan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE

Many thanks to all who responded to my request (see below).

I will use the suggestion by Geri, DK8KW, with a remark that it has not the status of an official bandplan but should be regarded as a suggestion that has been accepted by most, but not all, users of the LF band.
I will also add some remarks made by Mike, G3XDV, in a direct e-mail to me.

73, Dick, PA0SE


Our national amateur radio society VERON every two years brings out a Vademecum (handbook, manual).

I have been asked to write the chapter on LF.

In the previous edition (year 2000) the chapter on LF included a bandplan:

135,7-136,0 kHz:    local tests and temporary beacon transmissions
 136,0-137,1 kHz:    normal CW
 137,5-137,6 kHz:    non-CW modes (PSK31, RTTY, etc.)
 137,7-137,8 kHz:    slow CW (QRSS)

Is it still considered valid or would it be better not to mention it?

Or could you recommend a different text?

Suggestions are welcome!

73, Dick, PA0SE
 From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21692 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2002 11:42:28 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 1 Jul 2002 11:42:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 25286 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2002 11:41:42 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 1 Jul 2002 11:41:42 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17OzVf-00004H-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 12:38:23 +0100 Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.176]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17OzVf-00004C-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 12:38:23 +0100 Received: from host213-122-220-96.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.220.96] helo=main) by protactinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17OzVd-0004uw-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 12:38:21 +0100 Message-ID: <000001c220f3$bcca1fe0$60dc7ad5@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: LF Aerial cal article Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:18:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, you may be interested to hear that the two Italian authors, of a previous paper on Hi Q coils for LF, have published an article on calibrating LF aerials (They call them antennae, but those are little pokey things on insects and VHF handbags, we use aerials at LF !!) The article is published in the current (August) issue of Electronics World ( they have dropped the much loved Wireless World title these days !) pages 12 - 19. It includes data from several previous articles including Geri's web site, and his picture of the DCF39 mast. ( with approval I hope !). The article is titled "Calibrating LF antennae using DCF39" by Paolo Antoniazzi and Marco Arecco (No call-signs quoted) Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29778 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2002 10:57:27 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 1 Jul 2002 10:57:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 11377 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2002 10:56:36 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 1 Jul 2002 10:56:36 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Oygn-0008Sd-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 11:45:49 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Oygm-0008SY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 11:45:48 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17Oygk-0007Zy-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 11:45:46 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Oygk-0001mA-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 11:45:46 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020701112210.00a812b0@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 11:42:26 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: LF: Re: SAQ Transmission In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020630121416.00b0dfb8@gemini.herts.ac.uk> References: <001b01c2201e$b4d28b40$0501a8c0@ADSL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF Group, SAQ was a good signal again this weekend, although the keying sounded different than on previous occasions - as if being sent by hand rather than by machine. As well as using the RA1792 RX plus tuned loop, the electromechanical receiver was brought out again, and worked well. I had a QSO with SA6Q on 20m shortly after the morning transmission. Eventually, I also had a QSO on 136.8kHz with them as well, with some difficulty - there is some possibility of G0BMU getting a QSL card from SAQ I fear! They were quite a good 559 signal at my QTH, but gave me 429, so it would seem receive conditions were difficult at Grimeton, as on the previous occasions. I was interested to see PA0SE's field strength measurements - I made a similar measurement on one of the previous broadcasts - the ERP worked out to around 20kW. I'm not sure if the higher figure was due to measurement error, a different power level at SAQ, or different propagation to G and PA - will have to try again next time. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU