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The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: If you want to use SpecLab as a frequency doubler, you could simply employ the "amplitude demodulator" e.g. in the L1-L2 blackbox. With high enough output bandwidth (> 5000 Hz), it acts as a full-wa [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [74.6.131.124 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (markusvester[at]aol.com) 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: b322dc0956bb435e223041a6879534f9 Subject: Re: LF: Naive WSPR15 question Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3607993_1701696998.1549406541236" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3.2 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_MUA_MOZILLA,HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false ------=_Part_3607993_1701696998.1549406541236 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you want to use SpecLab as a frequency doubler, you could simply employ = the "amplitude demodulator"=C2=A0e.g. in the L1-L2 blackbox.=C2=A0With high= enough output bandwidth (> 5000 Hz), it acts as a full-wave rectifier, pro= ducing=C2=A0DC, 2xf and=C2=A0higher even-numbered harmonics. These can then= be filtered by a bandpass filter around 2xf, and=C2=A0also=C2=A0frequency = shifted=C2=A0before or after doubling. BTW I have=C2=A0employed this scheme to frequency-double=C2=A0the MSK-signa= l=C2=A0from NWC, producing a pair of spectral lines whose=C2=A0absolute=C2= =A0phase is=C2=A0plotted on the DL0AO VLF-grabber. Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung----- Von: DK7FC An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Di, 5. Feb. 2019 21:06 Betreff: Re: LF: Naive WSPR15 question Hell Markus, LF, While walking to the tree today (which takes at about 30 minutes, youknow) = i had a thought/idea how the double shift keying for WSPR couldbe made: Let's assume the frequency (audio) is known to +- 200 mHz maybe, let'ssay 1= 500 Hz. Then, would it be possible to use a SpecLab instance andmeasure the= frequency arround 1500+-3 Hz which has the highest signallevel? This way o= ne could identify which of the 4 FSK frequencies isgetting out of the WSPR = software in that moment. Then, could we say,using the conditional actions, = if frequency is higher than x and lowerthan y, that this is identified as '= 2' (1, 2, 3, 4). And then, if '2'is identified, use the signal generator an= d transmit on anotherfrequency, which is then at twice the shift frequency = from the center.All in all, just 4 lines in the conditional actions window = (maybeadding a minimum signal level is required also to give a 'true'). So, determine the input frequency and generate another one using theinterna= l signal generator? This must be a fast running spectrogram / FFT, to be fast enough but itshou= ld be no problem. There must be no significant drift of the TXthough but th= at could be possible too. I expressed myselfe a bit difficult but i guess you know what i mean.But i = try to make it a bot more clear (for me too ;-) ): >From the file 'wsptones.txt' i got the information that=20 0=3D 1497.803 Hz 1=3D 1499.268 Hz 2=3D 1500.732 Hz 3=3D 1502.197 Hz The difference between 2 steps is 1.465 Hz, obviously. So, if the detected frequency from the input is higher than 1500 Hz andlowe= r than 1501.465 Hz, then this is '2'. And then, the signalgenerator must pr= oduce a frequency of 1501.465 Hz instead, which is '2'with twice the offset= from the center frequency. And so on... If this output signal is upconvertred by 272 kHz and then sum isdivided by = 2, we should come out at the normal WSPR spacing at 137.5kHz. This would then also work without the slow WSPR tool and should alsowork fo= r WSPR-15... 73, Stefan Am 04.02.2019 22:08, schrieb Markus Vester: HiStefan, Chris, =20 in principle yes=E2=80=A6 (R. Eriwan) =20 The old tools from 2012 are here=C2=A0 http://df6nm.bplaced.net/wspr/slowWSPR.zip=20 But they used a homemade=C2=A016-bit-utility "waitraster" for timing, which= is no longer supported by 64-bit Win-7 and Win 10. This=C2=A0can be replace= dby simple DOS commands, which=C2=A0has so far been implemented for=C2=A0re= ceivingWSPR-15 https://klubnl.pl/rsgb_lf_group-archives/html/rsgb_lf_group/2018-11/msg0031= 8.html but not yet for transmitting.=C2=A0So a little more work=C2=A0will be neede= d. =20 On the other hand, I'm asking myself=C2=A0why=C2=A0so many people=C2=A0stil= l insiston=C2=A0having=C2=A0dividers before their PA's.=C2=A0It only makes = life moredifficult, and=C2=A0undermines coherent=C2=A0EbNaut or Opera signa= ltransmissions.=C2=A0 =20 Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) =20 -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung----- Von: DK7FC An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Mo, 4. Feb. 2019 21:11 Betreff: Re: LF: Naive WSPR15 question =20 ...i checked some files from the slow_WSPR tool. Ithink i would be able= =20 to solve the problem. Maybe Markus likes to confirm that this couldwork=20 (getting a factor 2 in the frequency shift)? Chris, it would then be worth to try the normal tool first. =20 73, Stefan =20 Am 04.02.2019 20:25, schrieb DK7FC: > Hello Chris, > > For a clever person it is very easy :-) > It will depend on which way you want to generate WSPR. > Here, for example, i have a Raspi which generates my WSPR (2) forMF.=20 > I modified the c source code so that the frequency is 4 timeshigher=20 > and the frequency shift is 4 times higher too. In my PA, probablylike=20 > in yours, there is a frequency divider using CD4013 ICs which=20 > reproduce the desired frequency and frequency shift. Of coursethis=20 > can be done with a factor 2 too. > For Windows solutions, there is DF6NMs tool for slow WSPR whichworks=20 > very reliable here, for WSPR-2 and WSPR-15. I'm sure this can be=20 > modified for twice the frequency shift but then you will need an=20 > upconverter to convert it to LF or MF... > > 73, Stefan > > Am 04.02.2019 13:21, schrieb Chris Wilson: >> >> Hello=C2=A0 LF, >> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A=C2=A0 naive=C2=A0 question=C2=A0 re=C2=A0 WSPR15=C2=A0 pl= ease?=C2=A0 Assuming thesource code is >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 available=C2=A0 how=C2=A0 hard=C2=A0 would=C2=A0 it=C2=A0 b= e=C2=A0 for=C2=A0 a=C2=A0 clever personto add X2 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionality to it? Thanks. >> > =20 =20 ------=_Part_3607993_1701696998.1549406541236 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you want to use SpecLab as a frequency do= ubler, you could simply employ the "amplitude demodulator" e.g. in the= L1-L2 blackbox. With high enough output bandwidth (> 5000 Hz), it = acts as a full-wave rectifier, producing DC, 2xf and higher even-= numbered harmonics. These can then be filtered by a bandpass filter around = 2xf, and also frequency shifted before or after doubling.
BTW I have employed this scheme to frequency-double the MSK-= signal from NWC, producing a pair of spectral lines whose absolut= e phase is plotted on the DL0AO VLF-grabber.

B= est 73,
Markus (DF6NM)

-----Urspr=C3=BCng= liche Mitteilung-----
Von: DK7FC <selberdenken@posteo.de&= gt;
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>Verschickt: Di, 5. Feb. 2019 21:06
Betreff: Re= : LF: Naive WSPR15 question

Hell Markus, LF,

While walking to the tree today (which takes at about 30 minutes, you know) i had a thought/idea how the double shift keying for WSPR could be made:
Let's assume the frequency (audio) is known to +- 200 mHz maybe, let's say 1500 Hz. Then, would it be possible to use a SpecLab instance and measure the frequency arround 1500+-3 Hz which has the highest signal level? This way one could identify which of the 4 FSK frequencies is getting out of the WSPR software in that moment. Then, could we say, using the conditional actions, if frequency is higher than x and lower than y, that this is identified as '2' (1, 2, 3, 4). And then, if '2' is identified, use the signal generator and transmit on another frequency, which is then at twice the shift frequency from the center. All in all, just 4 lines in the conditional actions window (maybe adding a minimum signal level is required also to give a 'true').
So, determine the input frequency and generate another one using the internal signal generator?
This must be a fast running spectrogram / FFT, to be fast enough but it should be no problem. There must be no significant drift of the TX though but that could be possible too.
I expressed myselfe a bit difficult but i guess you know what i mean. But i try to make it a bot more clear (for me too ;-) ):
>From the file 'wsptones.txt' i got the information that
0=3D 1497.803 Hz
1=3D 1499.268 Hz
2=3D 1500.732 Hz
3=3D 1502.197 Hz
The difference between 2 steps is 1.465 Hz, obviously.
So, if the detected frequency from the input is higher than 1500 Hz and lower than 1501.465 Hz, then this is '2'. And then, the signal generator must produce a frequency of 1501.465 Hz instead, which is '2' with twice the offset from the center frequency. And so on...
If this output signal is upconvertred by 272 kHz and then sum is divided by 2, we should come out at the normal WSPR spacing at 137.5 kHz.
This would then also work without the slow WSPR tool and should also work for WSPR-15...

73, Stefan



Am 04.02.2019 22:08, schrieb Markus Vester:
Hi Stefan, Chris,

in principle yes=E2=80=A6 (R. Eriwan)

The old tools from 2012 are here 
http://df6nm.bplaced.net/wspr/slowWSPR.zip
But they used a homemade 16-bit-utility "waitraster" for timing, which is no longer supported by 64-bit Win-7 and Win 10. This can be replace= d by simple DOS commands, which has so far been implemented for rec= eiving WSPR-15
https://klubn= l.pl/rsgb_lf_group-archives/html/rsgb_lf_group/2018-11/msg00318.html but not yet for transmitting. So a little more work will be neede= d.

On the other hand, I'm asking myself why so many people stil= l insist on having dividers before their PA's. It only makes life mor= e difficult, and undermines coherent EbNaut or Opera signal transmissions. 

Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)

-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: DK7FC <selberd= enken@posteo.de>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: Mo, 4. Feb. 2019 21:11
Betreff: Re: LF: Naive WSPR15 question

...i checked some files from the slow_WSPR t= ool. I think i would be able
to solve the problem. Maybe Markus likes to confirm that this could work
(getting a factor 2 in the frequency shift)?
Chris, it would then be worth to try the normal tool first.

73, Stefan

Am 04.02.2019 20:25, schrieb DK7FC:
> Hello Chris,
>
> For a clever person it is very easy :-)
> It will depend on which way you want to generate WSPR.
> Here, for example, i have a Raspi which generates my WSPR (2) for MF.
> I modified the c source code so that the frequency is 4 times higher
> and the frequency shift is 4 times higher too. In my PA, probably like
> in yours, there is a frequency divider using CD4013 ICs which
> reproduce the desired frequency and frequency shift. Of course this
> can be done with a factor 2 too.
> For Windows solutions, there is DF6NMs tool for slow WSPR which works
> very reliable here, for WSPR-2 and WSPR-15. I'm sure this can be
> modified for twice the frequency shift but then you will need an
> upconverter to convert it to LF or MF...
>
> 73, Stefan
>
> Am 04.02.2019 13:21, schrieb Chris Wilson:
>>
>> Hello  LF,
>>
>>    A  naive  question  re  WSPR15&nb= sp; please?  Assuming the source code is
>>    available  how  hard  would  it&n= bsp; be  for  a  clever person to add X2
>>    functionality to it? Thanks.
>>
>

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