From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28426 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 21:53:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 31 May 2001 21:53:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 197 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 21:52:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 31 May 2001 21:52:28 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155aEk-0006yv-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 22:44:10 +0100 Received: from amersham.mail.uk.easynet.net ([195.40.1.45]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155aEj-0006yq-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 22:44:09 +0100 Received: from ericadodd (tnt-3-68.easynet.co.uk [195.40.202.68]) by amersham.mail.uk.easynet.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C3FB1753B for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 22:43:25 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <001a01c0ea1b$593165c0$44ca28c3@ericadodd> From: "g3ldo" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <22.16aa6566.28424f25@aol.com> Subject: Re: LF: new LFers, contests, etc. Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 22:47:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: There has been some discussion on methods of increasing activity on the 136kHz band. The main objection to contest activity seems to be that it would degenerate into a '599 QRZ' type contacts. The Worthing radio club runs a contest with its members for activity an a particular band, usually 28MHz, for the number of contacts made over a period of a year. Over a long time span the fast exchanges are irelevant. We could do the same for 136kHz over a period - say from September 1st to April 30th. We could have 1 point for each new contact and a multiplier for each country. To stimulate activity in all modes we could have, say three basic modes 1. CW. 2 QRSS/DFCW. 3. PSK31/wolf. e.g. If you worked G0MRF on CW, QRSS and PSK31 this would count at three separate contacts. I had thought of an additional multiplier for a different continent but this would make it only in the reach of 'big guns'. The objective is to increase activity so I dont think continental multipliers help. What do you think? Regards, Peter, G3LDO e-mail Web From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5252 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 18:24:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 31 May 2001 18:24:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 10461 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 18:24:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 31 May 2001 18:24:14 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155Wxn-0005D7-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 19:14:27 +0100 Received: from mail4.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.193.211]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155Wxm-0005CK-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 19:14:26 +0100 Received: from modem-40.anguirel.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.114.168] helo=g3aqc) by mail4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 155WxB-0002pX-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 19:13:49 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c0e9fd$69bf0d20$a872883e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re.LF 73/136 KHz Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:12:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hi John and All,
Reciprocally is there anything over there that we can listen for?
 
73s Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10018 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 17:04:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 31 May 2001 17:04:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 21315 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 17:03:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 31 May 2001 17:03:37 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155Vkw-0004Km-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 17:57:06 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155Vks-0004Kh-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 17:57:03 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 155VkJ-00045i-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 17:56:27 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from [147.197.130.252] (helo=mj9ar) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 155VkI-0005Gp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 17:56:26 +0100 From: "James Moritz" Organization: University of Hertfordshire To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 17:57:19 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: LF: 73/136 khz In-reply-to: <3B165EF0.18495.14AC94B@localhost> References: <3B14B3E8.2E1001E@ns.sympatico.ca> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Message-ID: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear John, LF group, As well as GBR and HBG, there is also DCF77 (I think) on 77.5kHz - this has similar 1-second ticks to HBG. Note that the signal radiated by GBR around 73.25 changes at irregular intervals, often several times a day, and often seems to be radiating two signals simultaneously. Recently I have seen: -No signal at all -Single carrier some tens of Hz above or below the nominal frequency -two carriers straddling the nominal frequency -various mixtures of RTTY-like data signals and carriers. I think all these signals have ERPs of some 10s of kW, so would have to be quite strong audible signals across the pond before there is much chance of detecting 1W ERP or less amateur signals. Good luck - will be interested to know what you can hear over there. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14262 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 15:48:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 31 May 2001 15:48:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 29937 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 15:47:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 31 May 2001 15:47:47 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155Uan-0003ci-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 16:42:33 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mailout03.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.81] helo=mailout03.sul.t-online.de) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155Ual-0003cd-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 16:42:32 +0100 Received: from fwd01.sul.t-online.de by mailout03.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 155UaA-0005wH-00; Thu, 31 May 2001 17:41:54 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from (087321565-0001@[217.2.69.172]) by fwd01.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 155UZz-0d5h4LC; Thu, 31 May 2001 17:41:43 +0200 From: "Hans-Joachim Brandt" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000901c0e9ca$f1de09a0$3a24073e@default> Subject: LF: Once again: Field effect versus bipolar transistors X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 17:41:43 +0200 Message-ID: <155UZz-0d5h4LC@fwd01.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 087321565-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear all thanks to an email from Alan, G3NYK, my eyes have been opened for a second mistake in the circuit of my complementary darlington-pair LF power amplifier in the LF Experimenter's Handbook (this one is not contained in my original drawing). To repeat the two mistakes again for clarity: Tr2, the upper driver transistor, is shown in the handbook with a PNP symbol but should be NPN (as the BD235 is), and Tr4, the upper final transistor, is shown with a NPN symbol, but should be PNP (as the BD312 is). Tr3 and Tr5 are drawn and labelled correctly, also the ebc orientation for all transistors is correct. Please believe me that I have not encountered problems like these when mounting the correct transistors on the cooler and wiring them! Obviously drawing with symbols is different, sri. OK? 73 Ha-Jo, DJ1ZB Alan Melia schrieb: > Hi Ha-jo, would I be right in assuming that the symbol for the upper driver > transistor Tr2 is wrong in your circuit in the Handbook also. It is shown > with a PNP symbol but the device quoted is an NPN. The ebc orientation would > be the same but the emitter arrow should 'point the other way' ?? > > My interest is that I have an old audio slave amp which is an H bridge > circuit and I am considering rebuilding it using effectively two of your > circuits in anti-phase. It does mean an output transformer, but that seems > a small price to pay for about 350watts linear amplification, on both 73kHz > and 136kHz. > > Cheers de Alan G3NYK > Alan.Melia@btinternet.com > . > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26785 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 14:31:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 31 May 2001 14:31:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 19529 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 14:31:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 31 May 2001 14:31:28 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155TFG-0002xG-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 15:16:14 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from [213.2.16.106] (helo=rsgb.org.uk) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155TFC-0002xA-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 15:16:11 +0100 Received: from miked by rsgb.org.uk with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v4.0.0.R) for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 15:10:43 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Mike Dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 15:10:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: LF: 73/136 khz Message-ID: <3B165EF0.18495.14AC94B@localhost> In-reply-to: <3B14B3E8.2E1001E@ns.sympatico.ca> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-Return-Path: miked@mail X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > I can receive with good sensitivity down to 30 KHz. What European > commercial could I try for and what is their transmission format? i doubt if I > could hear or see you from GI without QRSS. i would be prepared to listen , > however. > 73 de John VE1ZJ Try HBG on 75.0kHz. This is a time signal that has a short interruption every second. There is a UK commercial station just above 73kHz but it is less easy to identify than HBG. Good luck. Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24071 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 07:38:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 31 May 2001 07:38:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 16184 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 07:38:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 31 May 2001 07:38:12 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155Mv1-00080w-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 08:30:55 +0100 Received: from bob.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155Mux-00080r-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 08:30:51 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: by bob.dera.gov.uk; (8.8.8/1.3/10May95) id IAA31099; Thu, 31 May 2001 08:34:36 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 29088 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 08:23:59 -0000 Received: from gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk (172.16.9.10) by baton.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 31 May 2001 08:23:59 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk; id IAA09909; Thu, 31 May 2001 08:16:41 GMT Received: from unknown(10.71.64.31) by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk via smap (3.2) id xma009822; Thu, 31 May 01 08:16:06 GMT Received: from mailex.dera.gov.uk (unverified) by mailguard.dera.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 08:38:02 +0100 Received: (qmail 16495 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 07:20:43 +0100 Received: from softdnserror (HELO cchecker.dstl.gov.uk) (192.168.248.52) by 10.10.80.250 with SMTP; 31 May 2001 06:20:43 -0000 Received: from FRN-MAIL-R1.dstl.gov.uk (unverified) by cchecker.dstl.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.2) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 07:20:48 +0100 Received: by frn-mail-r1.dstl.gov.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 31 May 2001 08:28:53 +0100 Message-ID: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803D55C4A5@pdw-mail-r1.dstl.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Field effect versus bipolar tran sistors Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 08:28:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: That centre tapped coil in the Decca transmitters is there to 'soak up' high current pulses generated in the short switching interval when both FETs may be on together - a few ns duration. This comes about since the turn-off time of power FETs is of longer duration than the switch on time. The 15 ohm resistor across the coil is the damping to prevent high frequency spurious oscillations. In a SMPSU the there is a deliberate dead band generated at the cross over, when both devices in a push pull pair are switched off, but this is undesirable in a very high efficiency class E transmitter. Andy G4JNT > protective means > against this. The centre tapped coil for instance, loaded by > 15 ohms, located > between both power FETs in the Decca 5501 PA output, seems to > me to be such a > protective device. > > In a certain way, my complementary bipolar PA is even showing > similarities to > this basic Decca power amplifier block mentioned, such as two > transistors in a > totem pole configuration, the output employing a series > resonant circuit . . . > > 73 Ha-Jo, DJ1ZB> -- The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s). For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is prohibited and may be unlawful. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16932 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 22:16:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2001 22:16:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 11656 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 22:15:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 30 May 2001 22:15:47 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155E6t-0003Ev-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 23:06:35 +0100 Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155E6r-0003Eo-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 23:06:34 +0100 Received: from xtr743187 ([202.27.178.116]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20010530220633.MAME697749.mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz@xtr743187> for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:06:33 +1200 Message-ID: <004f01c0e954$ffae1fa0$2fb21bca@xtr743187> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: LF: Re: RA1792 audio calibration Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 10:07:11 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Jim and others, Some rigs have DDS sidetone, including the TS-850. I modified my TS-850 so that sidetone is available from the rear panel, and is present whenever CW mode is selected. I originally wanted it for doing XY scope displays of sidetone vs received audio, for confirming zero beat with a wobbly circle display. Off-air carriers can usually be checked to very good accuracy using that approach (but noting 1 Hz nominal tuning steps of the TS-850). However, having the the DDS sidetone available externally is also excellent for frequency calibration of sound cards. Now with Argo, 1 Hz steps are nicely filled in on the PC screen display. A note of caution though. Even though I have a close tolerance master oscillator in the TS-850, I find that the DDS outputs do have residual errors, probably related to "digital fragments" from the binary processes in the DDS chips. There can be tens of millihertz errors, which are far greater than the master oscillator ppm figure converted to the DDS output frequency. These digital fragments are less than ppm errors at HF, but are quite significant at LF and audio. I originally used 1000 Hz sidetone for Argo work, but found that the DDS sidetone error was worse for 1000 Hz than 800 Hz, so I have gone back to using 800 Hz reference. 73, Bob ZL2CA From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18943 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 21:59:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2001 21:59:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 2168 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 21:59:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 30 May 2001 21:59:25 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155DvV-00035y-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 22:54:49 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mailout04.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.18] helo=mailout04.sul.t-online.de) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155DvS-00035t-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 22:54:46 +0100 Received: from fwd06.sul.t-online.de by mailout04.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 155Dus-0004kF-00; Wed, 30 May 2001 23:54:10 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from (087321565-0001@[217.2.66.68]) by fwd06.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 155Dur-0u4sNsC; Wed, 30 May 2001 23:54:09 +0200 From: "Hans-Joachim Brandt" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <001001c0e821$a6c3f9c0$a1d51ad4@w8k3f0> Subject: Re: LF: Field effect versus bipolar transistors X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 23:54:09 +0200 Message-ID: <155Dur-0u4sNsC@fwd06.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 087321565-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear all, as Dick, PA0SE, when raising his question, has mentioned my bipolar PA in the latest version of the LF Experimenter's Handbook using complementary darlington-pairs and that the emitter arrows in some of the transistor symbols point the wrong way, I first had to clear with Dick if there really is a failure in my circuit. I have not seen the latest edition of the LF Experimenter's Handbook yet, I wanted to wait for the next Ham Radio to have a look at it and presumably to buy it. But Dick's scan of the circuit from the LF Experimenter's Handbook showed my original circuit which indeed contained a failure; Tr4, a BD312, is a PNP transistor, but erroneously I have used an NPN symbol for Tr4 in the circuit, and I apologize for this failure. The position of all emitters and the transistor types employed are all given correctly, however. Concerning the design of my first LF PA, the main goal has been to generate 100 watts (the power level of the first temporary LF licences for DL in 1997) and employ as few coils or transformers as possible. The only RF power coils are in the output low-pass filter. Next, the sum of the power dissipation limits of all power transistors (each transistor of the BD311-314 series has a Pt of 150 W) should be at least as high as the total amplifier input (an old rule for me which is also true for the data of typical RF power transistors and FETs and which I also strictly obey for my HF PA designs). Furthermore I have not much experience in power field effect transistors so far and therefore have preferred to use epibase bipolar transistors with an Ft of about 4-8 MHz because they would not oscillate on VHF (I have an older 160 m PA with such a transistor <2N5068 with Ft 4 MHz> showing absolutely no harmonics above 8 MHz in the output spectrum, the transistor is simply too slow to generate higher harmonics). On the other hand I have been reported that power FETs in Hi-Fi-amplifiers, even in circuits already sold on the market, may oscillate around 29 MHz, causing interference to a nearby radio amateur. These are some of the disadvantages when employing high frequency devices for low frequency purposes. Compared to switching PAs the efficiency is rather low, about 50%, but the amplifier has tolerated serveral times high VSWR or even not being connected to the antenna without any damage. This reliability is what I want from all my PAs, be it HF or LF; I am ranking efficiency secondary, I am not so often on the air. It is my impression that the main problem with this dc coupled type of class B or C amplifier to achieve higher efficiency is to drive one transistor of the power pair really into cut-off condition while the other is conducting. This condition can be met easier in transformer-coupled amplifier circuits. When designing for higher power output I will not exclude also using FETs in the future because for a single unit the available dissipation rating is higher for FETs than for bipolars. But I guess I will have to study the problem of VHF oscillations under all operating conditions, and add some protective means against this. The centre tapped coil for instance, loaded by 15 ohms, located between both power FETs in the Decca 5501 PA output, seems to me to be such a protective device. In a certain way, my complementary bipolar PA is even showing similarities to this basic Decca power amplifier block mentioned, such as two transistors in a totem pole configuration, the output employing a series resonant circuit . . . 73 Ha-Jo, DJ1ZB Dick Rollema schrieb: > To All from PA0SE > > Most of the designs for high power transmitters for the LF bands I have seen > use power-FETs in the final. Examples are the designs by G0MRF and G3YXM in > The low frequency experimenter's handbook. But we all know from experience > that FETs are very vulnerable (extremely fast fuses). Would not power > bipolar transistors be more robust? What are the advantages of FETs over > bipolars? > FETs do not require real power to drive them. But for stability and maybe > other reasons rather low value resistors are often connected from gate to > common; this together with the higher voltage to drive a FET than a bipolar > transistor could well mean that the actual power to drive a FET amplifier is > higher than for a bipolar design. > > The Handbook features a design by DJ1ZB using complementary darlington-pairs > (the emitter arrows in some of the transistor symbols point the wrong way!). > But they produce 100W only. > I think I have seen higher power bipolar transistor transmitters in Break-In. > Perhaps the ZL boys can comment. > > If anyone has evaluated the pros and cons of field effect and bipolar > transistors for high power LF transmitters I would be grateful to hear them. > > 73, Dick, PA0SE > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19292 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 21:40:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2001 21:40:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 17962 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 21:39:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 30 May 2001 21:39:51 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155DYp-0002xW-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 22:31:23 +0100 Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155DYn-0002xR-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 22:31:22 +0100 Received: from xtr743187 ([202.27.178.47]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20010530213128.LMQT697749.mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz@xtr743187> for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 09:31:28 +1200 Message-ID: <003801c0e950$191f21a0$2fb21bca@xtr743187> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: LF: 2 Hz shift DFCW Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:32:00 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, One way of generating a frequency for LF transmitting is to "divide by 100" from an HF band. In New Zealand we work around 181.4 kHz, which conveniently means 100 times turns up within the 17 metre amateur band 18.068 - 18.168 MHz, so there is no issue with defeating the "transmit inhibit" as the frequency is not outside a recognised ham band. Anyway, the point of this bulletin is to draw attention to the FSK or RTTY facilities on modern rigs, whereby applying TTL drive can provide 200 Hz FSK for HF packet or PACTOR. After dividing by 100, that gives 2 Hz shift at LF, which is quite suitable for long dot length DFCW. Other frequency shifts can likely also be set, such as 170 Hz, but 200 Hz is the "nice number offset". Even for the EU 136 kHz band, an amateur transceiver tuned around 13.6 kHz, divided by 100, could produce a 2 Hz shift at 136 kHz, using the available FSK functions of the HF rig (but also dealing with transmit inhibit for frequencies outside an amateur band). This appears to be a convenient way of generating DFCW at LF with a minimum of rig surgery. 73, Bob ZL2CA From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24482 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 21:22:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2001 21:22:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 6831 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 21:22:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 30 May 2001 21:22:32 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155DHW-0002jI-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 22:13:30 +0100 Received: from chalfont.mail.uk.easynet.net ([195.40.1.44]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 155DHT-0002jD-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 22:13:27 +0100 Received: from ericadodd (tnt-6-57.easynet.co.uk [195.40.201.57]) by chalfont.mail.uk.easynet.net (Postfix) with SMTP id C7A96F84D2 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 22:12:50 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <000d01c0e94d$e55ced40$39c928c3@ericadodd> From: "g3ldo" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3B100166.8CA1854B@netscapeonline.co.uk> <3B14B3E8.2E1001E@ns.sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: LF: 73/136 khz Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 22:16:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi John, >I can receive with good sensitivity down to 30 KHz. What European > commercial could I try for and what is their transmission format? When we were at the recent LF mini-convention at Flight Refuelling ARC the subject of transatlantic signals at 73kHz was discussed. I said that I would contact you to plan something for later in the year. We all agreed that it would be a good start for you to look for powerful commercial stations on or near the 73kHz band. The most obvious is GBR on 73.25kHz. It is an RTTY signal and makes life difficult for anyone wanting to listen on the band here in the UK. The other signal you can look for is HBG on 75kHz. This transmits time signals similar to MSF on 60kHz (which is another signal you could look for). Regards, Peter, G3LDO e-mail Web From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7614 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 15:39:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2001 15:39:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 6880 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 15:38:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 30 May 2001 15:38:20 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1557yM-0008Qf-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:33:22 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from imo-d10.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.42]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1557yI-0008Qa-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:33:18 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id l.34.15c8fec4 (4230) for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:31:59 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <34.15c8fec4.28466c6f@aol.com> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 11:31:59 EDT Subject: LF: Re: Emails not in sequence To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows DE sub 217 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hi John,

> I noticed that the emails re: GBR were very badly out of order.
> In some cases in reverse order.

Same happens here (with ISP=AOL) sometimes. I often experience this:
After disconnecting from the ISP and re-connecting, there are suddenly 3 or
more new incoming mails. As I don't know anything how and where the mails are
stored & forewarded, I can only guess it's a 'temporary net overloading
effect'.
Anyway, no problem if some "Re's" arrive before the original message.

73, Wolf, DL4YHF. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3472 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 13:58:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2001 13:58:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 15095 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 13:58:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 30 May 2001 13:58:13 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1556JV-0007WX-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 14:47:05 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1556JR-0007WS-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 14:47:01 +0100 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.91.116]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 10:45:25 -0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3B14B3E8.2E1001E@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 01:48:41 -0700 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: 73/136 khz References: <3B100166.8CA1854B@netscapeonline.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Mal I can receive with good sensitivity down to 30 KHz. What European commercial could I try for and what is their transmission format? i doubt if I could hear or see you from GI without QRSS. i would be prepared to listen , however. 73 de John VE1ZJ gii3kev wrote: > Hi All > I have not seen any info for ages about acty on 73 khz. Is anyone active > or interested in this band at present. > I will be in GI land in a couple of weeks time and could be active on > 136 khz and possibly 73 khz but I am not enthusastic judging by the > interest /activity in recent times on either band. Since I operate a one > man band it takes a couple of full days to get the antennas installed > and tuned up. The last time that I was active the response was poor. By > now I thought half of europe would be on 136 khz but the reverse has > happened. There is also the anti social aspect, some active on LF do not > like CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM and the operating of cw and procedure is > poor. > This has probably got even worse!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe Wolf and Wobble and > a bit of Bark would suit some better !!!!!!!!! > If I activate the GI station I shall be sticking to normal cw for > contacts around EU and maybe very slow visual cw for dx if necessary. > 73 de Mal/G3KEV/Scarborough From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12141 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 12:05:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2001 12:05:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 18507 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 12:05:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 30 May 2001 12:05:10 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1554cR-0006XD-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:58:31 +0100 Received: from rubellite.lion-access.net ([212.19.217.4]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1554cH-0006X8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:58:21 +0100 Received: from w8k3f0 (1Cust191.tnt2.rtm1.nl.uu.net [213.116.98.191]) by rubellite.lion-access.net (I-Lab) with SMTP id DCCD32923; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:56:43 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <007b01c0e900$35e8e0a0$bf6274d5@w8k3f0> From: "Dick Rollema" To: "LF-Group" Cc: "Jules Moraal" Subject: LF: Filed effect versus bipolar transistors Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 13:59:57 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
To All from PA0SE
 
Many thanks to those who gave me their views on the matter of FETs versus bipolar transistors in LF transmitters.
 
I now understand why at unpredictable moments one of the four HEXFETs IRF520 in my TX fails, though they are operated within their maximum ratings. It must be the class B operation for which the FETs were not designed.
 
I will turn down the supply voltage down to 30V again at which I started on LF. The FETs seemed to accept that over prolonged transmission times.
 
73, Dick, PA0SE
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27722 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 09:45:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2001 09:45:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 13612 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 09:44:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 30 May 2001 09:44:48 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1552RH-0005Nj-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 10:38:51 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1552RD-0005Ne-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 10:38:47 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 1552Qe-0000gv-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 10:38:12 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from [147.197.130.252] (helo=mj9ar) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 1552Qd-0001UN-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 10:38:11 +0100 From: "James Moritz" Organization: University of Hertfordshire To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:39:03 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: LF: RA1792 audio calibration X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Message-ID: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF group, If you have an RA1792 RX, and require and accurate audio frequency (for calibrating a sound card for "Wolf" reception for instance), you can get one very easily by tuning the RX to 0Hz in CW mode. This makes the LO equal to the IF frequency, and some signal leaks through the mixer into the IF, where it is demodulated as a CW tone. The audio frequency output is then equal to the BFO offset, which can be set in 10Hz steps from 0 to 8kHz, as I recall. The frequency accuracy will be that of the internal reference, ie. 0.1ppm if it has been calibrated fairly recently. This might well work in other receivers with synthesised BFOs which can be tuned to zero too. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5472 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 08:56:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2001 08:56:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 6696 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 08:55:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 30 May 2001 08:55:40 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1551ax-0004z3-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:44:47 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from d06lmsgate.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1551at-0004sh-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:44:43 +0100 Received: from d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.166.84.148]) by d06lmsgate.uk.ibm.COM (1.0.0) with ESMTP id JAA192172 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:25:31 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from usa.net (ss10.pok.socks.ibm.com [9.14.3.75]) by d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.8.8m3/NCO v4.96) with ESMTP id JAA39238 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:42:57 +0100 Message-ID: <3B14B2A9.8185E1A0@usa.net> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:43:21 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: GBR wav file....zipped References: <200105291419_MC2-D384-299@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Alan, please put me in your distribution list for the zipped WAV recording of GBR. I am not a salesman, and still need a few more years to become a professional idler.....:-) TNX. 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7631 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 08:39:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2001 08:39:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 7228 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 08:39:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 30 May 2001 08:39:13 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1551P1-0004rc-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:32:27 +0100 Received: from ewey-rwcmta.excite.com ([198.3.99.191] helo=ewey.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1551P0-0004rX-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:32:26 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from bronty ([199.172.153.112]) by ewey.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20010530083111.ZXFF18478.ewey.excite.com@bronty> for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 01:31:11 -0700 Message-ID: <19896975.991211471814.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 01:30:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "john sexton" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Emails not in sequence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 62.253.64.5 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi guys, I noticed that the emails re: GBR were very badly out of order. In some cases in reverse order. Did anyone else notice this, or is it just my ISP? 73, John, G4CNN _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21291 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 08:09:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2001 08:09:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 2442 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 08:09:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 30 May 2001 08:09:19 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1550vw-0004WO-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:02:24 +0100 Received: from chalfont.mail.uk.easynet.net ([195.40.1.44]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1550vs-0004WJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:02:20 +0100 Received: from ericadodd (tnt-6-162.easynet.co.uk [195.40.201.162]) by chalfont.mail.uk.easynet.net (Postfix) with SMTP id F21B2F8135 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:01:41 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <001c01c0e8df$5e573b20$a2c928c3@ericadodd> From: "g3ldo" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <54.1523ede1.2843db49@aol.com> Subject: LF: Re: Speclab, GBR and loop antennas Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:04:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Wolf, DL4YHF, said: ".......the system does receive below 10kHz but I don't know how good. I don't have a commercial receiver which goes below 10kHz, so I cannot compare my RX system to a professional RX. I don't even know a (reliable) signal between 1 and 10kHz to listen for. The RX antenna is a heavy bundle of 19 ferrite rods, insulated from each other to avoid currents in the semiconducting material, and 400 turns of wire. Total inductivity about 30 millihenry, parallel caps for resonance between 15..20kHz and a high-current JFET as impedance converter (no voltage gain required for the MIC input of the PC). With more C's shunted it will work on even lower frequencies, but not very good I suppose". I tried Speclab for the first time yesterday and it worked fine with a receiver audio output - with lots of interesting features that will take me a long time to explore. Tried it as a VLF receiver for the purposes of receiving GBR. Seemed to work OK after an an itial hitch and all the relevent function boxes were green. Problem now no signals even though there is noise in the speaker. The signal generator produces a signal. Nothing on the input box. I have also lost the colour palet so everything is in monochrome. Furthermore Speclab wont set back to 'normal'. Abandonded Speclab and used D2155 Level Meter, connected to the superloop described on my Web page. Loop resonated (aproximately) to 16kHz using 90nF good quality capacitors. When GBR transmitted it was -75dBm and the CW was very easy copy. The loop exibited 24dB symetrical nulls but deepest part of the nulls masked by noise. Later did the test using the signal on 138kHz with loop accurately resonated and got 32dB symetrical nuls. A good day out in the sunshine experimenting with LF! Regards, Peter, G3LDO e-mail Web From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6132 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 00:39:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 30 May 2001 00:39:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 20308 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 00:38:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 30 May 2001 00:38:54 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154tvK-00010a-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 01:33:18 +0100 Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net ([207.172.4.61]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154tvJ-00010V-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 01:33:17 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from 66-44-68-249.s249.tnt8.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com ([66.44.68.249] helo=nanandsandy) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 3.22 #6) id 154tui-00069G-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 20:32:40 -0400 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 29 May 2001 20:35:09 -0400 Message-ID: <01C0E87E.DA938C40.esanders@erols.com> From: "Nan and Sandy Sanders" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: GBR Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:33:25 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Good copy on GBR just out side Washington, DC in Northern Virginia. Sandy WB5MMB From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21891 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 21:49:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 21:49:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 16852 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 21:48:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 29 May 2001 21:48:32 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154rHx-0007yd-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 22:44:29 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from mail4.galactica.it ([212.41.208.21] helo=galactica.it) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154rHw-0007yV-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 22:44:28 +0100 Received: from mail pickup service by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 29 May 2001 22:20:15 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: High Received: from listserver.qth.net ([63.238.179.180]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Tue, 29 May 2001 12:20:03 +0200 Received: from localhost (mail@localhost) by listserver.qth.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f4TAFJE28493; Tue, 29 May 2001 06:15:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: listserver.qth.net: mail owned process doing -bs X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: by listserver.qth.net (bulk_mailer v1.11); Tue, 29 May 2001 06:14:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by listserver.qth.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f4TAEbH28240 for wun-outgoing; Tue, 29 May 2001 06:14:38 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: listserver.qth.net: majordom set sender to owner-wun@qth.net using -f Received: from asterix.tee.gr (asterix.tee.gr [212.70.193.140]) by listserver.qth.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4TAEK428227; Tue, 29 May 2001 06:14:20 -0400 Received: from teeserver.tee.gr (teeserver.tee.gr [212.70.193.130]) by asterix.tee.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4TAFO501642; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:15:24 +0300 Received: from odin ([212.70.201.173]) by teeserver.tee.gr (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id GE3DT100.NXF; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:15:01 +0300 Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010529131337.006eee68@aurora.eexi.gr> X-Sender: sv1xv@aurora.eexi.gr (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) X-Priority: 1 Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 13:13:37 +0300 To: wun@qth.net, lowfer@qth.net From: "Costas Krallis" Subject: LF: [WUN] GBR 16 kHz Cc: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 29 1004Z May 2001, GBR stopped its MSK transmission and switched to CW mode. It sent briefly a few 1 s dots, its callsign twice "GBR GBR" followed by a few more dots. Then it went off. Nice signal, S9 in Athens, Greece. Is it a test for the forthcoming CW transmission at 1200 and 1345Z? 73 Costas SV1XV +------------------------------------------------------------+ | Costas Krallis SV1XV * LOC KM18UA | | P.O.Box 3066 * E-Mail: sv1xv@eexi.gr | | GR-10210 Athens * PGP key: 0x3BDBBC34 | | GREECE * http://www.qsl.net/sv1xv/ | | * http://w4u.eexi.gr/~sv1xv/ | +------------------------------------------------------------+ -- The Worldwide UTE News (WUN) mailing list. WUN is a non-profit, dues-free club established in 1995 to share information on shortwave utilities. For more information: http://www.wunclub.com. Write to listmaster@wunclub.com if you need assistance with the mailing list. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5156 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 21:35:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 21:35:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 19193 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 21:35:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 29 May 2001 21:35:08 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154r3r-0007wt-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 22:29:55 +0100 Received: from mail1.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.193.18]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154r3n-0007wm-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 22:29:51 +0100 Received: from modem-234.ekkaia.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.177.234] helo=g3aqc) by mail1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 154r39-0008Sx-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 22:29:12 +0100 Message-ID: <003601c0e886$5e6c6e40$eab1883e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. GBR reception. Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:28:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hi All,
Interesting that GBR was heard by Ric in Australia. If we knew the radiated power for todays CW transmission we would have some idea how many dbs we need to make it down under. I suspect its going to be rather a lot. Hi.  73s Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10437 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 20:44:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 20:44:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 19053 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 20:43:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 29 May 2001 20:43:56 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154qGf-0007Si-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 21:39:05 +0100 Received: from [212.251.28.100] (helo=platon.acisgroup.gr ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154qGe-0007Sc-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 21:39:04 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from main ([212.251.32.9]) by platon.acisgroup.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA07369 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 04:34:17 +0300 Message-ID: <3B1409D4.3836@usa.net> Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:43:00 +0300 From: "Emmanouel Mantzaras" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: GBR 75th anniversary recordings References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Very good reception in Athens. -54 dbm in my hp3586A from a 80 meters long wire. 73 de sv1bke From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7567 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 20:42:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 20:42:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 7580 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 20:41:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 29 May 2001 20:41:57 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154qEK-0007SU-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 21:36:40 +0100 Received: from mailgate3.cinetic.de ([212.227.116.80]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154qEJ-0007SP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 21:36:39 +0100 Received: from smtp.web.de (smtp01.web.de [194.45.170.210]) by mailgate3.cinetic.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.0-0.4) with SMTP id f4TKZx831185; Tue, 29 May 2001 22:35:59 +0200 Received: from arbeitspc by smtp.web.de with smtp (freemail 4.2.1.8 #22) id m154qDf-007ZIhC; Tue, 29 May 2001 22:35 +0200 Message-ID: <005f01c0e87e$f96d7f40$0200a8c0@arbeitspc> From: "Michael Oexner" To: "WUN" , "LF" , "NDBLIST" Subject: LF: GBR 16kHz rcvd ufb Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:36:00 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mailgate3.cinetic.de id f4TKZx831185 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello all, the 1200 UTC CW transmission of GBR on 16 kHz was very good copy over here. Equipment used was a surplus selective level meter (Wandel & Goltermann SPM-3) and a simple 15m longwire antenna. Does anybody know an e-mail and/or snail mail address to ask for a QSL? vy 73 + gd DX, Michael RX: ICOM R75, ICOM R71A, Sony ICF-SW7600G, W&G SPM-3 Antenna: Radio West 22.5" ferrite loop with amplifier, 20m longwire, Wellbrook ALA 100 Location: Roschbach, Germany N 49°15' E 8°07' / Locator JN49BF Member: CSDXC, DSWCI, EUNL, LWCA, MWC Editor of "The European NDB Handbook" e-mail: michael.oexner@web.de From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15700 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 20:28:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 20:28:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 27935 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 20:27:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 29 May 2001 20:27:34 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154q0M-0007LC-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 21:22:14 +0100 Received: from kuku-rwcmta.excite.com ([198.3.99.63] helo=kuku.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154q0I-0007L4-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 21:22:10 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from bronty ([199.172.153.112]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20010529202103.GNTN14474.kuku.excite.com@bronty> for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:21:03 -0700 Message-ID: <28277309.991167663254.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 13:20:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "john sexton" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: GBR wav file....zipped MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 62.253.64.5 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Alan, Did you notice the power ramp up when it restarted the MSK transmission at 13.45? John, G4CNN _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25268 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 18:31:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 18:31:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 754 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 18:31:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 29 May 2001 18:31:20 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154o6n-0006Nl-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 19:20:45 +0100 Received: from ds-img-7.compuserve.com ([149.174.206.153] helo=spdmbaaa.compuserve.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154o6j-0006NF-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 19:20:41 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spdmbaaa.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id OAA17081 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:19:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:19:10 -0400 From: "'Geri' Kinzel, DK8KW" Subject: LF: GBR wav file....zipped To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: <200105291419_MC2-D384-299@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Alan, would be glad if you send me the file ... I will make an MP3 of it and put it on my website. Best 73 Geri, DK8KW (W1KW) From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10071 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 18:07:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 18:07:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 13937 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 18:06:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 29 May 2001 18:06:52 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154nnd-0006E7-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 19:00:57 +0100 Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.111]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154nnc-0006E2-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 19:00:56 +0100 Received: from [213.1.109.185] (helo=default) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 154nmv-00051a-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 19:00:13 +0100 Message-ID: <000501c0e869$4045cbe0$b96d01d5@default> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: GBR wav file....zipped Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 18:58:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, to anyone not able to to listen to the historic transmission ( i.e. not a Salesman or a professional idler like me) I have recorded the first transmission period as an 8.85Mbyte file (using 8ksamples and 8 bits under Creative Wave studio) This zips down to about 775kbytes so is not unreasonable as an attachment. I will happily send this to anyone interested......but I will complile a distribution list so I only have to post it once. Reception by AOR7030 using 300Hz filter on the centre frequency as there did seem to be sidebands at about 370Hz here which gave the initial keying an MCW sound. The signal was very strong here even with the 136kHz aerial not retuned, I suppose thats not surprising when it was successfully heard in Oz. I am afraid that those who tuned in at 1345z missed most of the message as it actually started at 1330z (I suspect by the way it went straight to MSK that it had a scheduled transmission slot to keep at 1345z) Cheers de Alan G3NYK Alan.Melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26315 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 17:38:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 17:38:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 24093 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 17:38:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 29 May 2001 17:38:28 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154nI6-0005rO-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 18:28:22 +0100 Received: from mail2.dada.it ([195.110.96.69] helo=mail.dada.it) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154nI5-0005rJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 18:28:21 +0100 Received: (qmail 5471 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 17:27:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cestag) (195.110.102.79) by mail.dada.it with SMTP; 29 May 2001 17:27:39 -0000 Message-ID: <004a01c0e864$8fe38480$4f666ec3@cestag> From: "cesare tagliabue" To: "LF group" Subject: LF: GBR heard Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:26:56 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
        Hi all
            Also here in Florence GBR as usual was coming very well. I've read the second message received with a small ferrite antenna located in the attic. The signal was 579, no problems for QRN.
best 73  Cesare
 
Cesare Tagliabue   I 5 TGC
WW-Loc  JN53PS
e-mail: cestag@dada.it
url: http://www.dadacasa.com/i5tgc
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8732 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 16:48:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 16:48:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 16813 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 16:48:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 29 May 2001 16:48:07 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154mWR-0005Tk-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 17:39:07 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from jaws.cisco.com ([198.135.0.150] helo=cisco.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154mWN-0005Tc-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 17:39:03 +0100 Received: from virgin.net (lon-sto4-lan-vlan132-dhcp21.cisco.com [144.254.108.24]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA24483 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 17:37:54 +0100 (BST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3B13D035.8FE6340@virgin.net> Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 17:37:10 +0100 From: "Stewart Bryant" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: GBR 75th anniversary recordings References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Could you put them on a web site somewhere? 73 Stewart James Moritz wrote: > Dear LF group, > > Rather good reception of GBR during an extended lunch break > here, in spite of high QRN. Rugby is only about 100 miles away, so > it should be! I did record .wav files of both transmissions if anyone > wants these, but since they run to 10s of megabytes, the problem > is how to send them. > > Cheers, Jim Moritz > 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20467 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 16:13:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 16:13:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 3992 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 16:12:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 29 May 2001 16:12:45 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154m0A-0005EN-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 17:05:46 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154m06-0005EI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 17:05:42 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 154lzV-0004yc-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 17:05:05 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from [147.197.130.252] (helo=mj9ar) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 154lzU-0002XH-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 17:05:04 +0100 From: "James Moritz" Organization: University of Hertfordshire To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 17:05:55 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: LF: 73/136 khz In-reply-to: <3B100166.8CA1854B@netscapeonline.co.uk> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Message-ID: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Mal, LF group, I can be QRV on 73kHz usually at a few hours notice. I expect the same is true for other stations active on the band. Mode can be CW or QRSS or anything else you fancy. I've worked GI3PDN and EI0CF cross-band, so it seems my signal and several others are audible in GI on 73kHz. The major difficulty on this band is QRM - both locally generated mains electrical noise and, in mainland UK, the noise sidebands from the Rugby TX on 73.25kHz. These sources tend to be intermittent to a greater or lesser extent, and at my QTH noise varies from almost nil to amazingly loud. QRN is also likely to be a problem at this time of year. So a QSO which fails one day will quite often succeed the next - a bit of perseverance is required, and if you are planning an expedition I would suggest spreading it over a few days. Let everyone know when you will be QRV - I'm sure you will get some QSOs. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16558 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 15:18:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 15:18:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 9386 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 15:18:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 29 May 2001 15:18:08 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154l7w-0004iU-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:09:44 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154l7v-0004iO-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:09:43 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 154l7L-0003kx-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:09:07 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from [147.197.130.252] (helo=mj9ar) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 154l7L-0001gJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:09:07 +0100 From: "James Moritz" Organization: University of Hertfordshire To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 16:09:58 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: LF: GBR 75th anniversary recordings X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Message-ID: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF group, Rather good reception of GBR during an extended lunch break here, in spite of high QRN. Rugby is only about 100 miles away, so it should be! I did record .wav files of both transmissions if anyone wants these, but since they run to 10s of megabytes, the problem is how to send them. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11028 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 15:14:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 15:14:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 17381 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 15:14:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 29 May 2001 15:14:24 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154l2Z-0004i0-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:04:11 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mailout03.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.81] helo=mailout03.sul.t-online.de) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154l2W-0004hv-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:04:09 +0100 Received: from fwd01.sul.t-online.de by mailout03.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 154l1p-0007wU-02; Tue, 29 May 2001 17:03:25 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from (0482183881-0001@[62.156.6.134]) by fwd01.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 154l1Z-0sSEU4C; Tue, 29 May 2001 17:03:09 +0200 From: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <68.f4aea6d.28440bea@aol.com> <154W7i-04fHRwC@fwd03.sul.t-online.com> Subject: LF: GBR time X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040304020701040302010303" Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 17:03:09 +0200 Message-ID: <154l1Z-0sSEU4C@fwd01.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0482183881-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040304020701040302010303 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, received the GBR special transmission ok with rst 599 (thats no "contest 599", its true), but look at the detached image. regards Uwe/dj8wx/jo43sv --------------040304020701040302010303 Content-Type: image/gif; name="GBR3.GIF" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="GBR3.GIF" R0lGODdhgAKUAfcAAAAAAAAAQAAAgAAA/wAgAAAgQAAggAAg/wBAAABAQABAgABA/wBgAABg QABggABg/wCAAACAQACAgACA/wCgAACgQACggACg/wDAAADAQADAgADA/wD/AAD/QAD/gAD/ /yAAACAAQCAAgCAA/yAgACAgQCAggCAg/yBAACBAQCBAgCBA/yBgACBgQCBggCBg/yCAACCA QCCAgCCA/yCgACCgQCCggCCg/yDAACDAQCDAgCDA/yD/ACD/QCD/gCD//0AAAEAAQEAAgEAA /0AgAEAgQEAggEAg/0BAAEBAQEBAgEBA/0BgAEBgQEBggEBg/0CAAECAQECAgECA/0CgAECg QECggECg/0DAAEDAQEDAgEDA/0D/AED/QED/gED//2AAAGAAQGAAgGAA/2AgAGAgQGAggGAg /2BAAGBAQGBAgGBA/2BgAGBgQGBggGBg/2CAAGCAQGCAgGCA/2CgAGCgQGCggGCg/2DAAGDA QGDAgGDA/2D/AGD/QGD/gGD//4AAAIAAQIAAgIAA/4AgAIAgQIAggIAg/4BAAIBAQIBAgIBA /4BgAIBgQIBggIBg/4CAAICAQICAgICA/4CgAICgQICggICg/4DAAIDAQIDAgIDA/4D/AID/ 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+qif+qq/+qzf+i6u//qwH/uyP/u0X/u2f/u4n/u6v/u83/u+//vAH/zCP/zEX/zGf/zIn/zK v/zMLN/8zv/80B/90j/91F/91n/92J/92r/93N/93v/94B/+4j/+5F/+5n/+6J/+e+q//uzf /u7//vAf//I///Rf//Z///if//q///zf/wDxT+BAggUNHkSYUOFChg0dPoQYUeJEihUtXsSY UeNGjh09fgQZUuRIkiVNnkSZUuVKli1dvoQZU+ZMmjVt3sSZU+dOnj19/gQaVOhQokWNHkWa VOlSpk2dPoUaVWrqVKpVrV7FmlXrVq5dvX4FG1bsWLJlzZ5Fm1btWrZt3b6FG1fuXLp17d7F m1fvXr59/f4FHFjwYMKFDR9GnFjxYsaNHT+GHFnyZMqVLV/GnFnzZs6dPX8GHVr0aNKlTZ9G nVr1atatXb+GQh1b9mzatW3fxp1b927evX3/Bh5c+HDixY0fR55c+XLmzZ0/hx5d+nTq1a1f x55d+3bu3b1/Bx9e/Hjy5c2fR59e/Tl69u3dv4cfX/58+vXt38efX/9+/v39/wcwQAEHJLBA Aw9EMEEFF2SwQQcfhDBCCSeksEILL8QwQw0yN+SwQw8/BDFEEUcksUQTT0QxRRVXZLFFF1+E MUYZZ6SxRhtvxDFHHXfksUcffwQySCEthySySCOPRDJJJZdkskknn4QySimnpLJKK6/EMkst t+SySy+/BDNMMccks0wzKM9EM00112SzTTffhDNOOeeks04778QzTz335LNPP/8ENFBBByW0 UEMlD0U0UUUXZbRRRx+FNFJJJ6W0UksvxTRTTTfltFNPPwU1VFFHJQy1VFNPRTVVVVe1NCAA Ow== --------------040304020701040302010303-- From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9107 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 14:55:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 14:55:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 2445 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 14:54:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 29 May 2001 14:54:56 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154kkg-0004Wf-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 15:45:42 +0100 Received: from ds-img-2.compuserve.com ([149.174.206.135] helo=spdmgaab.compuserve.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154kkK-0004Sc-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 15:45:20 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spdmgaab.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id KAA18680 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 10:44:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 10:43:35 -0400 From: "Holger 'Geri', DK8KW" Subject: LF: GBR reception in DL: ufb To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: <200105291043_MC2-D374-D884@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello YLs and OMs, I left work for 30 minutes ("I have an urgent appointment" ... being a sales person an easy excuse for me to leave the office ;) and set up my portable LF receiving station besides the german Autobahn on a parking area. I used my FT-817 and a Datong converter and a "wet string" (7m of plain wire hanging in the trees) and received the 12.00 UTC GBR message with 57/8. Nice to hear plain Morse down there again. Best 73 Geri, DK8KW (W1KW) From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20534 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 14:08:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 14:08:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 13231 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 14:07:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 29 May 2001 14:07:49 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154k1l-00042a-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:59:17 +0100 Received: from yoda.han.telia.se ([131.116.44.27] helo=tms1.han.telia.se) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154k1j-00042V-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:59:15 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by tms1.han.telia.se (8.9.3 (PHNE_18546)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA13803 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 15:58:12 +0200 (METDST) X-OpenMail-Hops: 1 Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:58:11 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: LF: GBR reception MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Karl-Arne.A.Markstrom@telia.se To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline; Creation-Date=Tue, 29 May 2001 15:58:11 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Managed to catch GBR 16 kHz at the second transmission here at work: QSA 4 QRK 5 on a Standard Radio CR91 300 Hz IF with AA300 active antenna Copied the message with some initial difficulty on the computer keyboard, did not have time to find a typewriter... otherwise that would really have brought back memories from old Swedish Army R/O days. 73/ Karl-Arne Markstrom SM0AOM =================== Senior Radio Engineer Maritime Networks Telia Mobile AB Nacka Strand Sweden Phone +46-8-6017171, Mobile phone +46-70-6636575 Fax +46-8-6017959 From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27198 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 14:06:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 14:06:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 11985 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 14:06:07 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 29 May 2001 14:06:07 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154jza-000428-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:57:02 +0100 Received: from whirlwind.netspace.net.au ([203.10.110.76]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154jzY-000423-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:57:01 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from fred1 (dialup-t1-137.Hobart.netspace.net.au [210.15.196.137]) by whirlwind.netspace.net.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4TDuIc02341 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 23:56:20 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010529235612.00932530@pop.netspace.net.au> X-Sender: vk7ro@pop.netspace.net.au (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:56:12 +1000 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Richard Rogers" Subject: Re: LF: GBR is 75 In-reply-to: <3B0BAE04.21064.26FF24@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >> For those with an interest in VLF reception please listen to 16kHz (yes 16 >> not 60kHz!) on Tuesday 29th May 2001 at 1200GMT and 1345GMT." > I could just hear GBR. They finished at 1346z with "taking place on the river clyde" if my two guessed letters in that phrase are correct. 73, Ric, VK7RO From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20028 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 13:53:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 13:53:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 2746 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 13:52:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 29 May 2001 13:52:37 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154jiL-0003sw-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:39:13 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from jazzfm.netcomuk.co.uk ([194.42.248.66]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154jiH-0003sr-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:39:10 +0100 Received: from jazzfm.com [192.168.102.5] by jazzfm.netcomuk.co.uk [127.0.0.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.8.5.0.R) for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:39:44 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from JazzFM-Message_Server by jazzfm.com with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:38:02 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:37:56 +0100 From: "Martin Charman" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: GBR is 75 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Return-Path: Martin@jazzfm.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Anyone doing a .WAV file for those of us at the salt mines? 73 Martin G4FKK From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3250 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 13:42:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 13:42:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 24227 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 13:42:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 29 May 2001 13:42:15 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154jbP-0003sN-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:32:03 +0100 Received: from lepidachrosite.lion-access.net ([212.19.217.3]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154jbN-0003sI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:32:01 +0100 Received: from w8k3f0 (PetraVerkaik.Babes.dialin.freeler.nl [212.26.214.19]) by lepidachrosite.lion-access.net (I-Lab) with SMTP id 7D93DCB04B for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:30:18 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <000a01c0e844$2b8aa2e0$13d61ad4@w8k3f0> From: "Dick Rollema" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: GBR is 75 Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:34:15 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
To All from PA0SE
 
GBR came in with a very strong signal on 16kHz. At 1200 GMT I received the following text:
 
v v v de gbr   v v v de gbr    vvv de gbr
attention all ships and submarines
this is a special transmission to mark the centenary of submarine operation by her majestys royal navy to celebrate the achievements of the submarine service and the security it has brought to the united kingdom
tribute is paid to the dedication and professionalism of submariners both past and present and particularly to those who have given their lives in the service of the nation
this transmission also celebrates the 75 years of radio broadcasts to ships and submarines from the gbr transmitter
gbr has maintained an almost unbroken service since january 1926 providing a vital link to the royal navy across the globe
tribute is also paid to those responsible for the operation and technology that has maintained the service
her majestys royal navy is pleased to welcome the submarines and their crews from the naval services of overseas nations to share in this unique submarine centenary celebration taking place in the river clyde
de gbr ar
 
73, Dick, PA0SE
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12464 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 13:38:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 13:38:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 4521 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 13:38:14 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 29 May 2001 13:38:14 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154jY0-0003lf-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:28:32 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: High Received: from asterix.tee.gr ([212.70.193.140]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154jXv-0003la-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:28:28 +0100 Received: from teeserver.tee.gr (teeserver.tee.gr [212.70.193.130]) by asterix.tee.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f4TDRgn00129 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:27:42 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from odin ([212.70.200.73]) by teeserver.tee.gr (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id GE3MRI00.FY4; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:28:30 +0300 Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010529162330.0068b928@aurora.eexi.gr> X-Sender: sv1xv@aurora.eexi.gr (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) X-Priority: 1 Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 16:23:30 +0300 To: wun@qth.net From: "Costas Krallis" Subject: Re: VLF: GBR 16 kHz Cc: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, lowfer@qth.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > Fine! GBR transmission received well in Athens, Greece with > an S9 signal (and S7-8 ambient noise...). RX: Icom IC-706 + > home made converter, ANT: Vertical, 7 meters + 25 meters > RG-58/U cable. > ATTENTION Team Logs: > Here is the log for Team Logs: > > 16.0 GBR: Royal Navy Rugby, 1000, CW, Special transmission > to celebrate 100 years of submarine service and 75 > years of GBR, 29/May/2001. (CK) Ooops!, time is 1200 UTC. Costas 73 Costas SV1XV +------------------------------------------------------------+ | Costas Krallis SV1XV * LOC KM18UA | | P.O.Box 3066 * E-Mail: sv1xv@eexi.gr | | GR-10210 Athens * PGP key: 0x3BDBBC34 | | GREECE * http://www.qsl.net/sv1xv/ | | * http://w4u.eexi.gr/~sv1xv/ | +------------------------------------------------------------+ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28777 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 12:56:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 12:56:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 22909 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 12:55:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 29 May 2001 12:55:42 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154ivO-0003Tr-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:48:38 +0100 Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.176] helo=protactinium) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154ivM-0003Tk-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:48:37 +0100 Received: from [62.7.58.88] (helo=default) by protactinium with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 154iuh-0007JY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:47:55 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c0e83d$99566900$583a073e@default> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: for RX builders Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:34:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, I have just found out that Mainline Surplus still has some Plessey SL6440 high performance mixers available. I believe these are rather difficult to obtain these days, as they went out of production some time ago. Order code is 12-0274 and the price is £5 for 2off surplus@mainlinegroup.co.uk Tel 0870 241 0810 Cheers de Alan G3NYK Alan.Melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24611 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 12:45:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 12:45:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 10434 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 12:45:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 29 May 2001 12:45:19 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154imW-0003Ly-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:39:28 +0100 Received: from carbon.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.92]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154imV-0003Lt-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:39:27 +0100 Received: from [62.7.20.231] (helo=dave) by carbon.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 154ilu-0001qh-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:38:50 +0100 Message-ID: <000e01c0e83c$88e402e0$e714073e@dave> From: "Dave Sergeant" To: "rsgb_lf_group" References: <3B0BAE04.21064.26FF24@localhost> Subject: LF: Re: GBR is 75 Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 13:39:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: If you missed the 1200z transmission note that it ended with the line: 'This message will be repeated at 1330 gmt' ie. NOT 1345 as advertised. I have a full transcript, but won't spoil your enjoyment. GBR 25dB over s9 on my bit of string. Cheers Dave G3YMC dsergeant@btinternet.com dsergeant@iee.org http://www.dsergeant.btinternet.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11336 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 12:38:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 12:38:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 3290 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 12:38:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 29 May 2001 12:38:25 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154icb-0003EJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:29:13 +0100 Received: from ewey-rwcmta.excite.com ([198.3.99.191] helo=ewey.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154icZ-0003ED-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:29:12 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from bronty ([199.172.153.112]) by ewey.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20010529122749.PGLL18478.ewey.excite.com@bronty> for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 05:27:49 -0700 Message-ID: <26721534.991139269019.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 05:27:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "john sexton" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: CW transmission from GBR to mark centenary of submarine service MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 62.253.64.5 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All, Received from GBR on 16kHz today 29 May 2001 at 12.00 GMT John, G4CNN VVV de GBR Attention all ships and submarines This is a special transmission to mark the centenary of submarine operation by her Majestys Royal Navy to celebrate the achievements of the submarine service and the security it has brought to the United Kingdom Tribute is paid to the dedication and professionalism of submariners both past and present and particularly to those who have given their lives in the service of the nation This transmission also celebrates the 75 years of radio broadcasts to ships and submarines from the GBR transmitter GBR has maintained an almost unbroken service since January 1926 providing a vital link to the Royal Navy across the globe Tribute is also paid to those responsible for the operation and technology that has maintained this service Her Majestys Royal Navy is pleased to welcome the submarines and their crews from the naval services of overseas nations to share in this unique submarine centenary celebration taking place in the river Clyde de GBR + This message will be repeated at 1330 gmt _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23493 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 12:36:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 12:36:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 2944 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 12:36:08 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 29 May 2001 12:36:08 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154ia2-0003E2-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:26:34 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: High Received: from asterix.tee.gr ([212.70.193.140]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154iZx-0003Dx-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:26:30 +0100 Received: from teeserver.tee.gr (teeserver.tee.gr [212.70.193.130]) by asterix.tee.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f4TCQvb09850 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 15:26:57 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from odin ([212.70.201.136]) by teeserver.tee.gr (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id GE3JWA00.GYB; Tue, 29 May 2001 15:26:34 +0300 Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010529152513.0068b8b8@aurora.eexi.gr> X-Sender: sv1xv@aurora.eexi.gr (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) X-Priority: 1 Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:25:13 +0300 To: wun@qth.net From: "Costas Krallis" Subject: VLF: GBR 16 kHz Cc: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, lowfer@qth.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Fine! GBR transmission received well in Athens, Greece with an S9 signal (and S7-8 ambient noise...). RX: Icom IC-706 + home made converter, ANT: Vertical, 7 meters + 25 meters RG-58/U cable. Here is the log for Team Logs: 16.0 GBR: Royal Navy Rugby, 1000, CW, Special transmission to celebrate 100 years of submarine service and 75 years of GBR, 29/May/2001. (CK) 73 Costas SV1XV +------------------------------------------------------------+ | Costas Krallis SV1XV * LOC KM18UA | | P.O.Box 3066 * E-Mail: sv1xv@eexi.gr | | GR-10210 Athens * PGP key: 0x3BDBBC34 | | GREECE * http://www.qsl.net/sv1xv/ | | * http://w4u.eexi.gr/~sv1xv/ | +------------------------------------------------------------+ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22418 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 12:35:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 12:35:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 427 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 12:35:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 29 May 2001 12:35:16 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154ia9-0003E9-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:26:41 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from imo-r09.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.105]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154ia7-0003E4-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:26:39 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id l.a2.14b38a93 (18412) for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 08:25:54 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 08:25:54 EDT Subject: LF: GBR perfect signal To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows DE sub 217 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hi all,

> vvv de gbr attention all ships ...
...
> her majestys royal navy is pleased to welcome the submarines
> and their crews from the naval services
> of overseas nations to share in this unique submarine centenary
> celebration taking place in the river clyde   de gbr AR

> this message will be repeated at 1330 gmt

Fb ! Nice to hear such a clear transmission in morse code again.

73 Wolf. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12880 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 11:04:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 11:04:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 13997 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 11:04:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 29 May 2001 11:04:30 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154hDn-0002UZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:59:31 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154hDm-0002UU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:59:30 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 154hD7-0002gO-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:58:49 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from [147.197.130.252] (helo=mj9ar) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 154hD7-00043H-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:58:49 +0100 From: "James Moritz" Organization: University of Hertfordshire To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:59:40 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: LF: Field effect versus bipolar transistors In-reply-to: <001001c0e821$a6c3f9c0$a1d51ad4@w8k3f0> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Message-ID: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Dick, LF group, Not too sure about linear amplifiers, but FETs are certainly better for the switching - type LF PAs that are currently popular. The reason for this is similar to those given for the use of MOSFETs in switching power supplies, which have much in common. These are: -Switching speed an order of magnitude greater, giving lower switching losses -The base current drive waveform must be carefully controlled for optimum performance from bipolars, while MOSFETs only require an "on-off" square wave from a low impedance source. -MOSFETs do not suffer from "secondary breakdown" phenomena, which means that the transient voltages and currents in a bipolar PA need to be more carefully controlled to prevent failure due to the formation of hot spots within the transistor. This makes MOSFETs more robust against spikey switching waveforms. The situation seems more complicated with "linear" amplifier designs. Significant problems arise because a linear amplifier inherently dissipates power, wheras most modern power MOSFETs are designed to operate as high efficiency switches with low power dissipation. This results in devices with high current and voltage ratings being produced in small packages, which are unable to dissipate the heat produced in a linear application, and so must be operated at much below their ratings. This in turn produces problems with biasing - a much-vaunted advantage of MOSFETs is the negative temperature coefficient of the drain current vs. gate bias voltage characteristic; the current falls as the device gets hotter, so supposedly ensuring stable biasing, easy parallel operation etc, etc. In fact, this only applies when the device is operating relatively close to it's maximum current; when used at lower currents, as you are forced to do by the power dissipation issue, the tempco is in fact positive, and thermal runaway can occur as with bipolars. The Mosfets designed for audio PAs are much better in this respect, but cost more, and are only available in relatively low ratings. Also, there seems to be a dearth of reasonably high frequency, high power, low cost bipolar devices, whilst MOSFETs get cheaper all the time, and are inherently fast enough without needing to go to expensive, specialised RF devices I think the main problem with MOSFET PAs at the moment is that not all design issues have been addressed properly yet. For example, the transformer push-pull linear and class D designs are prone to produce big voltage spikes, which mean death for any PA device. The Decca circuit and derrivatives demonstrate that robust and reliable designs can be achieved, however. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12802 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 10:56:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 10:56:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 15194 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 10:56:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 29 May 2001 10:56:06 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154h59-0002U4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:50:35 +0100 Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.3]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154h53-0002Tz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:50:30 +0100 Received: from xtr743187 ([202.27.178.65]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20010529105041.UIIJ697749.mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz@xtr743187> for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 22:50:41 +1200 Message-ID: <004501c0e82d$6bbe9b80$73b51bca@xtr743187> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <001001c0e821$a6c3f9c0$a1d51ad4@w8k3f0> Subject: LF: Re: Field effect versus bipolar transistors Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:49:01 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Dick and others,
 
I have made several PAs for 180 kHz, mostly with bipolar power transistors.  Down this way we also have SSB nets, so at least historically, most PAs were designed for similar type of service as on HF, namely to be able to be biased to cater for linear operation, or thrashing along unbiased in Class C.
 
For linear service, there is very little difference between bipolars and power MOSFETs, both dump about 50% of input as heat!
 
In the early days we thought that "line output transistors" like BU508A (1500 volt rating) were suitable for PAs, but we subsequently found out that they have rather high saturation voltage, so efficiency is worse than bipolars with 450 or 500 volt ratings.
 
When it comes to a "digital" PA, for on-off keying, dual frequency keying or BPSK, then it has a different set of design objectives.  The final can be very efficient (squarewave at full drive) and the key clicks can be controlled to acceptable levels by envelope control of the driver (or pre-driver).
 
Bipolar switching transistors intended to work from rectified 230 volt mains in switch mode power supplies have been found to work very nicely in N+N pushpull finals on LF with a 100 volt rail.  I can produce 1 kW output from 2+2 TO3 bipolars, at 180 kHz, with 110 volt rail.
 
Having said that, my next final is going to be a power MOSFET job, with TC2247 driver chips.  I have seen a pushpull final made by Ric VK7RO that has efficiency of over 90%.  That is better than I can get from my bipolar final.
 
I rate efficiency as a more desirable parameter than drive.  I have an SSB modulator driver (a modified TS-850 and 0.5 ppm TCXO master oscillator) so I can use sound card drive for dual frequency keying, with envelope shaping.  I'm seeking to provide 1 kW out from a power MOSFET final that runs cool enough that I can confidently leave it for unattended running, for long sessions of QRSS, with natural convection cooling.  I can't do that with my bipolar final.
 
73, Bob
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5882 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 10:27:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 10:27:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 25660 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 10:27:10 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 29 May 2001 10:27:10 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154ga0-00027X-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:18:24 +0100 Received: from mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154gZz-00027S-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:18:23 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id MAA1647310 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 12:17:47 +0200 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20010529111833.21872324@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> X-Sender: pb623250@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:18:33 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: Re: LF: Field effect versus bipolar transistors In-reply-to: <001001c0e821$a6c3f9c0$a1d51ad4@w8k3f0> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello Dick, The power FET's that are used in LF-Pa's are less vulnerable than most bipolar power transistors. These FET's are designed for switched power supplies and can withstand quite a lot of mistreatment if some basic rules are observed. I am still using the same FET's for the past 3 years in a class D PA (fingers crossed). I believe that most problems with these FET's occur on linear PA's, as you try to make a linear amp with devices that are optimized for switching. Main advantages of these power FET's are : - fast switching (= high efficiency in class D or E) - low 'on voltage' (= low heating of the device) - far less sensitive to 'thermal breakdown' (compared to bipolar) - withstand rather high voltages (400V or more for most devices) - (almost) powerless drive - cheap 73, Rik ON7YD At 11:27 29/05/01 +0200, you wrote: >To All from PA0SE > >Most of the designs for high power transmitters for the LF bands I have seen use power-FETs in the final. Examples are the designs by G0MRF and G3YXM in The low frequency experimenter's handbook. But we all know from experience that FETs are very vulnerable (extremely fast fuses). Would not power bipolar transistors be more robust? What are the advantages of FETs over bipolars? >FETs do not require real power to drive them. But for stability and maybe other reasons rather low value resistors are often connected from gate to common; this together with the higher voltage to drive a FET than a bipolar transistor could well mean that the actual power to drive a FET amplifier is higher than for a bipolar design. > >The Handbook features a design by DJ1ZB using complementary darlington-pairs (the emitter arrows in some of the transistor symbols point the wrong way!). But they produce 100W only. >I think I have seen higher power bipolar transistor transmitters in Break-In. Perhaps the ZL boys can comment. > >If anyone has evaluated the pros and cons of field effect and bipolar transistors for high power LF transmitters I would be grateful to hear them. > >73, Dick, PA0SE > >Attachment Converted: "C:\EUDORA\ATTACH\LFFielde.htm" > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1968 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 10:25:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 10:25:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 23764 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 10:24:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 29 May 2001 10:24:35 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154gV5-00026n-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:13:19 +0100 Received: from fortune-rwcmta.excite.com ([198.3.99.203] helo=fortune.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154gV1-00026i-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:13:15 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from bronty ([199.172.153.112]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20010529101118.YQTD4228.fortune.excite.com@bronty> for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 03:11:18 -0700 Message-ID: <24896791.991131078390.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 03:11:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "john sexton" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re2: VLF Reception MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 62.253.64.5 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Wolf, et.al. GBR (16kHz) went off air at 10.00 UTC this morning and sent its call sign in CW at 10.04. Now all is quiet, so stand by. I tried out the Software VLF receiver yesterday, and it worked straight away. Great fun! However I found it was too sensitive. I had to turn the Sound card input gain down to zero. Also the filter probably needs adjusting for MSK, it tended to ring but my efforts to change it only made it worse - don't know what I am doing, hi! One time I turned off "Start Sound Thread" and couldn't get any sound until I re-started my PC! I can see all the stations the others show, but not the ones in between, which my conventional Rx shows. It is good, but not as good as my VLF Rx (Rennato's latest design) plus Loop antenna. Maybe, I need to learn how to use Spectrum Lab properly first though! The station on 18.1 is RDL and is definitely Russian. I am assured by Trond (Alfalab) that the station on 18.3 is not Le Blanc (HWU) and is probably also of Russian origin. These stations, including the one on 20.9 are not on the air permanently, whereas GBR normally is. Alpha is off air at present and has been for some time. 73, John, G4CNN _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14318 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 09:35:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 29 May 2001 09:35:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 14735 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 09:34:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 29 May 2001 09:34:51 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154fkA-0001jq-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 10:24:50 +0100 Received: from rubellite.lion-access.net ([212.19.217.4]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154fk6-0001jl-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 10:24:46 +0100 Received: from w8k3f0 (PacMan.Games.dialin.freeler.nl [212.26.213.161]) by rubellite.lion-access.net (I-Lab) with SMTP id 3AE7D27F8 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 09:23:40 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <001001c0e821$a6c3f9c0$a1d51ad4@w8k3f0> From: "Dick Rollema" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: Field effect versus bipolar transistors Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:27:09 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
To All from PA0SE
 
Most of the designs for high power transmitters for the LF bands I have seen use power-FETs in the final. Examples are the designs by G0MRF and G3YXM in The low frequency experimenter's handbook. But we all know from experience that FETs are very vulnerable (extremely fast fuses). Would not power bipolar transistors  be more robust?  What are the advantages of FETs over bipolars? 
FETs do not require real power to drive them. But for stability and maybe other reasons rather low value resistors are often connected from gate to common; this together with the higher voltage to drive a FET than a bipolar transistor could well mean that the actual power to drive a FET amplifier is higher than for a bipolar design.
 
The Handbook features a design by DJ1ZB using complementary darlington-pairs (the emitter arrows in some of the transistor symbols point the wrong way!). But they produce 100W only.
I think I have seen higher power bipolar transistor transmitters in Break-In.  Perhaps the ZL boys can comment.
 
If anyone has evaluated the pros and cons of field effect and bipolar transistors for high power LF transmitters I would be grateful to hear them.
 
73, Dick, PA0SE
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29786 invoked from network); 28 May 2001 23:14:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2001 23:14:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 29573 invoked from network); 28 May 2001 23:14:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 28 May 2001 23:14:11 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154W8O-0005cR-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 00:09:12 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mailout01.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.80] helo=mailout01.sul.t-online.de) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154W8M-0005cM-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 00:09:11 +0100 Received: from fwd03.sul.t-online.de by mailout01.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 154W7n-00076u-00; Tue, 29 May 2001 01:08:35 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from (0482183881-0001@[193.159.25.207]) by fwd03.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 154W7i-04fHRwC; Tue, 29 May 2001 01:08:30 +0200 From: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <68.f4aea6d.28440bea@aol.com> Subject: LF: Re: VLF Reception X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------070002030608030706060101" Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 01:08:30 +0200 Message-ID: <154W7i-04fHRwC@fwd03.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0482183881-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070002030608030706060101 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DL4YHF@aol.com schrieb: > Hi Uwe and group, > > DJ8WX's recent waterfall image certainly shows the French Navy's signal on > 18.3. Their modulation is indeed a bit broader than GBR. For comparison, a > small spectrum plot from monday evening is attached, range 15.5 to 21 kHz. > > The narrow peak left (15.625kHz) is my neighbour's TV (on the other side of a > wall, 3 meters away from the RX antenna), on 16.0kHz GBR clearly visible > (with ferrite antenna in resonance), 18.1 two peaks from Russia, 18.3kHz > French Navy (also visible on Uwe's waterfall), 20.9 possibly also from France > (MSK). > > Have a good reception on 16kHz tomorrow, > > 73's Wolf. > > > Hi Wolf agn es all, for comparison purposes I detach an image of same spectrum-width as urs (15.5 to 21kHz). the russian signal normally on 18.1kHz is ZAN (not on air). will GBR be as strong as in usual mode in test mode A1A ? regards Uwe/dj8wx --------------070002030608030706060101 Content-Type: image/gif; name="SPECLAB4.GIF" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="SPECLAB4.GIF" R0lGODdhgAKUAfcAAAAAAAAAQAAAgAAA/wAgAAAgQAAggAAg/wBAAABAQABAgABA/wBgAABg 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id 154TRZ-0004Hd-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 21:16:49 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from imo-m10.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.165]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154TRY-0004HY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 21:16:48 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-m10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id l.68.f4aea6d (4236) for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 16:15:38 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <68.f4aea6d.28440bea@aol.com> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 16:15:38 EDT Subject: LF: Re2: VLF Reception To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------090202080709000502010405" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows DE sub 217 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090202080709000502010405 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Uwe and group,

DJ8WX's recent waterfall image certainly shows the French Navy's signal on
18.3. Their modulation is indeed a bit broader than GBR. For comparison, a
small spectrum plot from monday evening is attached, range 15.5 to 21 kHz.

The narrow peak left (15.625kHz) is my neighbour's TV (on the other side of a
wall, 3 meters away from the RX antenna), on 16.0kHz GBR clearly visible
(with ferrite antenna in resonance), 18.1 two peaks from Russia, 18.3kHz
French Navy (also visible on Uwe's waterfall), 20.9 possibly also from France
(MSK).

Have a good reception on 16kHz tomorrow,

73's Wolf.

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154RV0-0003JD-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 19:12:14 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mailout01.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.80] helo=mailout01.sul.t-online.de) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154RUz-0003J8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 19:12:13 +0100 Received: from fwd05.sul.t-online.de by mailout01.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 154RUP-0004bV-04; Mon, 28 May 2001 20:11:37 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from (0482183881-0001@[62.157.30.206]) by fwd05.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 154RTz-24w0mmC; Mon, 28 May 2001 20:11:11 +0200 From: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <9b.15a94191.2842c489@aol.com> Subject: Re: LF: Modulation pattern on 16kHz ? X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------070404030300000804050601" Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 20:11:11 +0200 Message-ID: <154RTz-24w0mmC@fwd05.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0482183881-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070404030300000804050601 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DL4YHF@aol.com schrieb: > Hi all, > > During some RX experiments in the VLF spectrum a few minutes ago, using a > bundle of ferrite rods and lot of wire as antenna. There was.. > - a quite strong signal on 16kHz, 100 Hz wide; > - an other signal (stronger) on 18.3kHz, more than 200 Hz wide; > - the Russian Navy(?) on 18.1kHz, about 100 Hz wide with a typical FSK > pattern (transmitter switched off after the transmission). > > An old list says on 16.0kHz is "Rugby RTTY 75", another says its "RTTY 200". > But the signal on 16kHz looks more like a well-shaped PSK signal to me. Or is > it just a very stable QRM in my neighbourhood.. > > Any information available on this reflector ? If the signal on 16.0kHz is > really PSK, where will the planned CW transmission be on Tuesday afternoon ? > > Thanks in advance for any info, > 73's from Wolf DL4YHF. > > Hi Wolf es all, pse do compare ur image with mine, detached. regards Uwe/dj8wx jo43sv --------------070404030300000804050601 Content-Type: image/gif; name="SPECLAB3.GIF" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="SPECLAB3.GIF" R0lGODdhgAKUAfcAAAAAAAAAQAAAgAAA/wAgAAAgQAAggAAg/wBAAABAQABAgABA/wBgAABg QABggABg/wCAAACAQACAgACA/wCgAACgQACggACg/wDAAADAQADAgADA/wD/AAD/QAD/gAD/ /yAAACAAQCAAgCAA/yAgACAgQCAggCAg/yBAACBAQCBAgCBA/yBgACBgQCBggCBg/yCAACCA QCCAgCCA/yCgACCgQCCggCCg/yDAACDAQCDAgCDA/yD/ACD/QCD/gCD//0AAAEAAQEAAgEAA /0AgAEAgQEAggEAg/0BAAEBAQEBAgEBA/0BgAEBgQEBggEBg/0CAAECAQECAgECA/0CgAECg QECggECg/0DAAEDAQEDAgEDA/0D/AED/QED/gED//2AAAGAAQGAAgGAA/2AgAGAgQGAggGAg /2BAAGBAQGBAgGBA/2BgAGBgQGBggGBg/2CAAGCAQGCAgGCA/2CgAGCgQGCggGCg/2DAAGDA 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/diQHdmSPdmUXdmWfdmYndmavdmc3dme/dk5oB3aoj3apF3apn3aqJ3aqr3arN3arv3asB3b sj3btF3btn3buJ3bur3bvN3bvv3bwB3cwj3cxF3cM8Z93Mid3Mq93Mzd3M793NAd3dI93dRd 3dZ93did3dq93dzd3d793eAd3uI93uRd3uZ93i7ond7qvd7s3d7u/d7wHd/yPd/0Xd/2fd/4 nd/6vd/83d/+/d8AHuACPuAEXuAGKn7gCJ7gCr7gDN7gDv7gEB7hEj7hFF7hFn7hGJ7hGr7h HN7hHv7hIB7iIik+4iRe4iZ+4iie4iq+4ize4i7+4jAe4zI+4zRe4zZ+4zie4zq+4zze4yc+ /uNAHuRCPuREXuRGfuRInuRKvuRM3uRO/uRQHuVSPuVUXuVWfuUkWJ7lWr7lXN7lXv7lYB7m Yj7mZF7mZn7maJ7mar7mbN7mbv7mInAe53I+53Re53Z+53ie53q+53ze537+54Ae6II+6IRe 6IYjfuiInuiKvuiM3uiO/uiQHumSPumUXumWfumYnumavumc3ukfnv7poB7qoj7qpF7qpn7q qJ7qqr7qrN7qrv7qsB7rsiA+67Re67Z+67ie67q+67ze677+68Ae7MI+7MRe7MZ+7BzInuzK vuzM3uzO/uzQHu3SPu3UXu3Wfu3Ynu3aDb7t3N7t3v7t4A4VAQEAOw== --------------070404030300000804050601-- From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15745 invoked from network); 28 May 2001 16:58:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2001 16:58:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 17161 invoked from network); 28 May 2001 16:57:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 28 May 2001 16:57:35 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154QCm-0002iz-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 17:49:20 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from imo-d07.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.39]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154QCk-0002iu-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 17:49:18 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id l.54.1523ede1 (17230) for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 12:48:09 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <54.1523ede1.2843db49@aol.com> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:48:09 EDT Subject: LF: GBR Info - Thanks ! To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows DE sub 217 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hi Alan, Andy, John  and the group,

Thanks for the quick response to my question about the 16kHz-signal.

I must have missed the information formerly posted about MSK on 16kHz on this
reflector, but now I got the picture ;-). As the signal is MSK, it is a
special kind of FSK (modulation index 0.5) but also a special kind of PSK,
and it once was RTTY some time ago.

Also ok on the 'temporary mode switch' from MSK to CW on Tuesday afternoon.
For those who don't have the posting, here it comes again (originally relayed
by G3XDV from G4KHU):
> "Listeners may be aware that the UK Royal Navy are celebrating the
> Centenary of the Royal Navy Submarine service with a gathering of UK and
> overseas submarines in the Clyde. This year is also the 75th anniversary
> of operation of the GBR transmitter (Rugby).
> As part of this celebration 'It is hoped' that a special A1A Morse code
> transmission from the GBR long wave transmitter will be made.
> For those with an interest in VLF reception please listen to 16kHz (yes 16
> not 60kHz!) on Tuesday 29th May 2001 at 1200GMT and 1345GMT."

--

To John G4CNN, asking about PC-based reception below 10kHz:

Hmm.. well.. the system does receive below 10kHz but I don't know how good. I
don't have a commercial receiver which goes below 10kHz, so I cannot compare
my RX system to  a professional RX. I don't even know a (reliable) signal
between 1 and 10kHz to listen for. The RX antenna is a heavy bundle of 19
ferrite rods, insulated from each other to avoid currents in the
semiconducting material, and 400 turns of wire. Total inductivity about 30
millihenry, parallel caps for resonance between 15..20kHz and a high-current
JFET as impedance converter (no voltage gain required for the MIC input of
the PC). With more C's shunted it will work on even lower frequencies, but
not very good I suppose.


73, Wolf, DL4YHF.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10098 invoked from network); 28 May 2001 10:18:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2001 10:18:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 19138 invoked from network); 28 May 2001 10:17:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 28 May 2001 10:17:55 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154JuE-00083R-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 11:05:46 +0100 Received: from fortune-rwcmta.excite.com ([198.3.99.203] helo=fortune.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154JuD-00083M-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 11:05:45 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from bronty ([199.172.153.112]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20010528100414.SLXE4228.fortune.excite.com@bronty> for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 03:04:14 -0700 Message-ID: <21981396.991044254134.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 03:03:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "john sexton" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Modulation pattern on 16kHz ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 62.253.64.5 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Wolf, GBR actually on 15.975 kHz transmits MSK. The traffic is encrypted but looks to me mostly like Wx reports. If you look at it long enough you can see repeating patterns in it. It is my understanding that they will stop and transmit A1A at the two times specified. I have lost my note, but the first is at 12.00 utc on 29 May, i.e. tomorrow. The Russian Navy has been transmitting on 18.1 kHz in the manner you describe, but there are also transmissions on 18.3kHz which are probably down to them although this frequency is nominally allocated to France. Sandwiched in between is VTX3 which transmits plain unvarnished CW. My loop brings in GBR at 30 dB over S9, but it is relatively close here, so not surprising. I was most intrigued by your software receiver and plan to try it out, but not until after tomorrow's transmission for which I will use conventional stuff. More interesting do you have any success at good reception below 10kHz? If so how? 73, John, G4CNN _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17408 invoked from network); 28 May 2001 10:16:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2001 10:16:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 18367 invoked from network); 28 May 2001 10:16:15 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 28 May 2001 10:16:15 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154JrS-00083K-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 11:02:54 +0100 Received: from k2.pncl.co.uk ([212.35.226.183]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154JrR-00083F-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 11:02:53 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from 233.pncl.co.uk (152.235.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.uk [212.35.235.152]) by k2.pncl.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4SA2Hf06307 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 11:02:18 +0100 Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010528105955.00a34d20@mail.pncl.co.uk> X-Sender: blanch@mail.pncl.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 11:02:17 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Walter Blanchard" Subject: Re: LF: Unid non-LORAN transmission at 100 kHz ? In-reply-to: <00f501c0e6ab$5b64c260$682cfd3e@compaq> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 13:48 27/05/01 Sunday, you wrote: >Is anybody on the list hearing this signal or has Trond as he suspects >got a local problem? > >73s Tracey > >-----Original Message----- >From: Trond Jacobsen >Date: 27 May 2001 13:37 >Subject: Unid non-LORAN transmission at 100 kHz ? > > > >At the moment is there a strong unid signal just below 100 kHz. When >first detected it could be best described as a very slow FSK signal > mark frequency 99.8 kHz / frequency shift 475 Hz ), after a short break >this changed to steady, but reduced, carrier at the space frequency, - >with non-regular spaced pulses of carrier at the mark frequency. This >later signal show after first examination some similarity to the earlier >reported unid pulses at 115.2 kHz. The pulses at 99.8 kHz has both an >audible and visible 100 Hz overtone, > > > >These signals at 99.8 kHz are absolutely not part of the ordinary LORAN >splatter. Recordings and spectrograms of both types of signals, ( FSK >look-alike and pulses ) available on request. > > > >Anyone else out there who receives this ? Or have I got myself a very >anoying local source of industrial generated QRM ? > > > >best regards > > > >Trond at ALFLAB, Halden in Norway Very likely, yes!!!! Absolutely nothing here last 24 hours between 82.7 and 115 kHz. (except Loran of course) Walter G3JKV. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13874 invoked from network); 28 May 2001 09:48:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2001 09:48:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 23030 invoked from network); 28 May 2001 09:48:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 28 May 2001 09:48:12 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154JUU-0007oq-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 10:39:10 +0100 Received: from smtp-1.visp.telinco.net ([212.1.130.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154JUS-0007ol-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 10:39:08 +0100 Received: from [212.1.152.193] (helo=g4jnt) by smtp-1.visp.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 154JMf-0003Ks-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 10:31:05 +0100 Message-ID: <001801c0e759$d6a1afc0$c19801d4@g4jnt> From: "Andrew Talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: Modulation pattern on 16kHz ? Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 10:37:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
The 16kHz transmission is MSK  (Minimum Shift keying).   An efficient, constant amplitude, data modulation format.   There was quite a bit of discussion about the mode on this reflector a few months ago, and I remember stating that the 16kHz transmission was one of the most "perfect" examples of MSK I have ever seen off air !
 
The 'minimum' of MSK refers to the fact that the frequency shift is the absolute lowest that can be used for FSK modulation, being exactly half of the data rate.   MSK is a mode that must to be received coherently, like PSK, to take any advantage of its good signalling properties.   The constant amplitude nature would make MSK the ideal mode for our use on 137k were it not for the difficulty of demodulating properly.   I believe Bill de Carle, VE2IQ has been working on an MSK implementation for some time now, but a good system for the mode is still some way off.
 
Low cost and inefficient, non-coherent, implementations are widely used at higher frequencies - a quick scan across the VHF spectrum reveals many MSK transmissions carrying telemetry, data, paging, and all sorts of signals.  A crude demodulation can be done simply using a PLL as an FM discriminator, but that gives a result no different from narrow shift FSK.    An off the shelf chipset, the CM589, makes for a low cost simple MSK data modem, but the implementation is geared towards high S/N paths and the chip will not suit our weak signal purposes.  (I've already looked at it )
 
Andy  G4JNT
 
-----Original Message-----
From: DL4YHF@aol.com <DL4YHF@aol.com>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Date: 27 May 2001 22:29
Subject: LF: Modulation pattern on 16kHz ?

Hi all,

During some RX experiments in the VLF spectrum a few minutes ago, using a
bundle of ferrite rods and lot of wire as antenna. There was..
- a quite strong signal on 16kHz, 100 Hz wide;
- an other signal (stronger) on 18.3kHz, more than 200 Hz wide;
- the Russian Navy(?) on 18.1kHz, about 100 Hz wide with a typical FSK
pattern (transmitter switched off after the transmission).

An old list says on 16.0kHz is "Rugby RTTY 75", another says its "RTTY 200".
But the signal on 16kHz looks more like a well-shaped PSK signal to me. Or is
it just a very stable QRM in my neighbourhood..

Any information available on this reflector ? If the signal on 16.0kHz is
really PSK, where will the planned CW transmission be on Tuesday afternoon ?

Thanks in advance for any info,
 73's from Wolf DL4YHF.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21553 invoked from network); 28 May 2001 04:46:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 28 May 2001 04:46:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 20421 invoked from network); 28 May 2001 04:45:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 28 May 2001 04:45:41 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154Ep6-0005cP-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 05:40:08 +0100 Received: from ds-img-7.compuserve.com ([149.174.206.153] helo=spdmbaaa.compuserve.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 154Ep5-0005bv-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 05:40:07 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spdmbaaa.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id AAA01683 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 00:39:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 00:38:26 -0400 From: "'Geri' Kinzel, DK8KW" Subject: LF: LF antennas To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: <200105280038_MC2-D360-8122@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Walter, >I thought some of his remarks might strike a >chord with this Group. See for yourselves!!!< ... thanks for publishing this, indeed, it reminds me of a lot of the experiments we are carrying out (besides the 700 Amps antenna current, off course ...). Talking about VLF and antenna current : I managed to hear my own 8.930 kHz Signal with 100 mA antenna current into my 18m umbrella (estimated ERP: one Micro-Watt!) in a distance of 1000 m (!), exceeding my previous record by over 200 m (but believe me, it's fun!). Best 73 Geri, DK8KW (W1KW) From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1734 invoked from network); 27 May 2001 22:48:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2001 22:48:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 8132 invoked from network); 27 May 2001 22:47:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 27 May 2001 22:47:32 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1549DQ-0002ke-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 23:40:52 +0100 Received: from k2.pncl.co.uk ([212.35.226.183]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1549DP-0002kZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 23:40:51 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from 233.pncl.co.uk (71.234.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.uk [212.35.234.71]) by k2.pncl.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4RMeAQ00539 for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 23:40:10 +0100 Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010527233337.00a02b10@mail.pncl.co.uk> X-Sender: blanch@mail.pncl.co.uk (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 23:39:28 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Walter Blanchard" Subject: LF: LF antennas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------050300000508080201050005" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050300000508080201050005 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've recently been editing the memoirs of Dr. J. A. Pierce, an American engineer who was responsible for much of the design work on the Omega and Loran-C navigation systems and I thought some of his remarks might strike a chord with this Group. See for yourselves!!! His full memoirs run to some 350 pages and will be published as soon as I've finished editing. Walter G3JKV. --------------050300000508080201050005 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; name="ATT07977.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ATT07977.txt" Excerpts from the memoirs of Dr. J. A. Pierce (He is talking about setting up Omega in 1956) Omega Antennas (Omega frequencies were 10.2 to 13.6 kHz). Transmitting antennas for the low frequency constituted a major problem. We designed and ordered for use in the Pacific three 625 foot lattice towers to be used in an "umbrella" configuration with heavy top-loading cables. These could not be produced quickly so we settled for balloon-supported wires for the experimental stations set up in the United States. The balloons were little "VLA" (very low altitude) models about 35 feet in length and with a diameter of 114 feet. They had stabi1ising fins so that the kite effect gave them some additional lift from the prevailing winds. Each balloon supported an antenna of about 1300 feet of copperweld wire with large insulators at the top and bottom. The Army Air Force provided the balloons and helium to fill them, and also assigned small crews to fly them for us. We had three stations at East Brewster, Massachusetts; Cape Fear, North Carolina; and Key Largo, Florida. The balloons flew more reliably than we had dared to hope but, of course, were less than perfect. They had a maximum load-carrying capacity (in still air) of 58 pounds while our antenna wire and insulators weighed 48 pounds. It was therefore essential to keep the balloons well inflated. It surprised me that, even with the balloons flying in three quite different weather patterns, all three of them were in the air for more than ninety percent of the time. This would not have been satisfactory for operational use, where absolute reliability of the signal is highly desirable, but it was adequate for the experimental work. The antenna at Jim Creek (a U.S. Navy LF communications site). The size of this station was a revelation to me. The antenna consisted of ten copperweld cables 8,000 feet long strung across a narrow valley between two ridges 3,000 feet high. The centers of these strands were connected to downleads that were brought together into a sort of transmission line that carried them back to the transmitter building. The antenna was actually separated into two halves, each excited by its own transmitter, so that in case of accident or the need for maintenance the station could operate at half-power for a time. The transmitter building was a concrete box a hundred feet or so square without windows and with access to the area of the transmitter itself only by elevator from below. As befitted a station with a transmitter whose component sections were mostly of the order of cubes ten feet on a side, the elevator was so big that we simply drove our truck into it for the ride up to the operating level, We spent two or three days setting up our equipment and erecting a whip antenna for receiving the signal from Criggion. As the transmitter building was the only possible site for our gear in the immediate vicinity, the whip was installed on the roof about fifty feet from the "lead-in" which carried about 700 amperes of radio-frequency current. It was in setting up this antenna that we discovered the falsity of the common statement that "r.f. doesn't shock; it simply produces surface burns". This may be the truth for small quantities as high-frequency currents tend to flow only on the surface of a conductor, but it fails by a wide margin to explain the behavior of large currents at such a low frequency as Jim Creek's. Our rough calibration of the field strength near the transmitter lead-in was as follows: a bit of metal up to five or six inches long (such as a screwdriver or a pair of pliers) stings like a nettle; rubber gloves are a necessity for handling metal objects a foot or two long; and touching a conductor five or six feet long can knock one down. The minor pain we encountered in setting up this antenna was wasted, as we never detected a signal from Criggion at that site. Two or three days passed while we searched for the signal. This was a slow process as the only indication of its presence would be the tracking behavior of our servos over a half-hour or more. The search was complicated by the fact that our oscillators had completely lost calibration in the trip across the country, while the signal from WWV which we had expected to use to find the correct frequency was received so poorly as to be essentially useless. At that date, the only real access to precise frequency was through the signals transmitted for the purpose by WWV from near Washington, D.C., and also from WWVH in Hawaii. Neither of these signals was received well enough for the very accurate calibration we had to make. It therefore was a painful and erratic search, moving our oscillator in small steps through what we hoped was an adequate frequency range, and watching the servo record for symptoms of proper tracking. Frequently random behavior would look real for a few minutes and lead us to erroneous corrections because our patience was under such strain. In the end we gave up trying to operate at the transmitter site. In the search for an alternate we found that there was a little "microwave hut" at the top of one of the mountains that supported the large antenna. This hut received signals, from Seattle I suppose, and relayed them down to the station in a telephone cable. The hut was not much more than a mile in a direct line from the transmitter, but was reached by seven miles of mountain road. The hut was near the southwestern-most "stub" tower that supported one of the strands of the big antenna. This tower was about 200 feet high and made an ideal point to which to tie a fairly long wire receiving antenna. At this site we set up our gear in an odd corner and, without too much difficulty, detected the Criggion signal. Without any proof, I still believe that our failure down below was due to the weakness of the Criggion signal at the bottom of the narrow valley - the signal was none too strong at the top of the mountain. We estimated the one microvolt per meter that I mentioned above from the degree of sluggishness of our servos. In other words, if the signal had been stronger the tracking would have been faster or better. The antenna at Haiku (Hawaii) The antenna at Haiku worked very well, partly because the site was in a crater with a bottom a mile or more wide, so that the outer ends of the antenna cables, where the voltage was at a maximum, did not hang too close to the conducting earth at the mountain top. The similar antenna at Jim Creek in the Cascades in the state of Washington had a disappointing efficiency. I have always thought that the difference was that this Jim Creek site was in a valley with a very narrow bottom. The large sag of the heavy cables brought much of their length too close to the slopes of the mountains on both sides. Jim Creek was indeed very useful as a large input to the antenna made it one of the more powerful stations in the world. The amount of power actually radiated, however, was only about a third of what its designers hoped. The first Omega-like transmissions from Haiku were made from the "small" TCG antenna, named for the type number of its transmitter. This was the antenna used for my slow-speed experiment.This antenna was a single strand of cable across the same crater but at a slightly lower height and with only a thousand-foot downlead. It was used for early tests by NEL, but later the work was transferred to the main antenna, which had not been in use for years. The Navy Electronics Laboratory crew working at Haiku were allowed to use the large antenna under a curious agreement. They could transmit what signals they pleased provided that they would rotate the armature of the Alexanderson alternator about 90 degrees once a week, to prevent it from developing curvature of the spine, or shaft. Even the large antenna at Haiku was somewhat inadequate at ten kilohertz. When it came time to promote the station from experiments to full Omega operation, I believe that the four strands of antenna were increased to six, thereby achieving ten kilowatts of radiated power. This was an early estimate of what was needed, but operation of Trinidad at low power had shown the desirability of such an increase. Apart from these "valley-span" antennas, the second type of antenna used for Omega is the "umbrella". This is a single central tower surrounded by radial cables extending from the top of the tower toward the ground at considerable distances. These many radials have insulators at such a distance from the tower that they hang at about half its height. The remainder of each radial is interrupted by several more insulators, so that the antenna part is well isolated from the ground system below. For use at the Omega frequency such a central tower should be about as high as any man-made structure, I believe that the one at Tsushima is at least 1500 feet in height. In that case, the central tower takes the form of a steel tube a dozen feet in diameter. The antenna at Monrovia is supported by a triangular lattice mast 1457 feet high. The whole umbrella antenna usually rests on massive porcelain insulators that are strong enough to support the whole weight plus serious strains from wind loading, and insulated for a couple of hundred thousand volts. This is probably the most economical type of antenna to use when "ready-made" mountain sites are not available, as seldom happens in convenient places. The base-insulated umbrella is the kind of antenna we designed for the LF Loran stations at the end of World War II. We surely did not originate the idea, but such antennas were certainly not used very often before then. I have only recently learned that a variant of the standard umbrella configuration is used at the Omega station at La Reunion and perhaps in Australia. This is the umbrella with the central tower grounded at the base and insulated at the top from the radial top-loading cables. A great advantage of this construction is that the tower is not electrically "hot", and it also permits some simplification in conducting to ground the strokes of lightning that invariably hit such a tall structure. Because the grounded tower offers a short capacitive path to ground from the high voltages on the radials (somewhat like the situation in a valley antenna with too small a height of parts of the radials) the efficiency is sure to be reduced in comparison with the same antenna with an insulated base. The large and expensive porcelain insulator, however, tends to be mechanically the weakest part of the structure and limits the weight that can be placed on it. The base-grounded antenna can therefore be extended to a greater height and thus permit radiation of as much power as a somewhat lower tower with an insulated base. The tower at La Reunion, for example, is no less than 1,600 feet tall. --------------050300000508080201050005-- From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27753 invoked from network); 27 May 2001 21:06:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2001 21:06:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 14148 invoked from network); 27 May 2001 21:05:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 27 May 2001 21:05:39 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1547do-0001x0-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 22:00:00 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.37]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1547dm-0001t8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 21:59:58 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id l.9b.15a94191 (17383) for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 16:58:49 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <9b.15a94191.2842c489@aol.com> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 16:58:49 EDT Subject: LF: Modulation pattern on 16kHz ? To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows DE sub 217 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hi all,

During some RX experiments in the VLF spectrum a few minutes ago, using a
bundle of ferrite rods and lot of wire as antenna. There was..
- a quite strong signal on 16kHz, 100 Hz wide;
- an other signal (stronger) on 18.3kHz, more than 200 Hz wide;
- the Russian Navy(?) on 18.1kHz, about 100 Hz wide with a typical FSK
pattern (transmitter switched off after the transmission).

An old list says on 16.0kHz is "Rugby RTTY 75", another says its "RTTY 200".
But the signal on 16kHz looks more like a well-shaped PSK signal to me. Or is
it just a very stable QRM in my neighbourhood..

Any information available on this reflector ? If the signal on 16.0kHz is
really PSK, where will the planned CW transmission be on Tuesday afternoon ?

Thanks in advance for any info,
 73's from Wolf DL4YHF.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3394 invoked from network); 27 May 2001 20:26:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2001 20:26:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 22613 invoked from network); 27 May 2001 20:26:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 27 May 2001 20:26:03 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 15470K-0001dC-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 21:19:12 +0100 Received: from imo-r04.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.100]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 15470J-0001d7-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 21:19:11 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from WarmSpgs@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id l.d8.6ea46b1 (3969) for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 16:18:31 -0400 (EDT) From: WarmSpgs@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 16:18:31 EDT Subject: Re: LF: D-Layer Chart To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: In a message dated 5/27/01 6:58:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mike.dennison@ntlworld.com writes: << I don't get any colours on the map, just a yellow diamond. Does anyone know how to make this chart work? >> I believe John Sexton is correct in saying that it is working. According to the tabulated data, available from a link on the same page, the highest affected frequency at all latitudes and longitudes is currently 1.0MHz or less. This would render the whole map black, according to its legend. The diamond marks the region (presently over the Pacific Ocean, west of Baja California, Mexico) where the D-layer attenuation is greatest and the HAF is highest, the sub-solar point. 73, John Davis From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15385 invoked from network); 27 May 2001 12:54:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2001 12:54:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 23693 invoked from network); 27 May 2001 12:53:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 27 May 2001 12:53:42 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153zyv-0006ne-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 13:49:17 +0100 Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.43]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153zyu-0006nZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 13:49:16 +0100 Received: from compaq ([62.253.48.116]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with SMTP id <20010527124841.XOPV283.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@compaq> for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 13:48:41 +0100 Message-ID: <00f501c0e6ab$5b64c260$682cfd3e@compaq> From: "Tracey Gardner" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Unid non-LORAN transmission at 100 kHz ? Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 13:48:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Is anybody on the list hearing this signal or has Trond as he suspects got a local problem? 73s Tracey -----Original Message----- From: Trond Jacobsen Date: 27 May 2001 13:37 Subject: Unid non-LORAN transmission at 100 kHz ? >At the moment is there a strong unid signal just below 100 kHz. When first detected it could be best described as a very slow FSK signal mark frequency 99.8 kHz / frequency shift 475 Hz ), after a short break this changed to steady, but reduced, carrier at the space frequency, - with non-regular spaced pulses of carrier at the mark frequency. This later signal show after first examination some similarity to the earlier reported unid pulses at 115.2 kHz. The pulses at 99.8 kHz has both an audible and visible 100 Hz overtone, > >These signals at 99.8 kHz are absolutely not part of the ordinary LORAN splatter. Recordings and spectrograms of both types of signals, ( FSK look-alike and pulses ) available on request. > >Anyone else out there who receives this ? Or have I got myself a very anoying local source of industrial generated QRM ? > >best regards > >Trond at ALFLAB, Halden in Norway From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29309 invoked from network); 27 May 2001 12:45:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2001 12:45:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 18088 invoked from network); 27 May 2001 12:45:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 27 May 2001 12:45:17 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153zrJ-0006bm-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 13:41:25 +0100 Received: from kuku-rwcmta.excite.com ([198.3.99.63] helo=kuku.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153zrI-0006be-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 13:41:24 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from bronty ([199.172.153.112]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20010527124018.RKXB14474.kuku.excite.com@bronty> for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 05:40:18 -0700 Message-ID: <1070473.990967218268.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 05:40:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "john sexton" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: D-Layer Chart MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 62.253.64.5 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Mike, It is working isn't it? It just means that the peak absorption is below 5MHz at the moment, i.e. where we are, wouldn't you know it,hi. John, G4CNN _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4149 invoked from network); 27 May 2001 12:44:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2001 12:44:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 16312 invoked from network); 27 May 2001 12:43:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 27 May 2001 12:43:31 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153zp5-0006bF-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 13:39:07 +0100 Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.36]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153zp4-0006bA-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 13:39:06 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from G0MRF@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id l.22.16aa6566 (4465) for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 08:37:57 -0400 (EDT) From: G0MRF@aol.com Message-ID: <22.16aa6566.28424f25@aol.com> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 08:37:57 EDT Subject: Re: LF: new LFers, contests, etc. To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: In a message dated 5/24/01 12:08:11 AM GMT Daylight Time, Alan.Melia@btinternet.com writes: << As one interested in propagation, it would be interesting to schedule 'Cumulatives' at different hours to probe DX possibilities at times that probably haven't been explored. I am sure Christer and the rest of us do not want the "R 599 QRZ" type of contest, but I am sure he would like more stations to work. >> Hmmmm. I seem to recall many complaints about beacons about 6 months after the band opened. Perhaps like "Blair's Babes" we need a little positive discrimination by the society to encourage people on the band. I enjoyed the recollections of Puckeridge in this months edition but publishing in August / September would have allowed anyone interested to tune into the band when it's in good shape and not encounter the high static levels of summer. Beacons? Well we've plenty of commercial signals with well documented levels. Activity days? That's a good non controversial idea. Contests? I suspect that will cause QRM to weaker stations that the kWs can't hear. But there may be a formula that works over a limited period. My 2 cents....... 73 David G0MRF From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13757 invoked from network); 27 May 2001 11:03:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2001 11:03:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 6304 invoked from network); 27 May 2001 11:03:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 27 May 2001 11:03:06 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153yBJ-0005uB-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 11:53:57 +0100 Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.41]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153yBI-0005u6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 11:53:56 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.104.97.6]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with SMTP id <20010527105318.IOWT283.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 11:53:18 +0100 Message-ID: <003401c0e69b$446a2420$066168d5@oemcomputer> From: "mike.dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: D-Layer Chart Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 11:53:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: There is a chart of D-Layer absorption at http://www.sec.noaa.gov/rt_plots/dregion.html which looks like it should be useful, but I don't get any colours on the map, just a yellow diamond. Does anyone know how to make this chart work? Mike, G3XDV http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17573 invoked from network); 27 May 2001 10:25:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2001 10:25:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 8896 invoked from network); 27 May 2001 10:25:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 27 May 2001 10:25:06 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153xYa-0005Zg-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 11:13:56 +0100 Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.46]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153xYZ-0005Zb-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 11:13:55 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.104.97.6]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with SMTP id <20010527101321.DKZW285.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 11:13:21 +0100 Message-ID: <001b01c0e695$af9ea820$066168d5@oemcomputer> From: "mike.dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <003201c0e3dc$ea7f5ea0$c7727ad5@default> <013501c0e514$fb099630$0a00a8c0@ThreeLakes.ca> Subject: LF: Re: VA3LK ending nightly transmissions to Europe Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 11:13:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > I see that Jack, VE1ZZ is returning to LF and that he now has "visual ears" > as well. There is no longer any reason for my nightly transmissions to > Europe from 01 utc to 02 utc, especially as the gray line here is now in the > middle of the hour. Unless anyone has a need I will end the nightly > transmissions this weekend. > VA3LK Larry, Thanks for making these transmissions. Although no-one in Europe successfully received your WOLF signals, they were useful to work on. See you next winter. 73 Mike, G3XDV http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26267 invoked from network); 27 May 2001 09:50:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 27 May 2001 09:50:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 29133 invoked from network); 27 May 2001 09:49:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 27 May 2001 09:49:45 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153x4O-0005LH-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 10:42:44 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from imo-d10.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.42]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153x4N-0005LC-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 10:42:43 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id l.c.1646b924 (18410) for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 05:40:24 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 05:40:24 EDT Subject: LF: CT1DRP's overnight plots To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows DE sub 217 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hello group,

The automated RX facility run by Brian CT1DRP works beautiful now, here a few
suggestions how it can be used.

I tried to be 'heard' by Brian's RX system on late saturday night (May 26),
transmitting a sequence very long dashes at full hours. It succeeded again,
though only about 80mW were used here (at DF0WD, loc. JO42DF).

The transmissions were at 19,20,21,22 and 23 UTC, with those at 22 and 23 UTC
being visible in the "TA plot" (which shows the peak amplitude between
135.915 and 135.927kHz as a function of time for a few hours).

The peaks are visible when the signal from DCF39 reaches the maximum during
the night (not a surprising fact, because DF0WD is only a few 100km away from
DCF39). It would be interesting now to see, if this is also true for signals
transmitted from other parts of EU.

The plots can be loaded from
http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~brian/Graphs.htm
Though Brian says the site is still "under construction", it is already a
very useful installation and we should make effective use of it. It would be
even better to have more such RX facilities around... but not all of us have
the opportunity of letting their PC's run all night. Hw abt u.. ?


We could set up a (manually operated) system of transmitters similar to the
NCDXF international beacon project (avoiding the word 'beacon' of course, and
using an other frequency than the TA slot).

With 6 stations (A-F), each transmitting a 5-minute carrier like this:
20:00-20:05 A transmitting
20:05-20:10 silence
20:10-20:15 B transmitting
20:05-20:10  silence
20:20-20:25 C transmitting
20:05-20:10  silence
20:30-20:35 D transmitting
20:05-20:10  silence
20:40-20:45 E transmitting
20:05-20:10  silence
20:50-20:55 F transmitting
20:05-20:10  silence

Why 5-minute carrier ? Because CT1DRP's automated RX configuration collects
(integrates) the spectra in long intervals to eliminate QRM ("pull weak
signals out of the noise"). If a measuring interval is 90 seconds long, you
need at least 2*90 seconds to be shure you hit at least one "full" measuring
interval. If not, the peak amplitude in the plot appears lower than it
actually is (this effect can be seen on the TA plot from May 27th).

The same scheme could be repeated for 21, 22, 23 UTC etc (?..).
If more stations participate, the slot times and gaps could be reduced down
to 3 minutes (or 90 seconds if the intervals were strictly synchronized).

For un-coordinated "occasional" transmissions,  here a first suggestion for a
kind of schedule. It may look strange and certainly needs to  improved:
A = southern G (the big guns please lead the parade :)
B = north+west G, GM, GW, EI, GI
C = ON, PA, DL
D = F, HB9, I, OE, OK, OM
E = OZ, SM, OH
F = reserved for 'rare birds' and DX

The coordination of such a project should be done by someone else, because I
quite busy from other tasks at the moment.

Have fun SEEING your signal being detected in Portugal !

73's, Wolf DL4YHF.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5450 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 20:27:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2001 20:27:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 5663 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 20:27:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 26 May 2001 20:27:14 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153ka1-00084b-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 21:22:33 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from [194.200.20.13] (helo=mailhost.netscapeonline.co.uk) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153ka0-00084W-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 21:22:32 +0100 Received: from ldsas17-81-132-112.cw-visp.com ([212.137.132.112] helo=netscapeonline.co.uk) by mailhost.netscapeonline.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.02 #1) id 153kTF-0001Oz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 20:15:34 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3B100166.8CA1854B@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 20:17:58 +0100 From: "gii3kev" Organization: Netscape Online member X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rsgb rsgb" Subject: LF: 73/136 khz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All I have not seen any info for ages about acty on 73 khz. Is anyone active or interested in this band at present. I will be in GI land in a couple of weeks time and could be active on 136 khz and possibly 73 khz but I am not enthusastic judging by the interest /activity in recent times on either band. Since I operate a one man band it takes a couple of full days to get the antennas installed and tuned up. The last time that I was active the response was poor. By now I thought half of europe would be on 136 khz but the reverse has happened. There is also the anti social aspect, some active on LF do not like CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM and the operating of cw and procedure is poor. This has probably got even worse!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe Wolf and Wobble and a bit of Bark would suit some better !!!!!!!!! If I activate the GI station I shall be sticking to normal cw for contacts around EU and maybe very slow visual cw for dx if necessary. 73 de Mal/G3KEV/Scarborough From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10203 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 16:35:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2001 16:35:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 19038 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 16:34:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 26 May 2001 16:34:44 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153gun-0006K7-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 17:27:45 +0100 Received: from fep02.swip.net ([130.244.199.130] helo=fep02-svc.swip.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153gum-0006K2-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 17:27:44 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([212.151.95.202]) by fep02-svc.swip.net with SMTP id <20010526162703.HDZT19128.fep02-svc.swip.net@oemcomputer> for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 18:27:03 +0200 Message-ID: <023101c0e600$ea580780$ca5f97d4@oemcomputer> From: "Johan Bodin" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Off topic - looking for star map program Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 18:28:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello A few months ago, I saw a download link for a homemade star map program for PC. I am almost sure that it was on a G amateur's homepage but I don't remember which one... I believe he is an LF enthusast too. Are you on this list? 73 Johan Bodin SM6LKM From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3652 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 13:48:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2001 13:48:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 4173 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 13:48:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 26 May 2001 13:48:14 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153eMq-00055W-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 14:44:32 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from imo-r03.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.99]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153eMp-00055R-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 14:44:31 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id l.64.e6263fe (9665) for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 09:43:50 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <64.e6263fe.28410d15@aol.com> Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 09:43:49 EDT Subject: Re: LF: Transmission in TA slot: YES ! To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows DE sub 217 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hi Brian,
I can proudly tell you it was me.
Now I'm off to have a look at your pages.
I transmitted the signal from DF0WD in the hope that it may be detectable.
The QRG on the display was 136.925 +- 0.1 Hz.
I was transmitting two "pulses" of 2-3 minutes, the last ending a frew mins
after 23:00 UTC. Cannot remember the exact time, it was "just for testing
purposes".
More Info later.

73's Wolf, From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8491 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 13:24:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2001 13:24:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 1720 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 13:24:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 26 May 2001 13:24:16 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153dyk-0004xJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 14:19:38 +0100 Received: from tomts6.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.26] helo=tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153dyj-0004xE-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 14:19:37 +0100 Received: from server1 ([216.209.138.58]) by tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with SMTP id <20010526131830.MTUW7009.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@server1> for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 09:18:30 -0400 Message-ID: <003701c0e5e5$f5470e40$0a00a8c0@ThreeLakes.ca> From: "Larry Kayser" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <200105260212_MC2-D33C-B175@compuserve.com> Subject: LF: Re: Re: CME directions, and particle energy Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 09:12:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Geri: ... are you looking for the explanation of the occasionally reported LDE's (= long delayed echo)? No, not an "explanation" a smaller project to make maybe one variant of LDE's predictable or repeatable. I have been into the LDE research for a long time now and have made some progress. I have found a way to positively identify a signal, without direct reference to other signals, to identify a given signal as being an LDE or NOT an LDE, that has made some of the work a little easier. There are at least several LDE mechanisms, once one gets beyond the ROW (ROund the World) variants, say out to 2.2 seconds or so. After that we get into the serious time delays. I have a large chirping facility here that I am slowly bringing on line as a fully automatic transmitting facility. The progress is slow however. I don't have the education to do the "explanation" part, my goal is very modest - to put one peg in the ground in this area will be enough. Despite some 20 + years of being conscious to the issues, I have only heard directly one LDE while operating on HF and then I did like so many I failed to document the experience at the time. I have trained myself out of that problem should it happen again. If your into this work contact me directly please, this reflector is not likely interested in this subject. Thanks and 73 Larry VA3LK From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26123 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 12:44:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2001 12:44:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 1713 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 12:44:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 26 May 2001 12:44:17 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153dM4-0004af-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 13:39:40 +0100 Received: from gigi.excite.com ([199.172.152.110]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153dM3-0004aY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 13:39:39 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from bronty ([199.172.153.112]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20010526123833.LUKF3984.gigi.excite.com@bronty> for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 05:38:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3901590.990880713527.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 05:38:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "john sexton" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re: CME with a "Glancing pass near Earth"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 62.253.64.5 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Larry, Just some idle speculation: If we assume that CMEs are directed directly away from the centre of the sun, which seems reasonable, and we know the initial diameter of the cloud, its rate of expansion and the velocity away from the sun, it is a simple matter to calculate how far the edge of the cloud will be from the Earth, when it passes us. The initial size might be a problem, but if clouds grow to many times that size by the time they reach us, we can ignore it. The main question is the rate of expansion and the velocity of the cloud. This information can probably be gleaned from previous CMEs. I seem to recall that it takes 3 or 4 days to reach us, which gives a velocity of about 1 to 1.3 million mph and at a guess we may assume the same rate of expansion. To miss the Earth by 7.5 million miles, the angle away from the sun-earth line is approx arctan((93+7.5)/93), i.e. about 47 degrees. As viewed from the Earth, the CME must start from outside a circle of about .73 of the visible diameter to miss the Earth by the required amount. Or to put it another way the probabability of any arbitrary CME missing the Earth by that amount is approx 80%. A more reliable method might be to look through the statistics available on the Internet from places like: http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov 73 John, G4CNN _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19202 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 07:25:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2001 07:25:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 553 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 07:24:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 26 May 2001 07:24:30 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153YKr-0002Fy-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 08:18:05 +0100 Received: from [212.78.195.134] (helo=smtp3.bip.net ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153YKq-0002Ft-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 08:18:04 +0100 Received: from HemmaPC (t6o940p215.telia.com [212.181.199.215]) by smtp3.bip.net (8.12.0.Beta5/8.12.0.Beta5) with SMTP id f4Q7HOJi015056 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 09:17:24 +0200 Message-ID: <002c01c0e5b3$ed5bd8a0$d7c7b5d4@HemmaPC> From: "Urban ekholm" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <001e01c0e3a1$e570f940$bd31893e@g3aqc> Subject: LF: SV: Re Data. Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 22:18:39 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 6:02 PM
Subject: LF: Re Data.

Can anyone help me with data on some old Bi-polar devices or perhaps point me at a source of info. The devices are:-
BDY 62
DTS 423 (Delco)
Any help would be appreciated. 73s Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13636 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 07:02:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2001 07:02:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 8428 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 07:01:57 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 26 May 2001 07:01:57 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153Y1M-00021z-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 07:57:56 +0100 Received: from rhun.esoterica.pt ([195.22.0.26]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153Y1L-00021u-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 07:57:56 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from srv17slx.esoterica.pt (srv17slx.esoterica.pt [195.22.0.47]) by rhun.esoterica.pt (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4Q6vKl07147 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 07:57:20 +0100 (WEST) Received: from slave2 (por059.esoterica.pt [195.22.5.59]) by srv17slx.esoterica.pt (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA13024 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 07:57:20 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010526065551.0087c2c0@pop3.esoterica.pt> X-Sender: brian@pop3.esoterica.pt X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 06:55:51 +0000 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Brian Rogerson" Subject: LF: Transmission in TA slot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Did someone transmit in the 135.920KHz slot last night between 2300 and 2304utc? 73, Brian 73 Brian CT1DRP IN51QD 41 09 58N 08 39 11W http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~brian From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25546 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 06:18:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2001 06:18:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 12467 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 06:17:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 26 May 2001 06:17:33 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153XJs-0001i8-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 07:13:00 +0100 Received: from siaag1ac.compuserve.com ([149.174.40.5]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153XJq-0001i3-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 07:12:59 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by siaag1ac.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id CAA07102 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 02:12:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 02:11:53 -0400 From: "'Geri' Kinzel, DK8KW" Subject: LF: Re: CME directions, and particle energy To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: <200105260212_MC2-D33C-B175@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Larry, >My interest is not in what is going to give the Earth a blast, my interest >is what is going by the Earth at a radius of out to 7.5 million miles. My >specific interest is in the near misses, I have no interest in the ones that >are going to get us a good one. ... are you looking for the explanation of the occasionally reported LDE's (= long delayed echo)? Vy 73 Geri, DK8KW (W1KW) From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12460 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 00:51:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2001 00:51:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 12453 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 00:50:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 26 May 2001 00:50:50 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153SCW-0007kj-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 01:45:04 +0100 Received: from tomts6.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.26] helo=tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153SCV-0007kZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 01:45:03 +0100 Received: from server1 ([209.226.189.169]) by tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with SMTP id <20010526004356.ISIB7009.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@server1> for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 20:43:56 -0400 Message-ID: <002f01c0e57c$8f4eb7a0$0a00a8c0@ThreeLakes.ca> From: "Larry Kayser" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <001901c0e564$cde1ee00$0165073e@default> Subject: LF: Re: CME directions, and particle energy Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 20:41:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Alan: > Hi Larry, well I am not sure that the professionals know a awful lot about > 'em. I have been chasing this for a while and almost no information is available in the area that I want to find information. >As I understand it a CME is erupted from the surface roughly radially > as far as the main energy is concerned. I suspect it is a little like the > stone-in-the-pond and think there may be some spreading of the energy as the > cme travels. I have a sense from what I have found that the "radially" is a variable as well, the main burst apparently does not have a direct vector out from the center of the sun, it can come out from any point from 0 to 90 degrees from the surface, although many do come fairly close to 90 degrees. I could also be in a position of having totally missunderstood what I was reading of course, but that is what I have so far. >Thus I think the professionals judge whether a CME is going to > make an impact with the Earth's magnetosphere by finding where on the solar > surface it is generated. Thus if near the solar equator and in the middle of > the disc, we are certainly going to get the particles. If however it is > generated off towards the limb, then the main direction will be not pointing > at Earth so we do not get the effect. My interest is not in what is going to give the Earth a blast, my interest is what is going by the Earth at a radius of out to 7.5 million miles. My specific interest is in the near misses, I have no interest in the ones that are going to get us a good one. > There is another problem however, the ejected plasma mass carries a > substantial magnetic field, and the magnitude of the effect on us depends on > the orientation of that field with respect to the Earth's magnetic field. > One direction and it passes harmlessly round the earth magnetosphere, the > other direction and it couples with the Earth's field and then particle > injection is possible. I am not sure at what stage the solar observers are > able to determine this. I believe it is this effect that means that some > supposedly big CMEs seem to have little effect on us, while a smaller one > (with the appropriate orientation) will sometimes produce big auroral > displays. I have a direct interest in anything that is going by the Earth within a radius of 7.5 million miles but far enough away that it is not directly going to give us one on the nose. > So, in my experience, spotting the CMEs is only part of the story. So far I > have tried using the Kp index to see whether there will be (or maybe 'has > been') particle injection. I also believe the Kp index may be a measure of > the particle energy (...current >> Field??)...related to the field (but I > maybe wrong!).... BIG CMEs seem give a high Kp. The point is that it doesnt > immediately correlate with radio effects as it takes the particles a while > to work their way down from the poles to lower latitudes, and diffuse down > into the ionsphere. Excellent. I am wondering if I could take some of these information elements and from them determine the direction that the CME is going and if it is going to come, at any energy level, within the 7.5 million miles from Earth. > I reckon at least 24 hours and maybe longer before the effect is felt in > radio terms. By then the Kp has usually dropped right back to quiet levels > again. Certainly, I can agree, and the time lag can be up to a week from what I saw recently in some data. > I may be talking a load of bilge but that the best I can do from my > observations.....hope it maybe of some help....I am still trying to work up > some correlation attempts. > If anyone knows better please help me correct my naive ideas. If we had certain knowledge of what you are talking about then the subject would be well understood and my querry would have received the response, go read this chapter in some book hi. Since that hasn't happened I can assume we are into a border area of knowledge. One thing that would be a big help is to identify who are the worlds experts in this area and then I can try and engage one of them in a conversation. If anyone has any ideas then I would sure appreciate the help. If anyone is offended at the OFF TOPIC discussion let me know and I will go away hi. Thanks Alan for your time and effort. Larry VA3LK From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17493 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 00:37:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 26 May 2001 00:37:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 8475 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 00:36:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 26 May 2001 00:36:43 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153Rxm-0007dZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 01:29:50 +0100 Received: from tomts13.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.34] helo=tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153Rxl-0007dU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 01:29:49 +0100 Received: from server1 ([209.226.189.169]) by tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with SMTP id <20010526002843.CGIZ25498.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@server1> for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 20:28:43 -0400 Message-ID: <002701c0e57a$6ea65820$0a00a8c0@ThreeLakes.ca> From: "Larry Kayser" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <003201c0e3dc$ea7f5ea0$c7727ad5@default> <013501c0e514$fb099630$0a00a8c0@ThreeLakes.ca> <000901c0e53f$9a640380$0a00a8c0@ThreeLakes.ca> <002001c0e561$69fc3a60$09dc9384@ma.ultranet.com> Subject: LF: Re: Re: CME with a "Glancing pass near Earth"? Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 20:25:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: John: > My limited understanding of this subject is that we currently have a > two-dimensional view of what is obviously a three-dimensional process. With > this limitation, it is difficult to predict the arrival time or severity of > the effects from a CME. I agree with your conclusions, the issue for me is however neither "arrival time" or "severity", I just want to know if what ever is going on streams past the Earth withing 7.5 Million miles. My second need, would be to understand the energy level of the particles that are going my at the closest approach to Earth, that one I feel is far beyond what might be available information. If an ejection occurs from the Sun's limb, it is > unlikely to be earth-directed, of course. But predictions of CME's from the > rest of the visible side of the Sun appear to be vague, until they arrive at > satellites in near earth orbit. Excellent, I have a sense that the CME's can come out any odd angle fromt he surface of the Sun, this is why I find the whole thing so confusing. The notion of the satellites in near earth orbit is interesting, they would only tell us what is going to clobber us, not what is going by at some distance from us, if I have any understanding of what these satellites can detect. Thank You for your time and efforts, if you come by anything further please let me know about it. My interest is not short term but long term. 73 for the moment, Larry VA3LK From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28771 invoked from network); 25 May 2001 22:01:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 25 May 2001 22:01:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 29186 invoked from network); 25 May 2001 22:01:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 25 May 2001 22:01:20 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153PZK-0006Os-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 22:56:26 +0100 Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.81]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153PZI-0006On-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 22:56:25 +0100 Received: from [62.7.101.1] (helo=default) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 153PYg-0001N4-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 22:55:46 +0100 Message-ID: <001901c0e564$cde1ee00$0165073e@default> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: CME directions, and particle energy Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 22:48:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Larry, well I am not sure that the professionals know a awful lot about 'em. As I understand it a CME is erupted from the surface roughly radially as far as the main energy is concerned. I suspect it is a little like the stone-in-the-pond and think there may be some spreading of the energy as the cme travels. Thus I think the professionals judge whether a CME is going to make an impact with the Earth's magnetosphere by finding where on the solar surface it is generated. Thus if near the solar equator and in the middle of the disc, we are certainly going to get the particles. If however it is generated off towards the limb, then the main direction will be not pointing at Earth so we do not get the effect. There is another problem however, the ejected plasma mass carries a substantial magnetic field, and the magnitude of the effect on us depends on the orientation of that field with respect to the Earth's magnetic field. One direction and it passes harmlessly round the earth magnetosphere, the other direction and it couples with the Earth's field and then particle injection is possible. I am not sure at what stage the solar observers are able to determine this. I believe it is this effect that means that some supposedly big CMEs seem to have little effect on us, while a smaller one (with the appropriate orientation) will sometimes produce big auroral displays. So, in my experience, spotting the CMEs is only part of the story. So far I have tried using the Kp index to see whether there will be (or maybe 'has been') particle injection. I also believe the Kp index may be a measure of the particle energy (...current >> Field??)...related to the field (but I maybe wrong!).... BIG CMEs seem give a high Kp. The point is that it doesnt immediately correlate with radio effects as it takes the particles a while to work their way down from the poles to lower latitudes, and diffuse down into the ionsphere. I reckon at least 24 hours and maybe longer before the effect is felt in radio terms. By then the Kp has usually dropped right back to quiet levels again. I may be talking a load of bilge but that the best I can do from my observations.....hope it maybe of some help....I am still trying to work up some correlation attempts. If anyone knows better please help me correct my naive ideas. Cheers de Alan G3NYK Alan.Melia@btinternet.com Then there are coronal hole events that happen all the time without spots, and seem to emanate from the equatorial region of the sun..... From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10777 invoked from network); 25 May 2001 21:28:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 25 May 2001 21:28:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 13222 invoked from network); 25 May 2001 21:27:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 25 May 2001 21:27:50 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153P3A-00065z-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 22:23:12 +0100 Received: from antiochus-fe0.ultra.net ([146.115.8.188]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153P38-00065u-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 22:23:11 +0100 Received: from comrex (207-172-216-124.s632.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.216.124]) by antiochus-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n20340/mtc.v2) with SMTP id RAA07104; Fri, 25 May 2001 17:22:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002001c0e561$69fc3a60$09dc9384@ma.ultranet.com> From: "John Andrews" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Cc: kayser@sympatico.ca References: <003201c0e3dc$ea7f5ea0$c7727ad5@default> <013501c0e514$fb099630$0a00a8c0@ThreeLakes.ca> <000901c0e53f$9a640380$0a00a8c0@ThreeLakes.ca> Subject: LF: Re: CME with a "Glancing pass near Earth"? Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:26:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Larry, > First, thanks for looking at this. I have a strong interest in figuring out > how to tell if a CME from the Sun is going to come within about 7.5 Million > miles of the earth. A second level of information needed is to understand > the energy level of the particles that are going by us at a given time. > A really great end game for this inquiry would be to understand how to look > at a CME event and to quickly determine if the CME will come within about > 7.5 Million miles of the earth. My limited understanding of this subject is that we currently have a two-dimensional view of what is obviously a three-dimensional process. With this limitation, it is difficult to predict the arrival time or severity of the effects from a CME. If an ejection occurs from the Sun's limb, it is unlikely to be earth-directed, of course. But predictions of CME's from the rest of the visible side of the Sun appear to be vague, until they arrive at satellites in near earth orbit. I remember seeing a TV special that described plans for locating satellites at the Lagrange points, thus providing 3-d viewing. John Andrews, W1TAG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18163 invoked from network); 25 May 2001 17:39:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 25 May 2001 17:39:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 6502 invoked from network); 25 May 2001 17:38:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 25 May 2001 17:38:58 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153LOI-0004KR-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 18:28:46 +0100 Received: from tomts14.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.35] helo=tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153LOE-0004KE-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 18:28:42 +0100 Received: from server1 ([216.209.138.72]) by tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with SMTP id <20010525172736.WWAR28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@server1> for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 13:27:36 -0400 Message-ID: <000901c0e53f$9a640380$0a00a8c0@ThreeLakes.ca> From: "Larry Kayser" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <003201c0e3dc$ea7f5ea0$c7727ad5@default> <013501c0e514$fb099630$0a00a8c0@ThreeLakes.ca> Subject: LF: CME with a "Glancing pass near Earth"? Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 13:24:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Greetings All: First, thanks for looking at this. I have a strong interest in figuring out how to tell if a CME from the Sun is going to come within about 7.5 Million miles of the earth. A second level of information needed is to understand the energy level of the particles that are going by us at a given time. A really great end game for this inquiry would be to understand how to look at a CME event and to quickly determine if the CME will come within about 7.5 Million miles of the earth. Any help will certainly be appreciated. Larry VA3LK From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9503 invoked from network); 25 May 2001 15:11:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 25 May 2001 15:11:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 26018 invoked from network); 25 May 2001 15:10:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 25 May 2001 15:10:39 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153J5o-00033S-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 16:01:32 +0100 Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153J5l-00033N-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 16:01:29 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.90.16]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 12:00:10 -0300 Message-ID: <3B0E2DD8.640C653E@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 03:03:06 -0700 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rsgb" Subject: LF: lf tests Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: hi all , I will not be able to look at 136 this weekend as I will be participating in the WPX contest from summer place . Will be on all bands VE1ZJ/ QRP 73 de John VE1ZJ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22361 invoked from network); 25 May 2001 12:32:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 25 May 2001 12:32:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 19314 invoked from network); 25 May 2001 12:31:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 25 May 2001 12:31:30 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153Gd3-0001tb-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 13:23:41 +0100 Received: from tomts6.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.26] helo=tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153Gd1-0001tW-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 13:23:40 +0100 Received: from server1 ([216.209.138.36]) by tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with SMTP id <20010525122230.YUQW7009.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@server1> for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 08:22:30 -0400 Message-ID: <013501c0e514$fb099630$0a00a8c0@ThreeLakes.ca> From: "Larry Kayser" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <003201c0e3dc$ea7f5ea0$c7727ad5@default> Subject: LF: VA3LK ending nightly transmissions to Europe Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:22:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Greetings: I see that Jack, VE1ZZ is returning to LF and that he now has "visual ears" as well. There is no longer any reason for my nightly transmissions to Europe from 01 utc to 02 utc, especially as the gray line here is now in the middle of the hour. Unless anyone has a need I will end the nightly transmissions this weekend. 73 Larry VA3LK From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29594 invoked from network); 25 May 2001 09:27:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 25 May 2001 09:27:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 2577 invoked from network); 25 May 2001 09:26:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 25 May 2001 09:26:33 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153DgK-0000Ui-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:14:52 +0100 Received: from bob.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 153DgE-0000Ud-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:14:47 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: by bob.dera.gov.uk; (8.8.8/1.3/10May95) id KAA00410; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:18:33 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 32018 invoked from network); 25 May 2001 10:08:18 -0000 Received: from gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk (172.16.9.10) by baton.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 25 May 2001 10:08:18 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk; id KAA01809; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:01:29 GMT Received: from unknown(10.71.64.31) by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk via smap (3.2) id xma001454; Fri, 25 May 01 10:00:25 GMT Received: from mailex.dera.gov.uk (unverified) by mailguard.dera.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:21:21 +0100 Received: (qmail 20584 invoked from network); 25 May 2001 09:04:31 +0100 Received: from softdnserror (HELO cchecker.dstl.gov.uk) (192.168.248.52) by 10.10.80.250 with SMTP; 25 May 2001 08:04:31 -0000 Received: from FRN-MAIL-R1.dstl.gov.uk (unverified) by cchecker.dstl.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.2) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:04:41 +0100 Received: by frn-mail-r1.dstl.gov.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:12:27 +0100 Message-ID: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803D55C49D@pdw-mail-r1.dstl.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: "LF Group \(E-mail\)" Subject: LF: BigPA diagram and Complete DDS Mod ule available Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:12:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit

The circuit diagram of my 700 Watt Switch Mode Tx design as presented at Wimborne has now been posted at :     www.lwca.org/miscimg/swmlftx.pcx

There is noa ccompanying documentation, so if anyone wants more info please contact med irect.  The following should answer 90% of queries :

No details are given for the FET driver transformer.   This consists of 12:12+12 turns on RM10 Ungapped core, 3C85 material.   Thew indings here, at least the primary, give safety isolation from the mains and should be made of well insulated mains rated wire.  The secondaries can be enameled wire, but they still have full voltage between the windings so need adequate insulation.   I used PTFE insulated wire for all the windings here.
 
Setting up the guard circuit is a matter of trial and error.   The transformation ratio is near to the loaded Q of the circuit, approximately 6 here,  but the number of turns for the secondary winding has to be determined emipirically (and carefully to avoid blowing FETs !), as the coupling between the coils is not the 100% it is for a normal transformer.  More turns aren eeded to get the approximately 6:1 transformation ratio required.   Setting up the guard circuit is easy if a current limited (at say 2-3 A) 50 - 100V PSU is used to power the PAi nstead of the final supply.   The actual voltage does not matter, the guard circuit works on ratios.
 
My tank coil consists of approximately 90 turns of plastic covered Litz wire in three layers on a piece of 68mm diameter drain pipe, turns adjusted for 200uH.   The guard circuit winding ended up as around 25 turns (see, its not 6:1 turns ratio) 
 
Unmarked components on the mains input to the PSU are filtering / EMC components.  I took them from a scrap SMPSU rated at 600 Watts.  Use whatever you can lay your hands on - but remember that capacitors that go across the mains, or from mains to ground, need to haves pecial safety and reliability ratings Class XX or XY - or something liket hat.    Filtering here is important as transients on the mains could damage the PA and it is a bit naughty feeding lots of harmonics of 137kHz switching signals back into the supply.  Also omitted on the diagram, a varistor should be connected across the mains input to further absorb any high energy pulses.
 
The surge limiting thermistor in the PSU input was taken from the same SMPSU.  It has a cold resistance of about 12 ohms,f alling to 0.4 ohms when operating.
 
The output transformer is wound on an ETD49 core, 3C85 material.  This can cope with 700 Watts - remember, it is a sine waveform,  power handlingw ould be less if a square wave passed through it.  The core does run warm - but not usually too hot to touch and much of the heat in mine is probably generated in the copper losses rather than the core itself   A bigger core would be better, allowing less turns and copper losses as well asl ower core loss, but this size is readily available and cheap.   The primary is wound with thick Litz wire (ex Decca / Crawley club) and the secondary should really be as well although the 1mm enamelled wire I used is good enough.   The Litz must be the plastic covered type to give the other mains safety barrier.    Transformer taps specified are for load resistances in the range  50 - 150 ohms.
 
No key click filtering or BPSK waveform shaping is possible using the drive circuit shown.   It is up to your conscience or ingenuity as to what to do about this !   As a saving grace, I use the Tx mainly via the DDS drive input (for SMT Hell and SLOWCW) rather than by hard keying, and this does slightly reduce keying sidebands as the DDS operates with continuous phase.
        ------------------------------------
Now a for-sale plug.    I have a surplus to requirements fully operational spare DDS module - exactly as published in RadCom but one of the early breadboards - completely built up in a tinplate box, with a high stability 94.45MHzB utler oscillator for the clock included, with buffer amplifier for outputs up to 30MHz. A trim pot allows adjustment to < 1ppm although no temperature control is employed.  Frequency setting to a resolution of 0.022Hz is made via the RS232 interface either from my driver software or by sending the DDS register codes in hexadecimal ASCII from any terminal software.   More details on this module than were given in the RadCom article are available from the HF Instruments web site, WWW.HF-INST.CO.UK
 
Any offers  to g4jnt@thersgb.net   As a price guide, the commercial version  of PCB with DDS chip mounted alone, youb uild the rest, is £64
 
Andy  G4JNT
 


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or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is
prohibited and may be unlawful.
 From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2696 invoked from network); 24 May 2001 20:20:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 24 May 2001 20:20:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 22085 invoked from network); 24 May 2001 20:20:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 24 May 2001 20:20:01 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1531V3-0003Ju-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 21:14:25 +0100 Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.111]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1531Uz-0003Jp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 21:14:22 +0100 Received: from [213.122.56.166] (helo=default) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 1531UJ-0004Dl-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 21:13:39 +0100 Message-ID: <002601c0e496$e4dd2760$a6387ad5@default> From: "Fred Rattray" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <004b01c0e3e2$67164280$c05101d5@default> Subject: LF: Re: Re: Enammeled Copper Wire Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:55:14 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Many thanks Alan for the tip , and yes it is a bit of a large quantity. I Have a reel of 22swg with about 1000 metres on and was going to use this for my Magnetometer but it is not really thick enough. Anyway cheers again. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Melia" To: Sent: 23 May 2001 23:44 Subject: LF: Re: Enammeled Copper Wire > Hi Fred that is really a commercial quantity you want. A suggestion I might > make....If I wanted that much I might seek out a local electric motor > rewinder. They must buy this stuff buy the cart-load. A local one here I did > some radio work for has racks of the stuff in his stores. See if you can get > a reel from him or whether he would buy you a reel with his next order for a > small handling charge. You get his bulk prices then. > > Cheers de Alan G3NYK > Alan.Melia@btinternet.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Rattray > To: Lf Group > Date: 23 May 2001 23:10 > Subject: LF: Enammeled Copper Wire > > > Does anyone know a cheap source of enammeled copper wire. > 18 or 20 SWG? > Its for a toroid I,m to wind for a Proton Magnetometer and I need in excess > of 500 metres. > > 73 > Fred > G4SPR > Cumbria. > > > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6866 invoked from network); 24 May 2001 15:07:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 24 May 2001 15:07:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 11011 invoked from network); 24 May 2001 15:07:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 24 May 2001 15:07:06 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152waA-0000uK-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 15:59:22 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from imo-d09.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.41]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152wa5-0000uD-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 15:59:18 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id l.b0.14fb1b0f (16784) for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:58:05 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:58:05 EDT Subject: LF: Software-based VLF Receiver To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows DE sub 217 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hello group,

Because of the coming test transmissions on 16kHz and 17.2kHz, I did a few
tests with 'direct reception' of LF signals up to 20 kHz using only the PC, a
soundcard, a piece of software and a few metres of wire. The results are
good, and may be useful for some of you.

The basic concept:
- soundcard running at 44100 Hz sample rate
- input signal is converted to 650Hz audio with an image-rejecting mixer
 (phase method, using a Hilbert transformer)
- output from the mixer (650Hz) filtered with IIR or FIR filter,
100Hz bandwidth or less
- output from the filter passed to soundcard output (in real-time).


You need a PC with at least 166MHz, Spectrum Lab V1.65 beta5 (new).

The problem is that not all soundcards are suited for this "full duplex"
operation (or, to be precise, the control program does not allow the proper
settings). I did a few tests on some PC's, on two it worked immediately and
one (a notebook) had kind of a 'feedback' problem.


More info can be found here:
 http://www.qsl.net/dl4yhf/vlf_rcvr.html  .

The 'special pre-release' of Spectrum Lab V1.65 beta5 can be loaded from:
 http://members.aol.com/dl4yhfhamsoft/spectr_i.zip

I am very interested in the 16kHz transmission from GBR, hope it's going to
work. Thanks for passing the info about GBR, Mike.

User feedback welcome. Good luck, cu on 136kHz,
  73's Wolf (DL4YHF, DF0WD).
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10542 invoked from network); 24 May 2001 15:01:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 24 May 2001 15:01:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 29751 invoked from network); 24 May 2001 15:00:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 24 May 2001 15:00:56 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152wU3-0000ta-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 15:53:03 +0100 X-Priority: 3 Received: from bob.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152wU1-0000tT-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 15:53:02 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: by bob.dera.gov.uk; (8.8.8/1.3/10May95) id PAA07761; Thu, 24 May 2001 15:56:46 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 32048 invoked from network); 24 May 2001 15:14:30 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk (172.16.9.10) by baton.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 24 May 2001 15:14:30 -0000 Received: by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk; id PAA01531; Thu, 24 May 2001 15:07:46 GMT Received: from unknown(10.71.64.31) by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk via smap (3.2) id xma001508; Thu, 24 May 01 15:07:21 GMT Received: from FRN-MAIL-R1.dstl.gov.uk (unverified) by mailguard.dera.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 15:28:08 +0100 Received: by frn-mail-r1.dstl.gov.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 24 May 2001 15:19:49 +0100 Message-ID: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803D55C499@pdw-mail-r1.dstl.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Re: Beacons, contests? Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:19:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: As the one who originally suggested the contest idea at Wimborne suppose I ought to say something.... On the microwave bands, we have eaxctly the same problem of lack of activity and complaints from newcomers that there is no one to work. One the higher microwave bands, particularly the most popular one, 10GHz, there have been a series of cumulative contests, one Sunday per month for the 6 warm months of the year. Later we even had a series of home winter cumulatives to make up one day in each of the 12 months. When 24 and 47GHz became popular another 4 activity days were introduced for these. These activity days or cumulative contests, however users want to treat them, are the most popular events on the bands and occasionally have been known to get out most of the operators who have equipment - which on 10GHz was getting on for 100 stations a few years ago. The contest element is rarely taken seriously. For the big contesters there are other events to keep them happy - such as the 10GHz Trophy and the two May & October 432MHz to 248GHz contests. Interestingly, these larger true contests do not attract nearly the same amount of interest or operators as the cumulatives / activity days do - the really big guns come out, win, and go quiet again. The little stations don't usually bother for this, especially setting up for a full-blown 24 hour event. What I really meant for LF was something along the lines of a similar sort of cumulative contest, or activity day. Andy G4JNT > -- The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s). For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is prohibited and may be unlawful. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9738 invoked from network); 24 May 2001 12:41:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 24 May 2001 12:41:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 15062 invoked from network); 24 May 2001 12:41:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 24 May 2001 12:41:19 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152uKX-0008Mp-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:35:05 +0100 Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.81]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152uKU-0008Mk-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:35:02 +0100 Received: from [62.7.65.95] (helo=dave) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 152uJt-00046F-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:34:25 +0100 Message-ID: <001301c0e44e$0d5f3820$5f41073e@dave> From: "Dave Sergeant" To: "rsgb_lf_group" References: <3B0BB5D0.31147.4572B0@localhost> Subject: LF: Re: Beacons, contests? Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:21:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >From Dave G3YMC Just a few more comments! Although activity is low during the day there is rather more than you imagine. I monitor the band every day all day, and there are a number of stations - G8RW, G6RO, G3OLB, G6NB, G8IK and others - who are frequently active and in QSO. When I have time between my repairs I am sometimes on as well. However there is nothing like the amount of activity there was a year ago, when G3KEV, G3GRO, G3KAU etc were very active - and G3AQC! At this location there is often more activity in the day than during the so called active times of Saturday and Sunday am. What I do miss is activity in the early mornings - 0600-0700 - which is a time I can normally be on. I have a normal (Yaesu) 350Hz CW filter, typical of what a keen hf cw operator would have. Not having the steeper slopes of the latest rigs I find it sometimes hard to find a clear spot in busy times (when they do occur that is!), and being one of the weaker signals find calling CQ at those times rather pointless - I have to content myself in working the big stations. Particularly in the winter months when CFH is booming in on 137 and there is slow cw beaconing just below 136 there is not much band left! The amateur who has a quick listen on a bit of string and a deaf receiver will indeed hear a few stations, but if we are to develop their interest we need to whet their appetites. Slow cw beacons and Wolf mean nothing to them, they need to hear normal cw, and realise that these stations are working stuff they cannot hear to get them to delve deeper. Activity periods certainly will do that, but I cannot see a 599001 style contest will work in our narrow band. Perhaps we ought to try it to prove me wrong!! 73s Dave G3YMC dsergeant@btinternet.com dsergeant@iee.org http://www.dsergeant.btinternet.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21405 invoked from network); 24 May 2001 12:16:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 24 May 2001 12:16:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 28007 invoked from network); 24 May 2001 12:15:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 24 May 2001 12:15:31 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152tul-00088g-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:08:27 +0100 Received: from mail4.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.193.211]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152tuJ-00088b-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:07:59 +0100 Received: from modem-28.deagol.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.152.156] helo=g3aqc) by mail4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 152ttX-0000w1-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:07:11 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c0e44a$014e5ec0$9c98883e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. Data. Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:05:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Many thanks to all those who responded for my request for info.
I now have some idea what the devices are,but its interesting that not all the data was the same!  73s  Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8670 invoked from network); 24 May 2001 10:11:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 24 May 2001 10:11:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 4724 invoked from network); 24 May 2001 10:10:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 24 May 2001 10:10:55 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152rty-00075e-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:59:30 +0100 Received: from kuku-rwcmta.excite.com ([198.3.99.63] helo=kuku.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152rtu-00075X-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:59:26 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from bronty ([199.172.153.112]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20010524095815.XRWK14474.kuku.excite.com@bronty> for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 02:58:15 -0700 Message-ID: <10568236.990698295490.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 02:57:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "john sexton" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: new LFers, contests, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 62.253.64.5 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All, For me, any increase in activity would be welcome. I have the rx on all day and 90% of the time, there is nothing on the band other than static. The activity there is, is mostly from continental europe, F, D and PA. Activity from the UK has slumped to an all-time low, with Bob, G8RW, being the only regular UK station to be heard. Contests, Data modes are all welcome from my perspective. The day that this becomes a problem we can sort it out, but we are a long way from that. It would be nice to have a few CQs answered. There is more activity on the reflector than on the band at least by UK ops. That should stir things up, hi! 73 John, G4CNN _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2150 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 23:55:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 23:55:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 762 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 23:55:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 23 May 2001 23:55:04 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152iO4-0002Y8-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 00:49:56 +0100 Received: from carbon.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.92]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152iO3-0002Y3-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 00:49:55 +0100 Received: from [213.1.77.110] (helo=default) by carbon.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 152iNV-0000Qw-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 00:49:21 +0100 Message-ID: <004b01c0e3e2$67164280$c05101d5@default> From: "Alan Melia" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: Enammeled Copper Wire Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 00:44:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Fred that is really a commercial quantity you want. A suggestion I might make....If I wanted that much I might seek out a local electric motor rewinder. They must buy this stuff buy the cart-load. A local one here I did some radio work for has racks of the stuff in his stores. See if you can get a reel from him or whether he would buy you a reel with his next order for a small handling charge. You get his bulk prices then. Cheers de Alan G3NYK Alan.Melia@btinternet.com -----Original Message----- From: Fred Rattray To: Lf Group Date: 23 May 2001 23:10 Subject: LF: Enammeled Copper Wire Does anyone know a cheap source of enammeled copper wire. 18 or 20 SWG? Its for a toroid I,m to wind for a Proton Magnetometer and I need in excess of 500 metres. 73 Fred G4SPR Cumbria. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18408 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 23:09:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 23:09:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 25567 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 23:09:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 23 May 2001 23:09:02 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152hh3-00026Q-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 00:05:29 +0100 Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.111]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152hh2-00026L-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 00:05:29 +0100 Received: from [213.1.81.192] (helo=default) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 152hgS-0007Pn-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 00:04:52 +0100 Message-ID: <002201c0e3dc$30d43de0$c05101d5@default> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: new LFers, contests, etc. Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 22:57:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All, as one who has not yet got round the waving a soldering iron over the components of my RF 'soil-heating kit', I hesitate to express an opinion, but I will..... (prepare to be bored stiff....) I was very close to losing interest in 73kHz because I did not hear a station on it in the first year of listening. When 136 came along I heard Lech and another station the first weekend. That was using an SSB bandwidth RX (HF150) and a stray bit of insulated wire (which turned out later to have broken inside the insulation, so was probably less than 20 feet long and wouldn't tune.) I continued to listen and knew there was activity as most afternoons I would hear G3KEV calling CQ. I corresponded by packet with John G4GVC and received at lot of help and encouagement. When on rare occasions they did work someone, I realised that could not hear the other station and started a few changes to the aerial, acquired waterfall s/w, dug out an audio CW filter ( boy did that have a thick layer of dust on it!!). You may remember my questions about on the reflector about "how do I know my receive system is sensitive enough?" and discussions about DCF39. A 2.5kHz bandwidth did not stop me enjoying the band. Mal was pretty 'big' here just down the coast, and I realised, as most amateurs who have used morse, that my inability to cope sometimes with his nearby signal was my equipment problem, which I eventually corrected. Until eventually the time came when I read the call-sign of a German station calling Mal, to whom Mal replied "sri OM QRN 73" after 3 tries. Then I knew I had 'arrived' (and that was with a 1.2m loop aerial) To me, the moral to this is that strong stations will not discourage newcommers. I can remember in the 1999-2000 winter when there was a succession of stations audible from about 0730 to lunchtime both Saturday and Sunday. Yes it was generally quite gentlemanly, but many CQs were put out over weak continental stations I could see but barely read on the Ropex frequency. When a strong station works some DX you have a chance to compare the reports...."MMmm he is not 559 with me only about 439...what do I need to improve?" Even if the strong station is QRSSing at least it is activity on the band (I wonder if he is wonking someone??)....better than listening to DCF39 !! As others have said it is activity that is required. Bob G8RW is about the only station providing regular band occupancy, with Tom sometimes later in the afternoon. I ofen hear a staion put out a couple of fairly short CQs and then leave the band. There is sometimes more activity from France than the UK. Maybe a few more attended 'beacons' in terms of 'auto cqers' to keep Bob Company or fill some of the other times maybe in the early evenings would help. Not all summer days are filled with static here. Even then QRSS will facilitate QSOs even in bad static, when maybe the hand-speed operators want to save their ears.. Expeditions and special events have been exciting as they have brought a lot of activity but only for 24 hours or so. I suspect any form of contest might be the same. Possibly something on the lines of the Microwave Cumulatives and scoring system)might work. These seem to be fairly 'laid-back' contests compared with HF events, and could even use weekday evenings, I think weekends ought to be avoided if possible. As we all know all the active calls and locators, we might have to invent a unique bit of information to be exchanged. As one interested in propagation, it would be interesting to schedule 'Cumulatives' at different hours to probe DX possibilities at times that probably haven't been explored. I am sure Christer and the rest of us do not want the "R 599 QRZ" type of contest, but I am sure he would like more stations to work. (Bore over...) Cheers de Alan G3NYK JO02PB Alan.Melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6235 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 22:16:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 22:16:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 29756 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 22:15:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 23 May 2001 22:15:43 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152gic-0001eD-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 23:03:02 +0100 Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.176] helo=protactinium) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152gib-0001e8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 23:03:01 +0100 Received: from [213.122.114.199] (helo=default) by protactinium with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 152gi1-0002vA-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 23:02:26 +0100 Message-ID: <003201c0e3dc$ea7f5ea0$c7727ad5@default> From: "Fred Rattray" To: "Lf Group" Subject: LF: Enammeled Copper Wire Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 22:02:36 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Does anyone know a cheap source of enammeled copper wire.
18 or 20 SWG?
Its for a toroid I,m to wind for a Proton Magnetometer and I need in excess of 500 metres.
 
73
Fred
G4SPR
Cumbria.
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13969 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 21:13:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 21:13:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 11106 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 21:12:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 23 May 2001 21:12:41 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152fqW-0001BT-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 22:07:08 +0100 Received: from fep03.swip.net ([130.244.199.131] helo=fep03-svc.swip.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152fqV-0001BO-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 22:07:07 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([212.151.97.30]) by fep03-svc.swip.net with SMTP id <20010523210717.BRYS20106.fep03-svc.swip.net@oemcomputer> for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 23:07:17 +0200 Message-ID: <0a6b01c0e3cc$7171f0a0$1e6197d4@oemcomputer> From: "Johan Bodin" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: SV: Re Data. Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 23:07:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Laurie I don't know about the BDY62 but I have two marine NDB transmitter "wrecks" containing dozens of Delco DTS-423. These transmitters have been operating on 308 kHz here in SM in days gone by... >From the Delco data book: The Delco DTS-423 is an NPN triple diffused silicon power transistor. Vcbo - 400v Vebo - 5v Vceo - 400v Ic - 3.5amps Icpeak - 10amps Ib - 2amps Pd - 100watts 73 Johan Bodin SM6LKM From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4889 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 19:45:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 19:45:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 22758 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 19:44:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 23 May 2001 19:44:39 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152eUM-0000Ta-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 20:40:10 +0100 Received: from fortune-rwcmta.excite.com ([198.3.99.203] helo=fortune.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152eUL-0000T8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 20:40:09 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from bronty ([199.172.153.112]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20010523193856.RDWH4228.fortune.excite.com@bronty> for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:38:56 -0700 Message-ID: <32864068.990646736144.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 12:38:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "john sexton" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re Data. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 62.253.64.5 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Laurie, My book shows: BDY62 NPN Silicon. High power amp. European equivalent BDY13. BDY13 = BUX16 = BD124 = 2N3055 Collector current 2A, 200V, P 100W, Gain >15, f up to 5MHz. DTS423 NPN Silicon. = FT423 = RCA413 High power amp. Collector current 500mA, 400V, P 125W, Gain >20, f up to 4MHz pin out like above = 2N3055. 73, John, G4CNN _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1227 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 17:34:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 17:34:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 27284 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 17:34:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 23 May 2001 17:34:16 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152cRM-0007xU-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 18:28:56 +0100 Received: from cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.195.176]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152cRL-0007xP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 18:28:55 +0100 Received: from modem-72.lemonpeel-angel.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.37.72] helo=g3aqc) by cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 152cQm-0003Qh-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 18:28:21 +0100 Message-ID: <000e01c0e3ad$b4382680$4825893e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. Beacon Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 18:27:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
The Sun Spot No. is up again also possible CMEs so wont run the beacon tonight. Last night PA fuses blew at about 0000utc,sorry.  73s Laurie. 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29707 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 16:37:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 16:37:05 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: (qmail 2273 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 16:36:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 23 May 2001 16:36:27 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152bWw-0007Vw-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 17:30:38 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.89]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152bWw-0007Vr-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 17:30:38 +0100 Received: from telemetry.demon.co.uk ([194.222.19.114]) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 152bWL-000KhN-0V; Wed, 23 May 2001 17:30:01 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:30:31 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, "Andrew Talbot" From: "Tom Boucher" Subject: Re: LF: RE: Big PA In-reply-to: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803D55C491@pdw-mail-r1.dstl.gov.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.03a Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: G4JNT wrote: >> I can supply an 81K size .PCX file of the full circuit diagram. If anyone >wants a copy please contact me directly as it is too big to send on the >reflector. Yes please Andy. Thanks for the info. Tom, G3OLB From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18377 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 16:09:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 16:09:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 2147 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 16:09:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 23 May 2001 16:09:00 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152b7a-0007Nj-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 17:04:26 +0100 Received: from mail4.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.193.211]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152b7Y-0007Ne-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 17:04:25 +0100 Received: from modem-61.percula-clown.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.49.189] helo=g3aqc) by mail4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 152b70-0003XF-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 17:03:50 +0100 Message-ID: <001e01c0e3a1$e570f940$bd31893e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re Data. Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:02:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Can anyone help me with data on some old Bi-polar devices or perhaps point me at a source of info. The devices are:-
BDY 62
DTS 423 (Delco)
Any help would be appreciated. 73s Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19244 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 15:31:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 15:31:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 20120 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 15:30:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 23 May 2001 15:30:59 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152aWK-00070x-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 16:25:56 +0100 Received: from cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.195.176]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152aWI-00070p-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 16:25:55 +0100 Received: from modem-86.pinnatus-batfish.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.50.86] helo=g3aqc) by cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 152aVT-0001Eg-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 16:25:04 +0100 Message-ID: <002401c0e39c$7ac04c40$5632893e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. Beacons Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:23:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
I am as keen as anyone to encourage more activity on the LF bands 136 and 73Khz.
It has always been the aim of amateurs to improve their stations by attempting DX contacts.A band without DX is less intresting.
I belive that my Beacon activities last winter helped to promote interest in 136,especially in the USA. More people were encouraged to look for the signals and to improve ants. etc. Finally T/A communication was accomplished, not all my work of course but at least the band has been proved to be capable of supporting long distance communication and must therefore be more intresting to newcomers.I am still running the beacon from time to time in the summer in order to try and understand  propagation further .Surely this  additional activity  is valuable even in the UK and EU for setting up and testing Rx.equipment. I dont think I have ever caused interference to stations 100 Hz above me. If I have let me know. 73s Laurie.     
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9549 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 15:31:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 15:31:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 20166 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 15:31:01 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 23 May 2001 15:31:01 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152aW6-00070n-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 16:25:42 +0100 Received: from mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152aW2-00070i-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 16:25:39 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id RAA937344 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 17:25:04 +0200 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20010523162554.44271c70@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> X-Sender: pb623250@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:25:54 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: Re: LF: Re: LF activity In-reply-to: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: To be honest I don't understand most of the 'newcomers' problem. Regarding the receiver : 136kHz is CW only (apart from a rare PSK / BPSK signal), so the ability to copy CW is the first need. I assume that most of the HF CW operators have a narrow filter (500Hz or better) in their receiver and that all more or less recent tranceivers start at 100kHz or below. So listening on 136kHz shouldn't be a problem. Regarding the antenna : I have been able to copy the stronger UK, PA and DL stations (eg. G3LDO, G3YXM, M0MBU, G3AQC, PA0SE, DK8KW etc...) using an untuned 10m long wire. Signals were weak, but so was QRM/QRN. With a tuned 10m long wire I can hear alomost as good as with the 'big' TX antenna. All signals are just a few S-points down, but that doesn't matter as QRM/QRN is also down and the SNR is almost the same. Maybe on a very quiet day and with very weak signal the big antenna is a bit better. Making a tuned antenna is a 1 hour job, provided you have a ferrite rod, a 500pF variable capacitor and a few meter of CuL wire (0.5mm or so). If you can lay your hands on an old MW radio you can 'recuperate' all the stuff you need. BTW : if you want to make someone with an SSB filter hear any ham signal on 136kHz you need 1 strong station to transmit. If you have 5 to 10 strong stations transmitting within 2kHz only experienced CW operators will be able to copy any signal out of the QRM (and these experienced CW operators most likely have a decent CW filter). I like the 'activity periods' (saturday / sunday morning) much more that the idea to have a contest. 73, Rik From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 715 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 14:46:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 14:46:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 401 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 14:46:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 23 May 2001 14:46:18 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152ZmO-0006dq-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 15:38:28 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152ZmK-0006dl-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 15:38:24 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 152Zlm-0005Wg-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 15:37:50 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from [147.197.130.252] (helo=mj9ar) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 152Zll-0004SP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 15:37:49 +0100 From: "James Moritz" Organization: University of Hertfordshire To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 15:38:34 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: LF: Re: LF activity X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Message-ID: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF Group, I have no experience of contest operating, so I will not offer judgement as to whether I think it is a good idea or not. However, I am not convinced by the argument that the band is too narrow. At the moment, the band seems to be used very inefficiently - for example, although the "CW" band segment extends from 136.0 - 137.4, it is rare to hear any CW signals outside about 136.4 - 136.9, even during the busy periods. Some of this is due to local QRM, but clearly there is plenty of room for more operators on the band simultaneously. The equipment demands for casual LF reception aren't really that demanding - with high noise levels and low ERPs on LF, the dynamic range and filter shape factor of fairly modern HF rigs that most amateurs seem to have are not likely to be seriously challenged by amateur signals, beacon or otherwise. But LF receive is usually an afterthought on an HF rig, also 136kHz is more than a factor of 10 lower in frequency, and more than a factor of 10 narrower in bandwidth than any HF band, so different techniques must be applied for good results. Using an HF RX with an SSB filter, poor LF sensitivity and a random, untuned bit of wire plugged into the antenna socket just isn't going to work very well, and even with the best will in the world, reception of a few local stations is all that can be expected. Once someone has become interested, it has to be up to them to improve their station, just as for any other band or mode. Would anyone expect to make EME contacts with a 2m FM handheld? The main thing that will encourage more people to listen on the band is more signals - any recognisable signal has to be better than none. Permanent beacons probably use up too much bandwidth and have licensing implications, but why not have more temporary beacon signals for a few hours when the band is quiet, as Dick suggests? This could be done in any mode or band segment. Obviously, a sensible choice of frequency and time would be required to avoid problems, but there seems to be plenty of room, as noted above. The other possibility that was raised is to have more cross-band activity - since it is much easier to get set up for receive on LF than to transmit, this would give an easy route for people to get involved before they have a full tranceive capability on LF. Again, most modern HF rigs with LF receive capability seem to have multiple VFOs, memories etc, so this should be quite easy for a lot of people to try. Probably the most important thing here is publicity. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1344 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 14:29:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 14:29:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 29158 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 14:28:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 23 May 2001 14:28:30 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152ZWo-0006Wj-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 15:22:22 +0100 X-Priority: 3 Received: from bob.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152ZWl-0006We-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 15:22:19 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: by bob.dera.gov.uk; (8.8.8/1.3/10May95) id PAA03852; Wed, 23 May 2001 15:26:03 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 5113 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 15:15:56 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk (172.16.9.10) by baton.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 23 May 2001 15:15:56 -0000 Received: by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk; id PAA24098; Wed, 23 May 2001 15:09:17 GMT Received: from unknown(10.71.64.31) by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk via smap (3.2) id xma023300; Wed, 23 May 01 15:07:19 GMT Received: from FRN-MAIL-R1.dstl.gov.uk (unverified) by mailguard.dera.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 15:27:58 +0100 Received: by frn-mail-r1.dstl.gov.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 23 May 2001 15:19:43 +0100 Message-ID: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803D55C491@pdw-mail-r1.dstl.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Big PA Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 15:19:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > Could you give me info on the little pot-core you use for your driver > transformer in your PA? Material, turns? > > I used a Farnell 559-570 ferrite sleeve, intended for EMC suppression, > no info on material, 16 turns on primary (1.1 mH) and 29 turns It is a pot core, RM10 size and must be ungapped and needs to be this big to get all the insulated turns on, although for power requirements alone, a much smaller core will do. The core is otherwise OK for 50 Watt SMPSUs. Material 3C85 or similar for SMPSU use. 12 turns on all windings, ie 3 x 12 in total - two windings for the FETs and one input. 1:1 turns ratio is ideal, as the FETS are then switched with a +/- 15 V drive signal, assuming the TC4426 is run from a 15V rail. The TC4426 gives out a 0 - 15V waveform so directly coupling into a transformer.......... I guess it only survived at all coz of some sort of protection built in ! Also, ferrite material designed for EMC use is designed to be lossy - this sort of sleve / core should never really be used for anything other than suppression. I can supply an 81K size .PCX file of the full circuit diagram. If anyone wants a copy please contact me directly as it is too big to send on the reflector. Does anyone want to host it on their web page ? In view of the EMail problems on this account earlier, can you also copy requests to g4jnt@thersgb.net just in case this packs up again. Andy G4JNT -- The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s). For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is prohibited and may be unlawful. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17040 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 13:27:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 13:27:25 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: (qmail 13561 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 13:26:53 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 23 May 2001 13:26:53 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152YTb-0005wn-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 14:14:59 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.89]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152YTa-0005wi-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 14:14:58 +0100 Received: from telemetry.demon.co.uk ([194.222.19.114]) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 152YSz-00069I-0V; Wed, 23 May 2001 14:14:22 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:08:22 +0100 To: "RSGB LF Group" , g4jnt@thersgb.net From: "Tom Boucher" Subject: LF: Big PA MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.03a Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Andy 'JNT Could you give me info on the little pot-core you use for your driver transformer in your PA? Material, turns? I used a Farnell 559-570 ferrite sleeve, intended for EMC suppression, no info on material, 16 turns on primary (1.1 mH) and 29 turns quadrifilar on the secondary. The TC-4426 driving it got rather hot so I ac coupled it with a 0.33 mFd which seemed to improve things a little. Thanks, Tom G3OLB From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9006 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 12:45:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 12:45:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 20269 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 12:44:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 23 May 2001 12:44:44 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152XsR-0005Zh-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:36:35 +0100 Received: from lepidachrosite.lion-access.net ([212.19.217.3]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152XsP-0005Zc-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:36:34 +0100 Received: from w8k3f0 (1Cust38.tnt16.rtm1.nl.uu.net [213.116.126.38]) by lepidachrosite.lion-access.net (I-Lab) with SMTP id 66AFDCB0DA for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:35:05 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <003001c0e385$69240e20$267e74d5@w8k3f0> From: "Dick Rollema" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3B0A682B.18219.DCF570@localhost> <3B0ADA78.D232A09B@alg.demon.co.uk> Subject: LF: Stimulating activity on LF Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:37:45 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: To All from PA0SE, Steve, GW4ALG, wrote: > Beaconing might have been useful in the early days, but it was, > and remains, a potential source of QRM for many experimenters. > Beaconing is an inappropriate use of our tiny 136 allocation. > Besides, we don't need dull radio beacons - we need bright, > effective communicators . . . to encourage more communicators. I am not in favour of contests on LF. I think the best way to attract newcomers to the band is to make yourself heard over the weekends so there are signals to listen for.. We do miss G4GVC! During weekdays there is hardly any activity at all on 136kHz and a bit of beaconing could be useful for the occasional listener. I would be prepared to do beaconing during some of the mornings and/or afternoons of Monday through Friday. Would there be any objection against doing so? And if not, what would be the best frequency? I would suggest very near or at the lower limit of the band. 73, Dick, PA0SE JO22GD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11773 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 12:25:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 12:25:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 26493 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 12:24:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 23 May 2001 12:24:29 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152Xab-0005XM-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:18:09 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from [213.2.16.106] (helo=rsgb.org.uk) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152XaX-0005XH-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:18:05 +0100 Received: from miked by rsgb.org.uk with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v4.0.0.R) for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:06:25 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Mike Dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:06:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: LF: Beacons, contests? Message-ID: <3B0BB5D0.31147.4572B0@localhost> In-reply-to: <001c01c0e36b$29be0a20$7a6601d5@dave> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-Return-Path: miked@mail X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: G3YMC wrote (agreeing with GW4ALG): > I appreciate the need for beacons > for those doing transatlantic tests and similar, but the use of frequencies just > below 136kHz is a disincentive to those with basic receivers as Steve suggests. This misses the point. The people we were discussing are not LF operators who are trying to listen to weak stations despite QRM, they are people who have checked the band several times and heard nothing at all. It is usually an issue of sensitivity, rather than selectivity. Certainly more can be done with publicity, but the key to it all is being able to predict when someone with a poor Rx will be almost certain to hear activity. This is why a contest was suggested. Of course, there are alternatives, and any suggestions are most welcome. Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28772 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 11:54:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 11:54:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 7886 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 11:53:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 23 May 2001 11:53:43 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152X7Z-0005C8-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:48:09 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from [213.2.16.106] (helo=rsgb.org.uk) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152X7V-0005Bz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:48:05 +0100 Received: from miked by rsgb.org.uk with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v4.0.0.R) for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:33:11 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Mike Dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 12:33:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: LF: GBR is 75 Message-ID: <3B0BAE04.21064.26FF24@localhost> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-Return-Path: miked@mail X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: The following has come in to our news desk this morning from G4KHU: > "Listeners may be aware that the UK Royal Navy are celebrating the > Centenary of the Royal Navy Submarine service with a gathering of UK and > overseas submarines in the Clyde. This year is also the 75th anniversary > of operation of the GBR transmitter (Rugby). > As part of this celebration 'It is hoped' that a special A1A Morse code > transmission from the GBR long wave transmitter will be made. > For those with an interest in VLF reception please listen to 16kHz (yes 16 > not 60kHz!) on Tuesday 29th May 2001 at 1200GMT and 1345GMT." Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28210 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 11:42:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 11:42:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 13694 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 11:42:09 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 23 May 2001 11:42:09 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152WtH-0005B0-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:33:23 +0100 Received: from mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152WtF-0005Av-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:33:21 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id NAA742974 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:32:44 +0200 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20010523123334.313fec72@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> X-Sender: pb623250@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 12:33:34 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: LF: SXV plots In-reply-to: <29BDD4F529FCD311B631009027357C4E02258719@btss103a.swh.sk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello all, I just uploaded a series of recordings of the Greek station SXV. I received this recordings from Alan (G3NYK), they date from the period February - May of this year. Once more a nice collection of recordings that give a lot of information about the propagation on a trans-European (north-south) path of about 2300km. At this moment there are only the plots, without any comments, but it is the intention to compare these data with solar events in the near future. The plots can be accessed via my web page or direct at : http://www.qsl.net/on7yd/136sxv.htm 73, Rik ON7YD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5369 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 10:42:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 10:42:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 26443 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 10:42:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 23 May 2001 10:42:04 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152Vwa-0004dR-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:32:44 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: High Received: from smtp-1.visp.telinco.net ([212.1.130.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152VwZ-0004dM-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:32:43 +0100 Received: from [212.1.137.182] (helo=standalone) by smtp-1.visp.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 152VpA-0002pd-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:25:04 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:24:42 +0100 Message-ID: <01C0E37A.F6522DF0.g4jnt@thersgb.net> From: "Andy talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Lost EMail Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 11:24:17 +0100 Importance: high X-Priority: 1 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Due to a major c__k up here, I have not received any external EMail on the works account since yesterday morning, including any messages from this reflector. So Mike 'XDV, if you have posted a summary of Sundays forum to the group already, could you resend it to me pse. The Flight Refuelling ARS would like a copy, or some sort of write up, for their club newsletter. Any other comms with me had better be on this (home) account for now. Fortunately can get access to it in the office. Andy G4JNT From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7906 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 09:42:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 09:42:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 13036 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 09:42:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 23 May 2001 09:42:22 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152Uys-0004G4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:31:02 +0100 Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.111]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152Uyr-0004Fw-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:31:01 +0100 Received: from [213.1.102.122] (helo=dave) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 152UyC-0005Qp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:30:21 +0100 Message-ID: <001c01c0e36b$29be0a20$7a6601d5@dave> From: "Dave Sergeant" To: "rsgb_lf_group" References: <3B0A682B.18219.DCF570@localhost> <3B0ADA78.D232A09B@alg.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: LF: LF Round Table Report Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:29:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >From Dave G3YMC Steve Rawlings made comment on the proposals for 136 contests and use of beacons. I would endorse his comments. The band is far too narrow to support contest activity, but more could be done to encourage 'activity days' and similar. Beacons in the UK and Europe are now no longer needed for local use. I appreciate the need for beacons for those doing transatlantic tests and similar, but the use of frequencies just below 136kHz is a disincentive to those with basic receivers as Steve suggests. Incidently, I note the suggestion for monitoring the 75kHz time standard in the USA - surely this frequency is used for this purpose in other parts of the world other than just from HB land?? 60kHz most definitely is. 73s Dave G3YMC dsergeant@btinternet.com dsergeant@iee.org http://www.dsergeant.btinternet.co.uk ***************** Original message: A few personal comments follow. > Several suggestions were made as to how to encourage newcomers onto > 136kHz. It was felt that once active, stations were reasonably well > looked after by other band users. > The problem was identified as many people trying to listen on the band > with poor receive systems, then hearing nothing and giving up. As a point of interest, I regularly work stations on 136 kHz who have no CW filter at all! A few are using homemade filters, and others are using WW2 receivers with very poor IF filtering. These ops may not cover 135.7 - 137.8 kHz with 9 feet of bandspread, or have 50 Hz filters - but they are some of the keenest users of the band! But it is true that we should do more to ensure that newcomers are aware of the need to resonate their receive antenna! > Some way was needed to ensure that casual listeners would have a fair > chance of hearing one of the stronger stations. Suggestions were: > . . . . . . Informal CW beacons, perhaps using the transatlantic slot > below 136kHz, during daylight. Ouch! If we are considering "people trying to listen on the band with poor receive systems", the in-band QRM from the QRSS beacons running from 8:00pm to 8:00am last winter probably had a bigger adverse affect upon attracting newcomers in the southern part of the UK than any other single issue. Beaconing might have been useful in the early days, but it was, and remains, a potential source of QRM for many experimenters. Beaconing is an inappropriate use of our tiny 136 allocation. Besides, we don't need dull radio beacons - we need bright, effective communicators . . . to encourage more communicators. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11519 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 09:30:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 09:30:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 1944 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 09:29:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 23 May 2001 09:29:44 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152UoC-00043n-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:20:00 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from jaws.cisco.com ([198.135.0.150] helo=cisco.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152Uo1-00043h-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:19:49 +0100 Received: from virgin.net (stbryant-isdn-home.cisco.com [10.49.137.202]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA16366 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:18:28 +0100 (BST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3B0B8036.DC16F682@virgin.net> Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:17:43 +0100 From: "Stewart Bryant" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: SV: LF Round Table Report References: <003001c0e2d0$32e4bc20$de1097d4@W98.swipnet.se> <3B0ACA4C.E84F907@alg.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Steve Rawlings wrote: > Christer SM6PXJ wrote: > > > > /... * Run a contest, or series of cumulative contests .../ > > > > /...raise these issues with the RSGB HF Contests Committee.../ > > > > Please, don't. > > I agree. Please, don't. > > But, as a Group, we could probably do more to publicise - and > support - the existing activity periods on Saturday and Sunday > mornings. > > Regards to all, > Steve GW4ALG Why not? The most that a contest would last would be between 8 and 24 hours. Anyone with a personal dislike of contests does not have to participate, and I am sure could usefully ocupy themselves elsewhere for that relatively short time. For others it provides a focused event to try the band out, listen, get on for the first time, make some station improvement etc. It is better to attempt the event once and see what happens, than not to know. If it goes wrong we get an idea of how to change the rules. If no one turns up, we know not to do it again. If it is popular we repeat the event. 73 Stewart G3YSX From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1851 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 07:54:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 23 May 2001 07:54:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 2098 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 07:54:06 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 23 May 2001 07:54:06 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152TF5-0003LV-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 08:39:39 +0100 Received: from ns3.swh.sk ([192.108.125.37]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152TF1-0003LQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 08:39:35 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from hermes.swh.sk (hermes [192.108.125.60]) by ns3.swh.sk (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4N7cmv13198 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:38:59 +0200 Received: from btss101a.swh.sk (btss.swh.sk [139.24.136.15]) by hermes.swh.sk (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA00014 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:38:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by btss.swh.sk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:38:43 +0200 Message-ID: <29BDD4F529FCD311B631009027357C4E02258719@btss103a.swh.sk> From: "Gasparik Richard" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re:LF Round Table Report/HAM meeting in OM Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 09:38:39 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hallo LF-ers... Yes, contest is not very good idea. Look on HF bands every weekend. But we could do more publicity. I do it in Slovakia and I do my best. In our hamradio magazine Radiozurnal are LF articles in every issue. Or...in two weeks (9.juni 2001) will be the HAM meeting in Borovce (Slovakia) and I'll demonstrate the LF station there. I hope, some stations will be on the band. I'll operate with portable antenna, so my signal will be not so strong. I'll try to operate some CW station in OM, OK, OE and HA and some QRSS long distance QSOs. I hope, see you all on saturday 9.juni 2001 from 6.00 untill 14.00 UTC on 136kHz. Best regards...73 de Rich OM2TW From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12831 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 21:32:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2001 21:32:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 6694 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 21:31:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 22 May 2001 21:31:31 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152Jfs-0007MW-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 22:26:40 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.41]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152Jfq-0007MR-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 22:26:39 +0100 Received: from alg.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.80]) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 152JfI-000OaI-0C for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 21:26:05 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3B0ADA78.D232A09B@alg.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:30:32 +0100 From: "Steve Rawlings" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: LF Round Table Report References: <3B0A682B.18219.DCF570@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Very many thanks to Mike for his report of the LF Forum proceedings. A few personal comments follow. > Several suggestions were made as to how to encourage newcomers onto > 136kHz. It was felt that once active, stations were reasonably well > looked after by other band users. > The problem was identified as many people trying to listen on the band > with poor receive systems, then hearing nothing and giving up. As a point of interest, I regularly work stations on 136 kHz who have no CW filter at all! A few are using homemade filters, and others are using WW2 receivers with very poor IF filtering. These ops may not cover 135.7 - 137.8 kHz with 9 feet of bandspread, or have 50 Hz filters - but they are some of the keenest users of the band! But it is true that we should do more to ensure that newcomers are aware of the need to resonate their receive antenna! > Some way was needed to ensure that casual listeners would have a fair > chance of hearing one of the stronger stations. Suggestions were: > . . . . . . Informal CW beacons, perhaps using the transatlantic slot > below 136kHz, during daylight. Ouch! If we are considering "people trying to listen on the band with poor receive systems", the in-band QRM from the QRSS beacons running from 8:00pm to 8:00am last winter probably had a bigger adverse affect upon attracting newcomers in the southern part of the UK than any other single issue. Beaconing might have been useful in the early days, but it was, and remains, a potential source of QRM for many experimenters. Beaconing is an inappropriate use of our tiny 136 allocation. Besides, we don't need dull radio beacons - we need bright, effective communicators . . . to encourage more communicators. Regards to all, Steve GW4ALG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21495 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 20:24:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2001 20:24:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 21714 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 20:23:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 22 May 2001 20:23:36 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152Ib7-0006t8-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 21:17:41 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.88]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152Ib4-0006t3-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 21:17:38 +0100 Received: from alg.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.80]) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 152IaW-000MIu-0U for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 21:17:04 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3B0ACA4C.E84F907@alg.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 21:21:32 +0100 From: "Steve Rawlings" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: SV: LF Round Table Report References: <003001c0e2d0$32e4bc20$de1097d4@W98.swipnet.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Christer SM6PXJ wrote: > > /... * Run a contest, or series of cumulative contests .../ > > /...raise these issues with the RSGB HF Contests Committee.../ > > Please, don't. I agree. Please, don't. But, as a Group, we could probably do more to publicise - and support - the existing activity periods on Saturday and Sunday mornings. Regards to all, Steve GW4ALG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2135 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 19:47:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2001 19:47:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 7791 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 19:46:42 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 22 May 2001 19:46:42 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152I2f-0006Yu-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 20:42:05 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from rhun.esoterica.pt ([195.22.0.26]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152I2e-0006Yp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 20:42:04 +0100 Received: from srv17slx.esoterica.pt (srv17slx.esoterica.pt [195.22.0.47]) by rhun.esoterica.pt (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4MJfSg14881 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 20:41:28 +0100 (WEST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from slave2 (por366.esoterica.pt [195.22.18.67]) by srv17slx.esoterica.pt (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA18660 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 20:41:28 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010522194129.0084d790@pop3.esoterica.pt> X-Sender: brian@pop3.esoterica.pt X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:41:29 +0000 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Brian Rogerson" Subject: Re: LF: Re. Web Pages In-reply-to: <001401c0e2ec$4ec70940$22aa883e@g3aqc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Laurie, I may have found a better way of creating the page and have loaded it but only your page for the moment. Let me know if you succeed viewing it. 73, Brian At 19:22 22/05/01 +0100, you wrote: > Brian I am a complete computer idiot ! all I know is that I can see >attachments like the one that Alan has just sent. Dont know about Excel >files.Dont worry too much I will keep on trying. 73s Laurie. 73 Brian CT1DRP IN51QD 41 09 58N 08 39 11W http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~brian From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22416 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 18:37:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2001 18:37:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 6390 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 18:37:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 22 May 2001 18:37:19 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152Gth-0005zp-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 19:28:45 +0100 Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152Gtg-0005zk-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 19:28:44 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.65.43]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 15:27:30 -0300 Message-ID: <3B0A69E5.C143B1FD@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 06:30:14 -0700 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re. lf tests References: <000c01c0e2d1$2db5b820$9c27893e@g3aqc> Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit aurie Mayhead wrote:
Hi Laurie according to Aurorawatch alert the CME has already hit 73 de John VE1ZJThanks John for the report on last night.Sunspot No. up a bit-but I will try again tonight. Alan has advised a M3.0 class flare at 0600 on Sunday,may have arived by now,but worth a try. 73s Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13714 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 18:32:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2001 18:32:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 28895 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 18:31:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 22 May 2001 18:31:29 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152Gpk-0005zc-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 19:24:40 +0100 Received: from mail1.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.193.18]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152Gpf-0005zX-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 19:24:36 +0100 Received: from modem-34.edhel.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.170.34] helo=g3aqc) by mail1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 152Gp5-0005Bx-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 19:24:00 +0100 Message-ID: <001401c0e2ec$4ec70940$22aa883e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. Web Pages Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:22:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Brian I am a complete computer idiot ! all I know is that I can see attachments like the one that Alan has just sent. Dont know about Excel files.Dont worry too much I will keep on trying. 73s Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28468 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 15:21:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2001 15:21:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 5764 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 15:21:10 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 22 May 2001 15:21:10 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152Dma-0004Tq-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:09:12 +0100 Received: from mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152DmW-0004Tg-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:09:08 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id RAA648466 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 17:08:29 +0200 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20010522160920.32b78f2e@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> X-Sender: pb623250@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 16:09:20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: LF: contest on 136kHz ? In-reply-to: <3B0A682B.18219.DCF570@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >... >Several suggestions were made as to how to encourage newcomers onto 136kHz. It >was felt that once active, stations were reasonably well looked after by other >band users. >... >Suggestions were: >* Run a contest, or series of cumulative contests, perhaps as part of the >RSGB's "LF Cumulatives" which run on 160, 80 and 40m. >... I don't know if a 'traditional' contest is such a good idea. If might end up with only hearing a few strong stations CQ'ing forever while all weak (and interesting) signals are down in QRM. I think that 2kHz is just too less space for a contest unless we work out some rules that prevent certain (strong) stations to occupy a frequency all the time. For instance we could include that after a QSO the station that called CQ has to leave the frequency . The same rule should apply for a station that is calling CQ for certain time (eg. 2 minutes) without anyone responding. Maybe we even should enforce a 'dead time' of a few minutes after each QSO. 73, Rik ON7YD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25310 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 15:17:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2001 15:17:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 2104 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 15:16:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 22 May 2001 15:16:55 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152Dnk-0004UY-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:10:24 +0100 Received: from cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.195.172]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152Dnj-0004UQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:10:23 +0100 Received: from modem-28.marine-betta.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.39.156] helo=g3aqc) by cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 152DnA-0007em-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:09:48 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c0e2d1$2db5b820$9c27893e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. lf tests Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 16:08:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Thanks John for the report on last night.
Sunspot No. up a bit-but I will try again tonight. Alan has advised a M3.0 class flare at 0600 on Sunday,may have arived by now,but worth a try. 73s Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6952 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 15:09:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2001 15:09:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 24630 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 15:08:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 22 May 2001 15:08:53 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152Dh1-0004T0-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:03:27 +0100 Received: from fep04.swip.net ([130.244.199.132] helo=fep04-svc.swip.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152Dgy-0004Sv-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:03:24 +0100 Received: from W98 ([212.151.16.222]) by fep04-svc.swip.net with SMTP id <20010522150234.EKX15382.fep04-svc.swip.net@W98> for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 17:02:34 +0200 Message-ID: <003001c0e2d0$32e4bc20$de1097d4@W98.swipnet.se> From: "C Andersson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: SV: LF Round Table Report Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:02:09 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: /... * Run a contest, or series of cumulative contests .../ /...raise these issues with the RSGB HF Contests Committee.../ Please, don't. /sm6pxj From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7402 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 12:39:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2001 12:39:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 159 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 12:38:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 22 May 2001 12:38:42 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152BJL-0003BJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:30:51 +0100 Received: from cmailg3.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.195.173]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152BJG-0003BD-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:30:47 +0100 Received: from modem-96.aratan.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.120.224] helo=g3aqc) by cmailg3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 152BIf-0006dv-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:30:10 +0100 Message-ID: <002401c0e2ba$e035f1c0$e078883e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. Web Pages/VE1ZZ es ARGO Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:29:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hi John ,
Yes your mail of 21/05 did appear on the reflector. I am very pleased to hear that Jack now has a computer,but rather doubtful about a sked at this time of year. Propagation is so variable as beaconing has shown, that hitting the right  day/time
will be very difficult.I  also think that 10sec dots will be too short at this time.
I will be happy to look for Jack and would like his freq. Of course a report from Jack re. reception of EU signals would be great.
73s Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5271 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 12:37:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2001 12:37:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 28628 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 12:37:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 22 May 2001 12:37:10 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152BKu-0003Gy-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:32:28 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from [213.2.16.106] (helo=rsgb.org.uk) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152BKt-0003Gt-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:32:27 +0100 Received: from miked by rsgb.org.uk with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v4.0.0.R) for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:22:53 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Mike Dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:22:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: LF: LF Round Table Report Message-ID: <3B0A682B.18219.DCF570@localhost> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-Return-Path: miked@mail X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Notes on LF Round Table at Wimborne, Dorset, 20 May 2001 The meeting was attended by: G3XDV, M0BMU, G4JNT, G3YGF, G3AQC, G3LDO, G3YSX, G3GRO, G3HEJ and G3OLB. In addition, G0API represented our hosts the Flight Refuelling Amateur Radio Society, and GW3JBH called in as he happened to be holidaying in his caravan next door. Several attendees were unable to stay until the end at 1700. The morning saw a demonstration of a Tesla coil. The coil was about 1.5m high and it generated very spectacular sparks half a metre long. Other morning activities included a car boot sale of Litz wire, variometers etc. After a splendid pub lunch, the formal session started with M0BMU describing the latest data mode, WOLF, and how to keep its transmit bandwidth down. This was followed by G4JNT showing off his innovative 600W transmitter, and describing the various stages in its development. The final half hour was given over to a discussion. Two topics were raised: how to make the most of the 73kHz band before it is taken away, and how to encourage others onto 136kHz. It was felt that there should be a concerted effort to cross the Atlantic on 73kHz, although there may be up to 10dB more losses to overcome. To this end, stations in the US and Canada would be asked to monitor the HBG time signal on 75.0kHz to get experience with this part of the spectrum, and to report on propagation variations. Perhaps there should be a 73kHz activity period (month?) next winter to concentrate effort in the UK, mainland Europe and America. Several suggestions were made as to how to encourage newcomers onto 136kHz. It was felt that once active, stations were reasonably well looked after by other band users. The problem was identified as many people trying to listen on the band with poor receive systems, then hearing nothing and giving up. Some way was needed to ensure that casual listeners would have a fair chance of hearing one of the stronger stations. Suggestions were: * Run a contest, or series of cumulative contests, perhaps as part of the RSGB's "LF Cumulatives" which run on 160, 80 and 40m. Scoring could be similar to a VHF event. Include a receiving category. * Encourage crossband activity between 136kHz and 3.5 or 7MHz. This could be helped by a RadCom article on LF receiving techniques, followed by a crossband contest which could be entered either as an LF or MF station. Crossband preferred frequencies should be published. * Informal CW beacons, perhaps using the transatlantic slot below 136kHz, during daylight. G3XDV said he would raise these issues with the RSGB HF Contests Committee and the RadCom Editor. Our thanks to Flight Refuelling for the use of their club house. =============== Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13986 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 12:19:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2001 12:19:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 13806 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 12:18:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 22 May 2001 12:18:53 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152B0R-00033z-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:11:19 +0100 Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 152B0N-00033u-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:11:16 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.98.208]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 09:10:02 -0300 Message-ID: <3B0A905B.BC581731@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:14:19 -0400 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: lf tests Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Laurie, You were "M" copy last night. First saw you at 0115Z qsb out 0140, back in 0200, out 0220, back in 0230Z, Then I went to bed was out at cottage putting up antennae. I'm getting too old for this. Did you get my e-mail about Jack on 21 May? 73 de John VE1ZJ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19095 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 05:20:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2001 05:20:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 4100 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 05:19:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 22 May 2001 05:19:54 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1524VT-0008WK-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 06:14:55 +0100 Received: from cobalt4.source.net ([206.100.10.38]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1524VR-0008WF-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 06:14:53 +0100 Received: from dellml ([210.155.48.100]) by cobalt4.source.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA00889 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 22:14:15 -0700 Message-ID: <001301c0e27e$71b751d0$1a00a8c0@scgroup.com> From: "Stewart Nelson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3B08FCDC.484F74DF@virgin.net> Subject: LF: Re: Wimborne talk on Wolf Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:16:34 -0700 Organization: SC Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Stewart and all, > I was also thinking that you could send wolf on the divide down > CW transmitters that some folks use. By injecting the audio > tone from a PC into a 13.6MHz transceiver operating SSB and > then dividing down by 100 you should generate an equivalent > signal to the linear translation approach save for the envelope > shaping. Yes, I think that would work pretty well. For example, 800 Hz audio could represent a bit with no phase transition, 1300 Hz for a transition. The 500 Hz shift, divided by 100, would be 5 Hz, and over the 0.1 second bit time would give the desired 180 degree phase shift. > However by keying the carrier off-on during the transition > the normal CW wave shaping should clean up the signal. That should not be necessary, because the signal is constant amplitude. With smoother transitions one could have a quite narrow spectrum. > Does this work? Note that the error in the carrier will be the > dominant term, and not the error in the modulation, which may > have some advantages. > > Stewart G3YSX Yes, the divide by 100 should result in very good stability. If anyone would like to try transmitting this way, let me know and I'll add the mode to WOLF. 73, Stewart KK7KA From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28566 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 00:50:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 22 May 2001 00:50:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 29020 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 00:50:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 22 May 2001 00:50:10 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1520Ev-0006Wn-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 01:41:33 +0100 Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1520Et-0006Wc-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 01:41:32 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.98.85]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 21:39:57 -0300 Message-ID: <3B09EE9D.AD54EF6A@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 00:44:14 -0400 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re. Web Pages References: <000c01c0e222$91aa5ac0$d9b6883e@g3aqc> Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hi Laurie , did my E-MAIL about Jack es 136 kHz skeds get published on net? It was dated 5/21
   73 de John VE1ZJ

Laurie Mayhead wrote:

Sounds like a good idea Brian. I will be running tonight so intrested to see how my signal looks.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23273 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 18:26:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 21 May 2001 18:26:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 24228 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 18:26:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 21 May 2001 18:26:20 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151uIA-0003e5-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 19:20:30 +0100 Received: from mail12.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.193.215]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151uI9-0003e0-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 19:20:29 +0100 Received: from modem-217.eledhwen.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.182.217] helo=g3aqc) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 151uHa-0005cD-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 19:19:55 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c0e222$91aa5ac0$d9b6883e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. Web Pages Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 19:18:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Sounds like a good idea Brian. I will be running tonight so intrested to see how my signal looks. 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5112 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 17:53:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 21 May 2001 17:53:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 29287 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 17:53:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 21 May 2001 17:53:26 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151tla-0003Ot-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 18:46:50 +0100 Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.176] helo=protactinium) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151tlX-0003Oo-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 18:46:47 +0100 Received: from [62.7.7.120] (helo=default) by protactinium with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 151tky-0002us-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 18:46:12 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c0e21d$568416c0$7807073e@default> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: DX Cluster spots for 19/20th May at GB7DXM Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:36:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, not too bad a weekend for static after the past week. Also the local noise is down during the day if the neighbours are out in the garden, or down on the beach. My own heard list is as follows G3CCH, GW4ALG, G3BDQ, G8RW, F6CNI, F6BWO, All except for G3CCH on the speaker, John didn't seem as strong as I have heard him here before, but it didn't stop him having a qso with Steve. About two months worth of night-time logs of SXV (Marathon) signal strength have been lodged with Rik, who has offered to mount them on his web site. I am not offering any interpretations of what is happening....it all looks very confusing still. Therre are some day-time plots early in the sequence, but I find, when SXV is weak as it is here in summer day-times, that the local qrm over-rides the signal often, reducing the significance of the plot. Cluster spots follow:- 136.5 DL3FDO 20-May-2001 1701Z testing 136.5 DJ7RD 20-May-2001 1652Z cq 136.5 DF0WD 20-May-2001 1246Z in qso with pa3cpm 137.7 DF6NM 20-May-2001 1236Z cq in HELL 136.8 DK6NI 20-May-2001 1005Z cq nw on this qrg 136.5 DK6NI 20-May-2001 1002Z cq 136.7 DJ2EY 20-May-2001 0923Z cq 136.9 DL3FDO 20-May-2001 0921Z 136.5 DF0WD 20-May-2001 0859Z cq vy weak nw 136.7 DK6NI 20-May-2001 0858Z clg dj2ey 136.5 DJ7RD 20-May-2001 0831Z cq 136.5 DF0WD 20-May-2001 0821Z cq 136.6 DJ2EY 20-May-2001 0816Z cq 137.0 DF6NM 12-May-2001 1011Z in QSO F6BWO 136.6 F6CNI 5-May-2001 1142Z 419, (in QSO PA0SE, 529) in 136.5 F6FNI 5-May-2001 1118Z CQ CQ G3NYK de GB7MRS 21-May-2001 1323Z > Cheers de Alan G3NYK Alan.Melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28139 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 14:33:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 21 May 2001 14:33:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 17983 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 14:32:53 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 21 May 2001 14:32:53 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151qfL-0001qj-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 15:28:11 +0100 Received: from rhun.esoterica.pt ([195.22.0.26]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151qfF-0001qe-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 15:28:05 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from srv17slx.esoterica.pt (srv17slx.esoterica.pt [195.22.0.47]) by rhun.esoterica.pt (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4LERTG10593 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 15:27:29 +0100 (WEST) Received: from slave2 (por109.esoterica.pt [195.22.5.109]) by srv17slx.esoterica.pt (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA21058 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 15:27:28 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010521142738.0088b840@pop3.esoterica.pt> X-Sender: brian@pop3.esoterica.pt X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:27:38 +0000 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Brian Rogerson" Subject: LF: Web Pages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear All, Following the launch of two very powerful facilities in SpecLab namely: scheduled waterfall capture and scheduled export of Xcel compatible text files it is possible to automate a PC data logger to look at the band and to plot the peak amplitude of various signals in various bandwidths, the frequency of each of those peak amplitudes and the noise floor. I have implemented such a trial scheme to look at DCF39, CFH, 136KHz, the TA slot and SXV. The intention is that my web pages should be updated around 0700utc each morning. There is also a bonus, since Laurie G3AQC puts a very good signal into this location there is a slot at 135915 to 135927Hz which is automatically plotted, so if you want to try out your transmitter feel free, the period between points plotted is 90s so any transmission must exceed this several times to be useful. The URL for SpecLab is:http://www.qsl.net/dl4yhf/spectra1.html My sincere thanks to Wolf DL4YHF for all his help and patience. 73, Brian 73 Brian CT1DRP IN51QD 41 09 58N 08 39 11W http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~brian From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9131 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 13:41:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 21 May 2001 13:41:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 8716 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 13:40:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 21 May 2001 13:40:29 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151pqA-0001TZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:35:18 +0100 Received: from cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.195.174]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151pq6-0001TU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:35:14 +0100 Received: from modem-50.apanonar.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.117.50] helo=g3aqc) by cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 151ppX-0007v5-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:34:40 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c0e1fa$b7d77c00$3275883e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. Beacon Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:33:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hi all,
The sunspot no. seems fairly low,so I will try the beacon from 2300utc tonight.  73s Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18472 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 13:29:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 21 May 2001 13:29:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 5962 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 13:28:32 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 21 May 2001 13:28:32 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151pdZ-0001MM-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:22:17 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from dargolad.esoterica.pt ([195.22.0.27]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151pdX-0001MH-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:22:16 +0100 Received: from srv17slx.esoterica.pt (srv17slx.esoterica.pt [195.22.0.47]) by dargolad.esoterica.pt (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4LDLdv18759 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:21:39 +0100 (WEST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from slave2 (por234.esoterica.pt [195.22.5.234]) by srv17slx.esoterica.pt (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA02334 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:21:39 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010521132150.00859c20@pop3.esoterica.pt> X-Sender: brian@pop3.esoterica.pt X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:21:50 +0000 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Brian Rogerson" Subject: Re: LF: Wimborne meet In-reply-to: <3B08AEA4.30968A9F@alg.demon.co.uk> References: <004301c0ddf1$63a9c0a0$9d6e78d5@btopenworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: May I add my name to this request or even "Proceedings of the LF Forum" depending on the material existing already. With thanks in anticipation. 73, Brian At 06:59 21/05/01 +0100, you wrote: >Dave G3YXM wrote: >> >> Is anyone who is going, prepared to e-mail me a short report when they >> get home on Sunday evening? >Perhaps any such report could be posted to this Reflector too? > >Regards to all, >Steve GW4ALG 73 Brian CT1DRP IN51QD 41 09 58N 08 39 11W http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~brian From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24501 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 13:21:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 21 May 2001 13:21:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 269 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 13:20:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 21 May 2001 13:20:40 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151pUv-0001Fu-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:13:21 +0100 X-Priority: 3 Received: from bob.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151pUk-0001Fm-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:13:11 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: by bob.dera.gov.uk; (8.8.8/1.3/10May95) id OAA07656; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:16:50 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 16136 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 14:04:16 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk (172.16.9.10) by baton.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 21 May 2001 14:04:15 -0000 Received: by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk; id NAA13912; Mon, 21 May 2001 13:58:45 GMT Received: from unknown(10.71.64.31) by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk via smap (3.2) id xma013821; Mon, 21 May 01 13:58:27 GMT Received: from FRN-MAIL-3.dera.gov.uk (unverified) by mailguard.dera.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:18:44 +0100 Received: by frn-mail-3.dera.gov.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:10:33 +0100 Message-ID: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C04B9@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, "Holtby Linda C" Subject: LF: RE: Wimborne talk on Wolf Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:10:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Replying to Stuart's comments re Wolf signalling . This is quite a long EMail so if you have no interest in real radio comms engineering switch off now :-( > I was thinking some more about James' talk on Wolf yesterday, > and I have a few basic questions. > Wolf consists of a data encoding system layered over an > error recover system, layered over a bit synchronisation system > finally layered over bpsk. The upper layers woud work fine > over any transmission layer ie dfcw. Is BPSK actually the most > optimal bit transmission system? How is convolutional coding going to work with a fuzzy mode signalling waveform such as DFCW ?. By Fuzzy Mode, I mean it requires human intervention to decode the signal. If you mean Frequency Shift Keying, see below. In an environment where the distortion mechanism is purely additive noise and interference - such as seems to be the case at LF, with no significant multipath or coherent time delayed interference - BPSK will nearly always be the optimum solution for the signalling waveform. This is due to its bipolar nature ie +/-1 as compared with any orthogonal solution such as FSK where the descision is being made between 0/1 - ie there is a 3dB advantage immediately. Practical matters such as clock recovery and frequency error can make the descision less clear cut, but on a purely mathematical basis BPSK will always win in a noise + QRM only environment > Am I correct in thinking that BPSK is so good because you are > actually repeating the bit on every carrier cycle and integrating > the result? Integrating over multiple bits is nothing to do with it being BPSK - that technique could be used for any signalling waveform. The 16 times integration - if it is applied to a coherent waveform, ie. voltage summing, can give a 16^2 times improvement or 24dB in S/N which is the case for Wolf If the summing is incoherent, ie using Power (which is VERY unlikely to be the case for any BPSK demodulator, but would be the case for incoherent wqveforms such as FSK) the improvement would only be 16 times, ie 12dB. > I was also thinking that you could send wolf on the divide down > CW transmitters that some folks use. By injecting the audio > tone from a PC into a 13.6MHz transciever operating SSB and > then dividing down by 100 you should generate an equivelent > signal to the linear translation approach save for the envelope To generate a 180 degree phase shift by dividing down cannot be done. Phase shift scales with division ratio, and if dividing by 100, this would require 180 * 100 = 18000 degrees phase shift at the fundamental. This, of course, is a multiple of 360 degrees so would not give any phase shift at all. To generate the shift would still require a separate modulator. The converse is also true of course. To generate 180 deg on a mutiplied signal requires a lower shift at the fundemental. eg to generate BPSK at 1296MHz would require just a 0 / 15 degree phase shift to be applied to a 108MHz drive signal. This is the reason why old style VHF FM transmitters (before synthesizers were in use) always started with a low frequency crystal and multiplied up. The phase shift - and hence FM - could be generated in a simple circuit and increased by multiplication. It would probably work if you used an odd division ratio though. > shaping. However by keying the carrier off-on during the transition > the normal CW wave shaping should clean up the signal. > Does this work? Note that the error in the carrier will be the > dominant term, and not the error in the the modulation, which may > have some advantages. > As we tried to say at the meeting, it is NOT just a case of switching the carrier off at the phase transition point then back on. The amplitude has to be slowly ramped down, the phase switched, then the amplitude ramped back up again. The width of the sidebands is directly related to the speed of this ramp. Therefore, a ramp of 1ms from full carrier to zero would result in sidebands 1/(2.pi * 1ms) Hz wide - approx 160 Hz at some defined level. A 2ms ramp 80 Hz at this same level and pro-rata. The shape of the ramp dictates how fast the higher order sidebands roll off. A linear ramp is poor, the high order sidebands ones roll off slowly, whatever their initial level may be. However, a ramp based on the shape of half a sinewave (the so-call raised cosine shape) gives ones of the best roll offs of all. I suggest you fully read the article on PSK31 By G3PLX that appeared in RadCom a few years ago. PSK31 is the ultimate case of waveform shaping where the complete bit interval is a half sine wave and a 0/1 repeat cycle gives two single tones separated by half the baud rate - and nothing else. But in any PSK mode, there will always be a trade off of bandwidth vs. signalling efficiency. PSK31 throws away several dB of Signal / Noise performance to achieve a very narrow bandwidth. The VE2IQ system on the other hand works best if no shaping at all is employed. Where waveform shaping is used, any system works best at optimum Signal / Noise when the receiver is exactly matched to the transmitted waveform - a so called matched filter technique - even if this means the Rx appears to take in the signal over a very wide bandwidth. It is collecting as much of the signal as it can and processing this correctly to give the best Signal to Noise ratio possible - Whatever the bandwidth of the signal may end up as. It could well be that the energy of a signal keyed at 1Hz is spread over 1MHz bandwidth for very sharp BPSK. BUT if the receiver takes in every 1Hz whisker over this entire bandidth it will give better decoding and optimise S/N than if the signal were filtered to 1 or 2Hz bandwidth before demodulation. For data communications you need always to take a holistic approach and not just consider bandwidth, filtering, modulation type data rate etc. as separate entities. All are closely related and it may be necessary to separate out or sacrifice one parameter for the sake of optimising other factors such as bandwidth, resistance to interference etc. For example, at HF the dominant interference is often not noise but multipath. Here parameters such as data rate need to be optimised to counter the several milliseconds of multipath, and often the best HF waeforms are those that take up a whole 3kHz bandwidth and are subsequently reduced by coding and repetition to allow data rates that can be a slow as 70 Bits / s. Needless to say these are not favoured by radio Amateurs - but can often be heard all over HF these days sounding a bit like a diesel engine chuntering away. The repetition rate is the repeat length needed to test and measure the multipath and repeat data if necessary. Whew.........! Andy G4JNT > -- The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s). For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is prohibited and may be unlawful. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6420 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 13:01:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 21 May 2001 13:01:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 15631 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 13:00:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 21 May 2001 13:00:37 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151pCA-00016v-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 13:53:58 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151pBq-00016q-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 13:53:39 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 151pBI-0005gd-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 13:53:04 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from [147.197.130.252] (helo=mj9ar) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 151pBH-0005GQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 13:53:03 +0100 From: "James Moritz" Organization: University of Hertfordshire To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:53:47 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: LF: Wimborne talk on Wolf In-reply-to: <3B08FCDC.484F74DF@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Message-ID: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Stewart, LF group, Nice to see everyone again at Wimbourne yesterday. Hope everyone had a good trip home. In response to Stewart's points, As far as I know, BPSK is good because you can use, indeed have to use, a coherent detection scheme. If you were using an FSK modulation scheme, presumably you would have to find a way of making the two tones have a fixed phase relationship to some reference to achieve similar advantage. Generating BPSK at 13.6MHz and dividing it down to 136k would also divide down the phase modulation from 180degrees to 1.8degrees, which I don't think would do much for the demodulated SNR. Using the normal CW keying shaping to amplitude modulate the BPSK transitions would result in a BPSK signal with roughly the same bandwidth as the CW signal. However, the amplitude keying transitions for CW are normally much faster (5 -10ms) than those I am using for BPSK (=1 bit period = 100ms), otherwise the CW keying sounds excessively "soft" for aural reception. Looking at typical CW spectra on the air, they usually have a bandwidth of around 1-200Hz, wheras my current BPSK signal has about 20Hz BW. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14896 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 12:51:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 21 May 2001 12:51:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 10076 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 12:50:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 21 May 2001 12:50:29 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151p1x-00010Y-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 13:43:25 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from jaws.cisco.com ([198.135.0.150] helo=cisco.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151p1s-00010T-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 13:43:20 +0100 Received: from virgin.net (lon-sto4-lan-vlan132-dhcp21.cisco.com [144.254.108.24]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA06755 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 13:42:13 +0100 (BST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3B090CF7.A47462CC@virgin.net> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:41:27 +0100 From: "Stewart Bryant" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Wimborne talk on Wolf References: <3B08FCDC.484F74DF@virgin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Thinking some more about this over lunch, I had clearly forgotten that in reducing the frequency by a factor of 10 you also reduce the phase shift by 10. You therefore have to multiply the phase shift by 10 first, presumably by extending the transition modulation cycle by 5. I think that this then makes the output invarient with respect to the relative phase of the counter and the carrier. It then occured to me that rather than amplitude modulating the carrier to reduce the sidbands associated with the phase transition, that you could reduce the rate of change of phase and acheive the same effect at constant amplitude. Is that correct? 73 Stewart G3YSX Stewart Bryant wrote: > I was thinking some more about Jame's talk on Wolf yesterday, > and I have a few basic questions. > > Wolf consists of a data encoding system layered over an > error recover system, layered over a bit synchronisation system > finally layered over bpsk. The upper layers woud work fine > over any transmission layer ie dfcw. Is BPSK actually the most > optimal bit transmission system? > > Am I correct in thinking that BPSK is so good because you are > actually repeating the bit on every carrier cycle and integrating > the result? > > I was also thinking that you could send wolf on the divide down > CW transmitters that some folks use. By injecting the audio > tone from a PC into a 13.6MHz transciever operating SSB and > then dividing down by 100 you should generate an equivelent > signal to the linear translation approach save for the envelope > shaping. However by keying the carrier off-on during the transition > the normal CW wave shaping should clean up the signal. > Does this work? Note that the error in the carrier will be the > dominant term, and not the error in the the modulation, which may > have some advantages. > > Stewart G3YSX From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24133 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 11:42:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 21 May 2001 11:42:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 2049 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 11:41:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 21 May 2001 11:41:40 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151nxU-0000Wj-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 12:34:44 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from jaws.cisco.com ([198.135.0.150] helo=cisco.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151nxP-0000Wd-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 12:34:40 +0100 Received: from virgin.net (lon-sto4-lan-vlan132-dhcp21.cisco.com [144.254.108.24]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA03328 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 12:33:31 +0100 (BST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3B08FCDC.484F74DF@virgin.net> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:32:44 +0100 From: "Stewart Bryant" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Wimborne talk on Wolf References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I was thinking some more about Jame's talk on Wolf yesterday, and I have a few basic questions. Wolf consists of a data encoding system layered over an error recover system, layered over a bit synchronisation system finally layered over bpsk. The upper layers woud work fine over any transmission layer ie dfcw. Is BPSK actually the most optimal bit transmission system? Am I correct in thinking that BPSK is so good because you are actually repeating the bit on every carrier cycle and integrating the result? I was also thinking that you could send wolf on the divide down CW transmitters that some folks use. By injecting the audio tone from a PC into a 13.6MHz transciever operating SSB and then dividing down by 100 you should generate an equivelent signal to the linear translation approach save for the envelope shaping. However by keying the carrier off-on during the transition the normal CW wave shaping should clean up the signal. Does this work? Note that the error in the carrier will be the dominant term, and not the error in the the modulation, which may have some advantages. Stewart G3YSX From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18354 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 06:26:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 21 May 2001 06:26:40 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: (qmail 26174 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 06:26:07 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 21 May 2001 06:26:07 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151j49-0006ea-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 07:21:17 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.88]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151j48-0006eU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 07:21:16 +0100 Received: from telemetry.demon.co.uk ([194.222.19.114]) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 151j3a-0002Oz-0U for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 07:20:43 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 07:19:52 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Tom Boucher" Subject: LF: LF Forum MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Trial Version 3.05 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Thanks to those who arranged the LF Forum at Wimborne yesterday. Jim and Andy gave most interesting talks and another gentleman gave a fascinating demo of a Tesla Coil. I counted 14 attendees - G4JNT, M0BMU, G3LDO + XYL, G3AQC, G3HEJ, G3GRO, G3YSX, G3XDV, one unidentified, another from the host FR club and GW3JBH who happened by from the caravan site next door! 73, Tom G3OLB From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22060 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 06:00:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 21 May 2001 06:00:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 17988 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 06:00:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 21 May 2001 06:00:26 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151ies-0006P3-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 06:55:10 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.39]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151ier-0006Oy-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 06:55:09 +0100 Received: from alg.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.80]) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 151ieJ-0000c7-0B for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 05:54:35 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3B08AEA4.30968A9F@alg.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 06:59:00 +0100 From: "Steve Rawlings" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Wimborne meet References: <004301c0ddf1$63a9c0a0$9d6e78d5@btopenworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dave G3YXM wrote: > > Is anyone who is going, prepared to e-mail me a short report when they > get home on Sunday evening? Perhaps any such report could be posted to this Reflector too? Regards to all, Steve GW4ALG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27758 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 02:35:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 21 May 2001 02:35:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 15422 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 02:34:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 21 May 2001 02:34:25 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151fR5-0004r6-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 03:28:43 +0100 Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151fR4-0004r1-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 03:28:43 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.6.48]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 23:27:27 -0300 Message-ID: <3B08B64C.4681F66A@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 02:31:40 -0400 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: VE1ZZ es ARGO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all , Jack VE1ZZ now has computer es ARGO He has been listening . He has no e-mail. If you want to try skeds I can help. I would suggest he transmits for 15 min on hour es half hour. Eu should call him during the two other 15 minute periods. Jack can only do 3 sec dots but he probably receive 10 sec dots OK. He has moved his frequencey I'll send new freq tomorrow. Last few times I saw Laurie earlier this month , he faded out between 0130Z and 0200Z If anyone is interested in sked let me know by E-mail 73 de John VE1ZJ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27623 invoked from network); 20 May 2001 21:18:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2001 21:18:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 5658 invoked from network); 20 May 2001 21:17:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 20 May 2001 21:17:50 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151aU8-0002V4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 20 May 2001 22:11:32 +0100 Received: from neptune.imagenisp.com ([204.244.138.19]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151aU7-0002Uz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 20 May 2001 22:11:31 +0100 Received: from jsm (gi82.imagenisp.com [204.244.17.109]) by neptune.imagenisp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id LGRLAA3L; Sun, 20 May 2001 14:10:54 -0700 Message-ID: <001501c0e171$b06a89a0$6d11f4cc@jsm> From: "Steve McDonald" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <001301c0e130$d15ebaa0$6d11f4cc@jsm> <004001c0e16b$18b77380$55b51bca@xtr743187> Subject: LF: Re: Re: VA3LK to VE7 path still holding! Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 14:13:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Yes I was surprised by the strength of his signal. It would be fun to try some two-way tests now that I know I can hear Larry OK...problem is that I would need to apply for a temporary permit (not sure what my chances of getting approval would be) or wait until they give us a band! VE7SL / Steve > Steve, > > > The 3500 km path is still in good shape as of last night. Condx a little > > better than my last receive attempt but nowhere as good as they will be in > > the fall! > > I was impressed by your Argo screen showing the received signals very near > 599. > > 73, Bob > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2522 invoked from network); 20 May 2001 20:29:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2001 20:29:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 14226 invoked from network); 20 May 2001 20:29:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 20 May 2001 20:29:16 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151Zl2-000285-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 20 May 2001 21:24:56 +0100 Received: from mta6-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.19]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151Zl1-000280-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 20 May 2001 21:24:55 +0100 Received: from xtr743187 ([202.27.181.85]) by mta6-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20010520202406.FCB677.mta6-rme.xtra.co.nz@xtr743187> for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 08:24:06 +1200 Message-ID: <004001c0e16b$18b77380$55b51bca@xtr743187> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <001301c0e130$d15ebaa0$6d11f4cc@jsm> Subject: LF: Re: VA3LK to VE7 path still holding! Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 07:32:35 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Steve, > The 3500 km path is still in good shape as of last night. Condx a little > better than my last receive attempt but nowhere as good as they will be in > the fall! I was impressed by your Argo screen showing the received signals very near 599. 73, Bob From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3636 invoked from network); 20 May 2001 13:39:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2001 13:39:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 7824 invoked from network); 20 May 2001 13:39:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 20 May 2001 13:39:18 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151TEo-0007cn-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 20 May 2001 14:27:14 +0100 Received: from neptune.imagenisp.com ([204.244.138.19]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151TEm-0007ci-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 20 May 2001 14:27:12 +0100 Received: from jsm (gi82.imagenisp.com [204.244.17.109]) by neptune.imagenisp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id LGRK0648; Sun, 20 May 2001 06:26:31 -0700 Message-ID: <001301c0e130$d15ebaa0$6d11f4cc@jsm> From: "Steve McDonald" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: VA3LK to VE7 path still holding! Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 06:28:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040703070607020508050603" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040703070607020508050603 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The 3500 km path is still in good shape as of last night. Condx a little better than my last receive attempt but nowhere as good as they will be in the fall! 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rgkRLg44pR3YFdCfm57U6DllzzS+0gQs5PnEZ4pgADHiql8QMnUDy84GajcDHQVMhdSrn5z9 anYnAGeKmBTHbV8ljtGfXFMblcnk4oYgUn7P1piM2fvH86IARsSZOSasxAbRxSW4DrviJccV DB1NC3AuWwBdsgdaq3H+uf6mtAI05UZ5qwv+rb61C3AkSaW22TwSPFNHPGySIxVlIZSCCOQc 817J8BdV1HxHb+I4Ncv7rVIdluvl30zTrtYShhhyRg4GfXFeTjv4htT2MPQNU1C6+BHiDXbi /uptYt7+NIdQkmZriNQ0YAWQncBiWUcHpI/9452Nanlih+FUccromsRwpqaqxAvlZoGYTf8A PQEyykhs5Mj/AN454iyf4larqNn8PbXUrW/uoL9dfvLZbqKZllEXnXH7sODnb+7j+XOPkX0F e0wQQ2tvHb28SQwRIEjjjUKqKBgAAcAAcYoA/9kA --------------040703070607020508050603-- From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19229 invoked from network); 20 May 2001 10:17:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 20 May 2001 10:17:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 7444 invoked from network); 20 May 2001 10:16:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 20 May 2001 10:16:57 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151Q3U-0006A5-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 20 May 2001 11:03:20 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mailout01.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.80]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151Q3T-0006A0-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 20 May 2001 11:03:19 +0100 Received: from fwd06.sul.t-online.de by mailout01.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 151Q3I-00074d-05; Sun, 20 May 2001 12:03:08 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from (0482183881-0001@[62.157.30.176]) by fwd06.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 151Q3L-1A98ZkC; Sun, 20 May 2001 12:03:11 +0200 From: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C0491@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> <3AFA2E4C.EBB3C4EF@alg.demon.co.uk> <3.0.1.16.20010510132736.2c87c87a@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> <14z2iT-1sJxh2C@fwd00.sul.t-online.com> <151DNz-1fzVjMC@fwd02.sul.t-online.com> Subject: LF: error X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 12:03:11 +0200 Message-ID: <151Q3L-1A98ZkC@fwd06.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0482183881-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, my last email sent by mistake sri Uwe/dj8wx From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14980 invoked from network); 19 May 2001 20:37:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2001 20:37:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 27646 invoked from network); 19 May 2001 20:36:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 19 May 2001 20:36:36 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151DOC-0000Ll-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 19 May 2001 21:31:52 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mailout01.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.80]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 151DOB-0000Lg-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 19 May 2001 21:31:51 +0100 Received: from fwd02.sul.t-online.de by mailout01.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 151DNw-00042x-05; Sat, 19 May 2001 22:31:36 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from (0482183881-0001@[62.227.109.43]) by fwd02.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 151DNz-1fzVjMC; Sat, 19 May 2001 22:31:39 +0200 From: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C0491@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> <3AFA2E4C.EBB3C4EF@alg.demon.co.uk> <3.0.1.16.20010510132736.2c87c87a@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> <14z2iT-1sJxh2C@fwd00.sul.t-online.com> Subject: Re: LF: beacon df6nm/g3aqc X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 22:31:39 +0200 Message-ID: <151DNz-1fzVjMC@fwd02.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0482183881-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: jannsen schrieb: > Hi Markus, hi Laurie es all, > captured G3AQC es DF6NM agn using SecLab1.65. > pic detached. > regards > Uwe/dj8wx > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11303 invoked from network); 19 May 2001 09:39:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 19 May 2001 09:39:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 13619 invoked from network); 19 May 2001 09:39:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 19 May 2001 09:39:04 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 15126v-0003lR-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 19 May 2001 09:29:17 +0100 Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.176] helo=protactinium) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 15126u-0003lM-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 19 May 2001 09:29:16 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from [213.122.108.215] (helo=unknown) by protactinium with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 15126M-000791-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 19 May 2001 09:28:42 +0100 From: "Nick" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: QRM Source Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 09:26:57 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi If any of you live near traffic lights and suffer a pulsing type noise then it is a bus priority system that operates around 134kHz with a pulsed transmission interrogating passive tags on the busses. Nick From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19465 invoked from network); 18 May 2001 14:39:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 18 May 2001 14:39:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 25531 invoked from network); 18 May 2001 14:38:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 18 May 2001 14:38:26 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150lJe-0004UF-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 18 May 2001 15:33:18 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from [213.2.16.106] (helo=rsgb.org.uk) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150lJa-0004U9-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 18 May 2001 15:33:14 +0100 Received: from miked by rsgb.org.uk with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v4.0.0.R) for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 15:28:40 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Mike Dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:28:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: LF: Wimborne Meeting Message-ID: <3B053FA6.15090.FFE257@localhost> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-Return-Path: miked@mail X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: For those slightly confused by the revised travel instructions, try entering Andy's coordinates (Landranger SZ014982) into http://www.streetmap.co.uk, and you will get a most useful map showing the route from the A31 to the club house which is marked with an arrow. See you there. Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19279 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 22:21:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2001 22:21:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 28223 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 22:21:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 17 May 2001 22:21:15 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150W4w-0005fw-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 23:17:06 +0100 Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.111]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150W4t-0005fr-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 23:17:03 +0100 Received: from [213.122.252.99] (helo=default) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 150W4L-0004fk-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 23:16:30 +0100 Message-ID: <000301c0df1e$6f4241c0$63fc7ad5@default> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: re LUF Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 17:28:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Peter, as far as I understand it, the LUF is a function of the absorption in the D-layer and the noise level at the receive site. It is all complicated by the fact that the level of absorption is frequency dependent even in quiet periods. The prediction programs regard the LUF as a function of the ionising radiation reaching the D (and possibly E ) layer, so it is highest at local noon, and will change with the solar cycle. This is all complicated at LF and VLF because the absorption increase as the frquency increases. There is a parameter called the gyro frequency (a rotational frequency dependent on the energy of the ionospheric electrons and the earths magnetic field) which may determine the level of the LUF (My reading in this area is a little sparce and I only just starting to try to understand this factor). In periods of intense ionisation, we get 'reflection' rather than absorption, at LF and VLF, at the D-layer boundary and we see CFH, for instance, a few hours either side of 1200z. I believe the 2MHz lowering for a 10dB increase in power is just a figure that comes from the received noise densities at various frequencies. It effectivey says "some of your power is going to heat up the ionosphere so you will need more to reach your target range". I think a parameter is measured by the sounders from which LUF can be inferred. Geomagnetic disturbances upset this of course. We know how the LF bands (really should be called MF bands now 160-80-40m) often 'go out' at the time of an aurora. There is a little data in the "New Shortwave Propagation Handbook" published by CQ Communications (available from the RSGB bookstall ....plug over) But like all amateur publications there seems to be little said about frequencies below 2MHz. Cheers de Alan G3NYK Alan.Melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28172 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 20:44:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2001 20:44:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 8616 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 20:43:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 17 May 2001 20:43:44 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150UWJ-0004tq-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 21:37:15 +0100 Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.13]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150UW7-0004rl-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 21:37:03 +0100 Received: from xtr743187 ([202.27.181.31]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20010517203530.JVRO3646237.mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz@xtr743187> for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 08:35:30 +1200 Message-ID: <003e01c0df11$39e01a00$1fb51bca@xtr743187> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C04AB@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> Subject: LF: Re: RE: LF Prop. Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 08:09:01 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, Andy's information is also my recollection of the meaning of LUF: > Seem to remember reading that LUF is a calculation based on D layer > absorbtion. Propagation predictions software giving LUF uses sunspot > number / solar flux and time plus lat / long, but unlike MUF, also needs > transmitter and antenna properties in order to calculate signal strength > > LUF is the lowest frequency that will propagate over the skywave path(s) > that is subject to the D layer absorbtion, whereas MUF is a geometrical > consideration only, so doesn't need power and antenna details. For F layer one hop geometry, a ray is subject to two doses of absorption from the D layer. Absorption increases with decreasing frequency, which can be considered as a path loss matter, and is not a sharp cut-off mechanism. Path loss can to some extent be compensated for by increasing transmitter power and antenna gain. Even for really high radiated power, there is a point where only a one hop path is useable (there is twice the loss in dB for two hop geometry), and even a one hop path can have too much loss for a low powered system. The practical impact is that D layer absorption greatly attenuates skywaves on lower frequency bands during hours of daylight (the sun being the stimulus of D layer ionisation). Best DX is at night-time. 73, Bob From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29046 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 17:23:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2001 17:23:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 22356 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 17:23:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 17 May 2001 17:23:05 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150RPB-0003OB-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 18:17:41 +0100 Received: from smtp.wanadoo.nl ([194.134.193.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150RP7-0003O6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 18:17:37 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from default (p1001.vcu.wanadoo.nl [194.134.202.238]) by smtp.wanadoo.nl (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id f4HHH2q09291 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 19:17:02 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <200105171717.f4HHH2q09291@smtp.wanadoo.nl> Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 19:16:53 +0100 From: "Ko Versteeg" To: "LF RSGB" Subject: LF: Fw: Hello from LU8YD X-Mailer: FoxMail 2.1 [en] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smtp.wanadoo.nl id f4HHH2q09291 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: From: aalvarez@cpsarg.com To: nl9222@amsat.org Subject: Hello from LU8YD Hello OM, i write from Argentina. I am very interested in VLF, LF and MF bands, I work RX/TX in 1.8 Mhz and only RX below 1700 Khz because there are not bands for amateur experimentation at this dade in this region. but... I am Dxing NDB4s and other utilities, i am looking any VLF/LF/MF propagation prediction program and noise prediction program, but i can get any in the web, can you help me? I hope to have any tx VLF/LF bands in the near future. regards Alex LU8YD .. Ideas anyone, still need LU here ;-) 73 de Ko, NL9222 From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19962 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 15:03:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2001 15:03:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 20513 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 15:03:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 17 May 2001 15:03:15 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150PAr-0002Ge-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 15:54:45 +0100 Received: from rubellite.lion-access.net ([212.19.217.4]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150PAq-0002GZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 15:54:44 +0100 Received: from w8k3f0 (DeepSpace9.StarTrek.dialup.freeler.nl [212.26.216.59]) by rubellite.lion-access.net (I-Lab) with SMTP id 1020A311F for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 14:52:02 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <001401c0dee1$6f71a2e0$3bd81ad4@w8k3f0> From: "Dick Rollema" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3.0.1.16.20010517141818.2e6f90ba@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> Subject: Re: LF: Re: The case of the missing amps Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:54:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: To All from PA0SE Bob, ZL2CA and Rik, ON7YD wrote: > >Thanks to Dick PA0SE for doing further tests. Replacing the antenna with >>an increased capacitance from a vacuum variable has lower losses than the >> "antenna circuit" but it is a reasonable approximation for gathering measured >>data. > What about replacing the antenna by a capacitor in series with a resistor, > would't that be a better simulation ? > > For low power tests (as Dick did) a short piece of coax can be used as low > loss capacitor. Most 50 Ohm coax is 101pF/m, so a 1 to 3 meter length will > be sufficient. The coax cal be rolled up to get things compact, an > alternative is a number of short pieces in parallel. Cheap and flexible > coax such as RG174 will withstand up to 1.5kV (according to specifications > that tend to be rather conservative), RG58 even up to 2.5kV. > For those interested in high power testing : RG8 and RG213 are specified at > 5kV, RG218 at 11kV. I don't see what advantage this would bring. In test B (without aerial) I saw to it that the voltage over the coil (50V) was the same as with the aerial. So from the coil's point of view the situation was identical with and without aerial. As the voltage over the coil was the same so must be the current in the coil and the losses that occur as a result of that current. The purpose of test B was to isolate a possible current that escapes from the coil to the surrounding and I think I managed to do that. The current passed by the vacuum capacitor is a pure capacitive one. But for all practical purposes that is also the case for the current in the real aerial . Please remember that my measurements were not precision ones but they were good enough I think to draw the conclusion I mentioned and which is now also supported by Bob. 73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7009 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 13:22:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2001 13:22:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 4668 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 13:22:18 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 17 May 2001 13:22:18 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150NfG-0001U7-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 14:18:02 +0100 Received: from mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150NfC-0001U2-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 14:17:58 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id PAA1059472 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 15:17:24 +0200 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20010517141818.2e6f90ba@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> X-Sender: pb623250@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 14:18:18 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: Re: LF: Re: The case of the missing amps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >Thanks to Dick PA0SE for doing further tests. Replacing the antenna with a >increased capacitance from a vacuum variable has lower losses than the "antenna >circuit" but it is a reasonable approximation for gathering measured data. What about replacing the antenna by a capacitor in series with a resistor, would't that be a better simulation ? For low power tests (as Dick did) a short piece of coax can be used as low loss capacitor. Most 50 Ohm coax is 101pF/m, so a 1 to 3 meter length will be sufficient. The coax cal be rolled up to get things compact, an alternative is a number of short pieces in parallel. Cheap and flexible coax such as RG174 will withstand up to 1.5kV (according to specifications that tend to be rather conservative), RG58 even up to 2.5kV. For those interested in high power testing : RG8 and RG213 are specified at 5kV, RG218 at 11kV. 73, Rik ON7YD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24962 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 12:25:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2001 12:25:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 26369 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 12:24:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 17 May 2001 12:24:57 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150Mkh-000126-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:19:35 +0100 X-Priority: 3 Received: from bob.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150MkI-00011x-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:19:19 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: by bob.dera.gov.uk; (8.8.8/1.3/10May95) id NAA23364; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:22:40 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 28628 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 13:10:41 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk (172.16.9.10) by baton.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 17 May 2001 13:10:40 -0000 Received: by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk; id NAA07873; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:05:29 GMT Received: from unknown(10.71.64.31) by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk via smap (3.2) id xma007844; Thu, 17 May 01 13:05:22 GMT Received: from FRN-MAIL-3.dera.gov.uk (unverified) by mailguard.dera.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:25:02 +0100 Received: by frn-mail-3.dera.gov.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:16:52 +0100 Message-ID: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C04AB@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: LF Prop. Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:17:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Seem to remember reading that LUF is a calculation based on D layer absorbtion. Propagation predictions software giving LUF uses sunspot number / solar flux and time plus lat / long, but unlike MUF, also needs transmitter and antenna properties in order to calculate signal strength LUF is the lowest frequency that will propagate over the skywave path(s) that is subject to the D layer absorbtion, whereas MUF is a geometrical consideration only, so doesn't need power and antenna details. Andy G4JNT > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Dennison [mailto:mike.dennison@rsgb.org.uk] > Sent: 2001-05-17 12:07 > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Subject: Re: LF: Re: LF Prop. > > > G3LDO wrote: > > There is this thing called LUF (Lowest Usable Frequency). > Not much in ham > > literature about it but from Bill Orr's Radio Handbook it depends on > > transmitter erp and atmospheric noise. Generally speaking > the LUF can be > > lowered (at HF) by approximately 2MHz for each 10dB increase in erp. > > However it is obvious that the LUF changes throughout the > day. Does it > > follow the MUF? If it does then it will follow the sunspot cycle. > > Are there any average graphs of LUF? > > My understanding is that LUF and MUF are purely F-layer > functions, so are > not relevant to us if you accept Alan's assumption that > sky-wave propagation > is by D-layer with perhaps some E-layer. Also, is the MUF > really measured? It > will change for every path, and for prediction purposes is > usually calculated > from the Critical Frequency (ie the point at which the > signals go straight > through the ionosphere). Perhaps LUF is also just a calculation. > > > > Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) > http://www.lf.thersgb.net > > -- The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s). For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is prohibited and may be unlawful. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4709 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 11:24:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2001 11:24:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 19132 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 11:23:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 17 May 2001 11:23:25 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150Lme-0000ak-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 12:17:32 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from [213.2.16.106] (helo=rsgb.org.uk) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150Lma-0000af-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 12:17:28 +0100 Received: from miked by rsgb.org.uk with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v4.0.0.R) for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 12:06:39 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Mike Dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 12:06:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: LF: Re: LF Prop. Message-ID: <3B03BECC.20798.9BB358@localhost> In-reply-to: <000201c0deb5$c2989400$ebca28c3@ericadodd> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-Return-Path: miked@mail X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: G3LDO wrote: > There is this thing called LUF (Lowest Usable Frequency). Not much in ham > literature about it but from Bill Orr's Radio Handbook it depends on > transmitter erp and atmospheric noise. Generally speaking the LUF can be > lowered (at HF) by approximately 2MHz for each 10dB increase in erp. > However it is obvious that the LUF changes throughout the day. Does it > follow the MUF? If it does then it will follow the sunspot cycle. > Are there any average graphs of LUF? My understanding is that LUF and MUF are purely F-layer functions, so are not relevant to us if you accept Alan's assumption that sky-wave propagation is by D-layer with perhaps some E-layer. Also, is the MUF really measured? It will change for every path, and for prediction purposes is usually calculated from the Critical Frequency (ie the point at which the signals go straight through the ionosphere). Perhaps LUF is also just a calculation. Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19440 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 09:47:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2001 09:47:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 3451 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 09:47:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 17 May 2001 09:47:20 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150KGG-0008Of-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:40:00 +0100 Received: from latimer.mail.uk.easynet.net ([195.40.1.40]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150KGF-0008Oa-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:39:59 +0100 Received: from ericadodd (tnt-3-235.easynet.co.uk [195.40.202.235]) by latimer.mail.uk.easynet.net (Postfix) with SMTP id CB64053F7B for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:39:25 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <000201c0deb5$c2989400$ebca28c3@ericadodd> From: "g3ldo" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3.0.1.16.20010516103336.2b5f0e90@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> <5.0.2.1.2.20010516221555.00a07cc0@mail.pncl.co.uk> Subject: LF: Re: LF Prop. Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:51:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Walter G3JKV said:. > FWIW, we had most problems with Decca skywave interference at sunspot minimum. There is this thing called LUF (Lowest Usable Frequency). Not much in ham literature about it but from Bill Orr's Radio Handbook it depends on transmitter erp and atmospheric noise. Generally speaking the LUF can be lowered (at HF) by approximately 2MHz for each 10dB increase in erp. However it is obvious that the LUF changes throughout the day. Does it follow the MUF? If it does then it will follow the sunspot cycle. Are there any average graphs of LUF? I understand that most data available is for commercial link reliability and ignores the esoteric magnetic effects that we have been using on LF. Regards, Peter, G3LDO e-mail Web From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6175 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 09:22:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 17 May 2001 09:22:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 16388 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 09:21:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 17 May 2001 09:21:56 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150Jpl-00086P-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:12:37 +0100 X-Priority: 3 Received: from bob.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 150Jpb-00086J-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:12:27 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: by bob.dera.gov.uk; (8.8.8/1.3/10May95) id KAA19570; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:15:59 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 30704 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 10:04:30 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk (172.16.9.10) by baton.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 17 May 2001 10:04:30 -0000 Received: by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk; id JAA26744; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:59:21 GMT Received: from unknown(10.71.64.31) by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk via smap (3.2) id xma026710; Thu, 17 May 01 09:59:05 GMT Received: from FRN-MAIL-3.dera.gov.uk (unverified) by mailguard.dera.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:18:44 +0100 Received: by frn-mail-3.dera.gov.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:10:36 +0100 Message-ID: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C04A5@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: "LF Group \(E-mail\)" Subject: LF: FW: LF Forum Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 10:10:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: A tesla coil eh....... That's a really high voltage Andy 'JNT -----Original Message----- From: jfell@crydom.com [mailto:jfell@crydom.com] Sent: 2001-05-17 10:59 To: Talbot Andrew Subject: RE: LF Forum I have now secured the keys to the Clubhouse and alarm for Sunday. I will bring along some Tea/Coffee/Milk. I also bumped into Chuck Hobson last night and invited him along during the morning session as he has one of his 100kHz based Tesla coil systems already at the club - thought this might provide a bit of technical related interest /identification of some of the closer QRN sources! Let me know what time you intend to arrive - Curly(the Club Chairman) should be working in the data shack from approx. 0900 BST so maybe I can have a lie in . The bar should be open over the lunchtime but meals are only available by pre-booking in advance so probably best to advise people to make their own arrangements elsewhere. 73 -- The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s). For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is prohibited and may be unlawful. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23130 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 22:04:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2001 22:04:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 16514 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 22:04:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 16 May 2001 22:04:11 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1509JP-0003Is-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 22:58:31 +0100 Received: from mta6-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.19]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1509JO-0003Ig-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 22:58:31 +0100 Received: from xtr743187 ([202.27.178.24]) by mta6-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20010516215716.SVKM2483790.mta6-rme.xtra.co.nz@xtr743187> for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:57:16 +1200 Message-ID: <001601c0de53$748810e0$18b21bca@xtr743187> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: LF: Re: Sunspot Cycle & LF Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:27:23 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Jim and others, > The graphs in Terman show only a modest 3-4 dB variation in > signal level over the sunspot cycle - but what they don't show is > what the signal-to-noise ratio was. The high noise level on LF is > one of the major factors deciding if communications can take place > or not. If a lot of the background noise on the band is from distant > electrical storms, one would expect the noise level to be subject to > the same propagation effects as the signals are. It could go either > way I suppose, so I await the solar minimum with interest. > > Cheers, Jim Moritz As an anecdotal comment, in ZL, when we started on LF in the early 1990s, the DX propagation seemed to be better than it is now. We were doing quite well for DX, and first-built transmitters were generally lower power than are used nowadays. I've also had a look at ITU-R propagation graphs, but they are confusing to interpret as they are normalised. As somebody else commented on, the thrust of some ITU-R work is to determine reliable ground wave coverage for LF and MF broadcast stations, and the likes of sporadic transcontinental DX is not in their terms of reference for results. My opinion is that LF DX is statistically better around a sunspot minimum, late at night, in winter. 73, Bob From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23051 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 22:04:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2001 22:04:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 16445 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 22:04:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 16 May 2001 22:04:07 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1509J5-0003Im-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 22:58:11 +0100 Received: from mta6-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.19]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1509J1-0003Ih-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 22:58:07 +0100 Received: from xtr743187 ([202.27.178.24]) by mta6-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20010516215721.SVLN2483790.mta6-rme.xtra.co.nz@xtr743187> for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:57:21 +1200 Message-ID: <001701c0de53$77c49e40$18b21bca@xtr743187> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <002301c0dd30$5e8f6b40$dea274d5@w8k3f0> Subject: LF: Re: The case of the missing amps Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:58:07 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
To all,
 
Thanks to Dick PA0SE for doing further tests.  Replacing the antenna with a increased capacitance from a vacuum variable has lower losses than the "antenna circuit" but it is a reasonable approximation for gathering measured data.
 
My earlier bulletins assumed that the current going in to the cold end of the coil could be considered as I+Q components.  I now think this is an over-simplification, as it is not the case that a myriad of stray capacitance to ground can be replaced by a single shunt capacitor at the feedpoint (or anywhere else), and then assume a perfect inductor.  The real situation involves distributed capacitance, along the coil.  I'm no longer keen on an I+Q current model, as if all stray capacitance was a single capacitor at the feedpoint.
 
Test data appears to support that there is only one system resonance, and the input impedance is resistive at this resonant point.  This is reasonably consistent with the expected performance of a series resonant circuit (traditional theory of LF and MF vertical antennas).  The distributed capacitance lowers the resonant frequency compared to a perfect inductor.  
 
If any simple model is to be considered, it could be that the RF current divides between the capacitance of the antenna system proper (current going in to the antenna wire) and the net stray capacitance of the coil to ground.  PA0SE found this apportionment to be about 95/5.  Data from a ZL advised privately to me, for a loading coil in a metal box, shows a ratio of close to 90/10, and this is likely because the metal box definitely has higher shunt capacitance, but also likely to be low loss "flux catching".
 
A practical result is that it is generally safest to place an RF ammeter in series with the cold end of the loading coil, and maximum current (at loading coil resonance) does concur with maximum radiation.  The trap is to claim that this indicated current is the antenna current, but as recent bulletins have underscored, the current in the antenna wire (from the coil hot side) is less, by some 5 to 10%.
 
73, Bob ZL2CA 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29991 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 21:28:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2001 21:28:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 29816 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 21:28:00 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 16 May 2001 21:28:00 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1508hN-0002yg-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 22:19:13 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from k2.pncl.co.uk ([212.35.226.183]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1508hJ-0002yW-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 22:19:09 +0100 Received: from 233.pncl.co.uk (195.234.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.uk [212.35.234.195]) by k2.pncl.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4GLISE13419 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 22:18:28 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010516221555.00a07cc0@mail.pncl.co.uk> X-Sender: blanch@mail.pncl.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 22:17:44 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Walter Blanchard" Subject: LF: LF Prop. In-reply-to: <004701c0de15$5c77abc0$3612f4cc@jsm> References: <3.0.1.16.20010516103336.2b5f0e90@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: FWIW, we had most problems with Decca skywave interference at sunspot minimum. Walter G3JKV. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14690 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 20:08:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2001 20:08:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 14377 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 20:08:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 16 May 2001 20:08:08 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1507TW-0002KM-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 21:00:50 +0100 Received: from hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net ([195.40.1.39]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1507TT-0002KH-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 21:00:47 +0100 Received: from ericadodd (tnt-1-60.easynet.co.uk [195.40.206.60]) by hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net (Postfix) with SMTP id AA61B22E031 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 21:00:05 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <000c01c0de43$4c7b54a0$3cce28c3@ericadodd> From: "g3ldo" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000f01c0de00$16428b80$d7a9883e@g3aqc> Subject: Re: LF: Wimborne meet Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 20:55:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > Subject: Re: LF: Wimborne meet Jim said > > Since it seems quite a few people won't be able to make it to the > > LF forum, perhaps now would be a good time to ask how many will > > be coming? > I shall make a big effort to be there. 73s Laurie. I expect to be going. Laurie, if you are going could I come along with you? My Tel 01903 770804 or e-mail I will be bringing the Frank Gentges active receiving antenna for someone else to test - I think I promised it to Derek, G3GRO. Regards, Peter, G3LDO e-mail Web From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19676 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 18:44:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2001 18:44:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 20134 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 18:43:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 16 May 2001 18:43:51 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 15069t-0001ei-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 19:36:29 +0100 Received: from mta1-svc.virgin.net ([62.253.164.41]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 15069o-0001ed-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 19:36:24 +0100 Received: from p.cleal ([62.255.20.194]) by mta1-svc.virgin.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with SMTP id <20010516183548.VZCK267.mta1-svc.virgin.net@p.cleal> for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 19:35:48 +0100 Message-ID: <002401c0de37$1f304ac0$c214ff3e@p.cleal> From: "Peter Cleall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Wimborne meet Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 19:36:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: regret unable to attend this specific weekend. Normally I would very very pleased to travel up to 100 miles each way for such a meeting, but it is just not possible this time. Have fun. peter G8AFN -----Original Message----- From: Talbot Andrew To: 'rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org' Date: 16 May 2001 15:14 Subject: RE: LF: Wimborne meet >Three said they were coming from the Crawley club, with the rest of the >old Decca hardware. >G3HEJ contacted me for directions, and so did a callsign I can't >remember so it looks like we're into the teens at least. > >Who else ? > >Andy 'JNT > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mike Dennison [mailto:mike.dennison@rsgb.org.uk] >> Sent: 2001-05-16 13:57 >> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> Subject: Re: LF: Wimborne meet >> >> >> > Since it seems quite a few people won't be able to make it to the >> > LF forum, perhaps now would be a good time to ask how many will >> > be coming? >> >> I will be there. >> >> >> >> Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) >> http://www.lf.thersgb.net >> >> > > >-- >The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence >is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s). >For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, >or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is >prohibited and may be unlawful. > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11530 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 18:35:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2001 18:35:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 11594 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 18:35:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 16 May 2001 18:35:29 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 15063W-0001dh-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 19:29:54 +0100 Received: from mta1-svc.virgin.net ([62.253.164.41]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 15063T-0001dY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 19:29:51 +0100 Received: from p.cleal ([62.255.20.194]) by mta1-svc.virgin.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with SMTP id <20010516182917.VXAD267.mta1-svc.virgin.net@p.cleal> for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 19:29:17 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c0de36$35cb73a0$c214ff3e@p.cleal> From: "Peter Cleall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: SV: LF: SV: Re. T/A tests. Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:20:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: When I was working on the decay of satellite orbits about 10 years ago the drag on the satellite, required an equation that accounted for 11 year, time of year and recent solar effects both flux and geomagnetic. In that particular case the flux turned out to be the best parameters for the general changes over reasonable periods of time. Using something in the form [3 monthly mean solar flux + 0.4*[difference between the 3 day mean flux and the 3 monthly figure]]. Retrospective analysis showed the deviations from this ,mainly occurred due to daily differences from the mean and also from random solar/geomagnetic influences. We may be able to deduce something similar with one or more of the Solar parameters to solve our long term understanding of our propagation medium. regards peter cleall G8AFN -----Original Message----- From: john sexton To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: 15 May 2001 19:15 Subject: Re: SV: LF: SV: Re. T/A tests. > >Hi Chris, >Terman's graphs show that T/A sig levels are strongest during peaks of the >solar cycle. Whereas the correlation that Laurie described is T/A success >when sunspot numbers are low. >My guess is that both are probably true, i.e. on average T/A signal levels >are better during the active part of the cycle, but conversely weak signals >are more likely to be disrupted during the active part. >We will probably find that at the low point of the cycle chances of getting >across are worse but consistently worse, if you follow me. >73, John > > > > > >_______________________________________________________ >Send a cool gift with your E-Card >http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5521 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 17:11:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2001 17:11:28 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: (qmail 19235 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 17:10:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 16 May 2001 17:10:59 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1504kc-00010o-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 18:06:18 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.88]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1504kZ-00010j-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 18:06:15 +0100 Received: from telemetry.demon.co.uk ([194.222.19.114]) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 1504jJ-000Ip9-0U for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 18:04:57 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 17:07:25 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Tom Boucher" Subject: Re: LF: Wimborne meet In-reply-to: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C04A4@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.03a Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Me - G3OLB In message <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C04A4@pdw-mail- 1.dera.gov.uk>, Talbot Andrew writes >Three said they were coming from the Crawley club, with the rest of the >old Decca hardware. >G3HEJ contacted me for directions, and so did a callsign I can't >remember so it looks like we're into the teens at least. > >Who else ? > >Andy 'JNT > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mike Dennison [mailto:mike.dennison@rsgb.org.uk] >> Sent: 2001-05-16 13:57 >> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> Subject: Re: LF: Wimborne meet >> >> >> > Since it seems quite a few people won't be able to make it to the >> > LF forum, perhaps now would be a good time to ask how many will >> > be coming? >> >> I will be there. >> >> >> >> Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) >> http://www.lf.thersgb.net >> >> > > -- Tom Boucher Telemetry Consultants Limited 10 Market Square Chesham Buckinghamshire HP5 1ES UK Tel: (44)(0)1494 792433 Fax: (44)(0)1494 792533 Mobile:07932-615232 www.telemetry.demon.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14920 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 14:40:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2001 14:40:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 19797 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 14:40:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 16 May 2001 14:40:08 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1502OI-0008PL-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:35:06 +0100 Received: from neptune.imagenisp.com ([204.244.138.19]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1502OE-0008PG-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:35:03 +0100 Received: from jsm (bby1.imagenisp.com [204.244.18.54]) by neptune.imagenisp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id K4AF4M91; Wed, 16 May 2001 07:34:47 -0700 Message-ID: <004701c0de15$5c77abc0$3612f4cc@jsm> From: "Steve McDonald" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3.0.1.16.20010516103336.2b5f0e90@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> Subject: Re: SV: LF: SV: Re. T/A tests. Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 07:34:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > Question is : will the E layer ionisation be strong enough at soloar minimum ? > The answer will be known in a few years ... > I'm not sure how closely NDB band propagtion compares with 136 but it is a lot closer than 80 or 160. There is no doubt (from my experience) that propagtion in this region of the spectrum is much, much better during sunspot minima years - hopefully it translates into improved LF condx for 136. I think there will be some really great propagation in the years coming and along with the new modes (QRSS/WOLF etc) some of the present distance records will be shattered. Steve / VE7SL From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21768 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 14:18:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2001 14:18:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 13551 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 14:17:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 16 May 2001 14:17:39 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1501yd-0008C6-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:08:35 +0100 X-Priority: 3 Received: from bob.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1501yI-0008C0-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:08:15 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: by bob.dera.gov.uk; (8.8.8/1.3/10May95) id PAA06536; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:11:19 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 84 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 15:00:37 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk (172.16.9.10) by baton.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 16 May 2001 15:00:37 -0000 Received: by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk; id OAA29791; Wed, 16 May 2001 14:55:32 GMT Received: from unknown(10.71.64.31) by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk via smap (3.2) id xma029648; Wed, 16 May 01 14:54:51 GMT Received: from FRN-MAIL-3.dera.gov.uk (unverified) by mailguard.dera.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:14:21 +0100 Received: by frn-mail-3.dera.gov.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:06:10 +0100 Message-ID: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C04A4@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Wimborne meet Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:56:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Three said they were coming from the Crawley club, with the rest of the old Decca hardware. G3HEJ contacted me for directions, and so did a callsign I can't remember so it looks like we're into the teens at least. Who else ? Andy 'JNT > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Dennison [mailto:mike.dennison@rsgb.org.uk] > Sent: 2001-05-16 13:57 > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Subject: Re: LF: Wimborne meet > > > > Since it seems quite a few people won't be able to make it to the > > LF forum, perhaps now would be a good time to ask how many will > > be coming? > > I will be there. > > > > Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) > http://www.lf.thersgb.net > > -- The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s). For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is prohibited and may be unlawful. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14873 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 13:10:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2001 13:10:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 25704 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 13:09:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 16 May 2001 13:09:34 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1500wm-0007kD-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 14:02:36 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from [213.2.16.106] (helo=rsgb.org.uk) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 1500wj-0007k8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 14:02:33 +0100 Received: from miked by rsgb.org.uk with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v4.0.0.R) for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 13:56:59 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Mike Dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:56:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: LF: Wimborne meet Message-ID: <3B028729.22167.10733DB@localhost> References: <004301c0ddf1$63a9c0a0$9d6e78d5@btopenworld.com> In-reply-to: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-Return-Path: miked@mail X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > Since it seems quite a few people won't be able to make it to the > LF forum, perhaps now would be a good time to ask how many will > be coming? I will be there. Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8503 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 12:12:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2001 12:12:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 21608 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 12:12:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 16 May 2001 12:12:24 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 15001r-0007JJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 13:03:47 +0100 Received: from cmailg3.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.195.173]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 15001n-0007JE-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 13:03:43 +0100 Received: from modem-215.edain.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.169.215] helo=g3aqc) by cmailg3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 15001G-0000fM-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 13:03:10 +0100 Message-ID: <000f01c0de00$16428b80$d7a9883e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: Subject: Re: LF: Wimborne meet Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:01:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: LF: Wimborne meet > Dear LF Group, > > Since it seems quite a few people won't be able to make it to the > LF forum, perhaps now would be a good time to ask how many will > be coming? > > Cheers, Jim Moritz > 73 de M0BMU > I shall make a big effort to be there. 73s Laurie. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14510 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 11:22:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2001 11:22:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 29249 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 11:21:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 16 May 2001 11:21:47 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zzHB-0006xc-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:15:33 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zzH7-0006xX-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:15:30 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 14zzGb-0005NP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:14:57 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from [147.197.130.252] (helo=mj9ar) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 14zzGa-0006Y1-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:14:56 +0100 From: "James Moritz" Organization: University of Hertfordshire To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:15:34 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: LF: Wimborne meet In-reply-to: <004301c0ddf1$63a9c0a0$9d6e78d5@btopenworld.com> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Message-ID: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF Group, Since it seems quite a few people won't be able to make it to the LF forum, perhaps now would be a good time to ask how many will be coming? Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6664 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 10:36:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2001 10:36:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 21397 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 10:35:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 16 May 2001 10:35:45 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zyZH-0006dd-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:30:11 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zyZD-0006dY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:30:07 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 14zyYf-0003o0-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:29:33 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from [147.197.130.252] (helo=mj9ar) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 14zyYe-0005eV-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:29:32 +0100 From: "James Moritz" Organization: University of Hertfordshire To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:30:10 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: LF: Sunspot Cycle & LF X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Message-ID: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF group, The graphs in Terman show only a modest 3-4 dB variation in signal level over the sunspot cycle - but what they don't show is what the signal-to-noise ratio was. The high noise level on LF is one of the major factors deciding if communications can take place or not. If a lot of the background noise on the band is from distant electrical storms, one would expect the noise level to be subject to the same propagation effects as the signals are. It could go either way I suppose, so I await the solar minimum with interest. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4920 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 10:24:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2001 10:24:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 11381 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 10:23:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 16 May 2001 10:23:45 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zyKA-0006Wb-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:14:34 +0100 Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.176] helo=protactinium) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zyK9-0006WW-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:14:33 +0100 Received: from [213.120.110.157] (helo=mud) by protactinium with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 14zyJd-0000QN-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:14:01 +0100 Message-ID: <004301c0ddf1$63a9c0a0$9d6e78d5@btopenworld.com> From: "G3YXM" To: "LF Group" Subject: LF: Wimborne meet Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:17:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear all. I don't think I'll be able to make it to the forum on Sunday, other commitments, but I would like to include a summary of what went on for the next LF column. The deadline for that is Monday.... Is anyone who is going, prepared to e-mail me a short report when they get home on Sunday evening? Please contact me direct at dave@wireless.org.uk Thanks in anticipation. Dave G3YXM. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21254 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 09:40:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2001 09:40:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 24564 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 09:40:06 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 16 May 2001 09:40:06 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zxgD-0006Cf-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 10:33:17 +0100 Received: from mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zxg9-0006Ca-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 10:33:13 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA1149532 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:32:40 +0200 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20010516103336.2b5f0e90@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> X-Sender: pb623250@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:33:36 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: Re: SV: LF: SV: Re. T/A tests. In-reply-to: <19998408.989949961771.JavaMail.imail@spike.excite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello group, I am not sure that propagation on 137kHz is much correlated to 1.8 or 3.5MHz. On those bands (160m and 80m) DX propagation is mainly via reflection at the F2 layer and the signals are attenuated by the D (and eventually E) layer. During solar minimum the ionisation of the D and E layer is very weak while the F2 layer ionisation remains strong enough for these low frequencies. When I understand some articles about propagation on LF well, DX propagation is via E layer reflection (in some seldom cases even D-layer reflection). This would explain that QSO's up to 2000km (1 hop e-layer reflection) are made with rather low ERP (few 10mW) while transatlantic propagation (2 hops or more) require at least a few 100mW. Question is : will the E layer ionisation be strong enough at soloar minimum ? The answer will be known in a few years ... 73, Rik ON7YD At 11:05 15/05/01 -0700, you wrote: > >Hi Chris, >Terman's graphs show that T/A sig levels are strongest during peaks of the >solar cycle. Whereas the correlation that Laurie described is T/A success >when sunspot numbers are low. >My guess is that both are probably true, i.e. on average T/A signal levels >are better during the active part of the cycle, but conversely weak signals >are more likely to be disrupted during the active part. >We will probably find that at the low point of the cycle chances of getting >across are worse but consistently worse, if you follow me. >73, John > > > > > >_______________________________________________________ >Send a cool gift with your E-Card >http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ > > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21250 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 08:27:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 16 May 2001 08:27:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 7368 invoked from network); 16 May 2001 08:26:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 16 May 2001 08:26:29 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zwXA-0005fL-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 09:19:52 +0100 Received: from cmailg5.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.195.175]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zwX6-0005fD-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 09:19:48 +0100 Received: from modem-21.orange-tail-butterfly.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.43.149] helo=g3aqc) by cmailg5.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14zwWY-0008FZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 09:19:14 +0100 Message-ID: <000d01c0dde0$cd6d9ea0$952b893e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <19998408.989949961771.JavaMail.imail@spike.excite.com> Subject: Re: SV: LF: SV: Re. T/A tests. Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 09:18:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "john sexton" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 7:05 PM Subject: Re: SV: LF: SV: Re. T/A tests. > > Hi Chris, > Terman's graphs show that T/A sig levels are strongest during peaks of the > solar cycle. Whereas the correlation that Laurie described is T/A success > when sunspot numbers are low. > My guess is that both are probably true, i.e. on average T/A signal levels > are better during the active part of the cycle, but conversely weak signals > are more likely to be disrupted during the active part. > We will probably find that at the low point of the cycle chances of getting > across are worse but consistently worse, if you follow me. Or at the high point,chances are greater but less consistant ! Laurie > 73, John > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Send a cool gift with your E-Card > http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ > > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18751 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 18:19:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2001 18:19:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 11327 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 18:18:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 15 May 2001 18:18:49 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zjE5-0008HN-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 19:07:17 +0100 Received: from fortune-rwcmta.excite.com ([198.3.99.203] helo=fortune.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zjDz-0008EQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 19:07:11 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from spike.excite.com ([199.172.152.97]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20010515180601.WVUH3113.fortune.excite.com@spike.excite.com> for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:06:01 -0700 Message-ID: <19998408.989949961771.JavaMail.imail@spike.excite.com> Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:05:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "john sexton" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: SV: LF: SV: Re. T/A tests. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 62.253.64.5 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Chris, Terman's graphs show that T/A sig levels are strongest during peaks of the solar cycle. Whereas the correlation that Laurie described is T/A success when sunspot numbers are low. My guess is that both are probably true, i.e. on average T/A signal levels are better during the active part of the cycle, but conversely weak signals are more likely to be disrupted during the active part. We will probably find that at the low point of the cycle chances of getting across are worse but consistently worse, if you follow me. 73, John _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6066 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 14:02:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2001 14:02:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 12128 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 14:02:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 15 May 2001 14:02:23 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zfIO-0006QE-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 14:55:28 +0100 X-Priority: 3 Received: from bob.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zfIL-0006Q8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 14:55:25 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: by bob.dera.gov.uk; (8.8.8/1.3/10May95) id OAA00886; Tue, 15 May 2001 14:58:49 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 14976 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 14:48:14 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk (172.16.9.10) by baton.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 15 May 2001 14:48:14 -0000 Received: by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk; id OAA26466; Tue, 15 May 2001 14:43:14 GMT Received: from unknown(10.71.64.31) by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk via smap (3.2) id xma026327; Tue, 15 May 01 14:42:35 GMT Received: from frn-gold-1.dera.gov.uk (unverified) by mailguard.dera.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 14:37:04 +0100 Received: by frn-gold-1.dera.gov.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Tue, 15 May 2001 14:29:10 +0100 Message-ID: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C04A2@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Is 0.5dB useful ? Listening tests Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:24:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I've often thought that a listening test amongst amateur radio operators under precisely controlled conditions would throw up some interesting results. Especially amongst the expert contest operators and DX chasers. Listening to pre-recorded SSB voice and CW signals with variable and accurately measured S/N and QRM levels would be the simplest way . To keep the test as accurate as possible, the messages would need to be replayed on standard equipment - say at a rally or convention somewhere. The main problem with this method, as I see it, is that CW each operator has their own preferred CW pitch and some like to be continually shifting this (professional intercept opertors do anyway), and this would not be possible with pre-recorded messages replayed as audio. Also, shifting SSB tuning from optimum can help resolution in some cases. So some means of injecting precise noise and QRM levels into a locally generated signal, to be received off air , would be a better solution, but more difficult to arrange with laboratory prescision at a large event. It can be done though.... Pre-recorded voice / CW signals could be mixed with known and variable levels of noise and standard reference QRM sets, then upconverted, allowing operators to twiddle to their taste. Andy G4JNT > Even with analogue modes this sort of improvement can be much > more useful > than many people would think when the signal is close to the > noise. I would > always go for any improvement, no matter how small, as they > all add up. > > Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) > http://www.lf.thersgb.net > > -- The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s). For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is prohibited and may be unlawful. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24077 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 12:53:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2001 12:53:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 11552 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 12:53:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 15 May 2001 12:53:17 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zeFF-0005rn-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 13:48:09 +0100 Received: from [200.189.209.130] (helo=mail01.osite.com.br) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zeFA-0005ri-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 13:48:04 +0100 Received: from piii800 (a59081.impsat.com.br [200.189.250.81] (may be forged)) by mail01.osite.com.br (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f4FCj9204961; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:45:10 -0300 (EST) Message-ID: <005f01c0dd3d$2ea6c9c0$fbfbfea9@piii800> From: "PY3CRX PY2PLL" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Cc: Davidson.John.A@sd.littonisd.com References: <3.0.1.16.20010515095905.40170ee0@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> Subject: LF: Re: CFA Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:45:53 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mail01.osite.com.br id f4FCj9204961 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi ... > Anyone with experience of CFA, who can point John into the right direction ? > I got the mail direct, I assume than John is not subscribed, so please any > responses with a CC to : I subscribed one year ago to Antennex (www.antennex.com) looking for CFA info. CFA still a mystery for most of the world - except for its creators. Anyway, an interesting reading ... There´s several articles there, for 160m, 80, 40, 20m, etc etc ... but no conclusions. Seems that CFAs needs to be blessed by one of its creators (Mr Kabbary) to work ... as a CFA :o) 73 Marcus, PY3CRX/PY2PLL RR66rf http://py.qsl.br Active from "DC" to 24GHz From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10532 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 12:38:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2001 12:38:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 455 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 12:37:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 15 May 2001 12:37:44 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zdzz-0005ke-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 13:32:23 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from [213.2.16.106] (helo=rsgb.org.uk) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zdzv-0005kY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 13:32:19 +0100 Received: from miked by rsgb.org.uk with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v4.0.0.R) for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 13:27:44 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Mike Dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:27:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: LF: Is 0.5dB useful? Message-ID: <3B012ECD.27863.DF24E0@localhost> In-reply-to: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C049C@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-Return-Path: miked@mail X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > Also, note that at the critical point on the error rate vs. S/N curve, > when using a strong error correcting code like WOLF, 0.5dB can be the > difference between no copy at all and perfect copy. > > Andy 'JNT Even with analogue modes this sort of improvement can be much more useful than many people would think when the signal is close to the noise. I would always go for any improvement, no matter how small, as they all add up. Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28353 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 11:23:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2001 11:23:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 19396 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 11:22:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 15 May 2001 11:22:50 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zclL-0005Bi-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 12:13:11 +0100 Received: from rubellite.lion-access.net ([212.19.217.4]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zclH-0005Bd-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 12:13:07 +0100 Received: from w8k3f0 (1Cust222.tnt34.rtm1.nl.uu.net [213.116.162.222]) by rubellite.lion-access.net (I-Lab) with SMTP id AC1BC2AC0 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:12:10 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <002301c0dd30$5e8f6b40$dea274d5@w8k3f0> From: "Dick Rollema" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: The case of the missing amps Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:14:38 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
To All from PA0SE
 
At the risk of boring you even more I report the result of another experiment I made on my loading coil.
To avoid disasters I replaced the transmitter by an old Rohde & Schwarz valved power signal generator type SMLR, tuned to 137kHz.
 
The voltage at the top end of the loading coil was measured by an even older Philips valve voltmeter type GM3765.
 
The voltage at the bottom end of the coil was indicated on an oscilloscope. The current in the earth wire was passed through a 0.78 ohm resistor; the voltage over the resistor being indicated by the second trace on the scope.
 
Test A.
 
The system was tuned for maximum voltage at the top end of the coil (= voltage on the aerial) and the generator output adjusted to make this 50V.
 
Voltage at bottom end of the coil:     0.636V
Current in earth wire:                         13mA
Phase angle:                                          0°
Power into system:                              8.3mW 
 
Test B.
 
The aerial is disconnected. The vacuum capacitor in parallel with the the coil is increased to replace the 370pF of the aerial. The system is tuned for maximum voltage at the top end of the coil and the generator output adjusted to make this 50V again.
 
Voltage at bottom end of the coil: 5.6V
Current in earth wire:                       1.8mA                                            
Phase angle:                                    68° capacitive               
Power into system:                           3.8mW    (= U * I * cos68°)
 
Current, phase angle and power are approximate values because the deflection on the scope indicating the current was small and the trace widened by the coil picking up signals from broadcast stations.
 
C. Conclusion
 
In test B current flows into the bottom end of the coil and none into the aerial. The circuit in which this current flows must be via capacitance between coil and earth and via the earth wire back to the generator.
Because in test A and B the voltage over the coil is roughly the same that current  must also be flowing when the aerial is connected. That should explain the difference in current in earth  and aerial wire that started this long discussion.
The real part of the 1.8mA earth current in test B is 1.8mA  * cos68° = 0.67mA, which is about 5% of the 13mA (real) current in test A. 
 
That is the same percentage I noted as difference between currents at top and bottom end of the coil using full transmitter power (2.0A at top and 2.1A at bottom end).  
 
Jim, M0BMU, has explained it all very well in his e-mail of May 14.
 
Is this the end of my reports? I hope for you it is ...
 
73, Dick, PA0SE
             
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29733 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 10:43:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2001 10:43:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 15916 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 10:43:10 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 15 May 2001 10:43:10 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zbRr-0004Tp-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:48:59 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zbRn-0004Tg-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:48:55 +0100 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA164260 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:48:22 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20010515104908.13b7c8ce@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> X-Sender: pb623250@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:49:08 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: Re: LF: Radiation from loading coil causing difference in current at top and bottom? In-reply-to: <002c01c0db96$045db000$fa8274d5@w8k3f0> References: <3.0.1.16.20010510084513.2c6f9b82@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> <004f01c0d9a2$3334c6c0$2cb21bca@rvernall> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 12:00 13/05/01 +0200, PA0SE wrote: >So my conclusion is that the difference in current must be due to radiation >from the coil. The late Klaas Spaargaren, PA0KSB, once told me that in >an article on mobile antennas it was stated that a coil of L metre length >produced a radiation equal to a straight wire of that same length. >As reported before that would in my case produce a current difference of >only 1.55%, as shown by computer modelling; much less than the measured >difference. >Perhaps the statement in the article is not true, or not applicable for the >sort of coils we >use on LF? >Could that explain the succes of the helical antenna? Hello Dick, as I see it a (short) vertical wire acts mainly as a capacitance distributed over the wire and has to be brought to resonance by an inductance (loading coil). 'Below' the loading coil the antenna voltage is low and the antenna current remains alomost constant, 'above' the coil the antenna voltage is high and the antenna current has a linear decrease (to be 0 at the end of the vertical wire). With a helical antenna both the inductance and capacitance are distributed over the entire antenna. If the helical is the right size no additional inductance is needed, the antenna has a 'natural resonance' on 136kHz. In that case antenna voltage and current will increase (voltage) and decresae (current) sinusoidal. Due to the better current distribution a helical antenna will have a 1.54 times higher radiation resistance that a vertical wire of the same length (with the loading coil at ground level), this equals a gain of 1.9dB. I believe that the main problem with a helical antenna on 136kHz is 'mechanical'. You have to make a 10 to 15m high construction that will withstand wind and rain. The only ham tht used a helical with succes (as far as I know) was Tony, HB9ASB, but even his antenna came down in a gale. 73, Rik ON7YD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14464 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 10:37:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2001 10:37:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 11712 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 10:36:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 15 May 2001 10:36:38 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zbeb-0004cd-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:02:09 +0100 Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.81]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zbeX-0004cY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:02:06 +0100 Received: from [213.1.82.98] (helo=default) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 14zbe0-0000dM-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:01:33 +0100 Message-ID: <000e01c0dd25$7517db00$625201d5@default> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: Sun spots and Terman Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:56:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, this is a interesting problem...is LF going to get better, or worse, as we go down into the next solar minimum ?? The problem with Terman's graphs are that they are 'averages' and looked at in light of the greater detail in some of the pre-war papers on LF propagation they only tell part of the story. Also they are aimed at determining useful service area for broadcast stations and reliable point to point comms. Amateur communication does not exist on 'averages' but generally survives on peaks and rarer events. It seems true that the peak strengths of signals are higher in disturbed conditions but the dips are also lower, and there are prolonged periods of severe absorption. It is not clear what his averages refer to, how long the signals are high, and whether there are deep fades as well. I suspect that the 'quiet' sun conditions of a solar minimum will not be as good as conditions when a geomagnetic disturbance is just decaying away. Fortunately the sun continues to produce some geomagnetic events even in quiet years. Quieter periods around the 11-year maximum may well turnout to be the best times for extreme DX on LF. Top band experience is interesting as some of the effects are common, but 160m propagates by the F-layer, whereas, as far as I can be sure, 136 kHz propages by the D-layer and at most the lowest regions of the E-layer. There is a lot to be learned (or re-discovered) over the next 11 years !! I do hope some s/w for watching Loran signals becomes available as this would be a powerful tool for systematic monitoring. Cheer sde Alan G3NYK Alan.Melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15340 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 10:37:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2001 10:37:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 11699 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 10:36:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 15 May 2001 10:36:38 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zbkP-0004ib-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:08:09 +0100 X-Priority: 3 Received: from bob.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zbkN-0004iV-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:08:08 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: by bob.dera.gov.uk; (8.8.8/1.3/10May95) id LAA09111; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:11:40 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 13676 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 10:59:36 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk (172.16.9.10) by baton.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 15 May 2001 10:59:36 -0000 Received: by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk; id KAA12288; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:54:32 GMT Received: from unknown(10.71.64.31) by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk via smap (3.2) id xma012224; Tue, 15 May 01 10:53:58 GMT Received: from FRN-MAIL-3.dera.gov.uk (unverified) by mailguard.dera.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:13:17 +0100 Received: by frn-mail-3.dera.gov.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:05:09 +0100 Message-ID: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C049C@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Loading coil siting Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:05:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > > > ... > >Whether my signal will be any better is another matter. > > Hi John, > > It should be a 0.5dB (about 1/10 of an S-point) improvement. > Doesn't look > impessive at the first sight, but all bits will help. > Also, note that at the critical point on the error rate vs. S/N curve, when using a strong error correcting code like WOLF, 0.5dB can be the difference between no copy at all and perfect copy. Andy 'JNT -- The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s). For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is prohibited and may be unlawful. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14389 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 10:37:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2001 10:37:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 11692 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 10:36:37 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 15 May 2001 10:36:37 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zbRy-0004Tr-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:49:06 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zbRn-0004Tf-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:48:55 +0100 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA164258; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:48:19 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20010515095905.40170ee0@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> X-Sender: pb623250@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:59:05 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: LF: CFA Cc: Davidson.John.A@sd.littonisd.com In-reply-to: <003001c0dc93$732ff580$265997d4@W98.swipnet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Just received following mail : >From: "Davidson, John" > ... >I want to make a home bru crossed field antenna to play with >& try it for the AM BCB with a crystal radio. >Do you know of anyone who has home brewed one? >Or any refs? Any advice? Anyone with experience of CFA, who can point John into the right direction ? I got the mail direct, I assume than John is not subscribed, so please any responses with a CC to : Davidson.John.A@sd.littonisd.com 73, Rik ON7YD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22293 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 08:52:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 15 May 2001 08:52:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 829 invoked from network); 15 May 2001 08:51:35 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 15 May 2001 08:51:35 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zaQF-00040G-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:43:15 +0100 Received: from mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zaQA-000409-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:43:11 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA1041102 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:42:32 +0200 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20010515094331.2b770632@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> X-Sender: pb623250@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:43:31 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: Re: LF: Loading coil siting In-reply-to: <26319357.989600346236.JavaMail.imail@neon.excite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 09:58 11/05/01 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Guys, >I moved my loading coil yesterday and the ground loss dropped from 103 ohms >to 91 ohms. That is 12 ohms removed at a stroke! > ... >Whether my signal will be any better is another matter. Hi John, It should be a 0.5dB (about 1/10 of an S-point) improvement. Doesn't look impessive at the first sight, but all bits will help. 73, Rik ON7YD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10122 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 22:32:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2001 22:32:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 1949 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 22:32:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 14 May 2001 22:32:23 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zQoy-0008BQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 23:28:08 +0100 Received: from chalfont.mail.uk.easynet.net ([195.40.1.44]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zQox-0008BL-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 23:28:07 +0100 Received: from ericadodd (tnt-3-238.easynet.co.uk [195.40.202.238]) by chalfont.mail.uk.easynet.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 6E755F81E5 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 23:27:33 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <001101c0dcc5$8c1aab80$eeca28c3@ericadodd> From: "g3ldo" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <003001c0dc93$732ff580$265997d4@W98.swipnet.se> Subject: LF: Re: T/A tests. Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 23:30:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: sm6pxj said "Radio Engineer's Handbook" by Terman (1943): http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-54761/terman1.jpg http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-54761/terman2.jpg There seems to be a close correlation between sunspot numbers and yearly average of signal strength for T/A LF signals. Maybe we better catch the train. This should not surprise us. We know that the best DX condx on the 1.8MHz band occur during periods of low sunspot activity. My 1.8MHz CW QSO with Stew Perry, W1BB, (from 9L1, using less than 1w erp) occurred in July 1964, which coincided with the sunspot minimum. The illustrations from Terman are exactly the same as in my 1937 (2nd) Edition. I had considered including this material in the LF Handbook but there were copyright issues of which I was unsure. It is interesting that a statistical analysis of the reception of Laurie's transmissions by John are in line with the graphs in the Terman book. It would seem that our LF experiments have been carried out in less than optimum conditions and that there is a lot better to come. Regards, Peter, G3LDO e-mail Web From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9329 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 21:58:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2001 21:58:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 25798 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 21:58:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 14 May 2001 21:58:14 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zQCe-0007ri-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 22:48:32 +0100 Received: from lepidachrosite.lion-access.net ([212.19.217.3]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zQCa-0007rd-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 22:48:28 +0100 Received: from w8k3f0 (1Cust197.tnt5.rtm1.nl.uu.net [213.116.104.197]) by lepidachrosite.lion-access.net (I-Lab) with SMTP id 3700DCBD2E for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 21:47:04 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <000801c0dcbf$f6a5d020$c56874d5@w8k3f0> From: "Dick Rollema" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3.0.1.16.20010510084513.2c6f9b82@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> <004f01c0d9a2$3334c6c0$2cb21bca@rvernall> <002c01c0db96$045db000$fa8274d5@w8k3f0> <001c01c0dbe8$33b0e320$36b51bca@xtr743187> <001e01c0dc83$8b612580$9da674d5@w8k3f0> <002d01c0dcac$fe21fda0$b2b21bca@xtr743187> Subject: LF: Re: Re: Re: Re: Radiation from loading coil causing difference in current at top and bottom? Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 23:50:13 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: To Bob, ZL2CA and others . Bob wrote: > My first reaction to this IS one of surprise. My first thoughts are that in > a series resonant circuit (the loading coil in series with antenna > capacitance and system resistance) the loop current would be in-phase (an I > current) with the transmitter drive. The loop current, translated as voltage over the resistor in the earth connection, IS in phase with the transmitter outpuit voltage when the system is tuned for maximum current in the aerial, as explained in my e-mail.. > My second thought on your observed > phasing is that an input current Q at the cold end of the loading coil turns > up as a similar magnitude quadrature current Q at the hot end??? Because the impedance at the cold end op the coil is resistive when the system is tuned for maximum aerial current there is no Q current going into the coil. > Or is it > that the very low capacitance coupling of your scope probe near the top of > the coil means that it is equivalent to a constant current source, with > current leading the voltage by 90 degrees (the capacitive reactance being > many times the load impedance on the probe)??? In my view the probe acts as an E-field probe. The E-field is in phase with the voltage at the top of the coil. So the phase of the voltage on the probe is the same as the phase of the voltage at the top of the coil. (The distance between probe and coil is so small, expressed in wavelength, that this causes negligible extra phase shift). 73, Dick, PA0SE > > > Using the idea of I+Q current going into the cold end of the coil, I > > suggest > > > there are two tuning conditions of interest: > > > - when the antenna is tuned for maximum current out the hot end (into > the > > > antenna wire), for maximum radiation, then the condition at the cold end > > is > > > not purely resistive > > > - when the loading coil is tuned so the current at the cold end is > > > resistive, the radiation current (hot end) may not be peaked. > > > > I checked this with great care. In my earlier e-mail I reported that the > > output waveform of the transmitter voltage was somewhat distorted due to > > harmonics. I now reduced the drive to the final amplifier to a level where > > the output voltage became a pure sinewave. The current into the bottom end > > of the coil was displayed as the voltage over a 0.78 ohm resistor > carrying > > the current. > > I very carefully tuned the system for maximum aerial current. Because > > voltage at and current into the cold end of the coil were now both > sinewaves > > I could superimpose them on the scope by varying the amplification in one > of > > the two channels. The two sinewaves completely coincided, showing that > > maximum aerial current occurs when the impedance at the cold end of the > coil > > is resistive. > > OK, that point is cleared up. > > > I think I now have done the maximum that is within my measuring > > capabilities. > > But suggestions are still welcome. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17554 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 21:02:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2001 21:02:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 22053 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 21:01:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 14 May 2001 21:01:33 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zPMZ-0007We-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 21:54:43 +0100 Received: from fep03.swip.net ([130.244.199.131] helo=fep03-svc.swip.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zPMW-0007WZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 21:54:40 +0100 Received: from W98 ([212.151.85.1]) by fep03-svc.swip.net with SMTP id <20010514205445.OATD3895.fep03-svc.swip.net@W98> for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 22:54:45 +0200 Message-ID: <004201c0dcb7$f380bc00$015597d4@W98.swipnet.se> From: "C Andersson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: SV: LF: SV: Re. T/A tests. Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 22:53:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >Hi Chris, >Surely this is the converse of Laurie's result? >John, G4CNN Hello John I'm not sure. A SNR graph for the same period of time may differ from the "Signal" graph in the Terman book. -Christer From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22528 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 20:01:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2001 20:01:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 11701 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 19:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 14 May 2001 19:40:53 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zO6g-0006sA-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 20:34:14 +0100 Received: from mta6-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.19]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zO6e-0006s1-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 20:34:13 +0100 Received: from xtr743187 ([202.27.178.178]) by mta6-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20010514193313.YUOU2065049.mta6-rme.xtra.co.nz@xtr743187> for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 07:33:13 +1200 Message-ID: <002d01c0dcac$fe21fda0$b2b21bca@xtr743187> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3.0.1.16.20010510084513.2c6f9b82@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> <004f01c0d9a2$3334c6c0$2cb21bca@rvernall> <002c01c0db96$045db000$fa8274d5@w8k3f0> <001c01c0dbe8$33b0e320$36b51bca@xtr743187> <001e01c0dc83$8b612580$9da674d5@w8k3f0> Subject: LF: Re: Re: Re: Radiation from loading coil causing difference in current at top and bottom? Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 07:30:30 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dick PA0SE and others, Thanks for doing further tests for phasing. > > You did not comment on > > the phase at the hot end of the coil compared to the cold end. > > I cannot measure the phase difference between currents in and out of the > coil. I don't have a current probe with my scope but even if I had one the > high voltage at the hot end necessary to obtain a readable current on the > thermo couple ammeter in the aerial wire would make the applicatiion of a > current probe impossible. > > I did look at the phase difference between the current at the bottom end and > the voltage end the top end. Holding the voltage probe of the scope near the > top of the coil was sufficient for this. > Not surprisingly the phase difference was exactly 90 degrees, as far as this > can be judged from a scope display. My first reaction to this IS one of surprise. My first thoughts are that in a series resonant circuit (the loading coil in series with antenna capacitance and system resistance) the loop current would be in-phase (an I current) with the transmitter drive. My second thought on your observed phasing is that an input current Q at the cold end of the loading coil turns up as a similar magnitude quadrature current Q at the hot end??? Or is it that the very low capacitance coupling of your scope probe near the top of the coil means that it is equivalent to a constant current source, with current leading the voltage by 90 degrees (the capacitive reactance being many times the load impedance on the probe)??? > > Using the idea of I+Q current going into the cold end of the coil, I > suggest > > there are two tuning conditions of interest: > > - when the antenna is tuned for maximum current out the hot end (into the > > antenna wire), for maximum radiation, then the condition at the cold end > is > > not purely resistive > > - when the loading coil is tuned so the current at the cold end is > > resistive, the radiation current (hot end) may not be peaked. > > I checked this with great care. In my earlier e-mail I reported that the > output waveform of the transmitter voltage was somewhat distorted due to > harmonics. I now reduced the drive to the final amplifier to a level where > the output voltage became a pure sinewave. The current into the bottom end > of the coil was displayed as the voltage over a 0.78 ohm resistor carrying > the current. > I very carefully tuned the system for maximum aerial current. Because > voltage at and current into the cold end of the coil were now both sinewaves > I could superimpose them on the scope by varying the amplification in one of > the two channels. The two sinewaves completely coincided, showing that > maximum aerial current occurs when the impedance at the cold end of the coil > is resistive. OK, that point is cleared up. > I think I now have done the maximum that is within my measuring > capabilities. > But suggestions are still welcome. Have you any comment on the 90 degree observation mentioned earlier? 73, Bob ZL2CA From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18304 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 19:39:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2001 19:39:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 3609 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 19:23:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 14 May 2001 19:23:11 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zNor-0006jv-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 20:15:49 +0100 Received: from bucky-rwcmex.excite.com ([198.3.99.218] helo=bucky.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zNoq-0006jg-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 20:15:48 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from spike.excite.com ([199.172.152.97]) by bucky.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20010514191438.PSTC7264.bucky.excite.com@spike.excite.com> for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 12:14:38 -0700 Message-ID: <27830305.989867678712.JavaMail.imail@spike.excite.com> Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 12:14:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "john sexton" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: SV: Re. T/A tests. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 62.253.64.5 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Chris, Surely this is the converse of Laurie's result? John, G4CNN _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3207 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 19:22:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2001 19:22:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 22685 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 19:22:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 14 May 2001 19:22:03 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zNoo-0006jp-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 20:15:46 +0100 Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.111]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zNok-0006jk-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 20:15:42 +0100 Received: from [62.7.37.50] (helo=default) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 14zNoD-00069H-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 20:15:09 +0100 Message-ID: <003001c0dca9$a63eef60$456e01d5@default> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: re re T/A tests and Solar events Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 20:06:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Laurie, All the parameters of the solar distubances are at least weakly related so you will get some correlation with Sun-spot number of any other parameter. When the sun spot number is high there is a higher likelyhood of geomagnetic disturbances. When the sunspot number is low there is less likely to be Flares and the associtaed CMEs, although I believe there may still be Coronal hole events. What you may like to try is a correlation to failure (i.e. a negative correlation in statistical terms) with the Kp index, but delay it by one day. My rationale behind that it that when the Kp is high (5 or above) there are energetic ions injected into the atmosphere at the magnetic poles. These create the Aurora but also drift down into the lower layers and spread out into the D-layer (I believe). This latter effect seems to take about 24hours. The Index drops rapidly but the injected ions in the ionosphere decay only slowly and the events can last for anything from 3 to 14 days. The best archive I have of Kp is that published every month on the dxlc web site. If you have the NOAA SEC data the graphs and timings of the increases are given in 3 hourly avaerages. The thing is that the increase in Kp indicates that the plasma 'glob' of a CME or coronal hole event has made impact on the ionosphere, with the possibility of injecting energetic charges into the layer. The problem is that there is so much going on at present and so many events running in to each other that it is difficult to sort out cause and effect. I would be interested in the dates you have as I have collected 75 graphs of SXV now and I am having trouble relating them to propagation conditions. The dates you were active and the dates you were heard (times if possible) would be interesting. I am getting some ideas on how to model these events and maybe draw some conclusions, but it is probably quite contentious. (Watch this space) If anyone would like the SXV graph archive please ask. I have not lodged these with Rik as I did not know how to explain the relevance of the plots on the propagation over the North Atlantic. The SXV plots do show that the effects we have seen over the N.Atlantic are also in action on shorter paths. Cheers de Alan G3NYK Alan.Melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27879 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 17:53:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2001 17:53:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 22353 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 17:53:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 14 May 2001 17:53:19 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zMQU-00063h-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 18:46:34 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mailout03.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.81]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zMQR-00063b-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 18:46:31 +0100 Received: from fwd01.sul.t-online.de by mailout03.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14zMPw-0001w9-03; Mon, 14 May 2001 19:46:00 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from (087321565-0001@[217.2.66.54]) by fwd01.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14zMPx-28pRjAC; Mon, 14 May 2001 19:46:01 +0200 From: "Hans-Joachim Brandt" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C0491@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> <3AFA2E4C.EBB3C4EF@alg.demon.co.uk> <3.0.1.16.20010510132736.2c87c87a@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> Subject: Re: LF: harmonics / LF antenna X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 19:46:01 +0200 Message-ID: <14zMPx-28pRjAC@fwd01.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 087321565-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Thanks, dear Rik, I am also employing a combination of a peaked low-pass filter and a normal low-pass filter in the tank circuit. Furthermore I have tried to receive my second harmonic in the lf broadcast range of my car radio. In about 80 meter distance there is still a beat note to be heard, but in 200 meters absolute nothing. In Germany we also have discussed that the third harmonic would fall into the aeronautical beacon band, and therefore some care to the harmonic problem should be taken. 73 Ha-Jo, DJ1ZB Rik Strobbe schrieb: > Hello group, > > few days ago I got a mail from someone new to LF who asked me how efficient > a vertical antenna would surpress the harmonic contests from the TX. > So far I hadn't put much thought on that as my 400W TX has a 3 stage LF > filter, keeping all harmonics at least 50dB down. But calculations seem te > be quite simple, above the resonance frequency the antenna becomes > inductive. The average antenna (few 100pF capacitance) will already at the > second harmonic have an inductive component of several 1000 Ohms, keeping > the (harmonic) current low. > But on the other hand the radiation resistance will increase by the square > of the frequency, making whateven harmonic current that gets through the > coil being radiated more efficient. > Just out of curiosity I calculated the overall efficiency of a loaded > vertical antenna on the harmonic frequencies and came to the result that > the harmonic supression is rather constant for all harmonics. > > Below you find the result for a vertical monopole with a capacitance of > 300pF and a loss resistance of 50 Ohm : > > FREQUENCY Impedance Efficiency (versus fundamental) > fund. (137kHz) 50 Ohm 0.0dB > 2nd harm. (274kHz) 5811 Ohm -29.3dB > 3rd harm. (411kHz) 10330 Ohm -30.7dB > 4rd harm. (548kHz) 14526 Ohm -31.2dB > 6th harm. (822kHz) 22596 Ohm -31.5dB > 8th harm. (1096kHz) 30505 Ohm -31.6dB > 10th harm. (1370kHz) 38349 Ohm -31.7dB > > For the calculations I assumed no stray capacitance in the coil, so in the > 'real world' the figures might be a few dB different, probably higher (less > negative). > > Further the harmonic surpresssion becomes less is the antenna capacitance > increases (smaller coil needed) and the loss resistance increases. > Eg : for a 'big' antenna with 600pF capacitance and 100 Ohm groundloss the > antenna efficiency on the 2nd harmonic frequency will be only -17.2dB down, > on the 10th harmonic -19.6dB. > > So sending a few 100W square wave into a big antenna is not really > recommended. > > 73, Rik ON7YD > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17277 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 16:46:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2001 16:46:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 13528 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 16:45:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 14 May 2001 16:45:28 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zLHk-0005Wy-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 17:33:28 +0100 Received: from fep01.swip.net ([130.244.199.129] helo=fep01-svc.swip.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zLHg-0005Wt-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 17:33:25 +0100 Received: from W98 ([212.151.89.38]) by fep01-svc.swip.net with SMTP id <20010514163323.NQIB18682.fep01-svc.swip.net@W98> for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 18:33:23 +0200 Message-ID: <003001c0dc93$732ff580$265997d4@W98.swipnet.se> From: "C Andersson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: SV: Re. T/A tests. Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:32:20 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: G3AQC wrote: >I have been unable to find any other correlation other than sun spot number ! >The best signals/contacts are when the sun spot no. is low. "Radio Engineer's Handbook" by Terman (1943): http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-54761/terman1.jpg http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-54761/terman2.jpg There seems to be a close correlation between sunspot numbers and yearly average of signal strength for T/A LF signals. Maybe we better catch the train. /sm6pxj From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26212 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 15:09:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2001 15:09:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 13045 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 15:08:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 14 May 2001 15:08:52 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zJls-0004qE-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:56:28 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zJlq-0004q9-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:56:26 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 14zJlI-0005r3-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:55:52 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from [147.197.130.252] (helo=mj9ar) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 14zJlI-0005VJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:55:52 +0100 From: "James Moritz" Organization: University of Hertfordshire To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:56:27 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: LF: Re: radiation from Loading coils X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Message-ID: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF Group, Dick's experiments looking at V and I on a 'scope simply demonstrate that the antenna was resonant - voltage and current in phase being one way of defining resonance in an LC circuit. This does not mean that significant currents are not flowing in the distributed capacitance of the coil or that they are in or out of phase with the applied voltage, just that the overall resultant voltage and current at the feed point are in phase. At my station, I use what is effectively the same method as Dick's experiment to tune my antenna during normal use - see the article in the LF handbook. It has the advantage that you can see at a glance if the antenna is resonant, and if the load resistance is correct. Any 2 conductors anywhere will have some capacitance between them. The distributed capacitance between a loading coil and ground can be quite substantial - several 10s of pF - because the coil has a big diameter compared to the antenna wire, and is close to the ground. A current must flow in the distributed capacitance, because there is a voltage between the coil and surroundings. The loading coil terminals and ground effectively form a 3 terminal impedance matching network containing distributed elements. For a small antenna with the resulting big loading coil, the current at each end of the coil will be significantly different due to the current flowing in the distributed capacitance. Conversely, a big antenna requiring a small loading coil with distributed capacitance much smaller than the antenna capacitance will have little difference in current at it's ends The distributed capacitance won't significantly reduce the overall efficiency of an antenna, provided the loss in the distributed capacitance is small compared to the overall antenna losses. It just means that a greater current is required at the cold end of the coil to get a particular antenna current. To minimise additional losses, much the same considerations should apply to siting the coil as the rest of the antenna, ie. as far as possible from lossy dielectric materials. Since the ground is a very lossy dielectric, there is a lot to be said for raising the coil off the ground as far as possible. The altenative is a low - loss electrostatic screen, to prevent the electric field of the high voltage parts of the coil reaching the lossy dielectrics. G3YXM seems to have done this succesfully, completely surrounding the coil. I once tried a similar experiment to GW4ALG's, covering a 3m x 3m area of ground around the loading coil with wire mesh, but it made no observable difference to the loss resistance. But then, my coil is already about 1.5m off the ground. There was only a few percent difference in current between the hot and cold ends of the coil, but my antenna is considerably bigger than Steve's, with about 50m of wire in total (305pF capacitance). When I had an indoor loading coil (with a similar antenna), the difference in current was considerably higher, about 10%, presumably due to higher distributed capacity Since most amateur LF antennas are high impedance devices (ie, high voltages, relatively low currents), I would guess that the dielectric losses will normally dominate the magnetic ones (hysteresis, eddy currents). The magnetic field of a coil falls off rapidly with distance - an inverse cube law, I believe, so keeping it a reasonable distance away from conducting materials is probably adequate to minimise the magnetic losses. However, a poorly designed electrostatic shield around a loading coil might increase the eddy current losses drasticaly. Any kind of experiment that involves measurement of V or I at the "hot" end of the coil using an oscilloscope is going to be very difficult to obtain meaningful results from - any connecting leads will considerably alter the capacitances, and the high electric and magnetic fields will induce signals in leads and probes that lead to erroneous results. Phase measurements using a 'scope are notoriously inaccurate, and small changes in phase will be hard to detect reliably. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27658 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 14:48:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2001 14:48:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 16762 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 14:48:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 14 May 2001 14:48:18 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zJSz-0004e5-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:36:57 +0100 Received: from lepidachrosite.lion-access.net ([212.19.217.3]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zJSv-0004e0-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:36:53 +0100 Received: from w8k3f0 (1Cust157.tnt36.rtm1.nl.uu.net [213.116.166.157]) by lepidachrosite.lion-access.net (I-Lab) with SMTP id AEC23CB32E for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 14:34:35 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <001e01c0dc83$8b612580$9da674d5@w8k3f0> From: "Dick Rollema" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3.0.1.16.20010510084513.2c6f9b82@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> <004f01c0d9a2$3334c6c0$2cb21bca@rvernall> <002c01c0db96$045db000$fa8274d5@w8k3f0> <001c01c0dbe8$33b0e320$36b51bca@xtr743187> Subject: LF: Re: Re: Radiation from loading coil causing difference in current at top and bottom? Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:37:42 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: To Bob, ZL2CA and others from PA0SE Bob wrote: > You did not comment on > the phase at the hot end of the coil compared to the cold end. I cannot measure the phase difference between currents in and out of the coil. I don't have a current probe with my scope but even if I had one the high voltage at the hot end necessary to obtain a readable current on the thermo couple ammeter in the aerial wire would make the applicatiion of a current probe impossible. I did look at the phase difference between the current at the bottom end and the voltage end the top end. Holding the voltage probe of the scope near the top of the coil was sufficient for this. Not surprisingly the phase difference was exactly 90 degrees, as far as this can be judged from a scope display. > Using the idea of I+Q current going into the cold end of the coil, I suggest > there are two tuning conditions of interest: > - when the antenna is tuned for maximum current out the hot end (into the > antenna wire), for maximum radiation, then the condition at the cold end is > not purely resistive > - when the loading coil is tuned so the current at the cold end is > resistive, the radiation current (hot end) may not be peaked. I checked this with great care. In my earlier e-mail I reported that the output waveform of the transmitter voltage was somewhat distorted due to harmonics. I now reduced the drive to the final amplifier to a level where the output voltage became a pure sinewave. The current into the bottom end of the coil was displayed as the voltage over a 0.78 ohm resistor carrying the current. I very carefully tuned the system for maximum aerial current. Because voltage at and current into the cold end of the coil were now both sinewaves I could superimpose them on the scope by varying the amplification in one of the two channels. The two sinewaves completely coincided, showing that maximum aerial current occurs when the impedance at the cold end of the coil is resistive. I think I now have done the maximum that is within my measuring capabilities. But suggestions are still welcome. 73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3868 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 12:19:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2001 12:19:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 5122 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 12:19:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 14 May 2001 12:19:00 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zH5e-0003bR-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 13:04:42 +0100 Received: from mail3.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.193.19]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zH5Z-0003bM-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 13:04:38 +0100 Received: from modem-114.panther-grouper.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.46.114] helo=g3aqc) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14zH50-0003PM-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 13:04:02 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c0dc6d$df396340$722e893e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. T/A tests. Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 13:01:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hi All,
 Having been beaconing for several weeks I decided to look at my latest series of test with VE1ZJ from16/04 through to 12/05. in order to try to correlate reception reports of my  signals with Solar date from NOAA.There seemed to be a connection to sun spot no's ,but I could not find any other correlations.So I decided to extend my investigations to include other data,including that published by G3XDV. The period now extends from Sept. 2000 when the first  X band contact was made by G0MRF. 
I have been unable to find any other correlation other than sun spot number ! The best signals/contacts are when the sun spot no. is low. Out of 26 events (contacts/reports etc) the 5 best ones were when the count was less than 100.For example G0MRF X band SP No.69. G3LDO one way SP No.38. G3LDO/VE1ZJ SP No.99. G3AQC/ZA3LK 95.  The remainder  occurred between 100 and 200, but there were none when the count exceeded 200. (highest No. 401 ) Of course the SP No. count also ties up with CMEs etc,  the effects of which extend for several days, so there can be occasions when the count is low but the after effects still active. However I shall concentrate in the future on those periods when the count is low.
73s Laurie.    
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20691 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 08:28:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2001 08:28:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 11945 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 08:27:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 14 May 2001 08:27:55 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zDcF-00020V-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:22:07 +0100 X-Priority: 3 Received: from bob.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zDcE-00020Q-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:22:06 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: by bob.dera.gov.uk; (8.8.8/1.3/10May95) id JAA00139; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:25:38 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 5379 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 09:15:07 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk (172.16.9.10) by baton.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 14 May 2001 09:15:07 -0000 Received: by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk; id JAA15782; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:10:13 GMT Received: from unknown(10.71.64.31) by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk via smap (3.2) id xma015698; Mon, 14 May 01 09:09:48 GMT Received: from FRN-MAIL-3.dera.gov.uk (unverified) by mailguard.dera.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:28:57 +0100 Received: by frn-mail-3.dera.gov.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:21:02 +0100 Message-ID: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C0498@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: "LF Group \(E-mail\)" Subject: LF: FW: LF Forum details Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:21:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Slight correction to details to getting the the Flight Refuelling Club HQ for the LF Forum / Roundtable. (Shows how long it is since I last went there) Andy G4JNT -----Original Message----- From: jfell@crydom.com [mailto:jfell@crydom.com] Sent: 2001-05-14 10:15 To: Talbot Andrew Subject: Re: LF Forum details Just back from holiday and read this.A couple of minor points : 1. There is no Merley Bird Gardens now(it closed a couple of years ago) - may still be a Merley House sign on the roundabout. 2. The sign outside the entrance to the sports field is now showing COBHAM not Flight Refuelling. The restaurant is Les Bouviers and is painted white , the adjacent lane is Merley Park Road (sign posted from the Poole road as ASHINGTON /CORFE MULLEN). Will sort out keys for Sunday during this week - let me know what else you may need. 73 John -- The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s). For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is prohibited and may be unlawful. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15600 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 07:34:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 14 May 2001 07:34:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 18004 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 07:33:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 14 May 2001 07:33:37 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zClj-0001eM-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 08:27:51 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.39]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14zClf-0001eH-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 08:27:47 +0100 Received: from alg.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.80]) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14zCl9-000D2n-0B for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 07:27:15 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3AFF893B.C6A1349@alg.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 08:28:59 +0100 From: "Steve Rawlings" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Fundemental Ground System question References: <006401c0db4d$751a5a80$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Paul W1VLF wrote: > Every now and then it seems neccessary to find several references on > a topic and approach it from a number of "different angles" I agree. When Nick and Mike recently asked about the relationship of current and voltage through/across a loading coil, we were treated to excellent contributions from Andy and from Rik (I'm glad that you sent your contribution, Rik - even if it was an 'oops'!!). > This is the case with all this talk about ground systems, losses > in earth, trees, building, etc. > Can someone point me to a sight where some of this is explained? You could start be reading the article "Build Efficient, Short Vertical Antennas" by Thomas Kuehl AC7A (QST, March 1998, p 39). There you will find the antenna system 'equivalent circuit' which you seek. > Do trees shunt current to earth? There seems to be a million > different values that need to be considered!!! Yes, in a way. The shunt path from our LF antennas to lossy objects such as trees and buildings has an equivalent series resistance - which serves to increase the resistance at the feedpoint, thereby increasing the losses. You can read all about this, and many other LF antenna topics, at the web site of Rik ON7YD. See: http://www.qsl.net/on7yd/136ant.htm > Confused in Connecticut. Anyone else in the same boat? Rather less so, since I joined this Reflector! Regards to all, Steve GW4ALG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18829 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 22:14:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2001 22:14:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 5458 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 22:13:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 13 May 2001 22:13:29 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14z41D-0006M0-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 23:07:15 +0100 Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.81]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14z41C-0006Lv-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 23:07:14 +0100 Received: from [62.7.83.54] (helo=default) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 14z40f-0002oA-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 23:06:42 +0100 Message-ID: <002001c0dbf8$737cb960$3653073e@default> From: "Alan Melia" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: Fundemental Ground System question Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 18:52:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Paul, glad you are getting as much enjoyment as we are out of 136. I think you have put your finger on it, we are having to go back to check our preconceptions. As far as earthing is concerned one of the base papers I have seen is one in the appendix of the RSGBs LF Experimenter's Handbook. The original paper dates back to about 1922, but it does explain some of the somewhat strange results that we have found when extending the top load an using different geometries. It goes some way to explaining why some 'gimicks' dont seem to work in some situations. Keep having fun!! Hope you get a shot at 136kHz soon. Cheers de Alan G3NYK Alan.Melia@btinternet.com -----Original Message----- From: Paul A. Cianciolo To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: 13 May 2001 02:30 Subject: LF: Fundemental Ground System question >Hello Folks, > >I have had the priviledge of being subscribed to this list for about a year >now. >I absolutley enjoy and learned a lot. Thank you. Many times though the >list >will engage topics that I do not understand.... So I hit the books.. Thank >you again! > >Every now and then it seems neccessary to find several references on a topic >and >approach it from a number of "different angles" > >This is the case with all this talk about ground systems, losses in earth, >trees, building, etc. > >Can someone point me to a sight where some of this is explained? > >For instance is a vertical antenna system sort of like a complex circuit of >L, C, and R? >With some of the R being the earth? Some of the C being to ground in series >with this R that is is series >with the L? Isn't there L in the ground path if we put down radials. Is >not there C between those radial and the antenna? And the earth for that >matter. Do trees shunt current to earth? There seems to be a million >different values that need to be considered!!! > >So... I am very confused. I am in the Northeastern US with 3 acres of >property and 130" tower. >Needless to say I am chomping at the bit for 136 Khz to accepted for use >here in the states. > >I realize that these are basic questions but I want to understand. > >There are list members from all over the world subscribed here which is why >I pose the topic to this list. >Many times a RSGB book will explain a topic better/differently than the >say the domestic books. > >Confused in Connecticut. Anyone else in the same boat? > >Thank you > > >Paulc >W1VLF > >Cloudbounce Webpage http://www.qsl.net/w1vlf/ >Rescue Electronic Surplus http://www.rescueelectronics.com > >1982 Vanagon Diesel Turbo Diesel 1.9 >GE Electrak E20 and E15 electric tractors >First place in local tractor pulls at 1750 LBS >With Stock E-20 Electric tractor >Air Rifle Target Shooting Enthusiast > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26138 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 20:50:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2001 20:50:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 8291 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 20:50:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 13 May 2001 20:50:25 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14z2in-0005pZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 21:44:09 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mailout00.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.16]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14z2il-0005pU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 21:44:07 +0100 Received: from fwd00.sul.t-online.de by mailout00.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14z2iP-0005mN-05; Sun, 13 May 2001 22:43:45 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from (0482183881-0001@[217.87.109.40]) by fwd00.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14z2iT-1sJxh2C; Sun, 13 May 2001 22:43:49 +0200 From: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C0491@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> <3AFA2E4C.EBB3C4EF@alg.demon.co.uk> <3.0.1.16.20010510132736.2c87c87a@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> Subject: LF: beacon df6nm/g3aqc X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010008080501070106080906" Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 22:43:49 +0200 Message-ID: <14z2iT-1sJxh2C@fwd00.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0482183881-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010008080501070106080906 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Markus, hi Laurie es all, captured G3AQC es DF6NM agn using SecLab1.65. pic detached. regards Uwe/dj8wx --------------010008080501070106080906 Content-Type: image/gif; name="6NMAQC.GIF" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="6NMAQC.GIF" R0lGODdhIQJZAPcAAAAAAAAAQAAAgAAA/wAgAAAgQAAggAAg/wBAAABAQABAgABA/wBgAABg QABggABg/wCAAACAQACAgACA/wCgAACgQACggACg/wDAAADAQADAgADA/wD/AAD/QAD/gAD/ /yAAACAAQCAAgCAA/yAgACAgQCAggCAg/yBAACBAQCBAgCBA/yBgACBgQCBggCBg/yCAACCA QCCAgCCA/yCgACCgQCCggCCg/yDAACDAQCDAgCDA/yD/ACD/QCD/gCD//0AAAEAAQEAAgEAA 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post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14z2Q3-0005if-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 21:24:47 +0100 Received: from modem-33.durthang.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.162.161] helo=g3aqc) by cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14z2PW-0004Tr-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 21:24:15 +0100 Message-ID: <001201c0dbea$be9463c0$a1a2883e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re Beacon Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 21:24:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hi John,
Many thanks for looking and reports.
Seems there was a Geomagnetic storm warning on 12/05
so will give it a rest for a few days. 73s Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29172 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 20:12:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2001 20:12:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 23046 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 20:11:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 13 May 2001 20:11:53 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14z27T-0005We-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 21:05:35 +0100 Received: from mta5-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.17]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14z27R-0005WZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 21:05:33 +0100 Received: from xtr743187 ([202.27.181.54]) by mta5-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20010513200430.HGMO2165018.mta5-rme.xtra.co.nz@xtr743187> for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 08:04:30 +1200 Message-ID: <001c01c0dbe8$33b0e320$36b51bca@xtr743187> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3.0.1.16.20010510084513.2c6f9b82@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> <004f01c0d9a2$3334c6c0$2cb21bca@rvernall> <002c01c0db96$045db000$fa8274d5@w8k3f0> Subject: LF: Re: Radiation from loading coil causing difference in current at top and bottom? Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 08:05:38 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dick PA0SE and others, Thanks for trying out the dual trace scope method. You did not comment on the phase at the hot end of the coil compared to the cold end. > Bob Vernall wrote: > > Finding out the phase information of interest does need a dual trace > > oscilloscope or a vector voltmeter. > > I followed up Bob's suggestion using a dial trace oscilloscope. snip > Thus as far as can be judged from oscilloscope traces voltage and current > at the bottom end of the coil were in phase. If there is an extra capacitive > current flowing from the coil to surrounding objects it must be too small > to > show up in this way. This is also confirmed by my earlier experiment which > showed that moving the coil upwards and sideways in the shack made > no difference at all in the currents at top and bottom of the coil. The current and voltage at the cold end of the coil can be arranged to be in phase by a certain tuning of inductance. Using the vector currents in my suggestion, when the antenna is tuned for resistive input (the situation Dick reported on) then for input currents I+Q, that particular tuning introduces a current -Q, so the effective current is then I at the cold end of the coil. There is still no information on the possible phase difference between currents at the cold and hot ends. Using a scope probe to do the hot end test needs a very low power test signal, even a signal generator, so as to not exceed the voltage rating of the probe. I can give this warning, as I fried a nice 10:1 probe when I forgot to remove it after QRP testing, and it also fried the input attenuator to the scope :o( Using the idea of I+Q current going into the cold end of the coil, I suggest there are two tuning conditions of interest: - when the antenna is tuned for maximum current out the hot end (into the antenna wire), for maximum radiation, then the condition at the cold end is not purely resistive - when the loading coil is tuned so the current at the cold end is resistive, the radiation current (hot end) may not be peaked. > So my conclusion is that the difference in current must be due to radiation > from the coil. The late Klaas Spaargaren, PA0KSB, once told me that in > an article on mobile antennas it was stated that a coil of L metre length > produced a radiation equal to a straight wire of that same length. I am not in disagreement with that, for an unshielded coil (as they generally are for mobile whips). If the coil was in a shielded enclosure then it does not have a far field to consider, so could not be allocated an effective height component. For unshielded loading coils, the height of the coil should be included in the overall antenna system. For a top loaded vertical, the difference in current from ground level to the node where top loading is (horizontally) connected, the reduction in current with height is far less than for a pure vertical (with no top loading), however I agree that it is some value and contributes to the observation that less current comes out the hot end than goes in the cold end. However, I believe there is additionally an I+Q situation as the stray capacitance to ground for a loading coil is far more than when the coil is substituted by a straight wire for considering the radiation current distribution. 73, Bob ZL2CA From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26076 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 18:59:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2001 18:59:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 28857 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 18:59:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 13 May 2001 18:59:12 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14z114-00055D-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 19:54:54 +0100 Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14z113-000558-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 19:54:53 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.9.75]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 15:53:21 -0300 Message-ID: <3AFF1157.8FE5B7CE@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 18:57:28 -0400 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re. Beacon References: <000c01c0db28$19838b80$b888883e@g3aqc> Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hi Laurie saw nil last night or night before 73 de John VE1ZJ

Laurie Mayhead wrote:

Running tonight. 73s Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24563 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 18:58:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2001 18:58:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 28502 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 18:58:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 13 May 2001 18:58:00 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14z0yl-000503-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 19:52:31 +0100 Received: from lepidachrosite.lion-access.net ([212.19.217.3]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14z0yj-0004zy-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 19:52:30 +0100 Received: from w8k3f0 (1Cust241.tnt10.rtm1.nl.uu.net [213.116.114.241]) by lepidachrosite.lion-access.net (I-Lab) with SMTP id 8CF36CB2E0 for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 18:51:06 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <000801c0dbde$34fb9720$f17274d5@w8k3f0> From: "Dick Rollema" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000601c0dbb8$bc424920$1a8c01d4@g4jnt> Subject: LF: Re: Re: Radiation from loading coil causing difference in current at top and bottom? Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 20:54:11 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: To All from PA0SE Andy, G4JNT wrote: > But these harmonic currents will upset your readings somewhat - where on a > scope trace is the RMS value of > a) the total waveform and > b) the fundamental ? > > The harmonic currents will obviously be out of phase with the harmonic > voltage, and cannot exit the top of the coil so if they are indeed entering > the coil base they must be completing their loop in the fields from the coil > itself - the quadrature, non dissipative, H or E fields. Very little > radiation field will be generated from such a small radiating element, even > at harmonic frequencies. The current into the coil, displayed as the voltage over the resistor in series with the coil, looked like a pure sinewave. So the harmonics were only present in the transmitter output VOLTAGE, not in the current into the coil. 73, Dick, PA0SE > >The output voltage of the TX was somewhat distorted due to harmonics, > >showing up as some ripple at the positive and negative peaks of the > >trace but the zero crossings were at exactly the same points as the > voltage > >over the resistor. > >Thus as far as can be judged from oscilloscope traces voltage and current > >at the bottom end of the coil were in phase. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29456 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 14:43:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2001 14:43:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 3540 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 14:43:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 13 May 2001 14:43:12 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ywzM-0003Kn-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 15:36:52 +0100 Received: from smtp-1.visp.telinco.net ([212.1.130.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ywzL-0003Ki-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 15:36:51 +0100 Received: from [212.1.140.26] (helo=g4jnt) by smtp-1.visp.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 14ywsL-0002Ch-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 15:29:38 +0100 Message-ID: <001701c0dbb9$d035e6c0$1a8c01d4@g4jnt> From: "Andrew Talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Measurement of antenna current Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 15:34:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: You've made me think about it a lot more now. The AC/DC resistance argument is certainly valid. It does indeed mean that any capacitive field will be captured with less loss than letting it end up in lossy ground, or it would if the sheet covered the area captured by the E field due to the WHOLE antenna. However, just concentrating on the loading coil, which has a huge H field and very low E component is a different matter. What is the loss due to the H travelling through ground of poor conductivity ? - not too much I would estimate More thought required.............. Andy G4JNT >I thought it means that the current density over the thickness of the foil >is almost uniform with result that AC and DC resistance are almost equal. >But even with the thin foil that resistance will be so much smaller than the >resistance via the real earth that I expect almost all capacitive current >from the coil is captured by the foil. >Am I wrong? > >73, Dick, PA0SE > > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18754 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 14:34:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2001 14:34:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 16023 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 14:33:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 13 May 2001 14:33:54 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ywps-0003Jz-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 15:27:04 +0100 Received: from smtp-1.visp.telinco.net ([212.1.130.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ywpq-0003Ju-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 15:27:03 +0100 Received: from [212.1.140.26] (helo=g4jnt) by smtp-1.visp.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 14ywks-0008P9-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 15:21:55 +0100 Message-ID: <000601c0dbb8$bc424920$1a8c01d4@g4jnt> From: "Andrew Talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: Radiation from loading coil causing difference in current at top and bottom? Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 15:26:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: But these harmonic currents will upset your readings somewhat - where on a scope trace is the RMS value of a) the total waveform and b) the fundamental ? The harmonic currents will obviously be out of phase with the harmonic voltage, and cannot exit the top of the coil so if they are indeed entering the coil base they must be completing their loop in the fields from the coil itself - the quadrature, non dissipative, H or E fields. Very little radiation field will be generated from such a small radiating element, even at harmonic frequencies. There is nothing special about the coils we use on LF - (except the amount of mystery they seem to generate) Andy G4JNT >The output voltage of the TX was somewhat distorted due to harmonics, >showing up as some ripple at the positive and negative peaks of the >trace but the zero crossings were at exactly the same points as the voltage >over the resistor. >Thus as far as can be judged from oscilloscope traces voltage and current >at the bottom end of the coil >Perhaps the statement in the article is not true, or not applicable for the >sort of coils we >use on LF? >Could that explain the succes of the helical antenna? From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25501 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 11:39:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2001 11:39:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 4426 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 11:39:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 13 May 2001 11:39:00 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yu7n-0002AA-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 12:33:23 +0100 Received: from rubellite.lion-access.net ([212.19.217.4]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yu7m-0002A5-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 12:33:22 +0100 Received: from w8k3f0 (1Cust238.tnt29.rtm1.nl.uu.net [213.116.152.238]) by rubellite.lion-access.net (I-Lab) with SMTP id 4738C2D69 for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 11:32:28 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <000c01c0dba0$dc6daf40$ee9874d5@w8k3f0> From: "Dick Rollema" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000801c0db1d$56d4e020$1a9901d4@g4jnt> Subject: Re: LF: Measurement of antenna current Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 13:35:08 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: To All from PA0SE Andy, G4JNT, wrote as a comment on GW4ALG's experiment using aluminum kitchen foil as a grouind screen under his loading coil: > Aluminium kitchen foil is much thinner than the skin depth at these > frequencies, so you are getting nowhere near the full screening effect. It that so? I thought it means that the current density over the thickness of the foil is almost uniform with result that AC and DC resistance are almost equal. But even with the thin foil that resistance will be so much smaller than the resistance via the real earth that I expect almost all capacitive current from the coil is captured by the foil. Am I wrong? 73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13777 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 10:32:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO guinness.servers.plus.net) (212.159.3.230) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2001 10:32:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 26683 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 10:18:56 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (212.172.148.70) by mx.last.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2001 10:18:56 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yt06-0001fV-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 11:21:22 +0100 Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr ([213.228.0.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yt05-0001fQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 11:21:21 +0100 Received: from f5maf (nas-cbv-1-6-41.dial.proxad.net [213.228.6.41]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 9C1D2C19D for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 12:20:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <004101c0db96$745552a0$2906e4d5@f5maf> From: "f5maf" To: "VLF Group" Subject: LF: Carrier on 136.8 Khz Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 12:21:19 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All, Since 9:00 I m receiving a carrier unmodulated on 136.8 KHz with a good signal : S8. Any one receive it? 73 Marc F5MAF From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 446 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 10:27:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2001 10:27:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 15983 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 10:26:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 13 May 2001 10:26:51 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ysui-0001es-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 11:15:48 +0100 Received: from lepidachrosite.lion-access.net ([212.19.217.3]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ysuh-0001en-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 11:15:47 +0100 Received: from w8k3f0 (1Cust250.tnt18.rtm1.nl.uu.net [213.116.130.250]) by lepidachrosite.lion-access.net (I-Lab) with SMTP id 33D8CCB27B for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 10:14:23 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <002c01c0db96$045db000$fa8274d5@w8k3f0> From: "Dick Rollema" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3.0.1.16.20010510084513.2c6f9b82@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> <004f01c0d9a2$3334c6c0$2cb21bca@rvernall> Subject: LF: Radiation from loading coil causing difference in current at top and bottom? Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 12:00:57 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: To All from PA0SE Bob Vernall wrote: > Further to the item I have recently sent, > > I have since realised that the suggestion of observing two ammeters may not > show different peaking conditions, as the reactive current in the stray > capacitance (current Q) may not vary much over the band of testing, whereas > the radiating current (current I) will rise sharply and have a resonant > "nose" (for any decent high Q antenna). This observation of currents I and > I+Q are likely to show the same tracking across resonance. > > Finding out the phase information of interest does need a dual trace > oscilloscope or a vector voltmeter. I followed up Bob's suggestion using a dial trace oscilloscope. My transmitter normally is connected to a tap on the loading coil and I felt this might confuse the issue. So I connected the coax from the TX to the bottom end of the coil and the shield of the cable via a resistor of 0.78 ohms (actually three 2.5 ohm resistors in parallel) to the earth wire. So the dual trace scope displayed the earth current as voltage over the resistor on one trace and the output voltage of the TX as the other one. To make sure that no current could escape via the mains I inserted a choke in the mains cord to scope and TX.. The total resistance of the aerial system is only 30 ohms (lucky me, living in a country with my feet almost in the water ...) so the TX was not properly matched and the aerial current was lower than before. I measured 1.6A flowing into the aerial and 1.8A in the earth lead. The latter value was read from a thermo couple meter and confirmed by the voltage of 2V peak over the 0.78 ohm resistor. The output voltage of the TX was somewhat distorted due to harmonics, showing up as some ripple at the positive and negative peaks of the trace but the zero crossings were at exactly the same points as the voltage over the resistor. Thus as far as can be judged from oscilloscope traces voltage and current at the bottom end of the coil were in phase. If there is an extra capacitive current flowing from the coil to surrounding objects it must be too small to show up in this way. This is also confirmed by my earlier experiment which showed that moving the coil upwards and sideways in the shack made no difference at all in the currents at top and bottom of the coil. So my conclusion is that the difference in current must be due to radiation from the coil. The late Klaas Spaargaren, PA0KSB, once told me that in an article on mobile antennas it was stated that a coil of L metre length produced a radiation equal to a straight wire of that same length. As reported before that would in my case produce a current difference of only 1.55%, as shown by computer modelling; much less than the measured difference. Perhaps the statement in the article is not true, or not applicable for the sort of coils we use on LF? Could that explain the succes of the helical antenna? 73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11556 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 06:38:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2001 06:38:30 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: (qmail 28698 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 06:37:59 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 13 May 2001 06:37:59 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ypOV-0000Bk-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 07:30:19 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ypOU-0000Bf-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 07:30:18 +0100 Received: from telemetry.demon.co.uk ([194.222.19.114]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14ypNw-0003qw-0W for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 07:29:46 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 07:28:41 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Tom Boucher" Subject: LF: Current in Loading Coil MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Trial Version 3.05 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Group Just to report my findings of no measurable difference in antenna current when moving ammeter from hot to cold end of loading coil. Reads about 3.8 amps with 600 watts or so. Anyone need a lift from East Devon to Wimborne next Sunday? Will travel up the A35 from Honiton. 73, Tom G3OLB From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8633 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 04:01:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2001 04:01:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 4765 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 04:01:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 13 May 2001 04:01:17 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ymzf-0007im-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 04:56:31 +0100 Received: from neptune.imagenisp.com ([204.244.138.19]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ymze-0007ih-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 04:56:30 +0100 Received: from jsm (gi84.imagenisp.com [204.244.17.111]) by neptune.imagenisp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id K4AFSBB4; Sat, 12 May 2001 20:56:10 -0700 Message-ID: <001001c0db60$e7a88be0$6f11f4cc@jsm> From: "Steve McDonald" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3AD05D0D.D37FBF9F@usa.net> <000e01c0d63c$560dca20$6211f4cc@jsm> <000a01c0dae4$182747c0$aa6068d5@oemcomputer> Subject: LF: Re: VA3LK hrd report Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 20:57:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Yes Mike...I am looking forward to the next winter's DX season. By then I should have a 10' dia. air core loop pointed in your direction. BTW, condx were very poor the night I did see Larry's signal so under normal or enhanced condx there will be a large improvement. My present rx antenna is a squashed-up 3' diameter active loop (shielded)...certainly far less than optimum so the reception was very encouraging. Steve / VE7SL / CN 88 / Mayne Island, BC > > Condx poor last night but initial attempt to hear Larry's ZL sked was > > encouraging. > > > > Distance is about 2200 miles. > > > > Steve / VE7SL / CN88 Mayne Island, B.C. > > This report seems to have been largely ignored but is significant for three > reasons: > > It was over 3500km, Steve is the furthest westerly station QRV and the path > was all over land. > > Steve is 7300km from England, and the best 136kHz DX so far is 6380km > (M0BMU>W4DEX) which is not too far off. Of course, the path is closer to the > Pole and involves more land, so is likely to be more difficult. > > Congratulations to both Steve and Larry. > > By the way, I looked up Mayne Island on the web > (http://www.mayneisland.com/where.html). It is in the far SW corner of > Canada and looks a really beautiful place. > > 73 > > Mike, G3XDV > http://www.lf.thersgb.net > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25494 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 01:34:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 13 May 2001 01:34:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 21329 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 01:34:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 13 May 2001 01:34:22 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ykcv-0006eY-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 02:24:53 +0100 Received: from smtp.snet.net ([204.60.6.55]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ykcu-0006eT-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 02:24:52 +0100 Received: from pop.snet.net (pop.snet.net [204.60.6.9]) by smtp.snet.net (8.11.1/8.11.1/SNET-mx-1.4/D-1.10/O-1.7) with ESMTP id f4D1OFL08126 for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 21:24:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mainc (177.202.252.64.snet.net [64.252.202.177]) by pop.snet.net (8.11.1/8.11.1/SNET-pop-1.5/D-1.8/O-1.6) with SMTP id f4D1OET24702 for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 21:24:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <006401c0db4d$751a5a80$0100a8c0@mshome.net> From: "Paul A. Cianciolo" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Fundemental Ground System question Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 21:38:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello Folks, I have had the priviledge of being subscribed to this list for about a year now. I absolutley enjoy and learned a lot. Thank you. Many times though the list will engage topics that I do not understand.... So I hit the books.. Thank you again! Every now and then it seems neccessary to find several references on a topic and approach it from a number of "different angles" This is the case with all this talk about ground systems, losses in earth, trees, building, etc. Can someone point me to a sight where some of this is explained? For instance is a vertical antenna system sort of like a complex circuit of L, C, and R? With some of the R being the earth? Some of the C being to ground in series with this R that is is series with the L? Isn't there L in the ground path if we put down radials. Is not there C between those radial and the antenna? And the earth for that matter. Do trees shunt current to earth? There seems to be a million different values that need to be considered!!! So... I am very confused. I am in the Northeastern US with 3 acres of property and 130" tower. Needless to say I am chomping at the bit for 136 Khz to accepted for use here in the states. I realize that these are basic questions but I want to understand. There are list members from all over the world subscribed here which is why I pose the topic to this list. Many times a RSGB book will explain a topic better/differently than the say the domestic books. Confused in Connecticut. Anyone else in the same boat? Thank you Paulc W1VLF Cloudbounce Webpage http://www.qsl.net/w1vlf/ Rescue Electronic Surplus http://www.rescueelectronics.com 1982 Vanagon Diesel Turbo Diesel 1.9 GE Electrak E20 and E15 electric tractors First place in local tractor pulls at 1750 LBS With Stock E-20 Electric tractor Air Rifle Target Shooting Enthusiast From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27377 invoked from network); 12 May 2001 22:17:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2001 22:17:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 7173 invoked from network); 12 May 2001 22:17:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 12 May 2001 22:17:26 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yhbg-0005KX-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 23:11:24 +0100 Received: from mail11.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.193.23]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yhbf-0005KS-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 23:11:23 +0100 Received: from modem-56.beleg.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.136.184] helo=g3aqc) by mail11.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14yhb8-0004Rg-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 23:10:50 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c0db28$19838b80$b888883e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. Beacon Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 22:10:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Running tonight. 73s Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5022 invoked from network); 12 May 2001 21:14:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2001 21:14:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 10976 invoked from network); 12 May 2001 21:14:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 12 May 2001 21:14:22 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ygcB-0004qz-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 22:07:51 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.91]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ygcA-0004qu-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 22:07:50 +0100 Received: from alg.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.80]) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14ygbd-0002PE-0X for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 22:07:18 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3AFDA68D.13370A2A@alg.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 22:09:33 +0100 From: "Steve Rawlings" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Measurement of antenna current References: <000801c0db1d$56d4e020$1a9901d4@g4jnt> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Andy G4JNT wrote: > Aluminium kitchen foil is much thinner than the skin depth at these > frequencies, so you are getting nowhere near the full screening effect. Many thanks for another clear description of what's actually going on - this time in relation to LF screening. Another precious Email, now added to my growing reference library :-) I'll repeat the tests with aluminium sheet - just as soon as I find some - and report back with the results. By the way, it was nice to work John G3CCH (RST 449) earlier today - the first time I've heard him in several weeks. PI4OSS was 579 a few minutes ago - but no QSO was possible using my 12 m vertical. Regards to all, Steve GW4ALG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25708 invoked from network); 12 May 2001 20:19:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2001 20:19:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 6964 invoked from network); 12 May 2001 20:18:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 12 May 2001 20:18:40 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yfhq-0004Ws-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 21:09:38 +0100 Received: from smtp-1.visp.telinco.net ([212.1.130.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yfhp-0004Wn-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 21:09:37 +0100 Received: from [212.1.156.192] (helo=g4jnt) by smtp-1.visp.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 14yfaT-0002Ak-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 21:02:01 +0100 Message-ID: <000e01c0db1f$11486480$c09c01d4@g4jnt> From: "Andrew Talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Measurement of antenna current Correction Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 21:06:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >I measured the thinkness of some (Sainsbury's own brand) foil at 0.03mm. >This equates to 0.13 skin depths. It is even worse. I read the micrometer wrong, a very ancient one calibrated in those US units of 25.4mm called inches, (cost nothing so I live with it) The kitchen foil is 0.02mm thickness, so 0.09 skin depths Current penetration EXP(-0.09) = 0.91 so only 9 percent screening at 137kHz Andy 'JNT From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10656 invoked from network); 12 May 2001 20:06:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2001 20:06:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 14529 invoked from network); 12 May 2001 20:05:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 12 May 2001 20:05:35 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yfUV-0004Pj-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 20:55:51 +0100 Received: from smtp-1.visp.telinco.net ([212.1.130.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yfUU-0004Pe-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 20:55:50 +0100 Received: from [212.1.153.26] (helo=g4jnt) by smtp-1.visp.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 14yfOU-00035A-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 20:49:39 +0100 Message-ID: <000801c0db1d$56d4e020$1a9901d4@g4jnt> From: "Andrew Talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Measurement of antenna current Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 20:53:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Steve and group Aluminium kitchen foil is much thinner than the skin depth at these frequencies, so you are getting nowhere near the full screening effect. Skin depth is given by 503.SQRT(Rho / Freq) where Rho is the resistivity in Ohm metres, 2.7E-8 for Aluminium, and Freq in Hz So the skin depth at 137kHz is 0.22mm. I measured the thinkness of some (Sainsbury's own brand) foil at 0.03mm. This equates to 0.13 skin depths. The skin depth is defined as the point where the current penetration has fallen to 1/e or 37% of its surface value [ EXP(-1) ] , so in this foil the field is only reduced by a factor of EXP (-0.13) = 0.87. Therefore only 13% screening. You would get a more significamnt effect by using sheet aluminium , or several layers of Al foil. I wouldn't have thought it was necessary to use such a large area either. All you are really trying to do is prevent penetration of the fields from the coil into lossy ground (skin depth many metres|), so a diameter not much more than twice the coil radius would probably do. Andy G4JNT -----Original Message----- From: Steve Rawlings >I then moved the loading coil to one side, and put down two >strips >of aluminium foil, each measuring 450 mm x 1600 mm. I left a >gap of 30 mm between the strips, so the overall area covered >measured 930 mm x 1600 mm. Four lengths of timber were then >placed along the edges of the aluminium foil to hold it From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8809 invoked from network); 12 May 2001 15:54:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2001 15:54:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 24700 invoked from network); 12 May 2001 15:54:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 12 May 2001 15:54:26 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ybZq-0002lv-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 16:45:06 +0100 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.38]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ybZp-0002lq-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 16:45:05 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from alg.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.80]) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14ybZI-0002Gc-0A for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 15:44:33 +0000 Message-ID: <3AFD5932.9238FECE@alg.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 16:39:30 +0100 From: "Steve Rawlings" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "LF Group" Subject: Re: LF: Measurement of antenna current Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All, Well, it's been drier in Chepstow this week, and we're having a gloriously sunny day today. So I've been doing some more antenna current measurements this afternoon. (If you're getting bored with this topic, I suggest that you delete this message now!) Today's test was intended to find out whether having aluminium foil under my loading coil makes any difference to the antenna current. For references purposes, my loading coil was set up in its usual place (no aluminium sheet): 1700 mm from the back wall of the house, and raised 400 mm above the patio. The current at the cold end of the loading coil was 2.0 A (0.2 A less than last weekend), and the current at the hot end was 1.8 A (same antenna current as last weekend). I then moved the loading coil to one side, and put down two strips of aluminium foil, each measuring 450 mm x 1600 mm. I left a gap of 30 mm between the strips, so the overall area covered measured 930 mm x 1600 mm. Four lengths of timber were then placed along the edges of the aluminium foil to hold it in position. I then replaced the loading coil in its original position, at the centre of the screened area, and 1700 mm from the wall, 400 mm above the aluminium. The wall end of both aluminium strips was then connected to antenna ground (leaving the far ends of each strip open circuit). For a picture of the set-up (taken from an upstairs room), see: http://www.alg.demon.co.uk/radio/136/pictures/screen_coil.jpg With the aluminium foil in position, the current at the cold end was 2.0 A, the current at the hot end was 1.8 A. (Interestingly, the use of the aluminium foil appeared to have no significant affect upon system resonance.) To recap from last week, I found no significant difference in the antenna current (1.8 A) - whether excess turns at the hot end of the coil were: - left connected, but open circuit; - left connected, but shorted; - disconnected from main winding; or, - physically removed from the coil former. This weekend, I found that the use of grounded aluminium foil under my loading coil made no significant difference to the antenna current. Also with, or without the aluminium foil, the current into the cold end of my loading coil this weekend is 0.2 A less than last weekend (was 2.2 A), while the antenna current remained the same (1.8 A). (A possible effect of the drier weather conditions?) By the way, I heard good signals at around 10:13 UT this morning from DF6NM (RST 539) and F6BWO (559). Regards to all, Steve GW4ALG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4938 invoked from network); 12 May 2001 15:34:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2001 15:34:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 17173 invoked from network); 12 May 2001 15:33:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 12 May 2001 15:33:54 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ybFk-0002fO-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 16:24:20 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ybFj-0002fJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 16:24:19 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 14ybF8-0001dI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 16:23:42 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from [147.197.130.252] (helo=mj9ar) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 14ybF8-00022J-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 16:23:42 +0100 From: "James Moritz" Organization: University of Hertfordshire To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 16:24:16 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: LF: Re: VA3LK hrd report X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Message-ID: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF Group, Looking at a great circle map, The differences in the path to VE7SL don't seem to be that great compared to those already achieved. However, at this time of year, I guess there can only be a short period, if any, when the whole of the path is in darkness, so perhaps propagation from the UK would not be very good. Still, one to try next winter! Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 99 invoked from network); 12 May 2001 13:13:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 12 May 2001 13:13:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 11063 invoked from network); 12 May 2001 13:13:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 12 May 2001 13:13:13 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yZ4v-0001i8-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 14:05:01 +0100 Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.41]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yZ4t-0001i3-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 14:05:00 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.104.96.170]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with SMTP id <20010512130428.EQFM283.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 14:04:28 +0100 Message-ID: <000a01c0dae4$182747c0$aa6068d5@oemcomputer> From: "mike.dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3AD05D0D.D37FBF9F@usa.net> <000e01c0d63c$560dca20$6211f4cc@jsm> Subject: LF: Re: VA3LK hrd report Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 14:04:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > Condx poor last night but initial attempt to hear Larry's ZL sked was > encouraging. > > Distance is about 2200 miles. > > Steve / VE7SL / CN88 Mayne Island, B.C. This report seems to have been largely ignored but is significant for three reasons: It was over 3500km, Steve is the furthest westerly station QRV and the path was all over land. Steve is 7300km from England, and the best 136kHz DX so far is 6380km (M0BMU>W4DEX) which is not too far off. Of course, the path is closer to the Pole and involves more land, so is likely to be more difficult. Congratulations to both Steve and Larry. By the way, I looked up Mayne Island on the web (http://www.mayneisland.com/where.html). It is in the far SW corner of Canada and looks a really beautiful place. 73 Mike, G3XDV http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23510 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 17:18:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 11 May 2001 17:18:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 26178 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 17:18:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 11 May 2001 17:18:07 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yGH1-0001yE-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 18:00:15 +0100 Received: from fortune-rwcmta.excite.com ([198.3.99.203] helo=fortune.excite.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yGH0-0001xk-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 18:00:14 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from neon.excite.com ([199.172.153.87]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20010511165906.UCWD10124.fortune.excite.com@neon.excite.com> for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 09:59:06 -0700 Message-ID: <26319357.989600346236.JavaMail.imail@neon.excite.com> Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:58:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "john sexton" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Loading coil siting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 62.253.64.5 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Guys, I moved my loading coil yesterday and the ground loss dropped from 103 ohms to 91 ohms. That is 12 ohms removed at a stroke! Previously it had stood in a corner of the patio by a wooden open lattice fence and adjacent to an earth bank. It is now in the middle of a flat space about 4 metres square on grass but raised about 30 cms. So it is worth trying different positions and keeping it in the clear really does make a difference. Whether my signal will be any better is another matter. 73, John, G4CNN _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16118 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 15:20:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 11 May 2001 15:20:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 22944 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 15:20:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 11 May 2001 15:20:18 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yEWV-00019O-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 16:08:07 +0100 Received: from cobalt4.source.net ([206.100.10.38]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yEWK-000186-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 16:07:57 +0100 Received: from parissn2 (AMontsouris-101-1-2-155.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.39.155]) by cobalt4.source.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA13694; Fri, 11 May 2001 08:07:17 -0700 Message-ID: <001d01c0da2c$275cc020$0700000a@parissn2> From: "Stewart Nelson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, "LowFerQTH" Subject: LF: New WOLF released Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:07:51 +0200 Organization: SC Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, Brian CT1DRP kindly mailed me a CD-R with many recordings of Jim M0BMU's WOLF signals, some of which could be decoded and some not. In the course of playing with them, I added many diagnostic features to report on signal quality, stability, sample rate accuracy, etc. Unfortunately, attempts to improve actual performance were only somewhat successful: one of four previously unreadable files now shows good copy, and one shows partial copy. You can find version 0.61 at http://www.scgroup.com/ham/wolf.html , see the "new features" section for documentation. Let me know of bugs or inadequate explanation. 73, Stewart KK7KA From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24354 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 14:17:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 11 May 2001 14:17:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 1346 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 14:16:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 11 May 2001 14:16:55 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yDJ1-0000Vy-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 14:50:07 +0100 Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yDIs-0000Vh-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 14:49:58 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.80.1]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 10:48:36 -0300 Message-ID: <3AFBA7D8.86C446A0@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 01:50:33 -0700 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re. lf tests References: <000e01c0da09$2ebbe300$5a26893e@g3aqc> Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit OK Laurie I'll be there 73 de John VE1ZJ

Laurie Mayhead wrote:

Thanks John,We had 90 mins of good copy ! so  things are not impossible even in summer conditions. I will run again tonight and if you can spare the time lets see if this was just a fluke or wether it can be repeated. 73s Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15689 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 13:50:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 11 May 2001 13:50:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 9652 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 13:49:46 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 11 May 2001 13:49:46 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yD2e-0000P2-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 14:33:12 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yD2a-0000Ot-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 14:33:08 +0100 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id PAA303178 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 15:32:27 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20010511143329.21ffb3e6@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> X-Sender: pb623250@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 14:33:29 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: Re: LF: harmonics / LF antenna In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.20010511091053.009224e0@pop.netspace.net.au> References: <3.0.1.16.20010510132736.2c87c87a@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> <004401c0d92c$0f19a060$af6e74d5@w8k3f0> <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C0491@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> <3AFA2E4C.EBB3C4EF@alg.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Ric, In my calculations I assumed a perfect (capacitance free) coil. I found out that my 4.5mH loading coil has a self resonance just above 700kHz, so upward from there the reactance will drop rapidly (and will become capacitive). So it is very likely that a LF antenna can radiate very efficient on particular frequencies above 1MHz. It might not be a bad idea to have the harmonic radiation checked by another ham living 10-20km away. 73, Rik ON7YD At 09:10 11/05/01 +1000, you wrote: >G'day, > >Robert, AX2TAR, tried his switch mode LF transmitter without a low pass >filter. His 3rd harmonic was just visible on Argo, but his 19th harmonic >at about 3.3MHz was S9 here about 10km away. > >The 19th harmonic was probably where his wire was a halfwave long and >excited via the stray capacitance across his loading coil. > > > >73, Ric, VK7RO > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15592 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 12:05:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 11 May 2001 12:05:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 17659 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 12:05:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 11 May 2001 12:05:01 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yBYF-0008GZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 12:57:43 +0100 Received: from cmailg7.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.195.177]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14yBYA-0008GU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 12:57:38 +0100 Received: from modem-90.longnose-hawk.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.38.90] helo=g3aqc) by cmailg7.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14yBXa-000355-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 12:57:03 +0100 Message-ID: <000e01c0da09$2ebbe300$5a26893e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. lf tests Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 11:56:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Thanks John,
We had 90 mins of good copy ! so  things are not impossible even in summer conditions. I will run again tonight and if you can spare the time lets see if this was just a fluke or wether it can be repeated. 73s Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20769 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 10:18:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 11 May 2001 10:18:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 22054 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 10:17:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 11 May 2001 10:17:46 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14y9nd-0007Sj-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 11:05:29 +0100 Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14y9nZ-0007Se-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 11:05:25 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.88.117]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 07:04:12 -0300 Message-ID: <3AFBF24E.73FC244@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:08:15 -0400 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: lf tests Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Laurie Your sigs came up out of noise at 2345 last night . "O" copy by 0000Z. Began slow fade 0130Z . "T" copy 0142 , and 0215Z. Gone by 0230 73 de John VE1ZJ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28816 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 06:37:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 11 May 2001 06:37:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 17360 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 06:37:02 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 11 May 2001 06:37:02 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14y6Ob-00061S-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 07:27:25 +0100 Received: from fm215.facility.pipex.com ([194.131.104.225]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14y6OL-00061K-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 07:27:11 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from 233.pncl.co.uk (181.235.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.uk [212.35.235.181]) by fm215.facility.pipex.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA15047 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 07:18:43 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010511072400.00a18600@mail.pncl.co.uk> X-Sender: blanch@mail.pncl.co.uk (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:25:26 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Walter Blanchard" Subject: RE: LF: harmonics / LF antenna In-reply-to: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C0496@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov .uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 14:59 10/05/01 Thursday, Andy wrote: >The local Non Directional Beacon here, EAS at Southampton Airport on >391.5kHz, puts out strong odd order harmonics. The fifth harmonic on >1957.5 actually caused QRM once. The third harmonic is masked by a >local broadcast station at my QTH, but would probably be a problem to >listeners nearer the airport. > >Does anyone know the internal design of these NDBs- wouldn't surprise me >if they drive a squarewave to their (what looks to be rather small) >antenna. In which case how do they generate the AM ? Maybe they're still using a T1154 - they were notorious for this problem! Walter G3JKV. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29166 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 01:59:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 11 May 2001 01:59:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 5599 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 01:59:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 11 May 2001 01:59:00 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14y279-0004Bb-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 02:53:07 +0100 Received: from tomts6.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.26] helo=tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14y277-00046a-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 02:53:06 +0100 Received: from server1 ([216.208.85.155]) by tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with SMTP id <20010511015202.LDFX7009.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@server1> for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 21:52:02 -0400 Message-ID: <005901c0d9bc$aed13880$0a00a8c0@ThreeLakes.ca> From: "Larry Kayser" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3.0.1.16.20010510084513.2c6f9b82@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> <004f01c0d9a2$3334c6c0$2cb21bca@rvernall> Subject: LF: Re: And a further correction Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 21:49:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Greetings All: For those with an interest the Canadian LF renewal was issued today for VA3LK and VE1ZZ, The renewal is until 2003 which has an ominous tone to it I regret very much. So we are back in business officially..... Larry VA3LK From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23665 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 23:20:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 23:20:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 19050 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 23:20:00 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 10 May 2001 23:20:00 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xzdI-00036y-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 00:14:08 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from whirlwind.netspace.net.au ([203.10.110.76]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xzdG-00036t-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 00:14:07 +0100 Received: from fred1 (dialup-t1-153.Hobart.netspace.net.au [210.15.196.153]) by whirlwind.netspace.net.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4ANDU063607 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 09:13:31 +1000 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010511091053.009224e0@pop.netspace.net.au> X-Sender: vk7ro@pop.netspace.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:10:53 +1000 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Richard Rogers" Subject: Re: LF: harmonics / LF antenna In-reply-to: <3.0.1.16.20010510132736.2c87c87a@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> References: <004401c0d92c$0f19a060$af6e74d5@w8k3f0> <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C0491@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> <3AFA2E4C.EBB3C4EF@alg.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: G'day, Robert, AX2TAR, tried his switch mode LF transmitter without a low pass filter. His 3rd harmonic was just visible on Argo, but his 19th harmonic at about 3.3MHz was S9 here about 10km away. The 19th harmonic was probably where his wire was a halfwave long and excited via the stray capacitance across his loading coil. 73, Ric, VK7RO From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 142 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 22:50:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 22:50:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 26320 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 22:50:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 10 May 2001 22:50:11 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xz7w-0002oB-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 23:41:44 +0100 Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xz7v-0002o6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 23:41:43 +0100 Received: from rvernall ([202.27.181.42]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20010510224036.XAAO2184114.mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz@rvernall> for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 10:40:36 +1200 Message-ID: <004f01c0d9a2$3334c6c0$2cb21bca@rvernall> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3.0.1.16.20010510084513.2c6f9b82@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> Subject: LF: And a further correction Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:39:32 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Further to the item I have recently sent, I have since realised that the suggestion of observing two ammeters may not show different peaking conditions, as the reactive current in the stray capacitance (current Q) may not vary much over the band of testing, whereas the radiating current (current I) will rise sharply and have a resonant "nose" (for any decent high Q antenna). This observation of currents I and I+Q are likely to show the same tracking across resonance. Finding out the phase information of interest does need a dual trace oscilloscope or a vector voltmeter. 73, Bob From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5936 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 22:40:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 22:40:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 28893 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 08:27:46 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 10 May 2001 08:27:46 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xled-0004up-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 09:18:35 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xlea-0004uk-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 09:18:32 +0100 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA89494 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 10:17:57 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20010510091900.089784a6@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> X-Sender: pb623250@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 09:19:00 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: LF: oops In-reply-to: <3.0.1.16.20010510084513.2c6f9b82@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: My previous mail (about the current in a loadingcoil) was typed yesterday but remained in the 'TX que' of my PC until this morning. Meanwhile Andy had sent a similar (and more extensive) mail. Sorry for that. 73, Rik From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24914 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 22:39:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 22:39:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 18879 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 07:51:32 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 10 May 2001 07:51:32 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xl7u-0004g4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 08:44:46 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xl7r-0004fz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 08:44:43 +0100 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id JAA1244006 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 09:44:10 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20010510084513.2c6f9b82@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> X-Sender: pb623250@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 08:45:13 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: Re: LF: Antenna Current In-reply-to: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >If the voltage on the output of the coil is higher than that on the input then >(for constant power) the current must be less. > >Nick >G4WHO Hi Nick, That would be through for DC, where P = U x I For AC however it is P = U x I x cos(A), where A is the phase angle between U and I. Eg. : Assume you have an antenna with a capacitance of 300pF and a system loss of 50 Ohm. To bring the 300pF to resonance at 137kHz by putting a 4.5mH loadingcoil in series. The reactance of the loadingcoil will be about 3.9 kOhm. Next assume you run the antenna with a 200W TX, so the TX output voltage (= voltage at the 'cold end' of the loading coil) will be 100V and the current at the 'cold end' of the coil will be 2A (U and I are in phase). Further assume that you have built a 'perfect' (lossless and non-radiating) coil, then the current at the 'hot end' of the coil would still be 2A (where would any current 'escape' ?) and the voltage would be about 7.9kV (7.8kV built up over the coil + 0.1kV at the 'cold end'. Since you are right with you constant power statement (at least for or perfect coil), the power at the 'hot end' is still 200W. In order to have a power of 200W with 7.9kV and 2A the phaseshift between U and I must be 89.3 degrees. 73, Rik From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1356 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 22:33:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 22:33:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 7416 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 22:32:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 10 May 2001 22:32:34 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xysN-0002hO-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 23:25:39 +0100 Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xysM-0002hJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 23:25:38 +0100 Received: from rvernall ([202.27.178.68]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20010510222432.WTCS2184114.mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz@rvernall> for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 10:24:32 +1200 Message-ID: <004301c0d99f$f42a1540$2cb21bca@rvernall> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3.0.1.16.20010510084513.2c6f9b82@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> Subject: Re: LF: Antenna Current Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:23:25 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all following this theme, I have thought of a further test to explore phase differences of current into the cold end of the loading coil and current making it out the hot end. With two RF ammeters, one bottom and one top, observe if current peaking tracks near resonance or whether peaks are a little apart, as the antenna is tuned across resonance (either by variometer or frequency change of the transmitter). If the bottom current is comprised of I and Q components, then the matching will not be purely resistive SWR when the current out the top is peaked. I currently have a lack of facilities to do tests with two ammeters on my LF antenna, so I apologise for putting up suggestions for possible tests but not substantiating with practical measurements of my own. With the monitoring I do have, which is a current transformer partly up the loading coil (I have four series inductors to make up my loading), an L match at the "cold" end to give close to 50 ohms, and a good SWR meter in the 50 ohm line from the transmitter, I can say that I never get maximum RF current concurring with minimum SWR, but they are offset a little. This observation supports the supposition that when the radiating current (current out the top of the loading coil) is peaked, there is also a reactive current going in to the bottom of the coil to "feed" stray capacitance to ground, so the impedance "seen" at the cold end can not be purely resistive. If the variometer is adjusted for minimum SWR, what that is doing is providing a small amount of inductive reactance to make the input appear resistive (and 50 ohms because of my L match) but doing this actually reduces the radiating current by a small amount. So these observations support the supposition that a current I+Q goes in the cold end of the loading coil, and I comes out the hot end. Another point is where to put an RF ammeter to use for tuning for maximum radiation: it would seem to be far better in the "up wire" at the "hot" end of the loading coil, as radiating current is what facilitates QSOs. 73, Bob From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 365 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 22:32:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 22:32:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 17926 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 09:14:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 10 May 2001 09:14:37 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xmLA-0005Fn-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 10:02:32 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from [213.2.16.106] (helo=rsgb.org.uk) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xmL9-0005Fh-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 10:02:31 +0100 Received: from miked by rsgb.org.uk with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.8.7.5.R) for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 09:56:12 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Mike Dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 09:56:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: LF: [Lf] Antenna Message-ID: <3AFA65BA.19599.1F934D@localhost> In-reply-to: <97.150dae0b.282ac6b0@aol.com> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Return-Path: miked@mail Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > >From N8BKR > > The top hat consists of eight 20 foot 1.25 > inch diameter aluminum tubing mounted on two plywood disks. I have tested this > antenna an it works very well. This antenna cost me about $1000.00 to build That's very expensive plywood! Seriously, this type of antenna would be very efficient for its physical size as the coil is high up and the capacity hat is very low loss. However, being small, the ground losses will be high, so it is unlikely to outperform anything that has a higher radiation resistance, such as a T or L with 40m or more of top wires. Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6544 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 22:00:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 22:00:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 9619 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 22:00:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 10 May 2001 22:00:17 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xyOJ-0002T8-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 22:54:35 +0100 Received: from cmailg3.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.195.173]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xyOH-0002T3-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 22:54:33 +0100 Received: from modem-62.arda.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.122.62] helo=g3aqc) by cmailg3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14xyNi-00001V-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 22:53:58 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c0d993$6814fe00$3e7a883e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. Noisy antennas-K9AY Loop Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 21:51:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
I have been using a large EWE  Loop (K9AY is a derivative of EWE) for 18 months and can confirm  Cardioid directional pattern and low noise performance. 73s Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10380 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 21:41:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 21:41:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 23861 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 21:41:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 10 May 2001 21:41:13 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xy4z-0002H5-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 22:34:37 +0100 Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xy4y-0002Gx-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 22:34:36 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.108.217]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 18:33:22 -0300 Message-ID: <3AFB4254.D37BB2B1@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 21:37:24 -0400 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: rx ant Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Mitch VE30t , Nice pictures 73 de John VE1ZJ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25213 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 21:10:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 21:10:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 5845 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 11:09:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 10 May 2001 11:09:11 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xoDy-0006C4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 12:03:14 +0100 Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xoDv-0006Bz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 12:03:11 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.70.12]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 08:01:30 -0300 Message-ID: <3AFAAE3C.1F591935@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:05:32 -0400 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: lf tests Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Laurie saw nil last night. The K index was a 3 and there were soma aurora contacts here on 6 es 2 meter bands 73 de John VE1ZJ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22908 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 21:09:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 21:09:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 24663 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 21:09:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 10 May 2001 21:09:05 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xxY8-0001yK-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 22:00:40 +0100 Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xxY7-0001yF-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 22:00:39 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.6.39]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 17:59:23 -0300 Message-ID: <3AFB3A5D.708A333F@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 21:03:25 -0400 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re. lf tests References: <000201c0d97b$8a429cc0$7427893e@g3aqc> Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit hi laurie I'll be looking for you 73 de John VE1ZJ

Laurie Mayhead wrote:

Hi, John,I didnt manage to fix the fault last night so no beacon. All OK now though, so will run it tonight  73s Laurie..
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27117 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 20:17:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 20:17:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 7688 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 20:16:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 10 May 2001 20:16:38 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xwle-0001kc-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 21:10:34 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from smtp6vepub.gte.net ([206.46.170.27] helo=smtp6ve.mailsrvcs.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xwlc-0001kX-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 21:10:33 +0100 Received: from ieee.org (client-151-200-114-163.bellatlantic.net [151.200.114.163]) by smtp6ve.mailsrvcs.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA19202741; Thu, 10 May 2001 20:14:13 GMT X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3AFAF434.FD4E06FF@ieee.org> Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 16:04:05 -0400 From: "Andre' Kesteloot" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "RSGB-LF" Cc: "Powell VE3OT, Mitch" Subject: LF: [Fwd: Noisy antennas - K9AY-Loops] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Mitch Powell wrote: > Hello all: > While observing the AMRAD beacon ( usual daily check and routine) > I started comparing my new K9AY (KAZ ) antenna with the K0LR/KI0LE > open wire > loop. The results were verrrrrrrry interesting - as I was able to see > a complete signal with one antenna - and lots of noise and > questionable > signal with the other antenna. For a few dollars and a tree limb, this > K9AY is really performing. I have placed pictures of the captured > signal on http://technology.fanshawec.on.ca/eltn225 > and hope they help some of those with noise problems such as I have. > > 73 > Mitch VE3OT From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14218 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 19:12:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 19:12:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 6097 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 19:11:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 10 May 2001 19:11:47 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xviy-0001DM-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 20:03:44 +0100 Received: from cmailg3.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.195.173]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xviu-0001DH-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 20:03:40 +0100 Received: from modem-116.lyre-tailed-anthias.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.39.116] helo=g3aqc) by cmailg3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14xviO-0002Ni-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 20:03:08 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c0d97b$8a429cc0$7427893e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. lf tests Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 19:00:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hi, John,
I didnt manage to fix the fault last night so no beacon. All OK now though, so will run it tonight  73s Laurie..
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23024 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 16:40:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 16:40:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 26499 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 14:16:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 10 May 2001 14:16:04 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xr21-0007Yv-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 15:03:05 +0100 X-Priority: 3 Received: from bob.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xr1x-0007Yq-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 15:03:01 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: by bob.dera.gov.uk; (8.8.8/1.3/10May95) id PAA27937; Thu, 10 May 2001 15:06:26 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 13754 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 14:54:23 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk (172.16.9.10) by baton.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 10 May 2001 14:54:23 -0000 Received: by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk; id OAA23294; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:49:46 GMT Received: from unknown(10.71.64.31) by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk via smap (3.2) id xma023012; Thu, 10 May 01 14:48:55 GMT Received: from FRN-MAIL-3.dera.gov.uk (unverified) by mailguard.dera.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 15:07:26 +0100 Received: by frn-mail-3.dera.gov.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:59:39 +0100 Message-ID: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C0496@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: harmonics / LF antenna Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:59:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: The local Non Directional Beacon here, EAS at Southampton Airport on 391.5kHz, puts out strong odd order harmonics. The fifth harmonic on 1957.5 actually caused QRM once. The third harmonic is masked by a local broadcast station at my QTH, but would probably be a problem to listeners nearer the airport. Does anyone know the internal design of these NDBs- wouldn't surprise me if they drive a squarewave to their (what looks to be rather small) antenna. In which case how do they generate the AM ? Wonder if I should complain to the RIS about the interference ? Might be worth taking a trip around the perimeter road with the car radio tuned to 1174 kHz, or better still, the local station on 1170kHz and hope it interferes. Andy G4JNT > > >So sending a few 100W square wave into a big antenna is not really > >recommended. -- The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s). For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is prohibited and may be unlawful. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16406 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 13:32:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO guinness.servers.plus.net) (212.159.3.230) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 13:32:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 2996 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 12:26:46 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from post.thorcom.com (212.172.148.70) by mx.last.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 12:26:46 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xpXQ-0006pk-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 13:27:24 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xpXM-0006pZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 13:27:20 +0100 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id OAA968162 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:26:32 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20010510132736.2c87c87a@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> X-Sender: pb623250@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 13:27:36 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: LF: harmonics / LF antenna In-reply-to: <004401c0d92c$0f19a060$af6e74d5@w8k3f0> References: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C0491@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> <3AFA2E4C.EBB3C4EF@alg.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello group, few days ago I got a mail from someone new to LF who asked me how efficient a vertical antenna would surpress the harmonic contests from the TX. So far I hadn't put much thought on that as my 400W TX has a 3 stage LF filter, keeping all harmonics at least 50dB down. But calculations seem te be quite simple, above the resonance frequency the antenna becomes inductive. The average antenna (few 100pF capacitance) will already at the second harmonic have an inductive component of several 1000 Ohms, keeping the (harmonic) current low. But on the other hand the radiation resistance will increase by the square of the frequency, making whateven harmonic current that gets through the coil being radiated more efficient. Just out of curiosity I calculated the overall efficiency of a loaded vertical antenna on the harmonic frequencies and came to the result that the harmonic supression is rather constant for all harmonics. Below you find the result for a vertical monopole with a capacitance of 300pF and a loss resistance of 50 Ohm : FREQUENCY Impedance Efficiency (versus fundamental) fund. (137kHz) 50 Ohm 0.0dB 2nd harm. (274kHz) 5811 Ohm -29.3dB 3rd harm. (411kHz) 10330 Ohm -30.7dB 4rd harm. (548kHz) 14526 Ohm -31.2dB 6th harm. (822kHz) 22596 Ohm -31.5dB 8th harm. (1096kHz) 30505 Ohm -31.6dB 10th harm. (1370kHz) 38349 Ohm -31.7dB For the calculations I assumed no stray capacitance in the coil, so in the 'real world' the figures might be a few dB different, probably higher (less negative). Further the harmonic surpresssion becomes less is the antenna capacitance increases (smaller coil needed) and the loss resistance increases. Eg : for a 'big' antenna with 600pF capacitance and 100 Ohm groundloss the antenna efficiency on the 2nd harmonic frequency will be only -17.2dB down, on the 10th harmonic -19.6dB. So sending a few 100W square wave into a big antenna is not really recommended. 73, Rik ON7YD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26127 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 13:17:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO guinness.servers.plus.net) (212.159.3.230) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 13:17:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 16737 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 13:04:18 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from post.thorcom.com (212.172.148.70) by mx.last.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 13:04:18 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xq5Q-00075l-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:02:32 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from fm215.facility.pipex.com ([194.131.104.225]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xq5M-00075d-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:02:29 +0100 Received: from 233.pncl.co.uk (116.234.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.uk [212.35.234.116]) by fm215.facility.pipex.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11634 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 13:54:56 +0100 (BST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010510135810.00a18470@mail.pncl.co.uk> X-Sender: blanch@mail.pncl.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:02:05 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Walter Blanchard" Subject: Re: LF: harmonics / LF antenna In-reply-to: <3.0.1.16.20010510132736.2c87c87a@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> References: <004401c0d92c$0f19a060$af6e74d5@w8k3f0> <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C0491@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> <3AFA2E4C.EBB3C4EF@alg.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 14:27 10/05/01 Thursday, Rik wrote: >So sending a few 100W square wave into a big antenna is not really >recommended. > >73, Rik ON7YD We had a Loran-C transmitter design in 1980 that delivered a square wave into the antenna and depended on antenna Q for pulse shaping. It proved impossible to maintain Q to the required accuracy!! Walter G3JKV. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16548 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 11:27:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO guinness.servers.plus.net) (212.159.3.230) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 11:27:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 3362 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 08:24:29 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (212.172.148.70) by mx.last.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 08:24:29 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xls1-00051U-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 09:32:25 +0100 Received: from rubellite.lion-access.net ([212.19.217.4]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xls0-00051P-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 09:32:24 +0100 Received: from w8k3f0 (1Cust175.tnt8.rtm1.nl.uu.net [213.116.110.175]) by rubellite.lion-access.net (I-Lab) with SMTP id 5DBE827DF for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 08:31:31 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <004401c0d92c$0f19a060$af6e74d5@w8k3f0> From: "Dick Rollema" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C0491@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> <3AFA2E4C.EBB3C4EF@alg.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: LF: Antenna Current Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:05:08 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: To All from PA0SE Andy G4JNT wrote: > > I also suggest that the different current measured at each end of a > > loading coil, as mentioned in an earlier posting, could quite easily be > > due to the slight mistuning when the extra hardware associated with the > > ammeter is connected in circuit on the top side. Steve, GW4ALG, responded: > As mentioned in my earlier posting, I was careful to check for > system resonance before each measurement. How about you, Dick? The effect Andy mentions is indeed present. Apart from the thermo couple ammeter that I moved from top to bottom of the coil there is another instrument permanent in place at the top end. Inserting the second meter in series caused the aerial current to drop from 2A to 1.85A. But a slight retune restored it to 2A again. Also when measuring the current of 2.1A at the bottom end, the instrument at the top still indicated the same 2A. In my former e-mail I said the difference was 10%; it is 5% of course. Modelling showed that a difference of 1.55% is caused by the "normal" capacitive current that leaves the coil as part of the near field around the aerial as the coil is part of the radiating system. The remaining part must be extra capacitive current flowing to earthed objects surrounding the coil. To check this I moved the coil upwards and sideways in the shack and expected this would at least cause a small change in the current difference between top and bottom of he coil. But no, there was no detectable change at all. So I'm afraid I still don't quite understand the situation. 73, Dick, PA0SE From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12426 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 06:05:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO guinness.servers.plus.net) (212.159.3.230) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 06:05:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 12940 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 05:53:09 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (212.172.148.70) by mx.last.plus.net with SMTP; 10 May 2001 05:53:09 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xjRE-0003sf-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 06:56:36 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.91]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xjQl-0003sa-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 06:56:07 +0100 Received: from alg.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.80]) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14xjQA-0005Ej-0X for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 06:55:31 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3AFA2E4C.EBB3C4EF@alg.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 06:59:40 +0100 From: "Steve Rawlings" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Antenna Current References: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C0491@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Andy G4JNT wrote: > I also suggest that the different current measured at each end of a > loading coil, as mentioned in an earlier posting, could quite easily be > due to the slight mistuning when the extra hardware associated with the > ammeter is connected in circuit on the top side. As mentioned in my earlier posting, I was careful to check for system resonance before each measurement. How about you, Dick? Regards to all, Steve GW4ALG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3712 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 02:26:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 10 May 2001 02:26:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 10559 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 02:26:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 10 May 2001 02:26:37 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xg1C-0002TM-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 03:17:30 +0100 Received: from tomts8.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.52] helo=tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xg1B-0002TH-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 03:17:29 +0100 Received: from server1 ([216.208.193.33]) by tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with SMTP id <20010510021626.TUGI15234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@server1> for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 22:16:26 -0400 Message-ID: <002401c0d8f6$f01275f0$0a00a8c0@ThreeLakes.ca> From: "Larry Kayser" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <001601c0d656$411376a0$d589883e@g3aqc> Subject: LF: Conversation with VE1ZZ, Jack Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 22:14:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Greetings All: Late this afternoon I had a pleasant telephone call from Jack, VE1ZZ. We discussed the Canadian LF situation and how we will deal with the renewal of the LF project that is currently pending. Later in the conversation Jack mentioned that he is going to get a real computer that will work on the Internet and that he can run some DSP programs. I gave him as much reinforcement for this action as I could, he has concerns about his ability to use the platform effectively and it will take some time but he is going to give it a go. This is good news, most certainly Jack will be able to work european stations that I have very little to no chance of hearing or working. Once Jack his feet wet with the new toy you should expect he will beat the living tar out of the system to work everything he will be able to see that he knows well that he can not hear. If anyone needs incentive to get to work on their antenna, ground system, loading coils - now is the time as Jack will lead a charge over the North Atlantic this fall and winter. I fully expect that once Jack can see signals that he will use the tool to help learn to resolve the aural signals and a two way A1 aural QSO over the North Atlantic will happen in the coming year. I hope that each of you in Europe will see the new opportunity that will be coming soon. 73 Larry VA3LK From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16373 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 16:54:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 9 May 2001 16:54:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 11390 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 16:21:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 9 May 2001 16:21:40 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xWbv-0006sF-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 17:14:47 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from imo-r13.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.67]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xWbt-0006s0-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 17:14:45 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-r13.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.10.) id l.97.150dae0b (17383) for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:13:36 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <97.150dae0b.282ac6b0@aol.com> Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:13:36 EDT Subject: LF: [Lf] Antenna To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows DE sub 217 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hello Group,

please forget my last posting to this group.
Noticed too late that I received the antenna article from another reflecter.
And Guess it was only adressed to the US guys with their antenna size limit.

Here is what it said, maybe the end of all our antenna problems : ..--..

From N8BKR

<begin quote>

  I have built a very efficient antenna for 160 to 190 Khz. This antenna can
be used on 136 khz.  It consists of a forty foot dia.top hat with a three
foot wide, long, loading coil mounted under the top hat.  The loading coil is
wound with copper strap and has a coil inside the main loading coil to tune
the antenna to it's operating freq.    The top hat consists of eight 20 foot
1.25 inch diameter aluminum tubing mounted on two plywood disks.  I have
tested this antenna an it works very well.   This antenna cost me about
$1000.00 to build and I will offer it to your group to use as long as you
like with no obligation to me.  This antenna will outperform any thing you
are now using.  Please contact me if you are interested and I will load it on
my truck and bring it to your site and help install it.    
      Don Moler N8BKR   2623 Morris lane    Girard, Ohio   44420   Ph 330
530 2059     
E-mail   vonj@cboss.com

<end quote>

My very personal opinion: too good to be true.

73's Wolf (DL4YHF). From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2309 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 16:15:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 9 May 2001 16:15:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 19902 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 16:08:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 9 May 2001 16:08:30 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xWJV-0006es-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 16:55:45 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from imo-r14.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.68]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xWIm-0006e7-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 16:55:00 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-r14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.10.) id l.7d.14af6792 (3703) for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 11:53:48 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <7d.14af6792.282ac20c@aol.com> Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:53:48 EDT Subject: LF: R:[Lf] antenna by N8BKR To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows DE sub 217 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hi Don,

 sure ?

Guess what OH1TN thinks...   ;-)

73's, Wolf (DL4YHF, DF0WD). From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12986 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 14:52:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 9 May 2001 14:52:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 21656 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 14:52:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 9 May 2001 14:52:59 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xUsc-0005y7-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 15:23:54 +0100 Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xUsX-0005va-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 15:23:50 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.9.53]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 11:22:05 -0300 Message-ID: <3AF90CA6.8F56BF85@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 02:23:52 -0700 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: More on coil current at PA0SE References: <001c01c0d885$78866ee0$fd8c74d5@w8k3f0> Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hi Dick It doesn't make any sense to me at all that the current would be the same at the top of the coil as it is at the bottom. If it were you should be able to replace the coil by a wire.
        If  the impedance of the coil is at the bottom is different than the impedance at the top the current should be different .  Perhaps the coil losses can mask this effect but it still
should be true.
        Thinking of it another way if the bottom of the coil is grounded  we can match the tx to the antenna( assuming resonance ) by moving  the point where we connect the tx up and down the coil
   73 de John VE1ZJ
Dick Rollema wrote:
To All from PA0SE A.  I have modelled my aerial using Antenna Optimizer by K6STI.This also provides the current distribution on the aerial.The coil is modelled  as a lumped inductance.As  expected the current above and below the coil is shown to be the same.Now the books have it that a coil with a length of L metres radiates like a straight wire of the same length.  To find the radiation from my 58cm high coil I looked at the current distribution on the first 58cm of aerial wire immediately above the coil, where the current that enters at the bottom end is the same as in the coil . AO indicates that the current at the top end of that piece of wire is 1.55% lower than at the bottom end. So that is current lost by radiation.I measured a difference of 10% between currents at the top and bottom of my coil. So most of the current lost must be due to capacitance to surrounding objects. B.  I also modelled Steve's 12m high vertical. The program assumes that the aerial is over perfect earth. The real earth may be some distance below the surface so the actual aerial may be longer than 12 m. (Remember Jim's aerial on a hill at Puckeridge that radiated better than expected from its physical length?)The program shows that a coil of 12.87mH will be needed for resonance.For the difference in current between 2.2A at the bottom and 1.8A at the top of the coil to be entirely caused by radiation the coil must be 1.85m high.   Looking at the picture at Steve's website this is not the case. So some current must be escaping through capacitance to the surrounding. C.  I entirely agree with those who state that a difference in current between the two ends of a coil can only be caused by radiation and capacitance to surrounding objects.Any other effects, like loss in the coil, distributed capacitance etc. remain internal to the coil and cannot cause a difference between current flowing in and out. 73, Dick, PA0SE
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29241 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 14:46:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 9 May 2001 14:46:28 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: (qmail 16424 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 14:46:31 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 9 May 2001 14:46:31 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xV2T-00064Q-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 15:34:05 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.39]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xV2P-00064L-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 15:34:01 +0100 Received: from telemetry.demon.co.uk ([194.222.19.114]) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14xV1t-0003z2-0B for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 9 May 2001 14:33:29 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:33:59 +0100 To: "RSGB LF Group" From: "Tom Boucher" Subject: LF: Antenna Current MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.03a Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Thanks Andy - I was trying to get my head around the reason for high voltage AND high current at the top of the coil. You have explained everything we ever need to know about antennas in a few paragraphs. Good job there is someone in our midst who knows what he is talking about. 73, Tom G3OLB From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 344 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 14:08:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 9 May 2001 14:08:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 3198 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 13:54:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 9 May 2001 13:54:33 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xUIc-0005e3-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 14:46:42 +0100 X-Priority: 3 Received: from bob.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xUIX-0005dy-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 14:46:37 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: by bob.dera.gov.uk; (8.8.8/1.3/10May95) id OAA06062; Wed, 9 May 2001 14:50:03 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 30809 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 14:38:05 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk (172.16.9.10) by baton.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 9 May 2001 14:38:05 -0000 Received: by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk; id OAA19850; Wed, 9 May 2001 14:33:34 GMT Received: from unknown(10.71.64.31) by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk via smap (3.2) id xma019748; Wed, 9 May 01 14:33:14 GMT Received: from frn-gold-1.dera.gov.uk (unverified) by mailguard.dera.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 14:51:36 +0100 Received: by frn-gold-1.dera.gov.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Wed, 9 May 2001 14:43:56 +0100 Message-ID: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C0491@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Antenna Current Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:43:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > > > If the voltage on the output of the coil is higher than that on the input then > > (for constant power) the current must be less. > > Nick > > G4WHO > > Ah. This is one of the great mysteries of loading coils that > has always baffled > me. Does anyone have a good explanation? > > Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) Are we in a Monty Python farce here ? Are you being serious ? Nick are you trying to wind us up (and are you coming to the Forum on Sunday week just up the road) ? Hopefully you're just being convoluted :-) Several amps of RF current through a (perfect lossless) coil of a specified reactance gives a voltage across the coil that is 90 degrees Out Of Phase with the current through it. 90 degrees phase shift equals no power. For a properly tuned antenna system the reactance of the coil equals that of the antenna capacitance in series with it, and hence reactances cancel, giving purely the resistive losses in the rest of the system. The network is defined from input terminal, through loading coil, through antenna capacitance to gound. No power has been dissipated yet. eg. 270pF antenna capacitance at 137kHz = 5000 ohms reactance. This reactance is tuned out with 5mH inductance. For an antenna current of 2.5A passing though this combination a voltage of 2.5 A * 5000 ohms = 7500 V appears at the top end. For a real system take losses and resistance into account: Loss resistance of coil - say 15 ohms Ground resistance 85 ohms (includes proximity effects, but we'll keep it simple and just call it ground) Antenna radiation resistance 0.004 ohms Total resistance is the sum of these ie 100.004 ohms (just call it 100 !) which appear in series with the L/C combination Total power dissipated = 2.5^2 * 100 = 625 Watts And purely for interest, power radiated is that in just the radiation resistance = 2.5^2 * 0.004 = 0.025W Also, antenna efficiency = Radiation resistance / total resistance = 0.004 / 100 = 0.004% = -44dB And also, to complete the antenna analysis : Q = Reactance / Resistance = 5000 / 100 = 50 So, approximate bandwidth of the antenna is F / Q = 137000 / 50 = 2.74kHz All simple, basic, RAE level calculations and by measuing just a few values the essential parameters of any antenna system can be easily determined. The above figures correspond quite closely to my antenna in dry weather. The ERP IS about 20mW, the bandwidth IS about 2.5kHz, the other values measure as above. --------------- I also suggest that the different current measured at each end of a loading coil, as mentioned in an earlier posting, could quite easily be due to the slight mistuning when the extra hardware associated with the ammeter is connected in circuit on the top side. To illustrate this, just try touching the antenna connection with (very, very, very, very well insulated) screwdriver and see what happens to Antenna current - in a switching PA this will directly be related to PA current which is much easier to measure. An extra stray capacitance of an estimated 2pF on my antenna will detune the system by 500 Hz which is enough to shift current by a few percent. To properly measure the two currents, you should use two (identical) meters connected in circuit simultaneously. Those fortunate to have larger antennas, with say 500pF or more will have lower Qs, larger bandwidths, lower voltages, less proximity effect, smaller coils and less fun getting the antenna to work. Andy G4JNT -- The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s). For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is prohibited and may be unlawful. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 285 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 14:08:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 9 May 2001 14:08:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 3071 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 13:54:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 9 May 2001 13:54:27 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xTsm-0005W4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 14:20:00 +0100 Received: from rubellite.lion-access.net ([212.19.217.4]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xTsi-0005Vz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 14:19:56 +0100 Received: from w8k3f0 (1Cust80.tnt13.rtm1.nl.uu.net [213.116.120.80]) by rubellite.lion-access.net (I-Lab) with SMTP id BEC4429C4 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 13:18:32 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <002d01c0d88a$fa7daa80$fd8c74d5@w8k3f0> From: "Dick Rollema" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3AF937DE.505.AF99B3@localhost> Subject: Re: LF: Antenna Current Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:20:56 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: To All from PA0SE When talking about the voltage on a certain point in a circuit it must be stated against which other point it is measured. When the loading coil is connected to earth at its bottom end and when voltage is measured also against earth then the voltage at the bottom end of the coil is zero and at the top it is I times X; with I = current in the coil and X = inductive reactance of the coil. 73, Dick, PA0SE ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht ----- Van: Mike Dennison Aan: Verzonden: woensdag 9 mei 2001 13:28 Onderwerp: Re: LF: Antenna Current > > If the voltage on the output of the coil is higher than that on the input then > > (for constant power) the current must be less. > > Nick > > G4WHO > > Ah. This is one of the great mysteries of loading coils that has always baffled > me. Does anyone have a good explanation? > > > Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) > http://www.lf.thersgb.net > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26944 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 13:22:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 9 May 2001 13:22:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 17607 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 12:52:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 9 May 2001 12:52:26 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xTG9-0005CL-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 13:40:05 +0100 Received: from rubellite.lion-access.net ([212.19.217.4]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xTG2-0005C8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 13:39:59 +0100 Received: from w8k3f0 (1Cust253.tnt23.rtm1.nl.uu.net [213.116.140.253]) by rubellite.lion-access.net (I-Lab) with SMTP id 2C37A2ECE for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:39:07 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <001c01c0d885$78866ee0$fd8c74d5@w8k3f0> From: "Dick Rollema" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: More on coil current at PA0SE Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:41:28 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
To All from PA0SE
 
A.  I have modelled my aerial using Antenna Optimizer by K6STI.
This also provides the current distribution on the aerial.
The coil is modelled  as a lumped inductance.
As  expected the current above and below the coil is shown to be the same.
Now the books have it that a coil with a length of L metres radiates like a straight wire of the same length.  To find the radiation from my 58cm high coil I looked at the current distribution on the first 58cm of aerial wire immediately above the coil, where the current that enters at the bottom end is the same as in the coil . AO indicates that the current at the top end of that piece of wire is 1.55% lower than at the bottom end. So that is current lost by radiation.
I measured a difference of 10% between currents at the top and bottom of my coil. So most of the current lost must be due to capacitance to surrounding objects.  
 
B.  I also modelled Steve's 12m high vertical. The program assumes that the aerial is over perfect earth. The real earth may be some distance below the surface so the actual aerial may be longer than 12 m. (Remember Jim's aerial on a hill at Puckeridge that radiated better than expected from its physical length?)
The program shows that a coil of 12.87mH will be needed for resonance. 
For the difference in current between 2.2A at the bottom and 1.8A at the top of the coil to be entirely caused by radiation the coil must be 1.85m high.   Looking at the picture at Steve's website this is not the case. So some current must be escaping through capacitance to the surrounding.
 
C.  I entirely agree with those who state that a difference in current between the two ends of a coil can only be caused by radiation and capacitance to surrounding objects.
Any other effects, like loss in the coil, distributed capacitance etc. remain internal to the coil and cannot cause a difference between current flowing in and out.
 
73, Dick, PA0SE 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2531 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 11:39:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 9 May 2001 11:39:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 16148 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 11:39:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 9 May 2001 11:39:35 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xSDC-0004lC-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 12:32:58 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from [213.2.16.106] (helo=rsgb.org.uk) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xSD8-0004l7-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 12:32:55 +0100 Received: from miked by rsgb.org.uk with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.8.7.5.R) for ; Wed, 09 May 2001 12:28:16 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Mike Dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:28:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: LF: Antenna Current Message-ID: <3AF937DE.505.AF99B3@localhost> In-reply-to: References: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Return-Path: miked@mail Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > If the voltage on the output of the coil is higher than that on the input then > (for constant power) the current must be less. > Nick > G4WHO Ah. This is one of the great mysteries of loading coils that has always baffled me. Does anyone have a good explanation? Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15016 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 11:15:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 9 May 2001 11:15:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 16502 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 11:15:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 9 May 2001 11:15:12 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xRnZ-0004YN-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 12:06:29 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.176] helo=protactinium) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xRnI-0004YI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 12:06:13 +0100 Received: from [213.122.61.18] (helo=host213-122-61-18.btinternet.com) by rhenium with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 14xEAp-0007g3-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 21:33:43 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Nick" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Antenna Current Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 21:33:12 +0100 Message-ID: References: In-reply-to: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: On Tue, 8 May 2001 16:35:34 +0100, you wrote: >Dave states that even if it were a lumped inductance with zero length, >the currents would be different. How can that possibly be so? Where does >the current go? If the voltage on the output of the coil is higher than that on the input then (for constant power) the current must be less. Nick G4WHO From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20796 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 10:56:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 9 May 2001 10:56:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 863 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 10:55:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 9 May 2001 10:55:59 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xRKG-0004Jy-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 11:36:12 +0100 Received: from bob.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xRKA-0004Jt-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 09 May 2001 11:36:07 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: by bob.dera.gov.uk; (8.8.8/1.3/10May95) id LAA05547; Wed, 9 May 2001 11:39:29 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 1423 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 11:28:39 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk (172.16.9.10) by baton.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 9 May 2001 11:28:39 -0000 Received: by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk; id LAA10667; Wed, 9 May 2001 11:24:08 GMT Received: from unknown(10.71.64.31) by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk via smap (3.2) id xma010590; Wed, 9 May 01 11:23:39 GMT Received: from FRN-MAIL-3.dera.gov.uk (unverified) by mailguard.dera.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 9 May 2001 11:41:58 +0100 Received: by frn-mail-3.dera.gov.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 9 May 2001 11:34:13 +0100 Message-ID: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C0490@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: "LF Group \(E-mail\)" Cc: "API-HOME \(E-mail\)" , "API \(E-mail\)" Subject: LF: LF Forum details Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:34:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
The LF Forum scheduled for Sunday 20th May will be held at the headquarters of the Flight Refuelling Amateur Radio Society at Merley near Wimborne Dorset.   Start time is scheduled for 1100.
 
Directions to get there are as follow :
 
Take the A31 trunk road.  From the East this road is an extension of the M3 motorway through the New Forest and Ringwood, bypassing Wimborne itself.  From the West the A31 splits from the A35 past Dorchester, just after Bere regis.
On the A31, northern side of Poole, there is a roundabout junction with the A349.  Take this road signposted Poole (note that Merley Bird Gardens has another exit on this roundabout, do not take that one !)
Go up the hill for about 100 metres to another roundabout at the top.
Take the right hand exit, towards Poole.
Almost immediately you will pass a small restaurant and shop in a side road, take the turning on the right into a country lane immediately after this, then immediately right into the Flight Refuelling Sports and Social club entrance.
For those with GPS and / or OS maps,   the National Grid reference  is  SZ 014 982
 
The Club Shack is on the left, with a decent sized adjacent car park and a sports field opposite.  A large microwave dish is leaning up against the shack wall.
 
There is little point in giving a map out as all the roads, as well as Merley Bird Gardens, are shown on decent road atlases
 
Provisional agenda is :
 
1100 - 1230    Bring and Buy,  informal natter session
1230 - 1330    Lunch,  bring sandwiches or local pub etc.   Tea / Coffee will most probably be available
1330 - ??        Three talks / Sessions :
               
        The  G4JNT   700 Watt (plus)  direct from mains  Switch Mode transmitter
        Jim M0BMU on WOLF, getting it going etc.
        An open forum / discussion group which Mike G3XDV has agreed to chair.
 
This is the first time such an event dedicated just to LF has been held apart from those at Windsor, but the above agenda has proved to be very successful for Microwave Roundtables, held usualy two - three times a year.  There is of course considerable flexibility.  If anyone else wants any other subjects covered, or a change of timings etc, these can probably be accomodated.
 
Andy  G4JNT
 
               


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 From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24748 invoked from network); 8 May 2001 22:52:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 8 May 2001 22:52:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 20376 invoked from network); 8 May 2001 22:52:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 8 May 2001 22:52:52 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xGG3-00083r-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 23:47:07 +0100 Received: from mail6.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.193.212]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xGFz-00083l-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 23:47:03 +0100 Received: from modem-85.baranduin.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.135.85] helo=g3aqc) by mail6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14xGFT-0004KI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 23:46:32 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c0d808$687e0080$5587883e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. Beacon Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 22:46:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Sorry I have a TX fault that I cant fix tonite.So no beacon !
Will try to fix it tomorrow. 73s Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9642 invoked from network); 8 May 2001 20:56:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 8 May 2001 20:56:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 16079 invoked from network); 8 May 2001 20:56:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 8 May 2001 20:56:23 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xEQf-0007EC-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 21:49:57 +0100 Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xEQb-0007E6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 21:49:54 +0100 Received: from xtr743187 ([202.27.178.15]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20010508204846.HOTY2184114.mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz@xtr743187> for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:48:46 +1200 Message-ID: <007801c0d800$8cc69cc0$83b51bca@xtr743187> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000a01c0d7c6$4f8226c0$c59e74d5@w8k3f0> Subject: LF: Re: Coil current at PA0SE Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:49:18 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Dick,
 
Thanks for providing some more measured data:
 
I adjusted the transmitter for 2A aerial current flowing into the strapped feeder wires.
Current in the connection from the coil to the central heating radiator was then 2.1A.
 
If this difference is explained by an in-phase (radiation) and quadrature (capacitive shunt from coil strays to ground) current, then it has the following vector constitution:
 
2.0 + j0.64 = (modulus) 2.1 amps.
 
Until phase data is confirmed, the "difference current" can range from 0.1 to 0.64 amps, as RF ammeters indicate the net (modulus) current and "don't know" about vector components.
 
73, Bob
 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4543 invoked from network); 8 May 2001 16:49:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 8 May 2001 16:49:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 22807 invoked from network); 8 May 2001 16:47:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 8 May 2001 16:47:55 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xAUP-0005Vh-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 17:37:33 +0100 Received: from mta00f.seamail.go.com ([204.202.140.192] helo=webmailmta.go.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xAUN-0005Vc-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 17:37:32 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from gomailjtp01 ([10.212.0.161]) by mta00.seamail.go.com (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.4.0.2000.05.17.04.13.p6) with ESMTP id <0GD000LEAZDC1X@mta00.seamail.go.com> for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 09:36:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Sexton" Subject: Re: LF: re Steve To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: <8138371.989339799233.JavaMail.computernetworks@gomailjtp01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: GoMail 3.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Alan, I think you have struck the nail on the head Alan. Current in = Current out is probably only true if the coil is very short, i.e. this is just an approximation to the truth, which breaks down when the coil is large. If there were no wire attached to the top, current in would certainly not equal current out, so why should a bit of wire stuck on the top make a lot of difference? The coil would then become a helical antenna and would probably need a lot of capacitance to bring it to resonance. 73 John, G4CNN -----Original Message----- From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Date: Mon May 07 16:41:29 PDT 2001 Subject: LF: re Steve's RF currents >Hi all, It occurs to me that Steve's aerials is just 12m up....no top load,>so there will be a considerable taper in the current from top to >bottom....not like the heavily top-loaded 'T's and 'L's which are supposed >to have almost constant current in the vertical. Might this difference in >current be just what might be expected in that situation....I think the coil >has to be regarded as part of the aerial. If you assume a linear taper in >current that accounts for about 200mA just by the length of the coil (app. >1m) or its height above ground. Maybe that a bit naive, but then if the >other was losses, that would account for the 400mA. > >Fascinating....I am learning a lot. > >Cheers de Alan G3NYK >Alan.Melia@btinternet.com > > > ___________________________________________________ GO.com Mail Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2626 invoked from network); 8 May 2001 16:49:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 8 May 2001 16:49:05 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: (qmail 19852 invoked from network); 8 May 2001 16:44:04 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 8 May 2001 16:44:04 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xAOh-0005VR-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 17:31:39 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.92]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14xAOd-0005VM-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 17:31:36 +0100 Received: from telemetry.demon.co.uk ([194.222.19.114]) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14xAO4-0000ol-0Y for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 17:31:00 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 16:35:34 +0100 To: "RSGB LF Group" From: "Tom Boucher" Subject: LF: Antenna Current MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.03a Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello all. Dave G3YMC has reiterated one of the common misconceptions about loaded antennas. There is no reason at all why the current out of the 'top' of the loading coil should not be exactly the same as that into the 'bottom', providing it is a lumped inductance with no distributed capacitance. It is a simple series resonant circuit and the same current flows around the circuit. Dave states that even if it were a lumped inductance with zero length, the currents would be different. How can that possibly be so? Where does the current go? The tapering current shown in handbooks across the 160 metre whip coils is due to their distributed capacitance and current flowing out of the coil along its length instead of into the top section. Steve and Dick's difference in current must be due to some distributed capacitance across the coil. I will take the same measurements when I am at home again next week end. Wonder if I will get the same results? Probably not because my long 335 metre wire only needs about 250 microhenrys to resonate it on 136 KHz, so the voltage gradient across the coil is a lot less than for a short antenna. 73, Tom G3OLB From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6285 invoked from network); 8 May 2001 16:11:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 8 May 2001 16:11:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 20426 invoked from network); 8 May 2001 15:40:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior with SMTP; 8 May 2001 15:40:18 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14x9Pc-00053r-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 16:28:32 +0100 Received: from cmailg5.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.195.175]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14x9PY-00053m-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 16:28:28 +0100 Received: from modem-16.drengist.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.158.144] helo=g3aqc) by cmailg5.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14x9Oz-0003B3-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 16:27:55 +0100 Message-ID: <000e01c0d7cb$227faee0$909e883e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. Beacon Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 15:27:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hi John and all,
Alans report on CFH last night indicates that there was a period between 0200 and 0400 when T/A signals should get through. So I will run the beacon tonight from 2300 utc on 135.922.
It would be interesting to get a report that correlates with Alan's CFH reception. 73s Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25670 invoked from network); 8 May 2001 14:22:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO guinness.servers.plus.net) (212.159.3.230) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 8 May 2001 14:22:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 27085 invoked from network); 8 May 2001 14:08:44 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (212.172.148.70) by mx.last.plus.net with SMTP; 8 May 2001 14:08:44 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14x7ws-0004La-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 14:54:46 +0100 Received: from lepidachrosite.lion-access.net ([212.19.217.3]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14x7wm-0004LV-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 14:54:41 +0100 Received: from w8k3f0 (1Cust197.tnt32.rtm1.nl.uu.net [213.116.158.197]) by lepidachrosite.lion-access.net (I-Lab) with SMTP id 52D1DCB4D5 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 13:50:17 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <000a01c0d7c6$4f8226c0$c59e74d5@w8k3f0> From: "Dick Rollema" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: Coil current at PA0SE Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 15:53:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
To All from PA0SE
 
Spurred on by Steve, GW4ALG, I also measured the current above and below my aerial loading/tuning coil.
 
The aerial is my multiband one for 10 - 160 m; consisting of a 2 x 20 m dipole, centre fed by 11m open line feeder. For 136 kHz the feeder wires are strapped together in the attic shack . There the loading coil is located; its bottom end is connected to a radiator of the central heating system.  The current from the bottom end of the coil flows from that radiator to the boiler, which is adjacent to the shack, and from there via its gas pipe to the gas main which is the only earth connection. So the gas pipe actually forms part of the radiating system, the vertical part of which is about 18 m in total (7 m gas pipe + 11 m strapped feeder line). The earth resistance varies a bit with the season but usually is around 30 ohms. 
The coil is  56 cm high of which the upper 12 cm is shortcircuited. I have found out earlier that it makes no difference in aerial current whether the upper unused turns are left open or shortcircuited. Fine tuning is by a vacuum capacitor in parallel with the coil. Because this causes an extra current in the coil, increasing its loss, I take care to make the coil so large that only a small capacitance is required for resonance.
 
I adjusted the transmitter for 2A aerial current flowing into the strapped feeder wires.
Current in the connection from the coil to the central heating radiator was then 2.1A.
 
I used the same thermo couple instrument for both measurements.
 
73, Dick, PA0SE
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12278 invoked from network); 8 May 2001 07:34:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 8 May 2001 07:34:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 15994 invoked from network); 8 May 2001 07:34:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 8 May 2001 07:34:55 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14x1ue-0001nq-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 08:28:04 +0100 Received: from carbon.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.92]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14x1ud-0001nl-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 08:28:03 +0100 Received: from [213.122.230.17] (helo=dave) by carbon.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 14x1u5-00052X-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 08:27:29 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c0d790$6400a440$11e67ad5@dave> From: "Dave Sergeant" To: "rsgb_lf_group" References: <3AF71803.D09F46B3@alg.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: LF: Measurement of antenna current Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 08:27:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >From Dave G3YMC There has been discussion on the difference in current below and above a vertical antenna's loading coil. I was not going to get involved in this discussion, but when I see some of the arguments put forward to justify this as being the same I had to. My response to Steve's results are that I would have expected an even greater difference. It is a fundamental property of any loaded antenna that the current distribution of such an antenna will reduce from a maximum at its base to zero at the top (or physical end of wire if there is a capacitive top). The classic diagrams of this distribution seem not to appear in the text books today, possibly because of less use of Top Band mobile. However it does appear in the RSGB Radio Communication Handbook 1968 edition p. 16.33 and the ARRL Antenna Book 1988 edition p. 16.4. Both these show maximum current at the base, a tapering current across the loading coil, and a rather smaller current above it tapering to zero at the top. There is no reason to believe the current at the two ends of the loading coil will be the same, and the fact that all of you will be aware you get a much higher voltage at the top than at the bottom would in anycase indicate otherwise. By the laws of nature the power at these two points will be the same less any difference due to radiation from it and electrical loss, so if the voltage is higher the current by definition must be less. There will also be a phase shift (90 degrees in the ideal case) between the voltages and currents. The ARRL Antenna Book perhaps gives the clearest explanation, where it likens the antenna to a transmission line with distributed inductance and capacitance (to ground). The loading coil represents an lumped inductance and a corresponding step change in current. Even if the inductance were of zero length the current would still be different. This is of course the reason why centre or top loading is better than base loading. The optimum radiation comes from those sections carrying the highest current, ie below the loading coil. Increase the length below the coil and you will improve the radiation. Thankyou Steve for confirming the operation of the classical base loaded vertical antenna! 73s Dave G3YMC dsergeant@btinternet.com dsergeant@iee.org http://www.dsergeant.btinternet.co.uk From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14231 invoked from network); 7 May 2001 23:50:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2001 23:50:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 23105 invoked from network); 7 May 2001 23:50:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 7 May 2001 23:50:44 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wugx-0007Nh-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 00:45:27 +0100 Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.176] helo=protactinium) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wugw-0007Nc-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 00:45:26 +0100 Received: from [62.7.32.20] (helo=default) by protactinium with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 14wugQ-0002uj-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 May 2001 00:44:54 +0100 Message-ID: <001101c0d74f$41b764a0$ec0c7bd5@default> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: re Steve's RF currents Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 00:41:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, It occurs to me that Steve's aerials is just 12m up....no top load, so there will be a considerable taper in the current from top to bottom....not like the heavily top-loaded 'T's and 'L's which are supposed to have almost constant current in the vertical. Might this difference in current be just what might be expected in that situation....I think the coil has to be regarded as part of the aerial. If you assume a linear taper in current that accounts for about 200mA just by the length of the coil (app. 1m) or its height above ground. Maybe that a bit naive, but then if the other was losses, that would account for the 400mA. Fascinating....I am learning a lot. Cheers de Alan G3NYK Alan.Melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10619 invoked from network); 7 May 2001 21:56:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 7 May 2001 21:56:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 17246 invoked from network); 7 May 2001 21:56:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 7 May 2001 21:56:30 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wssQ-0006Yg-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 07 May 2001 22:49:10 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.41]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wssP-0006Yb-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 07 May 2001 22:49:09 +0100 Received: from alg.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.80]) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14wsru-0004GJ-0C for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 7 May 2001 21:48:38 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3AF71803.D09F46B3@alg.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 22:47:47 +0100 From: "Steve Rawlings" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Measurement of antenna current References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: John KD4IDY wrote: > I don't recall whether you ever mentioned what the length is of your > coil. Is it an appreciable fraction of the overall antenna height? Hi John. The length of the loading coil is 800 mm. Because it is raised up 400 mm above the patio, the top of the winding is at 1.2 m. So Mike G3XDV was correct when he suggested that the length of my loading coil might be a significant proportion of the overall height of the antenna (12 m). > Also, I seem to recollect that some of the discussion involved excess > turns at the "hot" end (top) of the loading coil. I wonder what might > have been the outcome if you had removed them, rather than simply > shorting them? In fact, I eventually did just that! I removed all of the excess turns. But even after having done so, I found no significant difference in the antenna current. I got the same results, whether the excess turns were: - left connected, but open circuit; - left connected, but shorted; - disconnected from main winding; or, - physically removed from the coil former. So, with Laurie's help, my next line of inquiry is to see if Mr Stray Capacitance stole the 400 mills . . . (It appears that Eddy Loss has a good alibi.) Regards to all, Steve GW4ALG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15378 invoked from network); 7 May 2001 19:33:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 7 May 2001 19:33:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 18300 invoked from network); 7 May 2001 19:33:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 7 May 2001 19:33:52 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wqfN-0005Zc-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 07 May 2001 20:27:33 +0100 Received: from imo-r11.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.65]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wqfL-0005ZX-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 07 May 2001 20:27:32 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from WarmSpgs@aol.com by imo-r11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.10.) id l.c1.e1dd45e (4333) for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 15:26:16 -0400 (EDT) From: WarmSpgs@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 15:26:16 EDT Subject: Re: LF: Measurement of antenna current To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Steve, I don't recall whether you ever mentioned what the length is of your coil. Is it an appreciable fraction of the overall antenna height? Also, I seem to recollect that some of the discussion involved excess turns at the "hot" end (top) of the loading coil. I wonder what might have been the outcome if you had removed them, rather than simply shorting them? 73, John From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14963 invoked from network); 7 May 2001 18:12:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 7 May 2001 18:12:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 13962 invoked from network); 7 May 2001 18:11:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 7 May 2001 18:11:36 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wpMF-00055t-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 07 May 2001 19:03:43 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.39]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wpME-00055o-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 07 May 2001 19:03:42 +0100 Received: from alg.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.80]) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14wpLi-000FWu-0B for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 7 May 2001 18:03:10 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3AF6D2C3.E82C000D@alg.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 17:52:19 +0100 From: "Steve Rawlings" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "LF Group" Subject: Re: LF: Measurement of antenna current References: <3AF5BC00.EEF6A5E@alg.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All, Many thanks for the advice regarding my 'missing' milliamps, both direct and via the Reflector. Naturally, after getting so many good ideas, I had no choice but to take advantage of the good weather (but high QRN again) and carry out some further tests. For reference, my original Email is included at the footer of this one. An illustration of the loading coil (prior to today's modifications) can be seen at: http://www.alg.demon.co.uk/radio/136/ldg_coil.htm#mark2 I was careful to check for system resonance before each measurement. 1) The first thing I did was to confirm yesterday's measurement. No change there: still 2.2 A at the cold end; and 1.8 A at the antenna - a difference of 0.4 A. 2) The next thing I did was to short the excess turns at the hot end of the loading coil (windings UE; UF; and UG in the illustration). Having done this, I then needed to add about another 800 uH at the cold end to restore resonance before I could make the measurements. Once resonance was obtained, I again measured 2.2 A at the cold end; and 1.8 A at the antenna. 3) Because the loading coil had been used on several occasions, I also made a visual check for evidence of earlier corona discharge around the connections to the excess turns (especially the top of UG). I saw no evidence that any arcing had taken place. 4) I then disconnected the connection to the excess turns (the link between UD and UE). After resonating the antenna, there was still 2.2 A at the cold end; and 1.8 A at the antenna 5) I then removed 15 turns from the cold end of the excess winding (UE), leaving a gap between UD & UF. There was still 2.2 A at the cold end; and 1.8 A at the antenna. 6) I then removed a further 21 turns (UF). There was still 2.2 A at the cold end; and 1.8 A at the antenna. 7) I now began to realise that what appeared to be all excess turns at the outset was not really the case. Evidently, the capacitance of the excess turns had been helping to bring the antenna to resonance, and I now found that I now needed to retain the remaining 18 turns of 'excess' turns (UG) to resonate the 12 m vertical. And that's how I've left it for now. To conclude: I found no significant difference in the antenna current - whether the excess turns were: - left connected, but open circuit; - left connected, but shorted; - disconnected from main winding; or, - physically removed from the coil former. But I'm not beat yet! I still want to know who is stealing my 0.4 A! >>From the responses received so far, remaining possibilities seem to be: i) Radiation from the coil; or, ii) Losses due to stray capacitance. The loading coil has a mean diameter of 470 mm; and is raised 400 mm off the patio slabs. The distance between the back wall of the house (brick construction) and the centre of the loading coil is 1700 mm. I hope to get some time this week to try out Laurie's suggestions, using large sheets of aluminium, or equivalent. Regards to all, Steve GW4ALG ******************* ORIGINAL TEXT *********************** Steve GW4ALG wrote: > > Hi All, > > Today, I made some more antenna current measurements on my 12 m > vertical (and my shiny new loading coil), using a thermocouple > meter. > > At resonance, the current into the base of the loading coil, was > 2.2 A. But when measuring the current into the antenna at the > hot end of the coil, the meter only indicated 1.8 A. I had > expected the reading to be the same at both ends of the coil. > > The loading coil has many more turns than is required to resonate > the 12 m vertical, so the connection to the antenna uses a tap > which is several turns down from the top of the coil. I've been > thinking that the excess turns at the top of the coil may be > causing the difference in current readings. (This may sound > silly, but in my mind's eye, I can sort of picture some of the > current in the coil going into the capacitance of the antenna; > and some current going into the capacitance of the unused turns.) > > Before I try removing the excess turns, I'd like to know whether > the current should indeed be the same at both ends of the loading > coil. Can anyone help? > > Regards to all, > Steve GW4ALG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1944 invoked from network); 7 May 2001 11:59:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 7 May 2001 11:59:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 20863 invoked from network); 7 May 2001 11:59:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 7 May 2001 11:59:20 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wjYV-0002hw-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 07 May 2001 12:51:59 +0100 Received: from mta07-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.47]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wjYU-0002hr-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 07 May 2001 12:51:58 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.104.101.9]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with SMTP id <20010507115126.DZXH285.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 12:51:26 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c0d6ec$0ee6b340$096568d5@oemcomputer> From: "mike.dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3AF5BC00.EEF6A5E@alg.demon.co.uk> Subject: LF: Re: Measurement of antenna current Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 12:51:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: GW4ALG wrote: > Today, I made some more antenna current measurements on my 12 m > vertical (and my shiny new loading coil), using a thermocouple > meter. > At resonance, the current into the base of the loading coil, was > 2.2 A. But when measuring the current into the antenna at the > hot end of the coil, the meter only indicated 1.8 A. I had > expected the reading to be the same at both ends of the coil. It should be the same, but I suspect that it is a significant part of the total length of the antenna, and is radiating. Mike, G3XDV From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1541 invoked from network); 7 May 2001 07:56:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 7 May 2001 07:56:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 18613 invoked from network); 7 May 2001 07:56:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 7 May 2001 07:56:05 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wflm-0001Br-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 07 May 2001 08:49:26 +0100 Received: from mail4.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.193.211]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wfll-0001Bm-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 07 May 2001 08:49:25 +0100 Received: from modem-4.lemonpeel-angel.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.37.4] helo=g3aqc) by mail4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14wflF-0004DG-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 07 May 2001 08:48:54 +0100 Message-ID: <001a01c0d6c1$d6ec0c80$0425893e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. Measurment of antenna current Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 07:48:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Steve,
It seems to me that the current difference can only be due to
1) Radiation from the coil (unlikely)
2)LOSSY capacitance from the coil/feeder to surroundings.
 
I found that my Ant. current varied about 10% depending on wether it was raining (or have recently been raining). I thought at first that this was insulator leakage or wet trees,but eventually identified discovered that the brick wall close to my loading coil was the culprit.I now have a large sheet of alluminiun against the wall which is grounded.So although there is still a lot of capacity from the coil to this screen it is not LOSSY. Now there is no variation,or at least very little. I hope this helps. 
73s Laurie.  
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23211 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 23:10:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 6 May 2001 23:10:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 26553 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 23:10:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 6 May 2001 23:10:13 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wXaf-0006Id-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 07 May 2001 00:05:25 +0100 Received: from mta6-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.19]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wXad-0006IY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 07 May 2001 00:05:24 +0100 Received: from rvernall ([202.27.178.119]) by mta6-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20010506230423.WAXF1606670.mta6-rme.xtra.co.nz@rvernall> for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 11:04:23 +1200 Message-ID: <000901c0d680$d2ed5120$77b21bca@rvernall> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3AF5BC00.EEF6A5E@alg.demon.co.uk> Subject: LF: Re: Measurement of antenna current Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 11:02:49 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Steve, I have some comments as to "where does the current go"? Comments are below: > Today, I made some more antenna current measurements on my 12 m > vertical (and my shiny new loading coil), using a thermocouple > meter. > > At resonance, the current into the base of the loading coil, was > 2.2 A. But when measuring the current into the antenna at the > hot end of the coil, the meter only indicated 1.8 A. I had > expected the reading to be the same at both ends of the coil. > > The loading coil has many more turns than is required to resonate > the 12 m vertical, so the connection to the antenna uses a tap > which is several turns down from the top of the coil. I've been > thinking that the excess turns at the top of the coil may be > causing the difference in current readings. (This may sound > silly, but in my mind's eye, I can sort of picture some of the > current in the coil going into the capacitance of the antenna; > and some current going into the capacitance of the unused turns.) > > Before I try removing the excess turns, I'd like to know whether > the current should indeed be the same at both ends of the loading > coil. Can anyone help? Self-capacitance between turns (each one to all others) involves a myriad of situations that has an equivalent net capacitance. Also there is a myriad of capacitance situations to "ground" potential. It is not possible to have a loading coil with no self or stray capacitance. I agree with the comment from Andy that it is undesirable to have "unused turns" at the "hot" end of the loading coil. It is generally bad practice to have any uneccesary capacitance to ground in the vertical "up wire", which is why commercial LF NDB antennas with multiple wire top loading taper to a single feedpoint, using bare wire (no dielectric coating that needlessly adds to self capacitance). The current meter reading at the "cold" side of the loading coil can be regarded as supplying current for antenna radiation as well as for parasitic losses in the loading coil. I am assuming that these currents are in the form of quadrature components (the antenna has significant far field radiation, the loading coil does not). To reconcile your readings of the "cold end" ammeter reading showing a vector resultant of 2.2 A, and a single current of 1.8 A going up the wire from the "hot end", doing a vector calculation shows that the current components that satisfy your observed meter readings are 1.8 +j1.26 amps for the resultant "cold end" current of 2.2 amps. The calculation of the quadrature (j) current is fairly sensitive to error in ammeter readings, but even with the figures advised, and if the explanation is reasonable, the current needed to furnish the self and stray capacitance in a loading coil is rather more than I had ever imagined before doing the sums. However, it is substantially "reactive current" so it is not a big factor in the overall loss budget of the antenna. Further investigation of the situation could be done with a dual channel oscilloscope, low capacitance probes, and a low level signal generator (so as to not fry a scope probe) to observe any phase difference between voltages at the "cold" and "hot" ends of the loading coil for a known tuned antenna. However, the source impedance also has an influence (practical transmitters present much lower impedances than 50 ohm test equipment) on the relative phasing of loading coil currents and voltages so it is preferable to test with a step down transformer to say 5 ohms if a 50 ohm signal generator is used.. This radio stuff is fascinating as to the ways in which RF currents can disappear into thin air :o) 73, Bob ZL2CA From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22892 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 21:54:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 6 May 2001 21:54:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 28013 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 21:54:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 6 May 2001 21:54:13 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wWPb-0005fV-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 22:49:55 +0100 Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.93] helo=rhenium) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wWPa-0005fQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 22:49:54 +0100 Received: from [213.120.111.67] (helo=mud) by rhenium with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 14wWP5-0002Cm-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 22:49:23 +0100 Message-ID: <005d01c0d676$c9eb4d20$436f78d5@btopenworld.com> From: "G3YXM" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <003e01c0d673$f5006200$9b9401d4@g4jnt> Subject: LF: Re: Re: Measurement of antenna current Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 22:52:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear all. I was always taught that the current at the top and bottom of the coil would be the same "unless the coil was radiating power", as your coil is significant in size relative to the total aerial system I can see that the power raiated from the coil could account for the difference? Or is that cobblers? Dave G3YXM. ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew Talbot To: Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 10:31 PM Subject: LF: Re: Measurement of antenna current > I would have thought the stray capacitance associated with the ammeter when > measuring current at the top of the coil would cause more than enough > detuning to reduce the current by this much. > > But there could still be a slight variation due to the effect you describe. > Wouldn't you be better tapping up from the bottom or using a variometer than > tapping down from the top ? > > Andy G4JNT > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Rawlings > To: LF Group > Date: 06 May 2001 22:11 > Subject: LF: Measurement of antenna current > > > >Hi All, > > > >Today, I made some more antenna current measurements on my 12 m > >vertical (and my shiny new loading coil), using a thermocouple > >meter. > > > >At resonance, the current into the base of the loading coil, was > >2.2 A. But when measuring the current into the antenna at the > >hot end of the coil, the meter only indicated 1.8 A. I had > >expected the reading to be the same at both ends of the coil. > > > >The loading coil has many more turns than is required to resonate > >the 12 m vertical, so the connection to the antenna uses a tap > >which is several turns down from the top of the coil. I've been > >thinking that the excess turns at the top of the coil may be > >causing the difference in current readings. (This may sound > >silly, but in my mind's eye, I can sort of picture some of the > >current in the coil going into the capacitance of the antenna; > >and some current going into the capacitance of the unused turns.) > > > >Before I try removing the excess turns, I'd like to know whether > >the current should indeed be the same at both ends of the loading > >coil. Can anyone help? > > > >Regards to all, > >Steve GW4ALG > > > > > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15288 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 21:39:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 6 May 2001 21:39:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 20514 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 21:38:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 6 May 2001 21:38:41 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wWAR-0005Yr-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 22:34:15 +0100 Received: from smtp-1.visp.telinco.net ([212.1.130.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wWAQ-0005Ym-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 22:34:14 +0100 Received: from [212.1.148.155] (helo=g4jnt) by smtp-1.visp.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 14wW4B-0007n8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 22:27:47 +0100 Message-ID: <003e01c0d673$f5006200$9b9401d4@g4jnt> From: "Andrew Talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: Measurement of antenna current Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 22:31:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I would have thought the stray capacitance associated with the ammeter when measuring current at the top of the coil would cause more than enough detuning to reduce the current by this much. But there could still be a slight variation due to the effect you describe. Wouldn't you be better tapping up from the bottom or using a variometer than tapping down from the top ? Andy G4JNT -----Original Message----- From: Steve Rawlings To: LF Group Date: 06 May 2001 22:11 Subject: LF: Measurement of antenna current >Hi All, > >Today, I made some more antenna current measurements on my 12 m >vertical (and my shiny new loading coil), using a thermocouple >meter. > >At resonance, the current into the base of the loading coil, was >2.2 A. But when measuring the current into the antenna at the >hot end of the coil, the meter only indicated 1.8 A. I had >expected the reading to be the same at both ends of the coil. > >The loading coil has many more turns than is required to resonate >the 12 m vertical, so the connection to the antenna uses a tap >which is several turns down from the top of the coil. I've been >thinking that the excess turns at the top of the coil may be >causing the difference in current readings. (This may sound >silly, but in my mind's eye, I can sort of picture some of the >current in the coil going into the capacitance of the antenna; >and some current going into the capacitance of the unused turns.) > >Before I try removing the excess turns, I'd like to know whether >the current should indeed be the same at both ends of the loading >coil. Can anyone help? > >Regards to all, >Steve GW4ALG > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12536 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 21:04:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 6 May 2001 21:04:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 1714 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 21:04:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 6 May 2001 21:04:02 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wVci-0005K3-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 21:59:24 +0100 Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.38]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wVch-0005Jy-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 21:59:23 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from alg.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.80]) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14wVcB-000CNm-0A for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 6 May 2001 20:58:51 +0000 Message-ID: <3AF5BC00.EEF6A5E@alg.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 22:02:56 +0100 From: "Steve Rawlings" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "LF Group" Subject: LF: Measurement of antenna current Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All, Today, I made some more antenna current measurements on my 12 m vertical (and my shiny new loading coil), using a thermocouple meter. At resonance, the current into the base of the loading coil, was 2.2 A. But when measuring the current into the antenna at the hot end of the coil, the meter only indicated 1.8 A. I had expected the reading to be the same at both ends of the coil. The loading coil has many more turns than is required to resonate the 12 m vertical, so the connection to the antenna uses a tap which is several turns down from the top of the coil. I've been thinking that the excess turns at the top of the coil may be causing the difference in current readings. (This may sound silly, but in my mind's eye, I can sort of picture some of the current in the coil going into the capacitance of the antenna; and some current going into the capacitance of the unused turns.) Before I try removing the excess turns, I'd like to know whether the current should indeed be the same at both ends of the loading coil. Can anyone help? Regards to all, Steve GW4ALG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20768 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 19:52:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 6 May 2001 19:52:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 26543 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 19:51:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 6 May 2001 19:51:48 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wUTt-0004ny-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 20:46:13 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.89]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wUTr-0004nt-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 20:46:12 +0100 Received: from alg.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.80]) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14wUTM-000Naj-0V for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 6 May 2001 20:45:40 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3AF58211.1312A631@alg.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 17:55:45 +0100 From: "Steve Rawlings" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re: Coupling between two antennas References: <001c01c0cee7$3843ab60$ba62883e@g3aqc> <000601c0cf47$124ae620$a7ce28c3@ericadodd> <001f01c0cfca$3bb5fda0$f4eb7ad5@dave> <3AEB2DBE.194E5A9C@alg.demon.co.uk> <003701c0d083$29305360$c16674d5@w8k3f0> <3AF41F62.BCD86ADD@alg.demon.co.uk> <002501c0d5a8$ecf253a0$9fb21bca@xtr743187> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: from GW4ALG> I'm very grateful to Bob ZL2CA for his important observations and comments. Firstly, a couple of points of clarification: 1) My loop is orientated in the vertical plane. It is a delta-loop, having a 65 m perimeter, fed at the top with balanced feeder. The line of the loop runs east-west, and therefore has deep nulls to the north and south - very handy for attenuating the noise sidebands from the Loran TX, located to the south of me (in France). Further details can be found at: http://www.alg.demon.co.uk/radio/136/loop.htm 2) The vertical antenna is located at one end of the loop. > The absolute gain of your short vertical will be higher than your > loop, so whatever figure of mutual coupling is found to apply, on > receive the loop will be affected more by the tuning situation of the > vertical than the other way round. With smaller frame loops for > receiving the impact of the vertical for reception on the loop is even > more pronounced (due to the much higher absolute gain of the vertical). I had not appreciated this important point before now. I guess it's one of those 'key facts' that every LFer needs to learn. > I find that on receive, unless the LF vertical transmitting antenna is > detuned, it receives local QRM from a fairly wide area and re-radiates > it to any LF receiving antenna on my property. Again, thanks for the tip, Bob. I'll try and detect that effect with my own set-up. Regards to all, Steve GW4ALG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12711 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 19:13:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 6 May 2001 19:13:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 26880 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 19:06:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 6 May 2001 19:06:09 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wTkV-0004TY-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 19:59:19 +0100 Received: from cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.195.174]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wTkU-0004TT-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 19:59:18 +0100 Received: from modem-85.belegost.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.137.213] helo=g3aqc) by cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14wTjz-00054t-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 19:58:47 +0100 Message-ID: <001601c0d656$411376a0$d589883e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. LF Tests Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 18:58:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Thanks John for the report. Looks like we can make it across in
less than ideal conditions. I will give it a rest for a few days and then try again. 73s Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 443 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 18:31:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 6 May 2001 18:31:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 9979 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 18:30:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 6 May 2001 18:30:39 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wTDf-0004C2-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 19:25:23 +0100 Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wTDe-0004Bx-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 19:25:22 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.97.82]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 15:24:12 -0300 Message-ID: <3AF5CFF9.55C2678D@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 18:28:09 -0400 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: lf tests Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Laurie . Your sigs were visible around 0325 for 15 minutes last night. Received G3AQ.... , Faded out before C was received 73 de John VE1ZJ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11559 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 17:57:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 6 May 2001 17:57:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 24599 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 17:56:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 6 May 2001 17:56:58 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wSa2-0003xb-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 18:44:26 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wSa1-0003xW-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 18:44:26 +0100 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.93.62]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 14:43:13 -0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3AF5C65D.AF768942@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 17:47:09 -0400 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: for John Currie References: <000201c0d4dd$1eb652a0$62bf883e@g3aqc> <3AF3762A.E8FA2A25@ns.sympatico.ca> <001601c0d63b$db61ad00$0a00a8c0@ThreeLakes.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Tnx Larry I will QSP 73 de John VE1ZJ Larry Kayser wrote: > John: > > I was told yesterday that Jack, VE1ZZ sent out a packet announcement on of > his final transmission on 137 at the end of last Month which was the end of > the 13 month initial LF project plan. If you are talking with him you might > let him know that Industry Canada has a revised LF project plan from myself > and further that they called by phone to specifically confirm that I was > asking for his (VE1ZZ) renewal within the project for a further two years. > They specifically did not ask for a cessation of operation and have given me > a strong indication they (IC) expect to approve the project for a further > two years. > > The usual disclaimers apply, they could of course phone tomorrow and say > turn it off etc but they have not asked that so far. I am continuing > regular tranmissions from here until further notice. > > Larry > VA3LK From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29018 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 15:00:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 6 May 2001 15:00:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 27004 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 15:00:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 6 May 2001 15:00:20 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wPuG-0002kB-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 15:53:08 +0100 Received: from tomts13.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.34] helo=tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wPuF-0002k6-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 15:53:07 +0100 Received: from server1 ([209.226.189.83]) by tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with SMTP id <20010506145204.CYVT25498.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@server1> for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 10:52:04 -0400 Message-ID: <001601c0d63b$db61ad00$0a00a8c0@ThreeLakes.ca> From: "Larry Kayser" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000201c0d4dd$1eb652a0$62bf883e@g3aqc> <3AF3762A.E8FA2A25@ns.sympatico.ca> Subject: LF: for John Currie Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 10:50:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: John: I was told yesterday that Jack, VE1ZZ sent out a packet announcement on of his final transmission on 137 at the end of last Month which was the end of the 13 month initial LF project plan. If you are talking with him you might let him know that Industry Canada has a revised LF project plan from myself and further that they called by phone to specifically confirm that I was asking for his (VE1ZZ) renewal within the project for a further two years. They specifically did not ask for a cessation of operation and have given me a strong indication they (IC) expect to approve the project for a further two years. The usual disclaimers apply, they could of course phone tomorrow and say turn it off etc but they have not asked that so far. I am continuing regular tranmissions from here until further notice. Larry VA3LK From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9060 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 14:59:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 6 May 2001 14:59:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 26265 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 14:58:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 6 May 2001 14:58:48 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wPtb-0002k4-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 15:52:27 +0100 Received: from neptune.imagenisp.com ([204.244.138.19]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wPta-0002jz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 15:52:26 +0100 Received: from jsm (gi71.imagenisp.com [204.244.17.98]) by neptune.imagenisp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id KHFCQTTY; Sun, 6 May 2001 07:51:56 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01c0d63c$560dca20$6211f4cc@jsm> From: "Steve McDonald" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3AD05D0D.D37FBF9F@usa.net> Subject: LF: VA3LK hrd report Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 07:53:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------020708020605000602010004" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020708020605000602010004 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Condx poor last night but initial attempt to hear Larry's ZL sked was encouraging. Distance is about 2200 miles. 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network); 6 May 2001 08:21:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 6 May 2001 08:21:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 13128 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 08:21:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 6 May 2001 08:21:38 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wJgw-0008WH-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 09:14:58 +0100 Received: from irwell.zetnet.co.uk ([194.247.47.48] helo=zetnet.co.uk ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wJgv-0008WC-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 09:14:57 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer (man-s177.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.45.48]) by zetnet.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id f468EPh12700 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 09:14:25 +0100 Message-ID: <002801c0d604$864117c0$302df7c2@oemcomputer> From: "John Rabson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3AF43F68.BF3379A7@netscapeonline.co.uk> Subject: LF: Re: LF GROUND SYS Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 09:11:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "gii3kev" To: "rsgb rsgb" Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 6:59 PM Subject: LF: LF GROUND SYS > 3. One other idea is to stake your property boundry with electric fence > posts, then get the electric wire that contains 2 strands of copper, 3 > strands of stainless steel, and a nylon strand. Get the right wire. Our local stockist has one brand which is 6 ohms per metre! 73 de John Rabson G3PAI From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 782 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 02:03:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 6 May 2001 02:03:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 25482 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 02:03:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 6 May 2001 02:03:15 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wDns-0005ZN-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 02:57:44 +0100 Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au ([203.26.10.16]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wDnq-0005ZI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 02:57:43 +0100 Received: from steve (ppp231.dyn154.pacific.net.au [210.23.154.231]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10970 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 11:57:09 +1000 Message-ID: <005b01c0d5d0$0ae0ea80$0301a8c0@steve> From: "Steve Olney" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3AF43F68.BF3379A7@netscapeonline.co.uk> Subject: LF: Re: LF GROUND SYS Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 11:58:15 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: G'day BIG KEV, Nice to hear from you again. You've been a bit quiet lately (miffed that you missed the TA train ?). > system was poor on LF and I totally agree and SAID so many times away > back Yes, we know, we know. I also know that you are not too familiar with digital technology, but I can assure you that email communication is (to use a non-technical term with which I am sure you are familiar) ALWAYS Q5 OVER HERE :-) >, some are slow on the uptake !!!!!!!!!! Self-criticism is always good for the soul :-) > as above but CONNECT the far end of each to pig/sheep galvanised mesh > wire that normally runs for acres and in some cases miles/kilometres > across my and neighbouring farmers fields, my neighbours do not even Tell me, does the pig/sheep fence completely circle your QTH. I get the feeling it does. Nothing could make a "ham" more at home :-) > competent CW operators, a dx qso is a doddle, no need for Wolf, Bark or > Wobble. Careful in the choice of your words, over here amongst us backward colonials, a "doddle" is any task that is so simple that even the village idiot can do it. Talking about words, I had occasion to converse with some friendly chaps from your area (so friendly that I had to triple check that they were from your area) on 2m a couple of days ago. Nice fellows, but I take everything back that I have ever said about Kiwis talking funny !!!! :-) I thought you all spoke English over there !!! :-) Love your material - keep it coming :-() 73s Steve Olney (VK2ZTO/AXSO - QF56IK : Lat -33 34 07, Long +150 44 40) ============================================= HomePage URLs: http://www.qsl.net/vk2zto http://www.zeta.org.au/~ollaneg Containing:- ULF, ELF, VLF & LF Experimentation InfraSonic Experimentation Laser Comms DX Amateur Radio Astronomy ============================================= From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13228 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 01:34:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 6 May 2001 01:34:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 17929 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 01:33:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 6 May 2001 01:33:55 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wDLC-0005Qn-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 02:28:06 +0100 Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au ([203.26.10.16]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14wDLA-0005ND-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 May 2001 02:28:05 +0100 Received: from steve (ppp231.dyn154.pacific.net.au [210.23.154.231]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09613 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 11:27:29 +1000 Message-ID: <003901c0d5cb$e5ef0c60$0301a8c0@steve> From: "Steve Olney" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3AF17CB8.29078.15F1913@localhost> <001501c0d552$9ca0eac0$21c536d2@mcalevey> Subject: LF: Re: Re: Off-topic: For non-UK readers Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 11:28:38 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: G'day Mike, > > "On a shoestring" is well understood in ZL. I have no idea what this > Australian durex is though. > Sticky-tape is the more common name for Durex over here. BTW, our chemist shops are condominiums over here. Steve VK2ZTO From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21838 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 21:22:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 5 May 2001 21:22:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 17983 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 21:22:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 5 May 2001 21:22:24 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14w9Qu-0003VF-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 22:17:44 +0100 Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14w9Qs-0003VA-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 22:17:43 +0100 Received: from xtr743187 ([202.27.178.159]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20010505211636.LXJE2184114.mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz@xtr743187> for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 09:16:36 +1200 Message-ID: <002501c0d5a8$ecf253a0$9fb21bca@xtr743187> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <001c01c0cee7$3843ab60$ba62883e@g3aqc> <000601c0cf47$124ae620$a7ce28c3@ericadodd> <001f01c0cfca$3bb5fda0$f4eb7ad5@dave> <3AEB2DBE.194E5A9C@alg.demon.co.uk> <003701c0d083$29305360$c16674d5@w8k3f0> <3AF41F62.BCD86ADD@alg.demon.co.uk> Subject: LF: Re: Coupling between two antennas Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 09:15:57 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Steve, Do I take it that your loop lies in a horizontal plane? Most of the frame loops for LF receiving are in a vertical plane. Thus there is a further matter of polarisation to consider (and it is near field polarisation) for mutual coupling considerations. The absolute gain of your short vertical will be higher than your loop, so whatever figure of mutual coupling is found to apply, on receive the loop will be affected more by the tuning situation of the vertical than the other way round. With smaller frame loops for receiving the impact of the vertical for reception on the loop is even more pronounced (due to the much higher absolute gain of the vertical). I find that on receive, unless the LF vertical transmitting antenna is detuned, it receives local QRM from a fairly wide area and re-radiates it to any LF receiving antenna on my property. Your measurement is very interesting information. Another application of it is to confirm that survival of any pre-amplifiers on receiving antennas when transmitting on another antenna. 73, Bob ZL2CA Subject: LF: Coupling between two antennas > Hi All, from GW4ALG. > > You may recall that, regarding my two LF antennas (a single-turn > balanced loop of 65 m perimeter; and my 12 m vertical _in very > close proximity_ to the loop), I wrote: > > > . . . when monitoring the TX SWR into the resonant vertical . . ., > > I found no change in SWR when: > > - tuning the loop antenna either side of resonance (with the > > coax-side of the tuner terminated in 50 ohms); > > - disconnecting the shack end of the balanced feeder from the > > tuner; > > - applying a short circuit to the shack end of the balanced > > feeder; or, > > - grounding the shorted balanced feeder. > > . . . I'm very surprised that there appears to be no significant > > interaction between the two antennas. > > Dick PA0SE commented: > > Even when the coupling between vertical and loop is so weak that > > the SWR of the vertical does not change when tuning the loop the > > coupling can still be strong enough for signals from the vertical > > getting into the loop when receiving. > > To try and quantify the degree of coupling between my two > antennas, I carried out the following procedure: > 1) The loop antenna & tuner system was tuned to 135.9 kHz and > terminated in a 50 ohm carbon resistor. > 2) My 400 watt transmitter was operated at 135.9 kHz into the > resonant 12 m vertical. > 3) The voltage across the 50 ohm resistor was measured using a > Tektronix 465 oscilloscope. > > The measured voltage was 8 volts peak-to-peak, corresponding to a > power of about 60 mW. > > I then did the test again, this time feeding power into the loop, > and measuring the voltage developed across the 50 ohm resistor > (which was now used to terminate the coax feeder from the 12 m > vertical antenna). Again, I measured 8 volts peak-to-peak across > the resistor. > > I had expected greater coupling between my two antennas. In > practice, there appears to be an isolation of something > approaching 40 dB between the balanced magnetic loop and the 12 m > vertical. > > Regards to all, > Steve GW4ALG > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19330 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 20:14:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 5 May 2001 20:14:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 13101 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 20:14:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 5 May 2001 20:14:25 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14w8Lv-0002wZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 21:08:31 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from [194.200.20.13] (helo=mailhost.netscapeonline.co.uk) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14w8Lu-0002wU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 21:08:30 +0100 Received: from userby20.netscapeonline.co.uk ([62.125.147.145] helo=netscapeonline.co.uk) by mailhost.netscapeonline.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.02 #1) id 14w8FZ-0007hp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 20:02:01 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3AF43F68.BF3379A7@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 18:59:04 +0100 From: "gii3kev" Organization: Netscape Online member X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rsgb rsgb" Subject: LF: LF GROUND SYS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: G3AQC in a recent message stated that the normal radial ground system was poor on LF and I totally agree and SAID so many times away back, some are slow on the uptake !!!!!!!!!! 1. Use insulated radials as opposed to buried bare wire if you must and use as many as possible and as long as possible. Earthing with copper rods at the centre of the radial system or at the far ends seems to make little or no difference to ground losses, but it might help in some cases. 2. The other approach that I use is to run out a few insulated radials as above but CONNECT the far end of each to pig/sheep galvanised mesh wire that normally runs for acres and in some cases miles/kilometres across my and neighbouring farmers fields, my neighbours do not even know that I am connected to their fences hi. Fortunately I live in the country and can do this and it saves me a lot of trouble engineering an earth system. 3. One other idea is to stake your property boundry with electric fence posts, then get the electric wire that contains 2 strands of copper, 3 strands of stainless steel, and a nylon strand. Connect this in the way intended to all the insulated fence posts with one end going to your LF tx earth, the other end floats giving you an insulated earth system. You can customise this method to suit your particular needs, around the perimiter of your property, across it, zig zag etc. This wire comes in something like 200 - 500 metre rolls, you get a lot of wire, and could also be used for antenna wire. As said before the best dx antenna for LF is a vertical as high as possible, top loaded with a good array of wires covering as much ground as possible but not overlapping each other. Having achieved the above, and suitable propagation, and a couple of competent CW operators, a dx qso is a doddle, no need for Wolf, Bark or Wobble. 73 de Mal/G3KEV/Scarboro From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12483 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 19:19:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 5 May 2001 19:19:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 14146 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 19:19:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 5 May 2001 19:19:11 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14w7Vq-0002ar-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 20:14:42 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.39]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14w7Vp-0002am-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 20:14:41 +0100 Received: from alg.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.80]) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14w7VJ-000Nl2-0B for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 5 May 2001 19:14:09 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3AF451F4.A09A7438@alg.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 20:18:12 +0100 From: "Steve Rawlings" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re: Coupling between two antennas References: <001201c0d58d$5801ec80$c48801d4@g4jnt> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Andy G4JNT wrote: > 8V p-p in 50 ohms is 0.16W, not 60mW > > So you have 34dB coupling - you were right to expect more than 40dB ! That's more like it! (I think my conversion to rms went wrong.) I'll use the formula below in future. (Epk)^2 Power = ------- 2 R Many thanks Andy. By the way, the QRN (static) on 136 kHz has been high here in Chepstow for a couple of days, and is currently peaking S9. But I did manage QSOs earlier today with F6CNI (RST 569), G8RW (469), and G3OLB (599). I also heard PA0SE (569). Regards to all, Steve GW4ALG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3475 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 18:20:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 5 May 2001 18:20:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 12599 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 18:19:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 5 May 2001 18:19:56 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14w6b2-000281-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 19:16:00 +0100 Received: from smtp-1.visp.telinco.net ([212.1.130.1]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14w6b1-00027w-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 19:16:00 +0100 Received: from [212.1.136.196] (helo=g4jnt) by smtp-1.visp.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 14w6Il-0007d9-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 18:57:08 +0100 Message-ID: <001201c0d58d$5801ec80$c48801d4@g4jnt> From: "Andrew Talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: Coupling between two antennas Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 19:00:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >The measured voltage was 8 volts peak-to-peak, corresponding to a >power of about 60 mW. 8V p-p in 50 ohms is 0.16W, not 60mW So you have 34dB coupling - you were right to expect more than 40dB ! Andy G4jnT From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 11977 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 17:30:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 5 May 2001 17:30:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 19133 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 17:30:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 5 May 2001 17:30:01 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14w5oY-0001gU-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 18:25:54 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mailout03.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.81]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14w5oX-0001gP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 18:25:53 +0100 Received: from fwd03.sul.t-online.com by mailout03.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14w5o5-0005q4-03; Sat, 05 May 2001 19:25:25 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from (0482183881-0001@[193.159.25.239]) by fwd03.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14w5o8-1tj8CGC; Sat, 5 May 2001 19:25:28 +0200 From: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <6b.13dab896.28252382@aol.com> Subject: Re: LF: Re: g3aqc beacon image X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 19:25:28 +0200 Message-ID: <14w5o8-1tj8CGC@fwd03.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0482183881-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: DL4YHF@aol.com schrieb: > Hi Uwe and Laurie, > > the reason why Uwe's nice picture of Laurie's transmission looks quite sharp > is simply because the FFT length used there is quite low. This gives nice > sharp edges of the DFCW signal, but also reduces the spectral resolution. > If you have to dig deep in the noise because you are on the other side of the > pond, you must use a higher FFT length to have a more smoothing effect (I > guess ARGO does something like that automatically when set to a "very slow > QRSS" mode). > > So thanks for the picture Uwe, I'd like to know what settings you were using > when making the spectrogram (my own spectrograms are a little more "blurred" > if that's the proper word). > > 73's Wolf (DL4YHF; DF0WD) JO42FD. > > Hi Wolf es all, the settings were as follows: 1. on via alert func (rx on 135,92 kHz) 2. components: sound directly into analyzer 3. QRG: axis 795 to 805 Hz resolution 0,0421 Hz (Band 0 to 1378,13 Hz) 4. Sample: nom es calib 11025 / 4 5. FFT: type real average 0 anti-alias on 6. scroll 2sec. Wolf, tks for SpecLab1.65. its fantastic! Loran Watcher settings per click, marvelous! regards Uwe/dj8wx From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25953 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 17:02:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 5 May 2001 17:02:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 6839 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 17:01:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 5 May 2001 17:01:53 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14w5Mv-0001Rb-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 17:57:21 +0100 Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14w5Mu-0001RW-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 17:57:20 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.80.95]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 13:56:11 -0300 Message-ID: <3AF469D4.7A8B80D3@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 17:00:05 -0400 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: lf tests Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all lasr night G3AQC was "O" copy here at 0215 73 all de John VE1ZJ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19652 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 15:51:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 5 May 2001 15:51:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 3347 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 15:51:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 5 May 2001 15:51:09 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14w4CN-0000ta-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 16:42:23 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14w4CM-0000tV-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 16:42:22 +0100 Received: from alg.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.80]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14w4Br-000B7G-0W for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 5 May 2001 16:41:51 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3AF41F62.BCD86ADD@alg.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 16:42:26 +0100 From: "Steve Rawlings" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Coupling between two antennas References: <001c01c0cee7$3843ab60$ba62883e@g3aqc> <000601c0cf47$124ae620$a7ce28c3@ericadodd> <001f01c0cfca$3bb5fda0$f4eb7ad5@dave> <3AEB2DBE.194E5A9C@alg.demon.co.uk> <003701c0d083$29305360$c16674d5@w8k3f0> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All, from GW4ALG. You may recall that, regarding my two LF antennas (a single-turn balanced loop of 65 m perimeter; and my 12 m vertical _in very close proximity_ to the loop), I wrote: > . . . when monitoring the TX SWR into the resonant vertical . . ., > I found no change in SWR when: > - tuning the loop antenna either side of resonance (with the > coax-side of the tuner terminated in 50 ohms); > - disconnecting the shack end of the balanced feeder from the > tuner; > - applying a short circuit to the shack end of the balanced > feeder; or, > - grounding the shorted balanced feeder. > . . . I'm very surprised that there appears to be no significant > interaction between the two antennas. Dick PA0SE commented: > Even when the coupling between vertical and loop is so weak that > the SWR of the vertical does not change when tuning the loop the > coupling can still be strong enough for signals from the vertical > getting into the loop when receiving. To try and quantify the degree of coupling between my two antennas, I carried out the following procedure: 1) The loop antenna & tuner system was tuned to 135.9 kHz and terminated in a 50 ohm carbon resistor. 2) My 400 watt transmitter was operated at 135.9 kHz into the resonant 12 m vertical. 3) The voltage across the 50 ohm resistor was measured using a Tektronix 465 oscilloscope. The measured voltage was 8 volts peak-to-peak, corresponding to a power of about 60 mW. I then did the test again, this time feeding power into the loop, and measuring the voltage developed across the 50 ohm resistor (which was now used to terminate the coax feeder from the 12 m vertical antenna). Again, I measured 8 volts peak-to-peak across the resistor. I had expected greater coupling between my two antennas. In practice, there appears to be an isolation of something approaching 40 dB between the balanced magnetic loop and the 12 m vertical. Regards to all, Steve GW4ALG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19481 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 12:49:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 5 May 2001 12:49:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 19764 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 12:48:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 5 May 2001 12:48:58 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14w1PQ-00086Q-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 13:43:40 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from jaws.cisco.com ([198.135.0.150] helo=cisco.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14w1PP-00086L-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 13:43:39 +0100 Received: from virgin.net (stbryant-isdn-home.cisco.com [10.49.137.202]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA11392 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 13:42:37 +0100 (BST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3AF3F506.BFD957FD@virgin.net> Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 13:41:43 +0100 From: "Stewart Bryant" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re: On-topic References: <004401c0d40f$2707e280$dc1697d4@oemcomputer> <001101c0d4d7$4a796220$7be086d4@ericadodd> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > > Balloons need to be at least 1m in diameter and made of mylar to be of any > use for supporting antennas. Not necessarily so. A friend of mine has had success with 4' latex balloons inflated to about 1m. He has been running up to about 150', and gets between one and two weekends out of a fill. Stewart G3YSX From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16109 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 11:38:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 5 May 2001 11:38:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 16290 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 11:38:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 5 May 2001 11:38:27 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14w0IC-0007dw-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 12:32:08 +0100 Received: from smtp01.web.de ([194.45.170.210] helo=smtp.web.de) by post.thorcom.com with smtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14w0IA-0007dr-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 12:32:06 +0100 Received: from arbeitspc by smtp.web.de with smtp (freemail 4.2.1.8 #22) id m14w0HY-007QhnC; Sat, 5 May 2001 13:31 +0200 Message-ID: <006901c0d556$ef072320$0200a8c0@arbeitspc> From: "Michael Oexner" To: "LF" , "NDBLIST" Subject: LF: Fw: SAQ transmission, Preliminary Info. Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 13:31:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, FYI vy 73 + gd DX, Michael RX: ICOM R75, ICOM R71A, Sony ICF-SW7600G, W&G SPM-3 Antenna: Radio West 22.5" ferrite loop with amplifier, 20m longwire, Wellbrook ALA 100 Location: Roschbach, Germany N 49°15' E 8°07' / Locator JN49BF Member: CSDXC, DSWCI, EUNL, LWCA, MWC Editor of "The European NDB Handbook" e-mail: michael.oexner@web.de ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lars Kålland" Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 12:34 PM Subject: SAQ transmission, Preliminary Info. PRELIMINARY INFORMATION There will be a transmission from GRIMETON RADIO/SAQ on frequency 17,2 kHz CW with the Alexanderson alternator even this year, on Sunday July 1st at 08:30 and 08:45 and another transmission at 12:30 and 12:45 UTC. QSL-reports are kindly received via Amateur Radio on the following frequencies with the call "SA6Q": CW on LF 136 kHz and HF 7015, 14035, 18075, 21030 kHz. SSB on HF 3740, 7050, 14215, 18145 kHz. Two stations will be used. Please note that we are also using LF 136 kHz this time. QSL-reports also via e-mail: info@alexander.n.se or via fax: +46-340-674195 or via my home call SM6NM via bureau or direct via callbook address. Information will later also be available on website www.alexander.n.se A FINAL INFORMATION will be sent out via e-mail a day or so before the transmission. Have a nice summer! Regards SM6NM Lars KÅLLAND From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22845 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 11:10:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 5 May 2001 11:10:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 2946 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 11:09:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 5 May 2001 11:09:59 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vzpY-0007QK-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 12:02:32 +0100 Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.13]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vzpW-0007QF-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 12:02:31 +0100 Received: from mcalevey ([210.54.197.33]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20010505110124.GPRI2259446.mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz@mcalevey> for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 23:01:24 +1200 Message-ID: <001501c0d552$9ca0eac0$21c536d2@mcalevey> From: "mcalevey" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3AF17CB8.29078.15F1913@localhost> Subject: LF: Re: Off-topic: For non-UK readers Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 22:59:49 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Mike "On a shoestring" is well understood in ZL. I have no idea what this Australian durex is though. Mike ZL4OL From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 6751 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 09:42:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 5 May 2001 09:42:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 20169 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 09:42:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 5 May 2001 09:42:37 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vyUu-0006kj-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 10:37:08 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.7]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vyUt-0006ke-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 10:37:07 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.10.) id l.6b.13dab896 (4398) for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 05:36:02 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <6b.13dab896.28252382@aol.com> Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 05:36:02 EDT Subject: LF: Re: g3aqc beacon image To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows DE sub 217 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hi Uwe and Laurie,

the reason why Uwe's nice picture of Laurie's transmission looks quite sharp
is simply because the FFT length used there is quite low. This gives nice
sharp edges of the DFCW signal, but also reduces the spectral resolution.
If you have to dig deep in the noise because you are on the other side of the
pond, you must use a higher FFT length to have a more smoothing effect (I
guess ARGO does something like that automatically when set to a "very slow
QRSS" mode).

So thanks for the picture Uwe, I'd like to know what settings you were using
when making the spectrogram (my own spectrograms are a little more "blurred"
if that's the proper word).

73's  Wolf  (DL4YHF; DF0WD)  JO42FD.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13407 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 08:06:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 5 May 2001 08:06:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 5309 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 08:05:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 5 May 2001 08:05:56 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vwvi-0005w6-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 08:56:42 +0100 Received: from cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.195.172]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vwvh-0005vy-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 08:56:41 +0100 Received: from modem-96.barahir.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.134.224] helo=g3aqc) by cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14vwvB-0007bJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 08:56:09 +0100 Message-ID: <002c01c0d530$8394fde0$e086883e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. LF tests Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 07:43:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Whoops !! I cant count now, for 3 read 2. Put it down to anno- domini. No change in freq, still 135.922 will try again tonight.
73s Laurie. 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13065 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 08:06:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 5 May 2001 08:06:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 5134 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 08:05:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 5 May 2001 08:05:35 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vwvj-0005wA-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 08:56:43 +0100 Received: from cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.195.172]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vwvh-0005vz-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 08:56:42 +0100 Received: from modem-96.barahir.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.134.224] helo=g3aqc) by cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14vwvD-0007bJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 08:56:11 +0100 Message-ID: <002d01c0d530$847ffa20$e086883e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: LF Re. G3AQC beacon Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 07:55:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Many thanks Uwe for the nice pic. I was running with very long gaps 25secs, total element length 60 secs. Looks like SpecLab does a better job separating the elements than ARGO or mebbe
I hav'nt got it set up properly. I went to the big gaps to help in the present poor/noisy conditions. I certainly like the vert. markers this really would help in identifying the characters in noise etc.
Glad you found me after my mistake in announcing  my freq.
73s Laurie. 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7804 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 23:44:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 4 May 2001 23:44:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 10405 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 23:43:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 4 May 2001 23:43:40 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vp8p-0002NM-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 00:37:43 +0100 Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vp8o-0002NH-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 May 2001 00:37:43 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.97.31]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 20:36:33 -0300 Message-ID: <3AF3762A.E8FA2A25@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 23:40:26 -0400 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: lf Tests References: <000201c0d4dd$1eb652a0$62bf883e@g3aqc> Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hi Laurie is freq 135.933 or 135.922
73 de John VE1ZJ
Laurie Mayhead wrote:
Hi John,Beacon running now, 135.933, 30sec dots.Sun fairly quiet but lots of QRN over here !73s  Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15009 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 22:51:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 4 May 2001 22:51:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 12299 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 22:51:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 4 May 2001 22:51:22 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14voJT-0001wD-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 23:44:39 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mailout00.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.16]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14voJR-0001w8-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 23:44:37 +0100 Received: from fwd02.sul.t-online.com by mailout00.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14voIx-0006b4-01; Sat, 05 May 2001 00:44:07 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from (0482183881-0001@[217.87.109.99]) by fwd02.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14voJ1-13Cn2GC; Sat, 5 May 2001 00:44:11 +0200 From: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3AF33E8D.7F34E74E@ns.sympatico.ca> Subject: LF: g3aqc beacon X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------020703010806010000080406" Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 00:44:11 +0200 Message-ID: <14voJ1-13Cn2GC@fwd02.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0482183881-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020703010806010000080406 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Laurie es all, nice beacon signs. pic detached. regards Uwe/dj8wx --------------020703010806010000080406 Content-Type: image/gif; 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YoTJbs1YgN3U5hROi8XJK03JZb1LIl1ZfQXZNkRTxKxJmSTNgGxP+FzHyuxYdL3XcjxAf93O hpXNkD3LarXWxfxNtZRXmJVXpe3J0sRRosVNpzVPdUVZbbTN6iRSNnVZ/CTXgR1NpN3ZwRza pwXZqX3KoxXbp//lS5/sSqMNWW482L3MVpqEWqNM17kl1pp11qZl25rVW77tWIqU25uEUK71 WH3F1fqky1/V1R382Ix0WLPl2bqtR1rNVOf81pjtVVht10e1w8KtT0wdWVedxo3NWVZE0V29 1MZ9SdNlXFqE1MwdTtbt1dUFT6xl1M1VXNnT055lzNX73UDVvMLUyBwdvSjFV+S9veFdXhEl 3uMLUvKzRufN00HNPAvNPeuF3u713u8F3/AV3/El3/I13/NFX+Fjx4TV0SVk3/SF3/g1X9h8 UqCV3/vFX/GlXyZl3vz13//N0AqE2MOc0hv9VpkF4ARWYN/zyFU0V7LdxTlNXeBd4ApYtmDX E92iXF9HPcyhvNgLBuEQFl647csD/tzX3cyRFeEVZuHDjVjLtVmDpVeBbOEatuHNA1YHzFf1 dF9VVNMbBuIgvjw95V4hNuIjrjwiRuIlZuImduInhgniKJbiKebQgAAAOw== --------------020703010806010000080406-- From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7441 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 22:08:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 4 May 2001 22:08:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 17601 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 22:07:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 4 May 2001 22:07:35 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vnc2-0001cE-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 22:59:46 +0100 Received: from mail6.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.193.212]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vnc1-0001c9-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 22:59:45 +0100 Received: from modem-98.elured.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.191.98] helo=g3aqc) by mail6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14vnbU-0000PP-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 22:59:12 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c0d4dd$1eb652a0$62bf883e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: lf Tests Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 21:32:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hi John,
Beacon running now, 135.933, 30sec dots.
Sun fairly quiet but lots of QRN over here !
73s  Laurie. 
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18954 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 20:37:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 4 May 2001 20:37:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 19260 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 20:36:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 4 May 2001 20:36:34 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vmDZ-0000x0-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 21:30:25 +0100 Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vmDY-0000wY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 21:30:24 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.83.88]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 16:39:15 -0300 Message-ID: <3AF33E8D.7F34E74E@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 19:43:09 -0400 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: lf tests Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all Will anyone be tranamitting tonight? New month. I'm hoping to see at least one Eu each month this summer 73 de John VE1ZJ From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2723 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 20:22:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 4 May 2001 20:22:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 9804 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 20:21:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 4 May 2001 20:21:50 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vlzG-0000pk-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 21:15:38 +0100 Received: from amersham.mail.uk.easynet.net ([195.40.1.45]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vlzF-0000pf-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 21:15:38 +0100 Received: from ericadodd (tnt-18-123.easynet.co.uk [212.134.224.123]) by amersham.mail.uk.easynet.net (Postfix) with SMTP id C08DF17498 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 21:14:59 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <001101c0d4d7$4a796220$7be086d4@ericadodd> From: "g3ldo" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <004401c0d40f$2707e280$dc1697d4@oemcomputer> Subject: LF: Re: On-topic Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 21:16:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Johan, SM6LKM, said: >A long thin wire tied to a cluster of helium filled Durex units will >dramatically increase the effective height of the transmitting antenna! I didn't find these type of balloons very successful and a helium filled Durex would only lift its own weight. Furthermore the helium leaked out of them fairly quickly. These experiments confirmed the neighbours worst fears about the character living at number 37. Balloons need to be at least 1m in diameter and made of mylar to be of any use for supporting antennas. As I understand it 'Shoestring' has come to mean a bargain or low cost. The meaning of 'cheap' is changing from 'low cost' to 'poor quality' Regards, Peter, G3LDO e-mail Web From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24010 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 18:12:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 4 May 2001 18:12:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 20557 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 18:11:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 4 May 2001 18:11:32 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vjx9-0008LZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 19:05:19 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mailout06.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.19]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vjx8-0008LU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 19:05:18 +0100 Received: from fwd06.sul.t-online.com by mailout06.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14vjwf-0001Er-0A; Fri, 04 May 2001 20:04:49 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from (0482183881-0001@[62.227.109.111]) by fwd06.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14vjwl-1rhjtYC; Fri, 4 May 2001 20:04:55 +0200 From: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000301c0d41d$e49b58a0$8d107bd5@default> Subject: Re: LF: re DDH48 X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 20:04:55 +0200 Message-ID: <14vjwl-1rhjtYC@fwd06.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0482183881-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Alan, Hajo, Markus es all, tks for the replies. 1. equations ok. there are mny other possibs. but 2. no modulation-bursts from DCF and no other characteristicas. only clear RTTY. ok, Markus, the big shift on 155kHz is still suspect. 3. DF: 137,4kHz nice zero with the loop to DDH48. 155kHz no DF possib because of QRM by 152kHz-BC. 4. Hajo, my qth is jo43sv (50km north of Hamburg). there is a monitoring station from the regulierungsbehörde (german FCC) in my vicinity (my old employer). but they are technical deaf on lf! so I have got to see the gents from DDH48. sri no other OM does receive the emissions. regards Uwe/dj8wx From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10895 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 17:10:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 4 May 2001 17:10:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 26721 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 17:10:03 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 4 May 2001 17:10:03 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vizE-0007nj-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 18:03:24 +0100 Received: from rabacal.direct.ca ([199.60.229.8]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vizC-0007ne-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 18:03:23 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from bc-whi-a53-02-79.look.ca ([204.244.87.175]) by rabacal.direct.ca with smtp (Exim 2.12 #7) id 14viyc-0007Mg-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 4 May 2001 10:02:47 -0700 X-Sender: eldridge@direct.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Bob Eldridge " Subject: Re: LF: Off-topic: For non-UK readers Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 10:02:47 -0700 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: >Hi Mike, I guess Churchill was right we really are separated by a common >language. But in this case all is well . On this side of Atlantic " on a >shoestring " also means without enough money. That's an interesting slant. To me it means "for very little money", not necessarily TOO little. Whether it is enough or not is another matter. Many very large businesses were started "on a shoestring" and are now worth billions. Bob VE7BS From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9908 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 14:02:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 4 May 2001 14:02:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 22808 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 14:02:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 4 May 2001 14:02:12 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vg36-0006Oo-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 14:55:12 +0100 Received: from imo-m01.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.4]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vg32-0006Oj-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 14:55:08 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from MarkusVester@aol.com by imo-m01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.10.) id l.20.15fa640f (4572) for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 09:53:59 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkusVester@aol.com Message-ID: <20.15fa640f.28240e77@aol.com> Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:53:59 EDT Subject: LF: Re DDH48 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 72 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Uwe, Alan, Alan's hint about the IMP freqs fits neatly, including the FSK shift: 2*(147.3[+-42Hz]) - 138.83 = 155.77[+-85] , 147.3[+-42] + 128.93 - 138.83 = 137.4 [+-42] . In this case, you should also be able to notice DCF's tell-tale modulation bursts on the IMPs. I don't see any of these IMPs at my QTH. Perhaps there is some "rusty-nail" type of nonlinearity, generating intermodulation locally. Can you DF it with your loop? Or use a portable LW radio, tuned to Deutschlandfunk's USB above 153 kHz? 73 es good luck de Markus, DF6NM From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24828 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 08:57:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 4 May 2001 08:57:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 23183 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 08:56:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 4 May 2001 08:56:59 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vbFl-00046T-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 09:47:57 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from [213.2.16.106] (helo=rsgb.org.uk) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vbFh-00046M-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 09:47:53 +0100 Received: from miked by rsgb.org.uk with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.8.7.5.R) for ; Fri, 04 May 2001 09:32:29 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Mike Dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:32:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: LF: Off topic - thanks Message-ID: <3AF2772B.24368.1A6497@localhost> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Return-Path: miked@mail Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Many thanks to those who replied to my language query, both direct and via the reflector. Apologies for the off topic message but it seemed a quick way to solve a problem. I will restrict my messages to LF info from now on. Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29787 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 07:51:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 4 May 2001 07:51:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 22302 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 07:50:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 4 May 2001 07:50:38 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vaG4-0003cR-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 08:44:12 +0100 X-Priority: 3 Received: from bob.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vaG0-0003cM-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 08:44:08 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: by bob.dera.gov.uk; (8.8.8/1.3/10May95) id IAA18537; Fri, 4 May 2001 08:47:26 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 16533 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 08:36:36 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk (172.16.9.10) by baton.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 4 May 2001 08:36:36 -0000 Received: by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk; id IAA28011; Fri, 4 May 2001 08:32:30 GMT Received: from unknown(10.71.64.31) by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk via smap (3.2) id xma027983; Fri, 4 May 01 08:32:22 GMT Received: from FRN-MAIL-3.dera.gov.uk (unverified) by mailguard.dera.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 08:49:52 +0100 Received: by frn-mail-3.dera.gov.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 4 May 2001 08:42:22 +0100 Message-ID: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C0482@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Off-topic: For non-UK readers Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:42:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Many years ago I had to give a presentation on a student project and used the term 'cheap' to explain my choice of components. The instructor immediately pulled me up and insisted the correct expression was "Cost effective" (this was the civil service after all) Mind you, whenever most of us these days hear that expression, we know it is just a euphemism for cheap ! Andy G4JNT > -----Original Message----- > From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@virgin.net] > Sent: 2001-05-04 08:03 > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Subject: Re: LF: Off-topic: For non-UK readers > > > > > Mike Dennison wrote: > > > With apologies to UK readers, I am using this forum to survey non-UK > > amateurs about the term "on a shoestring" which the RSGB > may be using in > > the title of a future project. > > This sounds worrying. > > I have the view that the continual reference to "cheap" > actually does amateur > radio more harm than good. There is an importance difference > in both effectiveness > and image between cheap and economical. > > Stewart G3YSX > > > > > > -- The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s). For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is prohibited and may be unlawful. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 18591 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 07:12:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 4 May 2001 07:12:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 25576 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 07:11:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 4 May 2001 07:11:47 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vZds-0003Im-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 08:04:44 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from jaws.cisco.com ([198.135.0.150] helo=cisco.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vZdm-0003Ih-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 08:04:39 +0100 Received: from virgin.net (stbryant-isdn-home.cisco.com [10.49.137.202]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA17297 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 08:03:34 +0100 (BST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3AF2540D.FEDBBCF@virgin.net> Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 08:02:38 +0100 From: "Stewart Bryant" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Off-topic: For non-UK readers References: <3AF17CB8.29078.15F1913@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Mike Dennison wrote: > With apologies to UK readers, I am using this forum to survey non-UK > amateurs about the term "on a shoestring" which the RSGB may be using in > the title of a future project. This sounds worrying. I have the view that the continual reference to "cheap" actually does amateur radio more harm than good. There is an importance difference in both effectiveness and image between cheap and economical. Stewart G3YSX From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13035 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 01:13:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 4 May 2001 01:13:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 13519 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 01:12:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 4 May 2001 01:12:48 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vU1u-0000iY-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 02:05:10 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from m11.boston.juno.com ([64.136.24.74]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vU1t-0000iT-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 04 May 2001 02:05:09 +0100 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"yokUgcxCbtTP7XLrpefewHdXox9FTXWzt0KHEjO63Hxk3lUNpID1XA=="> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: (from riese-k3djc@juno.com) by m11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id F4KB397K; Thu, 03 May 2001 21:04:29 EDT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 20:41:03 -0400 Subject: Re: LF: Off-topic: For non-UK readers Message-ID: <20010503.210131.-785037.6.riese-k3djc@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "BOB RIESE" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: To avoid knocking a YL up [US idiom]. Ahh Thought as much Bob From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16444 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 22:19:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 3 May 2001 22:19:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 27821 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 22:19:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 3 May 2001 22:19:48 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vRMV-0007wI-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 23:14:15 +0100 Received: from carbon.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.92]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vRMU-0007wD-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 23:14:15 +0100 Received: from [213.123.16.141] (helo=default) by carbon.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 14vRM0-0001IM-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 23:13:44 +0100 Message-ID: <000301c0d41d$e49b58a0$8d107bd5@default> From: "Alan Melia" To: "LF-Group" Subject: LF: re DDH48 Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 21:47:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Uwe, just a thought from here....... 155.7 looks awfully like a product with DCF39 (138.83). Could the 137.44 be a product with DCF42 (I think that is the call) which is somewhere around 127.5 I think. It may not be but the numbers look very suspicious. I do not hear anything here. Cheers de Alan G3NYK JO02PB Alan.melia@btinternet.com From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16465 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 20:30:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 3 May 2001 20:30:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 25689 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 20:30:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 3 May 2001 20:30:16 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vPeG-00074R-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 21:24:28 +0100 Received: from fep02.swip.net ([130.244.199.130] helo=fep02-svc.swip.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vPeF-00074M-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 21:24:27 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([212.151.22.220]) by fep02-svc.swip.net (InterMail vM.5.01.02.00 201-253-122-103-101-20001108) with SMTP id <20010503202352.PBNK2640.fep02-svc.swip.net@oemcomputer> for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 22:23:52 +0200 Message-ID: <004401c0d40f$2707e280$dc1697d4@oemcomputer> From: "Johan Bodin" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: On-topic Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 22:25:10 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All A long thin wire tied to a cluster of helium filled Durex units will dramatically increase the effective height of the transmitting antenna! 73 Johan, SM6LKM From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 21644 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 20:28:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 3 May 2001 20:28:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 23959 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 20:28:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 3 May 2001 20:28:04 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vPck-00073Z-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 21:22:54 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mailout05.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.82]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vPci-00073U-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 21:22:52 +0100 Received: from fwd00.sul.t-online.com by mailout05.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14vPcE-0006Og-07; Thu, 03 May 2001 22:22:22 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from (0482183881-0001@[62.227.109.142]) by fwd00.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14vPcE-1v6ePIC; Thu, 3 May 2001 22:22:22 +0200 From: "jannsen" <0482183881-0001@t-online.de> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000c01c0d233$a3bfe080$4a77883e@g3aqc> Subject: LF: LF DDH48 X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------000406060501010105010104" Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 22:22:22 +0200 Message-ID: <14vPcE-1v6ePIC@fwd00.sul.t-online.com> X-Sender: 0482183881-0001@t-dialin.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000406060501010105010104 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, since one week I do receive strong spurious from 147,3 kHz DDH48 RTTY/50 Baud on 137,44 kHz/marc and 137,36kHz/space (pic detached). Spurious also on 155,68 and 155,85kHz. Received with different RXs (FT767GX, FT1000MP es RYCOM R1307) and different antennas (longwire inverted Vee and copper-tube-loop), so they are real on air. Any OM/YL who can cnfm it by monitoring it him/herself ? regards Uwe/dj8wx --------------000406060501010105010104 Content-Type: image/gif; name="137_44~1.GIF" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="137_44~1.GIF" R0lGODdhbwHEAPcAAAAAAAAAQAAAgAAA/wAgAAAgQAAggAAg/wBAAABAQABAgABA/wBgAABg QABggABg/wCAAACAQACAgACA/wCgAACgQACggACg/wDAAADAQADAgADA/wD/AAD/QAD/gAD/ /yAAACAAQCAAgCAA/yAgACAgQCAggCAg/yBAACBAQCBAgCBA/yBgACBgQCBggCBg/yCAACCA QCCAgCCA/yCgACCgQCCggCCg/yDAACDAQCDAgCDA/yD/ACD/QCD/gCD//0AAAEAAQEAAgEAA /0AgAEAgQEAggEAg/0BAAEBAQEBAgEBA/0BgAEBgQEBggEBg/0CAAECAQECAgECA/0CgAECg QECggECg/0DAAEDAQEDAgEDA/0D/AED/QED/gED//2AAAGAAQGAAgGAA/2AgAGAgQGAggGAg /2BAAGBAQGBAgGBA/2BgAGBgQGBggGBg/2CAAGCAQGCAgGCA/2CgAGCgQGCggGCg/2DAAGDA QGDAgGDA/2D/AGD/QGD/gGD//4AAAIAAQIAAgIAA/4AgAIAgQIAggIAg/4BAAIBAQIBAgIBA /4BgAIBgQIBggIBg/4CAAICAQICAgICA/4CgAICgQICggICg/4DAAIDAQIDAgIDA/4D/AID/ QID/gID//6AAAKAAQKAAgKAA/6AgAKAgQKAggKAg/6BAAKBAQKBAgKBA/6BgAKBgQKBggKBg 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rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 12746 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 20:01:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 3 May 2001 20:01:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 29926 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 20:01:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 3 May 2001 20:01:34 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vPDF-0006pp-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 20:56:33 +0100 Received: from cobalt5-he.global.net.uk ([195.147.246.165]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vPDE-0006pk-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 20:56:32 +0100 Received: from p8ds05a02.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.149.142] helo=oemcomputer) by cobalt5-he.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14v1K2-0008If-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 2 May 2001 19:25:58 +0100 Message-ID: <000901c0d40a$f29cd5e0$8e9593c3@oemcomputer> From: "Paul" To: "LF - GROUP" References: <3AF17CB8.29078.15F1913@localhost> <3AF1AE34.BF6C80E7@usa.net> Subject: Re: LF: Off-topic: For non-UK readers Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 20:54:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All, I believe our American correspondents may refer to Durex as what we would call "erasers"..... 73 de Paul G4MD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1040 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 19:26:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 3 May 2001 19:26:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 28510 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 19:26:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 3 May 2001 19:26:26 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vOcG-0006c8-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 20:18:20 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from d06lmsgate-2.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.2]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vOcF-0006c0-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 20:18:19 +0100 Received: from d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.166.84.148]) by d06lmsgate-2.uk.ibm.com (1.0.0) with ESMTP id UAA182396 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 20:01:44 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from usa.net (ss1.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.66]) by d06relay02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.8.8m3/NCO v4.96) with ESMTP id UAA239866 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 20:17:16 +0100 Message-ID: <3AF1AE34.BF6C80E7@usa.net> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 21:15:00 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Off-topic: For non-UK readers References: <3AF17CB8.29078.15F1913@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Mike Dennison wrote: > and an Australian would use Durex to make sure > nothing leaked out of a parcel whilst a Brit would use it for a quite different > purpose. > I have the suspect that in Italy and UK we have the same kind of application for a Durex thing...:-) 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7096 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 18:13:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 3 May 2001 18:13:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 26496 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 18:12:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 3 May 2001 18:12:50 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vNW8-0005xi-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 19:07:56 +0100 Received: from irwell.zetnet.co.uk ([194.247.47.48] helo=zetnet.co.uk ident=root) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vNW7-0005xd-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 19:07:56 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer (man-128.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.40.163]) by zetnet.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3/Debian 8.11.2-1) with SMTP id f43I7Oj15646 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 19:07:24 +0100 Message-ID: <004801c0d3fb$e4950f80$a328f7c2@oemcomputer> From: "John Rabson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <20010503.125320.-498345.1.riese-k3djc@juno.com> Subject: Re: LF: Off-topic: For non-UK readers Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:07:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ----- Original Message ----- From: "BOB RIESE" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 5:52 PM Subject: Re: LF: Off-topic: For non-UK readers > Durex ? ? ? ? > > for a quite different > purpose. > > > but what is the intended one > To avoid knocking a YL up [US idiom]. 73 de John Rabson G3PAI From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22582 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 17:12:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 3 May 2001 17:12:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 397 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 17:12:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 3 May 2001 17:12:22 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vMYg-0005XQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 18:06:30 +0100 Received: from cobalt4.source.net ([206.100.10.38]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vMYe-0005XL-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 18:06:29 +0100 Received: from parissn2 (AMontsouris-101-1-2-155.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.39.155]) by cobalt4.source.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA18332 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 10:05:50 -0700 Message-ID: <002501c0d3f3$59320d60$0700000a@parissn2> From: "Stewart Nelson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3AF17CB8.29078.15F1913@localhost> Subject: LF: Re: Off-topic: For non-UK readers Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:06:06 +0200 Organization: SC Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Mike, The phrase is very common in the U.S. Just for laughs, I did an altavista search and 30778 pages were found. With "+host:uk" added, the hit count went down to 1328. Results in the top 20 from the first search included the titles: Changing the World on a Shoestring , Parties on a Shoestring, Homeschooling On a Shoestring, and Starting an E-Business on a Shoestring 73, Stewart ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Dennison" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 4:43 PM Subject: LF: Off-topic: For non-UK readers > With apologies to UK readers, I am using this forum to survey non-UK > amateurs about the term "on a shoestring" which the RSGB may be using in > the title of a future project. I would like to know whether its UK meaning "for > very little money" is widely understood around the world, especially in the US > and Australia. > > This may sound an obvious question but I am well aware that an American > puts his pants on over his shorts, but a Brit does the opposite (was this > Superman's problem?) and an Australian would use Durex to make sure > nothing leaked out of a parcel whilst a Brit would use it for a quite different > purpose. > > Thanks in advance for any help on this one. > > [official signature for a change] > > > Mike Dennison, G3XDV > Publications Manager > > * RadCom * GB2RS News * > * RSGB Books and CDs * > * RSGB Online Web Site * > > Radio Society of Great Britain > Lambda House, Cranborne Road > Potters Bar, Herts UK, EN6 3JE > Tel: +44 (0) 1707 659015; Fax: +44 (0) 1707 645105 > www.rsgb.org > RSGB - UK AMATEUR RADIO > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3353 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 17:03:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 3 May 2001 17:03:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 22368 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 17:03:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 3 May 2001 17:03:04 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vMOb-0005Ps-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 17:56:05 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from m11.boston.juno.com ([64.136.24.74]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vMOa-0005Pn-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 17:56:04 +0100 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"yokUgcxCbtTP7XLrpefewHdXox9FTXWzzAFLbhJCNDFBq9k7Uu4JnQ=="> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: (from riese-k3djc@juno.com) by m11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id F4JF4AM9; Thu, 03 May 2001 12:55:09 EDT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:52:37 -0400 Subject: Re: LF: Off-topic: For non-UK readers Message-ID: <20010503.125320.-498345.1.riese-k3djc@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "BOB RIESE" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Durex ? ? ? ? for a quite different purpose. but what is the intended one Bob K3DJC From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 25264 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 16:28:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 3 May 2001 16:28:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 19494 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 16:27:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 3 May 2001 16:27:53 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vLrk-0005BS-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 17:22:08 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vLrj-0005BN-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 17:22:07 +0100 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.89.142]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 13:20:36 -0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3AF13F54.9645702D@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 04:21:58 -0700 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Off-topic: For non-UK readers References: <3AF17CB8.29078.15F1913@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Mike, I guess Churchill was right we really are separated by a common language. But in this case all is well . On this side of Atlantic " on a shoestring " also means without enough money. 73 de John VE1ZJ Mike Dennison wrote: > With apologies to UK readers, I am using this forum to survey non-UK > amateurs about the term "on a shoestring" which the RSGB may be using in > the title of a future project. I would like to know whether its UK meaning "for > very little money" is widely understood around the world, especially in the US > and Australia. > > This may sound an obvious question but I am well aware that an American > puts his pants on over his shorts, but a Brit does the opposite (was this > Superman's problem?) and an Australian would use Durex to make sure > nothing leaked out of a parcel whilst a Brit would use it for a quite different > purpose. > > Thanks in advance for any help on this one. > > [official signature for a change] > > Mike Dennison, G3XDV > Publications Manager > > * RadCom * GB2RS News * > * RSGB Books and CDs * > * RSGB Online Web Site * > > Radio Society of Great Britain > Lambda House, Cranborne Road > Potters Bar, Herts UK, EN6 3JE > Tel: +44 (0) 1707 659015; Fax: +44 (0) 1707 645105 > www.rsgb.org > RSGB - UK AMATEUR RADIO From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 1648 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 16:19:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 3 May 2001 16:19:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 10809 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 16:19:24 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 3 May 2001 16:19:24 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vLgY-00054e-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 17:10:34 +0100 Received: from mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vLgU-00054Z-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 17:10:30 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id SAA917844 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 18:10:00 +0200 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20010503171109.3f3f6ae4@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> X-Sender: pb623250@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 17:11:09 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: Re: LF: Off-topic: For non-UK readers In-reply-to: <3AF17CB8.29078.15F1913@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: At 15:43 3/05/01 +0100, you wrote: >With apologies to UK readers, I am using this forum to survey non-UK >amateurs about the term "on a shoestring" which the RSGB may be using in >the title of a future project. Hi Mike, I do understand the term, but at the time I was in highschool we still learned 'old fashioned' British English. We even got a 'black list' of wrong spelled words (such as 'color' and 'favorite', had to be 'colour' and 'favourite'). Sometimes we had to use a complete different word (eg. 'apartment' was wrong, it had to be 'flat'). One thing I remind is that, a few weeks after I got my ham licence, I was told that even 'antenna' was not correct, it had to be 'aerial' ... 73, Rik ON7YD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23701 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 15:54:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 3 May 2001 15:54:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 14152 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 15:54:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 3 May 2001 15:54:10 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vLJu-0004ps-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 16:47:10 +0100 Received: from ligarius-fe0.ultra.net ([146.115.8.189]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vLJq-0004pn-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 16:47:06 +0100 Received: from comrex (216-164-248-138.s2614.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com [216.164.248.138]) by ligarius-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n26500/mtc.v2) with SMTP id LAA22878 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:46:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001801c0d3e8$945bee20$09dc9384@ma.ultranet.com> From: "John Andrews" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3AF17CB8.29078.15F1913@localhost> Subject: LF: Re: Off-topic: For non-UK readers Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:48:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Mike, > With apologies to UK readers, I am using this forum to survey non-UK > amateurs about the term "on a shoestring" which the RSGB may be using in > the title of a future project. I would like to know whether its UK meaning "for > very little money" is widely understood around the world, especially in the US > and Australia. It's certainly a valid term in the northeast U.S., Mike. I suspect that it would be OK for North America. John Andrews, W1TAG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27714 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 14:56:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 3 May 2001 14:56:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 14710 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 14:55:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 3 May 2001 14:55:51 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vKOI-0004Re-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 15:47:38 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from [213.2.16.106] (helo=rsgb.org.uk) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14vKOE-0004RZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 15:47:34 +0100 Received: from miked by rsgb.org.uk with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.8.7.5.R) for ; Thu, 03 May 2001 15:43:55 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Mike Dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 15:43:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: LF: Off-topic: For non-UK readers Message-ID: <3AF17CB8.29078.15F1913@localhost> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Return-Path: miked@mail Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: With apologies to UK readers, I am using this forum to survey non-UK amateurs about the term "on a shoestring" which the RSGB may be using in the title of a future project. I would like to know whether its UK meaning "for very little money" is widely understood around the world, especially in the US and Australia. This may sound an obvious question but I am well aware that an American puts his pants on over his shorts, but a Brit does the opposite (was this Superman's problem?) and an Australian would use Durex to make sure nothing leaked out of a parcel whilst a Brit would use it for a quite different purpose. Thanks in advance for any help on this one. [official signature for a change] Mike Dennison, G3XDV Publications Manager * RadCom * GB2RS News * * RSGB Books and CDs * * RSGB Online Web Site * Radio Society of Great Britain Lambda House, Cranborne Road Potters Bar, Herts UK, EN6 3JE Tel: +44 (0) 1707 659015; Fax: +44 (0) 1707 645105 www.rsgb.org RSGB - UK AMATEUR RADIO From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 23025 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 00:44:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 3 May 2001 00:44:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 7972 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 00:44:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 3 May 2001 00:44:20 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14v78C-0006PY-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 01:38:08 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14v78A-0006PT-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 May 2001 01:38:06 +0100 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.88.54]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 21:36:54 -0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3AF0E14F.F98BD29@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 00:40:47 -0400 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re: more Wolf tests References: <3AEFD6C6.26493.1590F2@localhost> <3AEFEEDB.6845.73A06A@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Mike I inadvertantly deleted your last comments on WOLF could you please resend 73 de John VE1ZJ Mike Dennison wrote: > ON7YD wrote: > > While WOLF is in an 'experimental stage' the carrier can be usefull for > > tuning purposes. But if you can detect a 2 or 3 second carrier, a DFCW QSO > > won't take more time than a WOLF QSO. So why make a simple thing difficult ? > > But wasn't it the (cl)aim that WOLF would be superior to primitive modes > > such as QRSS and DFCW ? If I remember well WOLF was given a 10dB credit > > over QRSS at 10 sec./dot, so assuming you want to copy a WOLF signal that > > is just 'at the edge' a 100 sec. carrier would be needed to make it visible with > > spectrogram-like software. > > Hmmm. I was originally suspicious of that figure, and have seen nothing yet > that supports it. I am not aware of any amateur radio WOLF reception so far > that would not have been viable using QRSS, but the technique is at an early > stage. > > I am still keen on WOLF on the promise that it can produce results from a > relatively short peak in conditions, whilst QRSS/DFCW needs a longer period > of enhancement. The really big peaks - the ones that would allow you, for > instance, to get through - last only a few minutes. Even if it is no better than 3s > dot DFCW, it may be an improvement in terms of time. This time factor was > identified this winter as the greatest barrier to regular two-way transcontinental > QSOs. > > Also, I am not suggesting that the carrier should provide anything readable, > merely showing that a signal is there. This could be well down on an 'M' > QRS/DFCW transmission. > > I remain skeptical but fascinated. > > Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) > http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 26135 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 16:55:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 2 May 2001 16:55:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 24509 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 16:55:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 2 May 2001 16:55:19 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uzlV-0002oV-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 02 May 2001 17:46:13 +0100 Received: from mta07-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.47]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uzlR-0002oQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 02 May 2001 17:46:10 +0100 Received: from oemcomputer ([213.104.100.42]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with SMTP id <20010502164539.MPGV285.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@oemcomputer> for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 17:45:39 +0100 Message-ID: <000801c0d327$549c7960$2a6468d5@oemcomputer> From: "mike.dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3AEFD6C6.26493.1590F2@localhost> <3AEFEEDB.6845.73A06A@localhost> <3AF02FEA.F88C3A0@att.net> Subject: Re: LF: Re: more Wolf tests Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 17:45:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: G4DEX wrote: > I will share one experience I have had with WOLF. For several years I > tried to copy the 1 watt 180 KHz Lowfer beacon TEXAS which is over 1000 > miles from my QTH. I was finally able to copy this beacon in QRSS mode > with Argo as long as the QRN level was low. When the thunderstorms > season started I could no longer copy TEXAS. Then Bill started > transmitting WOLF. The first night I tried I got excellent copy but the > QRN was low so I wasn't surprised. Each night for a week I made a > recording. As thunderstorms built up during the week the QRN really got > bad. On about the third night the Argo screen was wiped out with noise > as I could not even see strong loran lines. WOLF still came through > with good copy. On the last evening I recorded TEXAS the thunderstorms > were so close I should have shut down the station. Even then I was able > to get a few lines of copy with WOLF. Under these conditions is where I > have found WOLF to copy where QRSS could not. That's very interesting, and points to a way to extend the DX season, especially in more equatorial regions. Mike, G3XDV From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14009 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 16:46:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 2 May 2001 16:46:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 16455 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 16:45:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 2 May 2001 16:45:54 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uzfC-0002nV-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 02 May 2001 17:39:42 +0100 Received: from scutter.tele2.net.uk ([212.19.64.5] helo=scutter.tele2.co.uk) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uzfB-0002nQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 02 May 2001 17:39:41 +0100 Received: from master (wireless-066-114.tele2.co.uk [212.19.66.114]) by scutter.tele2.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id 080A413C4E for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 17:45:21 +0100 (BST) From: "Martin" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: 9 - 520 kHz Active Antenna Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 17:41:20 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-reply-to: <004001c0c505$b441e6a0$712cfd3e@compaq> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Although it looks very pretty I doubt it is any better than any short whip with a preamplifier such as the DATONG of which I still have 4 units for disposal. Anyone interested should have a look at http://www.sounds-good.co.uk/datong/ Regards Martin Sounds Good Ltd Direct Line 0118 930 1701 Fax +44 (0) 118 930 1709 12 Chiltern Enterprise Centre, Station Road Theale, Berkshire RG7 4AA -----Original Message----- From: majordom@post.thorcom.com [mailto:majordom@post.thorcom.com]On Behalf Of Tracey Gardner Sent: 14 April 2001 18:10 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: 9 - 520 kHz Active Antenna RF Systems have just introduced a new high performance active antenna covering 9 - 520 kHz the LFA520 Longwave Active Antenna http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/lwant/3060.html Universal Radio in the States don't quote a price for this yet but the Swiss company Shoc shows the price as: CHF 404, (EURO 264 or US$ 248) Regards Tracey From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8043 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 16:20:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 2 May 2001 16:20:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 21003 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 16:20:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 2 May 2001 16:20:27 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uzDN-0002YZ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 02 May 2001 17:10:57 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from jubilee.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.6] helo=mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uzDJ-0002YU-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 02 May 2001 17:10:53 +0100 Received: from ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.83.82]) by mail-ns00s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 13:09:42 -0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3AEFEB40.B0129452@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 04:11:00 -0700 From: "John Currie" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re: more Wolf tests References: <3AEFD6C6.26493.1590F2@localhost> <3AEFEEDB.6845.73A06A@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi all, As you can probably tell from previous emails, I am not a fan of WOLF. Basically I feel it simply takes a lot more spectrum space than it is worth. As I stated earlier 60 to 80 QRSS stations can be received in the space taken up by one WOLF transmitter. Now, even if WOLF signals can be decoded at SNR 10 db worse than QRSS, (which I dont believe has been demonstrated yet), that only means there could be 10 WOLF QSOs for each QRSS QSO. With , However, 50 stations using using QRSS that means there could be 5 times as many QRSS QSOs than WOLF QSOs for the same spectrum occupied. It also means 5 times as many people can be enjoying their hobby. I wanted to add that I dont believe that really big openings last only a few minutes. The biggest impediment to transatlantic QSOs is, in my opinion, CMEs and the week after it takes the iononphere to go back to normal. During times when condx were not disturbed the signals from 300 mw stations were "O" copy for hours at a time. Sometimes from 1/2 hour before my sunset to 0400 Z when I went to bed, the sigs were in continuously. Rapid QSB is evident during auroral activity and just after. For what its worth, I feel it is easier for me to copy CT1DRP than G stations. Perhaps because there is less contact with the auroral zone on the VE1 to CT1 path By all means I support the continuing testing of WOLF . I am trying to visualise a future when 136 kHz is available on both sides of the Atlantic, when there could be hundreds of stations trying to get across. Two kHz aint much space 73 de John VE1ZJ Mike Dennison wrote: > ON7YD wrote: > > While WOLF is in an 'experimental stage' the carrier can be usefull for > > tuning purposes. But if you can detect a 2 or 3 second carrier, a DFCW QSO > > won't take more time than a WOLF QSO. So why make a simple thing difficult ? > > But wasn't it the (cl)aim that WOLF would be superior to primitive modes > > such as QRSS and DFCW ? If I remember well WOLF was given a 10dB credit > > over QRSS at 10 sec./dot, so assuming you want to copy a WOLF signal that > > is just 'at the edge' a 100 sec. carrier would be needed to make it visible with > > spectrogram-like software. > > Hmmm. I was originally suspicious of that figure, and have seen nothing yet > that supports it. I am not aware of any amateur radio WOLF reception so far > that would not have been viable using QRSS, but the technique is at an early > stage. > > I am still keen on WOLF on the promise that it can produce results from a > relatively short peak in conditions, whilst QRSS/DFCW needs a longer period > of enhancement. The really big peaks - the ones that would allow you, for > instance, to get through - last only a few minutes. Even if it is no better than 3s > dot DFCW, it may be an improvement in terms of time. This time factor was > identified this winter as the greatest barrier to regular two-way transcontinental > QSOs. > > Also, I am not suggesting that the carrier should provide anything readable, > merely showing that a signal is there. This could be well down on an 'M' > QRS/DFCW transmission. > > I remain skeptical but fascinated. > > Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) > http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 119 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 16:15:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 2 May 2001 16:15:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 15679 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 16:14:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 2 May 2001 16:14:57 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uz7P-0002SE-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 02 May 2001 17:04:47 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net ([204.127.131.48]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uz7K-0002S7-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 02 May 2001 17:04:43 +0100 Received: from att.net ([12.77.60.136]) by mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20010502160354.MEO1837.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@att.net> for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 16:03:54 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3AF02FEA.F88C3A0@att.net> Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 12:03:54 -0400 From: "Dexter McIntyre W4DEX" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re: more Wolf tests References: <3AEFD6C6.26493.1590F2@localhost> <3AEFEEDB.6845.73A06A@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Mike Dennison wrote: I am not aware of any amateur radio WOLF reception so far > that would not have been viable using QRSS, but the technique is at an early > stage. Mike, I will share one experience I have had with WOLF. For several years I tried to copy the 1 watt 180 KHz Lowfer beacon TEXAS which is over 1000 miles from my QTH. I was finally able to copy this beacon in QRSS mode with Argo as long as the QRN level was low. When the thunderstorms season started I could no longer copy TEXAS. Then Bill started transmitting WOLF. The first night I tried I got excellent copy but the QRN was low so I wasn't surprised. Each night for a week I made a recording. As thunderstorms built up during the week the QRN really got bad. On about the third night the Argo screen was wiped out with noise as I could not even see strong loran lines. WOLF still came through with good copy. On the last evening I recorded TEXAS the thunderstorms were so close I should have shut down the station. Even then I was able to get a few lines of copy with WOLF. Under these conditions is where I have found WOLF to copy where QRSS could not. Dex From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10635 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 12:12:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 2 May 2001 12:12:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 21496 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 12:11:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 2 May 2001 12:11:39 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uvM3-0000fO-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 02 May 2001 13:03:39 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uvM0-0000fH-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 02 May 2001 13:03:36 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from [147.197.200.44] (helo=gemini) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #4) id 14uvLU-00064M-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 02 May 2001 13:03:04 +0100 Message-ID: <2264.200105021203@gemini> From: "James Moritz" Organization: University of Hertfordshire To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:03:28 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: LF: Re: Wolf tests X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear LF Group, Thanks for the reports on the Wolf-mode signals - I hope this was useful. I put in the 3 minute bursts of carrier partly so that people who can receive the signal at relatively good strength could use the Wolf -m option to calibrate the frequency offset in their receivers. The frequency should have been correct within 0.01Hz. Also, it enables the more DX stations to check the signal is present using a spectrogram type program as I2PHD has done. As Mike says, it is useful to have a spectrogram of the signal available when recording the .wav files, which is one reason why I use Spectrum Lab to make the recordings. I find that if the BPSK signal is visible on the spectrogram at all, it will usually decode within the first 1 or 2 frames. I have done some rough comparative tests of the relative sensitivity of Wolf and QRSS - A signal level that Wolf reliably decodes in 15 - 20 minutes requires about 60 second dots to be readable in QRSS mode. Obviously, a stronger signal can use shorter dots, and Wolf will decode it more quickly. It should be pointed out that the nature of the noise may make a significant difference to the relative performance of the two modes. However, it looks like Wolf offers a significant saving in time, which is why I am interested in it. A QRSS signal gives a visible trace when it is several dB too weak to be actually copied, while with Wolf, you can only sure a signal is being received by being able to copy it correctly. In my opinion, this makes the QRSS modes better for beacon operation, where it is only neccessary to identify and assess the strength of the signal, and very little actual information has to be transmitted. This means there is no great disadvantage in the slow speed of QRSS, and it has the advantages of flexibility and simpler equipment. However, for 2 way communications, the slow speed of QRSS is an extreme limitation, and a development of Wolf might be a solution. I also tried to copy VA3LK's beacon signals last night, but no results - the QRN level was very high, so not suprising. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 20750 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 10:50:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 2 May 2001 10:50:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 5736 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 10:49:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 2 May 2001 10:49:55 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14utw0-0008SW-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 02 May 2001 11:32:40 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from [213.2.16.106] (helo=rsgb.org.uk) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14utvy-0008SR-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 02 May 2001 11:32:38 +0100 Received: from miked by rsgb.org.uk with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.8.7.5.R) for ; Wed, 02 May 2001 11:26:22 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Mike Dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 11:26:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: LF: Re: more Wolf tests Message-ID: <3AEFEEDB.6845.73A06A@localhost> In-reply-to: <3.0.1.16.20010502104150.2dc7f9ec@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> References: <3AEFD6C6.26493.1590F2@localhost> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Return-Path: miked@mail Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: ON7YD wrote: > While WOLF is in an 'experimental stage' the carrier can be usefull for > tuning purposes. But if you can detect a 2 or 3 second carrier, a DFCW QSO > won't take more time than a WOLF QSO. So why make a simple thing difficult ? > But wasn't it the (cl)aim that WOLF would be superior to primitive modes > such as QRSS and DFCW ? If I remember well WOLF was given a 10dB credit > over QRSS at 10 sec./dot, so assuming you want to copy a WOLF signal that > is just 'at the edge' a 100 sec. carrier would be needed to make it visible with > spectrogram-like software. Hmmm. I was originally suspicious of that figure, and have seen nothing yet that supports it. I am not aware of any amateur radio WOLF reception so far that would not have been viable using QRSS, but the technique is at an early stage. I am still keen on WOLF on the promise that it can produce results from a relatively short peak in conditions, whilst QRSS/DFCW needs a longer period of enhancement. The really big peaks - the ones that would allow you, for instance, to get through - last only a few minutes. Even if it is no better than 3s dot DFCW, it may be an improvement in terms of time. This time factor was identified this winter as the greatest barrier to regular two-way transcontinental QSOs. Also, I am not suggesting that the carrier should provide anything readable, merely showing that a signal is there. This could be well down on an 'M' QRS/DFCW transmission. I remain skeptical but fascinated. Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28529 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 10:06:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 2 May 2001 10:06:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 11418 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 10:06:19 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 2 May 2001 10:06:19 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ut8F-0007uE-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 02 May 2001 10:41:15 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be ([134.58.10.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ut8C-0007u9-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 02 May 2001 10:41:12 +0100 Received: from LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be (LCBD15.fys.kuleuven.ac.be [134.58.80.15]) by mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA11432 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 11:40:39 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20010502104150.2dc7f9ec@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> X-Sender: pb623250@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 10:41:50 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "Rik Strobbe" Subject: Re: LF: Re: more Wolf tests In-reply-to: <3AEFD6C6.26493.1590F2@localhost> References: <3AEF2391.4DCDA493@usa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hello Mike & group, While WOLF is in an 'experimental stage' the carrier can be usefull for tuning purposes. But if you can detect a 2 or 3 second carrier, a DFCW QSO won't take more time than a WOLF QSO. So why make a simple thing difficult ? But wasn't it the (cl)aim that WOLF would be superior to primitive modes such as QRSS and DFCW ? If I remember well WOLF was given a 10dB credit over QRSS at 10 sec./dot, so assuming you want to copy a WOLF signal that is just 'at the edge' a 100 sec. carrier would be needed to make it visible with spectrogram-like software. 73, Rik ON7YD >Yes. That is exactly why I have suggested that a WOLF transmission should >have a few seconds of unmodulated carrier (or perhaps identifiably modulated >- wobble) every few minutes. Also that any GUI-based WOLF front end should >include a spectrogram-type window. This would allow WOLF transmissions to >be seen without knowing in advance that they were there, and would also help >frequency alignment. This would overcome one of the real difficulties in using >the mode for random QSOs. > >Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) >http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 4404 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 09:06:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 2 May 2001 09:06:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 15621 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 09:06:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 2 May 2001 09:06:02 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14usIi-0007c8-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 02 May 2001 09:48:00 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from [213.2.16.106] (helo=rsgb.org.uk) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14usIf-0007c3-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 02 May 2001 09:47:57 +0100 Received: from miked by rsgb.org.uk with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.8.7.5.R) for ; Wed, 02 May 2001 09:43:36 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Mike Dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 09:43:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: LF: Re: more Wolf tests Message-ID: <3AEFD6C6.26493.1590F2@localhost> In-reply-to: <3AEF2391.4DCDA493@usa.net> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Return-Path: miked@mail Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: > Decidedly the spectrogram-like programs are less than ideal for > detecting the presence of a Wolf signal. > Look at this picture : http://www.qsl.net/i2phd/argo/jimwolf.html > It has been taken just a few minutes ago, receiving the test transmission > of Jim M0BMU, who at the half-hour period has sent the CW ID and > a steady carrier for a few minutes. Yes. That is exactly why I have suggested that a WOLF transmission should have a few seconds of unmodulated carrier (or perhaps identifiably modulated - wobble) every few minutes. Also that any GUI-based WOLF front end should include a spectrogram-type window. This would allow WOLF transmissions to be seen without knowing in advance that they were there, and would also help frequency alignment. This would overcome one of the real difficulties in using the mode for random QSOs. Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17484 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 21:42:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2001 21:42:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 29718 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 21:41:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 1 May 2001 21:41:34 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uhpL-0002Ti-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 22:36:59 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from imo-m03.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uhpK-0002TX-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 22:36:58 +0100 Received: from DL4YHF@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.10.) id l.64.d9c7bd8 (3924) for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 17:35:53 -0400 (EDT) From: DL4YHF@aol.com Message-ID: <64.d9c7bd8.28208638@aol.com> Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 17:35:52 EDT Subject: LF: TECH: New beta release of Spectrum Lab (V1.65) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows DE sub 217 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Hello Brian, Markus, and the group,

I have just uploaded the first beta release of Spectrum Lab V1.65 .

There are some new functions in it, most interesting may be:
- dynamic range up to 150dB (with FFT and decimation gain)
- adjustable range for the display (no longer fixed to 0...+90dB)
- improved averaging for the waterfall if used for long-term observation
 (with very slow scrolling waterfall)
- very flexible export function (noise, average, peaks in frequency 'ranges',
 text files can be read with Excel etc for post processing, plots etc)
- Sample Rate 5512 Hz now supported, saves a lot of disk space
  when recording into a wave file without decimation.

The new BETA can be downloaded directly from:
            http://members.aol.com/dl4yhf001/spectr_i.zip
or from   www.qsl.net/dl4yhf

Hope this is useful for some of you.

Thanks to CT1DRP and DF6NM for their suggestions.
Not all discussed functions are implemented yet, but the QRN on LF seems to
give me more time now to push the program forward ...

 Bug reports and constructive criticism very welcome.

73's from Wolf, DL4YHF.


From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 2800 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 21:30:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2001 21:30:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 4820 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 21:29:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 1 May 2001 21:29:34 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uhdC-0002Ry-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 22:24:26 +0100 Received: from smtp.wanadoo.nl ([194.134.193.6]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uhdB-0002Rt-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 22:24:25 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from default (p1034.vcu.wanadoo.nl [194.134.203.15]) by smtp.wanadoo.nl (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id f41LNmq04011 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 23:23:49 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <200105012123.f41LNmq04011@smtp.wanadoo.nl> Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:23:44 +0100 From: "Ko Versteeg" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Wolf 137440 X-Mailer: FoxMail 2.1 [en] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Jim.. and Group Noticed your hints from yesterday and tried 137440 this evening. The first field of text was done with a 75Hz filter on. The second without filter Guess i did it the easy way but it works. 20:00 - 20:25z very 1st attempt. WOLF version 0.53 File recorded at nominal sample rate of 11025. t: 24 f:-0.681 a: 0.8 dp: 88.6 ci: 3 cj: 97 F6TE.TY1GHSXTVV ? t: 48 f: 0.656 a: 0.5 dp: 84.4 ci: 0 cj:428 6XGJKB93LCMA10X ? t: 96 f:-0.063 a:-0.9 dp: 81.6 ci: 2 cj: 95 BV0X1QSG8B80U5* ? t: 192 f: 0.996 pm: 456 jm:879 Y0J61VOFBBO EM2 ? t: 288 f:-0.332 pm:1479 jm:880 WL132NCT1V3U*4Q - t: 384 f: 0.654 pm:4773 jm:736 EU. 2D/Z9OZNENM ? t: 480 f: 0.654 pm:5046 jm:736 9QVX87CET1OYLCZ ? t: 576 f: 0.391 pm:7429 jm:131 N*BMMKEAHHVJ*EI ? t: 672 f: 0.391 pm:11524 jm:131 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t: 768 f: 0.391 pm:15619 jm:131 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t: 864 f: 0.391 pm:19714 jm:131 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t: 960 f: 0.391 pm:23809 jm:131 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t:1056 f: 0.391 pm:27904 jm:131 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t:1152 f: 0.391 pm:31999 jm:131 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t:1248 f: 0.391 pm:36094 jm:131 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t:1344 f: 0.391 pm:40189 jm:131 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t:1440 f: 0.391 pm:44284 jm:131 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t:1536 f: 0.391 pm:48379 jm:131 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - 20:30 - 20:55z WOLF version 0.53 File recorded at nominal sample rate of 11025. t: 24 f:-0.865 a:-1.5 dp: 87.0 ci: 7 cj:220 JPK5HAWV.4RG5D ? t: 48 f: 0.385 a:-1.1 dp:104.8 ci: 7 cj:145 - t: 96 f: 0.386 a: 1.6 dp:110.5 ci: 6 cj:353 - t: 192 f: 0.117 pm: 376 jm:248 B4O8KD WCE6J1T8 ? t: 288 f: 0.391 pm:4132 jm:336 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t: 384 f: 0.391 pm:8227 jm:336 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t: 480 f: 0.391 pm:12322 jm:336 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t: 576 f: 0.391 pm:16417 jm:336 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t: 672 f: 0.391 pm:19499 jm:336 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t: 768 f: 0.381 pm:23051 jm:336 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t: 864 f: 0.381 pm:27146 jm:336 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t: 960 f: 0.381 pm:31241 jm:336 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t:1056 f: 0.381 pm:35336 jm:336 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t:1152 f: 0.381 pm:39431 jm:336 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t:1248 f: 0.381 pm:43526 jm:336 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t:1344 f: 0.381 pm:47621 jm:336 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t:1440 f: 0.381 pm:51716 jm:336 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - t:1536 f: 0.381 pm:55811 jm:336 CQ M0BMU M0BMU - 73 de Ko Versteeg, NL9222 From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22649 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 21:06:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 1 May 2001 21:06:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 17752 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 21:06:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 1 May 2001 21:06:56 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uhHY-0002Ia-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 22:02:04 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from e33.co.us.ibm.com ([32.97.110.131] helo=e33.bld.us.ibm.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uhHU-0002IV-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 22:02:00 +0100 Received: from westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com (westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com [9.99.140.22]) by e33.bld.us.ibm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA35776 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 15:55:46 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from usa.net (ss8.bld.socks.ibm.com [9.14.4.73]) by westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com (8.8.8m3/NCO v4.96.1.0) with ESMTP id PAA81996 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 15:01:06 -0600 Message-ID: <3AEF2391.4DCDA493@usa.net> Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 22:58:57 +0200 From: "Alberto di Bene" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: more Wolf tests References: <9155.200105011433@gemini> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Decidedly the spectrogram-like programs are less than ideal for detecting the presence of a Wolf signal. Look at this picture : http://www.qsl.net/i2phd/argo/jimwolf.html It has been taken just a few minutes ago, receiving the test transmission of Jim M0BMU, who at the half-hour period has sent the CW ID and a steady carrier for a few minutes. 73 Alberto I2PHD From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5386 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 20:43:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2001 20:43:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 21841 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 20:43:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 1 May 2001 20:43:23 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ugt5-00023Z-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 21:36:47 +0100 Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz ([203.96.92.13]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ugt0-00023S-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 21:36:44 +0100 Received: from xtr743187 ([202.27.181.178]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20010501203529.ZHZL1929283.mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz@xtr743187> for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 08:35:29 +1200 Message-ID: <002f01c0d27e$7fc1e660$b2b51bca@xtr743187> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C047B@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> Subject: LF: Re: RE: Wolf coding Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 08:35:45 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Andy and others, > re Jim's comments : > > > > > I have been thinking along similar > > lines for somewhat different reasons. I don't claim to have > > expertise in this field, but suppose the data rate of Wolf was > > reduced by a factor of 10, ie, to 1 bit per second. What would be > > the effects? > > > I was not proposing just slowing Wolf down, I was arguing the merits of > using Uncoded BPSK for the same performance (a-la VE2IQ & Coherent) but > at 1 b/s - this would give a few extra dB capability immediately. With > Wolf coding as well, this could give 10 dB extra but at 16 minutes for a > 15 character message. I suggest that there are also middle options. At LF there are "lightning pops" and some forms of QRM that are that are "bursty", and either could thwart successful decoding of a few parts of a message, but inbetween noise bursts the RF S/N conditions could be satisfactory for reception. So having some redundancy is desirable, especially for a text messaging system. The question is in the selection of the degree of coding overhead. I do not have a suggestion as to where the optimum answer lies. 73, Bob ZL2CA From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10534 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 18:54:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 1 May 2001 18:54:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 29907 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 18:54:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 1 May 2001 18:54:12 -0000 X-Priority: 3 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ufD7-00019o-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 19:49:21 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.38]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ufD5-00019i-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 19:49:19 +0100 Received: from alg.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.80]) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14ufCX-000Dxs-0A for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 1 May 2001 18:48:46 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <3AEF0388.4A2F96EA@alg.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 19:42:16 +0100 From: "Steve Rawlings" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-CCK-MCD NetscapeOnline.co.uk (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "LF Group" Subject: Re: LF: Ground Systems References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Tom KD4WOV wrote: > > I am curious about the grounding systems people are using. > Is anyone using multiple ground rods bonded together? > Is anyone using a well that is drilled into the water table? > > Has anyone used sheets of metal buried vertically in the ground > as a earth ground? > I am curious, because i know on the lower ham bands 160 - 40 meter > a multiple ground rod system or a water well is a must for a good > ground system to be effective. I know that Graham G3XTZ - who has put in an extensive ground system - gets out really well on MF (160 m) and LF (136 kHz). But the lack of a custom ground system at my QTH seems to be less of a disadvantage on 136 kHz when compared to, say, 160 m. My ground on LF is a connection to an outside cold water tap. This in turn connects to all our internal copper plumbing; and to the incoming (metal) water main; and to the mains earth. Both the water main and the mains earth provide additional connections to large numbers of properties throughout the neighbourhood - forming quite an extensive ground system! Good enough at 136 kHz, anyway. I have found that no change in antenna current occurs when connecting additional earth rods located in the corners of our small plot. I am reasonably sure that my effective 'utility' earth is one of the key factors that has enabled me to make so many DX QSOs on 136 kHz using just a basic 12 m vertical. Regards to all, Steve GW4ALG From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3077 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 17:05:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2001 17:05:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 4803 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 17:05:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 1 May 2001 17:05:23 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14udRN-0000RN-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 17:55:57 +0100 Received: from cobalt4.source.net ([206.100.10.38]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14udRJ-0000RI-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 17:55:53 +0100 Received: from parissn2 (AMontsouris-101-1-2-155.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.39.155]) by cobalt4.source.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA24061 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 09:55:20 -0700 Message-ID: <003d01c0d25f$873fb800$0700000a@parissn2> From: "Stewart Nelson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <9155.200105011433@gemini> Subject: LF: Re: Re: more Wolf tests Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 18:55:28 +0200 Organization: SC Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Jim and all, Sorry that I don't have a ZIP drive, but if you can burn a CDROM, that would be a good way to transfer some big .wav files. I'm in Paris now; it won't take long to get here by post. If you want to do this, let me know and I'll send my physical address. 73, Stewart From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8253 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 16:00:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2001 16:00:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 18191 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 16:00:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 1 May 2001 16:00:40 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ucLx-0008OV-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 16:46:17 +0100 X-Priority: 3 Received: from bob.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ucLt-0008OQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 16:46:13 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: by bob.dera.gov.uk; (8.8.8/1.3/10May95) id QAA13160; Tue, 1 May 2001 16:49:29 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 18170 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 16:20:47 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk (172.16.9.10) by baton.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 1 May 2001 16:20:47 -0000 Received: by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk; id QAA11677; Tue, 1 May 2001 16:16:54 GMT Received: from unknown(10.71.64.31) by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk via smap (3.2) id xma011630; Tue, 1 May 01 16:16:36 GMT Received: from FRN-MAIL-3.dera.gov.uk (unverified) by mailguard.dera.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 16:33:40 +0100 Received: by frn-mail-3.dera.gov.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 1 May 2001 16:26:15 +0100 Message-ID: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C047B@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Re: more Wolf tests Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 16:26:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: re Jim's comments : > > I have been thinking along similar > lines for somewhat different reasons. I don't claim to have > expertise in this field, but suppose the data rate of Wolf was > reduced by a factor of 10, ie, to 1 bit per second. What would be > the effects? > I was not proposing just slowing Wolf down, I was arguing the merits of using Uncoded BPSK for the same performance (a-la VE2IQ & Coherent) but at 1 b/s - this would give a few extra dB capability immediately. With Wolf coding as well, this could give 10 dB extra but at 16 minutes for a 15 character message. > -The reduced transmitted data rate should be largely made up for > by the increased SNR possible in the narrower bandwidth, reducing > the number of data frames required to be processed for successful > decoding. So the overall throughput should be little changed. > Although I think you said that here > -The overall amount of data to be processed in a given time would > be reduced by an order of magnitude - this would reduce the time > taken for the PC to process the received data, and so bring > decoding nearer to "real time" without requiring a very fast PC. > -Because each bit period is ten times longer, but the overall > decoding period would be roughly the same, the bit-timing accuracy > required from the soundcard or other interface would be reduced. > The bit timing accuracy needs to be of the order of the bit interval, so at 1b/s 10 times better timing accuracy will be needed, but at this speed it becomes easier to set to UTC ticks - from MSF or GPS etc. > The main drawback would be that increased demands would be > made on TX and RX stability - probably an overall tolerance of > about +/-0.1Hz or 1ppm. While this is easily acheived by equipment > with temperature stabilised or compensated references, it is a bit > much for most amateur HF gear. Perhaps it would be possible to > improve the frequency tracking capabilities of Wolf to cope with > this. > As for frequency stability, 1ppm really ought not to be a problem now - as I've said many times before here. The microwavers have regularly been getting that sort of stability for years when out /P, without even resorting to TCXOs - merely using an overtone crystal in a series resonant Butler oscillator in the region of 100MHz with a clip on crystal heater costing a couple of pounds. (Digital dividers operating at 100MHz to generate LF freqs are straightforward now, 100MHz is no problem for CMOS logic these days). Alternatively small TCXOs are very widely available now, every mobile phone has one, and they are available from all the component suppliers for a few pounds. These lower cost TCXOs are specified at 2ppm, which nearly always means at least 1ppm in practice or else they couldn't guarantee the figure, and many can be trimmed to within 0.2ppm and can stay there for months, even if turned on and off repeatedly. A 5MHz TCXO driving a DDS gives you just about the most versatile LF signal source imaginable 0 to 2 MHz in steps of 0.0012Hz. The clock doesn't even have to be a round value of frequency - anything can be pressed into service for driving a DDS chip. After a concerted effort and much frustration with numbers that turned out to be coded using Octal notation, last weekend finally manage to 'crack' the Wolf coding sufficient to be able to generate code from my own software written in another language which agrees with that from software supplied by Stewart. The next stage is to port to a PIC processor to allow a small beacon generator to be constructed with data that can be changed on the fly. Andy G4JNT -- The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s). For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is prohibited and may be unlawful. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14451 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 15:43:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2001 15:43:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 28925 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 15:43:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 1 May 2001 15:43:03 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uc97-0008HX-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 16:33:01 +0100 Received: from cobalt4.source.net ([206.100.10.38]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uc94-0008HS-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 16:32:59 +0100 Received: from parissn2 (AMontsouris-101-1-2-155.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.39.155]) by cobalt4.source.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA19032 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 08:32:24 -0700 Message-ID: <00b401c0d253$f1255c90$0700000a@parissn2> From: "Stewart Nelson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C047A@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> Subject: LF: Re: RE: Wolf Tests Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 17:32:31 +0200 Organization: SC Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Andy and all, > A recent discussion with G3PLX made something click in my mind about the > widespread adoption of Wolf for LF communications, and is it really the > right way to go ? WOLF is far from an ideal system, and presently performs worse than many simpler systems under some real world conditions. But I believe that its principles are sound, and with a great deal of evolution, it will become more robust. > > A heavily coded relatively wideband data signal such as this exhibits a > pronounced threshold effect, such that copy is either good or fails > completely. Coding can do an excelent job against interference such as > burst errors but is not so effective against a signal that is just too > weak to start with. It is true, and can even be mathematically proven, that all coding systems exhibit an S/N threshold, below which the output BER is worse than an uncoded system would deliver. But, with a decent coding system, the threshold occurs at a point where, say, only 20% of the received characters are correct. It is rarely the case that such copy can be considered useful, and the coded system can deliver nearly perfect copy when the input S/N is only about 1 dB above this threshold. This is why nearly all modern digital RF communication systems use one or more forms of forward error correction. > Consider this situation : > > An uncoded non-differential BPSK waveform at 10 bits/s is used. From > standard graphs of error rate vs. Signal / Noise ratio, in the 10 Hz > bandwidth ideally needed for this signalling waveform, would require > about 7dB S/N for good copy, assuming 1 error per 1000 bits > transmitted If S/N fell to 4dB, raw bit error rate will fall to 1 per > 100 (10^-2) and at 2dB S/N falls to 1/30. At 1db S/N is may be > possible to achieve an error rate in the region of 1/10, but the curves > in text books rarely go back this far because for all practical purposes > the link is unusaeble at this level ! > > A heavily coded scheme such as Wolf can take a moderately poor error > rate and make it better by repeats of the data and error correction. > But this presupposes a certain BER to start with. Bear in mind that > random noise, will give an error rate of 0.5, since there is as likely a > probability of a bit chosen at random of being correct as not. I have > not even tried to work out what raw error rate (at 10b/s) is needed for > Wolf to work "reasonably well", but assume Wolf can cope perfectly with > 1 bit in 6 being in error - just a gut feeling based on it being a rate > 1/6 code, but it does not matter too much what figure is chosen here. > 1/6 error rate comes from a S/N of around 0dB (plus / minus a dB or so). Most modern systems use "soft decisions", which means that the detector output levels are measured, rather than being treated as "0" or "1". A bit corrupted by noise is likely to be near the decision threshold, while one far above or below the threshold is more likely to be correct. The decoder uses this information to determine the most likely transmitted message. This is not new to the amateur world, Both PSK31 and Africa use this technique. Perfect copy is possible, even when 40% or more of the received bits would be "wrong", had hard decisions been used. > Now, each character in Wolf, which corresponds to 5.33 bits of data, > effectively takes 64 bits to send - 960 bits taking 96 seconds for a > full 15 character message. > > Now consider a lower rate signalling waveform - say 1b/s. Now, good > copy at an error rate of 1/1000 again occurs at a S/N of 7dB, but this > time in a bandwidth of 1Hz, a 10dB lower noise level. This level of > signal would correspond to -3dB S/N in the original 10Hz bandwidth. > Even without coding of the 1b/s signal we have gained something like 3dB > signalling performance, and furthermore, keeping with 5.33 bits per > character, we can now send the complete message in 80 seconds. Let's ignore coding for a moment and consider which is better, sending an 80 bit message once at 1 bps, or sending it 10 times at 10 bps. Assume both systems transmit the same power, and of course, they both transmit for 80 seconds. Under textbook conditions of perfect stability and timing, and no QRM (the only impairment is Gaussian noise), the performance of both systems is identical, if soft decision coherent detection is used. This should not be too surprising, because in both systems each bit is being sent for one second. In the real world things are much different. For example, if you can find enough interference-free spectrum for the 1 bps signal, but not for 10 bps, then the 10 bps system might not work at all. To some extent, on 136 kHz, this is the situation with WOLF, because e.g. LORAN QRM will always be present. However, in most cases the QRM is completely predictable, and could be removed with a suitable dynamic filter. I have be working on such a system, but have had difficulty finding sufficient time to devote to it. But there are two major advantages to the faster system. First, if a few seconds of the transmission are unusable, e.g. because of QSB or static crashes, the 10 bps system suffers only a minor reduction in S/N. On the other hand, the slower system will lose a few data bits, and copy will be incorrect. Also, it gives the opportunity to use a low rate code. One way of looking at this is that, instead of just repeating the message, we send it in many different forms, so that messages which are similar in one form are very different in the others, and are unlikely to be mistaken. For example, suppose you are trying to read some digits over a noisy phone link. If you are speaking English, a 'one' might be confused with a 'nine', because the sounds are quite similar, while it's unlikely that 'two' be confused with 'three'. In German, however, 'zwei' and 'drei' are similar but 'eins' and 'neun' are quite different. So saying the number in English and then in German (assuming that the receiver expects this), will be more robust than simple repetition in either language. You can think of WOLF as sending the message in six different languages. > This pre-supposes the RF link can support the narrower modulation, ie > the link is stable. What results there are for 137 across the Atlantic > does seem to support this view, no spreading of signals has been > observed over bandwidths much more than a 1/10 Hz. It might be argued > that a higher base modulation rate allows for faster and easier lock up > of demodulators, but the requirement for very high stability seems to be > necessary for Wolf anyway. If you want to coherently integrate over the entire transmission, the stability requirement is the same, regardless of the modulation rate used. > Lower modulation rates are easier to > synchronise to UTC (even by hand if need be !) which is fortunate, as > they would otherwise lead to long lock up times. > Indeed true. But, to get a decent transmission rate, e.g. fast enough to complete a QSO in an hour, you need an m-ary scheme such as Steve Olney's AFK. Unfortunately, most amateurs will need special (but simple) hardware to send it. And, with such hardware, including accurate synchronization to UTC is not difficult. So I'm not sure there is a big advantage to hand sync. > To summarise : > Heavy coding of a waveform that considerably reduces the data throughput > suffers from an abrupt threshold as S/N ratio falls. An uncoded > waveform at a lower data rate then has a higher chance of working. IMO, not true. Most coding gain (all but about 1 dB), can be had with a rate of 1/2. So, if the LORAN filter never succeeds, or if folks decide that WOLF simply hogs too much spectrum, a system at, say 2 bps with a rate 1/2 code may be the answer. It should be almost 5 dB better than an uncoded 1 bps system. If you insist on 1 bps, then we should take 160 seconds to send the message, and still use rate 1/2 coding. > > This subject is so fundamental that it feels that I am missing > something, everyone now seems to rely too heavily on coding. For > amateur purposes, are we doing the right thing just following the herd > where modest error rates (like 1/1000) are perfectly acceptable ? > Peter, G3PLX, went through similar arguments when designing PSK31 and > ended up with the narrowest signals ever to have been heard on HF. > > Andy G4JNT PSK31 is indeed impressive. But I think that Peter balanced social issues with technical ones when he made his design choices. It is well documented that the amount of data which can be sent with a given energy improves as you 'waste' bandwidth. The LF community will need to decide on an appropriate tradeoff. 73, Stewart KK7KA From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 16318 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 14:42:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2001 14:42:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 15852 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 14:41:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 1 May 2001 14:41:47 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ubDi-0007oh-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 15:33:42 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14ubDd-0007oa-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 15:33:37 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from [147.197.200.44] (helo=gemini) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #4) id 14ubD5-0006Tq-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 15:33:03 +0100 Message-ID: <9155.200105011433@gemini> From: "James Moritz" Organization: University of Hertfordshire To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 15:33:26 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: LF: Re: more Wolf tests X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Stewart, Andy, LF group, I will sort out some recorded .wav files - this will probably take a few days, as I have to find a way of transferring the requisite megabytes from my PC at home to the one at work to be e-mailed; I have a Zip disk drive somewhere that should do it. I will run the Wolf beacon again this evening for those who are setting up their receiving systems. I will use a frequency of 137.4400kHz again, and transmit at the 300mW ERP level from 2000 to 2100 utc, then from 2100 onwards at a 30mW ERP level. I will send a CW ID and carrier at the signal frequency for a few minutes at the start of each hour and half-hour period, for frequency checking purposes. If you are trying to receive the signal locally, remember that Wolf will not decode strong signals, so back the gain off so that the signal level is at least 20 or 30dB below the clipping level as indicated by the recording software. Regarding Andy's comments, I have been thinking along similar lines for somewhat different reasons. I don't claim to have expertise in this field, but suppose the data rate of Wolf was reduced by a factor of 10, ie, to 1 bit per second. What would be the effects? -The signal bandwidth would be reduced to a few Hz, greatly reducing pressure on the available spectrum -The reduced transmitted data rate should be largely made up for by the increased SNR possible in the narrower bandwidth, reducing the number of data frames required to be processed for successful decoding. So the overall throughput should be little changed. - The signal bandwidth would fit in the gaps between the Loran lines, etc., like a QRSS signal, so presumably further improving the SNR. -The overall amount of data to be processed in a given time would be reduced by an order of magnitude - this would reduce the time taken for the PC to process the received data, and so bring decoding nearer to "real time" without requiring a very fast PC. -Because each bit period is ten times longer, but the overall decoding period would be roughly the same, the bit-timing accuracy required from the soundcard or other interface would be reduced. The main drawback would be that increased demands would be made on TX and RX stability - probably an overall tolerance of about +/-0.1Hz or 1ppm. While this is easily acheived by equipment with temperature stabilised or compensated references, it is a bit much for most amateur HF gear. Perhaps it would be possible to improve the frequency tracking capabilities of Wolf to cope with this. I am not sure if I am just being naive, but it seems to be worth looking at the idea. It would be easy to try experiments along these lines, for example I could generate a slowed-down Wolf signal by a trivial alteration to the clock rate of my EPROM-based keyer. Receiving would be a little more difficult, but I imagine that VE2IQ's "Crunch" ought to be able to speed up the 1 bit/sec to 10 bits/sec, by setting a 10:1 "compression ratio". I guess it wouldn't be very hard to alter the Wolf program to achieve the same ends. I have done some experiments on the performance of Wolf signals in white noise from a noise generator - measuring signal and noise levels using a true-RMS voltmeter in 300Hz BW, I find that Wolf will successfully decode within 1632 seconds with a SNR of -34dB. As Andy suggests, there seems to be quite a sharp threshold. I plan to try some more experiments with CW and Loran interference to see how it compares. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 9174 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 12:55:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2001 12:55:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 22922 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 12:55:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 1 May 2001 12:55:12 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uZTN-0006tf-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 13:41:45 +0100 Received: from mail1.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.193.18]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uZTG-0006tY-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 13:41:39 +0100 Received: from modem-74.aranel.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.119.74] helo=g3aqc) by mail1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14uZSj-0001vt-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 13:41:05 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c0d233$a3bfe080$4a77883e@g3aqc> From: "Laurie Mayhead" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re. Ground systems Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:40:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hi Tom,
Grounding is the big problem at LF as I am sure you know.Radial systems that would be effective on 40, 80,or even 160 are impossible (100 X quarter wavelength makes the mind boggle)Ground penetration and the extent of the near field means that modest radial systems and short ground rods are virtually useless,and I have tried,I currently have about 500m of buried wire and 30  four foot rods.I recon I could disconnect most of this with no effect.I think that the same would apply to burried sheets of metal unless they were several hundred feet square ! Re. the water table  Fresh water is an insulator so no use. In the UK this winter the water table was on the surface,with no measurable difference to loss resistance. I live near salt water and a connection to the sea does help but only a little. For the Transatlantic tests I ran out 3 radial wires of about 150 feet to 4 ft rods in sea water . One helped but the others  added nothing. So use the biggest longest system you can find ie mains earth, water supply etc. but dont waste too much time with buried wires! far better to put more WIRE IN THE AIR.I have a theory that the top load should have as large a Footprint as possible.In my case the top load is 10X the length of the vert section.It does not need to be in a straight line and can zig-zag if necessesary.  Rik ON7YD has written this up in his "Antennas for 136kHz . see www.qsl.net/on7yd/
Hpoe this some help. 73s Laurie.
From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 28225 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 11:07:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2001 11:07:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 4582 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 11:07:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 1 May 2001 11:07:14 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uXpj-00066b-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 11:56:43 +0100 Received: from cobalt4.source.net ([206.100.10.38]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uXpi-00066U-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 11:56:42 +0100 Received: from parissn2 (AMontsouris-101-1-2-155.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.39.155]) by cobalt4.source.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA04622 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 03:56:05 -0700 Message-ID: <001501c0d22d$58de2a50$0700000a@parissn2> From: "Stewart Nelson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3AEE8037.22045.5DE5B@localhost> <003101c0d227$4474d9c0$0700000a@parissn2> Subject: Re: LF: Wolf Tests (file request correction) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:56:15 +0200 Organization: SC Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi All, Sorry, I just discovered that my attachment size limit is only 3.8 MB. That should still be enough for 7 minutes at 8 kHz, 8 bits. 73, Stewart ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stewart Nelson" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 12:12 PM Subject: Re: LF: Wolf Tests > Hi Mike, Jim, and all, > > I would like to get copies of your recordings, when you failed to copy Larry, > so I can try to improve WOLF's QRM rejection and tracking. Recordings from > others are also welcome. Please include your estimates of sample rate, center > frequency, and original RF Tx frequency. > > Seven minutes, at the time you feel decoding should have been most likely, > should be plenty. Five minutes is probably adequate. > > My mail server will only accept attachments of up to about 7 MB. If you > have problems with upload speed, you might want to send less than that. > To reduce file size, if the original recording is 16-bit, convert to > 8-bit. In Cool Edit, use Edit->Convert Sample Type. That won't add > significant noise, provided that frequent signal peaks are -6 dB or > higher. If necessary (for file size), convert the sample rate to > 8000 Hz in the same operation. If the original level is low, try > Transform->Amplitude->Normalize first. Normalize to about 80%. > ZIPping the resulting 8-bit file should make it a little smaller. > > Of course, if you have a server to which you can upload the file, do > so and just send me the URL. Don't bother with any file conversions > if upload speed and server space are not problems. I'll let you know > as soon as I fetch the data, so you can delete it and reclaim the space. > > 73, > > Stewart KK7KA > > > From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5347 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 10:47:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2001 10:47:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 6714 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 10:46:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 1 May 2001 10:46:32 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uXbH-00065B-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 11:41:47 +0100 Received: from bob.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uXbD-000655-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 11:41:43 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: by bob.dera.gov.uk; (8.8.8/1.3/10May95) id LAA12310; Tue, 1 May 2001 11:44:55 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 21271 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 09:49:27 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk (172.16.9.10) by baton.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 1 May 2001 09:49:27 -0000 Received: by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk; id JAA26808; Tue, 1 May 2001 09:45:31 GMT Received: from unknown(10.71.64.31) by gauntlet.mail.dera.gov.uk via smap (3.2) id xma026770; Tue, 1 May 01 09:45:03 GMT Received: from frn-gold-1.dera.gov.uk (unverified) by mailguard.dera.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 1 May 2001 10:02:04 +0100 Received: by frn-gold-1.dera.gov.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Tue, 1 May 2001 09:54:45 +0100 Message-ID: <65AECDF1F89AD411900400508BFC869F9C047A@pdw-mail-1.dera.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Cc: "PLX \(E-mail\)" Subject: LF: RE: Wolf Tests Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:54:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: A recent discussion with G3PLX made something click in my mind about the widespread adoption of Wolf for LF communications, and is it really the right way to go ? A heavily coded relatively wideband data signal such as this exhibits a pronounced threshold effect, such that copy is either good or fails completely. Coding can do an excelent job against interference such as burst errors but is not so effective against a signal that is just too weak to start with. Consider this situation : An uncoded non-differential BPSK waveform at 10 bits/s is used. From standard graphs of error rate vs. Signal / Noise ratio, in the 10 Hz bandwidth ideally needed for this signalling waveform, would require about 7dB S/N for good copy, assuming 1 error per 1000 bits transmitted If S/N fell to 4dB, raw bit error rate will fall to 1 per 100 (10^-2) and at 2dB S/N falls to 1/30. At 1db S/N is may be possible to achieve an error rate in the region of 1/10, but the curves in text books rarely go back this far because for all practical purposes the link is unusaeble at this level ! A heavily coded scheme such as Wolf can take a moderately poor error rate and make it better by repeats of the data and error correction. But this presupposes a certain BER to start with. Bear in mind that random noise, will give an error rate of 0.5, since there is as likely a probability of a bit chosen at random of being correct as not. I have not even tried to work out what raw error rate (at 10b/s) is needed for Wolf to work "reasonably well", but assume Wolf can cope perfectly with 1 bit in 6 being in error - just a gut feeling based on it being a rate 1/6 code, but it does not matter too much what figure is chosen here. 1/6 error rate comes from a S/N of around 0dB (plus / minus a dB or so). Now, each character in Wolf, which corresponds to 5.33 bits of data, effectively takes 64 bits to send - 960 bits taking 96 seconds for a full 15 character message. Now consider a lower rate signalling waveform - say 1b/s. Now, good copy at an error rate of 1/1000 again occurs at a S/N of 7dB, but this time in a bandwidth of 1Hz, a 10dB lower noise level. This level of signal would correspond to -3dB S/N in the original 10Hz bandwidth. Even without coding of the 1b/s signal we have gained something like 3dB signalling performance, and furthermore, keeping with 5.33 bits per character, we can now send the complete message in 80 seconds. This pre-supposes the RF link can support the narrower modulation, ie the link is stable. What results there are for 137 across the Atlantic does seem to support this view, no spreading of signals has been observed over bandwidths much more than a 1/10 Hz. It might be argued that a higher base modulation rate allows for faster and easier lock up of demodulators, but the requirement for very high stability seems to be necessary for Wolf anyway. Lower modulation rates are easier to synchronise to UTC (even by hand if need be !) which is fortunate, as they would otherwise lead to long lock up times. To summarise : Heavy coding of a waveform that considerably reduces the data throughput suffers from an abrupt threshold as S/N ratio falls. An uncoded waveform at a lower data rate then has a higher chance of working. This subject is so fundamental that it feels that I am missing something, everyone now seems to rely too heavily on coding. For amateur purposes, are we doing the right thing just following the herd where modest error rates (like 1/1000) are perfectly acceptable ? Peter, G3PLX, went through similar arguments when designing PSK31 and ended up with the narrowest signals ever to have beeen heard on HF. Andy G4JNT -- The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s). For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is prohibited and may be unlawful. From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 3512 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 10:21:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2001 10:21:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 22746 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 10:20:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 1 May 2001 10:20:34 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uX9l-0005ri-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 11:13:21 +0100 Received: from cobalt4.source.net ([206.100.10.38]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uX9g-0005rd-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 11:13:17 +0100 Received: from parissn2 (AMontsouris-101-1-2-155.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.39.155]) by cobalt4.source.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA02638 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 03:12:34 -0700 Message-ID: <003101c0d227$4474d9c0$0700000a@parissn2> From: "Stewart Nelson" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <3AEE8037.22045.5DE5B@localhost> Subject: Re: LF: Wolf Tests Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:12:44 +0200 Organization: SC Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Hi Mike, Jim, and all, I would like to get copies of your recordings, when you failed to copy Larry, so I can try to improve WOLF's QRM rejection and tracking. Recordings from others are also welcome. Please include your estimates of sample rate, center frequency, and original RF Tx frequency. Seven minutes, at the time you feel decoding should have been most likely, should be plenty. Five minutes is probably adequate. My mail server will only accept attachments of up to about 7 MB. If you have problems with upload speed, you might want to send less than that. To reduce file size, if the original recording is 16-bit, convert to 8-bit. In Cool Edit, use Edit->Convert Sample Type. That won't add significant noise, provided that frequent signal peaks are -6 dB or higher. If necessary (for file size), convert the sample rate to 8000 Hz in the same operation. If the original level is low, try Transform->Amplitude->Normalize first. Normalize to about 80%. ZIPping the resulting 8-bit file should make it a little smaller. Of course, if you have a server to which you can upload the file, do so and just send me the URL. Don't bother with any file conversions if upload speed and server space are not problems. I'll let you know as soon as I fetch the data, so you can delete it and reclaim the space. 73, Stewart KK7KA From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 15187 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 08:46:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 1 May 2001 08:46:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 6066 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 08:46:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 1 May 2001 08:46:27 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uVaA-00055J-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 09:32:30 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from [213.2.16.106] (helo=rsgb.org.uk) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uVa6-00055E-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 09:32:26 +0100 Received: from miked by rsgb.org.uk with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.8.7.5.R) for ; Tue, 01 May 2001 09:22:01 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Mike Dennison" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:21:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: LF: Wolf Tests Message-ID: <3AEE8037.22045.5DE5B@localhost> In-reply-to: <26767.200104301458@gemini> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Return-Path: miked@mail Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: M0BMU wrote: > Have not been very active lately due to visiting relatives, but I > have been making regular recordings on 137.79kHz in an attempt > to receive VA3LK's Wolf-mode beacon sigs. So far, however, > nothing to report - solar activity has been mostly high since I > started, so perhaps this is to be expected. Nothing positive identified here either. I did get two consecutive lines ending in 'LK', but could not tweak things to get any closer. I suspect that coincidence is the culprit, not Larry. > ...................I think there may be more problems due > to the various carriers that exist within the bandwidth occupied by > the Wolf signals - as far as I can tell, these effectively increase the > noise level, and the Wolf signal is too wide to avoid them in the > same way as can be done with QRSS. So it might be worth looking > for a quieter part of the band relatively free from carriers. I certainly received what appeared to be a valid signal as the 'f' reading went gradually down to zero and the 'jm' reading gradually went up, but perhaps this was just a carrier it found. I certainly did not get any valid data. Can WOLF be run slower, and hence narrower, to get between the carriers? Or does this make it just as slow as 3s QRSS, and hence defeat the object? > The thing to remember about the figures generated by Wolf is that > they don't mean very much unless a signal really is being decoded. > It is instructive to make a recording of some noise, and run it > through Wolf - as often as not, strings of identical -f and -jm figures > will appear, as they do for a real signal. This means that trying to > optimise Wolf parameters using the numbers generated by Wolf is > unlikely to be helpful unless a signal has already decoded > successfully. As I note above, it is usually a good sign when the 'f' reduces and the 'jm' increases. > I will run my Wolf-mode beacon again over the next few days if > anyone is interested; the frequency and bit rate of this is accurate > enough to use as a calibration reference for setting up a Wolf > receiving system. This would be useful, Jim. I am running Cool Edit at 11025 sample rate now and this does seem to be less fiddly. It would help to have a known WOLF signal to work on, though. Mike, G3XDV (IO91VT) http://www.lf.thersgb.net From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 27639 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2001 23:38:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 30 Apr 2001 23:38:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 776 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2001 23:38:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 30 Apr 2001 23:38:31 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uN8z-0001LJ-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 00:31:53 +0100 Received: from tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.34]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uN8y-0001LE-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 01 May 2001 00:31:52 +0100 Received: from server1 ([209.226.189.33]) by tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with SMTP id <20010430233051.ZIBK6402.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@server1> for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:30:51 -0400 Message-ID: <003401c0d1cd$60e3da20$0a00a8c0@ThreeLakes.ca> From: "Larry Kayser" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <26767.200104301458@gemini> Subject: LF: Re: Wolf Tests Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:29:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Jim: > I would think the fact that Larry is physically relatively close to CFH > makes it unlikely that his signal would cause QRM to the users of > CFH - I suppose there is an area around Larry's QTH where his > signal is strong enough to cause problems for CFH reception; but > since CFH is much higher power, and the signal bandwidth quite > narrow, this area must be very small. Since Larry is inland of CFH, > I think it is unlikely that his signal is ever going to be a problem to > the Canadian navy, even on an adjacent frequency. There is more > likely to be a difficulty for them from European stations on this side > of the Atlantic, where CFH is relatively weak. Interesting. You must be thinking of real interference. My concern is not with real interference it is with the perception of interference and what goes with that kind of possible issue. An untimely or unguarded comment - just the things that could put a large spanner in the works. Larry VA3LK From rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sun Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 22156 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2001 22:06:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by excalibur.plus.net with SMTP; 30 Apr 2001 22:06:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 4750 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2001 22:06:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 30 Apr 2001 22:06:08 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uLiA-0000cN-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 23:00:06 +0100 Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.74]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14uLi6-0000bv-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 23:00:03 +0100 Received: from kd4wovlaptop2 (sdn-ar-002mospriP033.dialsprint.net [168.191.168.145]) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA20696 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:59:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "KD4WOV Tom Tishken" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Ground Systems Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:59:28 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <26767.200104301458@gemini> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: I am curious about the grounding systems people are using. Is anyone using multiple ground rods bonded together? Is anyone using a well that is drilled into the water table? Has anyone used sheets of metal buried vertically in the ground as a earth ground? I am curious, because i know on the lower ham bands 160 - 40 meter a multiple ground rod system or a water well is a must for a good ground system to be effective.