Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id x15KFHpj011347 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 21:15:24 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1gr6xC-0007p2-TY for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 05 Feb 2019 20:04:22 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1gr6xB-0007on-BM for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 05 Feb 2019 20:04:21 +0000 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gr6x9-0003Q2-2W for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 05 Feb 2019 20:04:20 +0000 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EF55160068 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 21:03:47 +0100 (CET) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=posteo.de Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.de; s=2017; t=1549397030; bh=v6j7lSRcfJ1xJrsgS8zXN0pnr3oKpshl7mKrzEmw8dE=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=kibZOTwfySar9LPQ+mjEJD9c8D4SGr2gEhP+MLT0X3EQWB/G2dnCetZ/PGHaNQ+kD 7/5GbGIy9UT/AIPSKuiDcYeELaVSYW2Thq4jHarJRBhXG8tQeCYcsUNcwQektgmxy0 Ts83NqTnxlDpLqgBX6UFaoZL7a7CPpJzuOgX4xdm8G705DVavNcFe4Hf7tEJHohqtJ wdYs1HCHHXbkHBdvXgQth5ZtYuYFux4wuOox/MT7W9D2/QlTEUlJeswOuqjVPNyXMg 4mlVbjojm7GIkpPPUw9N6FJfNoqzcnV7BKUgWk0EgFOt953sjqn2rAeJmceXCtwLjZ xJHG5h8QNp1MA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 43vFkx5P1pz6v6K for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 20:58:49 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <5C59EAF9.6050405@posteo.de> Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2019 20:58:49 +0100 From: DK7FC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <1615191474.2898208.1549314515047.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1615191474.2898208.1549314515047@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1615191474.2898208.1549314515047@mail.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hell Markus, LF, While walking to the tree today (which takes at about 30 minutes, you know) i had a thought/idea how the double shift keying for WSPR could be made: Let's assume the frequency (audio) is known to +- 2 [...] Content analysis details: (-2.3 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -2.3 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, medium trust [185.67.36.65 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 55db901127f87fafbf8ae301dac99c44 Subject: Re: LF: Naive WSPR15 question Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060606050602010600010109" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060606050602010600010109 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hell Markus, LF, While walking to the tree today (which takes at about 30 minutes, you know) i had a thought/idea how the double shift keying for WSPR could be made: Let's assume the frequency (audio) is known to +- 200 mHz maybe, let's say 1500 Hz. Then, would it be possible to use a SpecLab instance and measure the frequency arround 1500+-3 Hz which has the highest signal level? This way one could identify which of the 4 FSK frequencies is getting out of the WSPR software in that moment. Then, could we say, using the conditional actions, if frequency is higher than x and lower than y, that this is identified as '2' (1, 2, 3, 4). And then, if '2' is identified, use the signal generator and transmit on another frequency, which is then at twice the shift frequency from the center. All in all, just 4 lines in the conditional actions window (maybe adding a minimum signal level is required also to give a 'true'). So, determine the input frequency and generate another one using the internal signal generator? This must be a fast running spectrogram / FFT, to be fast enough but it should be no problem. There must be no significant drift of the TX though but that could be possible too. I expressed myselfe a bit difficult but i guess you know what i mean. But i try to make it a bot more clear (for me too ;-) ): From the file 'wsptones.txt' i got the information that 0= 1497.803 Hz 1= 1499.268 Hz 2= 1500.732 Hz 3= 1502.197 Hz The difference between 2 steps is 1.465 Hz, obviously. So, if the detected frequency from the input is higher than 1500 Hz and lower than 1501.465 Hz, then this is '2'. And then, the signal generator must produce a frequency of 1501.465 Hz instead, which is '2' with twice the offset from the center frequency. And so on... If this output signal is upconvertred by 272 kHz and then sum is divided by 2, we should come out at the normal WSPR spacing at 137.5 kHz. This would then also work without the slow WSPR tool and should also work for WSPR-15... 73, Stefan Am 04.02.2019 22:08, schrieb Markus Vester: > Hi Stefan, Chris, > > in principle yes… (R. Eriwan) > > The old tools from 2012 are here > http://df6nm.bplaced.net/wspr/slowWSPR.zip > But they used a homemade 16-bit-utility "waitraster" for timing, which > is no longer supported by 64-bit Win-7 and Win 10. This can be > replaced by simple DOS commands, which has so far been implemented > for receiving WSPR-15 > https://klubnl.pl/rsgb_lf_group-archives/html/rsgb_lf_group/2018-11/msg00318.html > but not yet for transmitting. So a little more work will be needed. > > On the other hand, I'm asking myself why so many people still insist > on having dividers before their PA's. It only makes life more > difficult, and undermines coherent EbNaut or Opera signal transmissions. > > Best 73, > Markus (DF6NM) > > -----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung----- > Von: DK7FC > An: rsgb_lf_group > Verschickt: Mo, 4. Feb. 2019 21:11 > Betreff: Re: LF: Naive WSPR15 question > > ...i checked some files from the slow_WSPR tool. I think i would be able > to solve the problem. Maybe Markus likes to confirm that this could work > (getting a factor 2 in the frequency shift)? > Chris, it would then be worth to try the normal tool first. > > 73, Stefan > > Am 04.02.2019 20:25, schrieb DK7FC: > > Hello Chris, > > > > For a clever person it is very easy :-) > > It will depend on which way you want to generate WSPR. > > Here, for example, i have a Raspi which generates my WSPR (2) for MF. > > I modified the c source code so that the frequency is 4 times higher > > and the frequency shift is 4 times higher too. In my PA, probably like > > in yours, there is a frequency divider using CD4013 ICs which > > reproduce the desired frequency and frequency shift. Of course this > > can be done with a factor 2 too. > > For Windows solutions, there is DF6NMs tool for slow WSPR which works > > very reliable here, for WSPR-2 and WSPR-15. I'm sure this can be > > modified for twice the frequency shift but then you will need an > > upconverter to convert it to LF or MF... > > > > 73, Stefan > > > > Am 04.02.2019 13:21, schrieb Chris Wilson: > >> > >> Hello LF, > >> > >> A naive question re WSPR15 please? Assuming the source code is > >> available how hard would it be for a clever person to add X2 > >> functionality to it? Thanks. > >> > > > --------------060606050602010600010109 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hell Markus, LF,

While walking to the tree today (which takes at about 30 minutes, you know) i had a thought/idea how the double shift keying for WSPR could be made:
Let's assume the frequency (audio) is known to +- 200 mHz maybe, let's say 1500 Hz. Then, would it be possible to use a SpecLab instance and measure the frequency arround 1500+-3 Hz which has the highest signal level? This way one could identify which of the 4 FSK frequencies is getting out of the WSPR software in that moment. Then, could we say, using the conditional actions, if frequency is higher than x and lower than y, that this is identified as '2' (1, 2, 3, 4). And then, if '2' is identified, use the signal generator and transmit on another frequency, which is then at twice the shift frequency from the center. All in all, just 4 lines in the conditional actions window (maybe adding a minimum signal level is required also to give a 'true').
So, determine the input frequency and generate another one using the internal signal generator?
This must be a fast running spectrogram / FFT, to be fast enough but it should be no problem. There must be no significant drift of the TX though but that could be possible too.
I expressed myselfe a bit difficult but i guess you know what i mean. But i try to make it a bot more clear (for me too ;-) ):
>From the file 'wsptones.txt' i got the information that
0= 1497.803 Hz
1= 1499.268 Hz
2= 1500.732 Hz
3= 1502.197 Hz
The difference between 2 steps is 1.465 Hz, obviously.
So, if the detected frequency from the input is higher than 1500 Hz and lower than 1501.465 Hz, then this is '2'. And then, the signal generator must produce a frequency of 1501.465 Hz instead, which is '2' with twice the offset from the center frequency. And so on...
If this output signal is upconvertred by 272 kHz and then sum is divided by 2, we should come out at the normal WSPR spacing at 137.5 kHz.
This would then also work without the slow WSPR tool and should also work for WSPR-15...

73, Stefan



Am 04.02.2019 22:08, schrieb Markus Vester:
Hi Stefan, Chris,

in principle yes… (R. Eriwan)

The old tools from 2012 are here 
http://df6nm.bplaced.net/wspr/slowWSPR.zip
But they used a homemade 16-bit-utility "waitraster" for timing, which is no longer supported by 64-bit Win-7 and Win 10. This can be replaced by simple DOS commands, which has so far been implemented for receiving WSPR-15
https://klubnl.pl/rsgb_lf_group-archives/html/rsgb_lf_group/2018-11/msg00318.html
but not yet for transmitting. So a little more work will be needed.

On the other hand, I'm asking myself why so many people still insist on having dividers before their PA's. It only makes life more difficult, and undermines coherent EbNaut or Opera signal transmissions. 

Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)

-----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: DK7FC <selberdenken@posteo.de>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: Mo, 4. Feb. 2019 21:11
Betreff: Re: LF: Naive WSPR15 question

...i checked some files from the slow_WSPR tool. I think i would be able
to solve the problem. Maybe Markus likes to confirm that this could work
(getting a factor 2 in the frequency shift)?
Chris, it would then be worth to try the normal tool first.

73, Stefan

Am 04.02.2019 20:25, schrieb DK7FC:
> Hello Chris,
>
> For a clever person it is very easy :-)
> It will depend on which way you want to generate WSPR.
> Here, for example, i have a Raspi which generates my WSPR (2) for MF.
> I modified the c source code so that the frequency is 4 times higher
> and the frequency shift is 4 times higher too. In my PA, probably like
> in yours, there is a frequency divider using CD4013 ICs which
> reproduce the desired frequency and frequency shift. Of course this
> can be done with a factor 2 too.
> For Windows solutions, there is DF6NMs tool for slow WSPR which works
> very reliable here, for WSPR-2 and WSPR-15. I'm sure this can be
> modified for twice the frequency shift but then you will need an
> upconverter to convert it to LF or MF...
>
> 73, Stefan
>
> Am 04.02.2019 13:21, schrieb Chris Wilson:
>>
>> Hello  LF,
>>
>>    A  naive  question  re  WSPR15  please?  Assuming the source code is
>>    available  how  hard  would  it  be  for  a  clever person to add X2
>>    functionality to it? Thanks.
>>
>

--------------060606050602010600010109--