Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id wAREDo9K011159 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 15:14:01 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1gRe1r-0003jq-NR for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:07:55 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1gRe1q-0003jh-Tf for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:07:54 +0000 Received: from sonic302-3.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.135.42]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.91_59-0488984) (envelope-from ) id 1gRe1o-0004m8-VS for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:07:53 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1543327670; bh=7kYUxkICVvGrmXzRq12mXMYoN2bAS2QP8CPi/G0rF5g=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:From:Subject; b=ZCl+Mjvlq0spM7CBhAAr1uU1TEa/Of+TdvQnugxWM8xWKA/W8nfjQZUMId5H2sEKUd988pQcpU9Yrgx0LkouyraBAfjNow2B97qMuDmsNg2e/ljKlQEaxcOaCKWrj/jScFRk/4w0ynZx8qtEW1YpKB/w2kDOfOEx4tomKazBdr8y4ZbdonSdHEtcoGyTyQg7SleIvX5ny0hr46Zdwuru3DB59iSS6GCWBmoyjpv0xF2tGCazKq1sXsF/o39XC1RCdEZfuXg35c8UYTp9YFJkpqANpz0Sznj8A6W54MQOEHmnslvOuEUiKAa4WV8XYaodX0pnMu8+ZZtDERPIPCsVEQ== X-YMail-OSG: 5Lpx7HcVM1m0CH__vNURQCt67fftQdL_aN254MtkiyCogU.JexXeY35S3eXPthB ETtCqeQ7BJsiQY4QhBdtXYCgW8TXDWC2cW6xP4V.T9By5ILk0pUUXn1WQhj6C_MIZcFFBLb8WckY qocvhPC5vyy3nWEBMKcU7xkrsxEOgkVXon3hfnYDeS7KZabGAz3QKlQ51AOYoRC_FISFMLh0iNVz NnE3qmMIZU_BA7E8diEesLgfBaQA_5YD7SD8ODbrWkCr91I6IeHsFzv07A6EzZF7o1JSUFEiunvr frhVgxJzb.B53mc4ZStjcDbztqlfL5UN13cHs2wXobR3Imbk.Jml5H7y4fd7X1IZ2nlgHrd.wIrA 6sxCR8aqdWfY.JGeRKuZU._K.ttbNIufGTjfPXDFu1I55Ii.K.DUPZziEPlxytIIKZGRyyda8bGp kSFR.qMtlxrMYhex7pwLjPjBhjNzFWZYb3TNRveL9on2k1PYW54zli6_eSv0yRHgbE1RQvOBPjUR up5aT2W6v1nwd9QAWWUgGCUNAud0hxx.LZkPHDXNKSNOa55H8wbp6.XZ26Y32lSe5i_hjEhG8PQk _yzaDaoTYA4EUUBjarxjXIZMEC8zLwgcfiMGWXjIWG1kSSVCJZIFWjffLvWcX3C_bSu4YRC03dEo TIyj18PaqLdD_4TKWgpsmr90I14eVM1aIKbv3IgQuvEdL063EedeXzThpjxAzyiq5ZIXmy.Veps_ RMAi.aZF6wyJyVHv0GScKentNyw1Zk0NUSBpg__AfK5uiv2du7z4svEIUldfpxyjpiZt9jI_8Ev_ ipSu.zqYhj1L7EEu.0wN_RPbu93KnXyykjMiqkN6tr5gIfiG_gSne6_f_aAtGpIPUICPhqv6PjIR YV55WKIcYtaMwSxNk83DWTAMg4Gg0xl6KqvvIOD45mFNzhmEepFuV_4vRHdMwdfEfu0xvdKdimP1 RtL8NZPVyBrWiqjU6Hl5wxOi2KKxNwquUDazTIkYkc.j4EYqKXIO61g-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:07:50 +0000 Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:07:45 +0000 (UTC) From: Markus Vester To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: <625377190.6890444.1543327665038@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <625377190.6890444.1543327665038.ref@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12729 aolwebmail Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; Trident/7.0; rv:11.0) like Gecko X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Paul, apparent asymmetrical thermal time constants would be plausible if you are just barely reaching a threshold temperature, above which the effect occurs. Best 73, Markus Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [74.6.135.42 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (markusvester[at]aol.com) 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 5fc8987c5011a8849fb47b0998281191 Subject: Re: LF: No 2200m TX tonight Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_6890443_1379463155.1543327665037" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.7 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_MUA_MOZILLA, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false ------=_Part_6890443_1379463155.1543327665037 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_6890442_1722241159.1543327665036" ------=_Part_6890442_1722241159.1543327665036 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul, apparent asymmetrical=C2=A0thermal time constants would be plausible if=C2= =A0you are just barely reaching a threshold=C2=A0temperature,=C2=A0above wh= ich the effect occurs.=20 Best 73, Markus -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung----- Von: N1BUG An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Di, 27. Nov. 2018 13:51 Betreff: Re: LF: No 2200m TX tonight Hi Stefan, > That is very strange! Thermal capacity and time constants should be the= =20 > same when heating up or down. Well... yes, that seems to make sense. :-) > How much antenna current do you get at 100 W RF power? It depends on the time of year and temperature, since the loss resistance is dependent on those factors. On the last day of testing it should have been about 1.1A. I do not normally keep an RF ammeter in the antenna lead, but I think I need to put one out there again to check whether antenna current increases when I see current on the feed line increasing. > If you say you have a scopematch, i assume you mean that you are the=20 > curves of voltage and current on an oscilloscope, right? Yes, I always watch the curves of voltage and current on the feed line (measured at the transmitter end of the line). > I have thoughts=20 > about EMI into the power supply or exciter but this is unlikely since=20 > you have a decoupling xfmr at the antenna feed point. It's quite possible, but how could EMI into the power supply or exciter result in feed line current increasing while at the same time voltage is decreasing? I could understand a power change, but this isn't that, it seems to be a change in antenna / ground system resistance. > Is your antenna earth separated from the mains earth? If not, try to=20 > separate it and see if the effect is still there, apart from the lower=20 > antenna current. Actually it is not. I do have the isolating transformer at the antenna base, but I do not think that accomplishes much at my station! The 'T' antenna for LF is suspended between two metal towers. Each tower is grounded, and around one of the towers is a quite extensive system of wire radials because that tower is shunt fed on 1.8 MHz. The lightning ground for both towers plus the radial system are all tied together and this is the ground for the LF antenna. The trouble is coax cables going to other antennas on both towers are connected to equipment in the shack, which of course is connected to the mains earth. So we cannot say the LF antenna earth and mains earth are separated. In fact, we can say it may be more like a big loop!!! I can try to disconnect all of those cables temporarily but I am quite certain this will shift resonance of the LF antenna. It will take some time to get it resonated for another test. It is quite a lot of work to change taps on the coil, as I must completely disconnect it and remove it from the large plastic drum to be able to reach the taps. Not the ideal setup at all, but it is what I could do. I wonder if I should try to temporarily connect the coax outer to the antenna ground at the base of the LF antenna? At least that would provide a direct return path. > And maybe it is worth to control the DC supply voltage of the exciter=20 > and PA during the effect starts. > If the PA runs at 12V, use a battery and a floating signal generator. > These are my next thoughts. This happens with two very different exciters. One is the U3S. The other is a HF transceiver through a home made down converter. The affect I am seeing is the same using either exciter. Make that three exciters. Before it died, I could use my HP 3325B as an exciter. I saw exactly the same thing when testing with that. I can easily control voltage to the PA but not so easily to any exciter. The PA will run at 12V but does not produce enough output at that voltage to see the problem. Below a certain RF power threshold there is no problem! 73, Paul ------=_Part_6890442_1722241159.1543327665036 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Paul,

apparent asymmetrical thermal time con= stants would be plausible if you are just barely reaching a threshold&= nbsp;temperature, above which the effect occurs.

Best 73,
M= arkus

-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: N1BUG <paul= @n1bug.com>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>Verschickt: Di, 27. Nov. 2018 13:51
Betreff: Re: LF: No 2200m TX tonigh= t

Hi Stefan,

> That is very strange! Thermal capacity and time constants should = be the
> same when heating up or down.

Well... yes, that seems to make sense. :-)

> How much antenna current do you get at 10= 0 W RF power?

It depends on the time o= f year and temperature, since the loss
resistance is depe= ndent on those factors. On the last day of testing
it sho= uld have been about 1.1A.

I do not nor= mally keep an RF ammeter in the antenna lead, but I
think= I need to put one out there again to check whether antenna
current increases when I see current on the feed line increasing.

> If you say you have a scopematch, i ass= ume you mean that you are the
> curves of voltage and= current on an oscilloscope, right?

Ye= s, I always watch the curves of voltage and current on the feed
line (measured at the transmitter end of the line).

> I have thoughts
> about EMI= into the power supply or exciter but this is unlikely since
> you have a decoupling xfmr at the antenna feed point.

It's quite possible, but how could EMI into the p= ower supply or
exciter result in feed line current increa= sing while at the same
time voltage is decreasing? I coul= d understand a power change, but
this isn't that, it seem= s to be a change in antenna / ground system
resistance.
> Is your antenna earth separated fr= om the mains earth? If not, try to
> separate it and = see if the effect is still there, apart from the lower
&= gt; antenna current.

Actually it is no= t. I do have the isolating transformer at the
antenna bas= e, but I do not think that accomplishes much at my station!

The 'T' antenna for LF is suspended between two metal= towers. Each
tower is grounded, and around one of the to= wers is a quite extensive
system of wire radials because = that tower is shunt fed on 1.8 MHz.
The lightning ground = for both towers plus the radial system are all
tied toget= her and this is the ground for the LF antenna.

The trouble is coax cables going to other antennas on both towers=
are connected to equipment in the shack, which of course= is
connected to the mains earth. So we cannot say the LF= antenna earth
and mains earth are separated. In fact, we= can say it may be more
like a big loop!!!

I can try to disconnect all of those cables temporar= ily but I am
quite certain this will shift resonance of t= he LF antenna. It will
take some time to get it resonated= for another test. It is quite a
lot of work to change ta= ps on the coil, as I must completely
disconnect it and re= move it from the large plastic drum to be able
to reach t= he taps. Not the ideal setup at all, but it is what I
cou= ld do.

I wonder if I should try to tem= porarily connect the coax outer to
the antenna ground at = the base of the LF antenna? At least that
would provide a= direct return path.

> And maybe it= is worth to control the DC supply voltage of the exciter
> and PA during the effect starts.
> If the PA ru= ns at 12V, use a battery and a floating signal generator.
> These are my next thoughts.

This= happens with two very different exciters. One is the U3S. The
other is a HF transceiver through a home made down converter. The
affect I am seeing is the same using either exciter.

Make that three exciters. Before it died, I c= ould use my HP 3325B as
an exciter. I saw exactly the sam= e thing when testing with that.

I can = easily control voltage to the PA but not so easily to any exciter.

The PA will run at 12V but does not produce en= ough output at that
voltage to see the problem. Below a c= ertain RF power threshold there
is no problem!


= 73,
Paul


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