Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id wAAInNwd011667 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 19:49:31 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1gLYFo-0002YC-A4 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 18:45:08 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1gLYFk-0002Y3-Gj for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 18:45:04 +0000 Received: from mail-ed1-x52c.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::52c]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91_59-0488984) (envelope-from ) id 1gLYFg-0005cz-IH for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 18:45:03 +0000 Received: by mail-ed1-x52c.google.com with SMTP id w19-v6so4298778eds.1 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 10:44:59 -0800 (PST) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wuyW2eRyeQLNoM4YPlmNnzXcSqR5qHCyPJbqrhd78oM=; b=XYyYdoD5wLhFgA25O3DaV067BjVvKMCni1aunATe3yDGA+ukLsWXOna4BCPnMSxnr6 E25EYdshZqfzu4m1ZBeaYZu0NHM7X3dRiHtboS0agQoXIO/tzZTAXiuxMDphBEETuN+l hbBb4jy9C5Af0c0O+B9QXm2a3PL6+OdzVizQfenqIs+xlalh11sQMiNYMJyWF3exqz6Y 6dtoi0AV3YOwIPgJQPdyGh4eO55BWCK5eVBs1MltojiXun+PqWh+yhrcwPq0XWHrLKXK BHOfDxk6JIeDvCjL0fLhUhwTbERs6z5kKCi92zY+pVkYBneWIQBf+a1H0reYXLvFeCTK sKqQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wuyW2eRyeQLNoM4YPlmNnzXcSqR5qHCyPJbqrhd78oM=; b=n2Jm+zyzSKKGlX292zFQDEJlhP4JIR0W54i2hix+l88JJ6U9jdPoKF3pwZMVI+tfcD R4yWfDhJIEqsQ2/5GZeq+3M2XvuX+jjJc+IuPBd3IZjJqtVnbKZWaUMVbqIg3tlwm8k8 6tXw+hygQUi07zhsSlDDwH1h0ovCZdM/p5nZdbwiJaUz0XHed5Hwfq/EjIobIkMYJjjO YmAyq56UB/ctQ+hNjiWtCqx5hhYT784ji1Rio9z8fbJHP9LjglHiEn+S+uBP9NLTs7Es SuWNql9yz8EBwoNweA8L2UF+MK4Wo4Hv5Ea1CEkLIYIB9Wz0pNrvWbp3qK3LCaVt4AsQ Ujtw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKoUfhtNnOfQ+GOnY+HGT9TUbtLmwdEDTOcFfALN+vqn07DRMF4 CnhxWm6tmdLiKeBq2xSuulLMC+BSDFvoKgoeEiU5XQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5erK5qT3fqmTfZdcxco3ig5PIR6b18JBUNq+mpQDrJrSgtc0+SYQvfSOYKq76l6/7WvpKmTeM6aFlQlXEqJ1hU= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:d588:: with SMTP id r8-v6mr6985422edq.161.1541875499016; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 10:44:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1541712573053.31739@kuleuven.be> <0a5402bd-72b3-f9d7-0eeb-52897ff2a4d4@n1bug.com> <1541715141849.85703@kuleuven.be> <1541860496905.82068@kuleuven.be> In-Reply-To: <1541860496905.82068@kuleuven.be> From: Andy Talbot Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 18:44:47 +0000 Message-ID: To: LineOne Cc: rsgb_lf_group X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: The tone spacing of WSPR 15 is 0.183Hz which is one eighth of the WSPR-2 spacing. Similarly, the symbol length is 8 times that of WSPR2 at 5.46s With 162 symbols that gives a transmission period of 14.75 minutes [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [2a00:1450:4864:20:0:0:0:52c listed in] [list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (andy.g4jnt[at]gmail.com) 0.0 HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST BODY: HTML font color similar or identical to background 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 67b98dc82eec1a7201a2705e144698dc Subject: Re: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: LF: JT9-2 and JT9-5 mode application Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000068269a057a53dde8" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.8 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY,HTML_WEB_BUGS,PORN_4 autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false --00000000000068269a057a53dde8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The tone spacing of WSPR 15 is 0.183Hz which is one eighth of the WSPR-2 spacing. Similarly, the symbol length is 8 times that of WSPR2 at 5.46s With 162 symbols that gives a transmission period of 14.75 minutes Exact values are : Spacing =3D 12000 / (8192 * 8) Hz Symbol period 131072 / 12000 Andy www.g4jnt.com On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 at 14:40, Rik Strobbe wrote: > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8BHello Paul, > > > I cannot find the WSPR15 specs right away, but I assume that is is just a > "stretched" version of WSPR(2). > > In that case it would be 4-FSK at 0.195 Bd and a tone spacing of > 0.195 Hz (0.8 Hz bandwidth). > > JT9-15 would be 9-FSK at 0.116 Bd and a tone spacing of 0.116 Hz (1 Hz > bandwidth). > > Due to the smaller tone spacing I would assume that JT9-15 will be more > vulnerable to frequency instabilities than WSPR15. > > With the JT9 specs, JT9-10 would have 0.174 Hz tone spacing, close to th= e > 0.195 Hz of WSPR15. > > But before implementing this it would be interesting to do some TA tests > ising JT9-2 (where the S/N should be close to WSPR) and JT9-5 (4 dB bette= r > than WSPR ?) > > > 73, Rik ON7YD > > > > ------------------------------ > *Van:* rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk > namens N1BUG paul@n1bug.com [rsgb_lf_group] < > rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk> > *Verzonden:* donderdag 8 november 2018 23:42 > *Aan:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk > *Onderwerp:* Re: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: LF: JT9-2 and JT9-5 mode application > > > > Hi Rik, > > I do not know the symbol lengths for JT9 slow and I do not know how > it compares to WSPR about frequency stability requirements. > > From my experiment last winter I can say that on LF WSPR15 often > gets across the pond when WSPR2 cannot. Clearly for WSPR mode, 15 > minutes is no problem. Of course, maybe it's different for JT9. It > was very interesting to see the success of WSPR15. That was what got > me started thinking about slow versions of JT9 again. > > I would be more concerned about stability of my equipment. The > homebrew stuff is probably OK but the rather expensive transceiver > used to drive the TX converters has a terrible TCXO. I never had > much incentive to work on trying to fix it, but if JT9 slow becomes > popular and if it needs better stability this will give me all the > incentive needed! :) > > Yes of course JT9-86400 for Stefan! ;-) > > 73, > Paul N1BUG > > On 11/8/18 5:12 PM, Rik Strobbe wrote: > > Hi Paul, > > > > Adding even slower modes in the application is not difficult. But > > the slower we go the more stringent the frequency stability > > requirements are. For groundwave this is limited by the TX and RX > > stability, but for skywave propagation the mood changes of miss > > ionosphere could be nefast. 136 kHz might be better suited for > > JT-10 ot JT-30 than 472kHz. Stefan might be interested in > > JT-86400 (one message a day) for ULF ;-) > > > > About JT9 coding: for this I am using another exe file of the > > WSJT-X suite. It seems to work fine, both for free and structured > > messages. > > > > 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T > > > > > > ________________________________________ Van: > > rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk > > namens N1BUG paul@n1bug.com [rsgb_lf_group] > > Verzonden: donderdag 8 november > > 2018 22:57 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; > > rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk Onderwerp: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: > > LF: JT9-2 and JT9-5 mode application > > > > Hello Rik, > > > > I am very interested in this! Thank you very much for your work! > > Tomorrow I will download the program. > > > > I think we badly need these slow modes for the average LF > > operators (which is most of us at least on this side of the > > pond). > > > > If the beta tests are successful, would it be possible to add > > JT9-10 and perhaps even JT9-30? For trans-Atlantic QSOs I think > > these could be very helpful. > > > > How did you transmit JT9-2 signals for the QSOs? I can do that > > with my U3S but it can only send free text messages limited to > > 13 characters. It cannot send the packed messages normally used > > for QSOs. > > > > 73, Paul N1BUG > > > > > > On 11/8/18 4:29 PM, Rik Strobbe wrote: > >> Dear all, > >> > >> > >> a few months ago there was a short discussion about a > >> "revival" of the slower JT9 modes such as JT9-2 and JT9-5. > >> > >> These modes existed in early versions of WSJT-X, and had the > >> advantage of a better S/N treshold level, at the cost of > >> longer transmissions. But unfortunately thse modes were > >> abandoned in later WSJT-X version. > >> > >> As a result I raised this question in de WSJT-X developers > >> group, but there was no intention do implement these modes > >> again, as the focus was more on the (further) developing of > >> new(er) modes. > >> > >> Having a closer look at the WSJT-X source code I noticed that > >> the JT9 decoding was done in a separate executable and with > >> some assistance of Joe, K1JT, I managed to write an application > >> that used this executable for decoding. > >> > >> As this executable only decodes JT9 signals, not JT9-2 and > >> JT9-5, I had to use a lttle trick: speeding up a JT9-2 > >> recording by a factor 2 results in a JT9 signal (at the double > >> frequency) that can be fed to the JT9 decoder. The same can be > >> done for JT9-5 (now speeding it up 5 times). > >> > >> Some tests showed that this way a JT9-2 signal could be copied > >> at a 2.5dB better S/N treshold compared to JT9(-1). Not > >> completely the theoretical 3dB, but 2.5dB can often be the > >> difference between a failed or successful QSO. JT9-5 hasn't > >> been tested yet. > >> > >> All this was done "manually" and it was rather time consuming. > >> > >> So I decided to write an application that I named SlowJT9. It > >> takes care of all the conversions and frequency shifts. > >> > >> Besides JT9-2 and JT9-5 it also supports JT9(-1) for > >> convenience reasons. > >> > >> Over the past weeks I tested the application in JT9 mode and > >> after more than a dozen QSO's I feel that it now time to > >> release a beta version. > >> > >> > >> Whoever is interested can download the SlowJT9 installation > >> file at http://472khz.org/SlowJT9/SlowJT9_setup.exe. > >> > >> > >> For now only a Windows version of SlowJT9 is available. But as > >> the used IDE has cross platform facilities it should be > >> possible to support other operating systems as well in the > >> future. > >> > >> > >> The aim of this beta version is: - To test if the application > >> is working properly. - To find out if JT9-2 and/or JT9-5 have > >> a sufficient S/N advantage over JT9(-1). - To find out if there > >> is sufficient interest in using these modes to continue the > >> project. Therefore all comments, bug reports and suggestions > >> are most welcome via the Blacksheep RSGB LF Reflector, Yahoo > >> RSGB LF Group or directly at on7yd@strobbe.org. > >> > >> 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T > __._,_.___ > ------------------------------ > Posted by: N1BUG > ------------------------------ > Reply via web post > > =E2=80=A2 Reply to sender > > =E2=80=A2 Reply to group > > =E2=80=A2 Start a new topic > > =E2=80=A2 Messages in this topic > > (4) > Visit Your Group > > > - New Members > > 1 > > [image: Yahoo! Groups] > > =E2=80=A2 Privacy =E2=80=A2 > Unsubscribe > =E2= =80=A2 Terms > of Use > > SPONSORED LINKS > document.write('[image: AOL Ad] > '); > > document.write('[image: AOL Ad] > '); > > document.write('[image: AOL Ad] > '); > > . > > __,_._,___ > --00000000000068269a057a53dde8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The tone spacing of WSPR 15 is 0.183Hz which is = one eighth of the WSPR-2 spacing.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Similarly, the symbol length= is 8 times that of WSPR2 at 5.46s
With 162 symbols that gi= ves a transmission period of 14.75 minutes

Exact values are :
=C2=A0Spacing =3D 12000 / (8192 * 8) H= z=C2=A0
=C2=A0Symbol period 131072 / 12000
=

On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 at 14:40, Rik Strobbe <rik.strobbe@kuleuven.be> wrote:

=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8BHello Paul,


I cannot find the WSPR15 specs right away, but I assume that is is just = a "stretched" version of WSPR(2).

In that case it would=C2=A0be 4-FSK at 0.195 Bd and a tone spacing of 0.= 195=C2=A0Hz=C2=A0(0.8 Hz=C2=A0bandwidth).

JT9-15 would be 9-FSK at 0.116 Bd and a tone spacing of 0.116 Hz (1 Hz b= andwidth).

Due to the smaller tone spacing I would assume that JT9-15 will be more = vulnerable to frequency instabilities than WSPR15.

With=C2=A0the JT9 specs, JT9-10 would have 0.174 Hz tone spacing, close = to=C2=A0 the 0.195 Hz of WSPR15.

But before implementing this it would be interesting to do some TA tests= ising JT9-2 (where the S/N should be close to WSPR) and JT9-5 (4 dB better= than WSPR ?)


73, Rik=C2=A0 ON7YD



Van: <= a href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">rsgb_lf= _group@yahoogroups.co.uk <rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk> namens N= 1BUG paul@n1bug.com= [rsgb_lf_group] <rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk>
Verzonden: donderdag 8 november 2018 23:42
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk
Onderwerp: Re: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: LF: JT9-2 and JT9-5 mode applicat= ion
=C2=A0
=C2=A0

Hi Rik,

I do not know the symbol lengths for JT9 slow and I do not know how
it compares to WSPR about frequency stability requirements.

>From my experiment last winter I can say that on LF WSPR15 often
gets across the pond when WSPR2 cannot. Clearly for WSPR mode, 15
minutes is no problem. Of course, maybe it's different for JT9. It
was very interesting to see the success of WSPR15. That was what got
me started thinking about slow versions of JT9 again.

I would be more concerned about stability of my equipment. The
homebrew stuff is probably OK but the rather expensive transceiver
used to drive the TX converters has a terrible TCXO. I never had
much incentive to work on trying to fix it, but if JT9 slow becomes
popular and if it needs better stability this will give me all the
incentive needed! :)

Yes of course JT9-86400 for Stefan! ;-)

73,
Paul N1BUG

On 11/8/18 5:12 PM, Rik Strobbe wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Adding even slower modes in the application is not difficult. But
> the slower we go the more stringent the frequency stability
> requirements are. For groundwave this is limited by the TX and RX
> stability, but for skywave propagation the mood changes of miss
> ionosphere could be nefast. 136 kHz might be better suited for
> JT-10 ot JT-30 than 472kHz. Stefan might be interested in
> JT-86400 (one message a day) for ULF ;-)
>
> About JT9 coding: for this I am using another exe file of the
> WSJT-X suite. It seems to work fine, both for free and structured
> messages.
>
> 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T
>
>
> ________________________________________ Van:
> r= sgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk <rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk> > namens N1BUG paul@= n1bug.com [rsgb_lf_group]
> <rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk> Verzonden: donderdag 8 november<= br> > 2018 22:57 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org;
> r= sgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk Onderwerp: [rsgb_lf_group] Re:
> LF: JT9-2 and JT9-5 mode application
>
> Hello Rik,
>
> I am very interested in this! Thank you very much for your work!
> Tomorrow I will download the program.
>
> I think we badly need these slow modes for the average LF
> operators (which is most of us at least on this side of the
> pond).
>
> If the beta tests are successful, would it be possible to add
> JT9-10 and perhaps even JT9-30? For trans-Atlantic QSOs I think
> these could be very helpful.
>
> How did you transmit JT9-2 signals for the QSOs? I can do that
> with my U3S but it can only send free text messages limited to
> 13 characters. It cannot send the packed messages normally used
> for QSOs.
>
> 73, Paul N1BUG
>
>
> On 11/8/18 4:29 PM, Rik Strobbe wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>>
>> a few months ago there was a short discussion about a
>> "revival" of the slower JT9 modes such as JT9-2 and JT9-= 5.
>>
>> These modes existed in early versions of WSJT-X, and had the
>> advantage of a better S/N treshold level, at the cost of
>> longer transmissions. But unfortunately thse modes were
>> abandoned in later WSJT-X version.
>>
>> As a result I raised this question in de WSJT-X developers
>> group, but there was no intention do implement these modes
>> again, as the focus was more on the (further) developing of
>> new(er) modes.
>>
>> Having a closer look at the WSJT-X source code I noticed that
>> the JT9 decoding was done in a separate executable and with
>> some assistance of Joe, K1JT, I managed to write an application >> that used this executable for decoding.
>>
>> As this executable only decodes JT9 signals, not JT9-2 and
>> JT9-5, I had to use a lttle trick: speeding up a JT9-2
>> recording by a factor 2 results in a JT9 signal (at the double
>> frequency) that can be fed to the JT9 decoder. The same can be
>> done for JT9-5 (now speeding it up 5 times).
>>
>> Some tests showed that this way a JT9-2 signal could be copied
>> at a 2.5dB better S/N treshold compared to JT9(-1). Not
>> completely the theoretical 3dB, but 2.5dB can often be the
>> difference between a failed or successful QSO. JT9-5 hasn't >> been tested yet.
>>
>> All this was done "manually" and it was rather time cons= uming.
>>
>> So I decided to write an application that I named SlowJT9. It
>> takes care of all the conversions and frequency shifts.
>>
>> Besides JT9-2 and JT9-5 it also supports JT9(-1) for
>> convenience reasons.
>>
>> Over the past weeks I tested the application in JT9 mode and
>> after more than a dozen QSO's I feel that it now time to
>> release a beta version.
>>
>>
>> Whoever is interested can download the SlowJT9 installation
>> file at http://472khz.org/SlowJT9/SlowJT9_setup.exe.
>>
>>
>> For now only a Windows version of SlowJT9 is available. But as >> the used IDE has cross platform facilities it should be
>> possible to support other operating systems as well in the
>> future.
>>
>>
>> The aim of this beta version is: - To test if the application
>> is working properly. - To find out if JT9-2 and/or JT9-5 have
>> a sufficient S/N advantage over JT9(-1). - To find out if there >> is sufficient interest in using these modes to continue the
>> project. Therefore all comments, bug reports and suggestions
>> are most welcome via the Blacksheep RSGB LF Reflector, Yahoo
>> RSGB LF Group or directly at on7yd@strobbe.org.
>>
>> 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T

__._,_.___
Posted by: N1BUG <pa= ul@n1bug.com>
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