To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org,
        "rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk" <rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk>
References: <1541712573053.31739@kuleuven.be>
 <0a5402bd-72b3-f9d7-0eeb-52897ff2a4d4@n1bug.com>
 <1541715141849.85703@kuleuven.be>
 <fd9cc7ec-de45-bfca-b04e-1f954c8acc1b@n1bug.com>
 <1541860496905.82068@kuleuven.be>
From: N1BUG <paul@n1bug.com>
Openpgp: preference=signencrypt
Autocrypt: addr=paul@n1bug.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata=
 xsFNBFqj1+0BEACggWlaH8oG/AiXSUG3CeQwZ1NrVEP4U7YsA9N9XEffjCDEsnTjHF2BJSgS
 2AicyomkmTGvghEHxrNFfFw07jwgJl97ae/VtNxpERPSE98mb4sPOMpJbwddioMazMDXwhKA
 wpg5fse+Ru8OrIT04KK919xL/pZuAP6pY6d2kVoizjJOfS71pHpiU6N6q3d9cl+w7d2LKhAE
 a3A1ZgDquPvn0WQlrN8K5D66xVrwTRhf1b5H4Ozl8/mMJzCeLG1ZIsDB3Pu2flwE81P8dCJA
 y1azwgY8pTEshVk4em/se9uRiZaDJr/qUSCf6hrV7AGa8g1jpAQDmdGpDNYMqyDqXen4jNi1
 8kNFVu1BMl2vjaI8skw/YPxIxlk/0ROHYhN6SuoDq1mt4AW4FryNa7k3A8dM8Bt7udBoTv0i
 uw4j9R/bmh2vl/QaHRUhDco0xn2z6geWvXkKqha++vzXDrEKUuqgB85SDZPs5W/phs9p0pz1
 xA61d1gn8FQJtpou5dQuAucqMo8eKQY5LUcbC+MH5pebH+M2wIuDCBmFPJHQDSPNepeaxJ4o
 G/HU1hrpzlgLiTTSKR8DcwtMQwYywnCTlm8MgL4jXuPzoGyKDMYyKIjC51G+3AAOJ6oXJAGR
 g0ehhCPtmnCGBaRlUIoUSpbgc4B+onqFKZmDiVm9CRNJhKIWrQARAQABzRZOMUJVRyA8cGF1
 bEBuMWJ1Zy5jb20+wsF9BBMBCAAnBQJao9ftAhsjBQkJZgGABQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWAgMB
 Ah4BAheAAAoJECRS/J8srRGjPBsQAIh+Haz9gqrQJ0OlMI5xmQ0A5nsVWcatWF/Ea4mucNjL
 4n4jmW+Z4Ukn3OVss55chWwrOVMRNWU2d2zRc92ZF7yJhLCoJFV870bZfxNYwdJ3GEBLIu6/
 anmQYX0oXFx8UBsx5K6egNqbeflPA7zrLiQkWrz6JApECdiA1rHDjyJdS7PDxBCG9cKgr/5b
 r4Rn/JlUl9pRPnxlSwHXsV+J6JtFYtWI69MWIVD7Y7OY1wO9+684uOnzeDANzeIwpBDcSm6p
 0D5u0b1hfPl2TD0ozVs6P0NvxkMbimXUhRR1QD0FvydyxmZTLAo+XZDGR8GqWYrYrauoRZ1h
 3m23+bNT2T4AuoFnWekpsZu+sxIf0LKPtEZCa51O65jZ810ROpXg9Lx71gEoQD+kbjO69+kq
 9r7wjytDq/jyhpOGrGYV6kgcQrISY86t9YvkA9Of2HDzZLih3GwecW6fkeV1AO5w4RteE9nL
 zIs2siGw2YqavF6LpTH71Db7cUYyZWn5hkKpwfpLNnPEuqgZACovpH1WUHx+KMqqIL4rMVCH
 GcSLqnH2KF4cEDb6OeTbwuLfpGlN+I3j24eQnB2uz5rDa7/IBjsClLl8S/wdDTP8IikBGixX
 06v3k06tk/OF4UsfJ0cY/ASGP5+kjT4ASMZAIikwVMpKi5A5be77vecKNYlJQ2a6zsFNBFqj
 1+0BEACaujZXo3F17v7QTnub4DjjYvm+nr8J0uU5pPc1UMEz9eWjmtmITm15fx1hPKNtVW+I
 VlT+DG+ShNnYmO2M4CFBoc7PwkAOc70aDxfHz20kotvj1HhXG7oBiqPkN3TK4C7qWV1HUEPA
 V960qPdhsoCqmtkvNwj39w1T0ZR5qwwaqDogs9UwBib7zseQ3OXHG32xYYCMcxM35hgXGkkz
 R7wFL4ZnAPOeFb8LnWtZcrGpwXdsYkXuCxm+A+u9KlFY+w3ZCzZt1F9Ie+/PSZnFIUtbXt2i
 mfc+VkRwOLz5BDAeWuDL09TN81+gbrR3kXlymDcCbuduO/yHOQK085qzE3LuImdy+JNb7oDf
 1C/hvpRvtB02vVy33rzIXT8644SJzFY/mw/W39/BgHKCoL1FrBbfgf0UoIFw5M752i7jQwmv
 j5yFfnVAXIPpCuusMwWMGVpZcGV7QxJxh0HBEhYgOo9v3zKwzNIPm9V/LA67u/rj4a/MlCE0
 mpd6IHaePE1vXDaboPZHZdhAziru5/Jd7KQI0k+HmM/HRANPRNDZ4UeBpgj9PzS6hDN5GHlZ
 fRUbI8JAg9wSaQtEn0bjyaR7lw0yngZTvvjT1Qqt5zGwm1IAall2STes5xK0aS7p+UJJMVbf
 ydZ5VOnocvUkwYxbiqoyuVtGxi4tpWW9CRstYXMkAwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJao9ftAhsM
 BQkJZgGAAAoJECRS/J8srRGjTDMP/18q7uhac/naxoFsOqhgXIlvaPgu6GX7s/QOh+bcSV1F
 y50lxo51P/C95H2TVME/CtCjk2xWQcNjWtXloMEsZpl7T3qWgJHvyZYkDtgh3M6UNY+zb08U
 K9E2+rR0AZ6zdMKio7Z1xA9BtbUpSZpvy2NgjoYVqo35NllUWMZJq0u+88PvE5WeCIqLipNI
 EZmUcG9UwolQbPkrRc42ReL+bFbuXGXDA5GbQ0RudXbugI8iUwaw3ftaKElIZtuHW0hw1VrU
 9tVHsxKyEoKgNNT1hr+dgRmvCHmA87Pi4R5cMV0ZkLVOYfPX1motedag7HmSNPi2PkYLts4z
 kyvPEJe2IvaPvjvK1ShRWWgje3uytrhfwyjUZcIuA76RWEfBbwT2Mbrn9O7LvrYtbTiTlsLo
 Zdk2uocuefBvPd2oI7mTn5eLy/VDy2JVnlb9vpZZhriXI4KtCcP6mYyuPxlxqj/30Kn1fU5b
 C4EpnKy6hW1CHM42DbwzT+ChjBpFbX9bfwT4qn6d42+T4mN5wkmfnBRHfcn8Wf1ezRSK3Ome
 Esa3ZDssj23CZHe11uec6Ln14qoB7JyRT9qM3Q99tzvAlmWFM3GrSsG94g4JponQjQWHmr8B
 eMYezwJHzSI7zWElJpzs/OuohstTYfYTy16FygUOEinc1K4ywjEklgRpXRtjKvqc
Message-ID: <20a336f1-2746-73f9-11b4-845b3771340e@n1bug.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 13:26:43 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101
 Thunderbird/60.2.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <1541860496905.82068@kuleuven.be>
Content-Language: en-US
Subject: Re: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: LF: JT9-2 and JT9-5 mode application
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org

Hello Rik,

It has been a long time since I read the official WSPR-15 protocol
specification but your description sounds correct. I do remember it
is 0.8 Hz bandwidth.

Today I finally had time to install SlowJT9. It seems all the test
activity so far is on MF JT9-2 so I will monitor that starting
tonight. I have some work left to get my station back to QSO capable
but when I do I will try to make some MF QSOs with it, including TA
if there is interest.

My main interest is JT9-5 on LF but I have to find someone
interested in trying to test that. If anyone wants to transmit JT9-5
on LF I will switch to that. I don't know if it is possible to run
two instances of SlowJT9 with different settings?

73,
Paul N1BUG


On 11/10/18 9:36 AM, Rik Strobbe wrote:
> ​​Hello Paul,
> 
> 
> I cannot find the WSPR15 specs right away, but I assume that is
> is just a "stretched" version of WSPR(2).
> 
> In that case it would be 4-FSK at 0.195 Bd and a tone spacing of
> 0.195 Hz (0.8 Hz bandwidth).
> 
> JT9-15 would be 9-FSK at 0.116 Bd and a tone spacing of 0.116 Hz
> (1 Hz bandwidth).
> 
> Due to the smaller tone spacing I would assume that JT9-15 will
> be more vulnerable to frequency instabilities than WSPR15.
> 
> With the JT9 specs, JT9-10 would have 0.174 Hz tone spacing,
> close to  the 0.195 Hz of WSPR15.
> 
> But before implementing this it would be interesting to do some
> TA tests ising JT9-2 (where the S/N should be close to WSPR) and
> JT9-5 (4 dB better than WSPR ?)
> 
> 
> 73, Rik  ON7YD
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________ Van:
> rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk <rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk>
> namens N1BUG paul@n1bug.com [rsgb_lf_group]
> <rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk> Verzonden: donderdag 8 november
> 2018 23:42 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org;
> rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk Onderwerp: Re: [rsgb_lf_group]
> Re: LF: JT9-2 and JT9-5 mode application
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Rik,
> 
> I do not know the symbol lengths for JT9 slow and I do not know
> how it compares to WSPR about frequency stability requirements.
> 
> From my experiment last winter I can say that on LF WSPR15 often 
> gets across the pond when WSPR2 cannot. Clearly for WSPR mode,
> 15 minutes is no problem. Of course, maybe it's different for
> JT9. It was very interesting to see the success of WSPR15. That
> was what got me started thinking about slow versions of JT9
> again.
> 
> I would be more concerned about stability of my equipment. The 
> homebrew stuff is probably OK but the rather expensive
> transceiver used to drive the TX converters has a terrible TCXO.
> I never had much incentive to work on trying to fix it, but if
> JT9 slow becomes popular and if it needs better stability this
> will give me all the incentive needed! :)
> 
> Yes of course JT9-86400 for Stefan! ;-)
> 
> 73, Paul N1BUG
> 
> On 11/8/18 5:12 PM, Rik Strobbe wrote:
>> Hi Paul,
>> 
>> Adding even slower modes in the application is not difficult.
>> But the slower we go the more stringent the frequency
>> stability requirements are. For groundwave this is limited by
>> the TX and RX stability, but for skywave propagation the mood
>> changes of miss ionosphere could be nefast. 136 kHz might be
>> better suited for JT-10 ot JT-30 than 472kHz. Stefan might be
>> interested in JT-86400 (one message a day) for ULF ;-)
>> 
>> About JT9 coding: for this I am using another exe file of the 
>> WSJT-X suite. It seems to work fine, both for free and
>> structured messages.
>> 
>> 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T
>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________________ Van: 
>> rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk
>> <rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk> namens N1BUG paul@n1bug.com
>> [rsgb_lf_group] <rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk> Verzonden:
>> donderdag 8 november 2018 22:57 Aan:
>> rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk
>> Onderwerp: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: LF: JT9-2 and JT9-5 mode
>> application
>> 
>> Hello Rik,
>> 
>> I am very interested in this! Thank you very much for your
>> work! Tomorrow I will download the program.
>> 
>> I think we badly need these slow modes for the average LF 
>> operators (which is most of us at least on this side of the 
>> pond).
>> 
>> If the beta tests are successful, would it be possible to add 
>> JT9-10 and perhaps even JT9-30? For trans-Atlantic QSOs I
>> think these could be very helpful.
>> 
>> How did you transmit JT9-2 signals for the QSOs? I can do that 
>> with my U3S but it can only send free text messages limited to 
>> 13 characters. It cannot send the packed messages normally
>> used for QSOs.
>> 
>> 73, Paul N1BUG