From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18360 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2002 22:23:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2002 22:23:38 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 16307 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2002 18:50:33 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2002 18:50:33 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172dzo-00046f-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 21:13:08 +0100 Received: from mta3.snet.net ([204.60.203.69]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172dzm-00046a-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 21:13:07 +0100 Received: from snet.net (ptnm-sh9-port182.snet.net [204.60.199.182]) by mta3.snet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/SNET-smtp-1.2/D-1.1.1.1/O-1.1.1.1) with ESMTP id g3UIWt4E027058 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 14:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3CCEE415.7F0EB086@snet.net> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 14:36:05 -0400 From: "Jay Rusgrove" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: PA0LQ noise blanker References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430190557.00a2cb10@POP3.freeler.nl> Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Dick

I would also very much appreciate a copy of the noise blanker circuit.

Thank you.

Jay Rusgrove, W1VD

Dick Rollema wrote:

To All from PA0SE

Now that interest is shown in the PA0LQ audio noise blanker I will translate the article into English and send it by direct e-mail to those who requested it. It may take a few days.

73, Dick, PA0SE

From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28748 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2002 22:03:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2002 22:03:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 17076 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2002 18:17:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2002 18:17:10 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172deg-00041T-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 20:51:18 +0100 Received: from irwell.zetnet.co.uk ([194.247.47.48] helo=zetnet.co.uk ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172dee-00041O-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 20:51:17 +0100 Received: from a7j7r2 (bts-0376.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.49.120]) by zetnet.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id g3UIDAT09658 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 19:13:10 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c1f072$979d7020$7831f7c2@a7j7r2> From: "John Rabson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430145204.00a25a60@POP3.freeler.nl> Subject: LF: Re: Mains QRM blanker by PA0LQ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 17:22:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Yes please. Could it be adapted for Loran blanking? Regards, John Rabson G3PAI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Rollema" > ... If there is interest I am willing to translate the text into English and > send text and circuit diagram by e-mail to anyone requesting it. Or perhaps > it could be placed on a website. > But before taking action I await responses. > > 73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2739 invoked from network); 31 May 2002 19:05:50 -0000 Received: from warrior.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.227) by equinox-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.HARL.plus.net with SMTP; 31 May 2002 19:05:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 16077 invoked from network); 31 May 2002 19:05:30 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 31 May 2002 19:05:30 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DraB-0000Wm-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 31 May 2002 19:57:03 +0100 Received: from [213.4.129.135] (helo=tnetmx2.mail.isp) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DraA-0000Wg-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 31 May 2002 19:57:02 +0100 Received: from ADSL ([217.127.130.21]) by tnetmx2.mail.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15 tnetmx2 Mar 14 2002 21:29:48) with ESMTP id GWZO4E01.OC0 for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 20:45:50 +0200 Message-ID: <000001c208d3$fb6c5de0$0501a8c0@ADSL> From: "Federico Olaizola Zabala" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <01C20622.0EF49580.g4jnt@thersgb.net> Subject: Re: LF: Decca component Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 09:12:03 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy talbot" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 9:31 AM Subject: RE: LF: Decca component > Metal Oxide Varistor. An overlaod and transient protection device. > > Andy G4JNT > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Boucher [SMTP:tom@telemetry.demon.co.uk] > Sent: 2002/05/28 06:46 > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Subject: Re: LF: Decca component > > writes > > (which I now know to be a MOV) > > What's an 'MOV'? > > See info in www.geindustrial.com/cwc/library?famid=37 73 de Federico EA2HB From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29766 invoked from network); 31 May 2002 10:24:11 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 31 May 2002 10:24:11 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 18545 invoked by uid 10001); 31 May 2002 10:28:03 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 31 May 2002 10:28:03 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DjHb-00017u-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 31 May 2002 11:05:19 +0100 Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.92]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DjHa-00017o-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 31 May 2002 11:05:18 +0100 Received: from telemetry.demon.co.uk ([194.222.19.114]) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17DjHP-000GTQ-0Y for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 31 May 2002 11:05:08 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 08:54:05 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Tom Boucher" Subject: Re: LF: Decca component In-reply-to: <11c.11de4ef1.2a280dd0@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.03a Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I reckon the use of those 'MOV's in the Decca is a bit belt-and-braces anyway because both output ports are diode clamped to positive and negative rails. Maybe they are faster than the diodes and protect against fast spikes. Cheers, Tom G3OLB G0MRF wrote: > >It should be possible to determine the voltage rating of the MOV from the >manufacturers part number in the Decca manual. If the original part is not >available I wonder if its possible to remove a working unit from one of the >other modules and measure its capacitance and compare the value against a >potential replacement. Hopefully minor differencies would not be critical as >the MOV is in part of the circuit operating in class D and there should be >sufficient drive to mask small changes in capacitance. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8649 invoked from network); 30 May 2002 23:40:26 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2002 23:40:26 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 1028 invoked from network); 30 May 2002 23:40:02 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2002 23:40:02 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DZRl-0000an-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 31 May 2002 00:35:09 +0100 Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.93] helo=anchor-fallback-93.mail.demon.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DZRk-0000ad-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 31 May 2002 00:35:08 +0100 Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.89]) by anchor-fallback-93.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17DZRi-000BJM-M9 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 31 May 2002 00:35:06 +0100 Received: from telemetry.demon.co.uk ([194.222.19.114]) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17CEIX-0009mY-0V for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 May 2002 07:48:05 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 07:47:08 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Tom Boucher" Subject: Re: LF: Re: Decca component In-reply-to: <78.272cf65d.2a228fb5@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Trial Version 3.05 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Mike Further to my previous message, my full-bridge PA uses 500 volt FETs (STW20NB50) and runs with a supply of 80 volts on load, 100V off load, so you may want to use a slightly lower voltage varistor for your 67 volt unit. I cannot find any details of the IRF250s used by Decca so don't know what its max voltage rating is. Farnell sell a whole range of varistors and there are 170V (P/No.502-145) and 180V (752-526) versions of the ones I used available. Cheers, Tom G3OLB From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3944 invoked from network); 30 May 2002 23:24:52 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2002 23:24:52 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 16637 invoked from network); 30 May 2002 23:24:30 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2002 23:24:30 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DZE8-0000Me-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 31 May 2002 00:21:04 +0100 Received: from imo-m10.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.165]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DZE7-0000MR-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 31 May 2002 00:21:03 +0100 Received: from G0MRF@aol.com by imo-m10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.11c.11de4ef1 (4248) for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 19:20:48 -0400 (EDT) From: G0MRF@aol.com Message-ID: <11c.11de4ef1.2a280dd0@aol.com> Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 19:20:48 EDT Subject: Re: LF: Decca component To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows UK sub 10512 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit In a message dated 5/30/02 11:30:54 PM GMT Daylight Time, Datter@btinternet.com writes:


Mike,

I collected 4 spare IRF250 power Mosfets for the Decca TX from the Crawley
Club at the meeting last night and will stick them in the post to you
soonest. I was unable however to find among the remaining bits and pieces
one of the protective MOV devices but similar ones are available from RS or
Farnell distributors

                                       73,  de  Derek Atter,  G3GRO



It should be possible to determine the voltage rating of the MOV from the manufacturers part number in the Decca manual. If the original part is not available I wonder if its possible to remove a working unit from one of the other modules and measure its capacitance and compare the value against a potential replacement. Hopefully minor differencies would not be critical as the MOV is in part of the circuit operating in class D and there should be sufficient drive to mask small changes in capacitance. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15328 invoked from network); 30 May 2002 22:32:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2002 22:32:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 2438 invoked from network); 30 May 2002 22:31:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2002 22:31:58 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DYOx-0007v3-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 30 May 2002 23:28:11 +0100 Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.176]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DYOw-0007ux-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 30 May 2002 23:28:10 +0100 Received: from host213-1-155-41.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.1.155.41] helo=j1r9b7) by protactinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17DYOt-0004Ak-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 30 May 2002 23:28:08 +0100 Message-ID: <000e01c20829$028754a0$299b01d5@j1r9b7> From: "Derek Atter" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <137.eac8555.2a22c8c8@aol.com> <001d01c2059d$19506a20$246468d5@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: LF: Decca component Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 23:09:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Mike, I collected 4 spare IRF250 power Mosfets for the Decca TX from the Crawley Club at the meeting last night and will stick them in the post to you soonest. I was unable however to find among the remaining bits and pieces one of the protective MOV devices but similar ones are available from RS or Farnell distributors 73, de Derek Atter, G3GRO ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike.dennison" To: Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 5:39 PM Subject: Re: LF: Decca component > Thank you to all those who have commented on my Decca Tx unit failure. As > the Tx has three units, and two are still working, I was able to compare > good with bad. This resulted in finding two faulty transistors, one open > circuit and one short circuit. Amazingly, the unit still gives 100W or so > output. Obviously the burnt component (which I now know to be a MOV) failed > at the same time. > > Thanks to Derek, G3GRO, and the Crawley Club, I should have replacements > soon. In the meantime, the other two units are giving me a few hundred > watts. > > > Mike, G3XDV > http://www.lf.thersgb.net > ==================== > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9439 invoked from network); 30 May 2002 17:46:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2002 17:46:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 22414 invoked from network); 30 May 2002 17:45:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2002 17:45:57 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DTsL-0002z5-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 30 May 2002 18:38:13 +0100 Received: from mta4-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.44]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DTsK-0002yz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 30 May 2002 18:38:12 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.209.42]) by mta4-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020530173808.QPFT29003.mta4-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 18:38:08 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c20800$e6468a40$2ad1fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: LF: Re: RE: PART 2 Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 13:36:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
 
----- Original Message -----
From: WE0H
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:55 PM
Subject: LF: RE: PART 2

Hi Mal,

It won’t be that bad. Have any of the European signals been heard in the middle of the US before??? What is the direction in degrees from the central US to England??? My loop runs NNW/SSE and I don’t know if it would be pointing in the right direction for Europe.

73’s,

Mike>WE0H

 

Hello Mike

 

If the info contained in the Callbook, locators, qth etc are correct then your azimouth from me is 302.3 degs and 6235.8 km, from you 122.3 degs towards me, so your loop direction to EU is not too bad. 

The nearest my signal got to you last winter was W9, and often seen in W1, W4 and W3 and VE1. I also had several xband qso's with W1, W4 and VE1 and at speeds as fast as 2 sec dot, all solid copy.

There should be a lot of excitement later on this year when the band opens up now you boys are operational also on 136 khz. Transatlantic qso's galore!!

 

73 and gl de Mal/G3KEV

http://www.geocities.com/we0h/lf.html

 

-----Original Message-----
From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of hamilton mal
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 1:07 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: PART 2

 

USA on fire.

Started by a 47.4 amp spark exciting a LOOP coupled to a FOREST

 

de G3KEV

 

 

From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27383 invoked from network); 30 May 2002 05:14:42 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2002 05:14:42 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 5653 invoked from network); 30 May 2002 05:14:17 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2002 05:14:17 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DH2F-00018S-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 30 May 2002 04:55:35 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DH2E-00018N-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 30 May 2002 04:55:34 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 24928 invoked from network); 30 May 2002 03:55:31 -0000 Received: from merimac.us.gases.boc.com (HELO merimac) (204.149.80.4) by server-2.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 30 May 2002 03:55:31 -0000 Received: by EXC_WIL04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 30 May 2002 00:03:44 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Loop Amperage ~~~~~~ Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 23:44:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Couple of addendum's to my earlier post: >The ERP for 1w of input is now 81mw. To reach a 1w ERP the current multiplier will need to be >only 1/.081 = 12.3 X 1.5 = 18.5A. It should be sq rt(1/.081) yielding only 3.51 X 1.5 = 5.3A for the 450ft wide loop to produce an ERP of 1w. The power input would be only I^2 x R = 28 x 3.42 = 99w. (Think there is a small error in this calculation and should be closer to 110w) So the increased size does make a lot of difference! Rik Strobbe, however, pointed out the importance of taking into account the radiation resistance difference between 185k and 136k, which is a forth power effect for loop antennas. (185/136)^4 = 3.42. So the radiation resistance, hence the radiated power, must be lowered by this factor. My big loop at 100w would only produce .9/3.42 = .26w ERP at 136k ........ (Darn!). But to be fair, the vertical has a (185/136)^2 = 1.85 radiation resistance factor and that does give the vertical a 2.67db advantage over the loop between the two bands. So back to the original question about the input power needed to reach 1w ERP (at 136k): That would be 3.42 x 110w = 376w. The current in the loop based on a Rac of 3.5 ohms would be 10.4A. Here's the numbers for a low cost Europeon #12 AWG loop at 136k (where the input limit is 1KW): Rac total for a 450'x50' loop = 10.5 ohms. At a 1w input the loop current is sq rt(1/10.5) = .31A. The ERP is 12.3 x 10^-3 x .31^2 = 1.18mw. In order to reach an ERP of 1w the input power will need to be 1/.00118 = 848w. The loop current to develop 848w is sq rt (848/10.5) = 9.0A. So put away the fire hose! Bill A _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25541 invoked from network); 30 May 2002 01:04:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2002 01:04:26 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 28944 invoked by uid 10001); 30 May 2002 01:08:18 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2002 01:08:18 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DEIV-0007eM-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 30 May 2002 02:00:11 +0100 Received: from imo-r09.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.105]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DEIU-0007dV-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 30 May 2002 02:00:10 +0100 Received: from WarmSpgs@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.de.27c28781 (3842) for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 20:59:32 -0400 (EDT) From: WarmSpgs@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 20:59:32 EDT Subject: Re: LF: PART 2 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: In a message dated 5/29/02 2:10:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, g3kev.ham@virgin.net writes: << USA on fire. Started by a 47.4 amp spark exciting a LOOP coupled to a FOREST >> Aw shucks, as they say down in Texas, we've already got more sources of ignition in the States than you can shake a matchstick at. One thing we _don't_ have, though, is rules that will allow us to run more than 100W TPO in the first place. So I don't see much danger here. 73, John From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28034 invoked from network); 29 May 2002 20:58:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2002 20:58:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 11717 invoked by uid 10001); 29 May 2002 21:02:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2002 21:02:08 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DATE-0004YB-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 29 May 2002 21:55:00 +0100 Received: from mail5.mx.voyager.net ([216.93.66.204]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DATD-0004Xz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 29 May 2002 21:54:59 +0100 Received: from k6500 (d14.as3.mpls.mn.voyager.net [169.207.249.238] (may be forged)) by mail5.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id g4TKssS91118 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 16:54:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "WE0H" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: PART 2 Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 15:55:04 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: <001401c2073b$ab9c3040$2ccdfc3e@l8p8y6> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit

Hi Mal,

It won’t be that bad. Have any of the European signals been heard in the middle of the US before??? What is the direction in degrees from the central US to England??? My loop runs NNW/SSE and I don’t know if it would be pointing in the right direction for Europe.

73’s,

Mike>WE0H

http://www.geocities.com/we0h/lf.html

 

-----Original Message-----
From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of hamilton mal
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 1:07 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: PART 2

 

USA on fire.

Started by a 47.4 amp spark exciting a LOOP coupled to a FOREST

 

de G3KEV

 

 

From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12800 invoked from network); 29 May 2002 18:14:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2002 18:14:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 10101 invoked from network); 29 May 2002 18:14:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2002 18:14:07 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17D7q1-00025j-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 29 May 2002 19:06:21 +0100 Received: from mta3-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.43]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17D7q0-00025b-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 29 May 2002 19:06:20 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.205.44]) by mta3-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020529180617.INSI24398.mta3-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 19:06:17 +0100 Message-ID: <001401c2073b$ab9c3040$2ccdfc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: PART 2 Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 19:06:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
USA on fire.
Started by a 47.4 amp spark exciting a LOOP coupled to a FOREST
 
de G3KEV
 
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6701 invoked from network); 29 May 2002 09:42:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2002 09:42:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 13532 invoked by uid 10001); 29 May 2002 09:46:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2002 09:46:26 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CzuC-00034z-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 29 May 2002 10:38:08 +0100 Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au ([203.26.10.16]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CzuA-00034u-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 29 May 2002 10:38:07 +0100 Received: from steve (ppp158.dyn154.pacific.net.au [210.23.154.158]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09206 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 19:37:55 +1000 Message-ID: <001601c206f4$ca650480$9e9a17d2@steve> From: "Steve Olney" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: LF: Re: Loop Amperage ~~~~~~ Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 19:39:47 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: G'day Bill, > > Don't see a problem here. > Could even be a good perch for the birds in the winter? > Dave ZL3FJ has been running a loop for quite a few years now with 800W PEP which gives a peak of around 30A. No reports of any problems that I have heard. It is run from a suburban backyard and is about 25 feet high by 50 foot long. It uses 2 conductors of 7/1.5mm aluminium in parallel and has an inductance of about 64uH. Series tuned by about 15nF. 73s Steve VK2ZTO From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20853 invoked from network); 29 May 2002 02:58:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2002 02:58:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 5296 invoked from network); 29 May 2002 02:58:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2002 02:58:22 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CtdC-0005dq-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 29 May 2002 03:56:10 +0100 Received: from mail2.mx.voyager.net ([216.93.66.201]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CtdA-0005dg-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 29 May 2002 03:56:08 +0100 Received: from k6500 (d5.as3.mpls.mn.voyager.net [169.207.249.229] (may be forged)) by mail2.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id g4T2u5O82745 for ; Tue, 28 May 2002 22:56:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "WE0H" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Loop Amperage ~~~~~~ Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 21:56:09 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Bill, That looks like a piece of cake to me also. I could make my lower run out of 1/2" copper pipe, but the vertical sections and top run would have to be wire of whatever gauge that would support the current. When is your second edition Loop book coming out??? Your first one was absolutely an awesome read. 73's, Mike>WE0H http://www.geocities.com/we0h/lf.html -----Original Message----- From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of Ashlock,William Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 6:16 PM To: 'rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org' Subject: LF: Loop Amperage ~~~~~~ Hi 136-ers, >Everyone in EU is screaming to the ARRL and the FCC to permit you folks to use 1W erp. I have >calculated the amperage to your loop to achieve this 1W erp and the figures >frighten me. You said your loop was suspended amongst trees and I would say >with this high amperage I will be able to see your smoke signals before I >hear you signal. Let us have your calculated antenna amperage to see if my >figures compare? Well let's see...... I presently have ~1w input into the loop and the current is ~1.5A. If I go to an input of 100w the current will be sq rt 100 x 1.5 = 15A. From a 'wasted power' standpoint the loop is a big 100w wire wound resistor covering 50'x 50' = 2500 sq ft. Don't see a problem here. Could even be a good perch for the birds in the winter? The present ERP with a 1w input is about 1mw (according to the radiation resistance formula that I like the best). I would therefore have to run 1KW to produce a 1w ERP and a current of sq rt 1000 = 31.6 X 1.5A = 47.4A . Well, yes, that frightens me too. BUT..... If I utilize my 450ft wide back woods the situation improves. The radiation resistance goes up to the square of the loop area gain to 81X. The ERP for 1w of input is now 81mw. To reach a 1w ERP the current multiplier will need to be only 1/.081 = 12.3 X 1.5 = 18.5A. The actual input power for this loop will depend on the conductor used. I calculate the total Rac (including soil loss) would have to be 2.92 ohms minimum for an input power of 1KW, and 18.5A, and this would be equivalent to a 2.92/9 = .325 ohm Rac with a 50'x50' loop. (So my 4 x #12 Litz conductor or a 1/2" Cu pipe would be required...... not cheep!) So, it appears that all I am doing, when power limited like this, is to spread out the 1KW power loss over a larger portion of the back woods! But at least it's doable. Comments, please. Bill A _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20997 invoked from network); 29 May 2002 02:16:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2002 02:16:50 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 24529 invoked by uid 10001); 29 May 2002 02:20:41 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2002 02:20:41 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CsuM-0004v6-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 29 May 2002 03:09:50 +0100 Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.7]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CsuL-0004uZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 29 May 2002 03:09:49 +0100 Received: from WarmSpgs@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.cf.17be8c09 (4242) for ; Tue, 28 May 2002 22:09:09 -0400 (EDT) From: WarmSpgs@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 22:09:09 EDT Subject: Re: LF: Loop Amperage ~~~~~~ To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: In a message dated 5/28/02 7:30:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, William.Ashlock@edwards.boc.com writes: << So, it appears that all I am doing, when power limited like this, is to spread out the 1KW power loss over a larger portion of the back woods! But at least it's doable. Comments, please. >> Do-able, but hopefully with less loss, given that it appears we'll be stuck with a 100 watt TPO limit instead of 1 kw. And, unless some of the commenters make some very persuasive arguments, we'll be stuck with 1 w EIRP, rather than 1 w ERP...a very significant 2+ db difference. 73, John From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17344 invoked from network); 29 May 2002 02:14:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2002 02:14:15 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 10352 invoked from network); 29 May 2002 02:13:51 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2002 02:13:51 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Csqq-0004re-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 29 May 2002 03:06:12 +0100 Received: from imo-r01.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.97]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Csqp-0004r7-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 29 May 2002 03:06:11 +0100 Received: from WarmSpgs@aol.com by imo-r01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.182.8f7f3e9 (4242) for ; Tue, 28 May 2002 22:05:33 -0400 (EDT) From: WarmSpgs@aol.com Message-ID: <182.8f7f3e9.2a25916c@aol.com> Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 22:05:32 EDT Subject: Re: LF: Loop Amperage ~~~~~~ To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: In a message dated 5/28/02 7:30:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, William.Ashlock@edwards.boc.com writes: << So, it appears that all I am doing, when power limited like this, is to spread out the 1KW power loss over a larger portion of the back woods! But at least it's doable. Comments, please. >> From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10466 invoked from network); 28 May 2002 23:30:38 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2002 23:30:38 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 10334 invoked by uid 10001); 28 May 2002 23:34:29 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2002 23:34:29 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CqM5-0002ns-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 29 May 2002 00:26:17 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CqM4-0002nn-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 29 May 2002 00:26:16 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 29651 invoked from network); 28 May 2002 23:26:14 -0000 Received: from merimac.us.gases.boc.com (HELO merimac) (204.149.80.4) by server-8.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 28 May 2002 23:26:14 -0000 Received: by EXC_WIL04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 28 May 2002 19:34:19 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Loop Amperage ~~~~~~ Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 19:15:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi 136-ers, >Everyone in EU is screaming to the ARRL and the FCC to permit you folks to use 1W erp. I have >calculated the amperage to your loop to achieve this 1W erp and the figures >frighten me. You said your loop was suspended amongst trees and I would say >with this high amperage I will be able to see your smoke signals before I >hear you signal. Let us have your calculated antenna amperage to see if my >figures compare? Well let's see...... I presently have ~1w input into the loop and the current is ~1.5A. If I go to an input of 100w the current will be sq rt 100 x 1.5 = 15A. From a 'wasted power' standpoint the loop is a big 100w wire wound resistor covering 50'x 50' = 2500 sq ft. Don't see a problem here. Could even be a good perch for the birds in the winter? The present ERP with a 1w input is about 1mw (according to the radiation resistance formula that I like the best). I would therefore have to run 1KW to produce a 1w ERP and a current of sq rt 1000 = 31.6 X 1.5A = 47.4A . Well, yes, that frightens me too. BUT..... If I utilize my 450ft wide back woods the situation improves. The radiation resistance goes up to the square of the loop area gain to 81X. The ERP for 1w of input is now 81mw. To reach a 1w ERP the current multiplier will need to be only 1/.081 = 12.3 X 1.5 = 18.5A. The actual input power for this loop will depend on the conductor used. I calculate the total Rac (including soil loss) would have to be 2.92 ohms minimum for an input power of 1KW, and 18.5A, and this would be equivalent to a 2.92/9 = .325 ohm Rac with a 50'x50' loop. (So my 4 x #12 Litz conductor or a 1/2" Cu pipe would be required...... not cheep!) So, it appears that all I am doing, when power limited like this, is to spread out the 1KW power loss over a larger portion of the back woods! But at least it's doable. Comments, please. Bill A _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17357 invoked from network); 28 May 2002 22:05:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2002 22:05:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 5693 invoked from network); 28 May 2002 22:04:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2002 22:04:56 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Cozs-0001Hk-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 22:59:16 +0100 Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.111]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Cozr-0001Hf-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 22:59:15 +0100 Received: from host62-7-7-221.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.7.7.221] helo=main) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17Cozp-0000Yk-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 22:59:13 +0100 Message-ID: <000401c20692$e1ce9800$dd07073e@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: DCF39....thanks Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 20:40:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi and Thanks to all who provided information on levels of DCF39. It may have returned during the day, so all I can do is wait to see Brian's log for the period from 0600z today. All very puzzling. Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12014 invoked from network); 28 May 2002 18:12:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2002 18:12:55 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 11868 invoked from network); 28 May 2002 18:12:33 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2002 18:12:33 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ClPp-0005vX-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 19:09:49 +0100 Received: from cmailenv2.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.54]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ClPo-0005vS-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 19:09:48 +0100 Received: from [62.21.129.232] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV2.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17ClPl-0005P0-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 18:09:46 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020528200753.00a4d310@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 20:10:12 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: Re: LF: DCF39 ...on low power ?? In-reply-to: <000001c20632$18cb3fe0$4733073e@main> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE

Alan, G3NYK wrote:


Hi all, can someone nearer the site of our 'friendly' utility station please
confirm (or refute !) that either transmission has been taken over by
another site, or that the power has been reduced.  Brian ICT1DRP) is seeing
about a 6dB drop in signal which happened suddenly on Sunday morning, and
has not yet returned. It is not a problem at Brian's site as all other
channels on the logger are showing normal levels.

I measure the usual field strength at my QTH: just over 2 mV/m.

73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8429 invoked from network); 28 May 2002 16:54:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2002 16:54:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 23166 invoked from network); 28 May 2002 16:53:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2002 16:53:58 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CkC1-0004e3-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 17:51:29 +0100 Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.41]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CkC0-0004dx-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 17:51:28 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.104.100.9]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020528165126.KVQR28297.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Tue, 28 May 2002 17:51:26 +0100 Message-ID: <000501c20667$f4442520$096468d5@oemcomputer> From: "mike.dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <200205281224_MC3-FFDE-66AB@compuserve.com> Subject: LF: Re: DCF39 ...on low power ?? Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 17:51:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: DCF39 is here -23.7 dBu on my 18m umbrella antenna today, which is as strong as usual. Geri, DK8KW (W1KW) DCF39 seems approx 10dB lower with me today. Mike, G3XDV http://www.lf.thersgb.net ==================== From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2294 invoked from network); 28 May 2002 16:39:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2002 16:39:32 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 11874 invoked from network); 28 May 2002 16:39:15 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2002 16:39:15 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CjmW-0004Be-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 17:25:08 +0100 Received: from siaag1ab.compuserve.com ([149.174.40.4]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CjmV-0004BY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 17:25:07 +0100 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by siaag1ab.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.12) id MAA12994 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 12:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 12:24:32 -0400 From: "'Geri' Kinzel, DK8KW" Subject: LF: DCF39 ...on low power ?? To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: <200205281224_MC3-FFDE-66AB@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello Alan, DCF39 is here -23.7 dBu on my 18m umbrella antenna today, which is as strong as usual. Vy 73 Geri, DK8KW (W1KW) From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 112 invoked from network); 28 May 2002 10:31:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2002 10:31:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 23412 invoked from network); 28 May 2002 10:31:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2002 10:31:33 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CeBO-00072G-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 11:26:26 +0100 Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.111]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CeBN-000727-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 11:26:25 +0100 Received: from host62-7-51-71.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.7.51.71] helo=main) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17CeBL-00073E-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 11:26:23 +0100 Message-ID: <000001c20632$18cb3fe0$4733073e@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: DCF39 ...on low power ?? Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 08:58:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, can someone nearer the site of our 'friendly' utility station please confirm (or refute !) that either transmission has been taken over by another site, or that the power has been reduced. Brian ICT1DRP) is seeing about a 6dB drop in signal which happened suddenly on Sunday morning, and has not yet returned. It is not a problem at Brian's site as all other channels on the logger are showing normal levels. Thanks and Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2958 invoked from network); 28 May 2002 07:35:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2002 07:35:44 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: High Received: (qmail 14130 invoked from network); 28 May 2002 07:35:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2002 07:35:27 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CbTl-0004JS-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 08:33:13 +0100 Received: from smtp-1.visp.telinco.net ([212.1.130.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CbTj-0004JI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 08:33:12 +0100 Received: from [212.1.137.170] (helo=standalone) by smtp-1.visp.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.32 #1) id 17Cb9p-0008P3-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 08:12:38 +0100 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 28 May 2002 08:31:26 +0100 Message-ID: <01C20622.0EF49580.g4jnt@thersgb.net> From: "Andy talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Decca component Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 08:31:22 +0100 Importance: high X-Priority: 1 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Metal Oxide Varistor. An overlaod and transient protection device. Andy G4JNT -----Original Message----- From: Tom Boucher [SMTP:tom@telemetry.demon.co.uk] Sent: 2002/05/28 06:46 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Decca component writes > (which I now know to be a MOV) What's an 'MOV'? From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17336 invoked from network); 28 May 2002 05:58:36 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2002 05:58:36 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 22323 invoked by uid 10001); 28 May 2002 06:02:33 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2002 06:02:33 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CZpY-0002gg-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 06:47:36 +0100 Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CZpX-0002gb-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 06:47:35 +0100 Received: from telemetry.demon.co.uk ([194.222.19.114]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17CZpV-000Ic3-0W for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 May 2002 06:47:34 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 06:46:14 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Tom Boucher" Subject: Re: LF: Decca component In-reply-to: <001d01c2059d$19506a20$246468d5@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Trial Version 3.05 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: writes > (which I now know to be a MOV) What's an 'MOV'? From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20544 invoked from network); 27 May 2002 20:54:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2002 20:54:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 9132 invoked from network); 27 May 2002 20:54:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2002 20:54:21 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CRO3-0003vb-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 May 2002 21:46:39 +0100 Received: from www.gardaol.com ([195.223.232.51] helo=netregister.it ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CRO1-0003vP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 May 2002 21:46:37 +0100 Received: from ik2dedlibero (brescia22.phoenix.it [213.82.97.86]) by netregister.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g4RKkXv10514 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 22:46:33 +0200 Message-ID: <003701c1e058$56fc3e40$566152d5@it> From: "Giulio Scaroni" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Circuit for LF and not only, beacon. Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 08:24:15 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hello to all the Lowfers,
 
i am a little off air for job problem, so hope to be soon in air on 136.
Well here in Italy, with Associazione Radioamatori Italiani, the ARI, we are planning to put in air a beacon in LF for improve activity in Italy and Mediterranean country.
So the beacon will trasmitt in aural CW at about 10 wpm, then in qrss3 with 3 different power level, 0 dB, -10 db, -20, -30 db, may be that also dfcw will be implemented.
The frequency will be around 135.7 - 135.8 Khz, and the stability of the sistem will be provided by a rubidium atomic source.
So we think that a beacon like this may be received from station that not work in qrss for first receiving experiments in LF, and for station that work in qrss this will help to improve the receiving station, with the 3 different power level.
Hope also to capture some interest with OM in former YU country, and also south Italy and IT9 -IS0.
This will be also good for check the frequency drift of receiving sistem, like is loocked to a rubidium source.
So this is only an idea now, but we are working around, the CW source, made with a programmable PIC, is at this web address,
 
73 to all de Giulio IK2DED.
 
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14512 invoked from network); 27 May 2002 17:34:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2002 17:34:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 26625 invoked from network); 27 May 2002 17:34:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2002 17:34:19 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CO4a-0000ph-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 May 2002 18:14:20 +0100 Received: from durendal.skynet.be ([195.238.3.91]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CO4Y-0000pW-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 May 2002 18:14:18 +0100 Received: from mh70i ([62.4.216.127]) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with SMTP id g4RHDtU11150 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 19:13:56 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Message-ID: <000d01c205a2$0c12e180$7fd8043e@mh70i> From: "DE BONDT WERNER" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: LF: Re: AW: alpha signals Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 19:15:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hallo all
 
Alpha signals are agn in the air
But no lowfers !!!!!
 
73 to all ON6ND
Werner
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 8:15 AM
Subject: LF: AW: alpha signals

Hello group,
 
last year I receivd alpha whith my equipment  (NE 602- converter and 6m vertikal) , last week absolutly nothing, change antenna to loop: absolutly nothing. I think it is out.
 
Eberhard
LWL,    JO53PO
new in the group
-----Ursprьngliche Nachricht-----
Von: SOMMEREYNS RUDDY [mailto:ruddy.sommereyns@belgacom.net]
Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Mai 2002 15:27
An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Betreff: LF: alpha signals

Hello All,
 
I have a question: Are the Alpha signals at 11.905 kc and 12.649 still on the air ??? Used to receive them very good but since a couple of weeks I do not hear them anymore.
( Same story at location of ON6ND, Werner, who lives about 3 km from my QTH).
All info welcome. Thanks.
 
Ruddy
ON6UX
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9454 invoked from network); 27 May 2002 16:50:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2002 16:50:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 25704 invoked from network); 27 May 2002 16:50:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2002 16:50:02 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CNWo-0000HN-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 May 2002 17:39:26 +0100 Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.41]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CNWn-0000HI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 May 2002 17:39:25 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.104.100.36]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020527163923.SJLU28297.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 17:39:23 +0100 Message-ID: <001d01c2059d$19506a20$246468d5@oemcomputer> From: "mike.dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <137.eac8555.2a22c8c8@aol.com> Subject: Re: LF: Decca component Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 17:39:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Thank you to all those who have commented on my Decca Tx unit failure. As the Tx has three units, and two are still working, I was able to compare good with bad. This resulted in finding two faulty transistors, one open circuit and one short circuit. Amazingly, the unit still gives 100W or so output. Obviously the burnt component (which I now know to be a MOV) failed at the same time. Thanks to Derek, G3GRO, and the Crawley Club, I should have replacements soon. In the meantime, the other two units are giving me a few hundred watts. Mike, G3XDV http://www.lf.thersgb.net ==================== From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28303 invoked from network); 27 May 2002 14:11:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2002 14:11:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 16296 invoked by uid 10001); 27 May 2002 14:15:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2002 14:15:36 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CLA7-0006bp-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 May 2002 15:07:51 +0100 Received: from neptune.imagenisp.com ([204.244.138.19]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CLA6-0006bi-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 May 2002 15:07:50 +0100 Received: from jsm (DEFAULT [204.244.18.84]) by neptune.imagenisp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id LW6WKXH5; Mon, 27 May 2002 07:07:47 -0700 Message-ID: <001e01c20587$3320b2e0$5412f4cc@jsm> From: "Steve McDonald" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020527100655.00b87018@pb623250.kuleuven.be> Subject: LF: DF3LP? Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 07:02:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Peter...my e-mail to you has bounced back so I will try this route....could you tell me...what is the max V(ds) that have put to your IRF640/840 (x3) PA? Thanks Steve / VE7SL From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27608 invoked from network); 27 May 2002 09:05:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2002 09:05:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 3257 invoked by uid 10001); 27 May 2002 09:09:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2002 09:09:33 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CGLi-00028u-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 May 2002 09:59:30 +0100 Received: from 210-86-15-131.ipnets.xtra.co.nz ([210.86.15.131] helo=mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CGLg-00028H-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 May 2002 09:59:29 +0100 Received: from xtr743187 ([210.86.37.234]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20020527085851.WLPH13173.mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz@xtr743187> for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 20:58:51 +1200 Message-ID: <002201c2055d$24852c40$10b51bca@xtr743187> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020527101237.00b8eff0@pb623250.kuleuven.be> Subject: LF: Re: corona effect Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 21:00:35 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Rik, I have some comments to make on corona: > I just received a question about the corona effect with 136kHz antennas. > Maybe it's an interesting item to add to my LF antenna webpage, therfore I > would like to know if someone already experienced this effect on 136kHz > (with what antenna and power/antennacurrent). Some years back I had a fire start on feeder insulation that I later attributed to starting by corona discharge. The "mistake" I think I made was to use insulating tape that presumably had a high dielectric constant, and the tape winding had a fairly sharp edge. The fire appeared to start from the edge of the tape. I was running around 500 watts on 182.7 kHz SSB and I happened to hear a "funny noise" outside the shack, so I stopped transmitting and rushed outside to find the feeder ablaze. A nearby hose was used to put out the fire. The XYL was not impressed. Some investigation showed that corona discharge is basically a voltage gradient (local field strength) phemomena. My feeder was in a thousands of volts per metre situation. It pays to avoid sharp edges, even in dielectric material. Where nuts and bolts are used on an antenna wire, protection from breakdown can be achieved by using a wire ring around the nut and bolt, with a wire bonding it to the hardware. Such a "corona ring" reduces rather than initiates corona discharge! The highest field strength region of a top-loaded vertical with a ground-mounted loading coil is at the top of the loading coil and the first part of the up-wire. 73, Bob ZL2CA From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7766 invoked from network); 27 May 2002 08:19:57 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2002 08:19:57 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 28767 invoked by uid 10001); 27 May 2002 08:23:53 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2002 08:23:53 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CFdp-0001QZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 May 2002 09:14:09 +0100 Received: from mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.50]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CFdo-0001Q4-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 May 2002 09:14:08 +0100 Received: from dell-rik.fys.kuleuven.ac.be ([10.33.165.177]) by mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g4R8DaTb108004 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 10:13:36 +0200 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020527101237.00b8eff0@pb623250.kuleuven.be> X-Sender: pb623250@pb623250.kuleuven.be X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 10:15:51 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: LF: corona effect In-reply-to: <000701c204c9$aece79e0$416368d5@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello group, I just received a question about the corona effect with 136kHz antennas. Maybe it's an interesting item to add to my LF antenna webpage, therfore I would like to know if someone already experienced this effect on 136kHz (with what antenna and power/antennacurrent). thanks in advance, 73, Rik ON7YD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6577 invoked from network); 27 May 2002 08:16:49 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2002 08:16:49 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 11966 invoked from network); 27 May 2002 08:16:36 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2002 08:16:36 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CFa0-0001NB-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 May 2002 09:10:12 +0100 Received: from mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.50]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CFZz-0001MA-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 May 2002 09:10:11 +0100 Received: from dell-rik.fys.kuleuven.ac.be ([10.33.165.177]) by mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g4R89dTb127730 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 10:09:39 +0200 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020527100655.00b87018@pb623250.kuleuven.be> X-Sender: pb623250@pb623250.kuleuven.be X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 10:11:54 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: Re: LF: Decca component In-reply-to: <000701c204c9$aece79e0$416368d5@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >The dead Tx unit still works but not very well. A component across one of >the transistors burnt out. I have a diagram but do not recognise the symbol >(perhaps a temperature variable resistor?). It is called R31V and the symbol >looks like a preset potentiometer, but it looks just like a red disc ceramic >capacitor. Hi Mike, it's most likely a varistor. These components have a very high resistance that sinks rapidly once a certain voltage is exceeded. They are often used to avoid overvoltage (spikes etc...) over semiconductors. The important thing you need to know is the breakdown voltage of the varistor. Typical this is about 70 .. 90% of the max. allowed voltage over the semiconductor, but in rugged equipement (as the decca units) it might be less (50% or so) to be on the save site. 73, Rik ON7YD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2979 invoked from network); 27 May 2002 06:22:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2002 06:22:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 29219 invoked from network); 27 May 2002 06:22:37 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2002 06:22:37 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CDnf-00086S-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 May 2002 07:16:11 +0100 Received: from mail.mvnet.de ([194.25.108.14] helo=server06.mvnet.de ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CDne-00086M-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 May 2002 07:16:10 +0100 Received: from gtwf.mvnet.de (lcon-sn02.MVnet.de [194.25.108.83]) by server06.mvnet.de (8.12.2/) with ESMTP id g4R6GGg5030742 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 08:16:16 +0200 Received: from falkenuge02.mvnet.de (gtwf-mgw.mvnet.de [192.168.0.3]) by gtwf.mvnet.de (8.12.3/) with SMTP id g4R6GxwM012532 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 08:16:59 +0200 Received: from no.name.available by falkenuge02.mvnet.de via smtpd (for [192.168.0.10]) with SMTP; 27 May 2002 06:16:01 UT Received: from prox ([10.10.0.3]) by mgwl01.mgw.mvnet.de (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4R6LxM16286 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 08:21:59 +0200 Received: from 10.254.1.1 by prox (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Mon, 27 May 2002 08:27:38 +0200 Received: from [194.1.2.8] by adlerauge-11.mvnet.de via smtpd (for [10.254.1.10]) with SMTP; 27 May 2002 06:14:32 UT Received: by UMNT02 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 27 May 2002 08:16:02 +0200 Message-ID: From: v.wedelstaedt@um.mv-regierung.de To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: AW: alpha signals Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 08:15:58 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hello group,
 
last year I receivd alpha whith my equipment  (NE 602- converter and 6m vertikal) , last week absolutly nothing, change antenna to loop: absolutly nothing. I think it is out.
 
Eberhard
LWL,    JO53PO
new in the group
-----Ursprьngliche Nachricht-----
Von: SOMMEREYNS RUDDY [mailto:ruddy.sommereyns@belgacom.net]
Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Mai 2002 15:27
An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Betreff: LF: alpha signals

Hello All,
 
I have a question: Are the Alpha signals at 11.905 kc and 12.649 still on the air ??? Used to receive them very good but since a couple of weeks I do not hear them anymore.
( Same story at location of ON6ND, Werner, who lives about 3 km from my QTH).
All info welcome. Thanks.
 
Ruddy
ON6UX
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17164 invoked from network); 26 May 2002 23:31:10 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2002 23:31:10 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 22250 invoked by uid 10001); 26 May 2002 23:35:05 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2002 23:35:05 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C7ON-0001oh-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 May 2002 00:25:39 +0100 Received: from imo-r09.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.105]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C7OM-0001o6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 May 2002 00:25:38 +0100 Received: from G0MRF@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.137.eac8555 (4459) for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 19:24:56 -0400 (EDT) From: G0MRF@aol.com Message-ID: <137.eac8555.2a22c8c8@aol.com> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 19:24:56 EDT Subject: Re: LF: Decca component To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows UK sub 10512 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit In a message dated 5/26/02 7:31:37 PM GMT Daylight Time, andre.kesteloot@verizon.net writes:



"mike.dennison" wrote:

> Oh, yes, the highly protected commercial (ex-telecom) PSU oscillated and
> produced over 100V.

I suppose that you could connect at the PSU output a zener diode to ground,
after a fuse, to protect your Decca Tx in the future



Maybe a Zener, Thyristor (etc) and fuse to form a crowbar cct.

David From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12211 invoked from network); 26 May 2002 19:51:49 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2002 19:51:49 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 27846 invoked from network); 26 May 2002 19:51:30 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2002 19:51:30 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C3zN-0006aJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 May 2002 20:47:37 +0100 Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.91]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C3zM-0006aE-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 May 2002 20:47:36 +0100 Received: from telemetry.demon.co.uk ([194.222.19.114]) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17C3zK-000B7R-0X for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 May 2002 20:47:35 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 20:46:26 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Tom Boucher" Subject: Re: LF: Decca component In-reply-to: <000701c204c9$aece79e0$416368d5@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Trial Version 3.05 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Mike These are 'varistors' or voltage dependant resistors which are used as transient suppressors. In my 'chinese copy' of the Decca bridge PA, I used a 200 volt, 8 Kilo-amp, 85 Joule device available from Farnell P/No: 502-224. It is also a red disc and is about 25 mm diameter. 73, Tom G3OLB Mike, G3XDV wrote: > A component across one of >the transistors burnt out. I have a diagram but do not recognise the symbol >(perhaps a temperature variable resistor?). It is called R31V and the symbol >looks like a preset potentiometer, but it looks just like a red disc ceramic >capacitor. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10765 invoked from network); 26 May 2002 19:35:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2002 19:35:02 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 2230 invoked by uid 10001); 26 May 2002 19:38:56 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2002 19:38:56 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C3af-00067c-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 May 2002 20:22:05 +0100 Received: from imo-r07.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.103]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C3ae-000671-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 May 2002 20:22:04 +0100 Received: from WarmSpgs@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.78.272cf65d (3310) for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 15:21:25 -0400 (EDT) From: WarmSpgs@aol.com Message-ID: <78.272cf65d.2a228fb5@aol.com> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 15:21:25 EDT Subject: Re: LF: Re: Decca component To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I tend to agree with Rye and David. I'm not at all familiar with the Decca gear, but a varistor directly across a transistor is a protection technique I've seen used elsewhere in RF amplifiers. Its inherent capacitance is figured in with whatever other capacitance is needed at that point by the matching network, so I would take some pains to replace it with one of the same type. 73, John Davis From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26641 invoked from network); 26 May 2002 19:09:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2002 19:09:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 5808 invoked from network); 26 May 2002 19:09:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2002 19:09:07 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C3CZ-0005c4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 May 2002 19:57:11 +0100 Received: from cobalt1-ps.global.net.uk ([195.147.248.161] helo=cobalt1-ps.global.net.uk.noc.gxn.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C3CY-0005bw-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 May 2002 19:57:10 +0100 Received: from p1as11a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.235.27] helo=drawing) by cobalt1-ps.global.net.uk.noc.gxn.net with smtp (Exim 3.03 #1) id 17C3BY-0003Xw-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 May 2002 19:56:08 +0100 Message-ID: <000701c204e7$11f01b60$1beb93c3@drawing> From: "David Sparvell" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000701c204c9$aece79e0$416368d5@oemcomputer> Subject: LF: Re: Decca component Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 19:55:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: mike dennison wrote > A component across one of > the transistors burnt out. I have a diagram but do not recognise the symbol > (perhaps a temperature variable resistor?). It is called R31V and the symbol > looks like a preset potentiometer, but it looks just like a red disc ceramic > capacitor. The description sounds very much like a MOV. Regards David G4FTC From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17011 invoked from network); 26 May 2002 19:04:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2002 19:04:11 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 17154 invoked by uid 10001); 26 May 2002 19:01:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2002 19:01:20 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C36r-0005Vn-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 May 2002 19:51:17 +0100 Received: from mail.sitestar.net.234.160.205.in-addr.arpa ([205.160.234.8] helo=mail2.sitestar.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C36p-0005Vi-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 May 2002 19:51:16 +0100 Received: from sitestar.net [65.129.20.43] by mail2.sitestar.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id AFE420920078; Sun, 26 May 2002 14:56:36 -0400 Message-ID: <3CF12ECC.DC04855@sitestar.net> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 14:51:57 -0400 From: "Rye Gewalt" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Decca component References: <000701c204c9$aece79e0$416368d5@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Declude-Sender: ryeg@sitestar.net [65.129.20.43] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: It could be a GE transorb which was a kind of a voltage limiter that was made by GE about 25 years ago -- it either is a MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor) or acts like one. I do know that they were red and looked like disc capacitors -- otherwise I really don't remember much about them. See: http://209.134.106.21/articles/spike.pdf Rye "mike.dennison" wrote: > I have at last fixed the PSU problem that killed one unit of my Decca Tx > units a few months ago. I am at present running about 600W RF (75mW ERP) > from two units, after using 100W RF for some time. > > The dead Tx unit still works but not very well. A component across one of > the transistors burnt out. I have a diagram but do not recognise the symbol > (perhaps a temperature variable resistor?). It is called R31V and the symbol > looks like a preset potentiometer, but it looks just like a red disc ceramic > capacitor. > > If anyone has a faulty Tx unit and can spare one of these components, can > they send me one (I can supply my address by private e-mail)? Also, can > someone explain what this red disc is, and what it does. Only two of the > four transistors have it. > > With your help, I hope to run close to a kilowatt again and increase the ERP > to 120mW! > > Thanks. > > Mike, G3XDV > http://www.lf.thersgb.net > ==================== From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 904 invoked from network); 26 May 2002 18:31:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2002 18:31:54 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 8314 invoked by uid 10001); 26 May 2002 18:35:48 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2002 18:35:48 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C2hz-000527-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 May 2002 19:25:35 +0100 Received: from out012pub.verizon.net ([206.46.170.137] helo=out012.verizon.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C2hx-00051O-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 May 2002 19:25:33 +0100 Received: from verizon.net ([141.156.32.112]) by out012.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020526182500.PSSO4569.out012.verizon.net@verizon.net>; Sun, 26 May 2002 13:25:00 -0500 Message-ID: <3CF12934.B9D6C9A1@verizon.net> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 14:28:04 -0400 From: "Andre Kesteloot" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Decca component References: <000701c204c9$aece79e0$416368d5@oemcomputer> <3CF10A3A.2771C825@verizon.net> <000e01c204d3$a14724c0$416368d5@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: "mike.dennison" wrote: > Oh, yes, the highly protected commercial (ex-telecom) PSU oscillated and > produced over 100V. I suppose that you could connect at the PSU output a zener diode to ground, after a fuse, to protect your Decca Tx in the future > It is a tribute to the design of the Decca units that > the damage was relatively trivial. I just recived my very own Decca unit, brought in, by air, by David G0MRF, and I am looking for all the tips I can get :-) 73 Andrй From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2776 invoked from network); 26 May 2002 16:43:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2002 16:43:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 29244 invoked from network); 26 May 2002 16:42:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2002 16:42:53 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C11d-000376-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 May 2002 17:37:45 +0100 Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.43]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C11c-00036z-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 May 2002 17:37:44 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.104.99.65]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020526163723.ELZH295.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 17:37:24 +0100 Message-ID: <000e01c204d3$a14724c0$416368d5@oemcomputer> From: "mike.dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000701c204c9$aece79e0$416368d5@oemcomputer> <3CF10A3A.2771C825@verizon.net> Subject: Re: LF: Decca component Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 17:37:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > It would be helpful if you could let us know _how_ your PSU problem destroyed > that Decca unit. Did your PSU provide a voltage higher than 67 volts DC? > 73 > Andrй Oh, yes, the highly protected commercial (ex-telecom) PSU oscillated and produced over 100V. It is a tribute to the design of the Decca units that the damage was relatively trivial. The smoke was spectacular, though, and smelled horrible. Mike, G3XDV http://www.lf.thersgb.net ==================== From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11047 invoked from network); 26 May 2002 16:17:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2002 16:17:49 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 17877 invoked from network); 26 May 2002 16:17:34 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2002 16:17:34 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C0eA-0002fr-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 May 2002 17:13:30 +0100 Received: from out008pub.verizon.net ([206.46.170.108] helo=out008.verizon.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C0e9-0002fO-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 May 2002 17:13:29 +0100 Received: from verizon.net ([141.156.32.112]) by out008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020526161251.SJTL29794.out008.verizon.net@verizon.net>; Sun, 26 May 2002 11:12:51 -0500 Message-ID: <3CF10A3A.2771C825@verizon.net> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 12:15:54 -0400 From: "Andre Kesteloot" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Decca component References: <000701c204c9$aece79e0$416368d5@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: "mike.dennison" wrote: > I have at last fixed the PSU problem that killed one unit of my Decca Tx > units a few months ago. Hello Mike, It would be helpful if you could let us know _how_ your PSU problem destroyed that Decca unit. Did your PSU provide a voltage higher than 67 volts DC? 73 Andrй From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17435 invoked from network); 26 May 2002 15:36:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2002 15:36:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 29764 invoked from network); 26 May 2002 15:35:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2002 15:35:53 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17BzuK-0001nt-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 May 2002 16:26:08 +0100 Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.46]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17BzuJ-0001no-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 May 2002 16:26:07 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.104.99.65]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020526152605.IJAY4119.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 16:26:05 +0100 Message-ID: <000701c204c9$aece79e0$416368d5@oemcomputer> From: "mike.dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Decca component Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 16:26:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I have at last fixed the PSU problem that killed one unit of my Decca Tx units a few months ago. I am at present running about 600W RF (75mW ERP) from two units, after using 100W RF for some time. The dead Tx unit still works but not very well. A component across one of the transistors burnt out. I have a diagram but do not recognise the symbol (perhaps a temperature variable resistor?). It is called R31V and the symbol looks like a preset potentiometer, but it looks just like a red disc ceramic capacitor. If anyone has a faulty Tx unit and can spare one of these components, can they send me one (I can supply my address by private e-mail)? Also, can someone explain what this red disc is, and what it does. Only two of the four transistors have it. With your help, I hope to run close to a kilowatt again and increase the ERP to 120mW! Thanks. Mike, G3XDV http://www.lf.thersgb.net ==================== From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16547 invoked from network); 25 May 2002 21:51:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 25 May 2002 21:51:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 22579 invoked from network); 25 May 2002 21:51:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 25 May 2002 21:51:39 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17BjJy-0003BG-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 25 May 2002 22:43:30 +0100 Received: from mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz ([210.86.15.132]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17BjJw-0003AX-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 25 May 2002 22:43:29 +0100 Received: from xtr743187 ([202.27.181.133]) by mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20020525214252.PETB20814.mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz@xtr743187> for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 09:42:52 +1200 Message-ID: <001101c20435$88f48820$85b51bca@xtr743187> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <008401c1d7df$3b4ee6b0$0100a8c0@athlon> <001401c1d82c$08c25a40$b3b21bca@xtr743187> Subject: LF: ZL6QH tests 22 June Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 09:42:23 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, ZL6QH is intending to transmit LF beacon signals on Saturday 22 June. It is likely that the beacon will use the same narrow FSK and 120 second dot length beacon format as for previous tests, on a selected frequency near 137 kHz. Details will be posted nearer the time. 73, Bob ZL2CA From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13978 invoked from network); 25 May 2002 16:28:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 25 May 2002 16:28:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 13312 invoked from network); 25 May 2002 16:27:43 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 25 May 2002 16:27:43 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17BeLT-0006H6-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 25 May 2002 17:24:43 +0100 Received: from nort.infotecstt.ru ([80.68.3.204] helo=relay.dx.ru) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17BeLS-0006H0-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 25 May 2002 17:24:42 +0100 Received: from ed.dx (ed.dx [10.0.1.11]) by relay.dx.ru (8.9.3-PM01/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA26933 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 20:24:40 +0400 (MSD) Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 20:30:10 +0400 From: "Ed Lesnichy" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.35) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Organization: Ed Lesnichy X-Priority: 3 Message-ID: <1854.020525@dx.ru> To: "SOMMEREYNS RUDDY" Subject: Re: LF: alpha signals In-reply-to: <000801c203ef$e429b1c0$d4db043e@be047304> References: <000801c203ef$e429b1c0$d4db043e@be047304> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello LF Group and Ruddy! Saturday, May 25, 2002, 5:27:10 PM, you wrote: SR> I have a question: Are the Alpha signals at 11.905 kc and 12.649 still SR> on the air ??? Used to receive them very good but since a couple of SR> weeks I do not hear them anymore. SR>(Same story at location of ON6ND, Werner, who lives about 3 km from my QTH). SR> All info welcome. Thanks. On my SWLs all Alfa's systems have OFF in the work on technical service (???) in the same days of each month and in same hours of each day. I observed usually such OFF at the end of one month. Some with 23 to 26 number, and some with 27 to 30. But in May such diagram for some reason is not carried out(??) Can Alfa absolutely have switched OFF? ( ;-)))) Similar that such OFF begin and come to an end about 18z or 4z. Probably in summertime 17z and 3z. Alfa most strongly to me prevents on RX. I yet have not found protection against Alfa to my RX system (the best result on RX with 1km Beverage ->??). Therefore while I shall be active on LF in the found out days. Up to a meeting an autumn at the end of each month or in long (as in May) Alfa's OFF 73! Ed RU6LA mailto:ed@dx.ru From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29361 invoked from network); 25 May 2002 16:03:30 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 25 May 2002 16:03:30 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 26861 invoked by uid 10001); 25 May 2002 16:07:23 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 25 May 2002 16:07:23 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17BdyC-0005sD-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 25 May 2002 17:00:40 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17BdyA-0005rb-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 25 May 2002 17:00:38 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu01.dialup2.infomsk.ru [212.164.44.113]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA3cefb4fe4fb7 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 22:59:58 +0700 (OSS) Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 23:40:38 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: Ground loss for different length In-reply-to: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Group. I sould someone to add. On Sat, 25 May 2002, Alexander S. Yurkov wrote: > only for elevated conterpoise. The formula is: > > > R=(1/(pi*s) * [(1/la)*ln( (H+h)/(2*H) ) + (1/lc)*ln( (H+h)/(2*h) )] > > where > la - antenna length, > lc - conterpoise length. > Other notations are the same then previously. > > If lc=la then the formula obviously became the same then previous one. If lc >> la the formula is not right. Charge distributing seems to be not homogenious. Sorry, I have not notice some problems at first. But if lc ~< la may be OK. It's should be tested and may be the formula should be modified. PSE do not use it now. Sorry again. 73 de RA9MB/Alex http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: (qmail 22219 invoked from network); 25 May 2002 14:17:53 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 25 May 2002 14:17:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 7871 invoked from network); 25 May 2002 14:17:32 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 25 May 2002 14:17:32 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17BcKW-0004Zm-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 25 May 2002 15:15:36 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17BcKU-0004ZH-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 25 May 2002 15:15:34 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu01.dialup2.infomsk.ru [212.164.44.113]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA3cef9b6047ca for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 21:10:40 +0700 (OSS) Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 21:51:19 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Ground loss for different length Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Group. Previosly I have sent the formula for estimation of LF antenna ground loss if conterpoise length is equal to antenna length. If conterpoise length is not equal to antenna length situation became more complex as follows. If lengthes are equal then in the case H<> (1/lc)*ln( (H+h)/(2*h) ) Also NEC-2 modeling show not big variation (not more 20 percent) of R if conterpoise wire is not parallel to antenna wire. So the formula seems can be used for any conterpoise direction. 73 de RA9MB/Alex http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29578 invoked from network); 25 May 2002 13:35:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 25 May 2002 13:35:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 23447 invoked from network); 25 May 2002 13:35:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 25 May 2002 13:35:28 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Bba8-0003nc-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 25 May 2002 14:27:40 +0100 Received: from riker.skynet.be ([195.238.3.89]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Bba7-0003nX-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 25 May 2002 14:27:39 +0100 Received: from be047304 ([62.4.219.212]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with SMTP id g4PDRPk02058 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 15:27:26 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Message-ID: <000801c203ef$e429b1c0$d4db043e@be047304> From: "SOMMEREYNS RUDDY" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: alpha signals Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 15:27:10 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hello All,
 
I have a question: Are the Alpha signals at 11.905 kc and 12.649 still on the air ??? Used to receive them very good but since a couple of weeks I do not hear them anymore.
( Same story at location of ON6ND, Werner, who lives about 3 km from my QTH).
All info welcome. Thanks.
 
Ruddy
ON6UX
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8558 invoked from network); 24 May 2002 16:41:34 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 24 May 2002 16:41:34 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 27130 invoked by uid 10001); 24 May 2002 16:45:25 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 24 May 2002 16:45:25 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17BHxt-0006Ml-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 24 May 2002 17:30:53 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17BHxr-0006MZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 24 May 2002 17:30:51 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu01.dialup2.infomsk.ru [212.164.44.113]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA3cee69593fb0 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 23:24:57 +0700 (OSS) Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 00:05:32 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Burred conterpoise In-reply-to: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------080803060402030606090809" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080803060402030606090809 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Group. On Wed, 22 May 2002, Alexander S. Yurkov wrote: > It seems to me extremely worth then formulas show the conderpoise wich > lie on soil surface is the extremely bad case. To reduce losses > conterpoise should be elevated or burred to adequate depth. To elevate is > better... And not better, but much better. 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0o7ocir1EjXziTqxe8ukwpajY8uQ46lm4y9zPTUc2m/votTBRdDMnNIQ3cxkfc26NNX/pNJT PZBjzT2/PD/Q3H8RCkxAYIjF23TzLHKJxDztG85PMr53OTV4gjNlZM2klS2JvdPlVjCtzdVg 3Ni80dmKfBpgXTjfY8+i7RuFrQepunz9DDd+LM3qYNZW2s+b7a5GPA1h/dyXsNwYJdzDECyR minD5NKOEDetEn/1nNTvUNeweT+PMX3deWA3iYkxqZ3ewXDY6400zNMJiiM1xjLfP63b1JDd dkTf6gLdhUAv5SJM3RI+7w0M1LPezNbdjXDPyvfaGiPd5YA8sKMwoyMK6RThl33b6dA6m4hI JNvgi2A6gAM0x80pgpg+K87iLe7iLw7jMS7jM07jNW7jN47jOa7jO87jPe7jPw7kQS7kQ94C BQAAOw== --------------080803060402030606090809-- From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29088 invoked from network); 23 May 2002 17:37:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2002 17:37:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 17650 invoked by uid 10001); 23 May 2002 17:41:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2002 17:41:49 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AwSm-0003dx-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 23 May 2002 18:33:20 +0100 Received: from mta3-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.43]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AwSl-0003ds-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 23 May 2002 18:33:19 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.229.160]) by mta3-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020523173316.REAY24398.mta3-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Thu, 23 May 2002 18:33:16 +0100 Message-ID: <001401c20280$10da3300$a0e5fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: LF: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Re: [Lowfer] RE: litz wire Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 18:33:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashlock,William" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 4:11 AM Subject: LF: RE: Re: RE: Re: Re: [Lowfer] RE: litz wire > Mal, > > As the result of becoming gray from learning how to do things the hard way, > I now conclude that it is far better to FIRST lay out the theory of what I > am intending to design. This would include a sufficient number of equations > describing the behavior of all the variables. Then I do the best job I can > to verify the math using bench tests of all components. As a final step I > determine if the performance of the design is as predicted from the math. If > not, I go back to the design equations and determine what went wrong and > then begin the process over again. Note, that for LF antenna designs where > nothing is a certainty, my approach is NOT to simply set up a the new > antenna and call up my friend 40 miles away and ask for an S reading. > > In terms of the use of #12 Litz wire (the subject of miles of postings over > the last two weeks), I have just designed a 4X #12 cable for my 50'/50' loop > using the above approach that has an AC resistance including ground loss of > 0.39 ohms. As far as I know this is the lowest resistance ever achieved for > a TX loop antenna of this size at 185k. And yes, anyone doubting this > measurement, may stop in and check it out. Hello Bill These are excellent figures, the best I have ever seen. Everyone in EU is screaming to the ARRL and the FCC to permit you folks to use 1W erp. I have calculated the amperage to you loop to achieve this 1W erp and the figures frighten me. You said your loop was suspended amongst trees and I would say with this high amperage I will be able to see your smoke signals before I hear you signal. Let us have your calculated antenna amperage to see if my figures compare? Mal/G3KEV > > Thank you for the help in the soldering problem my friend but I do not wish > to continue a dialog of 70% unmeasured, and unverified BS. > > Regards > Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: hamilton mal [mailto:g3kev.ham@virgin.net] > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 1:14 PM > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Subject: LF: Re: RE: Re: Re: [Lowfer] RE: litz wire > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashlock,William" > To: > Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 8:39 PM > Subject: LF: RE: Re: Re: [Lowfer] RE: litz wire > > > > Mal, > > > > >I have wound a loading coil using decca 729 strands litz and another > 2.5mm > > >teflon insulated wire one and compared results. On air measurements and > > >reports are identical, regardless of what theory dictates. > > > > Am I going to have to send you a loading coil made from #12 copper and and > > Bill. Try HW #12 pure copper tube, not the alloy mix you get these days for > commercial wiring and plumbing, even better SPT (silver plated tube tube) > Gold plate tube even better, very low RAC. These are all easy to solder and > although hard to get out perform all other varieties, available in all sizes > from diameters barely visible to sizes that need a fork lift to move about. > 73 de G3KEV > > > > > another with identical dimentions from #12 Litz to prove to you there is a > > 2x reduction in Rac? Assume you have a way to make these measurements? > Using > > on-air measurements as a way to measure a change less than 3db is not a > > sound approach, especially if the A/B change can't be accomplished by > simply > > flipping a switch. This change in fact could be under 2db due to the > > additional series resistance in the circuit added by soil loss. > > > > Regards, > > Bill A > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > > This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered > > through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information > visit > > http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered > through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit > http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ > > _____________________________________________________________________ > This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered > through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit > http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11476 invoked from network); 23 May 2002 13:29:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2002 13:29:37 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 11594 invoked from network); 23 May 2002 13:29:20 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2002 13:29:20 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AsYg-0003AT-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 23 May 2002 14:23:10 +0100 Received: from imo-r07.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.103]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AsYf-0003AO-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 23 May 2002 14:23:09 +0100 Received: from Carmelink@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.da.185b12e9 (15703) for ; Thu, 23 May 2002 09:22:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aol.com (mow-m14.webmail.aol.com [64.12.180.130]) by air-id05.mx.aol.com (v86.12) with ESMTP id MAILINID54-0523092227; Thu, 23 May 2002 09:22:27 -0400 Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 09:21:47 -0400 From: carmelink@aol.com To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: US FCC NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULE MAKING, Comments Message-ID: <160DB275.0943F6F2.02E350C6@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hello all, Jeri is correct on the URL for filing or reading comments: http://www.fcc.gov/e-file/ecfs.html A good "Proceedings" number for new comments would be 02-98, the Docket number. 73, Mike W2AG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18487 invoked from network); 23 May 2002 10:55:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2002 10:55:59 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 4213 invoked by uid 10001); 23 May 2002 10:59:46 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2002 10:59:46 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AqCN-0002lA-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 23 May 2002 11:51:59 +0100 Received: from cmailenv3.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.55]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AqCM-0002l5-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 23 May 2002 11:51:58 +0100 Received: from [62.21.129.235] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV3.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17AqCJ-0006ZF-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 23 May 2002 10:51:55 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020523112845.00a3e130@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 12:52:12 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: Selective level meter as receiver MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE

I endorse what has been said before via the reflector: Selective level meters are excellent for the job they were made for. But as LF receivers they have limitations.

1. Most or all of them have no preselection before the mixer, making them vulnerable to strong out of band signals.  External  input selectivity must be added;  for instance a band pass filter with at least two or three high-Q tuned circuits.
The selectivity of the aerial system, as used for transmission, may turn out to be sufficient,  but only when there are no strong broadcast or other transmitters in the vicinity.
My nearest strong transmitters are at MF at a distance of 40km or so and I find the selectivity of my aerial system sufficient for use with a  Wandel & Goltermann SPM-12 as receiver in the "low distortion" position. In the "low noise" position  the instrument  is hopelessly overloaded before a suitable sensitivity can be selected.

(My SPM-12 is of the type that has the possibility of locking the frequency to a crystal.  Whether the stability is good enough for QRSS I don't know because I only use normal  CW. I also possess the companion PS-12 signal generator that can be used on its own or  driven from the SPM-12. Between them  they make a fine team for measurements)

2. The near selectivity is also limited. Though the pass bands are no doubt  as specified  the filter slopes are  not very steep.
I used the SPM-12 to receive SAQ at 17.2 kHz but  could not get rid of  interference from GBR at 16kHz. I had to insert an outboard audiofilter between the SPM-12 and the headphones to obtain a clear signal.

3. The 25Hz IF filter rings objectionably because it was not designed for pulse shaped signals.

I therefore very much prefer my Teletron LWF45 hybrid LF receiver from the sixties with two valves in the RF part.  It has five tuned circuits before the mixer that track the oscillator and excellent IF filters at 30kHz with 11 tuned circuits and a 6/60dB shape factor of better than two.  As the narrowest filter is  400Hz wide I still use the outboard audiofilter as well. But the large signal behaviour of the RX leaves nothing to be desired. 

The passive outboard audio filter provides choice between 200Hz and 30Hz bandwidth, centred at 1000Hz . The 30Hz filter does not ring because it is a linear phase design.  

73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10417 invoked from network); 23 May 2002 09:16:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2002 09:16:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 3403 invoked from network); 23 May 2002 09:15:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2002 09:15:47 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Aoe9-0002Zq-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 23 May 2002 10:12:33 +0100 Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.93]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Aoe8-0002Zl-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 23 May 2002 10:12:32 +0100 Received: from host62-7-108-19.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.7.108.19] helo=main) by rhenium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17Aoe5-0001EA-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 23 May 2002 10:12:30 +0100 Message-ID: <000001c20239$e8a4c8a0$136c073e@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: HCF 2001 LF Propagation talk Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 00:56:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All, I have at long last finished writing up all the things (and a few more) that I talked about at Old Windsor last year. It can be accessed as a page on my web site under the Propagation heading. I have not bundled up a downloadable version as it is not that long, and its in HTML, and the images are all in GIF format. I hope most of the typos are out of it, but I been looking at it for so long now that I can no longer spot the errors in it. Remember it you want to save it, you will have to click on the images individually to save them, as HTML only saves the links. I hope it was worth waiting so long for it ! Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27525 invoked from network); 23 May 2002 07:22:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2002 07:22:46 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 15515 invoked from network); 23 May 2002 07:22:30 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2002 07:22:30 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Amrb-0002L6-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 23 May 2002 08:18:19 +0100 Received: from siaag2ab.compuserve.com ([149.174.40.132]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Amra-0002L1-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 23 May 2002 08:18:18 +0100 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by siaag2ab.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.12) id DAA16408 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 23 May 2002 03:17:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 03:17:35 -0400 From: "Holger 'Geri' Kinzel, DK8KW" Subject: Re: LF: US FCC NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULE MAKING, Comments To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: <200205230317_MC3-FF3B-C800@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello LF-Group, I have filed my comments to the proposal electronically. You can review it (and other comments) by opening the following URL: http://www.fcc.gov/e-file/ecfs.html then click on the field "Search for Filed Comments" (on the left hand side), then you enter RM-9404 under "Proceedings" into the mask that appears and press the "Retrieve Document List" button. Best 73 Geri, DK8KW (W1KW) From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8469 invoked from network); 23 May 2002 02:59:10 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2002 02:59:10 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 15579 invoked from network); 23 May 2002 02:58:52 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2002 02:58:52 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AihO-0001q3-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 23 May 2002 03:51:30 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AihN-0001py-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 23 May 2002 03:51:29 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 7522 invoked from network); 23 May 2002 02:44:47 -0000 Received: from merimac.us.gases.boc.com (HELO merimac) (204.149.80.4) by server-5.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 23 May 2002 02:44:47 -0000 Received: by EXC_WIL04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 22 May 2002 22:52:51 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: RE: Re: RE: Re: Re: [Lowfer] RE: litz wire Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 22:34:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Bob, Thanks for the suport This guy is something else! >It was starting to make my head ache too HAR >Any up dates on the time to publish the final chapter on the Loop ?? Yes I finally found some time to get this together over last weekend. Just about done. The hold- up was running enough tests to calculate a good number for the ground loss. >looks like the FCC is going to make it hard fer folks to radiate 1 Watt and the loop is going to be my answer when the time comes to 137 Khz I keep coming up with and am hearing more and more reasons for the loop to become more popular as the result of the coming 137 band. I guess some of the reasons why the European's have not jumped on the loop in a big way is that they: 1)Don't have the width of real estate, 2) Have enough input power to reach a 1w ERP without going to a loop, 3) Or (most likely) don't understand LF loop antennas. Since the height of the antenna is pretty much limited for most guys to 70ft or so due to local codes, and there is only so much additional improvement in using a big top hat, the only way to up the ERP to 1w is to use a loop. I'll calculate how big a loop has to be to radiate 1w with 100w in (IE: 10% efficient). Not small, but possible. Bill _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4196 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 20:34:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 20:34:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 4226 invoked by uid 10001); 22 May 2002 20:38:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 20:38:25 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Aclq-00013X-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 21:31:42 +0100 Received: from www.gardaol.com ([195.223.232.51] helo=netregister.it ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Aclo-00013S-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 21:31:40 +0100 Received: from ik2dedlibero (brescia17.phoenix.it [213.82.97.81]) by netregister.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g4MKVZa13928 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 22:31:35 +0200 Message-ID: <002901c1e03a$01a06b60$516152d5@it> From: "Giulio Scaroni" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000c01c201b5$c3b19a20$39e9fc3e@l8p8y6> Subject: LF: Re: bandwidth Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 04:47:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hi Mal,
i not agree with your comment, here i have made many test with narrow band in QRSS, but using or not using an external DSP is exatly the same, i have aTimewave 599zx, but for qrs no difference.
Also, with narrow bandwidht in IF stage from 2.3 Khz to 250 is the same when you using the PC and sound card, the only thing is that if we have an interference in IF bandwidht is better yes the narrow IF filters.(here in Italy with only 4 active LF station we do not have this problem, hi hi hi)
Another thing to remember is that with crash like the tundestorm, the narrow filter make the impulse much more longer than with wide filter, with DSP filter this situation is not present...., so with crash better is wide filter and then dsp filter made by FFT PC program.
Another situation in aural CW, the narrower bandwidht the better is the reception, also in IF and AF with DSP.
Last qso that i have had with M0BMU, was in aural cw but signal was audible only with 20 Hz DSP filtering and narrow filter in IF stage!!!
73 to all de IK2DED Giulio
 
 
Some recent comments seem to indicate that all selectivity should be left to the FFT when using computer derived programs like ARGO and associated type programmes for narrow frequency modes like QRS.
My approach is to feed the RX audio to the computer sound card at the narrowest bandwidth possible, in the case of the pegelmessers at 20 hz b/w. When using conventional receivers with b/widths around 200 hz I then use an external audio DSP unit and again reduce the bandwidth to the narrowest possible. Weak signals stand out a lot better when using this method. On normal cw signals using the most narrow bandwidth possible, commensurate with speed, makes a big difference to hearing the signal. Signals that are barely audible with a 300 - 1000 hz filter are perfectly readable with a 20 - 50 hz filter, the signal over noise is improved dramatically.
The same applies to all modes of signal, minimum bandwidth to achieve the object.
This is normal commercial practice but some radio amateurs are still working in the dark.
G3KEV
 
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: (qmail 1964 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 19:45:48 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 19:45:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 9842 invoked by uid 10001); 22 May 2002 19:49:43 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 19:49:43 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Abur-0000ty-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 20:36:57 +0100 Received: from public.thorcom.com ([193.82.116.10] helo=public1.thorcom.com ident=[2Zd/X2DDQsLbnTt8mZTP1PyKROx8E2Zg]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Abuq-0000tt-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 20:36:56 +0100 Received: from cs2416229-173.houston.rr.com ([24.162.29.173] helo=wia1) by public1.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Abup-0004Dn-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 20:36:55 +0100 From: "Ham Radio Market" To: RSGB_LF_GROUP@BLACKSHEEP.ORG Subject: LF: HAM RADIO STUFF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 14:36:57 Message-ID: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: New Page 1

QRO TECHNOLOGY'S HF-2500DX AMPLIFIER REVIEWED - CLICK THROUGH

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From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2985 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 19:27:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 19:27:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 8814 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 19:27:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 19:27:33 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Abjv-0000r5-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 20:25:39 +0100 Received: from postfix2-2.free.fr ([213.228.0.140]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Abju-0000r0-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 20:25:38 +0100 Received: from veronique (toulouse-2-a7-62-147-38-4.dial.proxad.net [62.147.38.4]) by postfix2-2.free.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 0A99C5FC8D for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 21:25:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <00b201c201c6$f32a8e40$0696ffbe@veronique> From: "f5maf" To: "VLF Group" Subject: LF: Wandel et Golterman spm14 Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 21:29:10 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, Any one have informations about WG selective voltmeter SPM14? Thank you Marc F5MAF --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 19/04/02 From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: (qmail 1660 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 19:26:42 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 19:26:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 5601 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 19:26:33 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 19:26:33 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AbhM-0000qy-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 20:23:00 +0100 Received: from public.thorcom.com ([193.82.116.10] helo=public1.thorcom.com ident=[43Mu+RpXRffN7i3VCLydR7rKuS4EfJ5L]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AbhL-0000qt-00 for RSGB_LF_GROUP@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 20:22:59 +0100 Received: from dsl2-houtx-116.nol.net ([207.91.183.116] helo=wia1) by public1.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17AbhK-0004DR-00 for RSGB_LF_GROUP@BLACKSHEEP.ORG; Wed, 22 May 2002 20:22:59 +0100 From: "Ham Radio Market" To: RSGB_LF_GROUP@BLACKSHEEP.ORG Subject: LF: HAM RADIO STUFF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 14:23:00 Message-ID: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: New Page 1

QRO TECHNOLOGY'S HF-2500DX AMPLIFIER REVIEWED - CLICK THROUGH

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From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20711 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 17:27:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 17:27:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 17184 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 17:27:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 17:27:28 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AZrK-0000c1-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 18:25:10 +0100 Received: from mta5-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.45]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AZrJ-0000bw-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 18:25:09 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.233.57]) by mta5-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020522172507.KJRK22320.mta5-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 18:25:07 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c201b5$c3b19a20$39e9fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: bandwidth Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 18:25:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Some recent comments seem to indicate that all selectivity should be left to the FFT when using computer derived programs like ARGO and associated type programmes for narrow frequency modes like QRS.
My approach is to feed the RX audio to the computer sound card at the narrowest bandwidth possible, in the case of the pegelmessers at 20 hz b/w. When using conventional receivers with b/widths around 200 hz I then use an external audio DSP unit and again reduce the bandwidth to the narrowest possible. Weak signals stand out a lot better when using this method. On normal cw signals using the most narrow bandwidth possible, commensurate with speed, makes a big difference to hearing the signal. Signals that are barely audible with a 300 - 1000 hz filter are perfectly readable with a 20 - 50 hz filter, the signal over noise is improved dramatically.
The same applies to all modes of signal, minimum bandwidth to achieve the object.
This is normal commercial practice but some radio amateurs are still working in the dark.
G3KEV
 
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2229 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 17:09:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 17:09:50 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 23599 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 17:09:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 17:09:35 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AZZL-0000YY-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 18:06:35 +0100 Received: from mail-3.tiscalinet.it ([195.130.225.149] helo=mail.tiscalinet.it) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AZZK-0000YT-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 18:06:34 +0100 Received: from orion.pii.net (62.10.11.92) by mail.tiscalinet.it (5.5.057) id 3CAC05EA0177C92D for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 19:06:02 +0200 Received: (from clapo@localhost) by orion.pii.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA00832 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 19:06:22 +0200 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Linux X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-reply-to: <002a01c20182$2a045b20$ffe4fc3e@l8p8y6> Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 19:06:21 +0200 (CEST) From: "Claudio" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Re: Re: pegelmesser Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hallo lowfers. On 22-May-02 hamilton mal wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Vernall > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 10:40 PM > Subject: LF: Re: pegelmesser > > > Mal, > > The frequency stability of any selective level meter with a VFO for a local > oscillator makes them suspect for staying tuned within a fraction of a Hz for > long periods. The digital display on a Siemens D2019 I have merely counts > the VFO (with a constant 100 kHz offset to give passband centre frequency) > and numbers actually change with VFO warmup. The display is to 10 Hz, so it > can not be used for pre-setting to a QRSS signal that is expected to be below > the noise and therefore impractical to try tuning by "ear". As well, the BFO > is a free-running RC oscillator so the recovered audio can have further drift > of centre frequency. I agree but some WG selective level meter are provided by an external local oscillator input, to be used when the instrument is coupled with companion generator. If you know the IF frequency you can order an appropriate Xtal and build an XFO for 136 kHz. > > There are some selective level meters with master oscillator arrangements > for tuning and demodulation, and can have fractional Hz stability. > > In saying the obvious, selective level meters are primarily intended for > determining signal levels. > > Hello Bob > > Look for a pegelmesser with phased locked loop oscillators, synthisized etc > the same as mine and you will find they make a great LF receiver, especially > the models with the 20 hz filters. > Even the free running osc type are useful if kept switched on all the time > and inside the house with a fairly constant temperature and not outside in > the bicycle shed!! > I do not have any trouble resolving and keeping signals within the 20 hz > bandwidth for hours at a time. I especially like the W&G SPM-12, with the 10 > khz IF output. I built an external product det, audio stage and it works > extremely well, very sensitive and the filters are well suited to LF work. Another W&G very useful is SPM-15, synthetized, 3100 and 25 Hz filter, with generator in the same case but useless without a low-pass or tuned filter bitween the antenna and SPM. > 73 de Mal/G3KEV > > > > Bob ZL2CA 73 de Claudio ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Claudio Pozzi http://www.qsl.net/ik2pii happy Linux user E-Mail: Claudio Date: 22-May-02 Time: 18:59:11 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24626 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 16:07:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 16:07:15 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 2432 invoked by uid 10001); 22 May 2002 16:11:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 16:11:11 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AYW1-0000O0-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 16:59:05 +0100 Received: from m11.boston.juno.com ([64.136.24.74]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AYVz-0000Nv-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 16:59:04 +0100 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"yokUgcxCbtTP7XLrpefewD2RpkuhdhSoyf5/LyktwNBJ6CbZlYjQFQ=="> Received: (from riese-k3djc@juno.com) by m11.boston.juno.com (jqueuemail) id G3E5FSWU; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:58:05 EDT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:42:42 -0400 Subject: Re: LF: RE: Re: RE: Re: Re: [Lowfer] RE: litz wire Message-ID: <20020522.115626.-742937.0.riese-k3djc@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-19 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "BOB RIESE" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Thank you for the help in the soldering problem my friend but I do not wish to continue a dialog of 70% unmeasured, and unverified BS. Regards Bill It was starting to make my head ache too HAR Any up dates on the time to publish the final chapter on the Loop ?? looks like the FCC is going to make it hard fer folks to radiate 1 Watt and the loop is going to be my answer when the time comes to 137 Khz ( is that a verb ?? ) Oh ,,, its efforts from folks like you that give interest to folks like ME ! Bob K3DJC From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9859 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 11:19:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 11:19:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 18011 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 11:19:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 11:19:21 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AU5u-0008LV-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 12:15:50 +0100 Received: from mta4-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.44]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AU5t-0008LQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 12:15:49 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.228.255]) by mta4-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020522111546.DLCZ29003.mta4-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 12:15:46 +0100 Message-ID: <002a01c20182$2a045b20$ffe4fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000c01c1ff5b$456a8480$8ce4fc3e@l8p8y6> <005601c1ff7d$fb579360$5ab51bca@xtr743187> Subject: LF: Re: Re: pegelmesser Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:03:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Vernall
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 10:40 PM
Subject: LF: Re: pegelmesser

Mal,
 
The frequency stability of any selective level meter with a VFO for a local oscillator makes them suspect for staying tuned within a fraction of a Hz for long periods.  The digital display on a Siemens D2019 I have merely counts the VFO (with a constant 100 kHz offset to give passband centre frequency) and numbers actually change with VFO warmup.  The display is to 10 Hz, so it can not be used for pre-setting to a QRSS signal that is expected to be below the noise and therefore impractical to try tuning by "ear".  As well, the BFO is a free-running RC oscillator so the recovered audio can have further drift of centre frequency.
 
There are some selective level meters with master oscillator arrangements for tuning and demodulation, and can have fractional Hz stability.
 
In saying the obvious, selective level meters are primarily intended for determining signal levels.
 
Hello Bob
 
Look for a pegelmesser with phased locked loop oscillators, synthisized etc the same as mine and you will find they make a great LF receiver, especially the models with the 20 hz filters.
Even the free running osc type are useful if kept switched on all the time and inside the house with a fairly constant temperature and not outside in the bicycle shed!!
 I do not have any trouble resolving and keeping signals within the 20 hz bandwidth for hours at a time. I especially like the W&G SPM-12, with the 10 khz IF output. I built an external product det, audio stage and it works extremely well,  very sensitive and the filters are well suited to LF work.
73 de Mal/G3KEV
 
 
 
Bob ZL2CA
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: (qmail 21076 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 04:33:44 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 04:33:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 1246 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 04:33:28 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 04:33:28 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ANmC-0007ZJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 05:31:04 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ANmB-0007ZE-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 05:31:03 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu07.dialup2.infomsk.ru [212.164.44.119]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA3ceb1dc110bb for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:25:37 +0700 (OSS) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:06:09 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Burred conterpoise Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi, Group! I have just derived formula for ground loss when conterpoise is burred. Configuration is the same then conterpoise is elevated. But now h is conterpoise depth. Also wire radius r appears in the formula. Ground loss resistance for this case is: R = 0.5*R0*ln( (H+h)^4/(8*H^2*r*h) If H>>h then it can be simplifired: R= 0.5*R0*ln( H^2/(8*r*h) ) As for elevated conterpoise it should be h>r here. It seems interesting then if h=r (conterpoise is lie on ground surface) formulas for elevated and burred conterpoise yeld approximately the same. Some difference is not suprisely because this is the limit when formulas works. Also it seems very interesting and worth that antenna ground loss resistance is NOT EQUAL to such a ground system resistance (on DC for example). Groung system (horisontal burred wire) resistance is: R = 0.5*R0*ln( l^2/(2*r*h) ) It is not very suprisely if note then E-field lines is essentialy different for ground system and antenna with burred conterpoise. If it is an antenna E-field lines starts on conterpoise and goes to antenna. If it is a 'pure' ground system E-field lines starts on the conterpoise and goes to infinity. Another field configuration yelds another resistance. It seems to me extremely worth then formulas show the conderpoise wich lie on soil surface is the extremely bad case. To reduce losses conterpoise should be elevated or burred to adequate depth. To elevate is better... 73 de RA9MB/Alex http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7545 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 03:29:16 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 03:29:16 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 27313 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 03:29:01 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 03:29:01 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AMiV-0007QV-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 04:23:11 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AMiU-0007QQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 04:23:10 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 24321 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 03:21:33 -0000 Received: from merimac.us.gases.boc.com (HELO merimac) (204.149.80.4) by server-18.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 22 May 2002 03:21:33 -0000 Received: by EXC_WIL04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 21 May 2002 23:29:34 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Re: RE: Re: Re: [Lowfer] RE: litz wire Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 23:11:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Mal, As the result of becoming gray from learning how to do things the hard way, I now conclude that it is far better to FIRST lay out the theory of what I am intending to design. This would include a sufficient number of equations describing the behavior of all the variables. Then I do the best job I can to verify the math using bench tests of all components. As a final step I determine if the performance of the design is as predicted from the math. If not, I go back to the design equations and determine what went wrong and then begin the process over again. Note, that for LF antenna designs where nothing is a certainty, my approach is NOT to simply set up a the new antenna and call up my friend 40 miles away and ask for an S reading. In terms of the use of #12 Litz wire (the subject of miles of postings over the last two weeks), I have just designed a 4X #12 cable for my 50'/50' loop using the above approach that has an AC resistance including ground loss of 0.39 ohms. As far as I know this is the lowest resistance ever achieved for a TX loop antenna of this size at 185k. And yes, anyone doubting this measurement, may stop in and check it out. Thank you for the help in the soldering problem my friend but I do not wish to continue a dialog of 70% unmeasured, and unverified BS. Regards Bill -----Original Message----- From: hamilton mal [mailto:g3kev.ham@virgin.net] Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 1:14 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: RE: Re: Re: [Lowfer] RE: litz wire ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashlock,William" To: Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 8:39 PM Subject: LF: RE: Re: Re: [Lowfer] RE: litz wire > Mal, > > >I have wound a loading coil using decca 729 strands litz and another 2.5mm > >teflon insulated wire one and compared results. On air measurements and > >reports are identical, regardless of what theory dictates. > > Am I going to have to send you a loading coil made from #12 copper and and Bill. Try HW #12 pure copper tube, not the alloy mix you get these days for commercial wiring and plumbing, even better SPT (silver plated tube tube) Gold plate tube even better, very low RAC. These are all easy to solder and although hard to get out perform all other varieties, available in all sizes from diameters barely visible to sizes that need a fork lift to move about. 73 de G3KEV > another with identical dimentions from #12 Litz to prove to you there is a > 2x reduction in Rac? Assume you have a way to make these measurements? Using > on-air measurements as a way to measure a change less than 3db is not a > sound approach, especially if the A/B change can't be accomplished by simply > flipping a switch. This change in fact could be under 2db due to the > additional series resistance in the circuit added by soil loss. > > Regards, > Bill A > > _____________________________________________________________________ > This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered > through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit > http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ > > _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19815 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 00:12:04 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 00:12:04 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 3141 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 00:11:55 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2002 00:11:55 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AJfR-00071t-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 01:07:49 +0100 Received: from imo-r07.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.103]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AJfQ-00071J-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 01:07:48 +0100 Received: from G0MRF@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.180.7fd7611 (4158) for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 20:07:07 -0400 (EDT) From: G0MRF@aol.com Message-ID: <180.7fd7611.2a1c3b2a@aol.com> Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 20:07:06 EDT Subject: Re: LF: Trafalgar PCB? To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows UK sub 10512 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit In a message dated 5/20/02 8:41:20 PM GMT Daylight Time, sv1xv@eexi.gr writes:


Hi, I received today (!!) the May 2002 RadCom and read EI3CY's
article about an LF receiver. I did not find any reference to
a source of PCBs for this project. Does anybody know any source
for this item?

73 Costas SV1XV






I recall it said to "express an interest" to EI3CY and if enough people did, then he would have a batch made.

73

David  G0MRF

www.g0mrf.freeserve.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16357 invoked from network); 21 May 2002 17:50:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 21 May 2002 17:50:21 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 14781 invoked from network); 21 May 2002 17:50:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 21 May 2002 17:50:11 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ADdx-0006AW-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 21 May 2002 18:41:53 +0100 Received: from nat6.excitenetwork.com ([63.236.75.8] helo=xmxpita.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17ADdw-0006AR-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 21 May 2002 18:41:52 +0100 Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id 099FB1E475; Tue, 21 May 2002 13:41:17 -0400 (EDT) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: LX1PD Received: from [62.253.64.8] by xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; Tue, 21 May 2002 13:41:17 EST From: "john sexton" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: computernetworks@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20020521174117.099FB1E475@xmxpita.excite.com> Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:41:17 -0400 (EDT) Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All,
I heard LX1PD back on the air yesterday calling CQ but he seems to be as deaf as ever, since I heard DL3FDO (I think) calling him to no avail.
As far as I remember he has a valve transmitter and puts out quite a good strong signal. Pity he hasn't done anything about the receive side. You can't work them if you can't hear them.
73, John, G4CNN


Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web! From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20129 invoked from network); 21 May 2002 03:06:55 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 21 May 2002 03:06:55 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 25189 invoked from network); 21 May 2002 03:06:38 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 21 May 2002 03:06:38 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179ztJ-0004Rt-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 21 May 2002 04:00:49 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179ztH-0004Ro-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 21 May 2002 04:00:47 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu07.dialup2.infomsk.ru [212.164.44.119]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA3ce9b70a136f for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 09:55:06 +0700 (OSS) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:35:38 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: more acurate formula for ground loss In-reply-to: <20020520125514.34500B6D7@xmxpita.excite.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi John and Group. On Mon, 20 May 2002, john sexton wrote: > Putting in the same antenna details as before, the new formula gives 38 ohms, still too low by a factor of over 2, but much better than with the first formula. May be 93 - 38 = 55 ohms is enviroment loss. And if make conterpoise up from the ground about 1 or 2 meters, ground loss reduces from 38 to about 5omhs. So total loss will be 55+5=60 omhs. But it is the matter of experiment... It seems very interesting and worth to do 'pure' experiment in field far from trees and buildings when no enviroment losses present and when conterpoise is up from the ground and conterpoise length is equal to antenna length. NEC-2 confirms the formula but this is only computer modeling, not real measurement! If it will be no problem to estimate ground loss itself then it will be posible to separate ground and enviroment losses when doing experiments. So experimental study of enviroment losses itself will be possible and ways to reduce enviroment loss will become more obvious. Now we do not know what part of total loss is ground loss and what is enviroment loss itself. > However in order to do this since my earth wires are actually buried I used a value of h = .0005 (1mm diam. wire) the minimum value permitted with your formula. It seems reasonable. My generalised mirror reflection theory can be used for burred conterpoise also I hope. It is only matter of time. Now I want to ensure this theory for simple conditions. Complex conditions is a next step. 73 de RA9MB/Alex http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25641 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 20:45:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 20:45:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 28427 invoked by uid 10001); 20 May 2002 20:49:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 20:49:11 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179tzC-0003k1-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 21:42:30 +0100 Received: from www.gardaol.com ([195.223.232.51] helo=netregister.it ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179tzB-0003jw-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 21:42:29 +0100 Received: from ik2dedlibero (brescia27.phoenix.it [213.82.97.91]) by netregister.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g4KKgOX18094 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 22:42:24 +0200 Message-ID: <006401c1e020$ed9c3fe0$5b6152d5@it> From: "Giulio Scaroni" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <003f01c20027$53cf1500$bacdfc3e@l8p8y6> Subject: LF: Re: Siemens Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 01:47:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
 
Mal,
we have here a unit W&G SPM 12 that run 24 hours at day used for our relay LF to 2 meters FM, the filters used is the 1800 HZ, without AGC, and powered from a 12 VDC voltage battery, in this way also without the AC line the syntetizer dont lost the frequency tuned.
For me work very well, all the signal received with my 80 metrs vertical and IC737 with converter, are also on SPM 12 with a 40 metrs high vertical located on a 600 meters high hill and retrasmitted in 2 meters FM.
The stability for qrss 3 is excellent.
For me this is an excellent receiver, bought here few mounths ago in hamfest for 180 Euro.
73 Giulio Ik2DED.
In spite of what some say this device is very stable, but I use it inside in a fairly constant temperature, not outside in a garden shed.
AGC is not necessary. On LF it is more desireable not to use agc, otherwise static takes over to the detriment of weak signals.
Tuned to various signals during the weekend, all signals stayed within the 20 hz bw. It works well.
All signals were monitored on speclab and argo.
Someone said they preferred a 300 hz bw. How  can anyone work with this sort of bw on LF !!!!!
and hear the very weak signals. I now know why I hear dx stations calling some UK station, that do not reply !!!!! They obviously do not have the optimum signal over noise with a 300 hz bw.
I listened and watched the recent Russian signals on both the Siemens and W&G and had no problem with stability. I saw no wobble of variation at all.
Another point. Dont switch your pegelmesser on and off each time you use it. Leave it on all the time to stablize the oscillators, mine stay on for weeks at a time. On commercial radio stations all equipment is left on 24 hrs each day and every day of the year.
The W&G spm-12 is synthesized.
73 de Mal/G3KEV
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13720 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 20:25:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 20:25:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 23347 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 20:25:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 20:25:46 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179tdo-0003fy-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 21:20:24 +0100 Received: from www.gardaol.com ([195.223.232.51] helo=netregister.it ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179tdm-0003ft-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 21:20:22 +0100 Received: from ik2dedlibero (brescia27.phoenix.it [213.82.97.91]) by netregister.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g4KKKIX05330 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 22:20:18 +0200 Message-ID: <002101c1e01d$d5c649e0$5b6152d5@it> From: "Giulio Scaroni" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: Re: LF: USA 136kHz proposals Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 01:23:48 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: John wrote: > > One of the reasons cited in the FCC Notice of Proposed Rulemaking is an > objection filed by Texas Instruments, who make "smart card" readers that work > at 121 kHz. They're afraid hams are going to operate with such huge power > and with such dirty signals that we would interfere with their lucrative (and > totally unallocated) use of the LF spectrum. > John KD4IDY Few hams what may do when in opposite side they have such big industry??? Little or nothing i think, this is the reason becouse i think that very soon all the low band, 136 and top band may will be unusable for hams activity for the jamming made by all this new digital sistem, like this unallocated used by Texas and not only, but also from many others company, in LF, and the others like the ADSL for fast internet. Here, at about 500 meters or less from my house, a friend has installed a Texas Tiris system for car identification in a big firm. The equipment is the S251B that work (transmitt) at 134.2 khz, well, the antenna is a big few inch underground isolated loop of 27 uH, feeded direcly from the S251B. In my station not a signal from this sistem is audible, also with spectrogram, so absolutely not interference is produced between hams and this equipment, when the all two installation are well made!!! (The only interesting thing from this product is that Texas produce also a very very little TX, i dont know the power but it use two big final Fet, that may be used from USA hams in 136, i think without any modification, look on internet at "Texas Tiris") About the limitations in BW by FCC, i think that with 800 Hz many mode used in LF may be used, like slow cw, qrs, dfcw and Jason that have also more or less the same BW...., yes for high speed cw the better is use another band. For the bandplan i agree with James, bandplan in all band is ever in evolution, new digi modes in few years may change the cw / digital bandplan in all the band, and not only in cw, there are experiment also in digital voice, in LF here in Europe there are very little activity in digi mode, not so many in qrs dfcw and, i think more in aural cw in central Europe (loocking the PCL), so the conclusion is that our EU bandplan in LF for this time is good, but tomorrow we also may need to change this situation. Now the only problem that we can have in reception USA signals at top end of the band is that they are in the middle of qrs EU band, so may be better use for NA to EU window the segment between 137.3 to 137.4 Khz, far from 137.6/137.8, and near to digi band not much used here. Only an opinion!! 73 to all de IK2DED Giulio. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 840 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 19:41:45 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 19:41:45 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 18290 invoked by uid 10001); 20 May 2002 19:45:39 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 19:45:39 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179szb-0003ZZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 20:38:51 +0100 Received: from orion.ozo.com ([212.70.193.242]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179szZ-0003ZU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 20:38:50 +0100 Received: from aurora.eexi.gr (aurora.eexi.gr [195.167.28.4]) by orion.ozo.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4KJb7J30838 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 22:37:08 +0300 Received: from s9o9f0.eexi.gr (ppp38.dialup.eexi.gr [195.167.28.102]) by aurora.eexi.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4KJoVO32293 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 22:50:31 +0300 Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020520223432.00ac5290@aurora.eexi.gr> X-Sender: sv1xv@aurora.eexi.gr (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 22:36:36 +0300 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Costas Krallis SV1XV" Subject: LF: Trafalgar PCB? In-reply-to: <003f01c20027$53cf1500$bacdfc3e@l8p8y6> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi, I received today (!!) the May 2002 RadCom and read EI3CY's article about an LF receiver. I did not find any reference to a source of PCBs for this project. Does anybody know any source for this item? 73 Costas SV1XV +------------------------------------------------------------+ | Costas Krallis SV1XV * LOC KM18UA | | P.O.Box 3066 * E-Mail: sv1xv@eexi.gr | | GR-10210 Athens * PGP key: 0x3BDBBC34 | | GREECE * http://www.qsl.net/sv1xv/ | +------------------------------------------------------------+ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29200 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 18:22:48 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 18:22:48 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 21403 invoked by uid 10001); 20 May 2002 18:26:44 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 18:26:44 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179rkt-0003Pb-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 19:19:35 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179rks-0003PW-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 19:19:34 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 179rkq-0000xX-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 19:19:32 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 179rkq-0001Xj-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 19:19:32 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020520191257.00b07130@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 19:19:31 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: VLF Transmission? (slightly off topic) In-reply-to: <192.74c2c27.2a1a9473@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 14:03 20/05/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Just wondering if any members of the group can confirm a scheduled >commemorative transmission of the Alexanderson alternator at SAQ on 30 June? I do recall a transmission has been scheduled for this date - usually the "Friends of Alexander" distribute more detailed info about the transmission nearer the time, but the preliminary date can normally be relied upon. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16045 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 18:07:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 18:07:08 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 27482 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 18:06:52 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 18:06:52 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179rW7-0003MR-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 19:04:19 +0100 Received: from imo-r10.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.106]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179rW6-0003ME-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 19:04:18 +0100 Received: from WarmSpgs@aol.com by imo-r10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.192.74c2c27 (30963) for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 14:03:31 -0400 (EDT) From: WarmSpgs@aol.com Message-ID: <192.74c2c27.2a1a9473@aol.com> Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 14:03:31 EDT Subject: LF: VLF Transmission? (slightly off topic) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Just wondering if any members of the group can confirm a scheduled commemorative transmission of the Alexanderson alternator at SAQ on 30 June? I have a report to that effect, but the www.telemuseum.se server appears to have been down for a couple of days, so I am unable to verify or obtain details from them. If anyone has already heard of this purported transmission and can supply any additional information to the group, I'm sure it will be most appreciated. 73 John Davis From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12411 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 18:01:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 18:01:49 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 4292 invoked by uid 10001); 20 May 2002 18:05:45 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 18:05:45 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179rRC-0003Jb-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 18:59:14 +0100 Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.38]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179rRB-0003JV-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 18:59:13 +0100 Received: from WarmSpgs@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.92.2617f910 (30963) for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 13:58:35 -0400 (EDT) From: WarmSpgs@aol.com Message-ID: <92.2617f910.2a1a934b@aol.com> Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 13:58:35 EDT Subject: Re: LF: US FCC NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULE MAKING, Comments To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: In a message dated 5/20/02 8:02:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, j.r.moritz@herts.ac.uk writes: << Do you think it would be useful to send this type of comment directly to the FCC, or would it be better to do it via AMRAD/LWCA/ARRL etc? >> My personal assessment of the situation is that it would be good to send it directly to the FCC, and to ARRL as well, since they are the organization who filed the petition for rulemaking and are most obliged to support it before the Commission. Comments from amateurs who have been "in the trenches" for a few years, so to speak, will carry some weight with the Commission; and will enable ARRL to better shape their own comments and responses. 73 John From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28820 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 17:55:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 17:55:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 18212 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 17:55:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 17:55:31 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179rLC-0003IM-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 18:53:02 +0100 Received: from mta3-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.43]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179rLB-0003IH-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 18:53:01 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.205.186]) by mta3-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020520175259.QKVS24398.mta3-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 18:52:59 +0100 Message-ID: <003f01c20027$53cf1500$bacdfc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Siemens Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 18:52:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
In spite of what some say this device is very stable, but I use it inside in a fairly constant temperature, not outside in a garden shed.
AGC is not necessary. On LF it is more desireable not to use agc, otherwise static takes over to the detriment of weak signals.
Tuned to various signals during the weekend, all signals stayed within the 20 hz bw. It works well.
All signals were monitored on speclab and argo.
Someone said they preferred a 300 hz bw. How  can anyone work with this sort of bw on LF !!!!!
and hear the very weak signals. I now know why I hear dx stations calling some UK station, that do not reply !!!!! They obviously do not have the optimum signal over noise with a 300 hz bw.
I listened and watched the recent Russian signals on both the Siemens and W&G and had no problem with stability. I saw no wobble of variation at all.
Another point. Dont switch your pegelmesser on and off each time you use it. Leave it on all the time to stablize the oscillators, mine stay on for weeks at a time. On commercial radio stations all equipment is left on 24 hrs each day and every day of the year.
The W&G spm-12 is synthesized.
73 de Mal/G3KEV
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7335 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 17:19:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 17:19:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 4857 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 17:19:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 17:19:01 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179qir-0003D7-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 18:13:25 +0100 Received: from mta3-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.43]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179qiq-0003D2-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 18:13:24 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.230.214]) by mta3-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020520171322.PPIR24398.mta3-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 18:13:22 +0100 Message-ID: <000b01c20021$ca9246e0$d6e6fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: LF: Re: RE: Re: Re: [Lowfer] RE: litz wire Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 18:13:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashlock,William" To: Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 8:39 PM Subject: LF: RE: Re: Re: [Lowfer] RE: litz wire > Mal, > > >I have wound a loading coil using decca 729 strands litz and another 2.5mm > >teflon insulated wire one and compared results. On air measurements and > >reports are identical, regardless of what theory dictates. > > Am I going to have to send you a loading coil made from #12 copper and and Bill. Try HW #12 pure copper tube, not the alloy mix you get these days for commercial wiring and plumbing, even better SPT (silver plated tube tube) Gold plate tube even better, very low RAC. These are all easy to solder and although hard to get out perform all other varieties, available in all sizes from diameters barely visible to sizes that need a fork lift to move about. 73 de G3KEV > another with identical dimentions from #12 Litz to prove to you there is a > 2x reduction in Rac? Assume you have a way to make these measurements? Using > on-air measurements as a way to measure a change less than 3db is not a > sound approach, especially if the A/B change can't be accomplished by simply > flipping a switch. This change in fact could be under 2db due to the > additional series resistance in the circuit added by soil loss. > > Regards, > Bill A > > _____________________________________________________________________ > This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered > through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit > http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22418 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 15:07:52 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 15:07:52 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 10329 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 15:07:32 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 15:07:32 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179oem-0002wr-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 16:01:04 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179oeX-0002va-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 16:00:52 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu07.dialup2.infomsk.ru [212.164.44.119]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA3ce90ef442e7 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 21:57:56 +0700 (OSS) Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 22:38:26 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: more acurate formula for ground loss In-reply-to: <20020520125514.34500B6D7@xmxpita.excite.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi John and Group! On Mon, 20 May 2002, john sexton wrote: > Hi Sasha, > Putting in the same antenna details as before, > the new formula gives 38 ohms, still too low by a factor of over 2, > but much better than with the first formula. I just compare the formula to NEC-2 (Sommerfeld ground) modeling and get such a result: H=20m, l=100m, s=1mSm/m h Rin Rrad Rg Rg formula/NEC m NEC NEC formula 0.5 6.67 0.13 6.54 7.47 1.14 1 4.97 0.12 4.85 5.43 1.12 2 3.31 0.11 3.20 3.52 1.10 3 2.42 0.10 2.32 2.51 1.08 4 1.83 0.08 1.75 1.87 1.07 It seems differences is due to not enought segmentation in modeling (1 meter of segment length). I can't do better segmentation because of my computer is not so good... 73 de RA9MB/Alex http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28104 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 12:58:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 12:58:53 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 8219 invoked by uid 10001); 20 May 2002 13:02:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 13:02:47 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179mhZ-0002fX-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 13:55:49 +0100 Received: from nat3.excitenetwork.com ([63.236.75.5] helo=xmxpita.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179mhY-0002fS-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 13:55:48 +0100 Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id 34500B6D7; Mon, 20 May 2002 08:55:14 -0400 (EDT) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: more acurate formula for ground loss Received: from [62.253.64.8] by xprdmailfe14.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; Mon, 20 May 2002 08:55:14 EST From: "john sexton" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: computernetworks@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20020520125514.34500B6D7@xmxpita.excite.com> Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 08:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender:
Hi Sasha,
Putting in the same antenna details as before, the new formula gives 38 ohms, still too low by a factor of over 2, but much better than with the first formula.
However in order to do this since my earth wires are actually buried I used a value of h = .0005 (1mm diam. wire) the minimum value permitted with your formula. Since H >> h, the reduced formula is appropriate, but that is very sensitive to the value of h when h is small, so I think the result I obtained is pretty meaningless. Also my ground mat consists of many wires, in many directions, together with 4 or 5 ground rods of 2 metre length.
To assume that H << L (1?) is also not appropriate, since that would be a vertical with a small top hat.

One problem with your email, which perhaps you can please clarify, both lower case L(l) and the number 1 (one) look exactly the same. Is the length of the horizontal part L or One? Is the counterpoise length L or One?

Great to see you are still working on this formula.
73, John, G4CNN


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From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19064 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 12:03:17 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 12:03:17 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 16864 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 12:03:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 12:03:00 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179loe-0002Y8-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 12:59:04 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179lod-0002Y3-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 12:59:03 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 179loc-00064C-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 12:59:02 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 179loa-0003d4-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 12:59:01 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020520113548.00a9dc88@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 12:59:00 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: US FCC NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULE MAKING, Comments In-reply-to: <3CE7973B.9632FE7D@verizon.net> References: <200205190132_MC3-FE8D-F284@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Andre, LF Group, Regarding ERP and so on, significant points that can be drawn from European experience on LF are: Measurements by several people have shown that the efficiencies achieved by typical amateur LF antennas are rarely better than 0.1%, and normally rather less. So a 100W PEP TX power limit in practice would limit EIRP to less than 0.1W for the vast majority of amateur stations - experience shows that to get 1W EIRP with 100W transmit power probably requires a favourably located antenna around 30m high. Even with unlimited transmitter power available, EIRP greater than 1W would be difficult to achieve from many amateur locations due to electrical breakdown of the antenna. Only a small minority of European stations approach our 1W ERP limit, in spite of the fact that transmitter powers are normally well over 100W. A TX power limited to 100W seems unnecessarily restrictive. In Europe, the availability of higher transmit powers means that less well-off amateurs can generate usable signal levels without having to acquire large tracts of real estate for antennas! It is certainly possible to make consistent measurements of ERP, although difficult for the average amateur station. However, an estimate can easily be made from a knowledge of the antenna geometry (effective height or area) and a measurement of the antenna current. The actual ERP determined by field strength measurements is invariably lower than the figure given by this estimate by an amount depending on environmental factors, usually in the range 0-10dB. So a safely conservative (from the regulatory point of view) estimate of ERP can be made from very simple measurements. In the European context, signal levels are present in the range of kilowatts to megawatts ERP from numerous broadcast and utility transmitters throughout the LF frequency range. There seems to be little interference caused to the operation of other electronic systems by breakthrough of these high level signals, which are obviously vastly greater than any feasible amateur signal level. Short range RF tagging systems using the 125kHz and 134kHz frequencies seem to be successfully in use over here, in spite of these large signal levels, so amateur LF operation would seem to pose little threat to these systems. I don't know if the power utilities in Europe use the same type of LF PLC systems (perhaps that is what the "Watford Whistle" carrier on 136.647kHz I D/F'ed to some power lines a while ago is.) The other side to the above is that, because they are relatively of extremely low power, amateur LF signals experience high levels of unintentional interference from numerous sources - for instance noise sidebands and intermodulation from high power LF transmitters (especially Loran), and switching noise from a wide range of mains driven appliances. These are often a severe limitation on amateur operation at LF, and would be considerably more of a problem with the proposed US power limits. Do you think it would be useful to send this type of comment directly to the FCC, or would it be better to do it via AMRAD/LWCA/ARRL etc? Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26068 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 06:53:39 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 06:53:39 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 5109 invoked by uid 10001); 20 May 2002 06:57:33 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 06:57:33 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179h0m-0001zS-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 07:51:16 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179h0k-0001zN-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 07:51:15 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu07.dialup2.infomsk.ru [212.164.44.119]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA3ce89c2360a4 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 13:48:03 +0700 (OSS) Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 14:28:36 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: more exectly... In-reply-to: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: On Mon, 20 May 2002, Alexander S. Yurkov wrote: > > May be if conterpoise is up from the ground it is posible to decrease > ground loss compared to case when conterpoise lie on the ground or is > burred. More exectly: "... to increase antenna effectivity...". If h is increased R is decreased truely, but "antenna radiation height" H-h is decreased also. But R is decreasing more quickly... 73 de RA9MB/Alex http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: (qmail 11894 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 06:11:00 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 06:11:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 22693 invoked by uid 10001); 20 May 2002 06:14:54 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 06:14:54 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179gIc-0001tU-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 07:05:38 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179gIb-0001tP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 07:05:37 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu05.dialup1.infomsk.ru [212.164.45.197]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA3ce891ec5930 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 13:04:28 +0700 (OSS) Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 13:45:00 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Forgot to notice... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I forgot to notice. Conterpoise is under horisontal part of antenna assumed. Wires is parallel. 73 de RA9MB/Alex http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: (qmail 28717 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 06:02:05 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 06:02:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 20212 invoked by uid 10001); 20 May 2002 06:05:59 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2002 06:05:59 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179g9I-0001rE-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 06:56:01 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179g9H-0001r9-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 06:55:59 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu07.dialup2.infomsk.ru [212.164.44.119]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA3ce88f675731 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 12:53:43 +0700 (OSS) Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 13:34:15 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: more acurate formula for ground loss Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi, Group! I have derived more acurate formula for ground loss then previous one. This formula show previous formula is extremely aproximate. Factor of number units was losssed... New formula is derived for such a configuration. T or inverted L antenna is assumed. Height of horisontal part of antenna is H. It lenght is l. Conterpoise is up (!!!) from the ground on heght of h. h can not be less then wire radius. Conterpose length is l also. H< Received: (qmail 10557 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 23:38:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2002 23:38:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 17952 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 23:38:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2002 23:38:34 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179a3M-0001AD-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 00:25:28 +0100 Received: from smarthost2.mail.uk.easynet.net ([212.135.6.12]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179a3L-0001A8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 00:25:27 +0100 Received: from tnt-21-154.easynet.co.uk ([212.134.228.154] helo=erica) by smarthost2.mail.uk.easynet.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 179a3I-000O3j-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 May 2002 00:25:25 +0100 Message-ID: <000001c1ff8d$c9bc0a60$9ae486d4@erica> From: "g3ldo" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000c01c1ff5b$456a8480$8ce4fc3e@l8p8y6> Subject: LF: Re: pegelmesser Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 19:50:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Mal said: >I have today been testing a Siemens Pegelmesser D2155 as a LF receiver. >Freq range 200 hz - 620 khz. B/widths 20 hz and 3.1 khz. Mode lsb/usb. >This instrument makes a fb LF receiver for 73 and 136 khz, with the narrow 20 hz filter and superb sensitivity. >.... These selective pegelmessers outperform any other receiver that I tried on LF, including the FT1000mp/ >FT847/IC746/IC706/TS850/TS50, the performance of these receivers are acceptable and some are much >better than others but sensitivity is generally poor on LF, and selectivity with the normal 200 hz filter is too wide, >although those with DSP are better. I have had a Siemens Pegelmesser D2155 for some time and find that they are excellent for what they are designed for - making signal level measurements. However, as a general LF receiver I wouldn't swap it for my TS850, which has plenty of sensitivity, even on small loop antennas. For QRSS operation the selectivity is determined by the software so it can be used with any receiver bandwidth setting provided that there are no big signals in the passband that may desensitise or crossmod the receiver. I have used the D2155 for CW but it is very tedious to on 20Hz - all the signals have the same note. Although the D2155 has a digital frequency readout the oscillator is analogue with a digital frequency counter, which means it does not have the resolution or stability required for the narrowband stuff we using now. I think this difficulty could be overcome with an external DDS oscillator. I think the Siemens Pegelmesser D2155 would make a good receiver if the 3.1kHz filter could be converted to something like 300Hz. There is no AGC on these units as this would defeat the purpose for which they are designed. Regards, Peter, G3LDO e-mail Web From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7403 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 22:25:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2002 22:25:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 1577 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 22:24:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2002 22:24:56 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179Z2i-0000yA-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 19 May 2002 23:20:44 +0100 Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au ([203.26.10.16]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179Z2g-0000y5-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 19 May 2002 23:20:42 +0100 Received: from steve (ppp185.dyn154.pacific.net.au [210.23.154.185]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07311; Mon, 20 May 2002 08:20:34 +1000 Message-ID: <006301c1ff83$a04bb7c0$b99a17d2@steve> From: "Steve Olney" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, qrssknights@cnts.be, lowfer@mailman.qth.net Subject: LF: OLMEC... another linear (fun) mode... Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 08:22:02 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: G'day All, I have been playing around with another mode I dreamed up (although of course I am sure someone has already thought of it :-). I call it OLMEC (no, not derived from OLney's Mildly Eccentric Code, but from OrthogonaL MorsE Code). I thought of it while looking at some ancient Olmec and Maya scripts, in particular the dot and bar numbering systems. If you are interested go to:- www.zeta.org.au/~ollaneg and look under Experimental Modes for the OLMEC link. 73s Steve Olney VK2ZTO From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17573 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 21:42:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2002 21:42:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 12023 invoked by uid 10001); 19 May 2002 21:46:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2002 21:46:06 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179YOz-0000rN-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 19 May 2002 22:39:41 +0100 Received: from 210-86-15-139.ipnets.xtra.co.nz ([210.86.15.139] helo=web4-rme.xtra.co.nz) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179YOy-0000rI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 19 May 2002 22:39:40 +0100 Received: from xtr743187 ([202.27.181.90]) by web4-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20020519213903.OKCF12047.web4-rme.xtra.co.nz@xtr743187> for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 09:39:03 +1200 Message-ID: <005601c1ff7d$fb579360$5ab51bca@xtr743187> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000c01c1ff5b$456a8480$8ce4fc3e@l8p8y6> Subject: LF: Re: pegelmesser Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 09:40:23 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Mal,
 
The frequency stability of any selective level meter with a VFO for a local oscillator makes them suspect for staying tuned within a fraction of a Hz for long periods.  The digital display on a Siemens D2019 I have merely counts the VFO (with a constant 100 kHz offset to give passband centre frequency) and numbers actually change with VFO warmup.  The display is to 10 Hz, so it can not be used for pre-setting to a QRSS signal that is expected to be below the noise and therefore impractical to try tuning by "ear".  As well, the BFO is a free-running RC oscillator so the recovered audio can have further drift of centre frequency.
 
There are some selective level meters with master oscillator arrangements for tuning and demodulation, and can have fractional Hz stability.
 
In saying the obvious, selective level meters are primarily intended for determining signal levels.
 
Bob ZL2CA
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21714 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 20:51:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2002 20:51:11 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 26383 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 20:50:53 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2002 20:50:53 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179XbV-0000kK-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 19 May 2002 21:48:33 +0100 Received: from imo-r02.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.98]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179XbU-0000k6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 19 May 2002 21:48:32 +0100 Received: from WarmSpgs@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.18.1f68df9a (3311) for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 16:47:51 -0400 (EDT) From: WarmSpgs@aol.com Message-ID: <18.1f68df9a.2a196977@aol.com> Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 16:47:51 EDT Subject: Re: LF: US FCC NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULE MAKING, Comments To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: In a message dated 5/19/02 1:34:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, DK8KW@compuserve.com writes: << If the rules as proposed (1 Watt EIRP, 100 Watt PEP) becomes true, it might be very difficult to find any future partner stations for transatlantic QSOs. >> I also join Andre' in urging international comments to be filed in the rulemaking. Surely, being able to communicate with amateurs using this same band in other parts of the globe is a legitimate interest on the part of European hams. Moreover, your actual experiences involving interaction (or lack thereof!) with ID devices, powerline controllers, or any other consumer and industrial devices, will lend a much needed real-world perspective to the proceeding. We will also soon have additional information at the lwca.org Web site on filing comments in FCC proceedings. However, for informal comments, you should be able to get a very good idea about how to file from the site Geri mentioned. Obtain some of the individual filings from the FCC site as an example of the format to use, and be sure to include the docket or NPRM number above your comments. 73, John Davis From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3214 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 17:35:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2002 17:35:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 14123 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 17:34:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2002 17:34:54 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179UXc-0000N2-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 19 May 2002 18:32:20 +0100 Received: from mta7-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.47]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179UXb-0000Mx-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 19 May 2002 18:32:19 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.228.140]) by mta7-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020519173217.NCTO8332.mta7-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 18:32:17 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c1ff5b$456a8480$8ce4fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: pegelmesser Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 18:32:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
I have today been testing a Siemens Pegelmesser D2155 as a LF receiver.
Freq range 200 hz - 620 khz. B/widths 20 hz and 3.1 khz. Mode lsb/usb.
This instrument makes a fb LF receiver for 73 and 136 khz, with the narrow 20 hz filter and superb sensitivity. With my 90 metre perimiter loop and vertical I have to throttle the RF attenuater well back even on the weakest signals. The Siemens and the W & G spm-12 peform about the same.
I intend to use both for space diversity reception, one fed by the vertical and the other the loop, then combine the af outputs.
I hope to hear some transatlantic signals later on in the year with this setup. These selective pegelmessers outperform any other receiver that I tried on LF, including the FT1000mp/ FT847/IC746/IC706/TS850/TS50, the performance of these receivers are acceptable and some are much better than others but sensitivity is generally poor on LF, and selectivity with the normal 200 hz filter is too wide, although those with DSP are better.
I use a DSP processer but it is not really necessary with those pegelmessers fitted with 20/25 hz filters.
Pegelmessers in mint/execllent condition are not cheap but compared to alternatives which were never designed for LF working are better value.
73 de Mal/G3KEV
  
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13660 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 16:20:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2002 16:20:45 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 22257 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 16:20:28 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2002 16:20:28 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179THi-0000DM-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 19 May 2002 17:11:50 +0100 Received: from mailgate5.cinetic.de ([217.72.192.165]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179THg-0000D8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 19 May 2002 17:11:49 +0100 Received: from web.de (fmomail02.dlan.cinetic.de [172.20.1.46]) by mailgate5.cinetic.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.0-0.4) with SMTP id g4JGBGX32123 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 19 May 2002 18:11:16 +0200 Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 18:11:16 +0200 Message-ID: <200205191611.g4JGBGX32123@mailgate5.cinetic.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Organization: http://freemail.web.de/ From: "Hans-Albrecht Haffa" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: 3C85 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org schrieb am 17.05.02: > Is there a North American equivalent for the ubiquitous 3C85 core material > (for us folks here in the colonies?) > > Thanks! > > Steve / VE7SL > Dear Steve, 3c85 looks like a Valvo/Philips Ferroxcube Material. It is identical with US-Ferroxcube Material. If You are not shure, just choose any material with the same relative permeability from a US-Manufactuter like Fair-Rite or Stewart. Amidon is just a distributor. 73, Hans-Albrecht DK 8 ND ________________________________________________________________ Keine verlorenen Lotto-Quittungen, keine vergessenen Gewinne mehr! Beim WEB.DE Lottoservice: http://tippen2.web.de/?x=13 From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15191 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 12:15:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2002 12:15:05 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 7761 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 12:14:52 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2002 12:14:52 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179PY8-0008J6-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 19 May 2002 13:12:32 +0100 Received: from out010pub.verizon.net ([206.46.170.133] helo=out010.verizon.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179PY7-0008J1-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 19 May 2002 13:12:31 +0100 Received: from verizon.net ([141.156.37.156]) by out010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020519121157.XBZV3604.out010.verizon.net@verizon.net>; Sun, 19 May 2002 07:11:57 -0500 Message-ID: <3CE7973B.9632FE7D@verizon.net> Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 08:14:51 -0400 From: "Andre Kesteloot" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: US FCC NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULE MAKING, Comments References: <200205190132_MC3-FE8D-F284@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: "'Geri' Kinzel, DK8KW" wrote: > Hello LF-Friends, this time especially those from Europe, > in my previous mail I gave some comments about the U.S. FCC's Notice of > Proposed Rule Making (NPRM) Hello Geri, this practical information about real-world antenna efficiency is, IMHO, _exactly_ the kind of stuff that may help us formulate our comments to the FCC. I have forwarded your msg. to our own reflector () Thanks again and 73 Andrй N4ICK From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26285 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 11:05:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2002 11:05:22 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 10047 invoked by uid 10001); 19 May 2002 11:09:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2002 11:09:12 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179ORj-0008BP-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 19 May 2002 12:01:51 +0100 Received: from e1.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.101]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179ORi-0008BK-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 19 May 2002 12:01:50 +0100 Received: from northrelay01.pok.ibm.com (northrelay01.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.149]) by e1.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4JB1Cg5201700 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 07:01:18 -0400 Received: from usa.net (ss5.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.70]) by northrelay01.pok.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g4JB18g27928 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 07:01:09 -0400 Message-ID: <3CE785D2.578197C2@usa.net> Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 13:00:34 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: USA 136kHz proposals References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020516141438.00a7dd28@gemini.herts.ac.uk> <002501c1fd03$6ce28bc0$1ee8fc3e@l8p8y6> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: hamilton mal wrote: > We need a plan for QRS as I suggested before and above and normal CW > operations. These will be the most popular modes and have worked well so > far. Other modes FSK/BPSK/JASON etc that take up more b/width will have to > be kept separate to avoid qrm and frequency swamping. More bandwidth ? JASON takes slightly more than 4 Hz, which cannot be said for 'normal' CW. 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24805 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 05:38:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2002 05:38:11 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 13899 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 05:37:54 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2002 05:37:54 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179JIo-0007d6-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 19 May 2002 06:32:18 +0100 Received: from siaag2ac.compuserve.com ([149.174.40.133]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179JIm-0007d1-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 19 May 2002 06:32:16 +0100 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by siaag2ac.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.12) id BAA04112 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 19 May 2002 01:32:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 01:31:46 -0400 From: "'Geri' Kinzel, DK8KW" Subject: LF: US FCC NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULE MAKING, Comments Cc: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: <200205190132_MC3-FE8D-F284@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello LF-Friends, this time especially those from Europe, in my previous mail I gave some comments about the U.S. FCC's Notice of Proposed Rule Making (NPRM) on the allocation of the LF band 135.7 - 137.8 kHz in the U.S. If the rules as proposed (1 Watt EIRP, 100 Watt PEP) becomes true, it might be very difficult to find any future partner stations for transatlantic QSOs. We in Europe have gained several years of experience with LF antennas and we have found out that with 100 Watt PEP it is only possible for very large antennas to radiate anything in the 1 W EIRP range. Even in the U.S. the average amateur antenna on LF would not be able to radiate more than 100 mW EIRP with the 100 Watt PEP restriction (desnite maybe ham stations in Texas ;-) One of the major concerns of the FCC are some low-cost/low-power devices that operate several kHz away from our allocation that are used for identification purposes. I have such a device that cotrols my cat flap (my cats have a special key device around their necks, and only those keys will open the flap, so it saves us from having foreign cats in our house eating our cat's food, btw the device is a British product) and under normal conditions this flap will also work if I operate my 350 Watt station on LF, despite the fact the cat flap is directly in my shack, only 1 m away of my loading coil variometer. If those systems are operated some 10 m away from our transmitters, I don't think that there is a risk of getting an interference. The FCC writes in the NPRM: "We seek comment on whether these limits on EIRP and PEP are appropriate." On the FCC website for electronic filing of comments (http://www.fcc.gov/e-file/ecfs.html) I found the note: "7/22/99 International users are able to submit comments via ECFS by completing the required Mailing Address and City fields found on the Cover Sheet. Select "DC" as the state and enter "00000" in the Zip Code field." This means that also international comments are welcome. We should share our European experience with the FCC guys. Maybe this helps to influence the FCC decision to allow at least a higher PEP (maybe also to lift the EIRP limitation to ERP), so that in the future we can look out for hundreds of potential transatlantic QSO partner! Best 73 Geri, DK8KW (W1KW) From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26015 invoked from network); 18 May 2002 22:11:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 18 May 2002 22:11:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 9095 invoked from network); 18 May 2002 22:11:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 18 May 2002 22:11:15 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179CNR-0006fx-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 18 May 2002 23:08:37 +0100 Received: from smarthost1.mail.uk.easynet.net ([212.135.6.11]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179CNQ-0006fs-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 18 May 2002 23:08:36 +0100 Received: from tnt-3-133.easynet.co.uk ([195.40.202.133] helo=erica) by smarthost1.mail.uk.easynet.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 179CNM-000GC6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 18 May 2002 23:08:32 +0100 Message-ID: <000001c1feb9$dd63e1c0$85ca28c3@erica> From: "g3ldo" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <> Subject: LF: Re: bank inheritance Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 23:12:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Don't touch these financial scams from continental Africa with a bargepole or you will find yourself walking backwards very quickly. Regards, Peter, G3LDO e-mail Web From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25125 invoked from network); 18 May 2002 06:37:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 18 May 2002 06:37:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 21372 invoked from network); 18 May 2002 06:37:44 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 18 May 2002 06:37:44 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178xhL-0004wM-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 18 May 2002 07:28:11 +0100 Received: from 205-158-62-44.outblaze.com ([205.158.62.44] helo=mta1-3.us4.outblaze.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178xhK-0004wH-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 18 May 2002 07:28:10 +0100 Received: from ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com (205-158-62-53.outblaze.com [205.158.62.53]) by mta1-3.us4.outblaze.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/us4-srs) with SMTP id g4I6Rbof016056 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 06:27:37 GMT Received: (qmail 21041 invoked by uid 1001); 18 May 2002 06:27:36 -0000 Message-ID: <20020518062736.21040.qmail@mail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [200.38.33.125] by ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com with http for arise@legislator.com; Sat, 18 May 2002 01:27:36 -0500 From: "Wild Cats" To: rsexton@uceng.uc.edu, rseymour@onwis.com, rsfadm03@uconnvm.uconn.edu, rsf@ato.gov.au, rsfernan@aracruz.com.br, rsf@rpf.net, rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, rsgkent@rmplc.co.uk, rsgour@cyberden.com, rsg@pcnet.pcnet Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 01:27:36 -0500 Subject: LF: Call me 75345 X-Originating-IP: 200.38.33.125 X-Originating-Server: ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello I am your hot lil horny toy. 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TOLL-FREE: 1-877-451-TEEN (1-877-451-8336) For phone billing: 1-900-993-2582 -- _______________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13988 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 19:52:57 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 19:52:57 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 7765 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 19:52:43 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 19:52:43 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178njm-0003ff-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 20:50:02 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178njl-0003fD-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 20:50:01 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 14259 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 19:49:57 -0000 Received: from merimac.us.gases.boc.com (HELO merimac) (204.149.80.4) by server-11.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 19:49:57 -0000 Received: by EXC_WIL04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 17 May 2002 15:57:33 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Re: Re: [Lowfer] RE: litz wire Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 15:39:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Mal, >I have wound a loading coil using decca 729 strands litz and another 2.5mm >teflon insulated wire one and compared results. On air measurements and >reports are identical, regardless of what theory dictates. Am I going to have to send you a loading coil made from #12 copper and and another with identical dimentions from #12 Litz to prove to you there is a 2x reduction in Rac? Assume you have a way to make these measurements? Using on-air measurements as a way to measure a change less than 3db is not a sound approach, especially if the A/B change can't be accomplished by simply flipping a switch. This change in fact could be under 2db due to the additional series resistance in the circuit added by soil loss. Regards, Bill A _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1721 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 18:49:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 18:49:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 7693 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 18:49:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 18:49:31 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178mhc-0003WX-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 19:43:44 +0100 Received: from mta4-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.44]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178mha-0003WS-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 19:43:43 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.228.26]) by mta4-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020517184340.ZZHV29003.mta4-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 19:43:40 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c1fdd2$ea08f6a0$1ae4fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3CE4A077.13487.FF65012@localhost> Subject: LF: Re: Re: [Lowfer] RE: litz wire Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 19:44:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Rauch" To: ; Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 11:17 AM Subject: LF: Re: [Lowfer] RE: litz wire > > > > Hi Bill & Group, > > > > I believe why Litz wire has such a low AC resistance > > is because each strand is insulated and when soldered > > together you get the parallel resistance of each of > > the strand of insulated wire. With uninsulated, > > stranded wire you may have the same current carrying > > capacitiy but you more than likely have a higher > > resistance because all the strands are in contact with > > one another & the current path will be through all the > > contacts that offer the least resistance but better > > than solid wire because of the increase perimeter > > length. > > I'm a little surprised the measured conductor resistance a loop was > significantly reduced with Litz wire compared to solid wire with the > same size and same insulation. > > Litz wire *sometimes* offers higher Q in multilayer coils because it > reduces eddy currents in the wire as flux from adjacent turns cut the > cross section of the wire. > > I have an engineering text that goes into details about Litz wire. It > states that Litz wire reduces eddy currents when significant flux > cuts the cross-section of a wire. > > Of course eddy currents would be reduced at the expense of increased > unit resistance for a given physical conductor size, since some > current carrying conductor area is replaced with insulation. > > Litz wire can also increase dielectric losses, but any change in > dielectrics where the electric field between conductors is very > intense can do that. It depends on the insulation used in the non- > Litz wire, and the insulation used in the Litz wire. > > I believe the textbook description I have is correct, because I've > measured Q of hundreds of inductors and have sometimes found Litz > wire an improvement in ~ 50-500kHz systems using multilayer coils or > transformers (like switching supplies operating in the 100kHz range, > using transformers with large high-current conductors). > > On the other hand, I've *never* measured a case where it improved Q > or reduced losses in solenoid or single conductor applications at any > frequency. It has actually caused problems above 1MHz when used in > high current leads (that had to be flexed, so I thought Litz wire was > a good choice).73, Tom W8JI This is what I have been saying all along. Litz wire is not normally needed for most of the projects discussed on here recently. Good multi strand copper wire 1.5 - 6mm insulated in teflon is more convenient to use and under some circumstances for large single turn loops and single layer loading inductors is probably better. In fact large diameter hollow copper tube is probably to be preffered. Litz wire was used years ago for multi layer LW and MW coils where there could be an advantage. The Decca coils were multi layer inductors and met the requirements at the time, hardly state of the art by todays methods. I have wound a loading coil using decca 729 strands litz and another 2.5mm teflon insulated wire one and compared results. On air measurements and reports are identical, regardless of what theory dictates. The choice is yours. 73 de Mal/G3KEV > W8JI@contesting.com > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1838 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 16:36:39 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 16:36:39 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 26584 invoked by uid 10001); 17 May 2002 16:40:29 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 16:40:29 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178keX-0003Bs-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 17:32:25 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178keW-0003Bn-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 17:32:24 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 4046 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 16:32:22 -0000 Received: from merimac.us.gases.boc.com (HELO merimac) (204.149.80.4) by server-11.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 16:32:22 -0000 Received: by EXC_WIL04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 17 May 2002 12:39:59 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: litz again; maybe last Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 12:22:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Mal and other Litz users, >Nice to hear from you Bill and glad that you are still alive to tell the >tale! This could be the final Litz installment for me - for a while anyway. As I said yesterday I installed all 8 lugs on the four parallel #12 Litz wires. Last night I found the DC measurement on two of the wires was about twice reading on the other two. This was a concern because it could have meant some damage to these wires occured at the sharp bend of the cable over a tree limb 50ft up. I re-flowed the solder on the four lugs and low and behold the resistance of all fours wires measured equal! I'm pleased with the 0.40ohm AC resistance for the 50/50 loop (including .22ohms of soil loss). Not sure if it was worth some 15 hours of construction time build this cable, just to get out another db or so, but a flexible low loss cable was needed to allow a more thorough evaluation of soil loss (The Cu pipe is slightly lower in Rac but too ridged for these tests). I had to wrap electrical tape over the 4 wires, plus 4 spacer cords, to hold it all to a 200ft long 3/8" polyethylene tube. 500ft of tape was required! Bill A _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26420 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 15:13:08 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 15:13:08 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 9591 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 15:12:51 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 15:12:51 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178jFN-0002zB-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 16:02:21 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178jFM-0002z6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 16:02:20 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 11918 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 15:02:08 -0000 Received: from merimac.us.gases.boc.com (HELO merimac) (204.149.80.4) by server-3.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 15:02:08 -0000 Received: by EXC_WIL04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 17 May 2002 11:09:42 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Re: [Lowfer] RE: litz wire Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 10:51:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Tom, The theory of how Litz has an advantage over standard wire is well documented. A check of the Web will give one a good evening of reading. On the practical side I have conducted numerous loop experiments using solid vs Litz wire and find the AC resistance for Litz wire is ~1/2 the AC resistance for the same diameter solid copper. These experiments required subtracting the soil loss (0.22ohms at this location when dry) from the total loss in order to determine the actual conductor values. I believe one of the reasons for conflicting statements over various advantages (or lack there of) in using certain loop conductors is the lack of characterizing the soil loss. This requires a VERY careful study of the total loop Rac derived from the installation of a range of solid conductor sizes for which the skin effect, hence conductor Rac (without soil loss), is known. Bill A PS: I also find that a Litz loading coil has approximately the same 2x advantage over a coil using std copper wire of the same diameter. > Hi Bill & Group, > > I believe why Litz wire has such a low AC resistance > is because each strand is insulated and when soldered > together you get the parallel resistance of each of > the strand of insulated wire. With uninsulated, > stranded wire you may have the same current carrying > capacitiy but you more than likely have a higher > resistance because all the strands are in contact with > one another & the current path will be through all the > contacts that offer the least resistance but better > than solid wire because of the increase perimeter > length. I'm a little surprised the measured conductor resistance a loop was significantly reduced with Litz wire compared to solid wire with the same size and same insulation. Litz wire *sometimes* offers higher Q in multilayer coils because it reduces eddy currents in the wire as flux from adjacent turns cut the cross section of the wire. I have an engineering text that goes into details about Litz wire. It states that Litz wire reduces eddy currents when significant flux cuts the cross-section of a wire. Of course eddy currents would be reduced at the expense of increased unit resistance for a given physical conductor size, since some current carrying conductor area is replaced with insulation. Litz wire can also increase dielectric losses, but any change in dielectrics where the electric field between conductors is very intense can do that. It depends on the insulation used in the non- Litz wire, and the insulation used in the Litz wire. I believe the textbook description I have is correct, because I've measured Q of hundreds of inductors and have sometimes found Litz wire an improvement in ~ 50-500kHz systems using multilayer coils or transformers (like switching supplies operating in the 100kHz range, using transformers with large high-current conductors). On the other hand, I've *never* measured a case where it improved Q or reduced losses in solenoid or single conductor applications at any frequency. It has actually caused problems above 1MHz when used in high current leads (that had to be flexed, so I thought Litz wire was a good choice).73, Tom W8JI W8JI@contesting.com _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14530 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 12:16:07 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 12:16:07 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 14368 invoked by uid 10001); 17 May 2002 12:20:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 12:20:05 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178gbQ-0002c0-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 13:12:56 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178gbO-0002bv-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 13:12:55 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 178gbN-00060U-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 13:12:53 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 178gbL-0001cO-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 13:12:51 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020517112857.00ab3498@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 13:12:50 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: LF: Re: USA 136kHz proposals In-reply-to: <002501c1fd03$6ce28bc0$1ee8fc3e@l8p8y6> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020516141438.00a7dd28@gemini.herts.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Mal, LF Group, At 18:58 16/05/2002 +0100, you wrote: >I think Jim you have missed the point about the band plan. In EU as you say >we operate at the bottom end of the band 135.920 khz approx to avoid a >receive problem at the Canadian and USA end because of CFH, which hardly >effects us here in Europe, and therefore if they transmit on 137.6 khz >approx that avoids any problem. So what is your point!!!!! The point is - If , like in Europe, the vast majority of US stations operate in normal CW most of the time, most of the European band plan CW segment could be rendered unusable to those anywhere near CFH. They would have to use a different part of the band towards the band edges, used for QRSS in the European band plan. Likewise the "data" segment. >A lot of experience has already been gained over this past couple of years >transatlantic about how to conduct a LF QSO. So far there have been a grand total of 2 two way LF transatlantic QSOs - G3AQC and VA3LK stuck to the band plan on alternate days, but in the G3LDO/VE1ZJ/VE1ZZ QSO, VE1ZZ used a frequency around 136.5k for his own reasons. VA3LK used 137.79kHz, so 137.6kHz has not been tried for this purpose, and whether it would be any good remains to be seen. The "window" around 135.923 was moved there from a lower frequency after QRM from SXV. The objective of the window was to allow several transmitting stations with similar signals transmitting nearly continuous beacon signals to be monitored simultaneously by several receiving stations using specified settings on a particular piece of software (ie. ARGO in 30 or 60s dot mode), without usually attempting 2 way communications. This is not likely to be applicable to "normal" amateur operation with stations independently using different modes and speeds. Changing from 30s to 3s QRSS for example would require a new choice of frequency. Experience shows that success or failure often depends on carefully selecting an individual frequency that suits both ends - a fraction of a Hz often makes all the difference. There are a wide range of different modes available, and new and improved ones developing as a result of experience gained. On HF, band plans have evolved over several decades, and will have to continue to evolve as communications technology develops. Since we are still in the early days of amateur LF operation, and already it is proving very different to the experience with HF and above, trying to apply the exact same principles used on HF does not seem sensible to me. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11133 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 11:44:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 11:44:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 17452 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 11:43:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 11:43:59 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178g4n-0002Ve-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 12:39:13 +0100 Received: from mta7-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.47]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178g4m-0002VZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 12:39:12 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.228.171]) by mta7-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020517113902.ISPA8332.mta7-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 12:39:02 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c1fd97$9711cde0$abe4fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: LF: Re: RE: litz again Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 19:02:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashlock,William" To: Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 6:28 PM Subject: LF: RE: litz again > Mal, > > Yesterday I determined that my paint stripper actually did work to remove > the covering on the Decca 729 litz. It took a lot more applications and > brushings than I originally thought, but I was able to tin my eight loop > wires last night. It looks like the working ingredient IS Methylene > Dichlorine, as you suggest. The messages on the can are scary - like turning > off the electricity if the work has to be done inside the house, due to the > fumes being heavier than air and hanging at floor level ready to explode > with an electrical spark! Nice to hear from you Bill and glad that you are still alive to tell the tale !!!!!! > > Jim M: I'll give your idea a try on my next attempt. Thanks to all! > > Bill A > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered > through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit > http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21359 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 10:22:30 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 10:22:30 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 11063 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 10:22:19 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 10:22:19 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178eo5-0002L8-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 11:17:53 +0100 Received: from paris.akorn.net ([216.1.128.10]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178eo4-0002L3-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 11:17:52 +0100 Received: from w8ji (216-1-128-32.akorn.net [216.1.128.32]) by paris.akorn.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g4HAHmr14061; Fri, 17 May 2002 06:17:48 -0400 From: "Tom Rauch" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, lowfer@mailman.qth.net Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 06:17:27 -0400 Subject: LF: Re: [Lowfer] RE: litz wire Message-ID: <3CE4A077.13487.FF65012@localhost> In-reply-to: <20020514235019.73703.qmail@web13306.mail.yahoo.com> References: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit > Hi Bill & Group, > > I believe why Litz wire has such a low AC resistance > is because each strand is insulated and when soldered > together you get the parallel resistance of each of > the strand of insulated wire. With uninsulated, > stranded wire you may have the same current carrying > capacitiy but you more than likely have a higher > resistance because all the strands are in contact with > one another & the current path will be through all the > contacts that offer the least resistance but better > than solid wire because of the increase perimeter > length. I'm a little surprised the measured conductor resistance a loop was significantly reduced with Litz wire compared to solid wire with the same size and same insulation. Litz wire *sometimes* offers higher Q in multilayer coils because it reduces eddy currents in the wire as flux from adjacent turns cut the cross section of the wire. I have an engineering text that goes into details about Litz wire. It states that Litz wire reduces eddy currents when significant flux cuts the cross-section of a wire. Of course eddy currents would be reduced at the expense of increased unit resistance for a given physical conductor size, since some current carrying conductor area is replaced with insulation. Litz wire can also increase dielectric losses, but any change in dielectrics where the electric field between conductors is very intense can do that. It depends on the insulation used in the non- Litz wire, and the insulation used in the Litz wire. I believe the textbook description I have is correct, because I've measured Q of hundreds of inductors and have sometimes found Litz wire an improvement in ~ 50-500kHz systems using multilayer coils or transformers (like switching supplies operating in the 100kHz range, using transformers with large high-current conductors). On the other hand, I've *never* measured a case where it improved Q or reduced losses in solenoid or single conductor applications at any frequency. It has actually caused problems above 1MHz when used in high current leads (that had to be flexed, so I thought Litz wire was a good choice).73, Tom W8JI W8JI@contesting.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27514 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 09:14:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 09:14:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 397 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 09:14:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 09:14:25 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178dkj-0002Ai-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 10:10:21 +0100 Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.81]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178dki-0002Ad-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 10:10:20 +0100 Received: from host213-123-56-247.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.123.56.247] helo=dave) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 178dkg-0005Li-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 10:10:19 +0100 Message-ID: <001e01c1fd82$c6162380$f7387bd5@dave> From: "Dave Sergeant" To: "rsgb_lf_group" References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020516141438.00a7dd28@gemini.herts.ac.uk> Subject: LF: Re: Re: USA 136kHz proposals Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 10:05:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: M0BMU wrote: >On a similar note, it would seem premature to start rushing in to band >plans again But if Jim reads my posting again he will note that I made no reference whatsoever to bandplans, or any implication of them. I am also puzzled why he discussed this. I understand the German licence has a limit on bandwidth of 600Hz, a much more reasonable figure to ensure it is kept for narrow band modes only. 100Hz does seem an unnecessarily narrow requirement and would probably rule out some of the digital modes as well. This is clearly a matter for the USA amateurs to be concerned with, and now is the time for them to make any comments before it is cut and sealed in their licence. Assuming they don't write a bandplan within the licence (as they do on other bands) discussion of any voluntary bandplan is definitely for later discussion. 73s Dave G3YMC dsergeant@iee.org dsergeant@btinternet.com http://www.dsergeant.btinternet.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 171 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 08:27:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 08:27:00 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 8562 invoked by uid 10001); 17 May 2002 08:30:57 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 08:30:57 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178cy0-00021A-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 09:20:00 +0100 Received: from siaag2ac.compuserve.com ([149.174.40.133]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178cxz-000211-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 09:19:59 +0100 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by siaag2ac.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.12) id EAA06840 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 04:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 04:19:35 -0400 From: "Holger 'Geri' Kinzel, DK8KW" Subject: LF: USA 136kHz proposals To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: <200205170419_MC3-FE75-303A@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello LF-folks, especially across the Atlantic ocean, reading through the FCC NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULE MAKING of May, 2nd, I am surprised how thoroughly the FCC guys have investigated the matter of a LF allocation in the U.S. For instance in a footnote they mention the activity of a Dutch ham crew operating with antennas supported by a kite some years back, thus increasing the ERP of their station to values much higher than the 1 Watt ERP. Also I am surprised about the FCC's position in regards to the LowFer Part 15 activity. I know that several LowFers were trying to "hush hush" about their operations, because they feared they were making use of a gap in the regulations, and that FCC would close that gap if they got aware about what was going on (from the report: "Amateur radio operations in the 160-190 kHz band under the Part 15 rules will not be affected. Under these rules, amateur operations must meet certain power and antenna length requirements, but they also are allowed to build and operate some equipment of their own design"). So it is obvious that they consider this Part 15 operation of low power LF operation (LowFer) not only as legal, but they support it in this proposal as a desirable way of experimenting. What I am little bit concerned about is the restriction to 1 W EIRP (not ERP, so a further 2.15 dB below ERP), especially with the proposed output power limitation of only 100 W PEP. I think it is fair to say that even a well constructed typical amateur radio antenna on LF has a "gain" of maximum minus 30 dB, resulting in radiated powers of less than 100 mW when using a 100 W transmitter. Maybe in replies to the FCC (" We seek comment on whether these limits on EIRP and PEP are appropriate.") these European experiences should be mentioned (an excellent website collecting a lot of antenna experience is maintained by Rik, ON7YD, http://www.qsl.net/on7yd/136ant.htm). This should be made known to FCC. As a holder of a US license I plan to reply to the proposal, although I do not plan to operate LF during my frequent stays in the U.S. (haven't really found the appropriate portable LF station for hotel operation yet ...). I am not really sure at the moment about who may comment (maybe someone can find out), but probably also comments from the European ham community would help our U.S. friends a little bit here. Regarding bandwidth: Germany has a limitation to 800 Hz bandwidth on LF (and 100 Hz on the 8.9 to 9 kHz band ... ;-). This bandwidth allowed Markus, DF6NM and myself, for instance, the use of Slow-Voice mode (reducing the speed of the voice transmission by the factor 8, thus reducing the bandwidth from the normal 3 kHz down to 375 Hz). 100 Hz would still allow most other non-CW modes to be used (PSK31, Hell, probably a narrow-shift type of RTTY). Best regards Geri, DK8KW (W1KW) From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22239 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 00:08:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 00:08:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 29301 invoked by uid 10001); 17 May 2002 00:12:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2002 00:12:01 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178VFG-000181-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 01:05:18 +0100 Received: from post.omnieng.co.uk ([193.82.59.20]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178VFF-00017w-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 01:05:17 +0100 Received: from neptune.imagenisp.com ([204.244.138.19]) by post.omnieng.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 178VEU-0007Je-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 01:04:31 +0100 Received: from jsm (DEFAULT [204.244.18.81]) by neptune.imagenisp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id KRNDZ643; Thu, 16 May 2002 17:08:23 -0700 Message-ID: <000301c1fd35$84451b20$9a4bfea9@jsm> From: "Steve McDonald" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <001201c1fd06$b5340180$464001d5@main> Subject: LF: 3C85 Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 16:58:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Is there a North American equivalent for the ubiquitous 3C85 core material (for us folks here in the colonies?) Thanks! Steve / VE7SL From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6627 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 18:54:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 18:54:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 25985 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 18:54:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 18:54:02 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178QLl-0000QA-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 19:51:41 +0100 Received: from mta3.snet.net ([204.60.203.69]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178QLk-0000Q5-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 19:51:40 +0100 Received: from cianciolo (97.79.252.64.snet.net [64.252.79.97]) by mta3.snet.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/SNET-smtp-1.2/D-1.1.1.1/O-1.1.1.1) with SMTP id g4GInNI5028769 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 14:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000601c1fd0b$35df9fc0$6e01a8c0@cianciolo> From: "PC" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <001201c1fd06$b5340180$464001d5@main> Subject: LF: Re: USA on 136 and Prop reports Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 14:55:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Alan, I am sorry to hear that you had a hardware problem, but when I saw your description of the wallet opening process, I laughed heartily for a good couple of minutes. Just what I needed to brighten up a otherwise gloomy day. Please keep us abreast of the situation should anything break " I did not immediately realise by my modem was faulty, so no access to the net until I had used the laser cutting torch to free the titanium bands on my wallet and given the moths a test-flight. The new hardware is now installed" PaulC W1VLF From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26266 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 18:26:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 18:26:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 21699 invoked by uid 10001); 16 May 2002 18:30:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 18:30:08 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178Pua-0000LW-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 19:23:36 +0100 Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.81]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178Pua-0000LR-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 19:23:36 +0100 Received: from host213-122-215-13.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.215.13] helo=main) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 178PuU-0000no-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 19:23:30 +0100 Message-ID: <001201c1fd06$b5340180$464001d5@main> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: USA on 136 and Prop reports Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 18:05:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All, First apologies to those who have been looking for it......the Propagation Report has been 'frozen' for the past week due to a hardware failure at my location. I did not immediately realise by my modem was faulty, so no access to the net until I had used the laser cutting torch to free the titanium bands on my wallet and given the moths a test-flight. The new hardware is now installed and I have mounted last night's plots, but it will be a little longer before I have downloaded the NOAA Graphs and had time to catch up with studying the current solar conditions. It is great to see that we will soon have some activity from the US, and maybe the plots will be more useful then. One thought on frequencies, is that please do not try to impose even a 'gentleman's agreement' in terms of what is the status in the UK. We may have to assign nights, or periods for stations further east who cannot hear anything on the HF side of 137kHz due to the QRM from DCF39. They may need to transmit in the 137.7 area so that they can receive in the 135.8 area. This was not an option until SXV ceased its regular transmissions at the bottom of the band. We have a window for them that may not stay open for ever. I suggest we discuss possibilities which need to deviate from the previous suggestion on this reflector, and agree solutions to suit conditions. Bear in mind contacts will be very much more difficult from further east, as the main path will probably tend to be a three hop path. I believe from the signal strengths we have received from CFH that the UK is blessed with the centre of the two hop path. Signals received further east, even in Belgium, are very much weaker than I hear. The night time period is becomming very short now as we approach the summer solstice, and often the best signals are to be heard at this location at about 0400 to 0500z. If anyone would like a zip of the CFH and DCF plots (or even the raw data), I will try to oblige. I am in the process of trying to get them all archived (for posterity ??) on the CD Rom. Between Brian and myself we must have over 500 plots now. The propagation report would not be possible without the daily forward of DCF and CFH plots from Brian CT1DRP. Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15511 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 18:01:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 18:01:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 12967 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 18:00:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 18:00:57 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178PWD-0000Dg-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 18:58:25 +0100 Received: from mta7-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.47]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178PWC-0000Db-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 18:58:24 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.228.169]) by mta7-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020516175820.SWPM8332.mta7-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 18:58:20 +0100 Message-ID: <002401c1fd03$6a3b87a0$1ee8fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: Re: LF: USA 136kHz proposals Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 18:39:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 4:35 PM Subject: Re: LF: USA 136kHz proposals > In a message dated 5/16/02 6:33:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > dsergeant@connectfree.co.uk writes: > > << I am puzzled why they are putting this > stipulation on bandwidth, which I do not believe anybody else has done. >> > > You've heard of the philosophy some folks have over here? The one about: > "the business of government is business." > > One of the reasons cited in the FCC Notice of Proposed Rulemaking is an > objection filed by Texas Instruments, who make "smart card" readers that work > at 121 kHz. They're afraid hams are going to operate with such huge power > and with such dirty signals that we would interfere with their lucrative (and > totally unallocated) use of the LF spectrum. > > I don't know many hams who are going to try to operate LF from their > high-rise apartments or right next to department stores, secret research > facilities, or major office buildings, so I'm not sure who would be affected > by amateur operation 15 bloomin' kilohertz away at 1W EIRP! But that's their > argument. John, You would be surprised what some radio amateurs do, here in the UK they do operate from high rise apartment blocks, terraced houses and semi detached on the LF bands. In other parts of EU they probably do the same and maybe the USA. > > 73, > John KD4IDY > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15335 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 18:01:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 18:01:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 12896 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 18:00:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 18:00:51 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178PWG-0000Dn-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 18:58:28 +0100 Received: from mta7-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.47]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178PWF-0000Di-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 18:58:27 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.228.169]) by mta7-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020516175825.SWRG8332.mta7-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 18:58:25 +0100 Message-ID: <002501c1fd03$6ce28bc0$1ee8fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020516141438.00a7dd28@gemini.herts.ac.uk> Subject: LF: Re: Re: USA 136kHz proposals Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 18:58:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Moritz" To: Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 4:24 PM Subject: LF: Re: USA 136kHz proposals > Dear Dave, LF Group > > At 11:28 16/05/2002 +0100, you wrote: > >I see from yesterday's ARRL Letter that the proposal for the USA 136 band > >is for 1W > >ERP and bandwidth less than 100Hz. I am puzzled why they are putting this > >stipulation on bandwidth, > > I suppose it makes sense - otherwise someone could decide to monopolise the > entire band sending SSTV or something. > > > It could be a > >disincentive for normal CW operation (although hopefully most CW will be > >in this > >bandwidth), and presumably will be difficult to enforce. > > It's very easy to measure the bandwidth of signals with spectrogram > software, or a spectrum analyser. Some people would be surprised to see > what their signals look like! How difficult it would be to maintain that > bandwidth depends on the complete specification - how many dB down at 100Hz > BW? If it is 20dB down, no problem, but if it is 60dB down, difficult in > any mode - the mains hum sidebands are usually more than that. > > On a similar note, it would seem premature to start rushing in to band > plans again - remember that the original reason for having the > "transatlantic" signals at the bottom of the band was to avoid CFH on > 137.0kHz in the middle of the band - It is still there, and in the > north-east US states this will certainly have a very direct influence on > operating frequencies for all modes, which could well end up rather > different to those in Europe. Arbitrarily imposing a band plan at this > stage would be less than helpful, and it would be better to wait until US > amateurs have a chance to gain operating experience on the band. I think Jim you have missed the point about the band plan. In EU as you say we operate at the bottom end of the band 135.920 khz approx to avoid a receive problem at the Canadian and USA end because of CFH, which hardly effects us here in Europe, and therefore if they transmit on 137.6 khz approx that avoids any problem. So what is your point!!!!! A lot of experience has already been gained over this past couple of years transatlantic about how to conduct a LF QSO. We need a plan for QRS as I suggested before and above and normal CW operations. These will be the most popular modes and have worked well so far. Other modes FSK/BPSK/JASON etc that take up more b/width will have to be kept separate to avoid qrm and frequency swamping. This is normal procedure for HF dxing ie split frequency working to avoid blocking the dx frequency and mode separation designated frequency areas G3KEV G3KEV > > Cheers, Jim Moritz > 73 de M0BMU > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21351 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 17:52:39 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 17:52:39 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 7503 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 17:52:30 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 17:52:30 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178PJl-0000BC-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 18:45:33 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178PJk-0000B7-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 18:45:32 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 8536 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 17:38:41 -0000 Received: from merimac.us.gases.boc.com (HELO merimac) (204.149.80.4) by server-2.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 16 May 2002 17:38:41 -0000 Received: by EXC_WIL04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:46:17 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: litz again Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 13:28:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Mal, Yesterday I determined that my paint stripper actually did work to remove the covering on the Decca 729 litz. It took a lot more applications and brushings than I originally thought, but I was able to tin my eight loop wires last night. It looks like the working ingredient IS Methylene Dichlorine, as you suggest. The messages on the can are scary - like turning off the electricity if the work has to be done inside the house, due to the fumes being heavier than air and hanging at floor level ready to explode with an electrical spark! Jim M: I'll give your idea a try on my next attempt. Thanks to all! Bill A _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27186 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 17:37:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 17:37:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 15958 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 17:37:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 17:37:18 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178P5i-00008f-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 18:31:02 +0100 Received: from mta6-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.46]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178P5h-00008a-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 18:31:01 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.232.30]) by mta6-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020516173059.OFCL20413.mta6-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 18:30:59 +0100 Message-ID: <001301c1fcff$97c95a20$1ee8fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020516112715.00ab89f8@gemini.herts.ac.uk> Subject: Re: LF: RE: RE: litz wire Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 18:31:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Moritz" To: Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 11:33 AM Subject: Re: LF: RE: RE: litz wire > At 04:54 16/05/2002 -0400, you wrote: > >Presumably Aluminium foil would work just as well, provided you don't get > >it so hot it catches fire? > >John, G4CNN > Melting and burning the aluminium foil is certainly a problem - the copper > foil seems to withstand any amount of heating with the blowtorch, and the > same piece can be used several times. There is a problem with this method, the heat required to burn off the enamel makes the copper strands very brittle and some strands will drop off so you will not be able to solder all the 729 strands together properly to make a good joint. (Mc Ilroy and Wilson, 1935 litz handling procedures) If you are happy with say 600 strands soldered continue but 2.5 mm multi strand insulated could be a better choice and less effort. Try 10 mm multi strand insulated if your mast or trees will stand the strain, at least you know they are all soldered!!!!! With Litz you must use a procedure that ensures all strands are bonded and soldered together and the procedure that I described earlier ensures this using the chemical desolve method. 73 de Mal/G3KEV > > Cheers, Jim Moritz > 73 de M0BMU > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20425 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 15:39:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 15:39:51 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 23547 invoked by uid 10001); 16 May 2002 15:43:14 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 15:43:14 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178NIT-0008PT-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:36:05 +0100 Received: from imo-r02.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.98]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178NIS-0008PL-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:36:04 +0100 Received: from WarmSpgs@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.cd.179dbdb6 (4238) for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:35:29 -0400 (EDT) From: WarmSpgs@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 11:35:29 EDT Subject: Re: LF: USA 136kHz proposals To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: In a message dated 5/16/02 6:33:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dsergeant@connectfree.co.uk writes: << I am puzzled why they are putting this stipulation on bandwidth, which I do not believe anybody else has done. >> You've heard of the philosophy some folks have over here? The one about: "the business of government is business." One of the reasons cited in the FCC Notice of Proposed Rulemaking is an objection filed by Texas Instruments, who make "smart card" readers that work at 121 kHz. They're afraid hams are going to operate with such huge power and with such dirty signals that we would interfere with their lucrative (and totally unallocated) use of the LF spectrum. I don't know many hams who are going to try to operate LF from their high-rise apartments or right next to department stores, secret research facilities, or major office buildings, so I'm not sure who would be affected by amateur operation 15 bloomin' kilohertz away at 1W EIRP! But that's their argument. 73, John KD4IDY From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1999 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 15:32:50 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 15:32:50 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 20415 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 15:32:35 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 15:32:35 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178N8W-0008NO-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:25:48 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178N8V-0008NJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:25:47 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 178N8U-0005RP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:25:46 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 178N8T-0000Mh-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:25:45 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020516141438.00a7dd28@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 16:24:51 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: LF: Re: USA 136kHz proposals In-reply-to: <001301c1fcc4$b6c8ff60$3d1e073e@dave> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Dave, LF Group At 11:28 16/05/2002 +0100, you wrote: >I see from yesterday's ARRL Letter that the proposal for the USA 136 band >is for 1W >ERP and bandwidth less than 100Hz. I am puzzled why they are putting this >stipulation on bandwidth, I suppose it makes sense - otherwise someone could decide to monopolise the entire band sending SSTV or something. > It could be a >disincentive for normal CW operation (although hopefully most CW will be >in this >bandwidth), and presumably will be difficult to enforce. It's very easy to measure the bandwidth of signals with spectrogram software, or a spectrum analyser. Some people would be surprised to see what their signals look like! How difficult it would be to maintain that bandwidth depends on the complete specification - how many dB down at 100Hz BW? If it is 20dB down, no problem, but if it is 60dB down, difficult in any mode - the mains hum sidebands are usually more than that. On a similar note, it would seem premature to start rushing in to band plans again - remember that the original reason for having the "transatlantic" signals at the bottom of the band was to avoid CFH on 137.0kHz in the middle of the band - It is still there, and in the north-east US states this will certainly have a very direct influence on operating frequencies for all modes, which could well end up rather different to those in Europe. Arbitrarily imposing a band plan at this stage would be less than helpful, and it would be better to wait until US amateurs have a chance to gain operating experience on the band. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13735 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 12:42:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 12:42:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 9606 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 12:42:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 12:42:40 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178KXO-00081A-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:39:18 +0100 Received: from mta3-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.43]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178KXN-000815-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:39:17 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.208.186]) by mta3-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020516123912.YPNY24398.mta3-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:39:12 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c1fcd6$d477b3a0$bad0fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: litz again Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 20:42:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
The method that I previously described to remove the enamal from litz wire using Methylene Dichlorine found in paint stripper works every time for me on the heavy Decca 729 strand litz wire.
With care every strand can be cleaned, then soldered using the normal multicore fluxed solder.
So far no failures, no fires.
I have heard from a number of others using this method and all seem more than satisfied and the best method having tried all other alternatives.
Maybe a chemist in our midst could suggest a better method using strong acid or alkaline solutions without disolving the cable ends.
Beware of dangerous fumes.
 
73 de Mal/G3KEV
 
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27344 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 11:36:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 11:36:55 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 699 invoked by uid 10001); 16 May 2002 11:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 11:40:53 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178JWT-0007s7-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:34:17 +0100 Received: from nat6.excitenetwork.com ([63.236.75.8] helo=xmxpita.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178JWQ-0007rz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:34:15 +0100 Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id 5A811B6F8; Thu, 16 May 2002 07:33:40 -0400 (EDT) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: 73k mystery signal Received: from [62.253.64.8] by xprdmailfe18.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; Thu, 16 May 2002 07:33:40 EST From: "john sexton" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: computernetworks@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20020516113340.5A811B6F8@xmxpita.excite.com> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 07:33:40 -0400 (EDT) Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Jim,
Right now (11.31 utc), 73.315 is clear but will continue to monitor.
73 John, G4CNN

--- On Thu 05/16, James Moritz wrote:
> Dear LF Group,
>
> The 73.25kHz Rugby signal has been on intermittently lately, and
> sometimes when it is off I have been hearing a strange bleeping and
> warbling signal, centered on about 73.315kHz. The attachment shows a
> couple
> of minutes worth of spectrogram - the frequency span is about 1kHz, and
> the
> signal occupies about 600Hz. The blips on the "carrier"
> frequency are
> actually shifting up and down in frequency by a few Hz, and seem to have
> some sort of modulation applied, although this is hard to see in this
> screen shot.
>
> The signal is about 20 - 30dB over the noise here - Can anyone else hear
> it, or is it some strange form of local QRM? Could it be a communications
>
> mode, or some sort of beacon? Would be interested if anyone has any
> ideas.
>
> Cheers, Jim Moritz
> 73 de M0BMU<73k315.jpg 36.60 KB>

Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
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From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6257 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 11:29:58 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 11:29:58 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 17301 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 11:29:43 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 11:29:43 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178JJ9-0007pZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:20:31 +0100 Received: from mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.50]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178JJ8-0007p2-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:20:30 +0100 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.12.1/8.12.1) with SMTP id g4GBJwV7019456 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:19:58 +0200 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20020516121421.3bb72542@pb623250.kuleuven.be> X-Sender: pb623250@pb623250.kuleuven.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 12:14:21 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: Re: LF: RE: RE: litz wire In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020516112715.00ab89f8@gemini.herts.ac.uk> References: <20020516085437.8C2133D0D@xmxpita.excite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >Melting and burning the aluminium foil is certainly a problem - the copper >foil seems to withstand any amount of heating with the blowtorch, and the >same piece can be used several times. I tried to remove the copper sheet from a PCB for other purposes. Sometimes it just goes fine, sometimes it breaks off in bits and pieces ... Wouldn't it be easier to take a piece of solid copper wire (2 or 3mm diameter). This kind of wire is sold at any do-it-yourself shop. Strip off the isolation and twist the copper wire as a kind of coil arround the litz. 73, Rik ON7YD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2377 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 11:03:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 11:03:29 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 7427 invoked by uid 10001); 16 May 2002 11:07:26 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 11:07:26 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178Ivk-0007k4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:56:20 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178Ivi-0007jz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:56:19 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 178Ivh-0003gp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:56:17 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 178Ivf-00068U-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:56:16 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020516113901.00ab5e98@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 11:56:14 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: LF: 73k mystery signal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------060108070607070709020402" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060108070607070709020402 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear LF Group, The 73.25kHz Rugby signal has been on intermittently lately, and sometimes when it is off I have been hearing a strange bleeping and warbling signal, centered on about 73.315kHz. The attachment shows a couple of minutes worth of spectrogram - the frequency span is about 1kHz, and the signal occupies about 600Hz. The blips on the "carrier" frequency are actually shifting up and down in frequency by a few Hz, and seem to have some sort of modulation applied, although this is hard to see in this screen shot. The signal is about 20 - 30dB over the noise here - Can anyone else hear it, or is it some strange form of local QRM? Could it be a communications mode, or some sort of beacon? Would be interested if anyone has any ideas. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU --------------060108070607070709020402 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="73k315.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="73k315.jpg" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAgGBgcGBQgHBwcJCQgKDBQNDAsLDBkSEw8UHRof Hh0aHBwgJC4nICIsIxwcKDcpLDAxNDQ0Hyc5PTgyPC4zNDL/2wBDAQkJCQwLDBgNDRgyIRwh MjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjL/wAAR CAKsAWoDASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAGwABAAIDAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEFAgMEBgf/xABdEAABAwMC AwQFBQsHBwgIBwABAAIDBAUREiETMUEGFFFhIzJxgZEHFiKhsRUzUlaCkpXB0dLUQlNVcpPT 8BckVGKUoqQ0Q0RjZXTC4SU1hKOyw+LxRWRzdYOFs//EABgBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAB AgME/8QALREBAAMAAQMDAwMEAwEBAAAAAAECESEDEjFBUWETIpEEodEyUnGBFELw4ZL/2gAM AwEAAhEDEQA/APgSIi9AIiICIiAiIgIiICIiAiIghWttoRW2+6T8bhdxpBORjPFzNFHp5jGO Jq6+r57VWFaW23Ctt91qONw+5UonxpzxMzRR6eYxjiauvqrOCtPrHJyc81Clww4gdD4qFoER EBERAREQEREBERAREQEREBERAREQEREBERBaW2hFbb7pPxuF3GkE5GM8XM0UenmMY4mrr6vn 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gvD6mmdQNraxrGPjinhqZIREMh5IpQZdeTGAT9ENLs7lgXjVbUlfLT2iroNEb6eodFIQ5u7Z G5DXgjByBJI3fIw87ZAIwPSXGz2urts1wt/conUcD5nuoI6jukoEkEYaHVH0+IOM4u5twIxg lxXhnDDiD0PUK9ufaOsu9FTUtSyHVC+SoknYHB9RJIxgc+TfSXYjaMgAncuJcS40bxh7h4FB CIi2CIiD/9k= --------------060108070607070709020402-- From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20929 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 10:36:49 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 10:36:49 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 266 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 10:36:40 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 10:36:40 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178IaN-0007fD-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:34:15 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178IaM-0007f8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:34:14 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 178IaB-0002xI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:34:03 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 178IZl-0005Ba-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:33:37 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020516112715.00ab89f8@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 11:33:35 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: RE: RE: litz wire In-reply-to: <20020516085437.8C2133D0D@xmxpita.excite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 04:54 16/05/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Presumably Aluminium foil would work just as well, provided you don't get >it so hot it catches fire? >John, G4CNN Melting and burning the aluminium foil is certainly a problem - the copper foil seems to withstand any amount of heating with the blowtorch, and the same piece can be used several times. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14578 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 10:33:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 10:33:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 15015 invoked by uid 10001); 16 May 2002 10:37:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 10:37:12 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178IWg-0007eE-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:30:26 +0100 Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.111]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178IWf-0007e9-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:30:25 +0100 Received: from host62-7-30-61.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.7.30.61] helo=dave) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 178IW8-0001Uu-00; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:29:53 +0100 Message-ID: <001301c1fcc4$b6c8ff60$3d1e073e@dave> From: "Dave Sergeant" To: "rsgb_lf_group" Subject: LF: USA 136kHz proposals Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 11:28:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I see from yesterday's ARRL Letter that the proposal for the USA 136 band is for 1W ERP and bandwidth less than 100Hz. I am puzzled why they are putting this stipulation on bandwidth, which I do not believe anybody else has done. It could be a disincentive for normal CW operation (although hopefully most CW will be in this bandwidth), and presumably will be difficult to enforce. 73s Dave G3YMC dsergeant@iee.org dsergeant@btinternet.com http://www.dsergeant.btinternet.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10326 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 09:12:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 09:12:57 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 6087 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 09:12:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 09:12:52 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178HAx-0007Rh-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 10:03:55 +0100 Received: from nat1.excitenetwork.com ([63.236.75.3] helo=xmxpita.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178HAw-0007Rb-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 10:03:54 +0100 Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id 3A4DC3D0D; Thu, 16 May 2002 05:03:22 -0400 (EDT) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Litz wire Received: from [62.253.64.8] by xprdmailfe4.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; Thu, 16 May 2002 05:03:22 EST From: "john sexton" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: computernetworks@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20020516090322.3A4DC3D0D@xmxpita.excite.com> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 05:03:22 -0400 (EDT) Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All,
Ed has pointed out one mistake in my translation:
the lines that read:

- unwind the braids (in Russian Litz usually 5 - 7 - …)
- carefully unwind the strands making up each braid,

should have read:

- unwind the braids (in Russian Litz usually 5 - 7 - …)
- carefully wind the strands making up each braid,

My apologies to Ed for this inadvertent error.

John, G4CNN

--- On Wed 05/15, Ed Lesnichy wrote:
> Hello john,
>
> Обнаружил существенную неточность:
>
> - unwind the braids (in Russian Litz usually 5 - 7 - …) - правильно
> - carefully unwind the strands making up each braid, - не правильно
> ^^^^^^
> аккуратно СПЛЕСТИ (wind???) strands в косе (braids) иначе проводки
> могут сгореть!!
>
> UNWIND - расплести ?
> WIND - сплести ?
>
> 73! Ed RU6LA mailto:ed@dx.ru
>
>
>

Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web! From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1677 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 09:06:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 09:06:40 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 29539 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 09:06:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2002 09:06:24 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178H2V-0007Op-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 09:55:11 +0100 Received: from nat1.excitenetwork.com ([63.236.75.3] helo=xmxpita.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178H2T-0007Ok-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 09:55:10 +0100 Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id 8C2133D0D; Thu, 16 May 2002 04:54:37 -0400 (EDT) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: RE: litz wire Received: from [62.253.64.8] by xprdmailfe4.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; Thu, 16 May 2002 04:54:37 EST From: "john sexton" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: computernetworks@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20020516085437.8C2133D0D@xmxpita.excite.com> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 04:54:37 -0400 (EDT) Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Presumably Aluminium foil would work just as well, provided you don't get it so hot it catches fire?
John, G4CNN

--- On Wed 05/15, Ashlock,William wrote:
> Jim,
>
> Your posting is like a breath of fresh air! (literally - after trying to
> use
> aspirin on the wire and becoming all but overcome with the fumes!). What
> you
> describe below, particularly the "impervious
> to any chemicals", matches my experiences to a 'T'. I'm sure we have
> the
> same Decca Litz wire.
>
> I'll check out your method tonight and report back tomorrow.
>
> Many thanks!
>
> Bill A
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Moritz [mailto:j.r.moritz@herts.ac.uk]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 9:54 AM
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> Subject: LF: RE: litz wire
>
>
> Dear Bill, LF Group,
>
> I have a considerable amount of Litz wire recovered from a scrap Decca
> loading coil - as has been said, there is more than one type of enamel
> used. The newer type (usually orange, red or pink) is self-fluxing, which
>
> is easy, but the type I have is a dark brown enamel that seems impervious
>
> to any chemicals I have tried, including Nitromors and other types of
> paint
> stripper. The alcohol burner method removes it well, but with 729 strands
>
> it is not really practical to burn the insulation off all the strands
> without causing a raging inferno! Similarly, the asprin method works to a
>
> degree, but it only cleans some of the strands with thick litz wire, the
> residue makes it difficult to repeat the process to clean the remaining
> strands, and the smoke generated is horrendous!
>
> The method I have used is to burn the insulation off with a blowtorch -
> but
> to do this without burning away a lot of the strands some care is needed.
>
> First, strip about 70 - 100mm of the plastic sheathing, and un-twist the
> end 25mm so that the strands are like a small paint brush. Then, tightly
> wrap this end in a strip of copper foil, such as might be peeled off a
> PCB.
> Wrap the strands next to the plastic sheathing in another piece of foil,
> and clamp in a metal clamp or vice - this acts as a heatsink to stop the
> sheathing melting. Then heat the foil-wrapped end with a blowtorch, taking
>
> care to apply the flame only to the foil, not the strands. The foil gets
> red hot, and the enamel burns off with an oily flame. After it has cooled,
>
> unwrap the foil - it looks like the enamel has just turned black, but the
>
> residue can be removed fairly easily by dipping it in water and brushing
> gently with a toothbrush, or rubbing the strands together like cleaning a
>
> paintbrush, to leave clean copper. Then it can be tinned in the normal
> way.
>
> I can't say it is an easy method, but it does work with otherwise
> indestructible enamel, and after a few practice runs it gave me
> satisfactory results for my loading coil.
>
> Cheers, Jim Moritz
> 73 de M0BMU
>
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered
> through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information
> visit
> http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/
>
>

Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web! From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11293 invoked from network); 15 May 2002 16:18:54 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2002 16:18:54 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 4489 invoked by uid 10001); 15 May 2002 16:22:52 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2002 16:22:52 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1781Qt-0004fI-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 17:15:19 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1781Qs-0004fB-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 17:15:18 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 26562 invoked from network); 15 May 2002 16:15:12 -0000 Received: from merimac.us.gases.boc.com (HELO merimac) (204.149.80.4) by server-8.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 15 May 2002 16:15:12 -0000 Received: by EXC_WIL04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 15 May 2002 12:22:47 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: RE: litz wire Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 12:04:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Jim, Your posting is like a breath of fresh air! (literally - after trying to use aspirin on the wire and becoming all but overcome with the fumes!). What you describe below, particularly the "impervious to any chemicals", matches my experiences to a 'T'. I'm sure we have the same Decca Litz wire. I'll check out your method tonight and report back tomorrow. Many thanks! Bill A -----Original Message----- From: James Moritz [mailto:j.r.moritz@herts.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 9:54 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: litz wire Dear Bill, LF Group, I have a considerable amount of Litz wire recovered from a scrap Decca loading coil - as has been said, there is more than one type of enamel used. The newer type (usually orange, red or pink) is self-fluxing, which is easy, but the type I have is a dark brown enamel that seems impervious to any chemicals I have tried, including Nitromors and other types of paint stripper. The alcohol burner method removes it well, but with 729 strands it is not really practical to burn the insulation off all the strands without causing a raging inferno! Similarly, the asprin method works to a degree, but it only cleans some of the strands with thick litz wire, the residue makes it difficult to repeat the process to clean the remaining strands, and the smoke generated is horrendous! The method I have used is to burn the insulation off with a blowtorch - but to do this without burning away a lot of the strands some care is needed. First, strip about 70 - 100mm of the plastic sheathing, and un-twist the end 25mm so that the strands are like a small paint brush. Then, tightly wrap this end in a strip of copper foil, such as might be peeled off a PCB. Wrap the strands next to the plastic sheathing in another piece of foil, and clamp in a metal clamp or vice - this acts as a heatsink to stop the sheathing melting. Then heat the foil-wrapped end with a blowtorch, taking care to apply the flame only to the foil, not the strands. The foil gets red hot, and the enamel burns off with an oily flame. After it has cooled, unwrap the foil - it looks like the enamel has just turned black, but the residue can be removed fairly easily by dipping it in water and brushing gently with a toothbrush, or rubbing the strands together like cleaning a paintbrush, to leave clean copper. Then it can be tinned in the normal way. I can't say it is an easy method, but it does work with otherwise indestructible enamel, and after a few practice runs it gave me satisfactory results for my loading coil. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29997 invoked from network); 15 May 2002 15:06:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2002 15:06:20 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 27488 invoked from network); 15 May 2002 15:06:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2002 15:06:08 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1780G5-0004Oc-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 16:00:05 +0100 Received: from nat5.excitenetwork.com ([63.236.75.7] helo=xmxpita.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1780G3-0004OA-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 16:00:03 +0100 Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id 3D8823E6C; Wed, 15 May 2002 10:59:30 -0400 (EDT) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: litz wire. Fwd from Ed, RU6LA. Received: from [62.253.64.8] by xprdmailfe8.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; Wed, 15 May 2002 10:59:30 EST From: "john sexton" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: computernetworks@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20020515145930.3D8823E6C@xmxpita.excite.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:59:30 -0400 (EDT) Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Translated at the request of Ed, RU6LA.

Hello LF Group!
Litz wire consists of many fine insulated strands of wire. These strands are platted into braids, each braid consisting of from 9 - 35 strands. These braids in turn are platted to form Litz wire.

Earlier I used similar methods to those proposed by Rik and Mal. But now I use a method which appears to me to be more effective and quicker and most importantly without so unpleasant a smell, hi!

It consists of the following:
- remove any synthetic or silk covering from about 3cm at the end of the Litz,
- unwind the braids (in Russian Litz usually 5 - 7 - …),
- carefully unwind the strands making up each braid,
- fill a small metal or glass vessel of about 10 - 20 ml with spirit,
- light a small spirit lamp (or liquid spirit or use solid spirit tablets),
- hold the last 1- 3 mm of each braid in the flame of the spirit lamp,
- burn off the lacquer from the strands (in Russian Litz, this is usually an unstable natural lacquer) for a length of 1 - 2 cm. Further heating causes the strands to glow a light red colour. Don't do this for more than a few seconds.
-Immediately douse the end of the braid in the spirit vessel. The wire takes on a nice red colour of finished copper for a length of 1 - 1.5cm.
The main thing is that it is immediately possible to tin it using simple rosin and very easy to achieve.
Sometimes the spirit in the vessel can catch fire - just cover the vessel with something and the flame will go out.
- repeat the above for each braid of the Litz.

In place of spirit you can use the gas flame of a kitchen stove.
My wife likes this method a lot (especially when it is necessary to tin a lot Litz) she even lets me bring the soldering iron into the kitchen.
- while I am busy with this we can talk over our problems, hi! As as result of my hobby this doesn't happen very often …. hi!

You can practice tinning by this method on bits of Litz, but I think that after 2 -3 attempts you will already be good at it

73! Ed RU6LA mailto:ed@dx.ru

--- On Wed 05/15, Ed Lesnichy wrote:
> Hello john!
>
> Просьба перевести для LF Group еще один метод лужения литцендрата
> (Litz wire). Как мне кажется он и другим больше понравится
> Правда я не знаю точно как называются в англ "косы" - видимо
> strand.
> Litz соcтоит из множества тонких проволочек. Эти проволочки сплетаются
> в эти самые "косы" по 9-35 шт. А далее уже эти
> "косы" сплетаются в
> жгут Litz wire.
> -------------------------------------------------
> Hello LF Group!
>
> Раньше я применял похожие методы как предлагали Rick и Mal. Но сейчас
> применяю, как мне кажется, более эффективный и быстрый, а главное не
> так неприятно пахнущий hi!
>
> Состоит он в следующем.
> - сматывается синтетическая или шелковая оболочка на длине ~3см
> - расплетаются "косы" жгута (в российских Litz их обычно
> 5-7-...)
> - аккуратно скручиваются все проволочки каждой "косы"
> - берется небольшая (10-20 мл) стеклянная или металическая емкость со
> спиртом
> - зажигается небольшая спиртовка (на жидком спирте или используются
> твердые спиртовые "таблетки")
> - далее КОНЕЦ (1-3 мм) каждой "косы" вношу в пламя спиртовой
> горелки.
> Сначала обгорает лак проволочек (в российском Litz это обычно нестойкие
> натуральные лаки) на длине 1-2 см. А далее проволочки начинают
> нагреваться до слегка красного цвета (не более нескольких секунд).
> - СРАЗУ же опускаю нагретый конец "косы" в емкость со спиртом.
> Провод
> приобретает красивый красный цвет оттожённой меди на длине 1-1.5 см.
> А главное сразу его можно лудить в простой канифоли и это очень легко
> получается.
> Иногда спирт в емкости может загореться - прикройте емкость чем-нибудь
> и пламя потухнет
> - и так для всех "кос" жгута Litz
>
> Вместо спиртовки можно использовать газовую горелку кухонной плиты.
> Последний вариант очень нравится моей жене (особенно если надо
> залудить много Litz!) и она разрешает даже приносить паяльник на кухню
> - во время моих занятий мы можем обсудить с ней наши житейские
> проблемы hi! Из-за моего хобби это не так часто случается... hi!
>
> Можно потренироваться лудить этим методом на кусочках Litz, но думаю,
> что после 2-3 попыток у вас получится хорошо это делать
>
> 73! Ed RU6LA mailto:ed@dx.ru
>
>
>

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From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12692 invoked from network); 15 May 2002 14:00:53 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2002 14:00:53 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 18436 invoked from network); 15 May 2002 14:00:46 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2002 14:00:46 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177zEI-0004Cw-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 14:54:10 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177zEH-0004Cr-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 14:54:09 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 177zEG-0003Sk-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 14:54:08 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 177zEF-000414-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 14:54:07 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020515133820.00abe9b0@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:54:05 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: LF: RE: litz wire In-reply-to: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Bill, LF Group, I have a considerable amount of Litz wire recovered from a scrap Decca loading coil - as has been said, there is more than one type of enamel used. The newer type (usually orange, red or pink) is self-fluxing, which is easy, but the type I have is a dark brown enamel that seems impervious to any chemicals I have tried, including Nitromors and other types of paint stripper. The alcohol burner method removes it well, but with 729 strands it is not really practical to burn the insulation off all the strands without causing a raging inferno! Similarly, the asprin method works to a degree, but it only cleans some of the strands with thick litz wire, the residue makes it difficult to repeat the process to clean the remaining strands, and the smoke generated is horrendous! The method I have used is to burn the insulation off with a blowtorch - but to do this without burning away a lot of the strands some care is needed. First, strip about 70 - 100mm of the plastic sheathing, and un-twist the end 25mm so that the strands are like a small paint brush. Then, tightly wrap this end in a strip of copper foil, such as might be peeled off a PCB. Wrap the strands next to the plastic sheathing in another piece of foil, and clamp in a metal clamp or vice - this acts as a heatsink to stop the sheathing melting. Then heat the foil-wrapped end with a blowtorch, taking care to apply the flame only to the foil, not the strands. The foil gets red hot, and the enamel burns off with an oily flame. After it has cooled, unwrap the foil - it looks like the enamel has just turned black, but the residue can be removed fairly easily by dipping it in water and brushing gently with a toothbrush, or rubbing the strands together like cleaning a paintbrush, to leave clean copper. Then it can be tinned in the normal way. I can't say it is an easy method, but it does work with otherwise indestructible enamel, and after a few practice runs it gave me satisfactory results for my loading coil. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24028 invoked from network); 15 May 2002 11:59:28 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2002 11:59:28 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 28410 invoked from network); 15 May 2002 11:59:21 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2002 11:59:21 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177xNc-0003sQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 12:55:40 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177xNa-0003sL-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 12:55:38 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu06.dialup2.infomsk.ru [212.164.44.118]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA3ce24c760204 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 18:54:30 +0700 (OSS) Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 19:34:52 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Ground loss In-reply-to: <3.0.1.16.20020515091223.2df7ee54@pb623250.kuleuven.be> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi, Rik. TNX for the coments. On Wed, 15 May 2002, Rik Strobbe wrote: > I believe there is a misunderstanding, the antenna wire (Lant) remains long > (several 10's meter), only the counterpoison (Lcp) is reduced to 0.2m > (small ground rod). This creates a larger Lant/Lcp ratio in your formula, > resulting in a large R. Realy there is Cant/Ccp in the formula. Because C = 5pF*L (if L is few meters) I change Cant/Ccp to Lant/Lcp. Thanks a lot for describtion of Your experiments. I'll be thinking... 73 de RA9MB/Alex http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10846 invoked from network); 15 May 2002 08:35:32 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2002 08:35:32 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 28675 invoked by uid 10001); 15 May 2002 08:39:26 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2002 08:39:26 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177tzT-0003JK-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 09:18:31 +0100 Received: from mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.50]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177tzS-0003JD-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 09:18:30 +0100 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.12.1/8.12.1) with SMTP id g4F8HwcN038164 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 10:17:58 +0200 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20020515091223.2df7ee54@pb623250.kuleuven.be> X-Sender: pb623250@pb623250.kuleuven.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:12:23 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: RE: LF: Ground loss In-reply-to: References: <3.0.1.16.20020514131621.08dfed86@pb623250.kuleuven.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >When I derive the formula I assumed wires capacitance 5 pF/meter >If wire is VERY short (0.2 meters) it's not true. For such a short >wire there is about 20 pF/meter. If do some corrections resistance for >ground rode of 0.2 meter is about 3000 Ohm, not 11700 Ohm. >Are You sure real resistance is few hundred Ohm WHEN THERE IS NO LONG >WIRE to connect TX to such a short ground rod? Does You do such >experiment? Hello Alex, I believe there is a misunderstanding, the antenna wire (Lant) remains long (several 10's meter), only the counterpoison (Lcp) is reduced to 0.2m (small ground rod). This creates a larger Lant/Lcp ratio in your formula, resulting in a large R. Few years ago I did some experiments on antenna capacitance / loss resistance depending on the radial system. At the moment I had the radials on the ground (not burried), so I could easily change the radial configuration. At the base of the antenna I had a 30cm ground stake. I noticed that : 1. the antenna capacitance was rather independent from the radial system (180pF with only 30cm ground stake / 200pF with full radial system of in total 80m of wire. 2. the loss resistance varied from 180 Ohm with only groundstake to 80 Ohm with the full radial system. When gradually adding radials I noticed that the first radials made the big change (120 Ohm with 20m radials, 90 Ohm with 40m radials, 80 Ohm with 80m radials). The test antenna at that moment was a 7m high 'umbrella like' antenna (in total 30m wire) kept away from any obstacles as far as possible. Later test showed that a 14m high antenna close to trees had a larger loss resistance of about 110 Ohm (winter) to 140 Ohm (summer) but dispite that it produced a much stronger signal. 73, Rik ON7YD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25661 invoked from network); 15 May 2002 04:22:15 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2002 04:22:15 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 26858 invoked from network); 15 May 2002 04:22:07 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2002 04:22:07 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177qCV-0002hZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 05:15:43 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177qCU-0002hT-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 05:15:42 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu06.dialup2.infomsk.ru [212.164.44.118]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA3ce1df2c231f for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 11:08:12 +0700 (OSS) Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 11:48:34 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Ground loss In-reply-to: <3.0.1.16.20020514104945.21f7a680@pb623250.kuleuven.be> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi, Rik. On Tue, 14 May 2002, Rik Strobbe wrote: > too large (eg. salt water) the counterpoise won't be of much use. On the > other side even for s = 0 (worst soil you can think of) R won't be endless > as the counterpoise will still work. I forgot to notice: When formula was derived a<<1 was assumed. This correspond to real conucting not dielectric ground. It's not very problem to avoid this limitation but now real situation seems more interesting. About too large S I'd say as folows. Are You sure conserpoise (ground rod) length won't be important for GROUND LOSS resistance in this case? May be it is not important for ALL loss resistance of antenna because coil resistance and radiation resistance (if antenna is large). About resistance dependance on frequency it seems then enviroment loss is frequency depending, not ground resistance itself. Unfortunely I can not estimate enviroment losses yet... 73 de RA9MB/Alex http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19867 invoked from network); 15 May 2002 03:59:09 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2002 03:59:09 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 15601 invoked by uid 10001); 15 May 2002 04:03:06 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2002 04:03:06 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177poO-0002d1-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 04:50:48 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177poM-0002cv-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 04:50:47 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu06.dialup2.infomsk.ru [212.164.44.118]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA3ce1da4b1f09 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 10:47:23 +0700 (OSS) Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 11:27:44 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Ground loss In-reply-to: <3.0.1.16.20020514131621.08dfed86@pb623250.kuleuven.be> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi, Rik. On Tue, 14 May 2002, Rik Strobbe wrote: > > >If Lcp=0 this means that ground wire only touch to the ground in infinity > >small point. So R should be infinity large. If there is no conterpoint > >Lcp is a ground rod length. > I agree about Lcp is really 0. > But if I take Lcp = 0.2m (short ground rod only), Lant= 30m , C = 150pF (Xc > = 7800 Ohm) and a = 0.01 then R = (Lant/Lcp)*a*Xc = 11700 Ohm. I believe > that this value is far too high, a more realistic value would be a few > hundred Ohm. When I derive the formula I assumed wires capacitance 5 pF/meter If wire is VERY short (0.2 meters) it's not true. For such a short wire there is about 20 pF/meter. If do some corrections resistance for ground rode of 0.2 meter is about 3000 Ohm, not 11700 Ohm. Are You sure real resistance is few hundred Ohm WHEN THERE IS NO LONG WIRE to connect TX to such a short ground rod? Does You do such experiment? 73 de RA9MB/Alex http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27514 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 23:56:03 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 23:56:03 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 15692 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 23:55:51 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 23:55:51 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177m3j-00020M-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 00:50:23 +0100 Received: from web13306.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.175.42]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177m3i-00020H-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 00:50:22 +0100 Message-ID: <20020514235019.73703.qmail@web13306.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.125.44.226] by web13306.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 14 May 2002 16:50:19 PDT Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 16:50:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "Michael Silvers" Subject: LF: RE: litz wire To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, lowfer@mailman.qth.net In-reply-to: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Bill & Group, I believe why Litz wire has such a low AC resistance is because each strand is insulated and when soldered together you get the parallel resistance of each of the strand of insulated wire. With uninsulated, stranded wire you may have the same current carrying capacitiy but you more than likely have a higher resistance because all the strands are in contact with one another & the current path will be through all the contacts that offer the least resistance but better than solid wire because of the increase perimeter length. If you know the particulars of your type of Litz wire, looking on http://www.mwswire.com/insspec.htm may offer some help to what method will be required to strip your type of wire. For example, the polyimide type insulation will be impossible to strip with a soldering iron, thermal class 2400C. Methylene chloride is your best bet. The 1800C thermal class is solderable but with large wire diameters may still be difficult with a soldering iron. 73 de Mike KB6WFC --- "Ashlock,William" wrote: > Mal and LF group, > > Thanks for all the comments on how to strip the Litz > wire. I'm continuing to > experiment and last night I placed a sample of the > wire in my paint stripper > for an overnight test. This morning the color had > changed from a red to a > typical bare copper color, but a check of the > conductivity indicated there > is still some insulation remaining. It's back in the > stripper at the moment > for another dose. My conclusion is that this > stripper is too weak to handle > the job. Typical of most dangerous products on the > market these days, it's > probably been 'watered down'. > > Mal, I'll check the ingredients tonight and see if > Methylene dichloride is > one of them. Thanks for this. > > BTW, with all due respect, I don't buy your: "3mm > litz wire is marginally > better than normal 2.5mm stranded insulated wire the > advantage is small", if > you are talking TX loops (which may not have been > the case). My TX loop > measurements indicate the Litz would be 2.4x lower > in Rac, separate from the > soil loss, which runs 0.22 ohms (dry) on my 50'/50' > loops. I should have a > complete table of many TX loop conductor > configurations with Rac totals, > including soil loss from <0.40 (4xlitz) to 1.4 > (single #12), completed in > about a week. > > Bill A > > > Hello Bill and all > > To remove the enamel from litz wire I use paint > stripper called nitromorse. > Remove all the cotton/plastic insulation from the > cable end to be soldered > to expose the multi strand enameled wires. Brush the > end of cable with a > tooth brush to separate the strands and flatten out. > Use the tooth brush to apply the paint stripper to > the splayed out cable > strands, making sure it gets to all the strands. > Leave for about 10 minutes > or more, then brush away the disolved enamel. I > carry out this process twice > to ensure that all enamel has been removed. The > final job is to wash the > exposed copper cable end with turps etc using a > cloth, then start > soldering. I strip back about 1 inch of the cable > end. > I have used the above procedure a number of times > and it works well. Paint > stripper and a tooth brush are readily available. > This method is also > economical on solder, no need for special tools like > solder pots and bunsen > burners. > Any good paint stripper would do. My contents label > says the stripper > contains 5 - 20 percent > Methylene dichloride, it does not say what the rest > is. > This is dangerous stuff to get on skin, eyes etc and > brush away from you so > that it does not flick into your eyes or skin. > The container/can specifies what precautions are > nessary for use. > I find although 3mm litz wire is marginally better > than normal 2.5mm > stranded insulated wire the advantage is small > compared to the effort > required to solder and weight considerations, > especially for large loops or > horizontal wire antennas. I also have noticed since > winding my 0.5 mH > loading coil for the vertical with 3 mm litz wire it > is more critical to > keep on the nose at resonance, possibly because of > the higher Q than the > previous 2.5 mm multi strand insulated copper wire. > I hope these observations help you. > My current 90 metre perimiter loop uses 2.5 mm > insulated wire. I use it for > RX only and as said previously I have to throttle > the RF gain back on even > the very weak signals. I do not use any preamps only > the RX or Level meter > SPM 12. I cannot see any advantage using litz for > this purpose. > To use the loop on TX there would be an advantage > using litz but probably > the db gain would hardly be noticeable. > Very small loops on LF like 1 metre square etc might > be a different story, > but this does not apply in my case. > > 73 de Mal/G3KEV > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > This message has been checked for all known viruses > by UUNET delivered > through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For > further information visit > http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > This message has been checked for all known viruses > by UUNET delivered > through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For > further information visit > http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11665 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 16:53:01 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 16:53:01 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 4375 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 16:52:50 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 16:52:50 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177fPr-0000rU-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 17:44:47 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177fPq-0000rP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 17:44:46 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 8681 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 16:44:21 -0000 Received: from merimac.us.gases.boc.com (HELO merimac) (204.149.80.4) by server-14.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 14 May 2002 16:44:21 -0000 Received: by EXC_WIL04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 14 May 2002 12:51:56 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: litz wire Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 12:34:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Mal and LF group, Thanks for all the comments on how to strip the Litz wire. I'm continuing to experiment and last night I placed a sample of the wire in my paint stripper for an overnight test. This morning the color had changed from a red to a typical bare copper color, but a check of the conductivity indicated there is still some insulation remaining. It's back in the stripper at the moment for another dose. My conclusion is that this stripper is too weak to handle the job. Typical of most dangerous products on the market these days, it's probably been 'watered down'. Mal, I'll check the ingredients tonight and see if Methylene dichloride is one of them. Thanks for this. BTW, with all due respect, I don't buy your: "3mm litz wire is marginally better than normal 2.5mm stranded insulated wire the advantage is small", if you are talking TX loops (which may not have been the case). My TX loop measurements indicate the Litz would be 2.4x lower in Rac, separate from the soil loss, which runs 0.22 ohms (dry) on my 50'/50' loops. I should have a complete table of many TX loop conductor configurations with Rac totals, including soil loss from <0.40 (4xlitz) to 1.4 (single #12), completed in about a week. Bill A Hello Bill and all To remove the enamel from litz wire I use paint stripper called nitromorse. Remove all the cotton/plastic insulation from the cable end to be soldered to expose the multi strand enameled wires. Brush the end of cable with a tooth brush to separate the strands and flatten out. Use the tooth brush to apply the paint stripper to the splayed out cable strands, making sure it gets to all the strands. Leave for about 10 minutes or more, then brush away the disolved enamel. I carry out this process twice to ensure that all enamel has been removed. The final job is to wash the exposed copper cable end with turps etc using a cloth, then start soldering. I strip back about 1 inch of the cable end. I have used the above procedure a number of times and it works well. Paint stripper and a tooth brush are readily available. This method is also economical on solder, no need for special tools like solder pots and bunsen burners. Any good paint stripper would do. My contents label says the stripper contains 5 - 20 percent Methylene dichloride, it does not say what the rest is. This is dangerous stuff to get on skin, eyes etc and brush away from you so that it does not flick into your eyes or skin. The container/can specifies what precautions are nessary for use. I find although 3mm litz wire is marginally better than normal 2.5mm stranded insulated wire the advantage is small compared to the effort required to solder and weight considerations, especially for large loops or horizontal wire antennas. I also have noticed since winding my 0.5 mH loading coil for the vertical with 3 mm litz wire it is more critical to keep on the nose at resonance, possibly because of the higher Q than the previous 2.5 mm multi strand insulated copper wire. I hope these observations help you. My current 90 metre perimiter loop uses 2.5 mm insulated wire. I use it for RX only and as said previously I have to throttle the RF gain back on even the very weak signals. I do not use any preamps only the RX or Level meter SPM 12. I cannot see any advantage using litz for this purpose. To use the loop on TX there would be an advantage using litz but probably the db gain would hardly be noticeable. Very small loops on LF like 1 metre square etc might be a different story, but this does not apply in my case. 73 de Mal/G3KEV _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29388 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 14:08:45 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 14:08:45 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 20778 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 14:08:38 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 14:08:38 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177cwM-0000NF-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 15:06:10 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177cwK-0000N7-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 15:06:08 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu06.dialup2.infomsk.ru [212.164.44.118]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA3ce1195e3970 for ; Tue, 14 May 2002 21:04:14 +0700 (OSS) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 21:44:34 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Ground loss In-reply-to: <3.0.1.16.20020514131621.08dfed86@pb623250.kuleuven.be> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi, Rik. On Tue, 14 May 2002, Rik Strobbe wrote: > >If Lcp=0 this means that ground wire only touch to the ground in infinity > >small point. So R should be infinity large. If there is no conterpoint > >Lcp is a ground rod length. > I agree about Lcp is really 0. > But if I take Lcp = 0.2m (short ground rod only), Lant= 30m , C = 150pF (Xc > = 7800 Ohm) and a = 0.01 then R = (Lant/Lcp)*a*Xc = 11700 Ohm. I believe > that this value is far too high, a more realistic value would be a few > hundred Ohm. You are right. May be it's because I assumed conterpoint ON THE GROUND, not burred... I will thinking about bured wires... 73 de RA9MB/Alex http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10807 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 13:54:45 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 13:54:45 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 29550 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 13:54:31 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 13:54:31 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177chH-0000Ig-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 14:50:35 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177chG-0000Ib-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 14:50:34 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu06.dialup2.infomsk.ru [212.164.44.118]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA3ce11551376c for ; Tue, 14 May 2002 20:46:57 +0700 (OSS) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 21:27:18 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Ground loss In-reply-to: <20020514125332.E3D16B6DD@xmxpita.excite.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi, John On Tue, 14 May 2002, john sexton wrote: > > Most probably you are considering a flat surface and perhaps an entirely > vertical antenna? This may be all well and good for a commercial > antenna, but amateur antennas like mine are not on a flat surface, are > surrounded by > leaky capacitors like trees, buildings, etc. and are only partly > vertical. Flat surface (no enviroment loss only ground loss) was assumed. 73 de RA9MB/Alex http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29106 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 12:57:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 12:57:13 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 21913 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 12:57:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 12:57:00 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177boe-00007U-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 13:54:08 +0100 Received: from nat6.excitenetwork.com ([63.236.75.8] helo=xmxpita.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177bod-00007P-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 13:54:07 +0100 Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id E3D16B6DD; Tue, 14 May 2002 08:53:32 -0400 (EDT) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Ground loss Received: from [62.253.64.8] by xprdmailfe18.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; Tue, 14 May 2002 08:53:32 EST From: "john sexton" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: computernetworks@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20020514125332.E3D16B6DD@xmxpita.excite.com> Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 08:53:32 -0400 (EDT) Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Sasha,
I'm afraid this formula gives a result which is an order of magnitude less than measured here.
Soil conductivity is about 0.002 Siemens/metre (chalk). From notes of one of my test configurations, I had C =233pF, lant = 40.5 metres, lcp = 100 metres. With these figures the formula gives R = 7.7 ohms, whereas the measure value was 93 ohms.

Most probably you are considering a flat surface and perhaps an entirely vertical antenna? This may be all well and good for a commercial antenna, but amateur antennas like mine are not on a flat surface, are surrounded by leaky capacitors like trees, buildings, etc. and are only partly vertical.

It is common experience among this community that increasing the coverage of ground with wire only works up to a point and beyond that no gains are achieved.

See G4FGQ site http://www.g4fgq.com for several useful free programs which include information about values of conductivity for different ground.

If your advanced formula takes into account the environment, trees, buildings, etc., non flat ground and antennas that are partly horizontal and partly vertical it could be very useful.

73, John, G4CNN

Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web! From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23691 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 12:26:28 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 12:26:28 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 2987 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 12:26:14 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 12:26:14 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177bK1-00001r-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 13:22:29 +0100 Received: from mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.50]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177bK0-00001m-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 13:22:28 +0100 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.12.1/8.12.1) with SMTP id g4ECLucF076106 for ; Tue, 14 May 2002 14:21:56 +0200 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20020514131621.08dfed86@pb623250.kuleuven.be> X-Sender: pb623250@pb623250.kuleuven.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:16:21 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: RE: LF: Ground loss In-reply-to: References: <3.0.1.16.20020514104945.21f7a680@pb623250.kuleuven.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello Alex, >If Lcp=0 this means that ground wire only touch to the ground in infinity >small point. So R should be infinity large. If there is no conterpoint >Lcp is a ground rod length. I agree about Lcp is really 0. But if I take Lcp = 0.2m (short ground rod only), Lant= 30m , C = 150pF (Xc = 7800 Ohm) and a = 0.01 then R = (Lant/Lcp)*a*Xc = 11700 Ohm. I believe that this value is far too high, a more realistic value would be a few hundred Ohm. >One more quation, Rik. Do You get formula I sent to Group for rectangular >loop inductance? I am not sure You get it... Yes, have a look at : http://www.qsl.net/on7yd/136ant.htm#TransmitLoop > >73 de RA9MB/Alex >http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb > > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23591 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 11:13:37 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 11:13:37 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 13468 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 11:13:26 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 11:13:26 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177aCm-0008Kc-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 12:10:56 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177aCl-0008KR-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 12:10:55 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu06.dialup2.infomsk.ru [212.164.44.118]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA3ce0f07f22a8 for ; Tue, 14 May 2002 18:09:51 +0700 (OSS) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 18:50:12 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Ground loss In-reply-to: <3.0.1.16.20020514104945.21f7a680@pb623250.kuleuven.be> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi, Rik! On Tue, 14 May 2002, Rik Strobbe wrote: > I believe the limitations of the formula probably are : > 1.The ratio Lant/Lcp should not be too big or small. Increasing Lcp far > beyond Lant won't be a great help. On the other hand, even with Lcp = 0 (no > cointerpoise wire) the loss resistance will not be endless If Lcp=0 this means that ground wire only touch to the ground in infinity small point. So R should be infinity large. If there is no conterpoint Lcp is a ground rod length. > 2. S (ground conductivity) should not be too large or too small. If S is > too large (eg. salt water) the counterpoise won't be of much use. On the > other side even for s = 0 (worst soil you can think of) R won't be endless > as the counterpoise will still work. Certenly, this is a real problem... One more quation, Rik. Do You get formula I sent to Group for rectangular loop inductance? I am not sure You get it... 73 de RA9MB/Alex http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19675 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 11:13:35 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 11:13:35 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 3830 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 11:13:25 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 11:13:25 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177aCh-0008KW-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 12:10:51 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177aCf-0008KR-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 12:10:50 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu06.dialup2.infomsk.ru [212.164.44.118]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA3ce0f06722a1 for ; Tue, 14 May 2002 18:09:27 +0700 (OSS) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 18:49:49 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Ground loss In-reply-to: <20020514094731.07F173DF5@xmxpita.excite.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi, John. On Tue, 14 May 2002, john sexton wrote: > Are you sure that you have written the formula correctly? > > Omega (2 Pi f) appears in "a" in the numerator and in "Xc" in the > denominator and therefore cancels out, making the formula frequency > independent! Yes, it's so. I know that R is frequency depedent realy. May be this is low frequency limit formula when frequency variation disappears. May be next more advanced formula will yeld such a behavior. Any way someone is better than nothing... 73 de RA9MB/Alex http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28266 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 10:41:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 10:41:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 14571 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 10:40:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 10:40:55 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177ZgK-0008DV-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 11:37:24 +0100 Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.111]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177ZgJ-0008DQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 11:37:23 +0100 Received: from host213-122-86-94.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.86.94] helo=presario-1920) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 177ZgG-0006zl-00; Tue, 14 May 2002 11:37:21 +0100 From: "John W Gould" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: USA/136 Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:38:04 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <001601c1f990$c9eddb60$87e4fc3e@l8p8y6> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Just to remind all that RSGB guidance on the use of 136HKz, at http://www.rsgb.org.uk/bandplans/136khz.htm, lines up with Mal's comment below.  The detail of this updated guidance has been sent to the IARU Region 1 Conference that meets shortly.  
 
73 John, G3WKL
-----Original Message-----
From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of hamilton mal
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 09:06
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: USA/136

Good news for the LF community that the USA will soon be operationg on 136 khz. There should be some excitement later on in the year when propagation is suitable for two way qso's on the band between EU and the USA.
Some sort of bandplan needs to be implemented to avoid EU stations blocking the DX.
For QRS activity ie 1 sec to 60 sec dots if the EU stations stick to the estabished practice of using 135.920 khz plus of minus a few hertz, maybe the USA could use 137.600 area. I am sure others will have some suggestions, but a mixture of PSK, JASON and QRS all on the same frequency would not be helpful.
Before long two way on LF across the pond will be the norm !!
73 de Mal/G3KEV
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8742 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 10:23:15 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 10:23:15 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 25294 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 10:23:08 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 10:23:08 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177ZPv-0008AQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 11:20:27 +0100 Received: from mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.50]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177ZPu-00089u-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 11:20:26 +0100 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.12.1/8.12.1) with SMTP id g4EAJscF042986 for ; Tue, 14 May 2002 12:19:54 +0200 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20020514111419.2f473f1e@pb623250.kuleuven.be> X-Sender: pb623250@pb623250.kuleuven.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:14:19 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: Re: LF: G3LNP Loop/Loop Amplifier In-reply-to: <3CE0E14B.2010301@bigpond.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Tony, have a look at there places : http://web.ukonline.co.uk/g3ldo/loop.htm http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/receive.htm or for more general info on homebrew projects : http://www.qsl.net/on7yd/136brew.htm 73, Rik ON7YD At 20:04 14/05/02 +1000, you wrote: >I am interested in AM broadcast band long distance radio listening and >would appreciate any info in the article on the >G3LNP loop and especially the loop amplifier - Is there circuit info on >the net - or where could I obtain this article > >73 >Tony Magon VK2IC ex ZL4DE and ZL7DE > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9216 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 10:10:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 10:10:08 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 14492 invoked by uid 10001); 14 May 2002 10:14:01 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 10:14:01 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177ZDe-00086v-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 11:07:46 +0100 Received: from mta02bw.bigpond.com ([139.134.6.34]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177ZDd-00086o-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 11:07:45 +0100 Received: from bigpond.com ([144.135.24.69]) by mta02bw.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15 mta02bw Feb 26 2002 03:44:21) with SMTP id GW3IS300.I1U for ; Tue, 14 May 2002 20:07:15 +1000 Received: from WOPR-p-144-134-26-33.prem.tmns.net.au ([144.134.26.33]) by bwmam01.mailsvc.email.bigpond.com(MailRouter V3.0m 2/2089580); 14 May 2002 20:07:15 Message-ID: <3CE0E14B.2010301@bigpond.com> Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 20:04:59 +1000 From: "Tony Magon" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: G3LNP Loop/Loop Amplifier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I am interested in AM broadcast band long distance radio listening and would appreciate any info in the article on the G3LNP loop and especially the loop amplifier - Is there circuit info on the net - or where could I obtain this article 73 Tony Magon VK2IC ex ZL4DE and ZL7DE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12600 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 09:59:44 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 09:59:44 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 6574 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 09:59:34 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 09:59:34 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177Z28-00082j-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 10:55:52 +0100 Received: from mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.50]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177Z27-00082e-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 10:55:51 +0100 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.12.1/8.12.1) with SMTP id g4E9tJcF102812 for ; Tue, 14 May 2002 11:55:20 +0200 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20020514104945.21f7a680@pb623250.kuleuven.be> X-Sender: pb623250@pb623250.kuleuven.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 10:49:45 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: RE: LF: Ground loss In-reply-to: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello Alex, Interesting formula. Assuming that the antenna capcity (C) is linear proportional to the antenna length (Lant) this means that Lant*Xc is a constant. Measurements have shown that the capacitance of an LF antenna is +/- 5pF/m (single wire antenna), so that would make Lant*Xc = 2.34e+5. At 136kHz eps0*w = 7.56e-6, so : a = 7.56e-6/S This would simplify the formula R = (Lant/Lcp)*a*Xc to R = 1.77/(S*Lcp) (at 136kHz) This makes sense as both increasing radial system as increasing ground conductivity will reduce R. I believe the limitations of the formula probably are : 1.The ratio Lant/Lcp should not be too big or small. Increasing Lcp far beyond Lant won't be a great help. On the other hand, even with Lcp = 0 (no cointerpoise wire) the loss resistance will not be endless. 2. S (ground conductivity) should not be too large or too small. If S is too large (eg. salt water) the counterpoise won't be of much use. On the other side even for s = 0 (worst soil you can think of) R won't be endless as the counterpoise will still work. thanks for deriving the formula, 73 Rik ON7YD At 16:17 14/05/02 +0000, you wrote: > >Hi LF Group > >> On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, john sexton wrote: >> If you do find a model that works, please let us know. > > >On the base of my own "generalased mirror reflection theory" I just have >derive the formula for ground loss resistance: > > >R = (lant/lcp)*a*Xc > >where: > >lant - wire length of antenna, >lcp - wire length of ground system (conterpoint), >a = (eps0*w)/s, >eps0 - dielectric constant (8.85e-12 F/m), >w = 6.28*f - circular frequency, >s - ground conductivity. >Xc = 1/(w*C) - antenna reactance, >C - antenna capasitance. > >For 136 kHz and s=1 mSm/m a is about 0.01 > > >The formula is very aproximative but yelds reasonable value of R. > >Now I work on more advanced formula wich should be more accurate. > >Any coments please! > >73 de RA9MB/Alex >http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb > > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19976 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 09:50:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 09:50:52 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 29963 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 09:50:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 09:50:42 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177Yua-00080w-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 10:48:04 +0100 Received: from nat5.excitenetwork.com ([63.236.75.7] helo=xmxpita.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177YuZ-00080r-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 10:48:03 +0100 Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id 07F173DF5; Tue, 14 May 2002 05:47:31 -0400 (EDT) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Ground loss Received: from [62.253.64.8] by xprdmailfe8.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; Tue, 14 May 2002 05:47:31 EST From: "john sexton" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: computernetworks@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20020514094731.07F173DF5@xmxpita.excite.com> Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 05:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Sasha,
Are you sure that you have written the formula correctly?

Omega (2 Pi f) appears in "a" in the numerator and in "Xc" in the denominator and therefore cancels out, making the formula frequency independent!

Perhaps there is a typo??

73, John, G4CNN


--- On Tue 05/14, Alexander S. Yurkov wrote:
>
> Hi LF Group
>
> > On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, john sexton wrote:
> > If you do find a model that works, please let us know.
>
>
> On the base of my own "generalased mirror reflection theory" I
> just have
> derive the formula for ground loss resistance:
>
>
> R = (lant/lcp)*a*Xc
>
> where:
>
> lant - wire length of antenna,
> lcp - wire length of ground system (conterpoint),
> a = (eps0*w)/s,
> eps0 - dielectric constant (8.85e-12 F/m),
> w = 6.28*f - circular frequency,
> s - ground conductivity.
> Xc = 1/(w*C) - antenna reactance,
> C - antenna capasitance.
>
> For 136 kHz and s=1 mSm/m a is about 0.01
>
>
> The formula is very aproximative but yelds reasonable value of R.
>
> Now I work on more advanced formula wich should be more accurate.
>
> Any coments please!
>
> 73 de RA9MB/Alex
> http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb
>
>
>
>

Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web! From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17678 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 09:30:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 09:30:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 2721 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 09:30:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 09:30:14 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177YYu-0007wa-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 10:25:40 +0100 Received: from mta4-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.44]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177YYt-0007wV-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 10:25:39 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.228.57]) by mta4-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020514092537.WSNV26526.mta4-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Tue, 14 May 2002 10:25:37 +0100 Message-ID: <001c01c1fb29$74ee74e0$39e4fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: litz wire Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 10:26:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hello Bill and all
 
To remove the enamel from litz wire I use paint stripper called nitromorse.
Remove all the cotton/plastic insulation from the cable end to be soldered to expose the multi strand enameled wires. Brush the end of cable with a tooth brush to separate the strands and flatten out.
Use the tooth brush to apply the paint stripper to the splayed out cable strands, making sure it gets to all the strands. Leave for about 10 minutes or more, then brush away the disolved enamel. I carry out this process twice to ensure that all enamel has been removed. The final job is to wash the exposed copper cable  end with turps etc using a cloth, then start soldering. I strip back about 1 inch of the cable end.
I have used the above procedure a number of times and it works well. Paint stripper and a tooth brush are readily available. This method is also economical on solder, no need for special tools like solder pots and bunsen burners.
Any good paint stripper would do. My contents label says the stripper contains 5 - 20 percent
Methylene dichloride, it does not say what the rest is.
This is dangerous stuff to get on skin, eyes etc and brush away from you so that it does not flick into your eyes or skin.
The container/can specifies what precautions are nessary for use.
I find although 3mm litz wire is marginally better than normal 2.5mm stranded insulated wire the advantage is small compared to the effort required to solder and weight considerations, especially for large loops or horizontal wire antennas. I also have noticed since winding my 0.5 mH loading coil for the vertical with 3 mm litz wire it is more critical to keep on the nose at resonance, possibly because of the higher Q than the previous 2.5 mm multi strand insulated copper wire.
I hope these observations help you.
My current 90 metre perimiter loop uses 2.5 mm insulated wire. I use it for RX only and as said previously I have to throttle the RF gain back on even the very weak signals. I do not use any preamps only the RX or Level meter SPM 12. I cannot see any advantage using litz for this purpose.
To use the loop on TX there would be an advantage using litz but probably the db gain would hardly be noticeable.
Very small loops on LF like 1 metre square etc might be a different story, but this does not apply in my case.
 
73 de Mal/G3KEV
  
 
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24848 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 08:44:05 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 08:44:05 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 15728 invoked by uid 10001); 14 May 2002 08:47:58 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 08:47:58 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177Xs4-0007oA-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 09:41:24 +0100 Received: from astral.infomsk.ru ([212.164.44.2] helo=astral.omskcity.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177Xs3-0007o5-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 09:41:23 +0100 Received: from fitec.omskcity.com (mu06.dialup2.infomsk.ru [212.164.44.118]) by astral.omskcity.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA3ce0ccc00936 for ; Tue, 14 May 2002 15:37:20 +0700 (OSS) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 16:17:40 +0000 (GMT) From: "Alexander S. Yurkov" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Ground loss In-reply-to: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi LF Group > On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, john sexton wrote: > If you do find a model that works, please let us know. On the base of my own "generalased mirror reflection theory" I just have derive the formula for ground loss resistance: R = (lant/lcp)*a*Xc where: lant - wire length of antenna, lcp - wire length of ground system (conterpoint), a = (eps0*w)/s, eps0 - dielectric constant (8.85e-12 F/m), w = 6.28*f - circular frequency, s - ground conductivity. Xc = 1/(w*C) - antenna reactance, C - antenna capasitance. For 136 kHz and s=1 mSm/m a is about 0.01 The formula is very aproximative but yelds reasonable value of R. Now I work on more advanced formula wich should be more accurate. Any coments please! 73 de RA9MB/Alex http://www.qsl.net/ra9mb From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21284 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 08:22:18 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 08:22:18 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 25835 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 08:22:04 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 08:22:04 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177XX4-0007kF-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 09:19:42 +0100 Received: from relay.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.49]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177XX3-0007k8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 09:19:41 +0100 Received: (qmail 7513 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 09:19:38 +0100 Received: from butterfly.mod.uk (HELO warlock.dstl.gov.uk) (192.5.29.10) by relay.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 14 May 2002 09:19:38 +0100 Message-ID: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803DCB9AA4@mail.dstl.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: "LF Group \(E-mail\)" Subject: LF: AD9850/51 DDS - Increased power output Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 09:19:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: It is possible to get 9dB more power out of the AD9850 and AD9851 DDS chips by using a 2+2:1 centre tapped transformer from both Iout pins with the centre tap to ground to complete a DC path. The output from the transformer is then at 50 ohms making filter design rather easier. This way 7dBm in the HF to VHF range is available - enough to drive a diode ring mixer without any extra gain stage. The push-pull drive also reduces some spurious levels - particularly clock frequency leakage, which makes bandpass filtering the image products more feasible. The circuit details are given in the AD9851 data sheet available at www.analog.com Andy G4JNT "The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence" "is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s)." "For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, " "or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is" "prohibited and may be unlawful." From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 665 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 07:43:18 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 07:43:18 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 12976 invoked from network); 14 May 2002 07:43:02 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2002 07:43:02 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177WrE-0007bc-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 08:36:28 +0100 Received: from mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.50]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177WrD-0007bU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 08:36:27 +0100 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.12.1/8.12.1) with SMTP id g4E7ZtcF021570 for ; Tue, 14 May 2002 09:35:55 +0200 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20020514083021.2d6f75de@pb623250.kuleuven.be> X-Sender: pb623250@pb623250.kuleuven.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 08:30:21 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: Re: LF: RE: Re: RE: USA/136 In-reply-to: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello Bill, maybe asperine will do it. It is an old trick and has been described by PA0SE (if I remind well) on the reflector. Just turn a couple of asperines into powder, rub the litz in the asperine powder and heat it with a soldering iron of sufficient power. Be sure to use asperine or any other painkiller based on acetilecalecil acid, not the newer ones that are based on paracetanol. 73, Rik ON7YD >OK on all your comments below. Just by coincidence I'm trying to strip the >enamel insulation on this Decca Litz wire and just 5 min ago I ran across a >posting by you back in Sept 12 of 2001 on the subject. You indicate that >paint stripper worked for your wire but, unfortunately, it doesn't seem to >work for me. I'm guessing my problem is the type of stripper I am using. Can >you tell me the brand name of the product you used and/or the ingredients >listed on the can? From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4176 invoked from network); 13 May 2002 23:25:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2002 23:25:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 26183 invoked from network); 13 May 2002 23:24:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2002 23:24:52 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177P4Z-0006Yy-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 00:17:43 +0100 Received: from mail2.mx.voyager.net ([216.93.66.201]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177P4Y-0006Yt-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 00:17:42 +0100 Received: from k6500 (d12.as3.mpls.mn.voyager.net [169.207.249.236] (may be forged)) by mail2.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id g4DNHdd24016 for ; Mon, 13 May 2002 19:17:39 -0400 (EDT) From: "WE0H" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: RE: Re: RE: USA/136 Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 18:19:07 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: How about lacquer thinner??? That seems to eat through most anything. A solder pot might do the trick as the enamel most likely isn't rated for that high of a temp. Mike>WE0H http://www.geocities.com/we0h/lf.html -----Original Message----- From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of Ashlock,William Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 2:23 PM To: 'rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org' Subject: LF: RE: Re: RE: USA/136 Hi Mal, OK on all your comments below. Just by coincidence I'm trying to strip the enamel insulation on this Decca Litz wire and just 5 min ago I ran across a posting by you back in Sept 12 of 2001 on the subject. You indicate that paint stripper worked for your wire but, unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work for me. I'm guessing my problem is the type of stripper I am using. Can you tell me the brand name of the product you used and/or the ingredients listed on the can? Thanks in advance. Bill A From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28223 invoked from network); 13 May 2002 19:37:12 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2002 19:37:12 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 22337 invoked by uid 10001); 13 May 2002 19:41:04 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2002 19:41:04 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177LZX-00060S-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 13 May 2002 20:33:27 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177LZW-00060N-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 13 May 2002 20:33:26 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 26005 invoked from network); 13 May 2002 19:33:18 -0000 Received: from merimac.us.gases.boc.com (HELO merimac) (204.149.80.4) by server-5.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 13 May 2002 19:33:18 -0000 Received: by EXC_WIL04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 13 May 2002 15:40:58 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Re: RE: USA/136 Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 15:23:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Mal, OK on all your comments below. Just by coincidence I'm trying to strip the enamel insulation on this Decca Litz wire and just 5 min ago I ran across a posting by you back in Sept 12 of 2001 on the subject. You indicate that paint stripper worked for your wire but, unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work for me. I'm guessing my problem is the type of stripper I am using. Can you tell me the brand name of the product you used and/or the ingredients listed on the can? Thanks in advance. Bill A -----Original Message----- From: hamilton mal [mailto:g3kev.ham@virgin.net] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 1:27 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: RE: USA/136 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashlock,William" To: Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 2:56 PM Subject: LF: RE: USA/136 > Mal, > > Before long two way on LF across the pond will be the norm !! > > 73 de Mal/G3KEV > > Yes, this is great! ...........and we will finally get the opportunity to > show you guys over there how a TX loop burried in the woods can perform; or > burn down the whole forest trying :~) Hello Bill I know you are serious and I will be looking West for smoke, because of the big RF amperage in loops it will possibly happen. I am sticking to the vertical that worked so well last year to the USA and Canada for transmitting but will use both the loop and the vertical for best reception and am arranging a space diversity system for optimum signal. My loop is positioned for optimum results from the East/West. I have some high trees and masts at this QTH and am also hoping to increase the loop size to 180 metre perimiter. The bottom element will be at least 10 feet above ground. Recently I have been using the W & G SPM -12 level meter as a receiver with the 25 hz bandwidth plus a DSP audio filter and it is better than any convential receiver. It is so sensitive with my loop and vertical that I have to throttle it well back. I do not think there is any possibility of missing transatlantic signals given even minimal propogation. Good luck and hope to hear/see some signals soon from across the deep blue. 73 de Mal/G3KEV _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28323 invoked from network); 13 May 2002 17:30:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2002 17:30:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 29095 invoked from network); 13 May 2002 17:30:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2002 17:30:36 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177Jan-0005j5-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 13 May 2002 18:26:37 +0100 Received: from mta5-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.45]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177Jam-0005j0-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 13 May 2002 18:26:36 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.233.179]) by mta5-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020513172634.YUIQ9052.mta5-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Mon, 13 May 2002 18:26:34 +0100 Message-ID: <000801c1faa3$7ca536a0$b3e9fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: LF: Re: RE: USA/136 Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 18:27:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashlock,William" To: Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 2:56 PM Subject: LF: RE: USA/136 > Mal, > > Before long two way on LF across the pond will be the norm !! > > 73 de Mal/G3KEV > > Yes, this is great! ...........and we will finally get the opportunity to > show you guys over there how a TX loop burried in the woods can perform; or > burn down the whole forest trying :~) Hello Bill I know you are serious and I will be looking West for smoke, because of the big RF amperage in loops it will possibly happen. I am sticking to the vertical that worked so well last year to the USA and Canada for transmitting but will use both the loop and the vertical for best reception and am arranging a space diversity system for optimum signal. My loop is positioned for optimum results from the East/West. I have some high trees and masts at this QTH and am also hoping to increase the loop size to 180 metre perimiter. The bottom element will be at least 10 feet above ground. Recently I have been using the W & G SPM -12 level meter as a receiver with the 25 hz bandwidth plus a DSP audio filter and it is better than any convential receiver. It is so sensitive with my loop and vertical that I have to throttle it well back. I do not think there is any possibility of missing transatlantic signals given even minimal propogation. Good luck and hope to hear/see some signals soon from across the deep blue. 73 de Mal/G3KEV > > Regards, > Bill A > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered > through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit > http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23348 invoked from network); 13 May 2002 14:15:59 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2002 14:15:59 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 18100 invoked from network); 13 May 2002 14:15:50 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2002 14:15:50 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177GTd-0005HB-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 13 May 2002 15:07:01 +0100 Received: from mail4.messagelabs.com ([212.125.75.12]) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177GTc-0005H6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 13 May 2002 15:07:00 +0100 X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 15925 invoked from network); 13 May 2002 14:06:52 -0000 Received: from merimac.us.gases.boc.com (HELO merimac) (204.149.80.4) by server-17.tower-4.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 13 May 2002 14:06:52 -0000 Received: by EXC_WIL04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 13 May 2002 10:14:34 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ashlock,William" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: USA/136 Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 09:56:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Mal, Before long two way on LF across the pond will be the norm !! 73 de Mal/G3KEV Yes, this is great! ...........and we will finally get the opportunity to show you guys over there how a TX loop burried in the woods can perform; or burn down the whole forest trying :~) Regards, Bill A _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22305 invoked from network); 12 May 2002 14:05:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2002 14:05:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 16473 invoked by uid 10001); 12 May 2002 14:09:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2002 14:09:36 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 176tvh-0002Ub-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 12 May 2002 15:02:29 +0100 Received: from mail6.mx.voyager.net ([216.93.66.205]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 176tvg-0002UW-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 12 May 2002 15:02:28 +0100 Received: from k6500 (d18.as3.mpls.mn.voyager.net [169.207.249.242] (may be forged)) by mail6.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id g4CE2OF49078 for ; Sun, 12 May 2002 10:02:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "WE0H" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: RE: Catapults Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 09:03:43 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: <20020512110326.E5A9D109EC5@xmxpita.excite.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit

I did that once on the US Lowfer reflector. At least we all know your phone number now so we can call you up and say good morning. Hi Hi.

73’s,

Mike>WE0H

http://www.geocities.com/we0h/lf.html

 

-----Original Message-----
From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of john sexton
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 6:03 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: RE: Catapults

 

That was meant to be private. My email systems always seem to do the opposite of what I want!!!!
John, G4CNN

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From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12449 invoked from network); 12 May 2002 12:34:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2002 12:34:44 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 29792 invoked by uid 10001); 12 May 2002 12:38:39 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2002 12:38:39 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 176sVx-0002Jf-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 12 May 2002 13:31:49 +0100 Received: from out016pub.verizon.net ([206.46.170.92] helo=out016.verizon.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 176sVw-0002Ja-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 12 May 2002 13:31:48 +0100 Received: from verizon.net ([141.156.36.120]) by out016.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020512123115.HXWN11739.out016.verizon.net@verizon.net>; Sun, 12 May 2002 07:31:15 -0500 Message-ID: <3CDE6147.CAD28AFA@verizon.net> Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 08:34:15 -0400 From: "Andre Kesteloot" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rsgb_lf_group" Subject: LF: The official FCC announcement Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: The FCC News release on new frequency bands is: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-222294A1.doc 73 Andrй From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17668 invoked from network); 12 May 2002 11:06:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2002 11:06:18 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 14535 invoked by uid 10001); 12 May 2002 11:10:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2002 11:10:13 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 176r8p-00028r-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 12 May 2002 12:03:51 +0100 Received: from nat6.excitenetwork.com ([63.236.75.8] helo=xmxpita.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 176r8o-00028m-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 12 May 2002 12:03:51 +0100 Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id E5A9D109EC5; Sun, 12 May 2002 07:03:26 -0400 (EDT) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Catapults Received: from [62.253.64.8] by xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; Sun, 12 May 2002 07:03:26 EST From: "john sexton" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: computernetworks@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20020512110326.E5A9D109EC5@xmxpita.excite.com> Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 07:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: That was meant to be private. My email systems always seem to do the opposite of what I want!!!!
John, G4CNN

Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web! From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26925 invoked from network); 12 May 2002 10:58:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2002 10:58:24 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 20328 invoked from network); 12 May 2002 10:58:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2002 10:58:17 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 176r0v-00024x-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 12 May 2002 11:55:41 +0100 Received: from nat6.excitenetwork.com ([63.236.75.8] helo=xmxpita.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 176r0t-00024b-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 12 May 2002 11:55:40 +0100 Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id CEF6A109EC5; Sun, 12 May 2002 06:55:05 -0400 (EDT) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Catapults Received: from [62.253.64.8] by xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; Sun, 12 May 2002 06:55:05 EST From: "john sexton" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: computernetworks@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20020512105505.CEF6A109EC5@xmxpita.excite.com> Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 06:55:05 -0400 (EDT) Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Tom,
Yes I had noticed that the mail boxes always seemed empty, but don't understand why. I have yet another email address which you could try: computernetworks@talk21.com.

That is kind of you to offer and I accept with pleasure. Yes it will be necessary to confirm by phone, because I am expecting a hospital appointment during the week for a CT scan, but date not yet confirmed. I have constant backache and now frontache, which they think might be a liver problem. Funnily enough it doesn't hurt when I am climbing trees and having fun with antennas, only when I sit down, hi!
the phone number is 0118 9546277.

The nylon cord could well have been abraded by tree movement, there were a couple of very windy nights at that time. I shall take your advice on tension and also will take up Mike XDV suggestion to include a luggage type bungee cord to give some room for movement.

Look forward to seeing you.
73, John, G4CNN

--- On Sun 05/12, Tom Boucher wrote:
> John G4CNN - I failed twice to send direct e-mails to both .excite and
> .go.
>
> Hello John
>
> I have only just read your message . Perhaps I can bring the
> catapult with me next week and we could give it another try.
>
> When I first put up my very long wire, the thing came down every few
> weeks. It was the wire breaking rather than the polypropylene halyards.
> After a while I realised I had the whole thing too tight so I slackened
> off each halyard a little and it has been up for about a year now.
>
> I am surprised at that nylon cord breaking. I wonder if it snapped
> through being too tight or if it abraided on the tree?
>
> Let's see what the weather is like next week and I will give you a
> 'phone call. Perhaps you could let me have your number again.
>
> 73, Tom
>
>
>

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The most personalized portal on the Web! From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27102 invoked from network); 12 May 2002 09:02:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2002 09:02:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 8444 invoked by uid 10001); 12 May 2002 09:06:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2002 09:06:03 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 176oty-0001pD-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 12 May 2002 09:40:22 +0100 Received: from mta8-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.48]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 176otx-0001p8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 12 May 2002 09:40:21 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.228.135]) by mta8-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020512084020.RSWI25991.mta8-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Sun, 12 May 2002 09:40:20 +0100 Message-ID: <001701c1f990$cd890380$87e4fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Loops Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 09:40:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Since installing my 90 metre perimiter vertical loop some months ago and resonating it on 136 khz, I have observed that it is just as prone to QRN/static as the vertical. In my case there is no advantage using the loop as far as noise is concerned. Being located out in the country I do not suffer from any local environmental noise only the usual summer time static and this is just as bad whether I use the vertical or loop. The loop is vertical and used so far only for RX on LF, direction E/W.
It will be interesting to compare signals from the USA between the Loop and the Vertical.
Using the loop to receive the recent Russian activity worked very well, with signals solid at all times day and night, both aural and visual S6 to S9 and over.
 
Symetrical loop 90 metres perimiter hanging vertically, parallel resonated for 137 khz RX only
 
Vertical antenna used for TX and RX.
 
73 De Mal/G3KEV
 
 
 
 
  
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15095 invoked from network); 12 May 2002 08:47:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2002 08:47:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 482 invoked by uid 10001); 12 May 2002 08:51:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2002 08:51:14 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 176otw-0001p6-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 12 May 2002 09:40:20 +0100 Received: from mta8-svc.business.ntl.com ([62.253.164.48]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 176otv-0001p1-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 12 May 2002 09:40:19 +0100 Received: from l8p8y6 ([62.252.228.135]) by mta8-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020512084013.RSVW25991.mta8-svc.business.ntl.com@l8p8y6> for ; Sun, 12 May 2002 09:40:13 +0100 Message-ID: <001601c1f990$c9eddb60$87e4fc3e@l8p8y6> From: "hamilton mal" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: USA/136 Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 09:06:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Good news for the LF community that the USA will soon be operationg on 136 khz. There should be some excitement later on in the year when propagation is suitable for two way qso's on the band between EU and the USA.
Some sort of bandplan needs to be implemented to avoid EU stations blocking the DX.
For QRS activity ie 1 sec to 60 sec dots if the EU stations stick to the estabished practice of using 135.920 khz plus of minus a few hertz, maybe the USA could use 137.600 area. I am sure others will have some suggestions, but a mixture of PSK, JASON and QRS all on the same frequency would not be helpful.
Before long two way on LF across the pond will be the norm !!
73 de Mal/G3KEV
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: (qmail 22673 invoked from network); 12 May 2002 08:02:49 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2002 08:02:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 270 invoked from network); 12 May 2002 08:02:42 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (193.82.116.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2002 08:02:42 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 176oCg-0001hr-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 12 May 2002 08:55:38 +0100 Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.92]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 176oCf-0001hl-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 12 May 2002 08:55:37 +0100 Received: from telemetry.demon.co.uk ([194.222.19.114]) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 176oCd-000P4e-0Y for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 12 May 2002 08:55:36 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 08:26:54 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Tom Boucher" Subject: LF: Delivery Notification: Delivery has been delayed MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Trial Version 3.05 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: John G4CNN - I failed twice to send direct e-mails to both .excite and .go. Hello John I have only just read your message . Perhaps I can bring the catapult with me next week and we could give it another try. When I first put up my very long wire, the thing came down every few weeks. It was the wire breaking rather than the polypropylene halyards. After a while I realised I had the whole thing too tight so I slackened off each halyard a little and it has been up for about a year now. I am surprised at that nylon cord breaking. I wonder if it snapped through being too tight or if it abraided on the tree? Let's see what the weather is like next week and I will give you a 'phone call. Perhaps you could let me have your number again. 73, Tom From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28895 invoked from network); 10 May 2002 21:59:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2002 21:59:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 26712 invoked from network); 10 May 2002 21:59:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2002 21:59:14 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 176JuK-0006HV-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 11 May 2002 00:34:40 +0100 Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.176]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 176JuJ-0006HQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 11 May 2002 00:34:39 +0100 Received: from host213-122-166-230.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.166.230] helo=presario-1920) by protactinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 176INM-0004aQ-00; Fri, 10 May 2002 22:56:33 +0100 From: "John W Gould" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Cc: "HF. Committee@rsgb. org. uk" Subject: LF: RE: U.S. 136 kHz Allocation Coming? Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 22:57:12 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <004b01c1f84a$1fbaf8e0$09dc9384@ma.ultranet.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Excellent news! John, G3WKL > -----Original Message----- > From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On > Behalf Of John Andrews > Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 18:42 > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Subject: LF: U.S. 136 kHz Allocation Coming? > > > http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2002/05/10/100/?nc=1 > > John Andrews, W1TAG > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22986 invoked from network); 10 May 2002 17:52:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2002 17:52:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 25520 invoked from network); 10 May 2002 17:52:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2002 17:52:07 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 176FuW-0005iN-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 10 May 2002 20:18:36 +0100 Received: from ligarius-fe0.ultra.net ([146.115.8.189]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 176FuU-0005iI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 10 May 2002 20:18:35 +0100 Received: from comrex (209-122-234-43.s2107.apx2.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com [209.122.234.43]) by ligarius-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n26500/mtc.v2) with SMTP id NAA06599 for ; Fri, 10 May 2002 13:40:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <004b01c1f84a$1fbaf8e0$09dc9384@ma.ultranet.com> From: "John Andrews" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020502094245.00a23380@POP3.freeler.nl> <5.1.0.14.0.20020508111932.00b04bc8@gemini.herts.ac.uk> Subject: LF: U.S. 136 kHz Allocation Coming? Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 13:42:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2002/05/10/100/?nc=1 John Andrews, W1TAG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11592 invoked from network); 8 May 2002 13:38:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 8 May 2002 13:38:13 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 20792 invoked from network); 8 May 2002 13:38:01 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 8 May 2002 13:38:01 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 175T06-0000IZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 08 May 2002 16:05:06 +0100 Received: from mrwint.cisco.com ([144.254.98.48] helo=cisco.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 175T05-0000IU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 08 May 2002 16:05:05 +0100 Received: from virgin.net (ams-clip-vpn-dhcp4266.cisco.com [10.50.16.169]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06140 for ; Wed, 8 May 2002 14:26:23 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3CD92761.F1C2665C@virgin.net> Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 14:25:53 +0100 From: "Stewart Bryant" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Roundtable anyone ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Correcting a typo in the club URL Dear LFers - Re a possible LF Round Table this year : > > Andy talbot wrote: > > > Are there any plans for an LF Roundtable this year ? The Crawley Amateur Radio Club have confirmed that it would be happy to host such a meeting at our Clubhouse. The club have a pretty full programme in June and early July leading up to VHF Field Day on 6/7th July so propose an earliest practical date of Sunday 21st July. We suggest a similar format to that of the Microwave Round Tables which circulate round various venues each year in the UK :- Location : Hut18, Tilgate Recreational Centre, Crawley, West Sussex. The centre is close to the southern end of the M23 motorway south of Gatwick airport. Directions by road to the club can be found on our website at : http://www.carc.org.uk Nominal start time : 10-00am, doors open from 09-30 ish 10-00 to 13-00 : Informal session up to lunch at around 13-00hrs. with the morning session being an opportunity to meet old LF friends for an eye-ball and general natter. Tables will available for a bitof 'bring and buy' or for any equipment demonstrations etc. A 360ft LF inverted 'L' antenna can be patched through to the lecture room. We would hope to have an active LF station in operation in the Club shack. 1300 to 14-00 : Lunch break. [Several quite reasonable places close by to eat]. The club coffee bar will be open during the morning. 14-00 to 17-00 : To be arranged but suggest several short technical presentations each of about 20 to 30mins duration - visual aids are available- white boards and OHP plus video player etc. A chaired discussion session is also suggested to discuss recent and future LF activities Close at approx 17-00 More detailed information will be posted later on the reflector and the club website ******************************* Indications of likely attendance would be appreciated ASAP to gauge the degree of support and also suggestions for topics or volunteers for presenting short technical papers. Lets hope we get plenty of attendees. Vy 73, Derek Atter, G3GRO [On behalf of the Crawley Club] From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4430 invoked from network); 8 May 2002 11:41:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 8 May 2002 11:41:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 24812 invoked by uid 10001); 8 May 2002 11:44:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 8 May 2002 11:44:55 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 175REV-00001U-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 08 May 2002 14:11:51 +0100 Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.93]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 175REU-00001P-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 08 May 2002 14:11:50 +0100 Received: from host213-1-151-136.btinternet.com ([213.1.151.136] helo=j1r9b7) by rhenium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 175PhX-0002Mv-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 08 May 2002 12:33:43 +0100 Message-ID: <002d01c1f684$1ef87580$889701d5@j1r9b7> From: "Derek Atter" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <01C1E9DE.44C383C0.g4jnt@thersgb.net> <3CC44316.17EC58A0@virgin.net> <3CCED95F.5C42C3D0@virgin.net> Subject: Re: LF: Roundtable anyone ? Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 12:32:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LFers - Re a possible LF Round Table this year : > > Andy talbot wrote: > > > Are there any plans for an LF Roundtable this year ? The Crawley Amateur Radio Club have confirmed that it would be happy to host such a meeting at our Clubhouse. The club have a pretty full programme in June and early July leading up to VHF Field Day on 6/7th July so propose an earliest practical date of Sunday 21st July. We suggest a similar format to that of the Microwave Round Tables which circulate round various venues each year in the UK :- Location : Hut18, Tilgate Recreational Centre, Crawley, West Sussex. The centre is close to the southern end of the M23 motorway south of Gatwick airport. Directions by road to the club can be found on our website at : www.http.carc.org Nominal start time : 10-00am, doors open from 09-30 ish 10-00 to 13-00 : Informal session up to lunch at around 13-00hrs.with the morning session being an opportunity to meet old LF friends for an eye-ball and general natter. Tables will available for a bit of 'bring and buy' or for any equipment demonstrations etc. A 360ft LF inverted 'L' antenna can be patched through to the lecture room. We would hope to have an active LF station in operation in the Club shack. 1300 to 14-00 : Lunch break. [ Several quite reasonable places close by to eat] The club coffee bar will be open during the morning. 14-00 to 17-00 : To be arranged but suggest several short technical presentations each of about 20 to 30mins duration - visual aids are available- white boards and OHP plus video player etc. A chaired discussion session is also suggested to discuss recent and future LF activities Close at approx 17-00 More detailed information will be posted later on the reflector and the club website ******************************* Indications of likely attendance would be appreciated ASAP to gauge the degree of support and also suggestions for topics or volunteers for presenting short technical papers. Lets hope we get plenty of attendees. Vy 73, Derek Atter, G3GRO [On behalf of the Crawley Club] From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8102 invoked from network); 8 May 2002 11:35:58 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 8 May 2002 11:35:58 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 21222 invoked by uid 10001); 8 May 2002 11:39:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 8 May 2002 11:39:48 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 175R5f-0008WV-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 08 May 2002 14:02:43 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 175R5e-0008WQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 08 May 2002 14:02:42 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 175PYj-0001y2-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 08 May 2002 12:24:37 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 175PYh-0001ID-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 08 May 2002 12:24:35 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020508111932.00b04bc8@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 12:18:04 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: Re: LF: RYCOM-meter In-reply-to: <173gH1-1aLBQGC@fwd08.sul.t-online.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020502094245.00a23380@POP3.freeler.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 18:51 03/05/2002 +0200, you wrote: >My slide rule says: 2 dBm with 600 ohms = 0.98 V Ueff >and RMS (roots mean square) nevertheless Ueff means or? I have a Rycom 3136 level meter, with similar scales. There are 3 input impedance settings - 600, 125, 75 ohms. The dBm scale measures the input power, with 0dBm = 1mW. It always reads correct, whatever impedance is selected - so with the same voltage across the input terminals, changing Rin from 600 to 75 ohms increases the reading by 10log(600/75) = 9dB, because more power is delivered to the low impedance load for the same input voltage. It does this trick by having an input transformer with different taps for the different impedances. However, this also means the voltage scales are only scaled correctly when 600 ohm Rin is selected - it reads about 7dB high on 125 ohms, and 9dB high on 75ohms. In addition, changing the input impedance will usually change the voltage delivered by the source, unless the source impedance is very low, or the "unterminated input" setting is used. The W&G meters I have allow you to select dBm or dBu. dBu is the voltage at the input with 0dBu defined as 0.775V (=1mW into 600 ohms), irrespective of the input impedance. So 0dBuV is -117.8dBu, or in 75ohms -108.8dBm. So I sometimes get totally confused! If in doubt, always use the dBm measurement, and work out from that and the selected input impedance what the voltage is. If you want to measure voltage directly, use the 600 ohm input, and connect a resistor in parallel to get the right input impedance if necessary. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25735 invoked from network); 7 May 2002 21:20:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2002 21:20:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 9080 invoked by uid 10001); 7 May 2002 21:24:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2002 21:24:31 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 175DpL-0006r6-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 23:52:59 +0100 Received: from www.gardaol.com ([195.223.232.51] helo=netregister.it ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 175DpK-0006r1-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 23:52:58 +0100 Received: from ik2dedlibero (brescia03.phoenix.it [213.82.97.67]) by netregister.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g47LEoM31001 for ; Tue, 7 May 2002 23:14:51 +0200 Message-ID: <002901c1df85$8a24da80$436152d5@it> From: "Giulio Scaroni" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020507131706.00a98898@gemini.herts.ac.uk> Subject: LF: Re: RK2FWA and others Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 07:15:16 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Jim wrote: > Dear LF Group, ............ > I did have a complete 2 way CW QSO with IK2DED, who has been putting an > excellent signal into the south of England after dark lately, usually about > 569. > > Cheers, Jim Moritz > 73 de M0BMU Yes Jim at the end we have success with also aural CW, you was here 539, was little hard to receive you, used here DBM converter to IC 737, 250 Hz narrow cw filter, and and Timewave 599 zx DSP with a bandwidht of 25 hz. So nice to hear you also in CW!!!!!! My TX is the usual 3 x irf 640, about 100 W out. But your signal is lower than received in past from G4KEV and G3AQC, they were 559, very clear in the morning, may be that they have more ERP. So Jim tnx for try again in CW!! 73 to all de IK2DED. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26159 invoked from network); 7 May 2002 20:31:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2002 20:31:26 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 15045 invoked by uid 10001); 7 May 2002 20:35:14 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2002 20:35:14 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 175CxT-0006jF-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 22:57:19 +0100 Received: from cmailenv3.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.55]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 175CxS-0006jA-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 22:57:18 +0100 Received: from [62.21.148.234] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV3.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 175BQT-0005hN-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 20:19:10 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020507222033.009e96e0@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 22:25:14 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: Re: LF: pictures? In-reply-to: <001001c1f5a3$a090c0c0$1700a8c0@home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Dave, G3YXM, wrote:

Dear all.
 
Has anyone got any interesting pictures of your new antennas, transmitters, /P operation or similar?
Also simple little circuits for LF?
I need some for the next LF column in the RadCom to cheer up a page of text!
 
There is quite a choice at the picture gallery of your own web site!

73. Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8907 invoked from network); 7 May 2002 17:54:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2002 17:54:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 726 invoked from network); 7 May 2002 17:54:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2002 17:54:08 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 175AZ7-0006TU-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 20:24:01 +0100 Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.176]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 175AZ6-0006TL-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 20:24:00 +0100 Received: from host217-34-94-228.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([217.34.94.228] helo=dellboy) by protactinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 175927-0003e4-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 18:45:51 +0100 Message-ID: <007101c1f5ef$050224e0$1700a8c0@home> From: "Dave Pick" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <001001c1f5a3$a090c0c0$1700a8c0@home> <001401c1f5cf$5f348f40$4a3a073e@dave> Subject: LF: Re: Re: pictures? Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 18:45:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Now if one of these chaps were to take half-a-kilometre of wire, a car battery, an LF coil and a LF TX up a mountain; I'd be very impressed! Dave G3YXM. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Sergeant" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 11:27 AM Subject: LF: Re: pictures? > G3YXM wrote: > >I need some for the next LF column in the RadCom to cheer up a page of text! > > Nothing whatsoever to do with 136, but you might find the picture of GW4ALG bicycle > portable at http://www.sota.org.uk/ of interest. > > Dave G3YMC > dsergeant@iee.org > dsergeant@btinternet.com > http://www.dsergeant.btinternet.co.uk > > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8575 invoked from network); 7 May 2002 15:58:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2002 15:58:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 29910 invoked by uid 10001); 7 May 2002 16:02:50 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2002 16:02:50 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1758q1-0006Ek-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 18:33:21 +0100 Received: from nort.infotecstt.ru ([80.68.3.204] helo=relay.dx.ru) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1758py-0006Ee-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 18:33:19 +0100 Received: from ed.dx (ed.dx [10.0.1.11]) by relay.dx.ru (8.9.3-PM01/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13547 for ; Tue, 7 May 2002 19:55:09 +0400 (MSD) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 19:53:35 +0400 From: "Ed Lesnichy" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.35) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Organization: Ed Lesnichy X-Priority: 3 Message-ID: <17828.020507@dx.ru> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RK2FWA setup In-reply-to: <174qjD-0aLkqOC@fwd06.sul.t-online.com> References: <174qjD-0aLkqOC@fwd06.sul.t-online.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello LF Group & Uwe! Tuesday, May 07, 2002, 2:13:07 AM, you wrote: j> Ed, would you pse tell us the working conditions of RK2FWA ? j> I did not ask him because there were so many other stations calling him. j> Uwe/dj8wx RK2FWA LF crew - Vlad UA2FF & Alexej RN2FA QTH-loc - KO04FT They used the lamp PA, but could not estimate output power LF transverter by RN2FA TX/RX Ant --------------------------\ /| | | --\ \ / |tower | | ---\ \ / |H=20m |H=30m |H=40m -----\ \ TX o/ | | | ---- <- H=8m coil | | | |<---------- 150m---------------->|<----------200m---------> Cu wire diam 2mm abt 350m long 73! Ed RU6LA mailto:ed@dx.ru From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15481 invoked from network); 7 May 2002 14:02:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2002 14:02:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 15569 invoked by uid 10001); 7 May 2002 14:06:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2002 14:06:12 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17571c-0005vZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 16:37:12 +0100 Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.176]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17571b-0005vU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 16:37:11 +0100 Received: from host62-7-58-74.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.7.58.74] helo=dave) by protactinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 1755Uf-0002gr-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 14:59:06 +0100 Message-ID: <001401c1f5cf$5f348f40$4a3a073e@dave> From: "Dave Sergeant" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <001001c1f5a3$a090c0c0$1700a8c0@home> Subject: LF: Re: pictures? Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 11:27:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: G3YXM wrote: >I need some for the next LF column in the RadCom to cheer up a page of text! Nothing whatsoever to do with 136, but you might find the picture of GW4ALG bicycle portable at http://www.sota.org.uk/ of interest. Dave G3YMC dsergeant@iee.org dsergeant@btinternet.com http://www.dsergeant.btinternet.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9674 invoked from network); 7 May 2002 12:58:38 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2002 12:58:38 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 1149 invoked from network); 7 May 2002 12:58:30 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2002 12:58:30 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17560v-0005n4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 15:32:25 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17560u-0005mz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 15:32:24 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 1754Tw-0007ni-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 13:54:16 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1754Tv-0002CB-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 13:54:15 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020507131706.00a98898@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 13:47:28 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: LF: RK2FWA and others MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF Group, I heard RK2FWA on Sunday night at about 2110 at RST 559, later fading down to nothing. I tried calling them, as did a number of others, but no joy - QRN was heavy at the time. The signal was strong enough for me to wonder whether my leg was being pulled for a time, so I guess this must be another "big antenna" station. I also copied QRSS from YO2IS on Friday night - only "M" copy, but QRN was also heavy then, so would have been a good signal under quieter conditions. Again, no QSO though. I did have a complete 2 way CW QSO with IK2DED, who has been putting an excellent signal into the south of England after dark lately, usually about 569. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24007 invoked from network); 7 May 2002 09:54:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2002 09:54:45 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 21236 invoked from network); 7 May 2002 09:54:36 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2002 09:54:36 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17532K-0005QJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 12:21:40 +0100 Received: from siaag1ac.compuserve.com ([149.174.40.5]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17532J-0005QD-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 12:21:39 +0100 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by siaag1ac.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.12) id FAA28043 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 7 May 2002 05:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 05:42:52 -0400 From: "Holger 'Geri' Kinzel, DK8KW" Subject: LF: pictures? To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: <200205070542_MC3-FCE6-858E@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello LF-enthusiasts, >Dear all. >Has anyone got any interesting pictures of your new antennas, transmitters, /P operation or similar? >Also simple little circuits for LF? >I need some for the next LF column in the RadCom to cheer up a page of text! >Thanks in advance. >Dave Pick >G3YXM. Dave, I hope you allow me to join you in your search for pictures ... I write a similar column (VLF-/LF-QTC) each month in the German magazine "FUNKAMATEUR" ... ;-) Thanks and vy 73 Geri, DK8KW (W1KW) From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2632 invoked from network); 7 May 2002 09:09:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2002 09:09:03 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 9564 invoked by uid 10001); 7 May 2002 09:12:50 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2002 09:12:50 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1752Ic-0005Im-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 11:34:26 +0100 Received: from cmailenv2.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.54]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1752IZ-0005Ih-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 11:34:24 +0100 Received: from [62.21.150.19] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV2.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1750la-0001Ne-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 08:56:15 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020507105531.00a32c70@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:02:10 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: PA0LQ mains QRM noise blanker and 20 Hz audiofilter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
To All from PA0SE

In case you missed the earlier announcement: the description and circuit diagram of the PA0LQ mains QRM noise blanker and 30 Hz wide audio filter can be found at the web site of Dave, G3YXM:

http://www.wireless.org.uk

73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24271 invoked from network); 7 May 2002 09:04:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2002 09:04:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 18670 invoked from network); 7 May 2002 09:04:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2002 09:04:22 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17528m-0005Hn-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 11:24:16 +0100 Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.93]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17528k-0005Hi-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 11:24:15 +0100 Received: from host217-34-68-102.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([217.34.68.102] helo=dellboy) by rhenium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 1750bk-0005C5-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 09:46:04 +0100 Message-ID: <001001c1f5a3$a090c0c0$1700a8c0@home> From: "Dave Pick" To: "LF Group" Subject: LF: pictures? Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 09:46:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Dear all.
 
Has anyone got any interesting pictures of your new antennas, transmitters, /P operation or similar?
Also simple little circuits for LF?
I need some for the next LF column in the RadCom to cheer up a page of text!
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Dave Pick
G3YXM.
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11558 invoked from network); 6 May 2002 22:20:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 6 May 2002 22:20:25 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 28519 invoked from network); 6 May 2002 22:20:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 6 May 2002 22:20:20 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 174sGP-0004Fu-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 00:51:29 +0100 Received: from mailout11.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.85]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 174sGO-0004Fp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 07 May 2002 00:51:28 +0100 Received: from fwd06.sul.t-online.de by mailout11.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 174qjS-0006a8-05; Tue, 07 May 2002 00:13:22 +0200 Received: from (0482183881-0001@[62.156.6.215]) by fwd06.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 174qjD-0aLkqOC; Tue, 7 May 2002 00:13:07 +0200 From: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <20020506105017.4287F3D4B@xmxpita.excite.com> Subject: Re: Re[2]: LF: May 2-4 KN97LN Activity X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 00:13:07 +0200 Message-ID: <174qjD-0aLkqOC@fwd06.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0482183881-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: john sexton schrieb: > .................. > For our intended activity during 2-4 May, several teams and individual > Russian Hams had prepared to join forces on LF, but the only success came > from RK2FWA. RK2FWA is the call sign of a very well known contest club from > Kaliningrad (UA2 is a separate country in DXCC). RW2F takes part in the > contests. > > The boys from RK2FWA (UA2FF, RN2FA) are some of the first to start to use LF > in Russia during 2000. ............. Hi Ed, John es all, I worked RK2FWA in CW some days ago. operator was Vlad. he was 599 (honestly). he gave me 559. distance 730km. my pwr 25W HF out. Vlad said it was the first DL contact. RK2FWA is daily ZOA calling CQ. every time 599. many stations from DL and G do call him. but he does not hear anything. Ed, would you pse tell us the working conditions of RK2FWA ? I did not ask him because there were so many other stations calling him. regards Uwe/dj8wx From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12576 invoked from network); 6 May 2002 11:03:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 6 May 2002 11:03:48 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 11066 invoked from network); 6 May 2002 11:03:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 6 May 2002 11:03:41 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 174hbv-00036t-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 06 May 2002 13:28:59 +0100 Received: from nat7.excitenetwork.com ([63.236.75.9] helo=xmxpita.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 174hbt-00036o-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 06 May 2002 13:28:57 +0100 Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id 4287F3D4B; Mon, 6 May 2002 06:50:17 -0400 (EDT) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re[2]: LF: May 2-4 KN97LN Activity Received: from [62.253.64.8] by xprdmailfe10.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; Mon, 06 May 2002 06:50:17 EST From: "john sexton" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: computernetworks@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20020506105017.4287F3D4B@xmxpita.excite.com> Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 06:50:17 -0400 (EDT) Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: From the 2 - 4 May, the RU6LWZ team made their last LF activity field trials of the 2001-2 season.

At the end of April the weather in this region became very favourable for agricultural work and on the 30th the fields we had been using were fully occupied by farming activities.

On the 2nd of May we had to take down our Big vertical and that's why we weren't transmitting, on the 2nd. However instead we managed to mount some HF antennas on the summit of "Machty" (a local hill/mountain? Translator).
We expect to be able to re-start our activities on LF around the end of September.

I hope that the summer break on LF will allow us to better prepare and that the 2002-03 season will be more successful as measured by the number of QSOs achieved including new ones.

For our intended activity during 2-4 May, several teams and individual Russian Hams had prepared to join forces on LF, but the only success came from RK2FWA. RK2FWA is the call sign of a very well known contest club from Kaliningrad (UA2 is a separate country in DXCC). RW2F takes part in the contests.

The boys from RK2FWA (UA2FF, RN2FA) are some of the first to start to use LF in Russia during 2000.

Thanks to all for support and help in mastering LF and for not being over critical of our lack of much success so far.

We still need to better understand the sources of interference at our QTH, but we have come to realise that we don't live in the best place for LF with very powerful sources of QRM on our doorstep which come from many different directions.

Question: Does anyone use an electromechanical filter on LF between the pre-selector and the Rx?
We got hold of an experimental filter with a bandwidth of 2.1 kHz at the 3dB level and a centre frequency of 136.75 kHz.
Reduction outside the band is more than 70 dB. We inserted it after a high quality third order Elliptic Band-pass filter. First impressions are hopeful, but there are uncertainties about its use with ARGO at the edge of the band. Does anyone have experimental experience with the use of such filters on LF?

I realise that a crystal filter would most probably be better, but so far we have only managed to build an elecromechanical filter.

Until we meet again on LF for the 2002-03 season.
73! Ed RU6LA mailto:ed@dx.ru


--- On Mon 05/06, Ed Lesnichy wrote:
> Здравствуй Джон!
> Просьба перевести и отослать в LF Group мой msg:
>
> Команда RU6LWZ предприняла попытку 2-4 мая провести последнюю в сезоне
> 2001-02 активность на LF.
> С конца апреля установилась благоприятная погода для сельскохозяйственных
> работ и с 30 апреля начались активные агроработы на используемых
> нами полях.
> Нам пришлось 2 мая демонтировать Big vertical, поэтому нашего сигнала
> не было на LF. Но нам удалось начать монтаж HF антенн на верху мачты.
> Предположительно мы можем возобновить нашу активность на LF в конце
> сентября.
> Надеюсь, летний перерыв на LF позволит нам лучше подготовиться и сезон
> 2002-03 будет для нас более успешным по количеству QSO и New One.
> К нашей намечавшейся активности 2-4 мая были готовы попробовать свои
> силы на LF сразу несколько команд и HAMs в России, но успех
> сопутствовал
> пока только RK2FWA. RK2FWA - это позывной очень известного contest-клуба
> из Калининграда (UA2 - отдельная страна по DXCC). В соревнованиях
> используют RW2F.
> Ребята из RK2FWA (UA2FF,RN2FA) одни из первых в России начинали осваивать
> длинные волны в 2000 году.
>
> Спасибо всем за поддержку и помощь в освоении LF и не очень строгие
> претензии к нашей не очень удачной работе на LF.
> Нам еще необходимо лучше изучить помехи в нашем QTH. Но уже сейчас нам
> понятно, что мы живем не в лучшем для LF QTH из-за обилия мощных
> помех, а главное приходящих с различных направлений.
>
> И вопрос: использовал ли кто из HAMs на LF электромеханические (ЭМФ)
> фильтры после Pre-selector и перед RX ? Нам сделали такой
> экспериментальный
> фильтр с полосой 2,1 kHz по уровню 3dB и средней частотой 136,75 kHz.
> Затухание вне полосы более 70 dB. Мы поставили его после High-quality
> 3-order Eliptic Band-pass filter. Первые впечатления обнадеживают, но
> есть вопросы при его применении с ARGO в крайних участках диапазона. У
> кого есть опыт экспериментов с такими фильтрами на LF?
> Понимаю, что кварцевый фильтр видимо лучше, но пока удалось сделать
> только электромеханический.
>
> До встречи на LF в сезоне 2002-03!
>
> 73! Ed RU6LA mailto:ed@dx.ru
>
>
>

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The most personalized portal on the Web! From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11778 invoked from network); 4 May 2002 21:57:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 4 May 2002 21:57:51 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 8899 invoked from network); 4 May 2002 21:57:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 4 May 2002 21:57:44 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1748to-0007t6-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 05 May 2002 00:25:08 +0100 Received: from mailout09.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.84]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1748tn-0007t1-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 05 May 2002 00:25:07 +0100 Received: from fwd05.sul.t-online.de by mailout09.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1747Mr-00036A-02; Sat, 04 May 2002 23:47:01 +0200 Received: from (0482183881-0001@[62.227.109.23]) by fwd05.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1747Mn-1zX5DUC; Sat, 4 May 2002 23:46:57 +0200 From: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <20020503170711.0AFEBF65A@xmxpita.excite.com> Subject: LF: test X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 23:46:57 +0200 Message-ID: <1747Mn-1zX5DUC@fwd05.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0482183881-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: test Uwe/dj8wx From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15655 invoked from network); 3 May 2002 17:13:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marstons.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.223) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 3 May 2002 17:13:47 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 25501 invoked by uid 10001); 3 May 2002 17:17:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by marstons.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 3 May 2002 17:17:40 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 173i3y-0004mk-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 03 May 2002 19:45:50 +0100 Received: from nat8.excitenetwork.com ([63.236.75.10] helo=xmxpita.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 173i3x-0004mb-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 03 May 2002 19:45:49 +0100 Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id 0AFEBF65A; Fri, 3 May 2002 13:07:11 -0400 (EDT) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: May 2-4 KN97LN Activity Received: from [62.253.64.8] by xprdmailfe3.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; Fri, 03 May 2002 13:07:11 EST From: "john sexton" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: computernetworks@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20020503170711.0AFEBF65A@xmxpita.excite.com> Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 13:07:11 -0400 (EDT) Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Jim & All,
I don't know whether this station is the one mentioned by Ed, but RK2FWA has been active on 136.5 in normal to fast (for LF) CW since mid afternoon today. So far I have only heard D stations calling him.
He is 559 with me, but DJ8WX gave him 599.
The call sign is not one of those previously listed by Ed.
73, John, G4CNN


--- On Fri 04/26, Ed Lesnichy wrote:
> Hello LF Group!
>
> May 2, 3, 4 we will be active on LF from Machta (KN97LN) -
> mainly at night
> My Sunset 16:40z, Sunrise 2:10z
>
> I continue to have the big QRM from:
> Alfa(Omega) (azim~196 degr, fq ~12kHz, QRB~200km, pwr~300KW)
> Chajka(Loran) (azim~240 degr, fq~100kHz, QRB~450km, pwr~800KW)
> Radio Chechnya(AM) / Radio Rossii(AM) -
> (azim~168 degr, fq~170/1190kHz, QRB~280km, pwr~150KW/2MW)
>
> Direction to Europe - from 340 degr(OH) to 290 (I)
>
> Loops's I can not cancel all at once
> The best signal/noise gives beverage (probably I will make 2km) +
> hi-order band-pass + adjustable(5...30dB) amplifier
>
> Any idea abt my new RX antenna or RX configuration??
>
> 73! Ed RU6LA mailto:ed@dx.ru
>
>
>
>

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From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 671 invoked from network); 3 May 2002 17:02:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 3 May 2002 17:02:16 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 25766 invoked from network); 3 May 2002 17:02:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 3 May 2002 17:02:09 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 173hoH-0004kb-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 03 May 2002 19:29:37 +0100 Received: from mailout09.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.84]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 173hoG-0004kW-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 03 May 2002 19:29:36 +0100 Received: from fwd08.sul.t-online.de by mailout09.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 173gHH-0000SN-0I; Fri, 03 May 2002 18:51:27 +0200 Received: from (0482183881-0001@[62.156.6.136]) by fwd08.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 173gH1-1aLBQGC; Fri, 3 May 2002 18:51:11 +0200 From: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020502094245.00a23380@POP3.freeler.nl> Subject: LF: RYCOM-meter X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 18:51:11 +0200 Message-ID: <173gH1-1aLBQGC@fwd08.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0482183881-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, I use the signal of DCF39 in order to test my antennas. I read off the values from the METER. of a RYCOM receiver. So far only the DB scale of the instrument interested me. Among them are two further scales, which indicate RMS VOLTS. Ranges: DECIBELS -20 - +2 RMS VOLTS 0 - 10 RMS VOLTS 0 - 3 Entry right above: 1MW 600 ohms The values indicated for DCF39: +2 DECIBEL, 9.8 RMS VOLTS and >3 RMS VOLTS (attenuator in position -30dB). My slide rule says: 2 dBm with 600 ohms = 0.98 V Ueff and RMS (roots mean square) nevertheless Ueff means or? (setting instead of dBm dBuV comes on 1,6uV. Completely beside it.) How does it come to that "potential" difference ? regards Uwe/dj8wx From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13799 invoked from network); 3 May 2002 11:02:03 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 3 May 2002 11:02:03 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 26066 invoked from network); 3 May 2002 11:01:58 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 3 May 2002 11:01:58 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 173cCy-00044X-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 03 May 2002 13:30:44 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 173cCx-00044S-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 03 May 2002 13:30:43 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 173ag1-0004n6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 03 May 2002 11:52:37 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 173ag0-0002Jb-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 03 May 2002 11:52:36 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503113250.00a84e50@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 11:46:17 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: LF: Re: May 2-4 KN97LN Activity In-reply-to: <11498.020426@dx.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Ed, LF group, I left the RX on last night, looking around 137.7kHz for signals from RU6LWZ/RU6LA, but saw nothing - will the operation from Machta be going ahead as planned this weekend? Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11818 invoked from network); 2 May 2002 12:50:47 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 2 May 2002 12:50:47 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 3921 invoked from network); 2 May 2002 09:57:39 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 2 May 2002 09:57:39 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 173Edc-0001AN-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 May 2002 12:20:40 +0100 Received: from mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.50]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 173Edb-0001AI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 May 2002 12:20:39 +0100 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail2.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.12.1/8.12.1) with SMTP id g429g2sv113528 for ; Thu, 2 May 2002 11:42:03 +0200 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20020502103639.2fe7b90a@pb623250.kuleuven.be> X-Sender: pb623250@pb623250.kuleuven.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:36:39 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: LF: QRS version 3.17 In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20020502094245.00a23380@POP3.freeler.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear, I just released a new version of QRS (3.17). The main change is that I got a bug cured that caused some problems when using QRS for longterm beaconing. Further a sidetone problem and a conflict between synchronisation and repeat mode are cured. I need to thank Jim, M0BMU, for his help in finding the bug that screwed up timing only after many hours (even days), one can imagine how time consuming debugging can be ... Version 3.17 was send to the traditional download places of QRS (LWCA, G3YXM, NL9222) and should be avialable from there shortly. The impatient (or download troubled) can request a copy of the ZIP file by direct mail to me. 73, Rik ON7YD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21220 invoked from network); 2 May 2002 07:44:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 2 May 2002 07:44:30 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 19056 invoked from network); 2 May 2002 07:44:26 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 2 May 2002 07:44:26 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 173Chu-0000uz-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 May 2002 10:16:58 +0100 Received: from cmailenv2.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.54]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 173Cht-0000uu-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 May 2002 10:16:57 +0100 Received: from [62.21.147.70] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV2.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 173BAx-0005rM-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 May 2002 07:38:51 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020502094245.00a23380@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 09:43:06 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: Fwd: Re: PA0LQ audio filter & mains QRM noise blanker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
X-From_: g3yxm@wireless.org.uk Wed May 01 20:12:23 2002
Envelope-to: d.w.rollema@freeler.nl
From: "Dave Pick" <g3yxm@wireless.org.uk>
To: "Dick Rollema" <d.w.rollema@freeler.nl>
Subject: Re: PA0LQ audio filter & mains QRM noise blanker
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 20:33:45 +0100
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700

Thanks Dick, and Harry!
 
I've put it on the web-site.
 
73
Dave Pick
G3YXM.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Rollema
To: LF.RadCom List Member
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:30 PM
Subject: PA0LQ audio filter & mains QRM noise blanker

Perhaps you are receiving the following message for the second time. The server reported that the message could not be send because one of the addresses was faulty (due to a typo). I'm not sure whether this means that the message is withheld in total.

 ear Old Man,

Please find attached the description and circuit diagram of the PA0LQ 30 Hz wide non-ringing audio filter and mains QRM noise blanker.

Contrary to what I said in my announcement on the Reflector the device does not combat noise from fluorescent tubes. My aging memory failed me there, for which I apologize.

73, Dick, PA0SE
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13914 invoked from network); 2 May 2002 07:27:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 2 May 2002 07:27:15 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 5554 invoked from network); 2 May 2002 07:27:11 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 2 May 2002 07:27:11 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 173CJg-0000qQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 May 2002 09:51:56 +0100 Received: from gate3.oss.akzonobel.nl ([192.87.3.7]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 173CJf-0000qL-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 May 2002 09:51:55 +0100 Received: (from fwmaster@localhost) by gate3.oss.akzonobel.nl (8.9.1a/8.6.12) id JAA12712 for ; Thu, 2 May 2002 09:13:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by gate3.oss.akzonobel.nl via smap (V1.3) id sma003007; Thu, 2 May 02 09:08:53 +0200 Received: by triton.oss.intra with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 2 May 2002 09:08:53 +0200 Message-ID: <639D20177889D41198A600508BAD3CA103742013@capella3.oss.akzonobel.nl> From: "Laken, W.H.P.A. van der \(Wil\)" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Book search Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 09:08:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Doc, I mostly use the following link: http://www.alibris.com/ Regards, Wil (PA0BWL) -----Original Message----- From: Dr. Tom Gruis [mailto:donnatom@netins.net] Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 4:10 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Book search I apologize if this is offensive because it is off subject - but - here goes anyway. My rationale is that this list covers many nations and probably many others interested in books, history, and/or radio. There are two books that I have been searching for with no success: 1. "Instruments of Darkness" by Price which has to do with navigation radio beams during the late 1930s and through WW-II. 2. "The Liberandos" by Wagner which has to do with the B-24 "Liberator" bombers during WW-II. If anyone has an insight into where to find these, please let me know back channel. Fraternally - or 73 - as appropriate! Doc. KШHTF amateur radio Iowa, USA, Grid Square EN31do -------------------------------------------------------------------- This message, including attached files, may contain confidential information and is intended only for the use by the individual and/or the entity to which it is addressed. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of, or copying of the information contained herein is not allowed and may lead to irreparable harm and damage for which you may be held liable. If you receive this message in error or if it is intended for someone else please notify the sender by returning this e-mail immediately and delete the message. -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 37 invoked from network); 2 May 2002 05:34:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx.last.plus.net) (212.159.3.230) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 2 May 2002 05:34:55 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 24838 invoked from network); 2 May 2002 02:00:53 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (212.172.148.70) by mx.last.plus.net with SMTP; 2 May 2002 02:00:53 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1737ZY-0000GF-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 May 2002 04:48:00 +0100 Received: from smtp.netins.net ([167.142.225.203] helo=cgpf2.cgp.netins.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1737ZX-0000GA-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 May 2002 04:47:59 +0100 Received: from [167.142.32.126] (HELO netins.net) by cgpf2.cgp.netins.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.9) with ESMTP id 52293060; Wed, 01 May 2002 21:09:51 -0500 Message-ID: <3CD09FED.57FED1DC@netins.net> Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 21:09:49 -0500 From: "Dr. Tom Gruis" Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=D8HTF_and_www.gruis.org_?= X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Book search References: <3CD070F1.881C9550@usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I apologize if this is offensive because it is off subject  but  here goes anyway. My rationale is that this list covers many nations and probably many others interested in books, history, and/or radio. There are two books that I have been searching for with no success: 1. Instruments of Darkness by Price which has to do with navigation radio beams during the late 1930s and through WW-II. 2. The Liberandos by Wagner which has to do with the B-24 Liberator bombers during WW-II. If anyone has an insight into where to find these, please let me know back channel. Fraternally  or 73  as appropriate! Doc. KШHTF amateur radio Iowa, USA, Grid Square EN31do From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21768 invoked from network); 2 May 2002 03:35:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 2 May 2002 03:35:41 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 392 invoked from network); 2 May 2002 03:35:37 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 2 May 2002 03:35:37 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1738s0-0000TQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 May 2002 06:11:08 +0100 Received: from imo-m05.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.8]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1738rz-0000TL-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 May 2002 06:11:07 +0100 Received: from Carmelink@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.21.1d5536fc (15864) for ; Wed, 1 May 2002 23:32:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netscape.com (mow-d05.webmail.aol.com [205.188.138.69]) by air-id06.mx.aol.com (v84.14) with ESMTP id MAILINID63-0501233220; Wed, 01 May 2002 23:32:20 -0400 Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 23:33:21 -0400 From: carmelink@aol.com To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re LF: Book search Message-ID: <7564DB64.6E7B1EB5.02E350C6@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Tom, "Instruments of Darkness" (not to be confused with the Dr. Who novel of the same name, or the book on English witches!) is available from a website in Virginia: http://www.aeroplanebooks.com/ww2_pg7.htm Mike W2AG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11454 invoked from network); 2 May 2002 03:04:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx.last.plus.net) (212.159.3.230) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 2 May 2002 03:04:43 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 1804 invoked from network); 1 May 2002 22:48:48 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (212.172.148.70) by mx.last.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2002 22:48:48 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1734Rt-0008Lx-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 May 2002 01:27:53 +0100 Received: from e21.nc.us.ibm.com ([32.97.136.227]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1734Rs-0008Ls-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 May 2002 01:27:52 +0100 Received: from southrelay01.raleigh.ibm.com (southrelay01.raleigh.us.ibm.com [9.37.3.208]) by e21.nc.us.ibm.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g41Mnj64028452 for ; Wed, 1 May 2002 18:49:45 -0400 Received: from usa.net (ss10.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.76]) by southrelay01.raleigh.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/NCO/VER6.1) with ESMTP id g41MnhU246996 for ; Wed, 1 May 2002 18:49:43 -0400 Message-ID: <3CD070F1.881C9550@usa.net> Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 00:49:21 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "LF Mailing List" Subject: LF: How to solder Litz wire Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Just found this on another list.... haven't tried it myself (yet), but maybe it is of interest for someone. 73 Alberto I2PHD ----------------------------- > I did break a Litz wire once and tried the aspirin-tablet-as-flux trick > and it worked like a charm. For Litz wire to repair correctly, I think > you have to connect as many strands as possible. To use aspirin, take > the hot iron to the tablet and melt a lot of it and transfer it quickly > to the joint to be soldered. The aspirin dissolves the insulation so > you don't have to worry about trying to strip wire as fine as the hair > on a gnat's eyebrow. > > This amazing cure supplied by someone on the r-390 list. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15276 invoked from network); 2 May 2002 02:52:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 2 May 2002 02:52:53 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 28965 invoked from network); 2 May 2002 02:52:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 2 May 2002 02:52:51 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1738Bs-0000N2-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 May 2002 05:27:36 +0100 Received: from tomts12.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.56] helo=tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1738Br-0000Mx-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 May 2002 05:27:35 +0100 Received: from server1.sympatico.ca ([209.226.189.76]) by tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020502024927.RMFG29810.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@server1.sympatico.ca> for ; Wed, 1 May 2002 22:49:27 -0400 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020501224529.033b19a0@POP2.sympatico.ca> X-Sender: b1aemm59@POP2.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:47:48 -0400 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Larry Kayser" Subject: Re: LF: Book search In-reply-to: <3CD09FED.57FED1DC@netins.net> References: <3CD070F1.881C9550@usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 09:09 PM 2002/05/01 -0500, Dr. Tom Gruis wrote: >I apologize if this is offensive because it is off subject ­ but ­ here goes >anyway. My rationale is that this list covers many nations and probably many >others interested in books, history, and/or radio. > > There are two books that I have been searching for with no success: > >1. Instruments of Darkness by Price which has to do with navigation radio >beams during >the late 1930s and through WW-II. Author is Price, Alfred Title is Instruments of Darkness: The History of Electronic Warfare http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?st=sl&ac=sl&qi=Dsl8imqMGE1czdjSoz0DsFqDslySDU0D:4:6 I just took a quick look, a dozen copies available , follow this url Good Luck Larry VA3LK And much thanks for reminding me to search, I found one I am looking for so it is a good day here as well. Thank You Doc.... LK From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25907 invoked from network); 2 May 2002 02:40:10 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 2 May 2002 02:40:10 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 25981 invoked from network); 2 May 2002 02:40:06 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 2 May 2002 02:40:06 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17380W-0000L7-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 May 2002 05:15:52 +0100 Received: from tomts12.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.56] helo=tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17380V-0000L2-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 02 May 2002 05:15:51 +0100 Received: from server1.sympatico.ca ([209.226.189.76]) by tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020502023743.RHRS29810.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@server1.sympatico.ca> for ; Wed, 1 May 2002 22:37:43 -0400 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020501223307.033b0df0@POP2.sympatico.ca> X-Sender: b1aemm59@POP2.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:37:38 -0400 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Larry Kayser" Subject: Re: LF: Book search In-reply-to: <3CD09FED.57FED1DC@netins.net> References: <3CD070F1.881C9550@usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >Doc: > >1. "Instruments of Darkness" by Price which has to do with navigation radio >beams during >the late 1930s and through WW-II. There is a UK scholar who is specializing in the work of R V Jones, Jones would have been aware of the work in this book without doubt and there might be a reference to it in the collection. I have had some success in some research working through the Imperial War College, London, I do not have the address handy but they seem to be able to point me to things that I could not find. They were successful in helping me identify some specific B2 suitcase radios that were assigned to use in Europe by their serial numbers. 73 Larry VA3LK From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6928 invoked from network); 1 May 2002 20:32:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2002 20:32:50 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 1829 invoked from network); 1 May 2002 10:13:29 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2002 10:13:29 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172sPJ-0006Vc-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 01 May 2002 12:36:25 +0100 Received: from cmailenv3.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.55]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172sPH-0006VX-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 01 May 2002 12:36:24 +0100 Received: from [62.21.147.141] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV3.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 172qsL-000309-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 01 May 2002 09:58:18 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020501114119.00a221f0@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 11:51:54 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: Re: LF: Re: Mains QRM blanker by PA0LQ In-reply-to: <001f01c1f0e7$69ade440$d49601d5@dave> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430145204.00a25a60@POP3.freeler.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE

Dave, G3YMC wrote:


The noise canceller which Steve GW4ALG designed is derived from Harry PA0LQ's version
with ideas from other sources - this can be found in the RSGB Low Frequency
Experimenter's Handbook and on Steve's site
(http://www.alg.demon.co.uk/radio/136/intro.htm).
Steve's unit does exactly the same as Harry's - picks up the offending mains
interference with a seperate small antenna and nulls it from the wanted signals.

PA0LQ's noise blanker derives the blanking signal from the mains. It is different from the system described in the LF Handbook.

In my announcement on the reflector I said that PA0LQ used the blanker to eliminate interference from fluorescent tubes. But that is not the case. My aging memory failed me, for which I apologize.
But the blanker is very effective on noise from light dimmers and other pulse shaped interference with mains frequency. When driven by  pulses from a separate receiver tuned to 100 kHz the blanker could possibly also be used to fight LORAN interference, but this has not been tried by PA0LQ.

The description and circuit diagram of PA0LQ's noise blanker and non-ringing 30 Hz wide audio filter are now available in English. I will send it to you by direct e-mail when requested. 

73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25097 invoked from network); 1 May 2002 17:34:33 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO mx.last.plus.net) (212.159.3.230) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2002 17:34:33 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 6644 invoked from network); 1 May 2002 14:08:51 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com (212.172.148.70) by mx.last.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2002 14:08:51 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172tto-0006ng-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 01 May 2002 14:12:00 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172ttn-0006nb-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 01 May 2002 14:11:59 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 172sMr-0000pw-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 01 May 2002 12:33:53 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 172sMq-0002tX-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 01 May 2002 12:33:53 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020501113247.00afbda0@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 12:27:43 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: LF: RX sensitivity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF Group, I have been doing some work recently on a preselector/convertor design for LF - The idea is an easy-to-build project to get started on LF that does not require test gear, alignment, or coil winding. I have a breadboarded circuit working quite nicely at the moment - the preselector has a tuned input circuit which can be adapted to a wide range of antennas without requiring a specially made antenna loading coil. A RX that covers LF can use the preselector output directly, or an oscillator/mixer circuit can be used to mix the signal up to HF. Although the up-convertor is fine for many applications, for the narrow band modes it is obviously better if you can use the circuit as a preselector with the main receiver tuned to LF, because this reduces drift. The problem is to know what gain is required from the preselector. I know several people have measured the sensitivity of their receivers, which varies a lot at LF - so I would be very grateful for any figures anyone has to hand for typical amateur receivers, so that I can design in gain levels that will suit the majority of peoples' equipment. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17842 invoked from network); 1 May 2002 11:46:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx.last.plus.net) (212.159.3.230) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2002 11:46:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 14601 invoked from network); 1 May 2002 11:03:48 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (212.172.148.70) by mx.last.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2002 11:03:48 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172taD-0006iZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 01 May 2002 13:51:45 +0100 Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.176]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172taC-0006iU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 01 May 2002 13:51:44 +0100 Received: from host62-7-71-201.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.7.71.201] helo=default) by protactinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 172s3G-000660-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 01 May 2002 12:13:39 +0100 Message-ID: <000501c1f101$34cd0fc0$c947073e@default> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: TV SMPSU QRM...idea?? Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 12:12:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, is is not always very easy to use the to reject the the drifty harmonics of SMPSUs from the 136 received signal. I discussed a couple of ideas with Steve, GW4ALG but we did not pursue them further at the time. My suggestion was to receive the local interference on its fundamental frequency maybe 35kHz or 70khz, then multiply it up before subtracting it from the 136kHz incoming signal. I am not sure how easy it would be to do this (or even whether it is really feasible). There are obviously problems and certainly I cannot think of an easy way of multiplying the signal other than mixing it with itself. Maybe someone cleverer than I could see a solution, and even see whether it would be a useful tool. The advantage as I see it would be that the signals are very strong on the fundamental, and easy to separate from genuine radio signals at that frequency. Only a narrow band of signals at 34,45.3,and / or 68kHz need be 'collected.After processing the system should not reject any real wanted 136kHz signals. It is also possible that this susyem would deal with multiple sources of qrm, which is the shortcomming of the simple phasing system. Go one ....tell be I am off my trolley...but please explain why !! Cheers de Alan G3NYK alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5010 invoked from network); 1 May 2002 08:15:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2002 08:15:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 16943 invoked from network); 1 May 2002 08:10:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2002 08:10:05 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172qcP-0006B5-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 01 May 2002 10:41:49 +0100 Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.111]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172qcO-0006B0-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 01 May 2002 10:41:48 +0100 Received: from host213-1-150-212.btinternet.com ([213.1.150.212] helo=dave) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 172p5S-0005kY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 01 May 2002 09:03:43 +0100 Message-ID: <001f01c1f0e7$69ade440$d49601d5@dave> From: "Dave Sergeant" To: "rsgb_lf_group" References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430145204.00a25a60@POP3.freeler.nl> Subject: LF: Re: Mains QRM blanker by PA0LQ Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 08:40:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >From Dave G3YMC The noise canceller which Steve GW4ALG designed is derived from Harry PA0LQ's version with ideas from other sources - this can be found in the RSGB Low Frequency Experimenter's Handbook and on Steve's site (http://www.alg.demon.co.uk/radio/136/intro.htm). Steve's unit does exactly the same as Harry's - picks up the offending mains interference with a seperate small antenna and nulls it from the wanted signals. Note that some of the junk mail which has come via this reflector in recent days (the largest source of my junk mail at the moment) was of the kind we would prefer not to see. Has anything done yet in changing the subscribe policy as discussed previously?. 73s Dave G3YMC dsergeant@iee.org dsergeant@btinternet.com http://www.dsergeant.btinternet.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 733 invoked from network); 1 May 2002 03:07:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2002 03:07:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 680 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2002 19:55:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2002 19:55:31 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172f8k-0004Jw-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 22:26:26 +0100 Received: from excalibur.skynet.be ([195.238.3.135]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172f8e-0004Jr-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 22:26:25 +0100 Received: from be047304 ([62.4.220.4]) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with SMTP id g3UJm7Q08073 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 21:48:07 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Message-ID: <002401c1f07f$de82a020$04dc043e@be047304> From: "SOMMEREYNS RUDDY" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: varicap diode Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 21:47:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hello to all,
 
I am looking for a varicap diode type MV109  or MV209. The MV109 is an obsolete type and I think that the MV209 is an newer one
with the same  cap. value.I found some sources for the MV209 in the States but want to check first if I can get it in Europe.
Need this for repair of a HP3586b selective level meter.
All information welcome.
 
Thanks !!!!!!
 
Ruddy
 
ON6UX
 
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12724 invoked from network); 1 May 2002 02:50:59 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2002 02:50:59 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 19995 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2002 09:45:55 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2002 09:45:55 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172Vh0-0002SE-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 12:21:10 +0100 Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.7]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172Vgz-0002S6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 12:21:09 +0100 Received: from G0MRF@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id l.193.648cfec (4461) for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 05:42:25 -0400 (EDT) From: G0MRF@aol.com Message-ID: <193.648cfec.29ffc101@aol.com> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 05:42:25 EDT Subject: Re: LF: Stronger Elastic...Tom?? To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows UK sub 10512 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hi.
A couple of years ago I helped a friend put up an 80m and down carolina windom between two oak trees.
The first attempt lasted 4 days before the halyard snapped.
On the second try, we secured one halyard to one tree but supported the antenna on the second tree with a large metal bucket full of rocks. Now, in a gale, the bucket moves up and down alarmingly but the antenna remains supported between the trees.

Hi Alan,
Don't blame Tom, he did an excellent job. I supplied the nylon cord, which was not cheap by the way. What I should have done was just use it as a loose halyard and attach a second loop of strong rope, but I thought I could get away with it, famous last words! I suppose a 60 or more foot tree swaying in the wind can produce something approaching the irrestible force as in the old riddle. Elastic might be a good idea though.
73 John, G4CNN



From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27042 invoked from network); 1 May 2002 01:52:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2002 01:52:58 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 14690 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2002 17:12:01 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2002 17:12:01 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172cWl-0003lm-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 19:39:03 +0100 Received: from cmailenv3.svr.pol.co.uk ([213.218.77.55]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172cWj-0003lh-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 19:39:02 +0100 Received: from [62.21.143.133] (helo=w8k3f0.freeler.nl) by cmailENV3.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 172azg-0004Gs-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 17:00:49 +0000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430190557.00a2cb10@POP3.freeler.nl> X-Sender: FRE0000086604@POP3.freeler.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 19:08:57 +0200 To: "LF-Group" From: "Dick Rollema" Subject: LF: PA0LQ noise blanker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To All from PA0SE

Now that interest is shown in the PA0LQ audio noise blanker I will translate the article into English and send it by direct e-mail to those who requested it. It may take a few days.

73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29429 invoked from network); 1 May 2002 01:15:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2002 01:15:44 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 11713 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2002 16:35:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2002 16:35:30 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172agW-0003LV-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 17:41:00 +0100 Received: from nat5.excitenetwork.com ([63.236.75.7] helo=xmxpita.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172agV-0003LQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 17:40:59 +0100 Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id 7C1173E3A; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:02:22 -0400 (EDT) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Stronger Elastic Received: from [62.253.64.8] by xprdmailfe8.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:02:22 EST From: "john sexton" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: computernetworks@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20020430150222.7C1173E3A@xmxpita.excite.com> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:02:22 -0400 (EDT) Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Thanks for a good idea Mike. I think I have some of those in the garage somewhere.
John, G4CNN


--- On Tue 04/30, mike.dennison wrote:
> G4CNN wrote:
> Elastic might be a good idea though.
>
> I use a tree to support the end of my antenna (see
> http://www.lf.thersgb.net/antenna.htm) and it moves about a metre in all
> directions. To prevent anything breaking, I use bungee cords (the sort
> you
> use to secure luggage) in series with the insulators on each wire at both
> ends of the top section. This has proved very effective. The mast that is
> attached to my house has a free-standing top section and this is designed
> to
> be flexible as well. The whole lot moving in a gale looks quite alarming,
> but it stays up.
>
> In my experience, an antenna system must be very flexible, or very rigid.
> Anything in between will break. After all, it is the old, brittle trees
> that
> fall down in a wind.
>
>
> Mike, G3XDV
> http://www.lf.thersgb.net
> ====================
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21708 invoked from network); 1 May 2002 00:05:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2002 00:05:58 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 19723 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2002 18:00:43 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2002 18:00:43 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172dJO-0003ve-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 20:29:18 +0100 Received: from mta01.btfusion.com ([62.172.195.11] helo=btclick.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 172dJN-0003vZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 20:29:17 +0100 Received: from virgin.net ([213.121.110.89]) by btclick.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GVE6WH02.D06 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 18:50:41 +0100 Message-ID: <3CCED95F.5C42C3D0@virgin.net> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 18:50:23 +0100 From: "Stewart Bryant" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Roundtable anyone ? References: <01C1E9DE.44C383C0.g4jnt@thersgb.net> <3CC44316.17EC58A0@virgin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: The next CARC committee meeting is this thursday. Is there any feedback from the list about date preference for a roundtable? Stewart G3YSX Stewart Bryant wrote: > Andy talbot wrote: > > > Are there any plans for an LF Roundtable this year ? > > Crawley ? > > In principle the Crawley club would be able to host this, although > we would have to discuss it at committee before we could make > a committment. > > The calandar is quite full over the next few weeks, but some possibilities > would be: > > 9, 10 or 15 June, or after 14 July. > > I personally could not do the weekends of 14 or 21 July as I will be travelling. > > 15 June is the day before the new Epsom Rally, so some folks might want to > who have a distance to travel might want to take in both events. > > Stewart G3YSX > > > > > > > Andy G4JNT