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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Wolfgang_B=c3=bcscher?= <dl4yhf@freenet.de>
Message-ID: <75f11157-5e1c-4402-6aa2-4c1a364620d7@freenet.de>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 11:05:20 +0100
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Subject: Re: LF: Re: Re Loomis? & ... 12.47 Hz
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Greetings,

How about using an ancient high-voltage "ballast" triode, as used in 
colour TVs ? They may emit some X-rays when fed with anode voltages 
above 30 kV (no risk, no fun) but they are very rugged. I have rescued 
some of them from the junk because of the nice large anode gap. They 
always sat in a large metal cage near the flyback transformer, along 
with the HV rectifier tube.

73,
   Wolf .

On 10.03.2019 09:58, Jacek Lipkowski wrote:
> I haven't tried this with 300m kites, but even ordinary low-band 
> dipoles can charge quite quickly if they are high enough, so 100uA 
> seems to be a good approximation. This is already comparable with the 
> 170uA you're getting at 12.71Hz now (and which will be lower at lower 
> frequencies).
>
> The only problem is the switch, but a high voltage vacuum relay (or a 
> few in series with a piece of fiberoptic for controlling each of them) 
> should be sufficient upto a few Hz.
>
> Also note that the more charge in the atmosphere, the more ERP you 
> get. But it also gets more dangerous. No risk no fun on the "loomis 
> band" :)
>
> VY 73
>
> Jacek / SQ5BPF
>
>
>
> On Sat, 9 Mar 2019, DK7FC wrote:
>
>> Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2019 22:31:41 +0100
>> From: DK7FC <selberdenken@posteo.de>
>> Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
>> To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
>> Subject: LF: Re: Re Loomis?  & ... 12.47 Hz
>>
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> I hope you don't mind that i'd like to share the email with the 
>> reflector, because i've a thought that might be interesting.
>>
>> In my view, the Loomis experiment it is rather the detection of a 
>> changing current (charge per time) on the RX site. The changing 
>> current is
>> coming from a change in the static electric field, caused by the 
>> shortcutted 'TX' antenna. Something like a current divider.
>>
>> In 2010/2011 i've done VLF transmissions on my own, using a 300m 
>> vertical kite antenna (having a special licence for that altitude). The
>> antenna capacity was about 1.5 nF. During an experiment in the summer 
>> time there was a short moment when the vertical wire was floating. It
>> quickly charged up to some kV, which was quite noticable when i 
>> catched and touched the wire then!! Since that time i carefully kept 
>> the wire
>> grounded during such experiments.
>> So, it means that the wire charged up, so there must be some 
>> continuous charge flowing onto the wire and, if the wire would be 
>> grounded
>> permanently, you could probably measure a more or less stable 
>> current, i guess it would be some 100 uA.
>> Now imagine someone else would rise a grounded kite in a few meters 
>> distance. This would certainly affect the current flowing in my kite 
>> wire.
>> The farer both 'antennas', the lower expressed the effect will be and 
>> the higher the antennas, the stronger it will be expressed.
>>
>> I think the effect would be much better expressed by measuring the 
>> voltage across a 1 MOhm resistor instead, which could be done by using a
>> scope and some overvoltage protection!
>> Actually an interesting question: In the summer time, which DC 
>> voltage could be measured over a 1 MOhm resistor when connecting to a 
>> large E
>> field antenna and ground?
>> And, a next step: If i let my antenna charge up (floating) and then 
>> discharge it in exact time intervals, say each second, then i should see
>> something at 1 Hz on a suitable receiver. This would already come 
>> close to the experiment i'v done. I'm just replacing the 'natural charge
>> source' by a high voltage power supply and modulate that voltage 
>> (with a sine wave, not rectangular).
>>
>> So, to answer your question, i think that Loomis experiment was not 
>> dedicated ELF, it was rather a broad-band spectrum that was radiated, 
>> since
>> the charged antenna was discharged immediately. For a real ELF 
>> transmission i would say that the carrier frequency has to be at ELF, 
>> not the
>> modulating frequency. OK here you might say the carrier frequency is 
>> 0 and it is AM modulated...
>>
>> Try to repeat the experiment! Use smaller antennas and shorter 
>> distances. Could be interesting :-) Rise two 10m high wires in 10m 
>> distance in
>> an open field. Connect one of them to a scope (1 MOhm input 
>> resistance), protect the input with a glow lamp. Keep the other wire 
>> floating.
>> Select 1 second/div. If there is a thunderstorm coming and you can 
>> see a rising DC level on the scope, then do a shortcircuit on the other
>> wire. I bet you will see the voltage dropping on the scope.
>>
>> 73, Stefan
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 09.03.2019 19:10, schrieb James Hollander:
>>       Hi Jacek and Stefan,     I?d like to suggest that while I can?t 
>> say for sure there weren't ELF frequencies received in the Loomis
>>       experiment of 1866, I?m hesitant to reach the conclusion ELF 
>> was used by Loomis because of the following questions.
>>       1) If the transient current that flowed when Loomis? 
>> transmitter circuit was closed probably lasted only a few 
>> milliseconds, wouldn?t
>> the modulation frequency content exceed at least the upper ELF 
>> boundary 30Hz as impressed on the ?carrier??
>>       2)  With a 600? long TX antenna and only a galvanometer fed by 
>> similar height RX antenna, wouldn?t any radio waves that might have been
>> received be shorter than 10x the wavelength for which a 600? TX 
>> antenna is a quarter wavelength?    10x(600?x4)=24000? or about 
>> 8km.   If the
>> wavelength is less than about 8km, wouldn?t the ?carrier? frequency 
>> content exceed about  37 KHz?
>>       3)  Nevertheless, one might say, if galvanometer deflected 
>> temporarily in Loomis? system, it must have detected some near-DC 
>> content
>> unless some nonlinear element were in the receiving circuit.   If I 
>> Fourier Transform a damped DC transient, what is the frequency
>> content?
>>       4) If there were DC transfer, wouldn't we say it's in the 
>> nature of a current charging an atmosphere-ground capacitance through 
>> the
>> ground resistance, not radio in near field ELF?  Or should we say the 
>> meaning of ?frequency? in this case becomes so fuzzy that Loomis both
>> did and didn?t use ELF?
>>       5)  If indeed Loomis communicated any ELF, can?t one still 
>> radically distinguish the 12.67 Hz experiment at DK7FC as involving a
>>  very narrow band  continuous wave with 227 hours integration of this 
>> continuous wave to detect it and make it separable from other waves
>> that could be generated in the ELF band?
>>       I?m new to the subject of ELF, and would appreciate any words 
>> of wisdom you?d like to give.
>> Vy 73, Jim Hollander W5EST
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jacek Lipkowski <sq5bpf@lipkowski.org>
>> To: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
>> Sent: Sat, Mar 9, 2019 4:28 am
>> Subject: Re: LF: RE: RE: Almost touching the ground... | 12.47 Hz
>>
>> Actually a similar experiment to Stefan's has been done already, and at
>> much lower frequencies (almost 0Hz :):
>>
>> http://aerohistory.org/Wireless/loomis.html
>>
>> In this case the power supply is from the cloud electric field and
>> probably had quite a few more kV than Stefan's.
>>
>> Please note the DX distance.
>>
>> VY 73
>>
>> Jacek / SQ5BPF
>>
>> From: DK7FC <selberdenken@posteo.de>     To: rsgb_lf_group 
>> <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
>> Sent: Tue, Mar 5, 2019 12:50 pm    Subject: ELF: Almost touching the 
>> ground... | 12.47 Hz
>> Hi ELF friends,        During the last 2 weeks i've done another 
>> experiment on ELF, this time
>> on 12.47 Hz, the 24 Mm band (wavelength 24057 km). Again i've crossed 
>> the local distance of 3.5 km. That's the lowest frequency i've ever
>> been and it feels like i can see the ground already :-)    The 
>> dimensions of everything down there are extreme. I've integrated 227 
>> hours
>> of a carrier transmission into one spectrum peak, it is shown in the 
>> attachment in 1.25 uHz. This carrier could have transferred an
>> EbNaut message of nearly 100 characters.
>>
>> The ERP was 50 attowatt or -163 dBW and the antenna current was 170 
>> uA only, despite about 5 kV antenna voltage.
>>
>> I'm now trying to put a step below 10 Hz but the RX antenna becomes 
>> less efficient with each Hz. 73, Stefan
>>
>>
>>
>>