Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id w8CFmITJ015378 for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 17:48:19 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1g07JO-0005F7-5l for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 16:44:14 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1g07JN-0005Ex-Br for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 16:44:13 +0100 Received: from mail-ed1-x52e.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::52e]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91_59-0488984) (envelope-from ) id 1g07JK-0007TE-8A for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 16:44:12 +0100 Received: by mail-ed1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id h4-v6so2151610edi.6 for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 08:44:10 -0700 (PDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=J8vIs/yHNdA9zKZymTYJORzFYGUk2S8rGIJQfwcTm6A=; b=JxEGsRdCdRSUSVKkvzAYzT8kiN4733nQhImMsrabVuq84lO73/+8VAKW/4t8ltuMAJ T5XIBzJYe7LW03PQcXAN3uNhZkWV1SGAeIfcngdtshNdL2yH84HtB7sqYJj+nrKeS0FH aHDcQUTkzBZRhwEQ0EL6PNquZ5pnl2CkZUHOPQs+uppsg5OSqfhQYpU/FgYbNBna08DW RHyxAwzMGzALCNfPzexmjFqNt/wK4dOD3LOTsVY8Z7P1SVBpegwy1i7ysF6vRJkv0P4Z WH49f2rE2fQsC4zL0pEdzVY10LLtlNwtOFU+1mSHgHpgbPmMrZ8pk4qkhvCpyNmb3dnf WCpQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=J8vIs/yHNdA9zKZymTYJORzFYGUk2S8rGIJQfwcTm6A=; b=nT2Nzszuq4J+rgySebPmO0FARB3sYILw3S8GU+CHRxO8D9eoD8ZJXmeP8/MvQAm0EP DF6me3jdQdSdIIA4oXqCc3UbVe0+zmTC3isxQhCkDo4DV0HXaIz/3KCMPGUOXlbphIk+ k7SfWJdY9owhBu/TI+E66+tQ2pRFBAGwuOIAxclAhbzITyQGztG9Ysbr0hx5xYeSebxA 1t9tfFzql9ry0Xui4RGN2mo43KTgttrmb3JBRK8Sy3zEf4gHOBCO0NKlV5yB/nmF6jbg qO88GFx2Gx6iZtdYE70kJn+rchl78a3QMr9ynv7T73JAFJRoU1yO0Jrcf4UOHrMG1Ysi 28Gg== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51B7gdAK6DizvehsfUCNdMMZUhLhHIeUvODt7Nacyf95zeHExwqi 1IZpNp5ga2tjxtUHJDZf3D692+aBfmRVSuItVXBzxQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0Vdbiuer0LNk4GnbIIQSu28pSSpHCgyFsTFHIsNdg5pEsHL2ydTjviGfR7b14BdzSk4tO8qxYxwK+vKeed7coOIU= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:d5cd:: with SMTP id d13-v6mr3542720eds.161.1536767049460; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 08:44:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a50:89ce:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 08:44:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <165ce6de202-1ebc-9cd@webjasstg-vab26.srv.aolmail.net> References: <165ce6de202-1ebc-9cd@webjasstg-vab26.srv.aolmail.net> From: Andy Talbot Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 16:44:09 +0100 Message-ID: To: LineOne X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: If you're in waveguide close to cutoff, the phase velocity changes very fast with frequency. That could be what you're seeing Andy www.g4jnt.com On 12 September 2018 at 16:37, Markus Vester wrote: [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [2a00:1450:4864:20:0:0:0:52e listed in] [list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (andy.g4jnt[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP URI: URI host has a public dotted-decimal IPv4 address 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: ad9c0e3658f56f4dbb01cd425a6a8031 Subject: Re: LF: VO1NA 8270.0075 Hz, 82 Hz phase Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000015f03e0575ae76fb" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNSAFE,HTML_MESSAGE,NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false --00000000000015f03e0575ae76fb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you're in waveguide close to cutoff, the phase velocity changes very fast with frequency. That could be what you're seeing Andy www.g4jnt.com On 12 September 2018 at 16:37, Markus Vester wrote: > Hi Joe, > > the bottom of the ionosphere is higher at night, so the geometrical lengt= h > of each hop increases. In that sense the phase variation is indeed a > Doppler shift, produced by a receding / approaching mirror. > > Normally at VLF this would probably be formulated in terms of phase > velocity for waveguide modes instead of rays and hops, but the underlying > physics is the same. Phase observations on MSK signals and fringing > patterns on 19.8 kHz indicate that VLF waves are ~ 0.2% slower at night. > > What is strange though is that at ELF frequencies the change seems to be > the other way round, and much stronger. From simultaneous observations of > ZEVS carrier phase in Amberg and Moonah, we surprisingly found that > the phase velocity at 82 Hz appears to be 15% (!) faster at night. > > Best 73, > Markus (DF6NM) > > -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung----- > Von: jcraig > An: rsgb_lf_group > Verschickt: Mi, 12. Sept 2018 16:06 > Betreff: Re: LF: VO1NA 8270.0075 Hz > > Hello Markus and Paul, group, > > That's a much better explaination than Doppler shift. What would cause a > 180 degree phase shift? Is there an XOR gate in the sky. > > A few more dB will depend on getting some plastic machined. Hopefully > this will be before the end of winter. > > The TX is off since ~10ut due to lightning in the forecast. > > 73 > Joe VO1NA > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018, Markus Vester wrote: > > > That continuous trace on Paul's spectrogram is impressive - great work! > > > > Attempting to extract a long spectrum from Paul's data creates a split > peak at +-12 uHz from the center, suggesting a repeating near 180=C2=B0 p= hase > difference between day and night. > > > > A close look on our Bavarian 31 uHz spectrograms seems to bring up some > faint traces on the right frequency, but to be more sure we still need a > few dB less noise, or more ERP. > > > > Best 73, > > Markus (DF6NM) > > > > > > -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung----- > > Von: jcraig > > An: rsgb_lf_group > > Verschickt: Mo, 10. Sept 2018 21:33 > > Betreff: Re: LF: VO1NA 8270.0075 Hz > > > > > > I've not been mucking with the tx or tuning so perhaps Mother Nature ha= s > > provided an ERP improvement -- the wx has been quite dry recently. > > > > Thank-you for the report and the spectrogram service. It keeps me > > entertained, especially since it seems impossible to see my own > > sigs with a remote setup at distances greater than about 10 km. > > > > Been playing with vt tools and a cheap sound card. > > > > 73 > > Joe VO1NA > > > > On Sun, 9 Sep 2018, Paul Nicholson wrote: > > > > VO1NA from Newfoundland with 10uW must hold the record for > > the longest running VLF transmission! > > > > Coming in well the last couple of days - > > > > http://78.46.38.217/fbins3.html#p=3D1536487200&b=3D280&s=3Dsp& > m=3Dcardioid&w=3Dr&h=3D62&z1=3D0.34&z2=3D0.64&c=3D1 > > > > An ERP improvement, or good propagation? > > > > -- > > Paul Nicholson > > -- > --00000000000015f03e0575ae76fb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you're in waveguide close to cutoff, the phase velo= city changes very fast with frequency.
That could be what you're se= eing

<= div>

On 12 September 2018 at 16:37, Markus Vester= <markusvester@aol.com> wrote:
Hi Joe,

the=C2=A0bottom of the ionosphere is higher at n= ight, so the geometrical length of each hop increases. In that sense the ph= ase variation=C2=A0is indeed a Doppler shift, produced by a receding / appr= oaching mirror.

Normally at VLF this would probably=C2=A0be formulat= ed in terms of=C2=A0phase velocity for waveguide modes instead of rays and = hops, but the=C2=A0underlying physics is the same. Phase observations on MS= K signals and=C2=A0fringing patterns on 19.8 kHz=C2=A0indicate that=C2=A0VL= F=C2=A0waves=C2=A0are=C2=A0~ 0.2% slower at night.

What is strange t= hough is that at ELF frequencies=C2=A0the=C2=A0change seems to be the other= way round, and much stronger.=C2=A0From simultaneous observations of ZEVS = carrier phase in Amberg and Moonah, we surprisingly found=C2=A0that the=C2= =A0phase velocity at 82 Hz appears to be=C2=A015% (!) faster at night.
<= br>Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)

-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung----= -
Von: jcraig <jc= raig@mun.ca>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>Verschickt: Mi, 12. Sept 2018 16:06
Betreff: Re: LF: VO1NA 8270.0075 Hz=

Hello Markus and Paul, group,

That's a much better= explaination than Doppler shift. What would cause a
180 degree phase sh= ift? Is there an XOR gate in the sky.

A few more dB will depend on g= etting some plastic machined. Hopefully
this will be before the end of = winter.

The TX is off since ~10ut due to lightning in the forecast.<= br>
73
Joe VO1NA

On Tue, 11 Sep 2018, Markus Vester wrote:
=
> That continuous trace on Paul's spectrogram is impressive - gr= eat work!
>
> Attempting to extract a long spectrum from Paul&#= 39;s data creates a split peak at +-12 uHz from the center, suggesting a re= peating near 180=C2=B0 phase difference between day and night.
>
&= gt; A close look on our Bavarian 31 uHz spectrograms seems to bring up some= faint traces on the right frequency, but to be more sure we still need a f= ew dB less noise, or more ERP.
>
> Best 73,
> Markus (DF6= NM)
>
>
> -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
>= Von: jcraig <jcraig@= mun.ca>
> An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>> Verschickt: Mo, 10. Sept 2018 21:33
> Betreff: Re: LF: VO1NA 82= 70.0075 Hz
>
>
> I've not been mucking with the tx or= tuning so perhaps Mother Nature has
> provided an ERP improvement --= the wx has been quite dry recently.
>
> Thank-you for the repo= rt and the spectrogram service. It keeps me
> entertained, especially= since it seems impossible to see my own
> sigs with a remote setup a= t distances greater than about 10 km.
>
> Been playing with vt = tools and a cheap sound card.
>
> 73
> Joe VO1NA
><= br>> On Sun, 9 Sep 2018, Paul Nicholson wrote:
>
> VO1NA fro= m Newfoundland with 10uW must hold the record for
> the longest runni= ng VLF transmission!
>
> Coming in well the last couple of days= -
>
> http://78.46.38.217/fbins3.html#p=3D1536487200&b=3D280&s=3Dsp&m=3Dcardioid&w=3D= r&h=3D62&z1=3D0.34&z2=3D0.64&c=3D1
>
>= An ERP improvement, or good propagation?
>
> --
> Paul Nicholson
> --

--00000000000015f03e0575ae76fb--