Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id w8AIaOs9027560 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 20:36:26 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1fzQxt-0004uA-Iv for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 19:31:13 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1fzQxZ-0004u1-28 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 19:30:53 +0100 Received: from resqmta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net ([2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:44]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91_59-0488984) (envelope-from ) id 1fzQxV-0001Nf-9V for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 19:30:51 +0100 Received: from resomta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.107]) by resqmta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id zL9SfT7wputrUzQxPf9uk3; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 18:30:43 +0000 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=comcast.net Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20161114; t=1536604243; bh=KeFzAUjBO9g9/TpONGELoIbC4uydKMulxWeDZOARz0A=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=nxzZ+Z3TVrLQdsFqTEJKATIuL7IWvRTNlAwQc0ovvg6J9vLf3s+RSUI59DRzELABw SIuDJYkUa74la4dwg7vGyGukqutdE/MDJlDUDVeNqcvPLdf6ty9wFuvyZ1Zt3Xvdwq ZVt2h5Yunol/+q5s7fwG3NFSkB/fG+0xEY8kYAgPCtcM4J/G32uEQEkTmh13GWhn/M 3MsMo38rVoSE/TID0zJh009WMcmwpjpdXPrXYvKaYfIAMIYZsG1usciAxTkQ46a5vg KsjafIzTgVoBaDh3kidHZrrxE/K7rNtHt8AJd8o+OKZ0LoqTDsfUR9hg27u5JKzLfR dJTk9fVbErXFw== Received: from Owner ([IPv6:2601:140:8500:7f9f:a593:49:2f36:f121]) by resomta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPA id zQxMflXyp3RZDzQxNfxFP8; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 18:30:42 +0000 From: To: References: <5B94344B.3030503@posteo.de> <165bb2c1d17-1ebb-76dc@webjasstg-vaa41.srv.aolmail.net> <006701d448ce$391ad670$ab508350$@comcast.net> <5B966C69.6060000@posteo.de> In-Reply-To: <5B966C69.6060000@posteo.de> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 14:30:38 -0400 Message-ID: <010e01d44934$60f6a190$22e3e4b0$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJ8hoi9XVemPdMh1725juDHpoCQfwJjSrBnAktdF7cBg4RBt6Nnx7Uw Content-Language: en-us X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfDvKzXnfuPh/xFGhGjVvkA9SllIAV2OHEkANiQrGirv4C1++CugCqAMtRFe/DUynrRE9dRF/ljt5fdZu7UmkItu4jUCz7mcc/Jaqsb/ZaFwW7QyAVrZ3 oJboSYm3tgAIVR4S/ZOW2DH2Ct+drLpSY+D/U5Zn3cUloo+Nj0clbCWFewZXxhFd+LPxYohwt5LtcWfCjfE1pdJrtiE036hs+dw3Yfr0iTSVAiYC7Uf3s9UF X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Hi Stefan, Your ground-loop results are pure enjoyment at this spectator QTH; the numbers that you provided in your “ERP and loop efficiency” message below seem to suggest efficiency equal to or better than that of the Norway (Dazey) test. This is a most remarkable and enjoyable experiment in many ways. [...] Content analysis details: (-0.7 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:44 listed in] [list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (hvanesce[at]comcast.net) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP URI: URI host has a public dotted-decimal IPv4 address 0.0 T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID BODY: Test for Invalidly Named or Formatted Colors in HTML 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 86b6d14137f1f41166b7b27a17921f7a Subject: LF: RE: ERP and loop efficiency Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_010F_01D44912.D9E59DD0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_010F_01D44912.D9E59DD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stefan, =20 Your ground-loop results are pure enjoyment at this spectator QTH; the = numbers that you provided in your =E2=80=9CERP and loop = efficiency=E2=80=9D message below seem to suggest efficiency equal to or = better than that of the Norway (Dazey) test. This is a most remarkable = and enjoyable experiment in many ways. =20 73, =20 Jim AA5BW=20 =20 From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of DK7FC Sent: Monday, September 10, 2018 9:07 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: ULF: ERP and loop efficiency =20 Hi Jim,=20 (I changed the subject.) Well, i remember there was a day where Markus transmitted on 8270 Hz, = and me too. We were both visible on Paul's grabber.=20 Markus told me i was about 5 dB stronger there. Here is a spectrum from = Pauls grabber (me on 8270.000 Hz) = http://78.46.38.217/fbins3.html#p=3D1532887200 = = &b=3D120&s=3Dpw&m=3Dcardioid&w=3Dr&h=3D42&z1=3D0.34&z2=3D0.64&c=3D1&mb=3D= 632,136,655,212,1 Well the Distance from Paul to Markus is 1028 km, the distance to my = ground loop is 840 km. Markus used an E field antenne, i used a H field = antenna, so there may be some better filter and antenna mixing = coefficients for one of the stations. Let's say, due to the different = distances, i have an advantage of 1.8 dB. Markus states he emits 10 uW (i guess that is EMRP) so my signal seems = to have about 20 uW EMRP during that transmission, in which i run 550 mA = antenna current.=20 Meanwhile i can run 1.8 A antenna current (+10.3 dB), so the signal = could have 215 uW. That is with 255 W RF power. So the antenna = efficiency is about -60 dB at 8270 Hz, based on Markus' 10 uW statement = (?). I have no idea if the equivalent loop area actually increases with a = dropping TX frequency. On LF it seems to do at least :-) Assuming the area is constant, the efficiency will be even 14.4 dB lower = on 1570 Hz and 18.6 dB lower on 970 Hz. Uuuh i hope this is not true = :-) So the EMRP on 1570 Hz was maybe 8 uW at a -74.4 dB efficiency. 73, Stefan Am 10.09.2018 08:19, schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net:=20 Hello Markus, Stefan, Paul, =20 Is there any way of guessing the ERP of the 1570 Hz (or 2970 Hz) = earth-loop tests last week? =20 I noticed that ERP/wallplug-power efficiency of the Norway (Dazey) test = at 1280 Hz might extrapolate to about 2E-8 with 1 km between electrodes = (with ~ 20 ohm electrode-to-earth resistance); and though it might be = informative to compare. =20 =20 73, =20 Jim AA5BW ------=_NextPart_000_010F_01D44912.D9E59DD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Stefan,

 

Your ground-loop results are pure enjoyment at this spectator QTH; = the numbers that you provided in your =E2=80=9CERP and loop = efficiency=E2=80=9D message below seem to suggest efficiency equal to or = better than that of the Norway (Dazey) test. This is a most remarkable and enjoyable = experiment in many ways.

 

73,

 

Jim AA5BW

 

From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of = DK7FC
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2018 9:07 = AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: ULF: = ERP and loop efficiency

 

Hi Jim, =

(I changed the subject.)
Well, i remember there was a day = where Markus transmitted on 8270 Hz, and me too. We were both visible on = Paul's grabber.
Markus told me i was about 5 dB stronger there. Here = is a spectrum from Pauls grabber (me on 8270.000 Hz) http://78.46.38.217/fbins3.html#p=3D153= 2887200&b=3D120&s=3Dpw&m=3Dcardioid&w=3Dr&h=3D42&= z1=3D0.34&z2=3D0.64&c=3D1&mb=3D632,136,655,212,1
Well = the Distance from Paul to Markus is 1028 km, the distance to my ground = loop is 840 km. Markus used an E field antenne, i used a H field = antenna, so there may be some better filter and antenna mixing = coefficients for one of the stations. Let's say, due to the different = distances, i have an advantage of 1.8 dB.
Markus states he emits 10 = uW (i guess that is EMRP) so my signal seems to have about 20 uW EMRP = during that transmission, in which i run 550 mA antenna current. =
Meanwhile i can run 1.8 A antenna current (+10.3 dB), so the signal = could have 215 uW. That is with 255 W RF power. So the antenna = efficiency is about -60 dB at 8270 Hz, based on Markus' 10 uW statement = (?).

I have no idea if the equivalent loop area actually = increases with a dropping TX frequency. On LF it seems to do at least = :-)
Assuming the area is constant, the efficiency will be even 14.4 = dB lower on 1570 Hz and 18.6 dB lower on 970 Hz.  Uuuh i hope this = is not true :-)
So the EMRP on 1570 Hz was maybe 8 uW at a -74.4 dB = efficiency.

73, Stefan


Am 10.09.2018 08:19, schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net: =

Hello Markus, Stefan, Paul,

 

Is there any way of guessing the ERP of the 1570 Hz (or 2970 Hz) = earth-loop tests last week?

 

I noticed that ERP/wallplug-power efficiency of the Norway (Dazey) = test at 1280 Hz might extrapolate to about 2E-8 with 1 km between = electrodes (with ~ 20 ohm electrode-to-earth resistance); and though it = might be informative to compare.  

 

73,

 

Jim AA5BW



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