Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id w8CG6iTR015478 for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 18:06:45 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1g07b0-0005UU-Vk for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 17:02:26 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1g07b0-0005UL-DS for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 17:02:26 +0100 Received: from omr-m015e.mx.aol.com ([204.29.186.15]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.91_59-0488984) (envelope-from ) id 1g07ax-0007XM-Nm for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 17:02:25 +0100 Received: from mtaomg-aao01.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-aao01.mx.aol.com [172.27.21.15]) by omr-m015e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 6113D380004E for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 12:02:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-ace01a.mail.aol.com (core-ace01.mail.aol.com [172.27.23.1]) by mtaomg-aao01.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id BD23B38000084 for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 12:02:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 80.146.228.86 by webjasstg-vab12.srv.aolmail.net (10.96.25.79) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Wed, 12 Sep 2018 12:02:19 -0400 Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 12:02:19 -0400 From: Markus Vester To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-Id: <165ce84e05a-1eb9-e5bf@webjasstg-vab12.srv.aolmail.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: JAS STD X-Originating-IP: [80.146.228.86] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20150623; t=1536768141; bh=iYcdZuo0UKhR90ve9ROuHStnZe+idea9zgMA66ci4h8=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=t6WDAKfGhBjZtD38W0UuLgOtQkPupXr0YJ53Cx1iNNUAzDMzJeehcSEMjNWi024P2 d5XQYSOwoT59L3zRCy/Ryjr/mJDPgFnCemEdYYCJe5LUNSWv1lhTI+JMPhQR/+pAWW 7G68UXpITVVs9r+Gt5sJku9JQF9yoNftLi6p5B7o= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1b150f5b99388c3017 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Yes Andy, understood. But I think at 82 Hz the wavelength is so large that we only have the fundamental TEM mode, which won't cut off. Typo correction: The change at VLF should be 0.3% (not 0.2%). However this still gives less than 180° for Joe and Paul. [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [204.29.186.15 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (markusvester[at]aol.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP URI: URI host has a public dotted-decimal IPv4 address 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 74b370a313f780c8b04cdb625468086b Subject: Re: LF: VO1NA 8270.0075 Hz, 82 Hz phase Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_77297_1433306681.1536768139354" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false ------=_Part_77297_1433306681.1536768139354 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes Andy, understood. But I think at 82 Hz the wavelength is so large that = we only have the fundamental TEM mode, which won't cut off. Typo correction: The change at VLF should be 0.3% (not 0.2%). However this = still gives less than 180=C2=B0 for Joe and Paul.=20 Best 73, Markus -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: Andy Talbot An: LineOne Verschickt: Mi, 12. Sept 2018 17:45 Betreff: Re: LF: VO1NA 8270.0075 Hz, 82 Hz phase If you're in waveguide close to cutoff, the phase velocity changes very fas= t with frequency. That could be what you're seeing Andy www.g4jnt.com On 12 September 2018 at 16:37, Markus Vester wrote: Hi Joe, the bottom of the ionosphere is higher at night, so the geometrical length = of each hop increases. In that sense the phase variation is indeed a Dopple= r shift, produced by a receding / approaching mirror. Normally at VLF this would probably be formulated in terms of phase velocit= y for waveguide modes instead of rays and hops, but the underlying physics = is the same. Phase observations on MSK signals and fringing patterns on 19.= 8 kHz indicate that VLF waves are ~ 0.2% slower at night. What is strange though is that at ELF frequencies the change seems to be th= e other way round, and much stronger. From simultaneous observations of ZEV= S carrier phase in Amberg and Moonah, we surprisingly found that the phase = velocity at 82 Hz appears to be 15% (!) faster at night. Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: jcraig An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Mi, 12. Sept 2018 16:06 Betreff: Re: LF: VO1NA 8270.0075 Hz Hello Markus and Paul, group, That's a much better explaination than Doppler shift. What would cause a 180 degree phase shift? Is there an XOR gate in the sky. A few more dB will depend on getting some plastic machined. Hopefully this will be before the end of winter. The TX is off since ~10ut due to lightning in the forecast. 73 Joe VO1NA On Tue, 11 Sep 2018, Markus Vester wrote: > That continuous trace on Paul's spectrogram is impressive - great work! > > Attempting to extract a long spectrum from Paul's data creates a split pe= ak at +-12 uHz from the center, suggesting a repeating near 180=C2=B0 phase= difference between day and night. > > A close look on our Bavarian 31 uHz spectrograms seems to bring up some f= aint traces on the right frequency, but to be more sure we still need a few= dB less noise, or more ERP. > > Best 73, > Markus (DF6NM) > > > -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung----- > Von: jcraig > An: rsgb_lf_group > Verschickt: Mo, 10. Sept 2018 21:33 > Betreff: Re: LF: VO1NA 8270.0075 Hz > > > I've not been mucking with the tx or tuning so perhaps Mother Nature has > provided an ERP improvement -- the wx has been quite dry recently. > > Thank-you for the report and the spectrogram service. It keeps me > entertained, especially since it seems impossible to see my own > sigs with a remote setup at distances greater than about 10 km. > > Been playing with vt tools and a cheap sound card. > > 73 > Joe VO1NA > > On Sun, 9 Sep 2018, Paul Nicholson wrote: > > VO1NA from Newfoundland with 10uW must hold the record for > the longest running VLF transmission! > > Coming in well the last couple of days - > > http://78.46.38.217/fbins3.html#p=3D1536487200&b=3D280&s=3Dsp&m=3Dcardioi= d&w=3Dr&h=3D62&z1=3D0.34&z2=3D0.64&c=3D1 > > An ERP improvement, or good propagation? > > -- > Paul Nicholson > -- ------=_Part_77297_1433306681.1536768139354 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes Andy, understood. But I think at 82 Hz the wavelengt= h is so large that we only have the fundamental TEM mode, which won't cut o= ff.

Typo correction: The change at VLF should be 0.3% (not 0.2%).&nb= sp;However this still gives less than 180=C2=B0 for Joe and Paul. 
=
Best 73,
Markus

-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
V= on: Andy Talbot <andy.g4jnt@gmail.com>
An: LineOne <rsgb_lf_gro= up@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: Mi, 12. Sept 2018 17:45
Betreff: Re= : LF: VO1NA 8270.0075 Hz, 82 Hz phase

If you're in waveguide clos= e to cutoff, the phase velocity changes very fast with frequency.
That = could be what you're seeing
<= div dir=3D"ltr">Andy
=

On 12 September 2018 at 16:37, Marku= s Vester <markusvester@aol.com> wrote:
Hi Joe,

the bottom of the ionosphere is= higher at night, so the geometrical length of each hop increases. In that = sense the phase variation is indeed a Doppler shift, produced by a rec= eding / approaching mirror.

Normally at VLF this would probably = ;be formulated in terms of phase velocity for waveguide modes instead = of rays and hops, but the underlying physics is the same. Phase observ= ations on MSK signals and fringing patterns on 19.8 kHz indicate = that VLF waves are ~ 0.2% slower at night.

What = is strange though is that at ELF frequencies the change seems to = be the other way round, and much stronger. From simultaneous observati= ons of ZEVS carrier phase in Amberg and Moonah, we surprisingly found = that the phase velocity at 82 Hz appears to be 15% (!) faster at = night.

Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)

-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mit= teilung-----
Von: jcraig <jcraig@mun.ca>
An: rsgb_lf_g= roup <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschi= ckt: Mi, 12. Sept 2018 16:06
Betreff: Re: LF: VO1NA 8270.0075 Hz

=
Hello Markus and Paul, group,

That's a much better explainatio= n than Doppler shift. What would cause a
180 degree phase shift? Is ther= e an XOR gate in the sky.

A few more dB will depend on getting some = plastic machined. Hopefully
this will be before the end of winter.
<= br>The TX is off since ~10ut due to lightning in the forecast.

73Joe VO1NA

On Tue, 11 Sep 2018, Markus Vester wrote:

> Tha= t continuous trace on Paul's spectrogram is impressive - great work!
>= ;
> Attempting to extract a long spectrum from Paul's data creates a = split peak at +-12 uHz from the center, suggesting a repeating near 180=C2= =B0 phase difference between day and night.
>
> A close look on= our Bavarian 31 uHz spectrograms seems to bring up some faint traces on th= e right frequency, but to be more sure we still need a few dB less noise, o= r more ERP.
>
> Best 73,
> Markus (DF6NM)
>
>=
> -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
> Von: jcraig <rs= gb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
> Verschickt: Mo, 10. Sept 2018 21= :33
> Betreff: Re: LF: VO1NA 8270.0075 Hz
>
>
> I'v= e not been mucking with the tx or tuning so perhaps Mother Nature has
&g= t; provided an ERP improvement -- the wx has been quite dry recently.
&g= t;
> Thank-you for the report and the spectrogram service. It keeps m= e
> entertained, especially since it seems impossible to see my own> sigs with a remote setup at distances greater than about 10 km.
&= gt;
> Been playing with vt tools and a cheap sound card.
>
&= gt; 73
> Joe VO1NA
>
> On Sun, 9 Sep 2018, Paul Nicholson= wrote:
>
> VO1NA from Newfoundland with 10uW must hold the rec= ord for
> the longest running VLF transmission!
>
> Comin= g in well the last couple of days -
>
> http://78.46.38.217/fbins3.html#p=3D153= 6487200&b=3D280&s=3Dsp&m=3Dcardioid&w=3Dr&h=3D62&a= mp;z1=3D0.34&z2=3D0.64&c=3D1
>
> An ERP improv= ement, or good propagation?
>
> --
> Paul Nicholson
> --
=

------=_Part_77297_1433306681.1536768139354--