Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id wBAMgG3x008355 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 23:42:17 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1gWU4R-0006Ap-5L for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 22:30:35 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1gWU32-0006Ab-9k for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 22:29:08 +0000 Received: from proofpoint-cluster.metrocast.net ([65.175.128.136]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91_59-0488984) (envelope-from ) id 1gWU2x-00078B-O7 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 22:29:05 +0000 Received: from [192.168.2.7] (d-69-161-84-15.cpe.metrocast.net [69.161.84.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by apple.metrocast.net (8.14.7/8.14.4) with ESMTP id wBAMT0I6035710 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 22:29:01 GMT From: Rob Renoud Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 17:29:00 -0500 Message-Id: References: <770330704.948115.1544284657492.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <770330704.948115.1544284657492@mail.yahoo.com> <60B8BB0C-D5F2-4056-B50F-9BBAFBB0E812@md.metrocast.net> <1UQfUE2pMg.248Lgi6ej41@optiplex980-pc> <132032728.20181209151032@gmail.com> <1412C94E-308B-467C-B5E7-33E4D0497FEC@md.metrocast.net> <284e4101-fc3e-7ab1-3143-457d5954b177@n1bug.com> <5C0E8F6C.3080909@posteo.de> <51DE189E9D41493D961942F2CB2520A6@DELL4> In-Reply-To: <51DE189E9D41493D961942F2CB2520A6@DELL4> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Mailer: iPad Mail (16B92) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.21.6,1.0.8,0.0.0000 definitions=2018-12-10_08:2018-12-07,2018-12-10,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1810110000 definitions=main-1812100201 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Paul, Chris and EbNaut LF, Stefan makes a good argument for trying what you have for TX. The HP-3325A specs show a frequency accuracy of +- 5 EE-8 and stability (option 001) of +- 5 EE-6. The HP-3325A should work ok on 2200m wi [...] Content analysis details: (-0.7 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [65.175.128.136 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 MIME_QP_LONG_LINE RAW: Quoted-printable line longer than 76 chars X-Scan-Signature: 070d9ab39265047b7fb462cd62854f10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2097387C-91E9-4806-A51B-714B225CC9F5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: LF: LF and VLF EbNaut X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false --Apple-Mail-2097387C-91E9-4806-A51B-714B225CC9F5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul, Chris and EbNaut LF, Stefan makes a good argument for trying what you have for TX. The HP-3325A= specs show a frequency accuracy of +- 5 EE-8 and stability (option 001) of += - 5 EE-6. The HP-3325A should work ok on 2200m with a message duration of 2= 8 minutes or less. The 180 phase reversal is easily implemented using a DPDT relay with a 1:1 t= ransformer connected between the 3325 generator and the amp input. Drive th= e relay with the RS-232 RTS or CTS signal from the computer running ebnaut-t= x.exe found on http://abelian.org/ebnaut/ such that the relay shifts the pha= sing of the input to the transformer. Time and frequency are important on the decoding end. Try to get them as ac= curate as possible on the TX end. For 2200m a good starting message format is: Code: 8K19A Symbol Period: 3 CRC: 16 Characters: 5 Duration: 25:36.00 Repeat on the hour and half-hour Announce your beacon and give it a try. Lot=E2=80=99s of LF EbNaut listener= s to let you know if it=E2=80=99s working out... Comments and other suggestions are welcome. 73, Rob - K3RWR > On Dec 10, 2018, at 15:58, = wrote: >=20 > BPSK transitions cause key clicks with non linear transmitters / amplifier= s. As a practical matter ... with the high Q transmitting antennas in use ..= . and that it's unlikely you'll have next door neighbor interested in LF rec= eption ... it hasn't been a much of a problem. >=20 > Jay W1VD >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- From: "DK7FC" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 11:08 AM > Subject: Re: LF: LF and VLF EbNaut >=20 >=20 >> Hi Paul, >>=20 >> Am 09.12.2018 20:02, schrieb N1BUG: >>> The first thing people want >>> to know is what equipment is required for LF EbNaut and how much is >>> this going to cost? But answers are hard to come by. I could never >>> get an answer as to whether my HP 3325B with high stability option >>> was good enough. >> The problem is also on the other side. I don't know what a HP3325B is, or= , at least, i don't know the technical details since i don't own one. So i c= an give no advice how to use it for EbNaut transmitting >> Also there are different methods and each radio amateur is convinced abou= t his own design. >> Some methods may be easier to realise but less precise and less flexible.= So based on the skills and needs and parts available one will decide for a c= ertain design. >> Thus it is not so easy to write up 'the' way to go, there are many ways. = For example, there could be a 'how to EbNaut' including Linux components lik= e ebkey, which will be useless for someone who insists to avoid using Linux.= .. >> So if you're asking the group, then you will get different advice, from d= ifferent designs. And this will be confusing! So concentrate on the basics a= nd then choose your own design. >> I suggest to start in steps, don't plan to build the perfect system until= the season is over. >>=20 >> Basically all you need is an absolutely stable signal generator and a too= l for inverting the phase and managing the timing. This can be done with Win= dows and Linux. >> I think you are one of those who avoid using Linux. So then, you need Spe= cLab to generate the PSK. >> But step 1 is the stable signal. >> One method is to use an up-converter and SpecLab to generate EbNaut. Spec= Lab can generate a tone on e.g. 12500 Hz which is then mixed with 125 kHz, s= o there is an output at 137.5 kHz. This is how i do it here. >> I can tell you about other methods but this may lead to confusion already= . >> Maybe there is one step before step 1, call it step 0: You need to decide= , "YES i will now start to transmit EbNaut and i will buy to necessary compo= nents, learn what is necessary to understand, knowing it means effort!" >>=20 >> What kind of signal generator do you use now? >>=20 >>> When I asked about amplifiers for EbNaut I was told >>> linear is a must >> Do you remember who said that? >>> but now I find people are doing it with nonlinear >>> amplifiers >> Yes, a linear amplifier is not needed. It is BPSK, the output power is al= ways at 100%, which is good :-) >>=20 >> 73, Stefan >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-2097387C-91E9-4806-A51B-714B225CC9F5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pau= l, Chris and EbNaut LF,

Ste= fan makes a good argument for trying what you have for TX.   The HP-332= 5A specs show a frequency accuracy of +- 5 EE-8 and stability (option 001) o= f +- 5 EE-6.  The HP-3325A should work ok on 2200m with a message durat= ion of 28 minutes or less.

= The 180 phase reversal is easily implemented using a DPDT relay with a 1:1 t= ransformer connected between the 3325 generator and the amp input.  Dri= ve the relay with the RS-232 RTS or CTS signal from the computer running ebn= aut-tx.exe found on http://abeli= an.org/ebnaut/ such that the relay shifts the phasing of the input t= o the transformer.

Time and= frequency are important on the decoding end.  Try to get them as accur= ate as possible on the TX end.

For 2200m a good starting message format is:

<= /div>
Code:  8K19A
Symbol Period:=  3
CRC: 16
Characters: 5
Duration:  25:36.00
Repeat o= n the hour and half-hour

An= nounce your beacon and give it a try.  Lot=E2=80=99s of LF EbNaut liste= ners to let you know if it=E2=80=99s working out...
Comments and other suggestions are welcome.

73,
Rob - K3= RWR







On Dec 10, 2018, at 15:58, <jrusgrove@comcast.net> <jrusgrove@comcast.net> wrote:
<= br>
BPSK transitions c= ause key clicks with non linear transmitters / amplifiers. As a practical ma= tter ... with the high Q transmitting antennas in use ... and that it's unli= kely you'll have next door neighbor interested in LF reception ... it hasn't= been a much of a problem.

Jay W1VD<= br>



----- Original Message ----- From: "DK7FC" <selberdenken@posteo.de>
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>= ;
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 11:08 AM
S= ubject: Re: LF: LF and VLF EbNaut

Hi Paul,

Am 09.12.2018 20:02, schrieb N1BUG:
The first thing people want
to know is what equipment is required for LF EbNaut and how muc= h is
this going to cost? But answers are hard to come by. I= could never
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">get an answer as to whether my HP 3325B with h= igh stability option
was good enough.
The problem is also on the o= ther side. I don't know what a HP3325B is, or, at least, i don't know the te= chnical details since i don't own one. So i can give no advice how to use it= for EbNaut transmitting
Also there are different methods and each radio amateur is convinced abo= ut his own design.
So= me methods may be easier to realise but less precise and less flexible. So b= ased on the skills and needs and parts available one will decide for a certa= in design.
Thus it is= not so easy to write up 'the' way to go, there are many ways. For example, t= here could be a 'how to EbNaut' including Linux components like ebkey, which= will be useless for someone who insists to avoid using Linux...
<= /blockquote>
So if you're asking the group, t= hen you will get different advice, from different designs. And this will be c= onfusing! So concentrate on the basics and then choose your own design.
I suggest to start in ste= ps, don't plan to build the perfect system until the season is over.<= br>

Basically all you need is an absolutely stable s= ignal generator and a tool for inverting the phase and managing the timing. T= his can be done with Windows and Linux.
I think you are one of those who avoid using Linux. So th= en, you need SpecLab to generate the PSK.
But step 1 is the stable signal.
One method is to use an up-converter and Sp= ecLab to generate EbNaut. SpecLab can generate a tone on e.g. 12500 Hz which= is then mixed with 125 kHz, so there is an output at 137.5 kHz. This is how= i do it here.
I can t= ell you about other methods but this may lead to confusion already.
Maybe there is one step befor= e step 1, call it step 0: You need to decide, "YES i will now start to trans= mit EbNaut and i will buy to necessary components, learn what is necessary t= o understand, knowing it means effort!"

W= hat kind of signal generator do you use now?

When I asked about amplifiers for EbNaut I was= told
linear is a must
Do you remember who said that?
but now= I find people are doing it with nonlinear
amplifiers
Yes, a linea= r amplifier is not needed. It is BPSK, the output power is always at 100%, w= hich is good :-)

73, Stefan


= --Apple-Mail-2097387C-91E9-4806-A51B-714B225CC9F5--