To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org,
        "rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk" <rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk>
References: <1541712573053.31739@kuleuven.be>
 <0a5402bd-72b3-f9d7-0eeb-52897ff2a4d4@n1bug.com>
 <1541715141849.85703@kuleuven.be>
From: N1BUG <paul@n1bug.com>
Openpgp: preference=signencrypt
Autocrypt: addr=paul@n1bug.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata=
 xsFNBFqj1+0BEACggWlaH8oG/AiXSUG3CeQwZ1NrVEP4U7YsA9N9XEffjCDEsnTjHF2BJSgS
 2AicyomkmTGvghEHxrNFfFw07jwgJl97ae/VtNxpERPSE98mb4sPOMpJbwddioMazMDXwhKA
 wpg5fse+Ru8OrIT04KK919xL/pZuAP6pY6d2kVoizjJOfS71pHpiU6N6q3d9cl+w7d2LKhAE
 a3A1ZgDquPvn0WQlrN8K5D66xVrwTRhf1b5H4Ozl8/mMJzCeLG1ZIsDB3Pu2flwE81P8dCJA
 y1azwgY8pTEshVk4em/se9uRiZaDJr/qUSCf6hrV7AGa8g1jpAQDmdGpDNYMqyDqXen4jNi1
 8kNFVu1BMl2vjaI8skw/YPxIxlk/0ROHYhN6SuoDq1mt4AW4FryNa7k3A8dM8Bt7udBoTv0i
 uw4j9R/bmh2vl/QaHRUhDco0xn2z6geWvXkKqha++vzXDrEKUuqgB85SDZPs5W/phs9p0pz1
 xA61d1gn8FQJtpou5dQuAucqMo8eKQY5LUcbC+MH5pebH+M2wIuDCBmFPJHQDSPNepeaxJ4o
 G/HU1hrpzlgLiTTSKR8DcwtMQwYywnCTlm8MgL4jXuPzoGyKDMYyKIjC51G+3AAOJ6oXJAGR
 g0ehhCPtmnCGBaRlUIoUSpbgc4B+onqFKZmDiVm9CRNJhKIWrQARAQABzRZOMUJVRyA8cGF1
 bEBuMWJ1Zy5jb20+wsF9BBMBCAAnBQJao9ftAhsjBQkJZgGABQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWAgMB
 Ah4BAheAAAoJECRS/J8srRGjPBsQAIh+Haz9gqrQJ0OlMI5xmQ0A5nsVWcatWF/Ea4mucNjL
 4n4jmW+Z4Ukn3OVss55chWwrOVMRNWU2d2zRc92ZF7yJhLCoJFV870bZfxNYwdJ3GEBLIu6/
 anmQYX0oXFx8UBsx5K6egNqbeflPA7zrLiQkWrz6JApECdiA1rHDjyJdS7PDxBCG9cKgr/5b
 r4Rn/JlUl9pRPnxlSwHXsV+J6JtFYtWI69MWIVD7Y7OY1wO9+684uOnzeDANzeIwpBDcSm6p
 0D5u0b1hfPl2TD0ozVs6P0NvxkMbimXUhRR1QD0FvydyxmZTLAo+XZDGR8GqWYrYrauoRZ1h
 3m23+bNT2T4AuoFnWekpsZu+sxIf0LKPtEZCa51O65jZ810ROpXg9Lx71gEoQD+kbjO69+kq
 9r7wjytDq/jyhpOGrGYV6kgcQrISY86t9YvkA9Of2HDzZLih3GwecW6fkeV1AO5w4RteE9nL
 zIs2siGw2YqavF6LpTH71Db7cUYyZWn5hkKpwfpLNnPEuqgZACovpH1WUHx+KMqqIL4rMVCH
 GcSLqnH2KF4cEDb6OeTbwuLfpGlN+I3j24eQnB2uz5rDa7/IBjsClLl8S/wdDTP8IikBGixX
 06v3k06tk/OF4UsfJ0cY/ASGP5+kjT4ASMZAIikwVMpKi5A5be77vecKNYlJQ2a6zsFNBFqj
 1+0BEACaujZXo3F17v7QTnub4DjjYvm+nr8J0uU5pPc1UMEz9eWjmtmITm15fx1hPKNtVW+I
 VlT+DG+ShNnYmO2M4CFBoc7PwkAOc70aDxfHz20kotvj1HhXG7oBiqPkN3TK4C7qWV1HUEPA
 V960qPdhsoCqmtkvNwj39w1T0ZR5qwwaqDogs9UwBib7zseQ3OXHG32xYYCMcxM35hgXGkkz
 R7wFL4ZnAPOeFb8LnWtZcrGpwXdsYkXuCxm+A+u9KlFY+w3ZCzZt1F9Ie+/PSZnFIUtbXt2i
 mfc+VkRwOLz5BDAeWuDL09TN81+gbrR3kXlymDcCbuduO/yHOQK085qzE3LuImdy+JNb7oDf
 1C/hvpRvtB02vVy33rzIXT8644SJzFY/mw/W39/BgHKCoL1FrBbfgf0UoIFw5M752i7jQwmv
 j5yFfnVAXIPpCuusMwWMGVpZcGV7QxJxh0HBEhYgOo9v3zKwzNIPm9V/LA67u/rj4a/MlCE0
 mpd6IHaePE1vXDaboPZHZdhAziru5/Jd7KQI0k+HmM/HRANPRNDZ4UeBpgj9PzS6hDN5GHlZ
 fRUbI8JAg9wSaQtEn0bjyaR7lw0yngZTvvjT1Qqt5zGwm1IAall2STes5xK0aS7p+UJJMVbf
 ydZ5VOnocvUkwYxbiqoyuVtGxi4tpWW9CRstYXMkAwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJao9ftAhsM
 BQkJZgGAAAoJECRS/J8srRGjTDMP/18q7uhac/naxoFsOqhgXIlvaPgu6GX7s/QOh+bcSV1F
 y50lxo51P/C95H2TVME/CtCjk2xWQcNjWtXloMEsZpl7T3qWgJHvyZYkDtgh3M6UNY+zb08U
 K9E2+rR0AZ6zdMKio7Z1xA9BtbUpSZpvy2NgjoYVqo35NllUWMZJq0u+88PvE5WeCIqLipNI
 EZmUcG9UwolQbPkrRc42ReL+bFbuXGXDA5GbQ0RudXbugI8iUwaw3ftaKElIZtuHW0hw1VrU
 9tVHsxKyEoKgNNT1hr+dgRmvCHmA87Pi4R5cMV0ZkLVOYfPX1motedag7HmSNPi2PkYLts4z
 kyvPEJe2IvaPvjvK1ShRWWgje3uytrhfwyjUZcIuA76RWEfBbwT2Mbrn9O7LvrYtbTiTlsLo
 Zdk2uocuefBvPd2oI7mTn5eLy/VDy2JVnlb9vpZZhriXI4KtCcP6mYyuPxlxqj/30Kn1fU5b
 C4EpnKy6hW1CHM42DbwzT+ChjBpFbX9bfwT4qn6d42+T4mN5wkmfnBRHfcn8Wf1ezRSK3Ome
 Esa3ZDssj23CZHe11uec6Ln14qoB7JyRT9qM3Q99tzvAlmWFM3GrSsG94g4JponQjQWHmr8B
 eMYezwJHzSI7zWElJpzs/OuohstTYfYTy16FygUOEinc1K4ywjEklgRpXRtjKvqc
Message-ID: <fd9cc7ec-de45-bfca-b04e-1f954c8acc1b@n1bug.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 17:42:18 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101
 Thunderbird/60.2.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <1541715141849.85703@kuleuven.be>
Content-Language: en-US
Subject: Re: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: LF: JT9-2 and JT9-5 mode application
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org

Hi Rik,

I do not know the symbol lengths for JT9 slow and I do not know how
it compares to WSPR about frequency stability requirements.

>From my experiment last winter I can say that on LF WSPR15 often
gets across the pond when WSPR2 cannot. Clearly for WSPR mode, 15
minutes is no problem. Of course, maybe it's different for JT9. It
was very interesting to see the success of WSPR15. That was what got
me started thinking about slow versions of JT9 again.

I would be more concerned about stability of my equipment. The
homebrew stuff is probably OK but the rather expensive transceiver
used to drive the TX converters has a terrible TCXO. I never had
much incentive to work on trying to fix it, but if JT9 slow becomes
popular and if it needs better stability this will give me all the
incentive needed! :)

Yes of course JT9-86400 for Stefan! ;-)

73,
Paul N1BUG


On 11/8/18 5:12 PM, Rik Strobbe wrote:
> Hi Paul,
> 
> Adding even slower modes in the application is not difficult. But
> the slower we go the more stringent the frequency stability
> requirements are. For groundwave this is limited by the TX and RX
> stability, but for skywave propagation the mood changes of miss
> ionosphere could be nefast. 136 kHz might be better suited for
> JT-10 ot JT-30 than 472kHz. Stefan might be interested in
> JT-86400 (one message a day) for ULF ;-)
> 
> About JT9 coding: for this I am using another exe file of the
> WSJT-X suite. It seems to work fine, both for free and structured
> messages.
> 
> 73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T
> 
> 
> ________________________________________ Van:
> rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk <rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk>
> namens N1BUG paul@n1bug.com [rsgb_lf_group]
> <rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk> Verzonden: donderdag 8 november
> 2018 22:57 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org;
> rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk Onderwerp: [rsgb_lf_group] Re:
> LF: JT9-2 and JT9-5 mode application
> 
> Hello Rik,
> 
> I am very interested in this! Thank you very much for your work! 
> Tomorrow I will download the program.
> 
> I think we badly need these slow modes for the average LF
> operators (which is most of us at least on this side of the
> pond).
> 
> If the beta tests are successful, would it be possible to add
> JT9-10 and perhaps even JT9-30? For trans-Atlantic QSOs I think
> these could be very helpful.
> 
> How did you transmit JT9-2 signals for the QSOs? I can do that
> with my U3S but it can only send free text messages limited to
> 13 characters. It cannot send the packed messages normally used
> for QSOs.
> 
> 73, Paul N1BUG
> 
> 
> On 11/8/18 4:29 PM, Rik Strobbe wrote:
>> Dear all,
>> 
>> 
>> a few months ago there was a short discussion about a
>> "revival" of the slower JT9 modes such as JT9-2 and JT9-5.
>> 
>> These modes existed in early versions of WSJT-X, and had the 
>> advantage of a better S/N treshold level, at the cost of
>> longer transmissions. But unfortunately thse modes were
>> abandoned in later WSJT-X version.
>> 
>> As a result I raised this question in de WSJT-X developers
>> group, but there was no intention do implement these modes
>> again, as the focus was more on the (further) developing of
>> new(er) modes.
>> 
>> Having a closer look at the WSJT-X source code I noticed that
>> the JT9 decoding was done in a separate executable and with
>> some assistance of Joe, K1JT, I managed to write an application
>> that used this executable for decoding.
>> 
>> As this executable only decodes JT9 signals, not JT9-2 and
>> JT9-5, I had to use a lttle trick: speeding up a JT9-2
>> recording by a factor 2 results in a JT9 signal (at the double
>> frequency) that can be fed to the JT9 decoder. The same can be
>> done for JT9-5 (now speeding it up 5 times).
>> 
>> Some tests showed that this way a JT9-2 signal could be copied
>> at a 2.5dB better S/N treshold compared to JT9(-1). Not
>> completely the theoretical 3dB, but 2.5dB can often be the
>> difference between a failed or successful QSO. JT9-5 hasn't
>> been tested yet.
>> 
>> All this was done "manually" and it was rather time consuming.
>> 
>> So I decided to write an application that I named SlowJT9. It 
>> takes care of all the conversions and frequency shifts.
>> 
>> Besides JT9-2 and JT9-5 it also supports JT9(-1) for
>> convenience reasons.
>> 
>> Over the past weeks I tested the application in JT9 mode and 
>> after more than a dozen QSO's I feel that it now time to
>> release a beta version.
>> 
>> 
>> Whoever is interested can download the SlowJT9 installation
>> file at http://472khz.org/SlowJT9/SlowJT9_setup.exe.
>> 
>> 
>> For now only a Windows version of SlowJT9 is available. But as 
>> the used IDE has cross platform facilities it should be
>> possible to support other operating systems as well in the
>> future.
>> 
>> 
>> The aim of this beta version is: - To test if the application
>> is working properly. - To find out if JT9-2 and/or JT9-5 have
>> a sufficient S/N advantage over JT9(-1). - To find out if there
>> is sufficient interest in using these modes to continue the 
>> project. Therefore all comments, bug reports and suggestions
>> are most welcome via the Blacksheep RSGB LF Reflector, Yahoo
>> RSGB LF Group or directly at on7yd@strobbe.org.
>> 
>> 73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T