From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29839 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2002 17:35:26 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 17:35:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 27471 invoked by uid 10001); 30 Jun 2002 17:39:14 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 17:39:14 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17OiXw-0006H1-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 18:31:36 +0100 Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.45]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17OiXv-0006Gw-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 18:31:36 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.104.97.157]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020630173133.WGTF2755.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 18:31:33 +0100 Message-ID: <000f01c2205c$0103c6e0$9d6168d5@oemcomputer> From: "mike.dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Activity 29/30 June Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 18:31:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: A busy weekend for 136kHz, possibly because of the interest caused by the SAQ transmissions. I heard 7 countries on the band, which is higher than for some time. Saturday 29 June Low QRN in morning. Worked ON7ZO (gave 549; got 539). Heard M0BMU (599); G3FYX (339); DL3FDO (549). Put out CQ using QRSS3 but no reply. Sunday 30 June Low QRN until about 1200. Lots of activity, including several stations I could hear but not identify. Heard G3FYX (539); DK7SU (329); SA6Q (Grimeton station, 439) who could not hear me; OZ8NJ (439); DL3FDO (549); G3LDO (599); EI3CZ (539); PA3CPM (549). Called CQ using CW and QRSS3 but no reply. Mike, G3XDV http://www.lf.thersgb.net ==================== From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22895 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2002 15:59:26 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 15:59:26 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 27446 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2002 15:58:41 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 15:58:40 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Oh3B-00064S-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:55:45 +0100 Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net ([207.172.4.61]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Oh3B-00064N-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:55:45 +0100 Received: from 66-44-63-40.s294.tnt5.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com ([66.44.63.40] helo=nanandsandy) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #5) id 17Oh36-0006Cu-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 11:55:40 -0400 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:04:15 -0400 Message-ID: <01C2202E.417A1720.esanders@erols.com> From: "Nan and Sandy Sanders" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: SAQ reception Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:04:11 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: No luck. Only VTX3 and a lot of MSK. Will try again next time. Any one in the US hear them? Sandy WB5MMB From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5473 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2002 15:41:54 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 15:41:54 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 10948 invoked by uid 10001); 30 Jun 2002 15:46:02 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 15:46:02 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Ogmc-00061K-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:38:38 +0100 Received: from mailout06.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.19]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Ogma-00061F-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:38:36 +0100 Received: from fwd05.sul.t-online.de by mailout06.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17OgmQ-0005ei-04; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 17:38:26 +0200 Received: from 192.168.6.2 (0607144537-0001@[217.82.36.102]) by fwd05.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17OgmI-0ZBi1wC; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 17:38:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: LF: SAQ From: "bernd grupe" To: "lf-group" X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 4.104 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------070700010109010803040400" Date: 30 Jun 2002 14:59 GMT Message-ID: <17OgmI-0ZBi1wC@fwd05.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0607144537-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070700010109010803040400 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit confirm
Reception of SAQ 17,2 kHz this morning at 8h29 - 8h52 and 12.30 - 12.52 UTC transmission. RST: 599
Rx: E403 Siemens /150 BW/ HP-Analyzer(300Hz) -64 dBm peak(S9+10!!) ; Antenna:
T-Marconi: 600pF/168 mH/10m high;
Rx location : NR Frankfurt/Main Germany ; locator: JN49JV
pse qsl

73 de Bernd ; DF8ZR






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PG3W23qwsLDZ1tASaDQfmOtXJsbNIyDhE7DWx00+uogiMkosDGlj72ve2IvNs2zN52gpKhae m0Hw1Pf03Nx9hwsLA7aElVxCeWaQXCSK98deFM9qaaB4J1WZIttZADN7lAAxyqc1auvWZdI9 IGYofm7nUDa+zerCwsXU2lKyQI0eZbQ8VpFzTz7NId1NfWSLyWrKmUlCOWX0Kf8AKALD3Y9P m9TRNEkYiQSuqkBLm5Nrk3BOFhYoEJIFoyS0hSRUDfBdO8kOUsYpHRtPUHFf0+cV9XTzRyON cbFVZ3Z+hIueno9OFhYylEgpUSN8DYW2hTbilC4Ih1LmMxy/XHIYtJF7XII8drj78E3BrvWU PnEbvEGGwViB+Te18LCxEwAGzTjFZ9ISwogb4YVuY1tHnnIjmaRmFzLI2432AUADD6erq6a0 81U0gIsVCkX+232YWFiqkgBNtRGbjaQlsgC4vATmPEAXNJJQkgkQgAliwuenduPvwYtndTNT wjmWJtfunf8AlbfbhYWCH20gJtB08w2lLdBAPxjWyT18ccyrItiRfYg+ojfHrhqsgagalNMN EXcA1E7D1kknCwsE5BsRDPZp/RppHKXiaqy+sFNDDEgLWRmvISPXe1vtw/fPK4wyvWuxjb6K xvaw/JFvicLCx4NIKa0v8xo7KMhIUEitBEVPXzS02qAyySKbqJp2Ue8qPzY7ZhmTUuWIIoz5 w40l+awO/wC6G+FhYkJBWBu/uLhlBKBTfEjw3nlVQIj1tQ80r2AZF6flEnEzxHxN5nlrVVZU VssMYLsiKneAB2/4thYWAn0JCqgQnfZbVMiqRcw0yHjs5nl0M1FBM1OSReok0uLEjoux+OH3 y9XVEt5ZFCD6KqGHxN8LCxVttJbSqlyBEzMmw0o5E/awPZpy3zRayemgkqF6EqOgvbe1/E+P icS+R8QBcxh5lDFHYmxjcm+x67D8+FhYILSC2bRs4whyXJUNBaO/FufM8sDwB0kDAC9iDf04 Z/KtZ+3fYMLCxm22kIFoGYYbDKerH//Z --------------070700010109010803040400-- From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1227 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2002 15:16:40 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 15:16:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 1056 invoked by uid 10001); 30 Jun 2002 15:20:48 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 15:20:48 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17OgOD-0005xP-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:13:25 +0100 Received: from [213.4.129.135] (helo=tnetsmtp1.mail.isp) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17OgOC-0005xK-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:13:24 +0100 Received: from ADSL ([217.127.130.21]) by tnetsmtp1.mail.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15 tnetsmtp1 Mar 14 2002 21:29:48) with ESMTP id GYIYAA00.S5M for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 17:13:22 +0200 Message-ID: <001a01c22049$1e553fc0$0501a8c0@ADSL> From: "Federico Olaizola Zabala" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Fw: SAQ Transmission 2002 Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 17:16:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:15 PM
Subject: SAQ Transmission 2002

SRI   MSG 12,30 UTC little better
                                                    RST  129  QSB  QRN++
 
12,30.-   Info QSL via and schedule QSL via amateur radio
12,37.- VA
12,37-12-42  .-  Missing
12,42-12,44  "v"  series    and "s" series
12,44-12,52 .- General info  .....alexanderson .......grimeton.......
12,52.-           AR DE SAQ  SK
 
 
QTH   San Sebastián   -  IN93ah   -    1.800  km
 
Rig
 
loop  105 cm diameter
12 turns  wire 2,5 mm2
40 m RG 213
tuned shack with  190 nF
Z adapter/preamp G3YXM
Converter  SM6LKM  - 3,5 mhz
TRX  Yaesu FT747GX
 
 
                best 73 es HPE CUAGN.
 
                                    PSE QSL  2'002
                                                                EA2HB    Federico
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24249 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2002 14:50:59 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 14:50:59 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 23655 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2002 14:50:34 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 14:50:34 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Oft5-0005rs-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 15:41:15 +0100 Received: from cmailenv4.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.56]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Oft4-0005rn-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 15:41:14 +0100 Received: from [62.21.149.10] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV4.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17Oft0-0008BM-00; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 14:41:10 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020630153034.00a58e60@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:40:51 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: SAQ Cc: "Cas Caspers" , "Jaap Kroon, PA0IF" , "Jan Harte" , "Jan Hekkert, PA3HCD" , "Koos Fockens, PA0KDF" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE

Today I had good reception of SAQ on 17.2kHz. I used a Wandel & Goltermann SLM type SPM-12 connected to the aerial system for 136kHz with 26nF extra in parallel with the loading coil.

Replacing the aerial by a one-turn untuned square loop of 1 x 1 m the signal was sufficiently over the noise to be measured at 0.174 microvolt (25Hz I.F. bandwidth).

From this follows a field strength of about 482 microvolt/metre (53.7dBµV).

This makes it possible to do some speculation as to the power radiated by SAQ (Effective Monopole Radiated Power, EMRP).

The coordinates of SAQ are given as 57.07N, 12.24E. Using a computer program written by Harry, PA0LQ, I find as QTH locator JO67CB. My own locator is JO22GD. Again using Harry's program yields a distance of 735km.

We can now enter these data into the graphs of CCIR Recommendation 368-7 for ground-wave propagation. This results in:

Type of ground  dielectric constant    conductivity (mS/m)  EMRP

Perfect ground          -                                        -                            1.4kW

Land                           40                                     30                          3.0kW

Land                           22                                       3                          3.7kW

Medium dry               15                                       1                         4.7kW
ground

Dry ground                  7                                       0.3                      5.9kW
ground

If we estimate from these data an EMRP of 4kW then with an alternator output of 200kW the efficiency of the aerial system is (4/200) * 100% = 2%.

For an aerial at such a low frequency that seems not too bad.

It could well be that the aerial system was designed to give some directivity towards the USA.
In that case the power must be higher than assumed.

Well, take it for what it is worth!

It would be nice if someone nearer to Grimeton would measure the field strength outside the near field area, for instance  at 5 wavelength distance, or 87km.
At that distance at 17.2km perfect ground can be assumed for calculating the EMRP (1kw produces 300mV/m at 1km distance, decreasing in a linear way with distance). 

I also managed to work SA6Q in the 136kHz band. Sent RST459, received RST429.

I have made a WAV recording of SAQ of 1 minute duration and have sent it to SAQ. It is much too to  pass the reflector.

73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4760 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2002 11:24:47 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 11:24:47 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 23946 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2002 11:24:26 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 11:24:26 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17OchC-0005Ng-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:16:46 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17OchC-0005Nb-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:16:46 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17Och9-0002hQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:16:43 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Och8-0006wu-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:16:42 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020630121416.00b0dfb8@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:16:40 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: LF: SAQ Transmision 08,30 / 30-06-02 In-reply-to: <001b01c2201e$b4d28b40$0501a8c0@ADSL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF group, SAQ received here 599 as usual this morning - Also I have been hearing SA6Q calling CQ around 136.87 kHz, but no response to my calls Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22410 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2002 10:15:31 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 10:15:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 24642 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2002 10:14:48 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 10:14:48 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ObeP-0005DR-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 11:09:49 +0100 Received: from [213.4.129.135] (helo=tnetmx1.mail.isp) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ObeO-0005DM-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 11:09:48 +0100 Received: from ADSL ([217.127.130.21]) by tnetmx1.mail.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15 tnetmx1 Mar 14 2002 21:29:48) with ESMTP id GYIK4G01.R7W for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:07:28 +0200 Message-ID: <001b01c2201e$b4d28b40$0501a8c0@ADSL> From: "Federico Olaizola Zabala" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Fw: SAQ Transmision 08,30 / 30-06-02 Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:12:55 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:08 PM
Subject: SAQ Transmision 08,30 / 30-06-02

        Dr OMs.
                    I have heard SAQ at 08,30 GMT in 17,2 khz.   
 
                        RTS has been 119,  QSB  and vy vy  QRN.
 
       I think I have identified:
            - Schedule of contacts in OM bands
            - A long serie of  "v" s
            - A "CQ de SAQ"  in close time
 
                                    VY TNX  es 73 de EA2HB
 
 
 
               
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25385 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2002 09:24:35 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 09:24:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 26233 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2002 09:23:48 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 09:23:47 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Oasn-00053I-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 10:20:37 +0100 Received: from e1.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.101]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Oasi-00052S-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 10:20:32 +0100 Received: from northrelay01.pok.ibm.com (northrelay01.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.149]) by e1.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g5U9Jwg5261978 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 05:19:58 -0400 Received: from usa.net (ss4.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.69]) by northrelay01.pok.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/NCO/VER6.1) with ESMTP id g5U9JjF116192 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 05:19:46 -0400 Message-ID: <3D1ECD1F.15F2F4DE@usa.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 11:19:27 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: SAQ-transmission References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020609231849.00a3add0@POP3.freeler.nl> <000c01c22015$02eec640$a45cf9c1@v1j7v5> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010800040908040607000705" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010800040908040607000705 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit SAQ transmissions ended at 10:52 local time, as seen on the
attached screen capture.

73  Alberto  I2PHD
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for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 05:17:44 -0400 Message-ID: <3D1ECCA6.60713025@usa.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 11:17:26 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re:SAQ-transmission References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020609231849.00a3add0@POP3.freeler.nl> <000c01c22015$02eec640$a45cf9c1@v1j7v5> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010406010600070701050504" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010406010600070701050504 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit SAQ received in Northern Italy, using a (badly damaged) loop
resonated with 220 nF, directly coupled with the sound card
Line Input. Screen shots attached. Time reported is local time.
Unless my sound card's sampling rate is completely wrong,
which shouldn't, the SAQ frequency seems to be a tad low,
roughly 17190 Hz.
Not bad for such an ancient device.

73  Alberto  I2PHD
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4EBAIAJeoFGmIjlixep8ssYEgNa0hgeihQYoQPM2hAMMJwJS4Mo8ALXuKCfSI3EOyTdKaGaG AwVM4MVeYnqySABA4AZ8oAe8rrxKyVZa4EZ0CAQi5FU2YHlcoCSUaXg8o4RwwK5AwD/GCDg+ pQI0sABQAHSS5gRSAHRAKy0hgG0Oo2FS4pnC5n/8JypcoA18gPx8KVAEADsWYA5iZePy5j0b qwfEqASuQ0cGg0ASA8G6kUAmoDk2QAO00TIowKlQyiT4Q7BSIF+ipVKuxJ46oAZ84Ac+ICt2 RjwMwAXoi3ccyjZ0wHgWO+URm0LBNLIFEqesqgRCdC1VdIohUOgYUyQkFucCjqpKmoaG9gkC +gQrKwACAuQHrCAKvqQs/qVvAgIAADs= --------------010406010600070701050504-- From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9936 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2002 09:19:15 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 09:19:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 23973 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2002 09:18:50 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 09:18:50 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17OaoQ-00051I-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 10:16:06 +0100 Received: from moutvdom01.kundenserver.de ([195.20.224.200]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17OaoP-00051D-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 10:16:06 +0100 Received: from [172.19.20.61] (helo=mrvdomng0.kundenserver.de) by moutvdom01.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 17OaoO-0004PY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 11:16:04 +0200 Received: from p3e9e9cf0.dip.t-dialin.net ([62.158.156.240] helo=diolog.de) by mrvdomng0.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 17OaoN-0002J4-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 11:16:03 +0200 Message-ID: <001701c22016$49606a60$0201a8c0@parentes> From: "fk" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020609231849.00a3add0@POP3.freeler.nl> <000c01c22015$02eec640$a45cf9c1@v1j7v5> Subject: LF: Re: SAQ-transmission Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 11:12:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit

SAQ was solid readably here in JO32QG on 17,2 kHz with an unmatched piece of wire + h/m converter this morning. Also a lot of activity on 136 kHz heard today (DK7SU [with a big signal now!], DL3FDO, G3LDO, OZ8NJ, DF6NM ..)..
 
73, Fabian dj1yfk
----- Original Message -----
From: f1tay
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 11:00 AM
Subject: LF: SAQ-transmission

 
Reception of SAQ 17,2 kHz this morning at 8h45 - 8h52 UTC transmission.
RST: 559
Rx: JRC NRD-525 + DATONG VLF converter
Antenna: outside DISCONE VHF-UHF
Rx location : PARIS (France)     locator:  JN18EV
 
73 de Daniel
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13423 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2002 09:07:48 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 09:07:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 19025 invoked by uid 10001); 30 Jun 2002 09:11:57 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Jun 2002 09:11:57 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Oaco-0004yU-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 10:04:06 +0100 Received: from smtp-out-6.wanadoo.fr ([193.252.19.25] helo=mel-rto6.wanadoo.fr) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Oacn-0004yP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 10:04:05 +0100 Received: from mel-rta9.wanadoo.fr (193.252.19.69) by mel-rto6.wanadoo.fr (6.5.007) id 3D186837002ED019 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 11:03:33 +0200 Received: from v1j7v5 (193.249.92.164) by mel-rta9.wanadoo.fr (6.5.007) id 3D11E5D60051D551 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 11:03:33 +0200 Message-ID: <000c01c22015$02eec640$a45cf9c1@v1j7v5> From: "f1tay" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020609231849.00a3add0@POP3.freeler.nl> Subject: LF: SAQ-transmission Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 09:00:18 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
 
Reception of SAQ 17,2 kHz this morning at 8h45 - 8h52 UTC transmission.
RST: 559
Rx: JRC NRD-525 + DATONG VLF converter
Antenna: outside DISCONE VHF-UHF
Rx location : PARIS (France)     locator:  JN18EV
 
73 de Daniel
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29977 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2002 02:15:55 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 29 Jun 2002 02:15:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 6772 invoked by uid 10001); 29 Jun 2002 02:19:44 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 29 Jun 2002 02:19:44 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17O7iT-0001Xf-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 03:12:01 +0100 Received: from mail4.mx.voyager.net ([216.93.66.203]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17O7iS-0001Xa-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 03:12:00 +0100 Received: from k6500 (d21.as3.mpls.mn.voyager.net [169.207.249.245] (may be forged)) by mail4.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id g5T2Bv696729 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 22:11:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "WE0H" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: 47A of loop current: No sweat! Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 21:12:02 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Fire 'em up there, wild Bill!!! Mike>WE0H http://www.geocities.com/we0h/lf.html -----Original Message----- From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of Ashlock,William Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 5:06 PM To: 'rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org' Subject: LF: 47A of loop current: No sweat! Mal and group, I was just pricing out various sizes of copper pipe at the local builders department store for the next "dream" (or is that "pie in the sky"?) loop antenna. Turns out 2" ID pipe is $18 per 10 ft section which would yeild a 0.04ohm Rac on a 50'x50' loop, neglecting soil loss. Was actually contemplating reducing the size to about 1/4th the area to allow raising and lowering the loop to measure various losses without a reduction in the basic radiated power @ an input of 1w. Then I did a little 'wild math' (or call it 'wildfire' math) to determine the dimensions of a 47A loop (still at 1w to keep it legal) that would have the same radiation as my 50'x50' 1/2" pipe loop. Considering my present 1.8A, going to 47A would allow a 47/1.8 = ~25x reduction in loop area. The new area would be 2500/25 = 100sq ft or 10ft per side. So far, so good. But in order to achieve 47A @ 1w the Rac of the new loop would have to be 1/(47^2)= .00045 ohms. I did a bit of manipulation of the formula for Rac Vs conductor diameter for a 40ft long copper conductor and came up with: Diameter (in inches) = .016/Rac. Using an Rac of .00045 the diameter comes to 35 inches. Well.... not impossible! And could be fashioned from .01" thick copper foil - maybe $200 worth! Just thought you might want to know...... TGIF! Bill A _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10395 invoked from network); 28 Jun 2002 22:25:51 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 28 Jun 2002 22:25:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 26082 invoked from network); 28 Jun 2002 22:25:08 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 28 Jun 2002 22:25:08 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17O43E-00012v-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 23:17:12 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17O43D-00012q-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 23:17:12 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 7849 invoked from network); 28 Jun 2002 22:17:09 -0000 Received: from merimac.us.gases.boc.com (HELO merimac) (204.149.80.4) by server-2.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 28 Jun 2002 22:17:09 -0000 Received: from ([162.118.144.226]) by merimac; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 18:17:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by EXC_WIL04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 18:25:43 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: 47A of loop current: No sweat! Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 18:05:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Mal and group, I was just pricing out various sizes of copper pipe at the local builders department store for the next "dream" (or is that "pie in the sky"?) loop antenna. Turns out 2" ID pipe is $18 per 10 ft section which would yeild a 0.04ohm Rac on a 50'x50' loop, neglecting soil loss. Was actually contemplating reducing the size to about 1/4th the area to allow raising and lowering the loop to measure various losses without a reduction in the basic radiated power @ an input of 1w. Then I did a little 'wild math' (or call it 'wildfire' math) to determine the dimensions of a 47A loop (still at 1w to keep it legal) that would have the same radiation as my 50'x50' 1/2" pipe loop. Considering my present 1.8A, going to 47A would allow a 47/1.8 = ~25x reduction in loop area. The new area would be 2500/25 = 100sq ft or 10ft per side. So far, so good. But in order to achieve 47A @ 1w the Rac of the new loop would have to be 1/(47^2)= .00045 ohms. I did a bit of manipulation of the formula for Rac Vs conductor diameter for a 40ft long copper conductor and came up with: Diameter (in inches) = .016/Rac. Using an Rac of .00045 the diameter comes to 35 inches. Well.... not impossible! And could be fashioned from .01" thick copper foil - maybe $200 worth! Just thought you might want to know...... TGIF! Bill A _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5975 invoked from network); 28 Jun 2002 06:28:23 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 28 Jun 2002 06:28:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 15632 invoked by uid 10001); 28 Jun 2002 06:32:28 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 28 Jun 2002 06:32:28 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Np6W-0007Pz-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 07:19:36 +0100 Received: from irwell.zetnet.co.uk ([194.247.47.48] helo=zetnet.co.uk ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Np6V-0007Pu-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 07:19:35 +0100 Received: from a7j7r2 (man-c035.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.42.35]) by zetnet.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g5S6JX209472 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 07:19:33 +0100 Message-ID: <004001c21e6b$a2a743c0$232af7c2@a7j7r2> From: "John Rabson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: LORAN Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 07:18:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi, As people may be aware, LORAN is sometimes a problem for cave radio work. One of the things I am investigating is the possibility of using alternative low frequencies for our operations. Before I go too far into this matter I need to know what is likely to happen with LORAN in North West Europe in the next few years. Is the Irish transmitter going ahead? Is the whole thing being ceased? Regards, John Rabson Editor Cave Radio and Electronics Journal From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8513 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2002 08:50:06 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 27 Jun 2002 08:50:06 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 14486 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2002 08:49:45 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 Jun 2002 08:49:45 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NUvS-0004VO-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:46:50 +0100 Received: from mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.50]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NUvR-0004VJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:46:49 +0100 Received: from dell-rik.fys.kuleuven.ac.be ([10.33.165.177]) by mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g5R8kHOO086884 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:46:17 +0200 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020627104115.00b88ee8@pb623250.kuleuven.be> X-Sender: pb623250@pb623250.kuleuven.be X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:49:11 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: Re: LF: Bandplan In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020627100745.009e8800@POP3.freeler.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hello Dick,

Have a look at Geri's homepage : http://www.qru.de/bandplan.htm

Just some minor differences with your proposal, but it seems best to me if we can get the "violins tuned" in all countries.

73, Rik ON7YD


At 10:17 27/06/2002 +0200, you wrote:
To All from PA0SE

Our national amateur radio society VERON every two years brings out a Vademecum (handbook, manual).

I have been asked to write the chapter on LF.

In the previous edition (year 2000) the chapter on LF included a bandplan:

135,7-136,0 kHz:    local tests and temporary beacon transmissions
 136,0-137,1 kHz:    normal CW
 137,5-137,6 kHz:    non-CW modes (PSK31, RTTY, etc.)
 137,7-137,8 kHz:    slow CW (QRSS)

Is it still considered valid or would it be better not to mention it?

Or could you recommend a different text?

Suggestions are welcome!

73, Dick, PA0SE
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6273 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2002 08:40:28 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 27 Jun 2002 08:40:28 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 16744 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2002 08:40:00 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 Jun 2002 08:40:00 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NUhz-0004Rv-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:32:55 +0100 Received: from siaag1ac.compuserve.com ([149.174.40.5]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NUhx-0004Rk-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:32:53 +0100 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by siaag1ac.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.14) id EAA18628 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 04:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 04:31:56 -0400 From: "Holger 'Geri' Kinzel, DK8KW" Subject: LF: Bandplan To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: <200206270432_MC3-1-403-D6E4@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello Dick, as you might know, I have tried to include all my observations and discussions into my "unofficial bandplan" (see http://www.qru.de/bandplan.htm). Based on this, I suggest to change the text as follows: 135,7-136,0 kHz: local tests and temporary beacon transmissions 136,0-137,4 kHz: normal CW 137,4-137,6 kHz: non-CW modes (PSK31, RTTY, etc.) 137,6-137,8 kHz: slow CW (QRSS) Maybe you want to include some kind of "footnotes" in regards to the transatlantic windows (G3XDV has some very good information on those), and on the character of the 136.500 kHz as a kind of "Center of Activity" or "Calling Frequency". Best 73 Geri, DK8KW (W1KW) From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15305 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2002 08:24:22 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 27 Jun 2002 08:24:22 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 1829 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2002 08:23:38 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 Jun 2002 08:23:38 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NURk-0004P0-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:16:08 +0100 Received: from cmailenv4.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.56]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NURj-0004Ov-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:16:07 +0100 Received: from [62.21.151.8] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV4.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17NURg-0004tz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 08:16:05 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020627100745.009e8800@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:17:45 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: Bandplan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE

Our national amateur radio society VERON every two years brings out a Vademecum (handbook, manual).

I have been asked to write the chapter on LF.

In the previous edition (year 2000) the chapter on LF included a bandplan:

135,7-136,0 kHz:    local tests and temporary beacon transmissions
 136,0-137,1 kHz:    normal CW
 137,5-137,6 kHz:    non-CW modes (PSK31, RTTY, etc.)
 137,7-137,8 kHz:    slow CW (QRSS)

Is it still considered valid or would it be better not to mention it?

Or could you recommend a different text?

Suggestions are welcome!

73, Dick, PA0SE
 From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14854 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2002 23:15:14 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jun 2002 23:15:14 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 29941 invoked by uid 10001); 26 Jun 2002 23:19:19 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jun 2002 23:19:19 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NLtQ-0003Ek-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 00:08:08 +0100 Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net ([207.172.4.60]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NLtP-0003Ef-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 00:08:07 +0100 Received: from 66-44-58-150.s150.tnt3.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com ([66.44.58.150] helo=nanandsandy) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #5) id 17NLtK-0004UZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:08:02 -0400 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:16:41 -0400 Message-ID: <01C21D46.00DE9AA0.esanders@erols.com> From: "Nan and Sandy Sanders" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: FIRE Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:16:37 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Only one small fire during the AMRAD test. Grass grew high and touched the lead from the loading coil to the vertical. Sandy WB5MMB ---------- From: hamilton mal[SMTP:g3kev.ham@virgin.net] Reply To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 2:14 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: FIRE <> Big fires USA Big Loops and big 47 Amp Sparks Loops coupled to trees I think I mentioned this could happen some weeks ago. Perhaps it is just a coincidence From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26468 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2002 19:49:46 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jun 2002 19:49:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 19757 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2002 19:49:25 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jun 2002 19:49:25 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NIih-0002iF-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:44:51 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NIig-0002iA-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:44:50 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 31045 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2002 19:44:47 -0000 Received: from merimac.us.gases.boc.com (HELO merimac) (204.149.80.4) by server-10.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 26 Jun 2002 19:44:47 -0000 Received: from ([162.118.144.226]) by merimac; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:44:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by EXC_WIL04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:51:24 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: RE: FIRE Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:31:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >> Big fires US >> Big Loops and big 47 Amp Spark >> Loops coupled to trees >> I think I mentioned this could happen some weeks ago. >> Perhaps it is just a coincidence > Nah, only verticals start fires!!! Really I haven't seen an antenna-induced fire as of yet. >73's, Mike>WE0H Just wait. Could be a 'hot time in the old town tonight' ! Bill A _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11049 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2002 19:23:30 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jun 2002 19:23:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 21015 invoked by uid 10001); 26 Jun 2002 19:27:35 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jun 2002 19:27:35 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NIGw-0002dY-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:16:10 +0100 Received: from mail4.mx.voyager.net ([216.93.66.203]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NIGu-0002dT-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:16:08 +0100 Received: from k6500 (d9.as3.mpls.mn.voyager.net [169.207.249.233] (may be forged)) by mail4.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id g5QJG4650721 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:16:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "WE0H" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: FIRE Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:16:21 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <000c01c21d3d$59dc1000$cfe8fc3e@l8p8y6> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit

Nah, only verticals start fires!!! Really I haven’t seen an antenna-induced fire as of yet.

73’s,

Mike>WE0H

http://www.geocities.com/we0h/lf.html

 

-----Original Message-----
From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of hamilton mal
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:14 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: FIRE

 

Big fires USA

Big Loops and big 47 Amp Sparks

Loops coupled to trees

I think I mentioned this could happen some weeks ago.

Perhaps it is just a coincidence

 

 

From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25055 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2002 18:20:34 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jun 2002 18:20:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 19993 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2002 18:19:49 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jun 2002 18:19:48 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NHIv-0002TV-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:14:09 +0100 Received: from mta7-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.47]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NHIv-0002TQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:14:09 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.232.207]) by mta7-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020626181407.JSUH302.mta7-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:14:07 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c21d3d$59dc1000$cfe8fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: FIRE Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:14:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Big fires USA
Big Loops and big 47 Amp Sparks
Loops coupled to trees
I think I mentioned this could happen some weeks ago.
Perhaps it is just a coincidence
 
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8656 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2002 14:25:58 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 26 Jun 2002 14:25:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 7232 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2002 14:25:18 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 Jun 2002 14:25:18 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NDY5-0001r1-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:13:33 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NDY2-0001qv-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:13:30 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17NDXy-00073a-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:13:26 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17NDXx-0002ag-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:13:26 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020626142710.00aad6a0@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:09:05 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: short vertical dipole In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020625172644.00b1e138@pb623250.kuleuven.be> References: <29BDD4F529FCD311B631009027357C4E04D69B9B@btss103a.swh.sk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Rik, LF group, At 17:41 25/06/2002 +0200, you wrote: >Has anyone ever tried a short vertical dipole on LF (either built and >tested one or simulated one) ? > >The free space radiation resistance of a short vertical dipole would be >only half of that of a vertical monopole of the same size (Ra = >197*H^2/L^2, where H = dipole height and L = wavelength), so that would be >a 3dB drawback. But close to (a perfect) ground the radiation resistance >should increase (double) again, and win the 3dB back. >The main disadvantage would probably the relative low antenna capacitance, >one would need a large loading coil (= large loss). >But on the other hand a dipole could be less dependent on >ground/environement conditions (not as much as a loop but better than a >vertical monopole). A short vertical dipole in free space would have a symmetrical current distribution, maximum in the middle and zero at the ends. Placing it close to a ground plane would modify this because displacement current would flow between the ground plane and the lower half of the dipole, increasing the current towards the bottom end of the dipole making the current distribution more even in the lower part of the dipole. The current distribution in the case where the lower end of the dipole was very close to the ground would be very similar to that of a short monopole with an elevated feed point - if the lower end of the dipole actually was in contact with the ground plane, it would be a monopole of course. You could increase the capacitance by adding end loading to the dipole - if the lower end of the dipole were close to the ground, in effect you would have a top-loaded vertical with an elevated feed driven against a counterpoise. A practical difficulty would be caused by the asymmetrical nature of the dipole - it would be necessary to have some way of adjusting the voltages applied to the upper and lower legs of the dipole to get equal current in both legs, and zero net current on the feed line, in order to achieve the proper dipole operation. Since the lower end of the dipole would be a high voltage point, and close to the ground, there would be increased dielectric losses in the ground under the antenna, which would tend to reduce any advantage of this antenna configuration. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17586 invoked from network); 25 Jun 2002 19:51:23 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 25 Jun 2002 19:51:23 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 20297 invoked from network); 25 Jun 2002 19:50:55 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 25 Jun 2002 19:50:55 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MwGv-0007qm-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 20:46:41 +0100 Received: from cmailenv4.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.56]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MwGu-0007qh-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 20:46:41 +0100 Received: from [62.21.151.216] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV4.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17MwGs-0007BA-00; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 19:46:39 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020625214438.00a60050@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:48:24 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: LF exciter by ZL1BPU Cc: "Murray Greenman, ZL1BPU" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE

The following is part of an e-mail I received from Murray, ZL1BPU.

73, Dick, PA0SE



I have just about completed the design of an LF Exciter using a
microcontroller. It is very simple (all the compexity is in the micro), and
yet it offers very high performance on the LF bands. The synthesizer uses
software DDS and a step size of 84 mHz (1/3 the JASON step). It operates
ASK, FSK, DFCW, FELDHELL and MT-HELL, and I am at present testing it with
JASON. It has a built-in beacon which also operates all these modes and has
a 120 character message. The output is about 1W from 10 kHz to 250 kHz, and
it operates from 0 to 400 kHz.

73,

Murray ZL1BPU
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6340 invoked from network); 25 Jun 2002 16:05:08 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 25 Jun 2002 16:05:08 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 22031 invoked from network); 25 Jun 2002 16:04:46 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 25 Jun 2002 16:04:45 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Msj8-0007Gw-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 16:59:34 +0100 Received: from cmailenv3.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.55]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Msj7-0007Gp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 16:59:33 +0100 Received: from [62.21.148.58] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV3.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17Msj4-00005p-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 15:59:31 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020625175928.009eaa70@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 17:59:45 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: Fwd: LF: Dick PA0SE, Hell machine photo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
X-From_: majordom@post.thorcom.com Tue Jun 25 11:39:14 2002
Envelope-to: d.w.rollema@freeler.nl
From: "Greenman Family" <coombedn@ihug.co.nz>
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>,
        <lofexp@yahoogroups.com>,
        "Hell Reflector" <Hellschreiber@onelist.com>
Subject: LF: Dick PA0SE, Hell machine photo
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 23:10:57 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1
Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sender:  <majordom@post.thorcom.com>

Hell Raisers and Lowfers,

Dick PA0SE did a great job over the weekend with his 1944 Hell machine, and
I have seen numerous screen shots, plus many folk made sure that I saw the
messages that Dick posted.

The one thing he forgot to mention, and I am sure it will be of interest to
you all, is that there's a very nice photo of the very same machine, taken
by Dick, at:

http://www.qsl.net/zl1bpu/FUZZY/History/feldhell.html

73,

Murray ZL1BPU

P.S. - If you are on the rsgb_lf_group, and don't see this message there,
please repost it!
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17875 invoked from network); 25 Jun 2002 15:43:37 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 25 Jun 2002 15:43:37 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 11884 invoked by uid 10001); 25 Jun 2002 15:47:40 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 25 Jun 2002 15:47:39 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MsP9-0007DN-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 16:38:55 +0100 Received: from mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.50]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MsP8-0007DC-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 16:38:54 +0100 Received: from dell-rik.fys.kuleuven.ac.be ([10.33.165.177]) by mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g5PFcKpW211966 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 17:38:21 +0200 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020625172644.00b1e138@pb623250.kuleuven.be> X-Sender: pb623250@pb623250.kuleuven.be X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 17:41:14 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: LF: short vertical dipole In-reply-to: <29BDD4F529FCD311B631009027357C4E04D69B9B@btss103a.swh.sk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello group, Has anyone ever tried a short vertical dipole on LF (either built and tested one or simulated one) ? The free space radiation resistance of a short vertical dipole would be only half of that of a vertical monopole of the same size (Ra = 197*H^2/L^2, where H = dipole height and L = wavelength), so that would be a 3dB drawback. But close to (a perfect) ground the radiation resistance should increase (double) again, and win the 3dB back. The main disadvantage would probably the relative low antenna capacitance, one would need a large loading coil (= large loss). But on the other hand a dipole could be less dependent on ground/environement conditions (not as much as a loop but better than a vertical monopole). I have been searching for articles on vertical dipoles on LF, but no result. So probably it isn't a good LF antenna, but I'd still like to know what it is worth. 73, Rik ON7YD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14560 invoked from network); 24 Jun 2002 19:45:26 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jun 2002 19:45:26 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 16526 invoked from network); 24 Jun 2002 19:44:42 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jun 2002 19:44:42 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MZgH-0004Lp-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 20:39:21 +0100 Received: from cmailenv4.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.56]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MZgF-0004Lk-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 20:39:20 +0100 Received: from [62.21.147.48] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV4.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17MZg7-00048O-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 19:39:12 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020624213657.009efe80@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 21:40:46 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: Picture of Hellschreiber MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE

Several amateurs have requested the picture of my Hellschreiber. I will send it to them by direct e-mail.

But I am pleased that Dave, G3YXM, has advised me that he has put the picture on his web site:
http://www.wireless.org.uk/. You find it on the opening page. Click on the red coloured part and you see the picture, together with screen shots of the signal of DF0WD and PA0SE.

When you want to read more about the history of the Hellschreiber I recommend visiting the web site of Murray Greenman, ZL1BPU: http://www.qsl.net/zl1bpu/FUZZY/History....  you find there everything there is to know about the system. Look under Feld-Hell in the index.

73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25787 invoked from network); 24 Jun 2002 17:32:12 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jun 2002 17:32:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 22109 invoked by uid 10001); 24 Jun 2002 17:36:13 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jun 2002 17:36:13 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MXYv-0003xz-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:23:37 +0100 Received: from orion.ozo.com ([212.70.193.242]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MXYt-0003xu-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:23:36 +0100 Received: from aurora.eexi.gr (aurora.eexi.gr [195.167.28.4]) by orion.ozo.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5OHKDJ08818 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 20:20:14 +0300 Received: from s9o9f0.eexi.gr (ppp52.dialup.eexi.gr [195.167.28.116]) by aurora.eexi.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5OHbfZ19052 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 20:37:41 +0300 Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020624195508.02a53430@aurora.eexi.gr> X-Sender: sv1xv@aurora.eexi.gr (Unverified) Disposition-Notification-To: X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 19:58:35 +0300 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Costas Krallis SV1XV" Subject: Re: LF: Feld-Hell on the 136kHz band In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020624142828.00a58660@POP3.freeler.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 15:51 24/6/2002 +0200, you wrote: > It is not possible to send a photograph of "my" Hellscheiber > via the Reflector. But I will send the picture by direct e-mail > to those who have reported my signal and to anybody else who > likes to receive it. Just drop me an e-mail. Hi Dick, I would like a copy of the photo please! Congratulations! 73 Costas SV1XV From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16552 invoked from network); 24 Jun 2002 17:19:03 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jun 2002 17:19:03 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 9495 invoked from network); 24 Jun 2002 17:18:33 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jun 2002 17:18:32 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MXLV-0003wC-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:09:45 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MXLT-0003w7-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:09:43 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17MXLQ-00019g-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:09:40 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17MXLP-0002Kk-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:09:39 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020624175301.00a80758@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:03:44 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: LF: Weekend activity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040600080106090905020400" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040600080106090905020400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear LF Group, Thanks to PA0SE for the transmissions from the vintage Hellschreiber machine - both transmissions were perfect copy here, using IZ8BLY's software. I was also able to get reasonable copy of DF0WD's Hell signals at times, up to about R4 in CW terms (see attachment for a snippet of both stations). Faint traces of Hell signal were also seen from DF6NM and DK8KW, but were not readable. It was certainly an occasion for a widely varied mixture of techniques and equipment, as seems to happen quite often on LF! Conditions were exceptionally good for summer time, with almost no QRN until Sunday afternoon. I had several other QSOs, including DN1VLF in QRSS, a new callsign to me, and also heard G3FYX in QSO with G3XDV. Roy's signal was quite weak but readable, about 549, but I did not try to call him because there seemed to be another QSO going on between some European stations on the same frequency. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU PS - I also found the reflector did not like having 2 images as attachments, even though they were quite small - hopefully, combining them into 1 file should do the trick. --------------040600080106090905020400 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="hell.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="hell.jpg" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAgGBgcGBQgHBwcJCQgKDBQNDAsLDBkSEw8UHRof Hh0aHBwgJC4nICIsIxwcKDcpLDAxNDQ0Hyc5PTgyPC4zNDL/2wBDAQkJCQwLDBgNDRgyIRwh MjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjL/wAAR CAB4Ab8DASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAHAAAAgMBAQEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYEBQcDAgEI/8QAPhAAAgIC AQMEAQMDAwEHAwMFAQIDBAUREgAGIRMUIjEHFTJBI1FhFjNCcRckJTRSgZEIQ1M2RWJjkrO1 8f/EABQBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD/xAAUEQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA/9oADAMBAAIR AxEAPwDX+5+9+3uzjV/Xsh7T3XL0f6MknLjrl+xTrXIff9+vmQ757YxdyhVvZyjBJfi9euzT Dg0ethy/7VU/wSQG+hs9Ln5e7hxmE7fpJZnqRZQ3YLWONqCR0V4Z42diUUkAKTvWiQSBveul 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mEdvT5HFY2LO8LF2snqTtC/FLExrGBySFBUH1JNaH9j4/b0dHQW02Nht+kWh9FoCnpMoXYUO jldeQASig/z4OteD13pV5asUkck/qgyu6EroqrHYX7863ofXgAfxsnR0H//Z --------------040600080106090905020400-- From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4135 invoked from network); 24 Jun 2002 14:39:36 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jun 2002 14:39:36 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 3482 invoked by uid 10001); 24 Jun 2002 14:43:22 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jun 2002 14:43:22 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MUwL-0003Sr-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:35:37 +0100 Received: from cmailenv3.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.55]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MUwK-0003Sm-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:35:36 +0100 Received: from [62.21.139.137] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV3.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17MUwD-0000on-00; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:35:30 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020624163505.00a64490@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:37:19 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: Feld-Hell on the 136kHz band Cc: "Bastiaan Edelman PA3FFZ" , "Cas Caspers" , "Cor Moerman, PA0VYL" , "Gerrit Jan Huijsman" , "Helmut Liebich, DL1OY" , "Jaap Kroon, PA0IF" , "Jan Harte" , "Koos Fockens, PA0KDF" , "Arthur Bauer, PA0AOB" , f2zi@amsat.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------060707030009060202080800" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060707030009060202080800 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As I found that the reflector had passed only one of the attachments here the message again with the second attachment.

To All from PA0SE,

Following my Feld-Hell transmissions on Saturday  22 June at 1300 UTC and Sunday 23 June at 0900 UTC I received reports by e-mail with screenshots of my transmissions from Alan, G3NYK; Ko, NL9222; Wolf, DL4YHF/DF0WD; Koos, PA0KDF; Geri, DK8KW, Mike, G3XDV and Jim, M0BMU. Many thanks to you all!

My Saturday transmission was answered in Hell by Markus, DF6NM and Wolf, DF0WD. Unfortunately the signal/noise ratio was too poor for readable print on the paper tape. Using CW they reported good copy of my Hell signals ("UFB"). Their CW was perfectly readable which shows that Hell is not a weak signal system!
Good reception was also reported in CW by Jim, M0BMU.

The Sunday transmission was answered in Hell by DF6NM, DF0WD and DK8KW. Again their signals were too weak for a useable print. But then Wolf, DF0WD, switched to a large font (a useful feature of the IZ8BLY software!) and then I became readable text on the paper tape: see attachment. I also attach a screenshot of my signal, as sent in by Ko, NL9222. Geri also switched to the large font but it helped not enough for readable print. Koos, PA0KDF, had readable text on the screen of Geri's signal. But he lives near the German border in a rural area. So he is much nearer to Geri than me and probably has a lower local noise level as well.

Now for some more detail on the 1944 Hellschreiber I use. It belongs to collector Arthur Bauer, PA0AOB and I have it on "permanent loan" since 1977, having used it for numerous QSO's on 20, 40 and 80 metres and now 2km.

As you can see in the screenshots the machine produces the line of text twice, one above the other. That is done to avoid the requirement of perfect synchronous running of the sending and receiving machine. When their speed differs the lines of text become slanting on the paper tape (can be seen  in the screenshot of NL9222) . But when the upper line disappears over the top the lower one is already coming up from the bottom. It took a genius like Dr. Rudolf Hell to devise such a simple way of avoiding the need of synchronism!
The Hellschreiber has a speed control. In practice one simply turns the control until the lines of text become horizontal.

The motor speed is controlled  by a centrifugal speed regulator, like the one invented by James Watt for the steam engine. But in the Hellschreiber the rotating mass does not work against gravity but against a spring. When the motor speed exceeds the wanted value the mass moves outwards  against the force of the spring and closes a contact. This causes an increase of the current through the field coils of the motor and the speed decreases until the contact opens again. The speed settles down at a value at which the contact periodically closes and opens. The small variations in speed are not noticeable. With the speed control knob the tension of the spring can be varied and with it the motor speed. The speed is controlled within very tight limits.
The current through the field coils is not directly controlled by the regulator contact but via a thermionic valve so the contact is not loaded by the current and does not  spark.
The motor also is also a dynamotor producing130V HT for the valves from the 12V DC supply.

It is not possible to send a photograph of "my" Hellscheiber via the Reflector. But I will send the picture by direct e-mail to those who have reported my signal and to anybody else who likes to receive it. Just drop me an e-mail.

I also wanted to send this report to Hell-promotor Murray Greenman, ZL1BPU. But my server reports the message cannot be delivered. Perhaps his e-mail address has been changed and it is not on his web site.
May I ask one of our New Zealand friends on the reflector to pass it on to Murray? Many thanks!

73, Dick, PA0SE
JO22GD
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Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jun 2002 14:18:38 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MUat-0003Oz-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:13:27 +0100 Received: from cmailenv3.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.55]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MUas-0003Ou-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:13:26 +0100 Received: from [62.21.146.88] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV3.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17MUak-0006Ge-00; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:13:19 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020624142828.00a58660@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:51:37 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: Feld-Hell on the 136kHz band Cc: "Bastiaan Edelman PA3FFZ" , "Cas Caspers" , "Cor Moerman, PA0VYL" , "Gerrit Jan Huijsman" , "Helmut Liebich, DL1OY" , "Jaap Kroon, PA0IF" , "Jan Harte" , "Koos Fockens, PA0KDF" , "Arthur Bauer, PA0AOB" , f2zi@amsat.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------070606040206090908070707" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070606040206090908070707 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE,

Following my Feld-Hell transmissions on Saturday  22 June at 1300 UTC and Sunday 23 June at 0900 UTC I received reports by e-mail with screenshots of my transmissions from Alan, G3NYK; Ko, NL9222; Wolf, DL4YHF/DF0WD; Koos, PA0KDF; Geri, DK8KW, Mike, G3XDV and Jim, M0BMU. Many thanks to you all!

My Saturday transmission was answered in Hell by Markus, DF6NM and Wolf, DF0WD. Unfortunately the signal/noise ratio was too poor for readable print on the paper tape. Using CW they reported good copy of my Hell signals ("UFB"). Their CW was perfectly readable which shows that Hell is not a weak signal system!
Good reception was also reported in CW by Jim, M0BMU.

The Sunday transmission was answered in Hell by DF6NM, DF0WD and DK8KW. Again their signals were too weak for a useable print. But then Wolf, DF0WD, switched to a large font (a useful feature of the IZ8BLY software!) and then I became readable text on the paper tape: see attachment. I also attach a screenshot of my signal, as sent in by Ko, NL9222. Geri also switched to the large font but it helped not enough for readable print. Koos, PA0KDF, had readable text on the screen of Geri's signal. But he lives near the German border in a rural area. So he is much nearer to Geri than me and probably has a lower local noise level as well.

Now for some more detail on the 1944 Hellschreiber I use. It belongs to collector Arthur Bauer, PA0AOB and I have it on "permanent loan" since 1977, having used it for numerous QSO's on 20, 40 and 80 metres and now 2km.

As you can see in the screenshots the machine produces the line of text twice, one above the other. That is done to avoid the requirement of perfect synchronous running of the sending and receiving machine. When their speed differs the lines of text become slanting on the paper tape (can be seen  in the screenshot of NL9222) . But when the upper line disappears over the top the lower one is already coming up from the bottom. It took a genius like Dr. Rudolf Hell to devise such a simple way of avoiding the need of synchronism!
The Hellschreiber has a speed control. In practice one simply turns the control until the lines of text become horizontal.

The motor speed is controlled  by a centrifugal speed regulator, like the one invented by James Watt for the steam engine. But in the Hellschreiber the rotating mass does not work against gravity but against a spring. When the motor speed exceeds the wanted value the mass moves outwards  against the force of the spring and closes a contact. This causes an increase of the current through the field coils of the motor and the speed decreases until the contact opens again. The speed settles down at a value at which the contact periodically closes and opens. The small variations in speed are not noticeable. With the speed control knob the tension of the spring can be varied and with it the motor speed. The speed is controlled within very tight limits.
The current through the field coils is not directly controlled by the regulator contact but via a thermionic valve so the contact is not loaded by the current and does not  spark.
The motor also is also a dynamotor producing130V HT for the valves from the 12V DC supply.

It is not possible to send a photograph of "my" Hellscheiber via the Reflector. But I will send the picture by direct e-mail to those who have reported my signal and to anybody else who likes to receive it. Just drop me an e-mail.

I also wanted to send this report to Hell-promotor Murray Greenman, ZL1BPU. But my server reports the message cannot be delivered. Perhaps his e-mail address has been changed and it is not on his web site.
May I ask one of our New Zealand friends on the reflector to pass it on to Murray? Many thanks!

73, Dick, PA0SE
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SpL5/bgl/HYGOmihRe6XKFNFAorh944Oq8bsnK4q0aGn7Bnkqa/GOmus+y1I5xybzjihQgk+ KEuOtS4NzwOjZA1tt9+GO+65FrPrV2zldrBqqXfEu2+///b7bMDp0/vewQ9HPPHEBR963nof f5RvxSenvHLLMwoIADs= --------------070606040206090908070707-- From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28311 invoked from network); 24 Jun 2002 10:41:33 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jun 2002 10:41:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 22774 invoked from network); 24 Jun 2002 10:41:10 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jun 2002 10:41:10 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MRDW-0002rf-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:37:06 +0100 Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.42]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MRDV-0002ra-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:37:05 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.104.106.63]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020624103704.MECL4626.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:37:04 +0100 Message-ID: <001901c21b6b$17e30600$d56668d5@oemcomputer> From: "mike.dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Activity correction Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:37:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: In my last message, I referred to not seeing the Hell from DF6NM. I should have said DF0WD. My apologies to both stations. Mike, G3XDV http://www.lf.thersgb.net ==================== From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9948 invoked from network); 24 Jun 2002 08:15:00 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 24 Jun 2002 08:15:00 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 13472 invoked from network); 24 Jun 2002 08:14:30 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 Jun 2002 08:14:30 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MOru-0002TR-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:06:38 +0100 Received: from ns3.swh.sk ([192.108.125.37]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MOrq-0002TG-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:06:37 +0100 Received: from hermes.swh.sk (hermes.swh.sk [192.108.125.60]) by ns3.swh.sk (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g5O86IG16349 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:06:22 +0200 Received: from btss101a.swh.sk (btss.swh.sk [139.24.136.15]) by hermes.swh.sk (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA10388 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:06:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by btss.swh.sk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:06:20 +0200 Message-ID: <29BDD4F529FCD311B631009027357C4E04D69B9B@btss103a.swh.sk> From: "Gasparik Richard" To: "Rsgb_Lf_Group \(E-mail\)" Subject: LF: First QSO from YU on LF... Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:06:17 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi LF-ers... First LF QSO from Yugoslavia. Teo YU7AR and Szigy YO2IS did it on sunday 23.6.2002 at 07.03Z on 136.5kHz (449/559). Teo has worked with 50W (with IRF630 TEFs) TX and 80m umbrella antena on the 35m high tower. His QTH is in KN05BW. Congrats !!! 73 de Rich OM2TW From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24528 invoked from network); 23 Jun 2002 22:34:42 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 23 Jun 2002 22:34:42 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 24250 invoked by uid 10001); 23 Jun 2002 22:38:43 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 Jun 2002 22:38:43 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MFpL-0001Aq-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 23:27:23 +0100 Received: from public.thorcom.com ([193.82.116.10] helo=public1.thorcom.com ident=[HP8v0qTCEpGEh+8/BVVwxuDCgJPfe8wU]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MFpK-0001Al-00 for RSGB_LF_GROUP@blacksheep.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 23:27:22 +0100 Received: from cs2416229-173.houston.rr.com ([24.162.29.173] helo=wia1) by public1.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17MFpJ-0000X3-00 for RSGB_LF_GROUP@BLACKSHEEP.ORG; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 23:27:21 +0100 From: "Ham Radio Market" To: RSGB_LF_GROUP@BLACKSHEEP.ORG Subject: LF: HAM RADIO MARKET ALPHA 87A AMPLIFIER REVIEW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 17:27:36 Message-ID: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender:

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From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1162 invoked from network); 23 Jun 2002 19:39:14 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 23 Jun 2002 19:39:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 3589 invoked from network); 23 Jun 2002 19:38:43 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 Jun 2002 19:38:43 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MD2H-0000le-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:28:33 +0100 Received: from smarthost1.mail.uk.easynet.net ([212.135.6.11]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MD2G-0000lZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:28:32 +0100 Received: from tnt-13-198.easynet.co.uk ([212.134.22.198] helo=erica) by smarthost1.mail.uk.easynet.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17MD2E-0003Nb-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:28:30 +0100 Message-ID: <001a01c21aed$8c18c4c0$c61686d4@erica> From: "g3ldo" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020620135447.009ee250@POP3.freeler.nl> Subject: LF: Re: Feld-Hell on the 136kHz Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:35:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >To All from PA0SE, >As recommended by Geri, DK8KW, I will use the frequency 137.400 kHz for the Feld-Hell transmissions. Dick's signal audible here in West Sussex in QSO with M0BMU on CW this Sunday morning. Nice signal from DF6NM at 1015GMT on QRSS3 Regards, Peter, G3LDO e-mail Web From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17177 invoked from network); 23 Jun 2002 19:32:54 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 23 Jun 2002 19:32:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 11501 invoked by uid 10001); 23 Jun 2002 19:36:39 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 Jun 2002 19:36:39 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MCve-0000kK-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:21:42 +0100 Received: from mta07-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.47]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MCvd-0000kF-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:21:42 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.104.100.166]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020623192139.JZBQ19225.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:21:39 +0100 Message-ID: <000701c21aeb$37713d00$a66468d5@oemcomputer> From: "mike.dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Activity 22/23 June Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:20:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: An interesting weekend with low QRN and quite a bit of activity. Highlights were: Giving G3FYX his first LF QSO. Roy is in Bristol and runs 240W to a very small loop - 20ft x 63ft - so he is quite weak. Please look out for him. Receiving my first Hell signals. I heard PA0SE's transmission so downloaded IK8BLY's software. Within seconds of installing the software I got perfect reception. Could not read DF6NM's transmission, though. A picture of PA0SE's Hell, a link to IK8BLY's software, and a log of what I have heard and worked over the past few weeks can be found on my web site. Mike, G3XDV http://www.lf.thersgb.net ==================== From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11747 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2002 20:12:59 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 22 Jun 2002 20:12:59 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 11757 invoked by uid 10001); 22 Jun 2002 20:16:46 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 Jun 2002 20:16:45 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Lr6o-0006PT-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2002 21:03:46 +0100 Received: from imo-d07.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.39]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Lr6n-0006PO-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2002 21:03:45 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.178.a27a3f0 (30972) for ; Sat, 22 Jun 2002 16:03:07 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <178.a27a3f0.2a4631fb@aol.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 16:03:07 EDT Subject: LF: PA0SE Feld-Hell copied 100% To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows XP DE sub 50 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hello Dick and the group,

Thanks for an interesting demonstration, and also for the info provided on air.
I had solid copy on PA0SE's machine-generated FELDHELL transmission, perfectly readable, but as already mentioned by Alan the images were a bit light (audio level into the soundcard perhaps a bit too low).

I called PA0SE using IZ8BLY's nice program several times but the <= 80mW ERP seem to be insufficient for this mode, which is definitely not a weak-signal mode despite its quite small bandwidth.

There are a few MBytes of screenshots from Markus' and Dick's HELL transmissions on the laptop now, if someone is interested I can put them on a website or mail them. Also very clear black and white "barcode" from Jim's overs in CW, very good readable.

After Dick went QRT, DF6NM and myself (at DF0WD) tried the "DX" mode of the IZ8BLY Hellschreiber which gives better readability because the letters have double width - but still ok to have a relatively fluent conversation.


Dick, you mentioned some photographs of your WW2-machine during your QSO with Jim - is it possible to send them to me, too ? - or will they be available on someone's website

Thanks in advance, and good luck for the test on sunday. Will try to call you again with the bold letters, maybe a HELL/HELL QSO is possible then.


Regards,
 Wolf
 DL4YHF / DF0WD . From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24877 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2002 13:56:39 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 22 Jun 2002 13:56:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 14639 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2002 13:56:15 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 Jun 2002 13:56:15 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17LlH8-0005dB-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2002 14:50:02 +0100 Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.81]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17LlH7-0005d6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2002 14:50:01 +0100 Received: from host213-122-226-239.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.226.239] helo=main) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17LlH5-0002ax-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2002 14:50:00 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c219f3$b61a00e0$efe27ad5@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: PA0SE in Feldhell Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 14:49:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Dick, nice copy from your transmission today. I will compress the screen shots and send you a copy (the bit-maps are a bit big) direct. I have not worked out why the contrast is a little low. Maybe it is the signal-to-noise, I am using an SSB bandwidth and have some TV interference higher in frequency. I think I could just hear the signal from Wolf in the noise (and possible some elements on the waterfall) but there was no copy on screen. I dont think my present short aerial is as good as the longer one. Your description of the typing technique reminds me of the days I used to send RTTY on a Creed 7B. It was possible to beat the keyboard occasionally on that when it would lock solid, and you would have to release the key and press again. I learned to type with a steady slow cadence that kept the rotor turning without allowing the keyboard to lock on me........ I still made typos of course!! I wont be around for your transmission tomorrow as I have another local rally, a few miles up the road that I will be attending. Thanks and Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9265 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2002 13:49:09 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 22 Jun 2002 13:49:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 17224 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2002 13:48:40 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 Jun 2002 13:48:40 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Ll9D-0005c3-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2002 14:41:51 +0100 Received: from 1149.cust.skynetweb.com ([208.231.4.134] helo=mail.salmark.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Ll9C-0005by-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2002 14:41:50 +0100 Received: from [217.8.26.253] (helo=google.com) by mail.salmark.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Ll99-0000tx-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2002 09:41:48 -0400 From: "Farmgirl15332" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Real ZOO web site, welcome! ID X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.53d) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 17:44:54 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-2 Status: R X-Status: N X-Set: uvjeboibjurxsCeodfnvkhhs1ruj@17725 Message-ID: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: The BEST zoo site on the @net!
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From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 892 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2002 09:22:56 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 22 Jun 2002 09:22:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 12621 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2002 09:22:32 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 Jun 2002 09:22:32 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Lh1w-000566-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:18:04 +0100 Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz ([203.109.252.8] ident=mail) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Lh1u-000561-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:18:02 +0100 Received: from p42-max12.chc.ihug.co.nz (athlon) [203.173.226.170] by smtp2.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 17Lh1a-0001gk-00; Sat, 22 Jun 2002 21:17:43 +1200 Message-ID: <01bc01c219cd$afdb2540$0101a8c0@athlon> From: "Dave Brown" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <62.2183761c.2a45723b@aol.com> Subject: Re: LF: More Info? - Re: Strange signals on 25 Hz (!) - any info ? Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 21:17:51 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
From Cesare I5TGC:
> The Signal you receive is like a telephon call, some old systems use a 25 Hz a.c.
> with one second duration and 4 seconds space. Nevertheless it is very difficult
> that these signals can reach your receiver.
 
Not difficult to hear if someone has a PABX not far from the ELF antenna- and the bigger the antenna then probably the further away it can be.
I can hear the ringing from my own PABX (with a similar mark/space ratio to that described) from ELF all the way up through most of the HF range on a variety of antennas and receivers.
73
 Dave
ZL3FJ
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4973 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2002 06:31:56 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 22 Jun 2002 06:31:56 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 20519 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2002 06:31:26 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 Jun 2002 06:31:26 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17LeL3-0004ln-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2002 07:25:37 +0100 Received: from imo-r06.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.102]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17LeL2-0004li-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2002 07:25:36 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.62.2183761c (17528); Sat, 22 Jun 2002 02:24:59 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <62.2183761c.2a45723b@aol.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 02:24:59 EDT Subject: Re: LF: More Info? - Re: Strange signals on 25 Hz (!) - any info ? To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, lf@amrad.org, rromero@tiscalinet.it MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows XP DE sub 50 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hello Cesare, Bill and group,

From WD8ARZ:
> Could those that are hearing
> these signals please comment on the locations
> where they are receiving from?
> Also what kind of receiver and antenna system if you dont mind.

The signal was clearly received in nothern Italy. At my own QTH in northern DL, there are some occasional traces at 25 Hz but they are too weak to be identified as 1-second dots and 4-second gaps, but I am only monitoring ELF and VLF occasionally.
Renato (IK1QFK) received the strange signal with a marconi antenna, can be considered an active E-field probe at these frequencies. Antenna details can be found at his VLF OpenLab community's site which is:
    http://www.vlf.it/  


From Cesare I5TGC:
> The Signal you receive is like a telephon call, some old systems use a 25 Hz a.c.
> with one second duration and 4 seconds space. Nevertheless it is very difficult
> that these signals can reach your receiver.
Thanks Cesare for this interesting info. I will pass it on and ask Renato if he has one of those wonderful old open-wire telegraph lines in line-of-sight ... maybe some private railroad company still use them.

Regards,
 Wolf  DL4YHF.

From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20950 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2002 05:57:58 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 22 Jun 2002 05:57:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 4703 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2002 05:57:28 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 Jun 2002 05:57:28 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17LdnC-0004fD-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2002 06:50:38 +0100 Received: from mail2.dada.it ([195.110.96.69] helo=mail.dada.it) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17LdnA-0004f8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2002 06:50:37 +0100 Received: (qmail 31786 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2002 05:50:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cestag) (195.110.102.69) by mail.dada.it with SMTP; 22 Jun 2002 05:50:02 -0000 Message-ID: <002601c219b0$7de826e0$45666ec3@cestag> From: "cesare tagliabue" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <1ab.3fdfee5.2a44bcd0@aol.com> Subject: LF: R: Strange signals on 25 Hz (!) - any info ? Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 07:48:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
    Hello Wolf
        The Signal you receive is like a telephon call, some old systems use a 25 Hz a.c. with one second duration and 4 seconds space. Nevertheless it is very difficult that these signals can reach your receiver. Hope someone has better suggestions,  73  Cesare
 
Cesare Tagliabue   I 5 TGC
WW-Loc  JN53PS
e-mail: cestag@dada.it
url: http://www.dadacasa.com/i5tgc
-----Messaggio Originale-----
Data invio: venerdì 21 giugno 2002 19.30
Oggetto: LF: Strange signals on 25 Hz (!) - any info ?

Hello Group,

Has anyone of this group ever heard about signals in the range of 25 Hz, like this:

- a few pulses of about one second length each, about 4 seconds pause between them
- transmitted irregularly, sometimes not present for days or weeks
- obviously NOT related to the mains line, no harmonics or images at 50 and 75 Hz etc
- seem NOT to travel through the mains line.

The following is quoted from Renato Romero:

>>>Hi Wolf,
about that strange signal at 25 Hz: I receive that signal since 1997, when I started with regular reception below 50Hz thanks a circuit of IK1ODO with OP07 op amplifier and a big T marconi antenna. Those strange dots appear sometimes, not always at the same time, and not always in the same form: sometimes there are one o two dots, sometimes there are 13 dots or more. They disappear for many days, then appear again with a not regular schedule.
About the origin: agree with you about the not natural origin, is clear; but what they really are ... it's a mystery.
They are not inducted by main power lines because they are not present in the reception with a big horizontal loop (30m x 30m, 3 turns), instead of the signals on the electric line at 1024Hz, present on air and very strong in horizontal polarization.
They are not caused by not linear loads on the electric line: that signals appear like a mirror with 50Hz (and 150Hz, 250Hz...): in this case there is no signal at 75 Hz.
<<<

Any ideas ? Another submarine "wakeup" transmitter ?

73, Wolf



P.S. Looking forward to Dick's Feldhell transmission. Will try to answer in that mode, but I few its not really suited for my low-power signal - so possibly will reply in CW.


P.P.S. Walter DJ2LF will hold his LF talk at the Ham Radio fair in Friedrichshaven on Friday June 28, after 16:00 local in hall 2, room "C", after an introduction by DL1VDL. .... at least, this is written in the german CQ DL magazine. They warn about "problems with the parking space" this year and ask visitors to use the shuttle bus. Hope to meet you there !


From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15222 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2002 22:50:09 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 21 Jun 2002 22:50:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 9550 invoked by uid 10001); 21 Jun 2002 22:54:08 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 21 Jun 2002 22:54:07 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17LX8o-0003kH-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 21 Jun 2002 23:44:30 +0100 Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net ([207.69.200.25]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17LX8n-0003kC-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 21 Jun 2002 23:44:29 +0100 Received: from 216-40-174-132.rochester.tir.com ([216.40.174.132] helo=wfs) by barry.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17LX8i-0005xZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 21 Jun 2002 18:44:24 -0400 Message-ID: <00a601c21975$32e60a80$0300a8c0@wfs> From: "WD8ARZ" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: More Info? - Re: Strange signals on 25 Hz (!) - any info ? Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 18:44:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: A friend of mine had some interesting comments. Could those that are hearing these signals please comment on the locations where they are receiving from? Also what kind of receiver and antenna system if you dont mind. This has generated some real interest. Thanks 73 from Bill - WD8ARZ wd8arz@ix.netcom.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leslie" To: "'Mike Miller'" ; "WD8ARZ" Cc: "ROBERT M. SCHULTZ" ; "'starrmorgan'" ; "Wayne Erickson" Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 16:30 Subject: RE: Fw: Strange signals on 25 Hz (!) - any info ? 25 HZ is the frequency of the electric rail lines. Penn Central had a lot of 25 HZ lines in operation until they tore down most of the over head lines and went all diesel back in the 70's. They used to modulate the 'hi-lines' for track signals and even communications to the engines. The engine communication was before a lot of VHF radios were installed. Where do these people who are picking this up live? If near any type of AC rail line of the old style with the over head lines, chances are they are hearing that carrier with control signal modulation. If they are far away then it is something else, maybe sub commands or who knows. I guess I'll have to fire up a amp with low frequency response and see what is out there. If I hear anything then it is being transmitted through the air and not on rail hi-lines. I'm going to be heading to Dulce shortly. The road was open the last I checked so it will be a 7 to 8 hour trip. After I finish this mail, I'll be QRT here. I have the HF rig with me and will come up on 18.153 if I get a chance. Leslie From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17732 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2002 22:28:31 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 21 Jun 2002 22:28:31 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 10482 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2002 22:28:01 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 21 Jun 2002 22:28:01 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17LWmi-0003g0-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 21 Jun 2002 23:21:40 +0100 Received: from imo-d02.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.34]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17LWmh-0003fv-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 21 Jun 2002 23:21:39 +0100 Received: from G0MRF@aol.com by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.168.f77d307 (3997) for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2002 18:21:01 -0400 (EDT) From: G0MRF@aol.com Message-ID: <168.f77d307.2a4500cd@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 18:21:01 EDT Subject: LF: HF Convention. New location To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows UK sub 10512 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit The Owners of the Beaumont Centre at Windsor have cancelled the RSGB's reservation for the HF Convention in October.

A new location within the same area has been found and details should be available soon.

Hopefully the 'noise level' on LF at the new location will be lower, enabling us to hear something other than S9 signals.

73

David  G0MRF From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24236 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2002 17:35:34 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 21 Jun 2002 17:35:34 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 13763 invoked by uid 10001); 21 Jun 2002 17:39:31 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 21 Jun 2002 17:39:31 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17LSG3-00034f-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 21 Jun 2002 18:31:39 +0100 Received: from imo-r02.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.98]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17LSG2-00034a-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 21 Jun 2002 18:31:38 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id l.1ab.3fdfee5 (3850) for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:30:56 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <1ab.3fdfee5.2a44bcd0@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:30:56 EDT Subject: LF: Strange signals on 25 Hz (!) - any info ? To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows XP DE sub 50 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hello Group,

Has anyone of this group ever heard about signals in the range of 25 Hz, like this:

- a few pulses of about one second length each, about 4 seconds pause between them
- transmitted irregularly, sometimes not present for days or weeks
- obviously NOT related to the mains line, no harmonics or images at 50 and 75 Hz etc
- seem NOT to travel through the mains line.

The following is quoted from Renato Romero:

>>>Hi Wolf,
about that strange signal at 25 Hz: I receive that signal since 1997, when I started with regular reception below 50Hz thanks a circuit of IK1ODO with OP07 op amplifier and a big T marconi antenna. Those strange dots appear sometimes, not always at the same time, and not always in the same form: sometimes there are one o two dots, sometimes there are 13 dots or more. They disappear for many days, then appear again with a not regular schedule.
About the origin: agree with you about the not natural origin, is clear; but what they really are ... it's a mystery.
They are not inducted by main power lines because they are not present in the reception with a big horizontal loop (30m x 30m, 3 turns), instead of the signals on the electric line at 1024Hz, present on air and very strong in horizontal polarization.
They are not caused by not linear loads on the electric line: that signals appear like a mirror with 50Hz (and 150Hz, 250Hz...): in this case there is no signal at 75 Hz.
<<<

Any ideas ? Another submarine "wakeup" transmitter ?

73, Wolf



P.S. Looking forward to Dick's Feldhell transmission. Will try to answer in that mode, but I few its not really suited for my low-power signal - so possibly will reply in CW.


P.P.S. Walter DJ2LF will hold his LF talk at the Ham Radio fair in Friedrichshaven on Friday June 28, after 16:00 local in hall 2, room "C", after an introduction by DL1VDL. .... at least, this is written in the german CQ DL magazine. They warn about "problems with the parking space" this year and ask visitors to use the shuttle bus. Hope to meet you there !


From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28405 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2002 14:57:59 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 20 Jun 2002 14:57:59 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 3930 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2002 14:57:33 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 Jun 2002 14:57:33 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17L3Gt-00080A-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:50:51 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17L3Gs-000805-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:50:50 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17L3Gq-0003Fv-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:50:48 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17L3Gp-0006mc-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:50:48 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020620154542.00b0ecd8@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:50:31 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: Feld-Hell on the 136kHz band coming weekend In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020620135447.009ee250@POP3.freeler.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Dick, LF Group, At 13:56 20/06/2002 +0200, you wrote: >It is my intention to make a transmission in Feldhell on Saturday 22 June >at 1300 UTC and Sunday 23 June at 0900 UTC. I Dear Dick, Will be watching out for your signals - I have software to receive Feldhell via a sound card, but no TX hardware for this mode, so will respond in CW. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28378 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2002 12:15:17 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 20 Jun 2002 12:15:17 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 1523 invoked by uid 10001); 20 Jun 2002 12:19:13 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 Jun 2002 12:19:12 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17L0cv-0007an-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:01:25 +0100 Received: from cmailenv2.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.54]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17L0cu-0007ai-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:01:24 +0100 Received: from [62.21.144.213] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV2.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17L0co-0001Lv-00; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:01:20 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020620135447.009ee250@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:56:49 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: Feld-Hell on the 136kHz band coming weekend Cc: "Bastiaan Edelman PA3FFZ" , "Cas Caspers" , "Cor Moerman, PA0VYL" , "Gerrit Jan Huijsman" , "Helmut Liebich, DL1OY" , "Jaap Kroon, PA0IF" , "Jan Harte" , "Koos Fockens, PA0KDF" , "Arthur Bauer, PA0AOB" , f2zi@amsat.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE,

As recommended by Geri, DK8KW, I will use the frequency 137.400 kHz for the Feld-Hell transmissions.

73, Dick, PA0SE




It is my intention to make a transmission in Feldhell on Saturday 22 June at 1300 UTC and Sunday 23 June at 0900 UTC. I will be using an original German World War II Hellschreiber ("Feldfernschreiber") made in 1944.

The transmission will start with some minutes of the "pause signal" that the machine can send. It will be followed by some lines of text. After the transmission I will listen for replies in Feldhell or in CW. Reports via the Reflector are also welcome of course.

My question is what will be an appropriate frequency for the test? 137kHz?

Sending by Feldfernschreiber is not easy and requires some training. The machine dictates the transmission speed of 2.5 char/s and the operator has to achieve that by typing at a constant and precise rhythm.
When you want to send a character a finger is lightly put on the key for that character. But the key cannot be depressed because the machine prevents that. When the proper moment for sending arrives the key is released and it moves down under pressure of the finger. It is then important to immediately put a finger on the key for the next character. When you wait too long the proper moment has been lost and you have to wait for the next turn. Because the paper tape moves on continuously a space appears instead of the character you wanted.
One would think there is no need for a space key because a space is produced automatically as long as no keys are depressed. Nevertheless a space key is present on the keyboard!
I assume that is done so that the operator can type at a constant rate without any interruption. In Germany this type of typing is called Taktgeben.
Another difficulty in operating the Feldfernschreiber is that the keys for the Y and Z have changed places (QWERTZ instead of QWERTY). 
I have been using the machine in numerous Hell QSO's on 40 and 80 since 1977, but I still produce typos and unwanted spaces.
The keyboard has keys for letters A ...Z, numerals 0...9 and for /, ?, + and -. In addition keys for the pause signal and for sending morse code.

For more about the Feldfernschreiber you can visit the website of Murray Greenman, ZL1BPU: http://www.qsl.net/zl1bpu/; next select "Feldhell".
You also find software there that can convert a PC with soundcard into a Feldfernschreiber.

I now use a transmitter that was made by Harry Grimbergen, PA0LQ. Harry used the TX himself on LF until the manager of the apartment building in which Harry lives on the top (12th) floor forbade him stringing an aerial.
Harry sends greetings to all who have worked him in the past on the 136kHz band.

The transmitter is VFO controlled and has in the final amplifier four tetrodes PL519 in parallel. At a DC input of 0.95A x 520V = 494W they produce about 320W output.

I am looking forward to some Hell QSO's on LF.
 From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6894 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2002 06:33:25 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 20 Jun 2002 06:33:25 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 12682 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2002 06:32:53 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 Jun 2002 06:32:53 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17KvOF-0006sW-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 07:25:55 +0100 Received: from siaag2ae.compuserve.com ([149.174.40.135]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17KvOD-0006sR-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 07:25:54 +0100 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by siaag2ae.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.12) id CAA23664 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 02:25:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 02:24:57 -0400 From: "Holger 'Geri' Kinzel, DK8KW" Subject: LF: Feldhell on the 136kHz band coming weekend To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: <200206200225_MC3-1-31E-8CCF@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello Dick, I would love to have a QSO with you in Feld-Hell, however, I will use some pretty modern technology, either PC-based generated Hell or using the Motorola modem. I suggest you transmit on 137.400 kHz, that is where most of the other Hell and PSK31 etc. so far took place. Best 73 Geri, DK8KW (W1KW) From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2465 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2002 19:59:04 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 19 Jun 2002 19:59:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 14473 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2002 19:58:33 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 Jun 2002 19:58:33 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17KlW5-0005Pt-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 19 Jun 2002 20:53:21 +0100 Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz ([210.86.15.131]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17KlW4-0005Po-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 19 Jun 2002 20:53:20 +0100 Received: from xtr743187 ([202.27.178.21]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20020619195243.FPXP28149.mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz@xtr743187> for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 07:52:43 +1200 Message-ID: <002501c217cb$686a6bc0$62b21bca@xtr743187> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619164718.009e8330@POP3.freeler.nl> Subject: LF: ZL6QH tests postponed Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 07:45:52 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hi all,
 
I earlier advised that ZL6QH would be transmitting on 137 kHz on Saturday 22 June.  Various constraints have arisen and consequently the test this coming weekend is postponed.  Possible dates are 17 August and/or 21 September.
 
73, Bob ZL2CA
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2147 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2002 17:50:31 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 19 Jun 2002 17:50:31 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 1052 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2002 17:49:58 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 Jun 2002 17:49:57 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17KjSF-00059f-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 19 Jun 2002 18:41:15 +0100 Received: from cmailenv2.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.54]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17KjSE-00059a-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 19 Jun 2002 18:41:14 +0100 Received: from [62.21.151.146] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV2.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17KjSA-0001ty-00; Wed, 19 Jun 2002 17:41:10 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619164718.009e8330@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 19:42:48 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: Feldhell on the 136kHz band coming weekend Cc: "Bastiaan Edelman PA3FFZ" , "Cas Caspers" , "Cor Moerman, PA0VYL" , "Gerrit Jan Huijsman" , "Helmut Liebich, DL1OY" , "Jaap Kroon, PA0IF" , "Jan Harte" , "Koos Fockens, PA0KDF" , "Arthur Bauer, PA0AOB" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Dear OM,

It is my intention to make a transmission in Feldhell on Saturday 22 June at 1300 UTC and Sunday 23 June at 0900 UTC. I will be using an original German World War II Hellschreiber ("Feldfernschreiber") made in 1944.

The transmission will start with some minutes of the "pause signal" that the machine can send. It will be followed by some lines of text. After the transmission I will listen for replies in Feldhell or in CW. Reports via the Reflector are also welcome of course.

My question is what will be an appropriate frequency for the test? 137kHz?

Sending by Feldfernschreiber is not easy and requires some training. The machine dictates the transmission speed of 2.5 char/s and the operator has to achieve that by typing at a constant and precise rhythm.
When you want to send a character a finger is lightly put on the key for that character. But the key cannot be depressed because the machine prevents that. When the proper moment for sending arrives the key is released and it moves down under pressure of the finger. It is then important to immediately put a finger on the key for the next character. When you wait too long the proper moment has been lost and you have to wait for the next turn. Because the paper tape moves on continuously a space appears instead of the character you wanted.
One would think there is no need for a space key because a space is produced automatically as long as no keys are depressed. Nevertheless a space key is present on the keyboard!
I assume that is done so that the operator can type at a constant rate without any interruption. In Germany this type of typing is called Taktgeben.
Another difficulty in operating the Feldfernschreiber is that the keys for the Y and Z have changed places (QWERTZ instead of QWERTY). 
I have been using the machine in numerous Hell QSO's on 40 and 80 since 1977, but I still produce typos and unwanted spaces.
The keyboard has keys for letters A ...Z, numerals 0...9 and for /, ?, + and -. In addition keys for the pause signal and for sending morse code.

For more about the Feldfernschreiber you can visit the website of Murray Greenman, ZL1BPU: http://www.qsl.net/zl1bpu/; next select "Feldhell".
You also find software there that can convert a PC with soundcard into a Feldfernschreiber.

I now use a transmitter that was made by Harry Grimbergen, PA0LQ. Harry used the TX himself on LF until the manager of the apartment building in which Harry lives on the top (12th) floor forbade him stringing an aerial.
Harry sends greetings to all who have worked him in the past on the 136kHz band.

The transmitter is VFO controlled and has in the final amplifier four tetrodes PL519 in parallel. At a DC input of 0.95A x 520V = 494W they produce about 320W output.

I am looking forward to some Hell QSO's on LF.

73, Dick, PA0SE
JO22GD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6503 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2002 08:02:29 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 19 Jun 2002 08:02:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 24805 invoked by uid 10001); 19 Jun 2002 08:06:17 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 Jun 2002 08:06:17 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17KaM5-0003tq-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 19 Jun 2002 08:58:17 +0100 Received: from carbon.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.92] helo=carbon) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17KaM4-0003tl-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 19 Jun 2002 08:58:16 +0100 Received: from host213-1-81-120.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.1.81.120] helo=dave) by carbon with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17KaM2-0004UN-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 19 Jun 2002 08:58:15 +0100 Message-ID: <001b01c21767$726e5960$785101d5@dave> From: "Dave Sergeant" To: "rsgb_lf_group" Subject: LF: Loop update Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 08:57:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I have updated the loops pages on my website (http://www.dsergeant.btinternet.co.uk/loops.htm) with new information supplied by Mike G3LHZ, and would appreciate comments. It seems activity on 136 is at an all time low. I put out several calls on Saturday morning with no results, though I did hear Dick PA0SE calling several times (sorry Dick, I know my loop doesn't quite reach you!!). But nothing else was heard at all. It may be that some were occupied elsewhere (my spies tell me some chaps were kicking a ball around somewhere), but one can only hope activity will increase again soon. 73s Dave G3YMC dsergeant@iee.org dsergeant@btinternet.com http://www.dsergeant.btinternet.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 838 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2002 07:23:26 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 19 Jun 2002 07:23:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 11008 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2002 07:23:00 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 Jun 2002 07:23:00 -0000 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17KZey-0003o8-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 19 Jun 2002 08:13:44 +0100 Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.93]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17KZex-0003o3-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 19 Jun 2002 08:13:43 +0100 Received: from host213-122-155-63.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.155.63] helo=presario-1920) by rhenium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17KZeu-0003nf-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 19 Jun 2002 08:13:41 +0100 From: "John W Gould" To: "Rsgb_Lf_Group@Blacksheep.Org" Subject: LF: ARLB035 FCC Invites Public Comments on New Amateur Band Proposals Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 08:15:08 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: For info for those who haven't already seen this on the ARRL website. 73 John, G3WKL -----Original Message----- From: ARRL Web site [mailto:memberlist@www.arrl.org] Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 19:47 To: g3wkl@btinternet.com Cc: Subscribed ARRL Members: ; Subject: ARLB035 FCC Invites Public Comments on New Amateur Band Proposals SB QST @ ARL $ARLB035 ARLB035 FCC Invites Public Comments on New Amateur Band Proposals ZCZC AG35 QST de W1AW ARRL Bulletin 35 ARLB035 >>From ARRL Headquarters Newington CT June 18, 2002 To all radio amateurs SB QST ARL ARLB035 ARLB035 FCC Invites Public Comments on New Amateur Band Proposals Public comments on FCC proposals to create two new amateur bands and to create a new Amateur Service primary allocation in the vicinity of 2.4 GHz are due July 29, and reply comments are due by August 12. In response to an ARRL petition, the FCC last month released a Notice of Proposed Rule Making (ET Docket 02-98) that proposed to create a new 5-MHz HF allocation and a new low-frequency band in the vicinity of 136 kHz in addition to elevating amateurs from secondary to primary at 2400 to 2402 MHz. The FCC adopted the NPRM May 2 on a unanimous vote. The NPRM was published June 14 in The Federal Register. A copy of the petition is available on the ARRL Web site, http://www.arrl.org/announce/regulatory/et02-98/ . Interested parties may file comments via the FCC's Electronic Comment Filing System (ECFS) website, http://www.fcc.gov/e-file/ecfs.html . Click on ''Search for Filed Comments'' and enter ''02-98'' in the ''Proceeding'' field. All comments and other correspondence--plus a copy of the NPRM--are available for viewing via the ECFS. If the proposals eventually are approved, amateurs would gain a new, secondary, domestic (US-only) HF allocation at 5.25 to 5.40 MHz and a new LF ''sliver band'' at 135.7 to 137.8 kHz. The 5 MHz band would be the first new HF allocation since the early 1980s, when amateurs got 30, 17 and 12 meters. The LF allocation would be the first ever for US hams. The Commission has recommended permitting amateurs to operate at full legal limit on a new 5-MHz allocation, but it left open for further discussion whether to restrict band access to certain license classes. The FCC also has invited further comment on whether the band should be broken down into mode-specific subbands. The band 5.250 to 5.450 MHz now is allocated worldwide to Fixed and Mobile services on a co-primary basis. On 136 kHz, the FCC has proposed limiting output to 1 W effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) with a transmission bandwidth of only 100 Hz and limiting access to the band to General and higher-class licensees. NNNN /EX From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13451 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2002 16:54:51 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 17 Jun 2002 16:54:51 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 10252 invoked by uid 10001); 17 Jun 2002 16:58:42 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 Jun 2002 16:58:42 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Jzew-0007mf-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 17:47:18 +0100 Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.84]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Jzev-0007ma-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 17:47:17 +0100 Received: from user-1120mj8.dsl.mindspring.com ([66.32.90.104] helo=n4xy.earthlink.net) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17JzeK-0006Gf-00; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 09:46:40 -0700 Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020617124128.00afa960@pop.earthlink.net> X-Sender: n4xy@pop.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:46:38 -0400 To: lowfer@mailman.qth.net, rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Ed Tanton" Subject: LF: Re: Scientific Atlanta GPD-111 In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020617121621.00ac5770@gemini.herts.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Folks... I was just wondering if anyone else has run into one of these, since I'm still looking for a manual, and have antenna questions. Mine can be seen near the bottom of the page at URL: .Thanks. 73 Ed Tanton N4XY Ed Tanton N4XY 189 Pioneer Trail Marietta, GA 30068-3466 website: http://www.n4xy.com All emails & checked by Norton AntiVirus with AutoProtect LM: ARRL QCWA AMSAT & INDEXA; SEDXC NCDXA GACW QRP-ARCI OK-QRP QRP-L #758 K2 (FT) #00057 From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2666 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2002 15:57:08 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 17 Jun 2002 15:57:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 21555 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2002 15:56:33 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 Jun 2002 15:56:33 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17JyXL-0007bK-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:35:23 +0100 Received: from moutvdom01.kundenserver.de ([195.20.224.200]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17JyXJ-0007bF-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:35:21 +0100 Received: from [195.20.224.204] (helo=mrvdom00.kundenserver.de) by moutvdom01.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 17JyXA-0006wc-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 17:35:12 +0200 Received: from p3e9e9ca8.dip.t-dialin.net ([62.158.156.168] helo=diolog.de) by mrvdom00.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 17JyX9-0003nE-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 17:35:11 +0200 Message-ID: <000e01c21614$39745f00$0201a8c0@parentes> From: "fk" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000201c2160f$0360ef00$740c073e@main> Subject: LF: Re: Re: Is this reflector working ? Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 17:32:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi, QRN was S9++ when I listened to 136 kHz on saturday afternoon, so I went to the other bands quickly.. Hope for less QRN on next weekend .. 73, Fabian dj1yfk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Melia" To: Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 2:53 PM Subject: LF: Re: Is this reflector working ? > Yup its working....only the inhabitants of 136 that have migrated > somewhere..... the band seemed very quiet when I listened on Saturday too. > > Cheers de Alan G3NYK > alan.melia@btinternet.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Talbot Andrew > To: LF Group (E-mail) > Date: 17 June 2002 12:12 > Subject: LF: Is this reflector working ? > > > >Nothing over the weekend at all. > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18674 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2002 15:43:43 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 17 Jun 2002 15:43:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 5205 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2002 15:43:16 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 Jun 2002 15:43:16 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17JyXW-0007bR-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:35:34 +0100 Received: from irwell.zetnet.co.uk ([194.247.47.48] helo=zetnet.co.uk ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17JyXV-0007bM-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:35:33 +0100 Received: from a7j7r2 (man-c052.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.42.52]) by zetnet.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g5HFZUn29852 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:35:30 +0100 Message-ID: <000801c21614$832e45c0$342af7c2@a7j7r2> From: "John Rabson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000201c2160f$0360ef00$740c073e@main> Subject: LF: Re: Re: Is this reflector working ? Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:34:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Melia" > .... the band seemed very quiet when I listened on Saturday too. Especially between 11.30 and 13.30 UTC. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26503 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2002 15:02:48 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 17 Jun 2002 15:02:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 7314 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2002 15:02:16 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 Jun 2002 15:02:16 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Jxui-0007UE-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 15:55:28 +0100 Received: from carbon.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.92] helo=carbon) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Jxuh-0007U9-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 15:55:27 +0100 Received: from host62-7-12-116.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.7.12.116] helo=main) by carbon with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17Jxuf-0003z5-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 15:55:25 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c2160f$0360ef00$740c073e@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: Is this reflector working ? Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:53:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Yup its working....only the inhabitants of 136 that have migrated somewhere..... the band seemed very quiet when I listened on Saturday too. Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com -----Original Message----- From: Talbot Andrew To: LF Group (E-mail) Date: 17 June 2002 12:12 Subject: LF: Is this reflector working ? >Nothing over the weekend at all. > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29070 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2002 13:08:23 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 17 Jun 2002 13:08:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 2811 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2002 13:07:45 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 Jun 2002 13:07:45 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Jw9z-0007Gt-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:03:07 +0100 Received: from irwell.zetnet.co.uk ([194.247.47.48] helo=zetnet.co.uk ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Jw9y-0007Go-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:03:06 +0100 Received: from a7j7r2 (man-c045.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.42.45]) by zetnet.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g5HD34n15865 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:03:04 +0100 Message-ID: <003c01c215ff$37c200a0$2d2af7c2@a7j7r2> From: "John Rabson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020617121621.00ac5770@gemini.herts.ac.uk> Subject: LF: Re: Old LF D/F Receiver Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:02:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Would it help to have the pinouts for the valves? If so, send me a list of types and I will see what I can do. 73 de G3PAI, John Rabson ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Moritz" To: ; Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 12:44 PM Subject: LF: Old LF D/F Receiver > Dear LF Group, Lowfers > > I recently bought a WWII vintage LF and MF receiver, which according to the > label was "part of aircraft direction finder DZ-1", type CRV-46123, > apparently made by RCA. Does anyone have any info on this RX? > > It covers 15kHz to 1.5MHz in 6 bands, with a gap from 70kHz to 100kHz, so I > imagine the IF is 85kHz. It has a 5 gang tuning capacitor, with separate > input stages for loop and wire antennas, and facilities to select either or > both antennas for non-directional, directional, or "unilateral" reception, > with various gain and phase adjustments. The audio stages appear to have > tuned transformers to improve selectivity. The valves are glass types, > mainly on 6 pin bases. The tuning dial has main and vernier scales giving > 0-1000 divisions, and there is a calibration chart on the front panel. > > It is simple enough to get working without a manual, but I would be > interested if anyone knows more about it. > > Cheers, Jim Moritz > 73 de M0BMU > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25132 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2002 11:48:32 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 17 Jun 2002 11:48:32 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 886 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2002 11:47:54 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 Jun 2002 11:47:54 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17JuwU-00075A-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:45:06 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17JuwT-000754-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:45:05 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17JuwR-00048t-00; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:45:03 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17JuwM-00032i-00; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:44:58 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020617121621.00ac5770@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:44:43 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, lowfer@mailman.qth.net From: "James Moritz" Subject: LF: Old LF D/F Receiver MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF Group, Lowfers I recently bought a WWII vintage LF and MF receiver, which according to the label was "part of aircraft direction finder DZ-1", type CRV-46123, apparently made by RCA. Does anyone have any info on this RX? It covers 15kHz to 1.5MHz in 6 bands, with a gap from 70kHz to 100kHz, so I imagine the IF is 85kHz. It has a 5 gang tuning capacitor, with separate input stages for loop and wire antennas, and facilities to select either or both antennas for non-directional, directional, or "unilateral" reception, with various gain and phase adjustments. The audio stages appear to have tuned transformers to improve selectivity. The valves are glass types, mainly on 6 pin bases. The tuning dial has main and vernier scales giving 0-1000 divisions, and there is a calibration chart on the front panel. It is simple enough to get working without a manual, but I would be interested if anyone knows more about it. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20514 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2002 11:39:47 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 17 Jun 2002 11:39:47 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 7098 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2002 11:39:19 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 Jun 2002 11:39:19 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Juki-00072i-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:32:56 +0100 Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.93]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Jukg-00072b-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:32:55 +0100 Received: from host213-122-68-142.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.68.142] helo=anuna-1.btinternet.com) by rhenium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17Juka-0005KK-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:32:48 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020617123205.0252bc70@Pop3.norton.antivirus> X-Sender: andrew.nunn/mail.btinternet.com@Pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:33:55 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Andrew Nunn" Subject: Re: LF: Is this reflector working ? In-reply-to: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9ADA@mail.dstl.gov.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Andy, Your message received, but nothing else since 13 June. Andrew G8AXO ---------------- At 12:08 17/06/2002 +0100, you wrote: >Nothing over the weekend at all. >Andy G4JNT > > > >"The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence" >"is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s)." >"For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, " >"or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such >information is" >"prohibited and may be unlawful." From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9887 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2002 11:21:00 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 17 Jun 2002 11:21:00 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 22487 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2002 11:20:29 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 Jun 2002 11:20:29 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17JuNn-0006xU-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:09:15 +0100 Received: from relay.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.49]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17JuNm-0006xP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:09:14 +0100 Received: (qmail 21538 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2002 12:09:11 +0100 Received: from butterfly.mod.uk (HELO warlock.dstl.gov.uk) (192.5.29.10) by relay.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 17 Jun 2002 12:09:11 +0100 Message-ID: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9ADA@mail.dstl.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: "LF Group \(E-mail\)" Subject: LF: Is this reflector working ? Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:08:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Nothing over the weekend at all. Andy G4JNT "The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence" "is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s)." "For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, " "or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is" "prohibited and may be unlawful." From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2564 invoked from network); 13 Jun 2002 15:38:14 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 13 Jun 2002 15:38:14 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 546 invoked from network); 13 Jun 2002 15:37:49 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 13 Jun 2002 15:37:49 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17IWWJ-0005ju-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:28:19 +0100 Received: from web13306.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.175.42]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17IWWI-0005jp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:28:18 +0100 Message-ID: <20020613152814.3782.qmail@web13306.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.125.44.226] by web13306.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:28:14 PDT Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:28:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Michael Silvers" Subject: RE: LF: RE: PART 2 (larger loops) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-reply-to: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Bill & Group, Although not necessarily long distance communication, here in the US before there was Non-directional beacons for aviation navigation, there was directional beacons or four-course radio range. These beacons used large loops to develop the beam(s), see http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/ndb-nav-history.htm . I seem to remember seeing some pix somewhere on the web but can't seem to find them anymore. A "Google" on pertinent terminology of the era should turn up something. 73 de Mike KB6WFC k .. --- "Ashlock,William" wrote: > Anyone know of any old-time loop > applications for long distance > transmission? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19844 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2002 17:20:56 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 12 Jun 2002 17:20:56 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 14756 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2002 17:20:31 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 12 Jun 2002 17:20:31 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17IBfg-00034q-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:12:36 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17IBff-00034l-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:12:35 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 18018 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2002 17:11:59 -0000 Received: from merimac.us.gases.boc.com (HELO merimac) (204.149.80.4) by server-12.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 12 Jun 2002 17:11:59 -0000 Received: by EXC_WIL04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:20:15 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: RE: PART 2 (larger loops) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:00:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Jim and group, Jim, thanks for the picture of OH1TN TX loop setup. Not far off my "gone wild" scenario. With a few refinements like an elevated return and a lower Rac conductor that setup would blow a certain opinionated gentleman right out of his boots! BTW: I visited the old Marconi transmitting sight on Cape Cod last weekend where he accomplished his first ocean crossing in 1906. Nothing remains but the concrete piers for two of the towers - but such a beautiful isolated spot, overlooking the ocean 100ft below! A diagram indicated he used a 45KW generator to feed his spark transmitter, which feed a large loading coil connected to a huge conical fan-out of wires to four wooden towers. Apparently he sound of his rotating spark gap could be heard in the town 4 miles away! Kindof wondered why Marconi didn't experiment with loop antennas. Anyone know of any old-time loop applications for long distance transmission? Not long after this initial phase of early radio development the technology shifted to much higher frequencies where the loop has less of an advantage due to the smaller size of a 1WL loop. Bill A >Dear Bill, LF Group, At 12:34 31/05/2002 -0400, you wrote: >PS: I was working in some numbers last night for a "loop antenna designer >gone wild" scenario with 100w input. Using the max size for a loop of 1WL at >136k the width could be .65 mi and a height of 100ft. Compare with what Reino, OH1TN uses - a LW antenna 28m high and 500m long, self-resonant close to 136k (see http://gamma.nic.fi/~oh9ufo/136ant.gif). I don't know if anyone has tried to measure the ERP, but with 100W TX power, he certainly puts out one of the best signals around. If we all had antennas like this, 1W ERP would be too easy! Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6619 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2002 17:17:20 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 17:17:20 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 17205 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2002 17:16:52 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 17:16:52 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Hp9n-0000HL-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:10:11 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Hp9m-0000HG-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:10:10 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17Hp9l-0001yh-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:10:09 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Hp9k-0007TJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:10:08 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020611175608.00a5e030@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:09:54 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: DJ In-reply-to: <000201c2115f$c33215c0$83e8fc3e@l8p8y6> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020611101143.00a7f1b0@gemini.herts.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Mal, LF Group, At 12:47 11/06/2002 +0100, you wrote: >Mine runs ICE COLD. Surprised you have not tried this approach Jim instead >of using those big coils!!!!! and all that resistance !!! Really Mal? actually absorbing energy from the surroundings - presumably the Q is negative, and you get more output than input. You should be able to do away with the rest of the transmitter and get all the RF you need by resting the tank coil on a hot water bottle as an energy source - like a sort of RF peltier effect device. Sounds like an amazing breakthrough! Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17031 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2002 17:00:23 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 17:00:23 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 18925 invoked by uid 10001); 11 Jun 2002 17:04:18 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 17:04:18 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HowB-0000DC-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:56:07 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HowA-0000D7-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:56:06 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17How7-0001l2-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:56:03 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17How6-00073v-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:56:02 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020611163249.00aa4208@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:55:50 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: RE: LF: DJ In-reply-to: <01C21150.F2C33350.g4jnt@thersgb.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Andy, LF Group, At 14:04 11/06/2002 +0100, you wrote: >...Anyway, isn't 2 mix - the red coloured one - the wrong material for >this frequency ? I thought that was >meant for the 2 - 20 MHz region. It is the power materials catalogue that I have here; -2 mix is the lowest permeability material listed, and is recommended for resonant inductor applications. The curves give core loss data from 50kHz to 2.5MHz. All the higher permeability materials have higher loss at a given flux and frequency - some are better than others. Using a lower permeability means more turns for a given inductance, which in turn means lower flux for a given applied voltage and therefore still lower core loss. The limiting factor is when the winding copper losses dominate the core losses - I suppose if you want 100s of uH or mH the higher permeability stuff wins out. Micrometals say that inductors where the core losses exceed the copper loss are a bad idea because the heating of the core is a vicious circle where the losses increase as the temperature rises - It doesn't say if actual thermal runaway is possible, although it does say that prolonged operation at high temperature causes irreversible increase in loss as well. The Philips data for 3C85 says at 100kHz and 100mT, loss is about 100mW/cm^3, and effective volume is 17.8cm^3 for an ETD 44 core, so your transformer core loss should be about 1.8W, plus winding losses. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14188 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2002 16:02:26 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 16:02:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 10188 invoked by uid 10001); 11 Jun 2002 16:06:16 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 16:06:16 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HnuE-00003R-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:50:02 +0100 Received: from mta4-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.44]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HnuD-000033-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:50:01 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.232.131]) by mta4-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020611154959.NBLK29003.mta4-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:49:59 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c2115f$c33215c0$83e8fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020611101143.00a7f1b0@gemini.herts.ac.uk> Subject: Re: LF: DJ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:47:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Moritz" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:39 AM Subject: Re: LF: DJ > Dear Mal, LF Group, > > At 19:59 10/06/2002 +0100, you wrote: > >. Two taps on the coil permits freq adjustment from 135.7 - 137.8 khz... > > > Something is wrong if you need to adjust the tuning within this range - the > output should be flat within a fraction of a dB over the whole band > without re-tuning. Nothing wrong, I am fussy and like everything on the nose, and not bits of dangling wire on the top of coils that you can wind one way or the other to fudge an approximate resonance. Perfection is my aim. > > Incidentally, an inductor that works OK for a low pass filter won't > necessarily be suitable in this type of tank circuit - in the low pass, the > loaded Q of the circuit is usually 1 or less, depending on design, while in > the tank circuit it is about 6. This means the tank circuit inductor has > to cope with reactive power several times greater than the low-pass > inductor for the same power throughput - so beware! Mine runs ICE COLD. Surprised you have not tried this approach Jim instead of using those big coils!!!!! and all that resistance !!! G3KEV > > Cheers, Jim Moritz > 73 de M0BMU > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19530 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2002 13:52:25 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 13:52:25 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 10640 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2002 13:51:53 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 13:51:53 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Hm0h-0008In-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:48:35 +0100 Received: from imo-r09.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.105]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Hm0g-0008Ie-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:48:34 +0100 Received: from G0MRF@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.11c.12686467 (3999) for ; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:47:58 -0400 (EDT) From: G0MRF@aol.com Message-ID: <11c.12686467.2a37598e@aol.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:47:58 EDT Subject: LF: Core efficiency To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows UK sub 10512 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit In a message dated 6/11/02 2:09:19 PM GMT Daylight Time, g4jnt@thersgb.net writes:


Thought it felt a bit dubious,  but I hadn't got the core loss information
available so couldn't justify the feeling.   Anyway, isn't 2 mix - the red
coloured one -  the wrong material for this frequency ?  I thought that was
meant for the 2 - 20 MHz region.



I tried the -3 material which is the next material up from the -2 with slightly higher permeability. Even with fewer turns of larger diameter wire, the losses were 50% up on the T225-2.

73

David  GOMRF From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27703 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2002 13:10:24 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 13:10:24 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: High Received: (qmail 13677 invoked by uid 10001); 11 Jun 2002 13:14:19 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 13:14:19 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HlMO-0008D2-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:06:56 +0100 Received: from smtp-1.visp.telinco.net ([212.1.130.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HlMN-0008Cx-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:06:55 +0100 Received: from [212.1.149.201] (helo=standalone) by smtp-1.visp.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.32 #1) id 17Hl13-0004uq-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:44:53 +0100 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:04:48 +0100 Message-ID: <01C21150.F2C33350.g4jnt@thersgb.net> From: "Andy talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: DJ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:04:15 +0100 Importance: high X-Priority: 1 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Thought it felt a bit dubious, but I hadn't got the core loss information available so couldn't justify the feeling. Anyway, isn't 2 mix - the red coloured one - the wrong material for this frequency ? I thought that was meant for the 2 - 20 MHz region. The tank coil on my 700W PA, wound with 110 turns of 2.5mm Litz in three layers on a 60mm diameter former just runs warm to touch, so I would guestimate it is dissipating about 10 - 15 Watts and consequently contributing about 0.1dB loss. Possibly about the same loss again in the aluminium case, with three of the surfaces less than a coil's diameter from the tank. The detuning effect of the case proximity caused about 5% reduction in inductance. Before I realised the error of my ways, the first test build of this transmitter had the steel top of the case quite close to the tank coil. This got extremally hot ! Magnetic materials can have very high losses at RF. After several hours of test transmitting the steel was too hot to touch, with all the rest of the PA just comfortably warm. Completely cured by fixing a pure aluminium plate under the steel. A ETD-44 core of 3C85 material forming the output transformer with B max at 0.1T runs at around 50 deg so it looks as if this has the higher loss. Just never got round to making this transformer with a bigger core. Andy G4JNT -----Original Message----- From: James Moritz [SMTP:j.r.moritz@herts.ac.uk] Sent: 2002/06/11 13:07 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: DJ Mal is using the big thick one. The area of this is 2.32cm^2, using Andy's figures, the flux density works out to 50mT or 500 gauss. At 136k this results in core loss of 0.44W/cm^3, and with a volume of 30cm^3 the total core loss is about 13W. The thinner core is about double this. By itself, the 13W will result in a temperature rise of about 50 or so degrees C - the resistive loss in the windings will add at least a few watts and another 20deg C or so to this. By the time you have added some more temperature rise due to being in a box and the insulating effect of the PCB, the actual operating temperature will be way over 100deg C. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7070 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2002 13:03:09 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 13:03:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 29237 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2002 13:02:41 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 13:02:41 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HlEv-0008AE-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:59:13 +0100 Received: from irwell.zetnet.co.uk ([194.247.47.48] helo=zetnet.co.uk ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HlEu-0008A9-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:59:12 +0100 Received: from a7j7r2 (bts-0138.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.48.138]) by zetnet.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g5BCwni08994 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:58:49 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c21147$ad5b7ec0$8a30f7c2@a7j7r2> From: "John Rabson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9ACA@mail.dstl.gov.uk> Subject: LF: Re: FW: Programming !!!HELP!!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:42:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > Spectra claimed in the early days that PB will 95% understand QB code - the > only problems I had in translation related to keywords being used as > variable names; a practice allowed by QB but not PB. I always tried to avoid that situation, having once met a line in someone's Algol 60: 'for' for := 1 'step' step 'until' until 'do' do; John Rabson From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18237 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2002 12:14:22 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 12:14:22 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 3889 invoked by uid 10001); 11 Jun 2002 12:18:16 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 12:18:16 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HkQq-00083U-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:07:28 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HkQo-00083P-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:07:27 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17HkQj-00032Y-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:07:21 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17HkQi-0005QU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:07:20 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020611121253.00ab2828@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:07:09 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: RE: LF: DJ In-reply-to: <01C2113B.BA953B00.g4jnt@thersgb.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Andy, Mal, LF Group, At 11:32 11/06/2002 +0100, you wrote: >A T200 core does intuitively seem a bit small, but the theory says it should >work Well, up to the point that it won't saturate - but that is just the first hurdle. I was slightly amazed to find the micrometals catalogue at work in my filing cabinet, containing core loss data for -2 mix amongst other things. There are 2 versions of the T200 toroid, one is 14mm thick, the other is 25mm. Lets assume Mal is using the big thick one. The area of this is 2.32cm^2, using Andy's figures, the flux density works out to 50mT or 500 gauss. At 136k this results in core loss of 0.44W/cm^3, and with a volume of 30cm^3 the total core loss is about 13W. The thinner core is about double this. By itself, the 13W will result in a temperature rise of about 50 or so degrees C - the resistive loss in the windings will add at least a few watts and another 20deg C or so to this. By the time you have added some more temperature rise due to being in a box and the insulating effect of the PCB, the actual operating temperature will be way over 100deg C. I think stacking 2 of these cores would give a more reasonable temperature rise - but the power dissipation would still be more than the original air-cored coil - take your pick! Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6945 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2002 11:38:00 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 11:38:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 23595 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2002 11:37:37 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 11:37:37 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HjuJ-0007yC-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:33:51 +0100 Received: from mta3-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.43]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HjuI-0007y7-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:33:50 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.232.86]) by mta3-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020611113349.FVEX24398.mta3-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:33:49 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c2113b$f9a6dc40$56e8fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: DJ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:34:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
For info/Decca coil mods.
 
54 uH coil using powdered iron core (T200 - TYPE) resistance 0.4 ohms using 18 mm enamelled
copper wire, single layer.
 
54 uH coil using original decca paxolin former and original litz wire 0.5 ohms.
 
The iron core has a slight advantage plus only a fraction of the physical size.
 
Using a ferrite core, would require less turns to achieve the 54 uH value, heavier wire could be used with resistance advantages.
 
The cores that I used are Genalex G1T 26R817 original Decca, out of the phase loop transformer assembly unit, about the same size as a T200.
 
de G3KEV
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2077 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2002 10:45:06 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 10:45:06 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: High Received: (qmail 108 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2002 10:44:39 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 10:44:39 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HizV-0007pi-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:35:09 +0100 Received: from smtp-1.visp.telinco.net ([212.1.130.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HizU-0007pd-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:35:08 +0100 Received: from [212.1.142.207] (helo=standalone) by smtp-1.visp.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.32 #1) id 17Hie7-000285-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:13:03 +0100 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:32:55 +0100 Message-ID: <01C2113B.BA953B00.g4jnt@thersgb.net> From: "Andy talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: DJ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:32:49 +0100 Importance: high X-Priority: 1 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Re Tank coil components in LF Transmitters: Use the equation V = 4.44 . F.N.A.B to determine the number of turns needed on a ferrite or iron dust core. The T200 core Mal mentioned, if it is the normal Amidon iron dust type has a torroidal diameter of 51mm so the core cross section will be around about 12 * 15mm, so a core cross sectional area of 180mm^2 or 180E-6 m^2 For a 400W PA module operating from a 50V supply in full bridge, RMS voltage into the primary load will need to be 50V pk * 4/pi / SQR(2) = 45V. With a tank Q of 6 the voltage across the tank is only 270V, so lets take a value of 300V for safety. For an iron dust core, Bmax can be taken to around 0.4 Tesla to keep below saturation (note, only 0.15 to 0.2 T can be allowed for ferrites) so : Minimum turns N = 300V / (4.44 * 137000 * 180E-6 * 0.3) = 9 turns. Since I recall 43 turns were quoted in the earlier Email, it looks as if that is more than enough. A T200 core does intuitively seem a bit small, but the theory says it should work, so provided the 40 odd turns of wire needed to get the correct inductance can be wound on in practice, and this wire can be thick enough to give minimal copper loss - probably the difficult bit - it ought to do the job. I still much prefer an air wound coil in this position though - it feels better. In my 700 W switch mode Tx running direct from mains supply, the voltage on the tank is a lot higher with a voltage supplied to the primary load of 150V RMS, so a ferrite core would be even more dodgy than the one in the Decca units, and an air wound coil (surrounded by aluminium) wound with 2.5mm Litz wire does an excellent job. The design for this 700W Tx is outlined on the G3YMC LF web site, and has been submitted for publication in an Amateur Radio tecnical magazine, probably around November time. Andy G4JNT -----Original Message----- From: James Moritz [SMTP:j.r.moritz@herts.ac.uk] Sent: 2002/06/11 10:40 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: DJ Incidentally, an inductor that works OK for a low pass filter won't necessarily be suitable in this type of tank circuit - in the low pass, the loaded Q of the circuit is usually 1 or less, depending on design, while in the tank circuit it is about 6. This means the tank circuit inductor has to cope with reactive power several times greater than the low-pass inductor for the same power throughput - so beware! Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1715 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2002 09:52:40 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 09:52:40 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 17353 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2002 09:52:08 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 09:52:08 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Hi89-0007hT-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:40:01 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Hi88-0007h1-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:40:00 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17Hi84-0004V1-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:39:56 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Hi80-00008R-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:39:52 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020611101143.00a7f1b0@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:39:38 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: DJ In-reply-to: <001001c210b3$ad4d2620$abe9fc3e@l8p8y6> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Mal, LF Group, At 19:59 10/06/2002 +0100, you wrote: >. Two taps on the coil permits freq adjustment from 135.7 - 137.8 khz... Something is wrong if you need to adjust the tuning within this range - the output should be flat within a fraction of a dB over the whole band without re-tuning. Incidentally, an inductor that works OK for a low pass filter won't necessarily be suitable in this type of tank circuit - in the low pass, the loaded Q of the circuit is usually 1 or less, depending on design, while in the tank circuit it is about 6. This means the tank circuit inductor has to cope with reactive power several times greater than the low-pass inductor for the same power throughput - so beware! Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25498 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2002 00:57:45 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 00:57:45 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 5398 invoked by uid 10001); 11 Jun 2002 01:01:40 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 11 Jun 2002 01:01:40 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HZrK-0006fs-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 01:50:06 +0100 Received: from tomts11.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.55] helo=tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HZrI-0006fl-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 01:50:05 +0100 Received: from server1.sympatico.ca ([216.209.138.132]) by tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020611004958.PIIS3699.tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net@server1.sympatico.ca>; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:49:58 -0400 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020610203655.02c68b80@POP2.sympatico.ca> X-Sender: b1aemm59@POP2.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:48:47 -0400 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Larry Kayser" Subject: Re: LF: Programming !!!HELP!!! In-reply-to: <3.0.5.32.20020609175350.009d2540@pop3.esoterica.pt> References: <3.0.5.32.20020606150906.007f6680@pop3.esoterica.pt> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >Brian: > Some progress has been made in that I am now >able to commnicate serially through a COM port using a simple >QB45 routine running in a DOS box under ME at 9600 and >inconsistently at 19200. 73, Brian Really! Well take a scope and watch the incoming data at both speeds and make sure that the start bit directly follows the preceding stop bit, no extra time allowed. Bet you find your not quite doing what you thing your doing. If you get errors when there is ZERO extra time then you have a problem sitting in the bush waiting to catch you. Some years ago I was paid to disassemble some functions of QB 4.5 and find out what was going on in the code, unless you are running a very fast Pentium you will find there is a little bomb waiting for you when incoming data is going at machine rate, ie no extra wasted time between stop and start bits. It can look good but then when you have invested hundreds of hours of programming you might find a nasty waiting to take you on. My standard test here, because of the 18 millisecond interrupt in a PC, is to make the machine faultlessly handle coms for several weeks without failure. Remember MS makes no statements ever about the maximum return time from the 18 ms interrupt, it can take up to several hundred milliseconds and if your running at machine rate only a buffer of 16K or larger can keep the game sane. Good Luck. PS under VB6 we now use minimum buffer size of 32K and my partner Jim has just been working with a new beta release of MS VB and tells me he sees the machine wants to assign up to 256K to the buffer for each com port. PPS, are you active on 144 MHz with a big signal by chance? Larry VA3LK From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7658 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2002 19:22:56 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 10 Jun 2002 19:22:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 13900 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2002 19:22:27 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 Jun 2002 19:22:27 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HUgB-0005tC-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:18:15 +0100 Received: from mta7-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.47]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HUgA-0005t7-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:18:14 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.233.171]) by mta7-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020610191808.BRC8332.mta7-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:18:08 +0100 Message-ID: <001001c210b3$ad4d2620$abe9fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: DJ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:59:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Due to email received, mostly private about the DJ coil mods especially the ferrite approach, the required information follows.
Models using the BCB capacitor board, total series capacitance 24nf  need an inductance on the main ferrite core winding of 54 - 53 uH for 135 - 138 khz. Pick a ferrite or iron powder core about the same size as the amidon  T200 or larger and wind the reqd number of turns to get the above inductance value. My core needed 43 turns of 1mm enamelled wire. I use these cores for my LPF
capable of running several hundred watts RF output and they never get warm.
Pull out the capacitor board and connect the above coil in series to pin 5, also join the connectors labelled 7 and 8, connect a sig gen and scope in parallel to the input of coil and earth lead to pin 1 (as per original connections in cct diagram) for main coil. Tune the sig gen around 135 - 138 khz for min amplitude display, series resonant procedure, and adjust the inductor turns to the exact resonant freq rqd. If the C board value is as above then it will be easy to arrive at the desired resonant freq with the above inductor value. Two taps on the coil permits freq adjustment from 135.7 - 137.8 khz.
The beauty using the above procedure allows all adjustments to be made externally from the unit and when replaced it is spot on, no freq changes or going off resonance because of metal case proximity as happens with the air wound coils.
The ferrite/iron coil because of the small size can actually be mounted on the capacitor board, there is ample room at the top end, and convenient to adjust if necessary.
For the link winding follow the same procedure as above but only about 4uH is required, more details if required.
For the lower band models proceed as above but the C board BCA needs to be modified for a total series C of 24 nf.
 
 
Have fun de Mal/G3KEV   
 
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10585 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2002 17:08:33 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 10 Jun 2002 17:08:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 21182 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2002 17:08:06 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 Jun 2002 17:08:06 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HSac-0005bh-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:04:22 +0100 Received: from mta7-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.47]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HSab-0005bb-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:04:21 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.228.79]) by mta7-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020610170418.XPEP8332.mta7-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:04:18 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c210a0$fb7a4020$4fe4fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: Re: LF: DJ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:56:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 12:35 AM
Subject: Re: LF: DJ

In a message dated 6/9/02 7:02:29 PM GMT Daylight Time, g3kev.ham@virgin.net writes:

Re: Decca

Using the original coils the inductance when measured in the case and out of the case varies by several Uh and therefore difficult to resonate/align properly


Not really.
The coils have about 3 turns at the top of the former that are not fixed other than with a tywrap.
These turns can be fully or partially wound in-phase or out of phase in order to precisely resonate the tank circuits where you need them.
 
Only applicable to the A model on 127 khz and even then is not the best approach for optimum alignment on 137 khz. The methods that I recommend in my previous message will give the best results with a mimimum of trouble, and by adjusting the core the resonant frequency is easily changed to cover the whole band, any frequency between 135.7 - 137.8 khz.
Using the ferrite core method just select the appropriate tap to resonate on the desired frequency.
Adjust each of the 3 coils.
All models except A need turns removing from the coils for optimum LC using the BCB capacitor boards on 137 khz. Capacitor boards BCA need modification as well as the coils for 137 khz.
 
Others in the UK have published information on their WEB sites about Decca mods, so take your pick.
 
G3KEV
  
 
 

73

David  G0MRF
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18775 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2002 15:13:15 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 10 Jun 2002 15:13:15 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 11498 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2002 15:12:46 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 Jun 2002 15:12:46 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HQnD-0005Ji-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:09:15 +0100 Received: from [204.118.80.17] (helo=gemini.issi.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HQnC-0005Jb-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:09:14 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: Gemini@issi.com Subject: LF: Norton Anti-Virus detected a virus in a document you authored. X-Priority: 3 Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 08:07:25 -0700 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Gemini/Santa Clara/ISSIHQ(Release 5.0.10 |March 22, 2002) at 06/10/2002 08:09:13 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Please contact your system administrator immediately. The infected component in the scanned document was deleted. Virus Information: The attachment 0122MOD.ltr.exe contained the virus W32.Klez.H@mm and was deleted. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20012 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2002 14:22:27 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 10 Jun 2002 14:22:27 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 3937 invoked by uid 10001); 10 Jun 2002 14:26:16 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 Jun 2002 14:26:16 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HPx6-0005Bw-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 15:15:24 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HPx4-0005Br-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 15:15:22 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 10273 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2002 14:15:10 -0000 Received: from merimac.us.gases.boc.com (HELO merimac) (204.149.80.4) by server-21.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 10 Jun 2002 14:15:10 -0000 Received: by EXC_WIL04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:23:28 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Re: RE: Vertical angles Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:04:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Mike, > >When several UK stations used loop antennas, I noticed that they had fading > >at much shorter distances than those using Marconis. This was at about > >300km, whereas Marconi users experience fading at about 500km. > Possibly due to lower output? No, I really mean fading, not weaker signal. The fading was typically slow - perhaps over 30-60 seconds. Very interesting! >>Therefore the location of the feedpoint does not effect the wave angle. >So, presumably my first theory is correct - loops have a higher angle of radiation than Maconis. For sure! What I would really like to do is entice someone to transmit on both a loop and a vertical at the same time with a frequency separation that is small enough to be seen on an ARGO screen - then determine how the signals compare on a minute by minute basis from different captures via the ionosphere. I probably could do this myself using my old vertical hardware and old antenna location but the efficiency of the vertical compared to the loop would be down at least 6 dB due to the big deQing problem at the only location I have for the top hat sort-of free of trees. A lot of captures that guys normally make of my signal at 400 - 500mi during the winter season can probably live with the 6db handicap, though. 73, Bill A >Mike, G3XDV _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 473 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2002 13:26:49 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 10 Jun 2002 13:26:49 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 25644 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2002 13:26:26 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 Jun 2002 13:26:26 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HP8I-00052q-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:22:54 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HP8H-00052l-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:22:53 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17HP8C-0004FC-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:22:48 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17HP8B-0000Cs-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:22:47 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020610140853.00a8e608@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:22:37 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: RE: PART 2 In-reply-to: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Bill, LF Group, At 12:34 31/05/2002 -0400, you wrote: >PS: I was working in some numbers last night for a "loop antenna designer >gone wild" scenario with 100w input. Using the max size for a loop of 1WL at >136k the width could be .65 mi and a height of 100ft. Compare with what Reino, OH1TN uses - a LW antenna 28m high and 500m long, self-resonant close to 136k (see http://gamma.nic.fi/~oh9ufo/136ant.gif). I don't know if anyone has tried to measure the ERP, but with 100W TX power, he certainly puts out one of the best signals around. If we all had antennas like this, 1W ERP would be too easy! Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11860 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2002 11:58:51 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 10 Jun 2002 11:58:51 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 27294 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2002 11:58:25 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 Jun 2002 11:58:25 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HNe7-0004pz-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:47:39 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HNe6-0004pu-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:47:38 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17HNe5-0001iI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:47:37 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17HNdv-0004oh-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:47:27 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020610113431.00a8eb88@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:36:47 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: DJ In-reply-to: <000201c20fdf$a824c1a0$27d1fc3e@l8p8y6> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Mal, LF Group, At 18:58 09/06/2002 +0100, you wrote: >Has any Decca Jeep owner considered using ferrite cores for PA coils >instead of altering the existing poor quality paxolin air wound devices. >The originals in spite of being wound with litz wire are poor specimens, >not even good quality at the time, when ceramic formers and better were >available and widely used in the USA. The unloaded Q of the Decca coils is pretty good at about 300 - the loaded Q is quite low at about 5 or 6. So the loss in the tank circuits is only about 2% or 0.1dB, not very significant. The paxolin has negligible loss at 136kHz, and cutting and drilling ceramic formers would be very hard work, as well as making no difference. If you really feel it necessary , most of the loss in the tank circuit is copper loss, ie. due to the RF resistance of the litz wire; the only ways to significantly increase the unloaded Q would be to increase the size of the coils and wire. >Using the original coils the inductance when measured in the case and out >of the case varies by several Uh and therefore difficult to resonate/align >properly... >Rewind the coils lower in frequency by a few khz than is required and use >a large copper ring in the core of the coils for precise resonance, >alternatively wind the coil higher in frequency than required and use an >appropriate ferrite core to adjust for precision alignment. >The best approach is to discard the original coils and rewind new coils on >ferrite cores ... The tuning process does not require great precision due to the low loaded Q - getting the frequency within a kHz or so is fine, and once it is done it never seems to need readjustment. Fine tuning can be done with the coils in-situ by moving the end few tuns up and down the former. It isn't easy to find ferrite cores that would reduce the loss significantly and are big enough not to saturate. If you do decide to use ferrite cores, the coupling coefficient between primary and link windings will change, so it will be necessary to optimise the turns ratios for the guard circuit to work properly. >These Jeeps are big things, about the same size as the Marconi Jeep, and a >quarter the size of the Willis Jeep. A better solution is to build your >own micro jeep, more power and a fraction of the size as the Decca. It is certainly possible to make a smaller 1.2kW PA, which is fine for CW. But a 2 way CW contact only requires about 25% duty cycle from the TX, which is not very demanding. Using the PSK and FSK modes in a beacon mode requires 100% key down operation for hours on end, after which you will certainly appreciate the generous heatsinking of the Decca, especially if the antenna is blowing about and going in and out of tune the whole time! Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24453 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2002 23:39:16 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 23:39:16 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 26761 invoked by uid 10001); 9 Jun 2002 23:43:09 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 23:43:09 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HCDe-0003Qp-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:35:34 +0100 Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.7]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HCDd-0003Qk-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:35:33 +0100 Received: from G0MRF@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.c3.23ebc0e3 (4340) for ; Sun, 9 Jun 2002 19:35:18 -0400 (EDT) From: G0MRF@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 19:35:18 EDT Subject: Re: LF: DJ To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows UK sub 10512 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit In a message dated 6/9/02 7:02:29 PM GMT Daylight Time, g3kev.ham@virgin.net writes:

Re: Decca

Using the original coils the inductance when measured in the case and out of the case varies by several Uh and therefore difficult to resonate/align properly


Not really.
The coils have about 3 turns at the top of the former that are not fixed other than with a tywrap.
These turns can be fully or partially wound in-phase or out of phase in order to precisely resonate the tank circuits where you need them.

73

David  G0MRF From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20808 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2002 21:22:16 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 21:22:16 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 8388 invoked by uid 10001); 9 Jun 2002 21:26:10 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 21:26:10 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HA4d-00037k-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:18:07 +0100 Received: from cmailenv4.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.56]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17HA4c-00037f-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:18:06 +0100 Received: from [62.21.151.124] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV4.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17HA4X-0003S4-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 21:18:02 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020609231849.00a3add0@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 23:19:08 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: Fwd: SAQ-transmission 2002-06-03 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
X-From_: sm6nm@telia.com Sun Jun 09 14:12:30 2002
Envelope-to: d.w.rollema@freeler.nl
From: Lars Kålland <sm6nm@telia.com>
To: "PE1ABR" <walterg@doge.nl>, "PE1ABR" <w.geeraert@hccnet.nl>,
   "PD0SDB" <pd0sdb@qsl.net>, "PD0SDB" <peter@cyberknol.tmfweb.nl>,
   "PA4VHF" <pa4vhf@wxc.net>, "PA3FXY" <EvertB@Allieddata.com>,
   "PA3EHP" <ajgweitzel@dutch.nl>, "PA3BEH" <m.verhoeven37@chello.nl>,
   "PA3BCB" <g.f.wolthuis@freeler.nl>,
   "PA2RHB" <r.hooijenga@rhayward.demon.nl>, "PA0WKI" <w.mensink@hetnet.nl>,
   "PA0VBR" <Andries_van_Bronkhorst@aon.nl>, "PA0SE" <d.w.rollema@freeler.nl>,
   "PA0LCD" <lc.doeselaar@hccnet.nl>, "PA0KDF" <K.Fockens@aif.nl>,
   "PA0JGF" <pa0jgf@planet.nl>, "PA0HTT" <henkhil@hetnet.nl>,
   "PA0AWN" <albert.westenberg@RDR.NL>, "OZ8NJ" <niels.rudberg@post.tele.dk>,
   "OZ7NB" <oz7nb@post.tele.dk>
Subject: SAQ-transmission 2002-06-03
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 16:05:16 +0200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300


"ALL STATIONS, THIS IS GRIMETON RADIO, SIERRA ALPHA QUEBEC"
**********************************************************************

The annual transmission from Grimeton Radio/SAQ in Sweden with the Alexander alternator on 17,2 kHz will take place on Sunday the 30th of June at 08:30 UTC and will be repeated at 08:45 UTC, 12:30 UTC and 12:45 UTC.

The station building is open to public during transmission.


QSL-reports are kindly received:

- via e-mail info@alexander.n.se or
- via fax +46-340-674195 or
- via ham call "SM6NM" via Swedish Amateur Bureau (SSA) or direct via CBA or
- via mail to Alexander - Grimeton Veteranradios Vaenner, Radiostationen, Grimeton 72,
   SE-430 16 ROLFSTORP, SWEDEN or
- via amateur radio QSO with the call "SA6Q" on the following frequencies:

09:00-12:00 UTC     136,8 kHz CW

07:00-08:00 UTC    14035 kHz CW    14215 kHz SSB
08:00-08:15 UTC      7015 kHz CW      7050 kHz SSB
09:00-10:00 UTC    14035 kHz CW    14215 kHz SSB
10:00-11:00 UTC      7015 kHz CW      7050 kHz SSB
11:00-12:00 UTC    14035 kHz CW    14215 kHz SSB   
12:00-12:15 UTC      7015 kHz CW      7050 kHz SSB
13:00-14:00 UTC    14035 kHz CW    14215 kHz SSB


Also read web www.alexander.n.se


Note: QSL-cards to "SAQ" are not possible via Swedish Amateur Bureau (SSA) because SAQ is a commercial call sign and not a member of SSA.

When giving QSL to "SAQ" also please add your snail-mail address, because, of the same reason, we can not send QSL-cards via bureau, but only direct via mail.

QSL-cards to "SA6Q" are OK via bureau.


Regards

SM6NM/Lars
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5485 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2002 18:09:16 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 18:09:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 2189 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2002 18:08:50 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 18:08:50 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17H6zK-0002j3-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 19:00:26 +0100 Received: from mta3-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.43]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17H6zJ-0002iy-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 19:00:25 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.209.39]) by mta3-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020609180023.QJZS24398.mta3-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Sun, 9 Jun 2002 19:00:23 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c20fdf$a824c1a0$27d1fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: DJ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:58:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Has any Decca  Jeep owner considered using ferrite cores for PA coils instead of altering the existing poor quality paxolin air wound devices. The originals in spite of being wound with litz wire are poor specimens, not even good quality at the time, when ceramic formers and better were available and widely used in the USA.
Using the original coils the inductance when measured in the case and out of the case varies by several Uh and therefore difficult to resonate/align properly. For those that want to retain the originals there is a way to overcome the problem with resonance, but I have not seen any reference to it before. 
Rewind the coils lower in frequency by a few khz than is required  and use a large copper ring in the core of the coils for precise resonance, alternatively wind the coil higher in frequency than required and use an appropriate ferrite core to adjust for precision alignment.
The best approach is to discard the original coils and rewind new coils on ferrite cores that do not alter in inductance in or out of the metal cabinet. Each coil consists of the main winding  and a link winding. Each coil can be resonated externally with the pull out capacitor board, to the exact frequency required, then replace without further adjustment all three coils/capacitor boards.
Because each unit only runs at about 400 watts rf out, 18 guage insulated wire is adequate.
If anyone is interested in the above mods I have the exact inductance measurements for main and link winding. These values are for the high band versions, low band versions need the capacitor boards modified as well for 136 khz.
These Jeeps are big things, about the same size as the Marconi Jeep, and a quarter the size of the Willis Jeep. A better solution is to build your own micro jeep, more power and a fraction of the size as the Decca.
Have luck de G3KEV
 
 
 
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4820 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2002 18:08:56 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 18:08:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 2105 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2002 18:08:31 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 18:08:31 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17H6zN-0002jB-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 19:00:29 +0100 Received: from mta3-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.43]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17H6zM-0002j5-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 19:00:28 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.209.39]) by mta3-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020609180026.QKAM24398.mta3-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Sun, 9 Jun 2002 19:00:26 +0100 Message-ID: <000301c20fdf$a9f93380$27d1fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: LF: Re: RE: PART 2 Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 19:00:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashlock,William" To: Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 5:34 PM Subject: LF: RE: PART 2 > You can laugh now, but don't say I didn't warn you to stay away from those > antenna terminals once we start rocking and rolling over here at 136 - > loopwise, that is! ........ because that's the only smoke that will be seen > from this 'neck of the woods'. > > Have a good weekend! > > Bill > > PS: I was working in some numbers last night for a "loop antenna designer > gone wild" scenario with 100w input. Using the max size for a loop of 1WL at > 136k the width could be .65 mi and a height of 100ft. (This is not that > outlandish if someone owns a farm and has access to surplus wire) I > calculated an ERP near 100 watts, which is dynamite power at LF! At HF of > course this is nothing. One can see the reason for the ERP cap, even at 100w > input, though most guys at 1KW have a challenge reaching 1W ERP with a > typical vertical. Seems like there should be a point where the efficiency > drops off, however, when a loop reaches such a wide aspect ratio that it > begins looking like a big folded diopole. Good observation Bill, its back to the Vertical for big time!! > > -----Original Message----- > From: hamilton mal [mailto:g3kev.ham@virgin.net] > Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 2:07 PM > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Subject: LF: PART 2 > > > USA on fire. > Started by a 47.4 amp spark exciting a LOOP coupled to a FOREST > > de G3KEV > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered > through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit > http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18054 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2002 18:00:13 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 18:00:13 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 16829 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2002 17:59:42 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 17:59:42 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17H6s4-0002hX-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 18:52:56 +0100 Received: from jubilee.esoterica.pt ([195.22.0.29]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17H6s2-0002hS-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 18:52:55 +0100 Received: from srv17slx.esoterica.pt (srv17slx.esoterica.pt [195.22.0.47]) by jubilee.esoterica.pt (8.12.3/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g59HkPSj022981 for ; Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:46:25 +0100 Received: from slave-6 (por240.esoterica.pt [195.22.5.240]) by srv17slx.esoterica.pt (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g59Hqp820515 for ; Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:52:52 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020609175350.009d2540@pop3.esoterica.pt> X-Sender: brian@pop3.esoterica.pt X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 17:53:50 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Brian Rogerson" Subject: Re: LF: Programming !!!HELP!!! In-reply-to: <3.0.5.32.20020606150906.007f6680@pop3.esoterica.pt> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I would like to thanks all who have sent information on this subject. Some progress has been made in that I am now able to commnicate serially through a COM port using a simple QB45 routine running in a DOS box under ME at 9600 and inconsistently at 19200. 73, Brian At 15:09 06/06/2002 +0100, you wrote: >Hello Group, > >Having assembled some hardware I am now trying to drive it >from the Com port of a computer. I am not a programmer >but have used QB45. I find that a simple QB45 routine will >run under DOS: > >via COM1 at 9600Bd but not COM2 or at 19200Bd. > >I assume this to be a limitation of QB45 since the computer will >successfully run a test proramme under DOS on both ports at >both speeds. > >A quick look at Visual Basic cut down v4 off the front of a >magazine circa 1995 talks about MSCOMM32. Further >a search of www turns up a vast array of information on the >deficiencies of VB and others in relation to serial communication. > >Is there a later version of QB45 or variant which will successfully >run under 95/98/ME or new drivers which will allow QB45 to run? >Is it time to forget QB45? If so which language should I start learning >(has to be simple). Or is it time to change operating systems? > >Any advice would be gratefully received. > >73, Brian >73 Brian CT1DRP IN51QD 41 09 58N 08 39 11W >http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~brian > > > > 73 Brian CT1DRP IN51QD 41 09 58N 08 39 11W http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~brian From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5105 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2002 11:31:07 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 11:31:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 28409 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2002 11:30:39 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 11:30:39 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17H0ra-00021G-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:28:02 +0100 Received: from smarthost0.mail.uk.easynet.net ([212.135.6.10]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17H0rZ-00021B-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:28:01 +0100 Received: from tnt-1-58.easynet.co.uk ([195.40.206.58] helo=erica) by smarthost0.mail.uk.easynet.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17H0rW-0009kp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:27:58 +0100 Message-ID: <000801c20faa$04fad6c0$3ace28c3@erica> From: "g3ldo" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000401c20f94$bfbce7c0$786168d5@oemcomputer> Subject: LF: Re: Re: Picture file conversions to smaller file sizes Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 12:21:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Bill > > and send without loading down the recipient's computer. The .JPG picture > > files I have currently stored on my computer run typically 160K in size >> but when I try to modify them to black and white they end up being larger, > > typically double, but - as high as 30M in one case! I'm currently using > > IrfanVeiw but without much luck. Anyone have some advice? Mike said: > Try using Adobe PhotoShop which is available in a cut down version > (PhotoShop LE) as a give-away with a number of products. This allows you to > define the resolution of the final picture. The full version is downloadable > from www.adobe.com, and a free try-out is available. I concur with Mike that Adobe PhotoShop is the most flexible for changing image formats. The SW package that came with my Olympus digital camera (which gives standard .jpg images 560kB) called MGI Photosuite is quite good for reducing image sizes. With so many image processing SW packages around I found it important to experiment and to document the path to success - I nearly always forget and have to go through the experimental routine again if this is not done. .PCX images are often better for black and white images. Regards, Peter, G3LDO e-mail Web From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27406 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2002 11:06:22 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 11:06:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 18940 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2002 11:05:51 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 11:05:51 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17H0Sy-0001vl-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:02:36 +0100 Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.46]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17H0Sx-0001vg-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:02:35 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.104.96.100]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020609110233.VBEF4119.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Sun, 9 Jun 2002 12:02:33 +0100 Message-ID: <000f01c20fa4$f57f2980$786168d5@oemcomputer> From: "mike.dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: LF: Re: RE: Vertical angles Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 12:01:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > >When several UK stations used loop antennas, I noticed that they had fading > >at much shorter distances than those using Marconis. This was at about > >300km, whereas Marconi users experience fading at about 500km. > Possibly due to lower output? No, I really mean fading, not weaker signal. The fading was typically slow - perhaps over 30-60 seconds. > >Since this type of fading is caused by interference between the sky wave > and ground > >wave, it suggests that the loops had a higher angle of radiation. Is this a > >function of loops, > >or is it possible to steer the vertical angle by altering the feedpoint? > No. Unlike high frequency, so-called 'large loops' (due to the size/WL > ratio), low frequency loops are 'small loops' and have equal current > throughout. Therefore the location of the feedpoint does not effect the wave > angle. So, presumably my first theory is correct - loops have a higher angle of radiation than Maconis. Mike, G3XDV http://www.lf.thersgb.net ==================== From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10004 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2002 09:09:15 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 09:09:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 10182 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2002 09:08:53 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 09:08:53 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GydY-0001fi-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 10:05:24 +0100 Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.41]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GydX-0001fd-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 10:05:23 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.104.97.120]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020609090521.OXSI28297.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Sun, 9 Jun 2002 10:05:21 +0100 Message-ID: <000401c20f94$bfbce7c0$786168d5@oemcomputer> From: "mike.dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: LF: Re: Picture file conversions to smaller file sizes Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 10:05:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > I discovered the digital camera makes a nice scope camera. I'm trying to > convert the pictures I have taken to black and white files with much lower > information content so that I can place a number of them in a Word document > and send without loading down the recipient's computer. The .JPG picture > files I have currently stored on my computer run typically 160K in size but > when I try to modify them to black and white they end up being larger, > typically double, but - as high as 30M in one case! I'm currently using > IrfanVeiw but without much luck. Anyone have some advice? > Thanks, > Bill A Try using Adobe PhotoShop which is available in a cut down version (PhotoShop LE) as a give-away with a number of products. This allows you to define the resolution of the final picture. The full version is downloadable from www.adobe.com, and a free try-out is available. The best program I have used for making files smaller, especially for the web, is FireWorks which is usually used in conjunction with the web authoring tool Dreameaver. Was your 30M file a JPG? I suspect it was a TIF which is uncompressed. Mono images are often best saved in a GIF format if it is not essential to use JPG. Try altering the image size. Often the image is much bigger than necessary and the file size diminishes by (roughly) square law as the image is made smaller. Good luck. Mike, G3XDV http://www.lf.thersgb.net ==================== From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17680 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2002 07:47:15 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 07:47:15 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 21845 invoked by uid 10001); 9 Jun 2002 07:51:08 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 07:51:08 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GxH6-0001Qj-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 08:38:08 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GxH5-0001Qd-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 08:38:07 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 21337 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2002 06:35:56 -0000 Received: from merimac.us.gases.boc.com (HELO merimac) (204.149.80.4) by server-18.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 06:35:56 -0000 Received: by EXC_WIL04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 7 Jun 2002 10:01:33 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Vertical angles Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:26:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >When several UK stations used loop antennas, I noticed that they had fading >at much shorter distances than those using Marconis. This was at about >300km, whereas Marconi users experience fading at about 500km. Possibly due to lower output? >Since this type of fading is caused by interference between the sky wave and ground >wave, it suggests that the loops had a higher angle of radiation. Is this a >function of loops, >or is it possible to steer the vertical angle by altering the feedpoint? No. Unlike high frequency, so-called 'large loops' (due to the size/WL ratio), low frequency loops are 'small loops' and have equal current throughout. Therefore the location of the feedpoint does not effect the wave angle. Bill A _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19094 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2002 07:30:01 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 07:30:01 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 29363 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2002 07:29:33 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 07:29:33 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GwBr-0001FR-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 07:28:39 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GwBq-0001FF-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 09 Jun 2002 07:28:38 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 2351 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2002 06:17:55 -0000 Received: from merimac.us.gases.boc.com (HELO merimac) (204.149.80.4) by server-22.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 2002 06:17:55 -0000 Received: by exc_wil03.edwards.boc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 7 Jun 2002 08:56:21 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Picture file conversions to smaller file sizes Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:14:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All, I discovered the digital camera makes a nice scope camera. I'm trying to convert the pictures I have taken to black and white files with much lower information content so that I can place a number of them in a Word document and send without loading down the recipient's computer. The .JPG picture files I have currently stored on my computer run typically 160K in size but when I try to modify them to black and white they end up being larger, typically double, but - as high as 30M in one case! I'm currently using IrfanVeiw but without much luck. Anyone have some advice? Thanks, Bill A _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2969 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2002 15:29:31 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 8 Jun 2002 15:29:31 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 3961 invoked by uid 10001); 8 Jun 2002 15:33:22 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2002 15:33:22 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GgNR-0007af-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 08 Jun 2002 14:35:33 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GgNQ-0007aO-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 08 Jun 2002 14:35:32 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 26402 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2002 12:30:55 -0000 Received: from merimac.us.gases.boc.com (HELO merimac) (204.149.80.4) by server-23.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 8 Jun 2002 12:30:55 -0000 Received: by exc_wil03.edwards.boc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 7 Jun 2002 08:54:52 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: PART 2 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:34:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: You can laugh now, but don't say I didn't warn you to stay away from those antenna terminals once we start rocking and rolling over here at 136 - loopwise, that is! ........ because that's the only smoke that will be seen from this 'neck of the woods'. Have a good weekend! Bill PS: I was working in some numbers last night for a "loop antenna designer gone wild" scenario with 100w input. Using the max size for a loop of 1WL at 136k the width could be .65 mi and a height of 100ft. (This is not that outlandish if someone owns a farm and has access to surplus wire) I calculated an ERP near 100 watts, which is dynamite power at LF! At HF of course this is nothing. One can see the reason for the ERP cap, even at 100w input, though most guys at 1KW have a challenge reaching 1W ERP with a typical vertical. Seems like there should be a point where the efficiency drops off, however, when a loop reaches such a wide aspect ratio that it begins looking like a big folded diopole. -----Original Message----- From: hamilton mal [mailto:g3kev.ham@virgin.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 2:07 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: PART 2 USA on fire. Started by a 47.4 amp spark exciting a LOOP coupled to a FOREST de G3KEV _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20121 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2002 03:00:42 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 8 Jun 2002 03:00:42 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 3473 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2002 03:00:17 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2002 03:00:17 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GVNZ-0006Gr-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 08 Jun 2002 02:50:57 +0100 Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.7]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GVNX-0006Fr-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 08 Jun 2002 02:50:56 +0100 Received: from MarkusVester@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.fc.19179bb5 (4364) for ; Fri, 7 Jun 2002 21:19:05 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkusVester@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 21:19:05 EDT Subject: Re: LF: Counterpoise Experiment To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 72 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Jim, thank you for reporting these very interesting experiments. I wonder if you could optimize the shielding effectiveness of the counterpoise by connecting it via a variable inductor to ground, thus inducing an adjustable opposite-polarity voltage to nullify the displacement current into the earth. If I remember right, the technique was shown in the circuit diagrams of SAQ's antenna system. - A few years ago, we applied the same principle to effectively neutralize a tetrode amplifier at 40 MHz, using its screen-grid lead inductance. My LF antenna is mostly above our roof, which has a thin aluminium vapor-diffiusion barrier beneath it. A while ago I found that explicitely connecting parts of the foil to TX ground reduced the antenna resistance from 32 to 30 ohms (and less noise-pickup from devices within the house). Judging from the large variations seen during frost periods, I believe a large part of the remaining loss is due to the capacitive coupling to nearby trees. 73 Markus, DF6NM From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2589 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2002 03:00:41 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 8 Jun 2002 03:00:41 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 3476 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2002 03:00:17 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2002 03:00:17 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GVRI-0006H6-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 08 Jun 2002 02:54:48 +0100 Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.7]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GVRH-0006Gt-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 08 Jun 2002 02:54:47 +0100 Received: from MarkusVester@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.d3.ca7c955 (4364) for ; Fri, 7 Jun 2002 21:19:04 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkusVester@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 21:19:03 EDT Subject: Re: LF: Programming !!!HELP!!! To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 72 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Brian, here comes the sniplet of QB45 code I use to directly access com port status lines and the other serial registers from a DOS-Box under Win98 and ME. The trick is that somehow Windows decides to give you the HW resources if you read the modem status register more than once, which I found out only by chance. Good luck es 73 Markus, DF6NM ========================================= ' RTS/DTR routines for Windows DOS BOX ' from morse1jm.bas by Markus Vester, DF6NM cp& = &H3F8 'COM1 cp& = &H2F8 'COM2 prepcom: i% = INP(cp& + 6): i% = INP(cp& + 6) ' works in Win98 DOS Box i% = INP(cp& + 6): OUT cp& + 4, 0 ' necessary for WinME IF i% = 255 THEN cp& = 0: PRINT "tx com port not available" ' read modem status twice to notify windows from dos box ! ' Windows ME needs 2 times read status ' 3rd read status is different from 255 ' and bit 4 (selftest) in modem control has to be reset! ' com port: rts=key, dtr=ptt, gnd ' DSUB9 Pin: 7 4 5 ' DSUB25 Pin: 4 20 7 RETURN rtshi: IF cp& THEN OUT cp& + 4, INP(cp& + 4) OR 2 RETURN rtslo: IF cp& THEN OUT cp& + 4, INP(cp& + 4) AND 253 RETURN dtrhi: IF cp& THEN OUT cp& + 4, INP(cp& + 4) OR 1 RETURN dtrlo: IF cp& THEN OUT cp& + 4, INP(cp& + 4) AND 254 RETURN From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24749 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2002 23:20:27 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 7 Jun 2002 23:20:27 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 29935 invoked by uid 10001); 7 Jun 2002 23:24:18 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 7 Jun 2002 23:24:18 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GQz6-0005dl-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 07 Jun 2002 22:09:24 +0100 Received: from imo-m05.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.8]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GQz5-0005dU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 07 Jun 2002 22:09:23 +0100 Received: from WarmSpgs@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.143.f9dda44 (4239) for ; Fri, 7 Jun 2002 17:03:23 -0400 (EDT) From: WarmSpgs@aol.com Message-ID: <143.f9dda44.2a32799b@aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 17:03:23 EDT Subject: Re: LF: FW: Programming !!!HELP!!! To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: In a message dated 6/7/02 6:46:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ACTALBOT@mail.dstl.gov.uk writes: << Have a look at Power Basic, produced by Spectra Publishing. When Borland decided not to continue with Turbo Basic in th eearly 1090s, this organisation took it over and developed PB into a very good programming language indeed. >> The 1090s? A true computing pioneer! (grin) Robert Zale, who developed Turbo Basic for Borland, now heads PowerBASIC Inc., who have developed quite a line of products for 32-bit Windows console mode and even GUI, in addition to the compiler for real-mode DOS. I'm presuming Spectra may be the marketing entity for outside the Americas. John From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27841 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2002 10:52:42 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 7 Jun 2002 10:52:42 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 22021 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2002 10:52:18 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 7 Jun 2002 10:52:18 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GH4c-0004Kw-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 07 Jun 2002 11:34:26 +0100 Received: from relay.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.49]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GH4b-0004Kr-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 07 Jun 2002 11:34:25 +0100 Received: (qmail 17960 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2002 11:34:22 +0100 Received: from butterfly.mod.uk (HELO warlock.dstl.gov.uk) (192.5.29.10) by relay.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 7 Jun 2002 11:34:22 +0100 Message-ID: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9ACA@mail.dstl.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: "LF Group \(E-mail\)" Subject: LF: FW: Programming !!!HELP!!! Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:33:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Have a look at Power Basic, produced by Spectra Publishing. When Borland decided not to continue with Turbo Basic in th eearly 1090s, this organisation took it over and developed PB into a very good programming language indeed. It can hold its own against C quite comfortably, and in tests of the 16 bit versions of both, I found PB on average to be just 10% slower and created files about twice the size of C. A small porice for not having to programme in C ! I have used PB for about 13 years now, mostly in the 16 bit DOS environment and the speed is more than adequate for real time DSP operations. I have never tried Sound Card applications with the DOS version, though it ought to have been possible and others managed, it always seemed too complicated to try to drive the SB from DOS Spectra do now do a 32 bit Windows version and I have an early copy of that, but have never felt the need for a Windoze interface to any software I write, so apart from some initial playing around it just sits on the computer looking for an application. This ought to be as easy to use as C for Soundcard programming, in fact a lot of the calls to Windoze, given as examples in help files etc, have a lot in common with the standard C calling routines to the same functions. Spectra claimed in the early days that PB will 95% understand QB code - the only problems I had in translation related to keywords being used as variable names; a practice allowed by QB but not PB. Andy G4JNT -----Original Message----- From: Brian Rogerson [SMTP:brian@esoterica.pt] Sent: 06 June 2002 15:09 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Programming !!!HELP!!! Hello Group, Having assembled some hardware I am now trying to drive it from the Com port of a computer. I am not a programmer but have used QB45. I find that a simple QB45 routine will run under DOS: via COM1 at 9600Bd but not COM2 or at 19200Bd. I assume this to be a limitation of QB45 since the computer will successfully run a test proramme under DOS on both ports at both speeds. A quick look at Visual Basic cut down v4 off the front of a magazine circa 1995 talks about MSCOMM32. Further a search of www turns up a vast array of information on the deficiencies of VB and others in relation to serial communication. Is there a later version of QB45 or variant which will successfully run under 95/98/ME or new drivers which will allow QB45 to run? Is it time to forget QB45? If so which language should I start learning (has to be simple). Or is it time to change operating systems? Any advice would be gratefully received. 73, Brian 73 Brian CT1DRP IN51QD 41 09 58N 08 39 11W http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~brian "The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence" "is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s)." "For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, " "or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is" "prohibited and may be unlawful." From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26604 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2002 08:09:03 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 7 Jun 2002 08:09:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 27545 invoked by uid 10001); 7 Jun 2002 08:12:53 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 7 Jun 2002 08:12:53 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GEik-00041r-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 07 Jun 2002 09:03:42 +0100 Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.46]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GEij-00041m-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 07 Jun 2002 09:03:41 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.104.98.173]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020607080338.WBOF4119.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:03:38 +0100 Message-ID: <000e01c20df9$e04dad40$ad6268d5@oemcomputer> From: "mike.dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <003901c20ddd$2a40d2a0$8fb51bca@bob2l2u6k2n1g3> Subject: LF: Vertical angles Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:03:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > The lower that losses can be made within the antenna, the higher the current > for a given applied power, so the better the DX result by sky wave mode. > Carrying out field strength readings a few km away would be more of an > investigation of the ground wave mode rather than the manner in which the > antenna actually launches "rays" that can then reflect off the ionosphere. > So it is not easy to investigate the impact of elevated radials with respect > to radiating energy that goes into sky wave mode. > Most text books are concerned with efficiently launching ground waves and > having reliable coverage. The matter of how the antenna launches energy > that supports sky wave mode of communication is not so easy to find. Any > comments on that? > 73, Bob ZL2CA Traditional thinking is that maximum =low angle= sky wave occurs in a Marconi antenna at the same time as maximum ground wave. This assumes that low angle sky wave is always optimum. This is plainly the case using simple theory, but there must be occasions when a higher angle will 'match' the ionospheric conditions at the time. Amateur radio differs fundamentally from commercial radio in that we can make use of unreliable anomalies that produce much better propagation than the average. It may be that such anomalies exist at higher angles of radiation. The subject of designing for a vertical angle of radiation appears to be largely unexplored, except to get this 'lowest possible' angle. When several UK stations used loop antennas, I noticed that they had fading at much shorter distances than those using Marconis. This was at about 300km, whereas Marconi users experience fading at about 500km. Since this type of fading is caused by interference between the sky wave and ground wave, it suggests that the loops had a higher angle of radiation. Is this a function of loops, or is it possible to steer the vertical angle by altering the feedpoint? I have been using a 3m loop for receive recently with interesting results. I can receive CFH during the daytime much stronger and much more often than with my Marconi. At night, these differences are less. Alan, G3NYK, has said that daytime transatlantic propagation is by a different mechanism than night-time. Is my reception difference perhaps a function of angle of radiation? Mike, G3XDV http://www.lf.thersgb.net ==================== From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3669 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2002 04:51:22 -0000 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 7 Jun 2002 04:51:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 7985 invoked by uid 10001); 7 Jun 2002 04:55:12 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 7 Jun 2002 04:55:12 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GBWC-0003ee-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 07 Jun 2002 05:38:32 +0100 Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz ([210.86.15.131]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GBWA-0003eZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 07 Jun 2002 05:38:30 +0100 Received: from bob2l2u6k2n1g3 ([219.88.63.7]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20020607043752.WSDK20132.mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz@bob2l2u6k2n1g3> for ; Fri, 7 Jun 2002 16:37:52 +1200 Message-ID: <003901c20ddd$2a40d2a0$8fb51bca@bob2l2u6k2n1g3> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: LF: Counterpoise comment Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 16:37:45 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, The tests done by Jim, and comments made are all very interesting. The following is a further matter to consider: For any counterpoise system that is elevated and insulated from ground, there will be an "interface" situation at the outer ends of the counterpoise and that could influence the strength of a ground wave lauched from the antenna (assuming the antenna as such can be considered as a separate part of the wider environment). There must be some degree of "mutual coupling" between the elevated radials and the ground. However, despite whatever occurs with ground coupling, amateur LF DX is mostly a result of sky wave propagation. The lower that losses can be made within the antenna, the higher the current for a given applied power, so the better the DX result by sky wave mode. Carrying out field strength readings a few km away would be more of an investigation of the ground wave mode rather than the manner in which the antenna actually launches "rays" that can then reflect off the ionosphere. So it is not easy to investigate the impact of elevated radials with respect to radiating energy that goes into sky wave mode. Most text books are concerned with efficiently launching ground waves and having reliable coverage. The matter of how the antenna launches energy that supports sky wave mode of communication is not so easy to find. Any comments on that? 73, Bob ZL2CA From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28080 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2002 02:37:52 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 7 Jun 2002 02:37:52 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 2450 invoked by uid 10001); 7 Jun 2002 02:41:42 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 7 Jun 2002 02:41:42 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17G9WP-0003OP-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 07 Jun 2002 03:30:37 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17G9WN-0003OK-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 07 Jun 2002 03:30:36 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu07.dialup2.infomsk.ru [212.164.44.119]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA3d0019a50efb for ; Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:25:41 +0700 (OSS) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 10:06:37 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Counterpoise Experiment In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606170356.00b0cba8@gemini.herts.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi James and Group. On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, James Moritz wrote: > It seems to me that in this case, where most of the antenna field (and > therefore the displacement current) is going to the ground rather than the > counterpoise, most of the return current will still be flowing in the > ground, even if the counterpoise is insulated from ground. Rather than > returning directly to the grounded terminal of the TX output, this current > would have to flow through the capacitance between the counterpoise and > ground. This means there must be a voltage between the counterpoise and > ground - if the ground-counterpoise capacitance is roughly 20 times that > of the antenna-ground capacitance (7nF and 340pF respectively - which is > what I estimate in this case), the counterpoise voltage would be roughly > 1/20 of the antenna voltage. In my antenna system, this would put an RF > voltage of about 1kV on the counterpoise when running at full power - so > the counterpoise, antenna tuner and isolating transformer between TX output > and tuner would all have to be insulated to withstand this voltage, making > things quite complicated again... This is a reason why isolated elevated conterpoise should reduce loss. Certanly it will be current in the ground. But it density shuold be redused. Any way to reduce loss by elevated conterpoise all antenna the current SHOULD return through conterpoise othervice it is no meaning. The advantage would be that the > resistance of the ground path should be reduced, since the ground > "connection" is effectively the whole area of the counterpoise, decreasing > the loss due to this source. However, many experiments have shown that the > resistance of the ground connection is only a minor factor in the overall > losses in a small antenna like this one (3ohms is probably not that > unrealistic), so I would expect little improvement overall. I think in such a configuration enviroment losses should decreace also. Trees, buildings e.t.c. are connected to the ground, not to isolated (!!!) conterpoise. Any way Your experiment is very informative. Thanks a lot! 73 de RA9MB/Alex http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21338 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2002 17:12:40 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 6 Jun 2002 17:12:40 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 5695 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2002 17:12:11 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 6 Jun 2002 17:12:11 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17G0kf-0002Gp-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 18:08:45 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17G0ke-0002Gk-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 18:08:44 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17G0kd-0006vg-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 18:08:43 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17G0kY-0006IM-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 18:08:38 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606170356.00b0cba8@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 18:08:31 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: Counterpoise Experiment In-reply-to: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605115057.00aa4808@gemini.herts.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 23:09 06/06/2002 +0000, you wrote: >What coil resistance You have? Or 37 ohm it is whithout coil resistance? The resistance values quoted are those due to the antenna alone - I have already subtracted the coil resistance which is about 5 ohms. >It seems to be much better if You will not use ground, conterpoise only. >To reduce loss all the currend should return through conterpoise. >In this case it is good to use ferrite transformer betwin TX and >antenna to avoid HF voltage on TX box. > It seems to me that in this case, where most of the antenna field (and therefore the displacement current) is going to the ground rather than the counterpoise, most of the return current will still be flowing in the ground, even if the counterpoise is insulated from ground. Rather than returning directly to the grounded terminal of the TX output, this current would have to flow through the capacitance between the counterpoise and ground. This means there must be a voltage between the counterpoise and ground - if the ground-counterpoise capacitance is roughly 20 times that of the antenna-ground capacitance (7nF and 340pF respectively - which is what I estimate in this case), the counterpoise voltage would be roughly 1/20 of the antenna voltage. In my antenna system, this would put an RF voltage of about 1kV on the counterpoise when running at full power - so the counterpoise, antenna tuner and isolating transformer between TX output and tuner would all have to be insulated to withstand this voltage, making things quite complicated again... The advantage would be that the resistance of the ground path should be reduced, since the ground "connection" is effectively the whole area of the counterpoise, decreasing the loss due to this source. However, many experiments have shown that the resistance of the ground connection is only a minor factor in the overall losses in a small antenna like this one (3ohms is probably not that unrealistic), so I would expect little improvement overall. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29952 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2002 16:26:25 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 6 Jun 2002 16:26:25 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 13275 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2002 16:26:29 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 6 Jun 2002 16:26:29 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17G01v-00028t-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 17:22:31 +0100 Received: from tomts23.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.185] helo=tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17G01t-00028o-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 17:22:30 +0100 Received: from server1.sympatico.ca ([209.226.189.52]) by tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020606162226.JWUI17803.tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net@server1.sympatico.ca> for ; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 12:22:26 -0400 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606115959.02c1cca0@POP2.sympatico.ca> X-Sender: b1aemm59@POP2.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 12:21:13 -0400 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Larry Kayser" Subject: Re: LF: Programming !!!HELP!!! In-reply-to: <3.0.5.32.20020606150906.007f6680@pop3.esoterica.pt> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: and Brian Rogerson wrote: >QB45 Brian, finally something I can speak to. Yes Quick Basic 4.5 was pretty bad at handling serial communications. There were some "add in" software to make it minimally acceptable but they were usually very expensive and did not work that well. QB does work on COM1 and COM2 but you have to do a proper setup for each port. The information for doing that does not seem to be easily available..... I used to use a lot of Turbo Basic, the Borland package but it was certainly only barely better than the QB4.5. >A quick look at Visual Basic cut down v4 off the front of a >magazine circa 1995 talks about MSCOMM32. Further >a search of www turns up a vast array of information on the >deficiencies of VB and others in relation to serial communication. The serial coms in VB work excellently. I have my remote HF station, one version that runs under VB6 now, with five (5) serial ports running and I never have any problem with this software at all. VB AND ALL ITS LATENCY PROBLEMS IS TOTALLY UNSUITABLE FOR CW OPERATION. For other uses, such as digital modes, it is excellent and works exceedingly well. (We also use VB and coms in commercial software here and find it works excellently, as many as eight (8) ports full blast at 56K etc) When I speak above about VB being unsuitable for CW operation I mean for operation above 10 or 15 WPM and were full breakin or full duplex operation is contemplated. This is a matter of personal choice of course, there are some amateurs in the USA who consider that CW operation over the Internet using all Microsoft software is acceptable - something I consider more of a quaint novelty and a rather funny but very sick joke. So the issue is really what do you want to do with your computer driven system? PS, I have been plugging away here on using a few PIC 16F628 devices directly connected (in parallel on the incoming port) to a MODEM to control my remote HF station. They of course have, relative to any form of PC operating system, ZERO delay and latency. Assembler programming at this low level is not a lot of fun but one certainly can avoid Microsoft doing it this way hi. Larry VA3LK From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7122 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2002 16:07:27 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 6 Jun 2002 16:07:27 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 25990 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2002 16:06:57 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 6 Jun 2002 16:06:57 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FzX9-000220-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 16:50:43 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FzX8-00021t-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 16:50:42 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu07.dialup2.infomsk.ru [212.164.44.119]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA3cff83d249bb for ; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 22:46:26 +0700 (OSS) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 23:27:21 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Counterpoise Experiment In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605115057.00aa4808@gemini.herts.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Someone more... On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, James Moritz wrote: > > With no counterpoise, the antenna loss resistance at 136kHz was 37ohms. > With the counterpoise as above, Rloss dropped to 32ohms, a reduction of > about 14%. With antenna current of 5A, 1A (ie 20%) of RF current was > returned through the counterpoise. Part of current returning through groung is 4/5 = 0.8 And resistance 32/37=0.86 It seems if disconnect the ground loss resistance to be about ((0.86 - 0.8)/0.8)*37= 3 ohm!!! But it is worth to isolate TX box from antenna/conterpoise system by ferrite transformer. Loading coil should be in series with secondary (!!!) wire of transformer, not primary. 73 de RA9MB/Alex http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12677 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2002 15:44:29 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 6 Jun 2002 15:44:29 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 8949 invoked by uid 10001); 6 Jun 2002 15:48:18 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 6 Jun 2002 15:48:18 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FzDm-0001xJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 16:30:42 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FzDl-0001xB-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 16:30:41 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu07.dialup2.infomsk.ru [212.164.44.119]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA3cff7f8e479c for ; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 22:28:14 +0700 (OSS) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 23:09:09 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Counterpoise Experiment In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605115057.00aa4808@gemini.herts.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi James and Group. On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, James Moritz wrote: > With no counterpoise, the antenna loss resistance at 136kHz was 37ohms. > With the counterpoise as above, Rloss dropped to 32ohms, a reduction of > about 14%. What coil resistance You have? Or 37 ohm it is whithout coil resistance? > With antenna current of 5A, 1A (ie 20%) of RF current was > returned through the counterpoise. It seems to be much better if You will not use ground, conterpoise only. To reduce loss all the currend should return through conterpoise. In this case it is good to use ferrite transformer betwin TX and antenna to avoid HF voltage on TX box. 73 de RA9MB/Alex http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28948 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2002 15:37:16 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 6 Jun 2002 15:37:16 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 25390 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2002 15:37:19 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 6 Jun 2002 15:37:19 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FzEV-0001xQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 16:31:27 +0100 Received: from cmailenv1.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.53]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FzEU-0001xL-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 16:31:26 +0100 Received: from [62.21.144.180] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV1.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17FzER-0007ym-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 15:31:23 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606172449.00a46960@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 17:28:24 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: Re: LF: Counterpoise Experiment In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605115057.00aa4808@gemini.herts.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE

Jim, M0BMU wrote:

Over the weekend I put a temporary counterpoise under my antenna, to see how much effect it would have and make some rough measurements. The counterpoise consisted of 11 parallel insulated wires about 45m long, spaced about 1.2m, to make a rectangle 45m x 12m. These were supported at a height of about 2m above the ground, and virtually filled the garden. The antenna was my usual inverted L, currently at a mean height of about 9.5m and 40m long. Due to the position of the antenna in the garden, the layout is asymmetrical, with the counterpoise extending 3m to one side of the antenna, and 9m to the other side.

With no counterpoise, the antenna loss resistance at 136kHz was 37ohms. With the counterpoise as above, Rloss dropped to 32ohms, a reduction of about 14%. With antenna current of 5A, 1A (ie 20%) of RF current was returned through the counterpoise. Removing alternate counterpoise wires to increase the average spacing to 2.4m led to Rloss of 35ohms, and 12% of the antenna current flowing in the counterpoise. Reducing the counterpoise to 45m x 6m with 1.2m spacing of wires, located centrally under the antenna, led to Rloss of 34ohms and 12% of the antenna current in the counterpoise.

So a small reduction of loss was achieved by the counterpoise - it would seem likely that, if the area of the counterpoise was increased and the spacing of the wires reduced, a large reduction in loss could be achieved. The counterpoise acts like a screen between the field of the antenna and the lossy ground - however, since only a small fraction of the antenna current flowed in the counterpoise, it is clear that my counterpoise was only intercepting a small fraction of the total field of the antenna, so a much greater area would be required to produce a substantial efficiency improvement. If this greater area was available, a similar increase in efficiency could probably be more easily obtained by increasing the size of the antenna top loading, or a modest increase in height. In my case, a much more practical way of obtaining the same improvement in radiated power would be to increase the TX power by 14% - it really is very awkward having your whole garden covered in wires at head height!

Cheers, Jim Moritz
73 de M0BMU

As Jim no doubt knows the "standard" counterpoise, or radial system, for MF broadcast stations in the USA is 120 radials of a quarter wave length. This is what is probably required to collect all the current coming from the vertical.


73, Dick, PA0SE


 From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26924 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2002 15:15:47 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 6 Jun 2002 15:15:47 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 2807 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2002 15:15:18 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 6 Jun 2002 15:15:18 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Fyse-0001uE-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 16:08:52 +0100 Received: from iceman.esoterica.pt ([195.22.0.27]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Fysd-0001u9-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 16:08:51 +0100 Received: from srv17slx.esoterica.pt (srv17slx.esoterica.pt [195.22.0.47]) by iceman.esoterica.pt (8.12.3/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g56F7GNu005909 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:07:16 +0100 Received: from slave-6 (por195.esoterica.pt [195.22.5.195]) by srv17slx.esoterica.pt (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g56F8jX24707 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:08:45 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020606150906.007f6680@pop3.esoterica.pt> X-Sender: brian@pop3.esoterica.pt X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 15:09:06 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Brian Rogerson" Subject: LF: Programming !!!HELP!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello Group, Having assembled some hardware I am now trying to drive it from the Com port of a computer. I am not a programmer but have used QB45. I find that a simple QB45 routine will run under DOS: via COM1 at 9600Bd but not COM2 or at 19200Bd. I assume this to be a limitation of QB45 since the computer will successfully run a test proramme under DOS on both ports at both speeds. A quick look at Visual Basic cut down v4 off the front of a magazine circa 1995 talks about MSCOMM32. Further a search of www turns up a vast array of information on the deficiencies of VB and others in relation to serial communication. Is there a later version of QB45 or variant which will successfully run under 95/98/ME or new drivers which will allow QB45 to run? Is it time to forget QB45? If so which language should I start learning (has to be simple). Or is it time to change operating systems? Any advice would be gratefully received. 73, Brian 73 Brian CT1DRP IN51QD 41 09 58N 08 39 11W http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~brian From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16538 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2002 09:03:31 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 6 Jun 2002 09:03:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 20752 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2002 09:03:10 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 6 Jun 2002 09:03:10 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Ft3z-0001Bh-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 09:56:11 +0100 Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.42]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Ft3y-0001Bc-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 Jun 2002 09:56:10 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.104.99.68]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020606085608.QVVU4626.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:56:08 +0100 Message-ID: <001901c20d38$0a81bec0$446368d5@oemcomputer> From: "mike.dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605144754.00ba4008@pb623250.kuleuven.be> Subject: Re: LF: Counterpoise Experiment Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:56:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I also recently tried a counterpoise, consisting of two wires 18m long (the length of my top section) under the antenna and about 1m high. The difference was that I resonated it. It gave me slightly worse results than my earth stakes, but I assumed that more wires and lower loss coils would help. Like Rik, I noted that a reduction in effective height may be a slight problem. This is an area for more experimentation, but I agree with Jim that the inconvenience of low wires may make it difficult to justify. Mike, G3XDV http://www.lf.thersgb.net ==================== ON7YD wrote: > keep in mind that an elevated counterpoise will reduce the effective height > of the antenna (by "pulling up'' the RF ground level. > So a part of the improvement could be lost again due to the lower radiation > resistance of the antenna. M0BMU wrote: > >Over the weekend I put a temporary counterpoise under my antenna, to see > >how much effect it would have and make some rough measurements. The > >counterpoise consisted of 11 parallel insulated wires about 45m long, > >spaced about 1.2m, to make a rectangle 45m x 12m. These were supported at > >a height of about 2m above the ground, and virtually filled the garden. > >The antenna was my usual inverted L, currently at a mean height of about > >9.5m and 40m long. Due to the position of the antenna in the garden, the > >layout is asymmetrical, with the counterpoise extending 3m to one side of > >the antenna, and 9m to the other side. > > > >With no counterpoise, the antenna loss resistance at 136kHz was 37ohms. > >With the counterpoise as above, Rloss dropped to 32ohms, a reduction of > >about 14%. With antenna current of 5A, 1A (ie 20%) of RF current was > >returned through the counterpoise. Removing alternate counterpoise wires > >to increase the average spacing to 2.4m led to Rloss of 35ohms, and 12% of > >the antenna current flowing in the counterpoise. Reducing the counterpoise > >to 45m x 6m with 1.2m spacing of wires, located centrally under the > >antenna, led to Rloss of 34ohms and 12% of the antenna current in the > >counterpoise. > > > >So a small reduction of loss was achieved by the counterpoise - it would > >seem likely that, if the area of the counterpoise was increased and the > >spacing of the wires reduced, a large reduction in loss could be achieved. > >The counterpoise acts like a screen between the field of the antenna and > >the lossy ground - however, since only a small fraction of the antenna > >current flowed in the counterpoise, it is clear that my counterpoise was > >only intercepting a small fraction of the total field of the antenna, so a > >much greater area would be required to produce a substantial efficiency > >improvement. If this greater area was available, a similar increase in > >efficiency could probably be more easily obtained by increasing the size > >of the antenna top loading, or a modest increase in height. In my case, a > >much more practical way of obtaining the same improvement in radiated > >power would be to increase the TX power by 14% - it really is very awkward > >having your whole garden covered in wires at head height! From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22145 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2002 17:48:50 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by mailstore with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 17:48:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 6429 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2002 17:48:28 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 17:48:28 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Fep0-0007tr-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 18:43:46 +0100 Received: from carbon.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.92] helo=carbon) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Feoy-0007tm-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 18:43:44 +0100 Received: from host62-7-114-194.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.7.114.194] helo=main) by carbon with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17Feow-0004Gu-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 18:43:42 +0100 Message-ID: <000601c20cb8$791f37c0$c272073e@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: RE. Counterpoise Expt Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 14:46:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Jim, that was an interesting test. In a way you confirmed some ideas I have had from my tests, and also that Laurie has proposed. These are that the most important bit of 'ground' is directly under the wire. After comments in the discussion started by Alex and John, I went back to re-read the article in the Appendix of the new Handbook. One thing I found that had eluded me at the first read was that the maximum 'earth' current was under the remote end of the aerial. Although the test aerial was a sort of flat-top 'T' , the effect should be the same for an inverted 'L'. This surprised me initially until I realised that the remote end had the highest RF voltage. Meissner does not describe a counterpoise but multiple earth stakes, but I think the conclusions are still valid. It does suggest that the extent of the 'mat' at the far end is the most important , then getting the current back to the feed point. One 'worry' is that if only a small portion of the current flows in your counterpoise, where is the rest going? Simplistically if you consider the counterpoise and the natural ground in parallel, it suggests that the counterpoise 'resistance' is about 4 times the natural resistance. That doesnt seem sensible, so the only other thing can be that it is only intercepting 25% of the the 'lines of force' (Meissner's terminology). Another suggestion is that maybe you should connect the remote end of the counterpoise to earth stakes, to collect the ground current and conduct it efficiently back to the feed-point. The other worry is, " does putting a counterpoise at that height reduce the effective aerial height by 2 metres?". If so at low top heights it could be counter-productive. I suppose from another angle...you recorded a field strength of 6dB below the calculated value averaged over many readings. Maybe this means that half the current is diverted into environmental losses anyway. I am not sure whether I have all the measurements but I know that at one stage Finbar experimented by rolling out and removing an insulated wire counterpoise wire (on the ground) under his inverted 'L' (at that time) and it made little difference to the loss resistance measured. He does have quite a low value anyway anout 20 ohms. He found that increasing his aerial capacitance to 1050pF (from 550pF) dropped the loss resistance down to about 11ohms. I am just trying to sort through this set of measurements to add to my web site. Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 865 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2002 14:57:41 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 14:57:41 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 5482 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2002 14:57:16 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 14:57:16 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Fc3F-0007Tx-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 15:46:17 +0100 Received: from dc-mx03.cluster1.charter.net ([209.225.8.13]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Fc3E-0007Tr-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 15:46:16 +0100 Received: from [216.143.57.42] (HELO radioslow.highnoonfilm.com) by dc-mx03.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.9) with ESMTP id 21598943 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 10:45:42 -0400 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605093943.00a34460@pop3.norton.antivirus> X-Sender: les/highnoonfilm.com@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 09:45:44 -0500 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Les Rayburn" Subject: Re: LF: Counterpoise Experiment In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605144754.00ba4008@pb623250.kuleuven.be> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605115057.00aa4808@gemini.herts.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 15:11 6/5/02 +0200, you wrote: >Hello Jim, > >keep in mind that an elevated counterpoise will reduce the effective >height of the antenna (by "pulling up'' the RF ground level. >So a part of the improvement could be lost again due to the lower >radiation resistance of the antenna. >It is interesting to notice that the counterpoise increased the total >antenna current by 7.5% (32 Ohm vs 37 Ohm) while it takes 20% of the >current. Maybe it is a bit simplified, but based on that 20% one could >assume that the RF ground level was raised by 40cm (20% of 2m). >In that case the effective height would decrease from 9.5m to 9.1m (-0.37dB). >The increased current (7.5%) gave an improvement of 0.63dB, so the overall >gain could be as low as 0.26dB. > >It seems that an isolated counterpoise is only worth the effort with : >- high antennas (so the loss in effective height is minimal) >- a lot of space (and $$ to buy the wire) >- very tolerant XYL and neighbours > >73, Rik ON7YD I'll have to respectfully disagree with Rik on this one. There are lots of advantages to the use of counterpoises on LF. The biggest one being that the antenna is a lot more resistant to de-tuning from weather, dew, etc. Using high-Q coils, losses from even small amounts of de-tuning can be very high indeed. Also, I'm currently using a "stealth" counterpoise. Insulated #14 AWG house wiring has been stapled to the underside of my outdoor deck (which is very large). I've literally covered the bottom of the deck with wire. It is completely hidden from view, was much easier than attempting to bury wire, and the cost was minimal. Less than $50 dollars total by buying the wire on sale at home improvement stores. My tuning coil is mounted to a wooden post on the end of the deck, and a flattop three-wire vertical is positioned on two masts on opposite ends of my yard. All this on an average 1/4 acre lot. Performance is unchanged vs. my former extensive ground radial system which could only be used during the winter months. I'm a huge fan of counter-poises and think that more amateurs should give them a try. Since most of your losses occur at the base of the antenna and it's virtually impossible to lay down resonant radials at this frequency anyway, even small counterpoises can perform better than most ground radial systems within amateur limits. 73, Les Rayburn, N1LF Les Rayburn, N1LF Navy MARS NNNØHSI "Proudly Serving Those Who Serve" ------------------------------------------------------ 4919 Cox Cove Helena, AL 35080 Try the 1750 Meter Band: http://www.highnoonfilm.com/xmgr From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16659 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2002 13:17:29 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 13:17:29 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 21992 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2002 13:17:08 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 13:17:08 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FaXi-0007Fz-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 14:09:38 +0100 Received: from mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.50]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FaXh-0007Ft-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 14:09:37 +0100 Received: from dell-rik.fys.kuleuven.ac.be ([10.33.165.177]) by mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g55D93mE134104 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 15:09:04 +0200 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605144754.00ba4008@pb623250.kuleuven.be> X-Sender: pb623250@pb623250.kuleuven.be X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 15:11:31 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: Re: LF: Counterpoise Experiment In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605115057.00aa4808@gemini.herts.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello Jim, keep in mind that an elevated counterpoise will reduce the effective height of the antenna (by "pulling up'' the RF ground level. So a part of the improvement could be lost again due to the lower radiation resistance of the antenna. It is interesting to notice that the counterpoise increased the total antenna current by 7.5% (32 Ohm vs 37 Ohm) while it takes 20% of the current. Maybe it is a bit simplified, but based on that 20% one could assume that the RF ground level was raised by 40cm (20% of 2m). In that case the effective height would decrease from 9.5m to 9.1m (-0.37dB). The increased current (7.5%) gave an improvement of 0.63dB, so the overall gain could be as low as 0.26dB. It seems that an isolated counterpoise is only worth the effort with : - high antennas (so the loss in effective height is minimal) - a lot of space (and $$ to buy the wire) - very tolerant XYL and neighbours 73, Rik ON7YD At 12:51 5/06/2002 +0100, you wrote: >Dear LF Group, > >Over the weekend I put a temporary counterpoise under my antenna, to see >how much effect it would have and make some rough measurements. The >counterpoise consisted of 11 parallel insulated wires about 45m long, >spaced about 1.2m, to make a rectangle 45m x 12m. These were supported at >a height of about 2m above the ground, and virtually filled the garden. >The antenna was my usual inverted L, currently at a mean height of about >9.5m and 40m long. Due to the position of the antenna in the garden, the >layout is asymmetrical, with the counterpoise extending 3m to one side of >the antenna, and 9m to the other side. > >With no counterpoise, the antenna loss resistance at 136kHz was 37ohms. >With the counterpoise as above, Rloss dropped to 32ohms, a reduction of >about 14%. With antenna current of 5A, 1A (ie 20%) of RF current was >returned through the counterpoise. Removing alternate counterpoise wires >to increase the average spacing to 2.4m led to Rloss of 35ohms, and 12% of >the antenna current flowing in the counterpoise. Reducing the counterpoise >to 45m x 6m with 1.2m spacing of wires, located centrally under the >antenna, led to Rloss of 34ohms and 12% of the antenna current in the >counterpoise. > >So a small reduction of loss was achieved by the counterpoise - it would >seem likely that, if the area of the counterpoise was increased and the >spacing of the wires reduced, a large reduction in loss could be achieved. >The counterpoise acts like a screen between the field of the antenna and >the lossy ground - however, since only a small fraction of the antenna >current flowed in the counterpoise, it is clear that my counterpoise was >only intercepting a small fraction of the total field of the antenna, so a >much greater area would be required to produce a substantial efficiency >improvement. If this greater area was available, a similar increase in >efficiency could probably be more easily obtained by increasing the size >of the antenna top loading, or a modest increase in height. In my case, a >much more practical way of obtaining the same improvement in radiated >power would be to increase the TX power by 14% - it really is very awkward >having your whole garden covered in wires at head height! > >Cheers, Jim Moritz >73 de M0BMU > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2325 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2002 12:01:58 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by mailstore with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 12:01:58 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 23711 invoked by uid 10001); 5 Jun 2002 12:05:50 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 12:05:50 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FZLa-00074S-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:53:02 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FZLZ-00074N-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:53:01 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17FZLY-0003SJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:53:00 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17FZLU-0004M2-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:52:56 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605115057.00aa4808@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:51:47 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: LF: Counterpoise Experiment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF Group, Over the weekend I put a temporary counterpoise under my antenna, to see how much effect it would have and make some rough measurements. The counterpoise consisted of 11 parallel insulated wires about 45m long, spaced about 1.2m, to make a rectangle 45m x 12m. These were supported at a height of about 2m above the ground, and virtually filled the garden. The antenna was my usual inverted L, currently at a mean height of about 9.5m and 40m long. Due to the position of the antenna in the garden, the layout is asymmetrical, with the counterpoise extending 3m to one side of the antenna, and 9m to the other side. With no counterpoise, the antenna loss resistance at 136kHz was 37ohms. With the counterpoise as above, Rloss dropped to 32ohms, a reduction of about 14%. With antenna current of 5A, 1A (ie 20%) of RF current was returned through the counterpoise. Removing alternate counterpoise wires to increase the average spacing to 2.4m led to Rloss of 35ohms, and 12% of the antenna current flowing in the counterpoise. Reducing the counterpoise to 45m x 6m with 1.2m spacing of wires, located centrally under the antenna, led to Rloss of 34ohms and 12% of the antenna current in the counterpoise. So a small reduction of loss was achieved by the counterpoise - it would seem likely that, if the area of the counterpoise was increased and the spacing of the wires reduced, a large reduction in loss could be achieved. The counterpoise acts like a screen between the field of the antenna and the lossy ground - however, since only a small fraction of the antenna current flowed in the counterpoise, it is clear that my counterpoise was only intercepting a small fraction of the total field of the antenna, so a much greater area would be required to produce a substantial efficiency improvement. If this greater area was available, a similar increase in efficiency could probably be more easily obtained by increasing the size of the antenna top loading, or a modest increase in height. In my case, a much more practical way of obtaining the same improvement in radiated power would be to increase the TX power by 14% - it really is very awkward having your whole garden covered in wires at head height! Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4137 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2002 07:14:48 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by exhibition-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.HARL.plus.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 07:14:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 13444 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2002 07:14:17 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 07:14:17 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FUwl-0006T4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 08:11:07 +0100 Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.45]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FUwk-0006Sz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 08:11:06 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.104.96.182]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020605071104.MKGE2755.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 08:11:04 +0100 Message-ID: <000b01c20c60$36454be0$b66068d5@oemcomputer> From: "mike.dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: Re: LF: Activity 1-2 June Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 08:11:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > writes > > Tom, who is in Dublin, > > Must haver been an imposter. His name is Rod! Quite right. I must have been celebrating the Jubilee too much! Mike, G3XDV http://www.lf.thersgb.net ==================== From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12373 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2002 06:15:23 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from marstons.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.HARL.plus.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 06:15:23 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 21465 invoked by uid 10001); 5 Jun 2002 06:19:16 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 06:19:16 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FTwc-0006KW-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 07:06:54 +0100 Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.91]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FTwb-0006KR-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 07:06:53 +0100 Received: from telemetry.demon.co.uk ([194.222.19.114]) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17FTwX-000A6O-0X for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 07:06:49 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 06:44:19 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Tom Boucher" Subject: Re: LF: Activity 1-2 June In-reply-to: <000701c20bc9$636cc540$7d6868d5@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Trial Version 3.05 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: writes > Tom, who is in Dublin, Must haver been an imposter. His name is Rod! From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20939 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2002 21:05:45 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by equinox-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.HARL.plus.net with SMTP; 4 Jun 2002 21:05:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 22435 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2002 21:05:28 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 4 Jun 2002 21:05:28 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FLQZ-0005Aw-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 04 Jun 2002 22:01:15 +0100 Received: from mta3.snet.net ([204.60.203.69]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FLQY-0005Ar-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 04 Jun 2002 22:01:14 +0100 Received: from cianciolo (97.79.252.64.snet.net [64.252.79.97]) by mta3.snet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/SNET-smtp-1.2/D-1.1.1.1/O-1.1.1.1) with SMTP id g54KwfI5002187 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 16:58:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000b01c20c0b$86d3db80$6e01a8c0@cianciolo> From: "PC" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Who did the summer/winter noise comparsion? Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:05:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello Folks, I have done some searching but cannot find the data. Some one, I believe on this reflector had done some long term noise testing on the LF freq. during a summer and a winter. I remember seeing the graphs nicely done on a webpage comparing time (days, months) to noise reading. This was done on a selective voltmeter to the best of my knowledge. Can anyone point me in the direction of that page? Or perhaps has info on the test? Thank you This data may also be avaiable in another form such as Terman or Reference dta for engineers but I would like to compare thqat with the collected data. Seems that this data would also be very geograhically dependent Thank you PaulC W1VLF From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13588 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2002 13:26:22 -0000 Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by exhibition-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.HARL.plus.net with SMTP; 4 Jun 2002 13:26:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 6039 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2002 13:25:51 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 4 Jun 2002 13:25:51 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FE60-0003fg-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 04 Jun 2002 14:11:32 +0100 Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.43]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FE5z-0003fb-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 04 Jun 2002 14:11:31 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.104.104.125]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020604131129.YBJW295.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:11:29 +0100 Message-ID: <000701c20bc9$636cc540$7d6868d5@oemcomputer> From: "mike.dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Activity 1-2 June Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:11:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Despite the QRN, there has been some activity over the holiday weekend. CFH has been a good signal during part of the daytime so I suspect there has been a solar flare. Several Gs were using the temporary GQ prefix. The highlights are: On Sat 1 June, I heard DL3FDO giving 339 to an OE station who was just audible, but not readable, here. On Sun 2 June, I worked IK5ZPV, exchanging O/O reports on QRSS3. Also worked EI3CZ for the first time. Tom, who is in Dublin, runs 200W to an inverted-L 12m high and 40m long. Mike, G3XDV http://www.lf.thersgb.net ==================== From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17352 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2002 11:17:56 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.HARL.plus.net with SMTP; 2 Jun 2002 11:17:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 5825 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2002 11:17:34 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 2 Jun 2002 11:17:34 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ETEb-0006YU-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 02 Jun 2002 12:09:17 +0100 Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.42]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ETEa-0006YP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 02 Jun 2002 12:09:16 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.104.101.39]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020602110913.LLEK4626.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Sun, 2 Jun 2002 12:09:13 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c20a25$c305cc40$276568d5@oemcomputer> From: "mike.dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: GQ Prefix Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 12:08:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Some stations have appeared on the band this weekend using the prefx GQ. This prefix, as well as 2Q and MQ, may be used by British stations during June to celebrate the Golden Jubilee (50 years) of Queen Elizabeth II. English stations will add a Q to make GQ, MQ or 2Q. UK stations not in England will replace their regional identifier by a Q. For instance Scottish stations who normally use GM, MM or 2M, will change the M to Q, to make GQ, MQ or 2Q. It is therefore not possible to tell whether someone using GQ, MQ or 2Q is in England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, the Isle of Man. Jersey or Guernsey. Confused? I am. I keep forgetting to add the Q. Mike, G3XDV http://www.lf.thersgb.net ====================