Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id w8CLcu0J017015 for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 23:38:57 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1g0Cd6-0007Kt-8f for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 22:24:56 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1g0CZt-0007K2-KG for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 22:21:37 +0100 Received: from omr-a018e.mx.aol.com ([204.29.186.64]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.91_59-0488984) (envelope-from ) id 1g0CZk-0008CY-MZ for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 22:21:30 +0100 Received: from mtaomg-aah01.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-aah01.mx.aol.com [172.27.1.143]) by omr-a018e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 5434E380005C for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 17:21:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-ace01a.mail.aol.com (core-ace01.mail.aol.com [172.27.23.1]) by mtaomg-aah01.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 04F2B38000081 for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 17:21:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 188.194.221.221 by webjasstg-vaa20.srv.aolmail.net (10.96.25.23) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Wed, 12 Sep 2018 17:21:25 -0400 Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 17:21:25 -0400 From: Markus Vester To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-Id: <165cfa90701-1ebd-1b36@webjasstg-vaa20.srv.aolmail.net> In-Reply-To: <165ce6de202-1ebc-9cd@webjasstg-vab26.srv.aolmail.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: JAS STD X-Originating-IP: [188.194.221.221] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20150623; t=1536787286; bh=kyzFB5BTcGyPbPHwjN1U3R3aqi9YD9BuzG5PShRpiio=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=62yQBnUG5Wlem8TWbzqcF/1H3Gac1VYzJDIIFBoVkHm/LRPWA9i65ExwqqiazaUU7 d30WARIVZPKXAIro6N7RQFCFX9/P7CuPYXzBTAjAuketveM8Fobg51O8mTeuCgaZkf I7PNO/3BtmwbZHXBeUM/tk6v51GjtSPqruO/oRJ4= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1b018f5b99835644c9 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. 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Content preview: Hi Jim, wonder if you could run phase calculations for 82 Hz, Murmansk to Amberg and Murmansk to Tasmania? 73, Markus [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [204.29.186.64 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (markusvester[at]aol.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP URI: URI host has a public dotted-decimal IPv4 address 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 7c995d39cde70605aa76dd18810a4256 Subject: Re: LF: VO1NA 8270.0075 Hz, 82 Hz phase Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_9563_1663363800.1536787285761" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false ------=_Part_9563_1663363800.1536787285761 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jim,=20 wonder if you could run phase calculations for 82 Hz, Murmansk to Amberg an= d Murmansk to Tasmania? 73, Markus -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: Markus Vester An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Mi, 12. Sept 2018 17:39 Betreff: Re: LF: VO1NA 8270.0075 Hz, 82 Hz phase Hi Joe, the bottom of the ionosphere is higher at night, so the geometrical length = of each hop increases. In that sense the phase variation is indeed a Dopple= r shift, produced by a receding / approaching mirror. Normally at VLF this would probably be formulated in terms of phase velocit= y for waveguide modes instead of rays and hops, but the underlying physics = is the same. Phase observations on MSK signals and fringing patterns on 19.= 8 kHz indicate that VLF waves are ~ 0.3% slower at night. What is strange though is that at ELF frequencies the change seems to be th= e other way round, and much stronger. From simultaneous observations of ZEV= S carrier phase in Amberg and Moonah, we surprisingly found that the phase = velocity at 82 Hz appears to be 15% (!) faster at night. Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: jcraig An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Mi, 12. Sept 2018 16:06 Betreff: Re: LF: VO1NA 8270.0075 Hz Hello Markus and Paul, group, That's a much better explaination than Doppler shift. What would cause a 180 degree phase shift? Is there an XOR gate in the sky. A few more dB will depend on getting some plastic machined. Hopefully this will be before the end of winter. The TX is off since ~10ut due to lightning in the forecast. 73 Joe VO1NA On Tue, 11 Sep 2018, Markus Vester wrote: > That continuous trace on Paul's spectrogram is impressive - great work! > > Attempting to extract a long spectrum from Paul's data creates a split pe= ak at +-12 uHz from the center, suggesting a repeating near 180=C2=B0 phase= difference between day and night. > > A close look on our Bavarian 31 uHz spectrograms seems to bring up some f= aint traces on the right frequency, but to be more sure we still need a few= dB less noise, or more ERP. > > Best 73, > Markus (DF6NM) > > > -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung----- > Von: jcraig > An: rsgb_lf_group > Verschickt: Mo, 10. Sept 2018 21:33 > Betreff: Re: LF: VO1NA 8270.0075 Hz > > > I've not been mucking with the tx or tuning so perhaps Mother Nature has > provided an ERP improvement -- the wx has been quite dry recently. > > Thank-you for the report and the spectrogram service. It keeps me > entertained, especially since it seems impossible to see my own > sigs with a remote setup at distances greater than about 10 km. > > Been playing with vt tools and a cheap sound card. > > 73 > Joe VO1NA > > On Sun, 9 Sep 2018, Paul Nicholson wrote: > > VO1NA from Newfoundland with 10uW must hold the record for > the longest running VLF transmission! > > Coming in well the last couple of days - > > http://78.46.38.217/fbins3.html#p=3D1536487200&b=3D280&s=3Dsp&m=3Dcardioi= d&w=3Dr&h=3D62&z1=3D0.34&z2=3D0.64&c=3D1 > > An ERP improvement, or good propagation? > > -- > Paul Nicholson > -- ------=_Part_9563_1663363800.1536787285761 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jim,

wonder if you could run phase calcu= lations for 82 Hz, Murmansk to Amberg and Murmansk to Tasmania?

73, = Markus



-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: Mark= us Vester <markusvester@aol.com>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_gro= up@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: Mi, 12. Sept 2018 17:39
Betreff: Re= : LF: VO1NA 8270.0075 Hz, 82 Hz phase

Hi Joe,

the bottom of the ionosphere is= higher at night, so the geometrical length of each hop increases. In that = sense the phase variation is indeed a Doppler shift, produced by a rec= eding / approaching mirror.

Normally at VLF this would probably = ;be formulated in terms of phase velocity for waveguide modes instead = of rays and hops, but the underlying physics is the same. Phase observ= ations on MSK signals and fringing patterns on 19.8 kHz indicate = that VLF waves are ~ 0.3% slower at ni= ght.

What is strange though is that at ELF frequencies the = ;change seems to be the other way round, and much stronger. From simul= taneous observations of ZEVS carrier phase in Amberg and Moonah, we surpris= ingly found that the phase velocity at 82 Hz appears to be 1= 5% (!) faster at night.

Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)

-----Urspr= =C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: jcraig <jcraig@mun.ca>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschi= ckt: Mi, 12. Sept 2018 16:06
Betreff: Re: LF: VO1NA 8270.0075 Hz

=
Hello Markus and Paul, group,

That's a much better explainatio= n than Doppler shift. What would cause a
180 degree phase shift? Is ther= e an XOR gate in the sky.

A few more dB will depend on getting some = plastic machined. Hopefully
this will be before the end of winter.
<= br>The TX is off since ~10ut due to lightning in the forecast.

73Joe VO1NA

On Tue, 11 Sep 2018, Markus Vester wrote:

> Tha= t continuous trace on Paul's spectrogram is impressive - great work!
>= ;
> Attempting to extract a long spectrum from Paul's data creates a = split peak at +-12 uHz from the center, suggesting a repeating near 180=C2= =B0 phase difference between day and night.
>
> A close look on= our Bavarian 31 uHz spectrograms seems to bring up some faint traces on th= e right frequency, but to be more sure we still need a few dB less noise, o= r more ERP.
>
> Best 73,
> Markus (DF6NM)
>
>=
> -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
> Von: jcraig <rs= gb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
> Verschickt: Mo, 10. Sept 2018 21= :33
> Betreff: Re: LF: VO1NA 8270.0075 Hz
>
>
> I'v= e not been mucking with the tx or tuning so perhaps Mother Nature has
&g= t; provided an ERP improvement -- the wx has been quite dry recently.
&g= t;
> Thank-you for the report and the spectrogram service. It keeps m= e
> entertained, especially since it seems impossible to see my own> sigs with a remote setup at distances greater than about 10 km.
&= gt;
> Been playing with vt tools and a cheap sound card.
>
&= gt; 73
> Joe VO1NA
>
> On Sun, 9 Sep 2018, Paul Nicholson= wrote:
>
> VO1NA from Newfoundland with 10uW must hold the rec= ord for
> the longest running VLF transmission!
>
> Comin= g in well the last couple of days -
>
> http://78.46.38.217/fbins3.html#p=3D15364872= 00&b=3D280&s=3Dsp&m=3Dcardioid&w=3Dr&h=3D62&z1=3D0.= 34&z2=3D0.64&c=3D1
>
> An ERP improvement, or good = propagation?
>
> --
> Paul Nicholson
> --
------=_Part_9563_1663363800.1536787285761--