Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id w3H13ruS024876 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 03:03:55 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1f8Eq0-00046b-Vv for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 01:51:12 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1f8Eps-00046S-JH for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 01:51:04 +0100 Received: from mail-wr0-x234.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c0c::234]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1f8Epo-0003kF-RL for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 01:51:03 +0100 Received: by mail-wr0-x234.google.com with SMTP id s18so30728621wrg.9 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 17:51:00 -0700 (PDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Hnvas2IZShgaRhrilMqx2LWLeSCvok3X7COeWEun6Pw=; b=bK6bu92UJhvlSRFJ1ATZYdIQb9YR2EyCxLOtwWgzUiJpRYMwjZxhOKjVyzQ+b75ltP TL4SJEBvlUtDUt+3iryYpRld4g6tIRkjo/RO1BIm55iqqbOPehAHxYSaYIjp5c+KN2+k JTCrFlOxVgMnRW+IXyzbMY8R12BM3pxteO9bGJTw7bKjYUi/dewBO77Q/tcEESAgOED1 ljBzAbf4E54cK3L4M5mHgH7/OImXZhySKfV6w1N/+DNCExM3c6TFE1sxEsVcxgNCyPNU Ws4I1jvcFJ/7YJ84jb+IC8jN4LzurBA6U5gIOki8FS276AowmaL7YULLUp5VHQnh+dBi OQBA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=Hnvas2IZShgaRhrilMqx2LWLeSCvok3X7COeWEun6Pw=; b=XZU+vWYoeQRL8gJNBmSgSVyA399tLEvouXzsnB60Xz+GeXjwT+sA21SCkIumrkfUaX y+jo2LvVSOMi+UBHJ4iXF8ll1k0pr78ENlHVDhmH8mNIMKKC0i6/LvzG8I1KP8zmn+Cs XQkS49pA+0l/JufUDiyK51lUcO4zfXzaD1uF7YD0J75Guu8fISvhWyh4oCh1GPvgnaKx HWKJ+I5cwOfMg6Zbw9QULHAyD5bkK0pienyaFZ9JFLnHRkNPrWJFXCe8gjIYhS4zLqXS q2stDTevEeE6bbAH5WJBIz8ClTQTPUrcU3WSBk5m5EQxKwXEEOc3gE4A6BLXNzqtZc1L gBMQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tA1I9/9CtuCeHC3Dr7zgmKpiGth17DUZFhA++e4hFeTIx8g4wll gVi5bivd9SxIj+TPRLowG7xPs4pc5kwsw90mrGg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+6EOod8JVumS+0OX4ARzZ2jCGQC/T/a4+PENB5OPZGp86arkGuvC2qLrKYPUID8YuYeBwcCH1aWvhWhHO4jYE= X-Received: by 10.80.134.187 with SMTP id r56mr553101eda.64.1523926258607; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 17:50:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <953519455.20180416112457@gmail.com> <71940ee0-587b-5f59-a709-bda5ca93d45a@n1bug.com> <586779889.20180416143246@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <586779889.20180416143246@gmail.com> From: Riccardo Zoli Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 00:50:47 +0000 Message-ID: To: LF Group X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Chris, Considering that you're handling a lot of power, all you need is a simple relay sequencer. Take a look here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xmwan9kuitu1l75/20180417_010251.jpg?dl=0 [...] Content analysis details: (1.3 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.2 FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT Envelope-from freemail username ends in digit (riccardozoli80[at]gmail.com) 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (riccardozoli80[at]gmail.com) 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid 1.0 FREEMAIL_REPLY From and body contain different freemails X-Scan-Signature: 2f90a4c609af5ffc8bc1d07d55c0cce1 Subject: Re: LF: Antenna change over relay testing question Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045c1d8c4eeda0056a00bb81" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false --f403045c1d8c4eeda0056a00bb81 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Chris, Considering that you're handling a lot of power, all you need is a simple relay sequencer. Take a look here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xmwan9kuitu1l75/20180417_010251.jpg?dl=0 A 150-200ms delay step seems adequate. Obviously, K1 is your Russian relay and K2 is your "safety relay". As Paul said, you can also add a pair of 1N4148 connected in anti-parallel on RX input. All the best 73 de Riccardo IW4DXW Il Lun 16 Apr 2018, 15:36 Chris Wilson ha scritto: > > > Hello Paul. > > The U3S changes the state of a transistor switch that in turn powers > the relays. the DC to DC convertor runs all the time. I guess I need > some sort of latching device that stays in the latched state even if > just a glitch from a short duration of high RF is seen on the receiver > port. Needless to say for testing no RX will be connected....! Thanks > for the reply. > > Monday, April 16, 2018, 2:19:02 PM, you wrote: > > > Hello Chris, > > > The only "something" I can think of would be a really small fast > > blow fuse. Fuses come in ratings down to 1mA at least but they tend > > to be pricey and a bit hard to find. I can't be sure that would blow > > fast enough to catch all potential momentary glitches which might > > harm a delicate receiver. Surely someone here has a better idea! > > > Reversing the amp and antenna connections should not cause the > > problem in and of itself. Reversing those connections combined with > > failure of the relay to switch would but in that case you probably > > shouldn't have been receiving anything earlier in the night since > > the antenna would never have been connected to the receiver. > > > I don't see how delayed relay switching would have caused your > > problem (unless the connections were in fact reversed) but exactly > > how is this configured? Does the U3S switch on the DC-DC converter > > or does the DC-DC converter run all the time with the U3S simply > > energizing the relay from it? I'm wondering about start-up time for > > the converter... > > > Good luck with it. I personally don't like using the transmit > > antenna for receiving as it slams way too high a level into the > > receiver, leading to possible overload issues. I suppose you could > > use an attenuator. > > > Even with a dedicated and small receiving antenna it's wise to > > provide some sort of overload protection for the receiver. I > > measured 250mW coming down the line from my LNV while transmitting > > on LF with 200 watts! Not good! Here the protection is extremely > > crude, a pair of back to back diodes across the receiver input. That > > has protected my receiver but causes its own set of issues. > > Unfortunately I don't have a better solution that works at LF. > > > Paul > > > > > On 04/16/2018 06:24 AM, Chris Wilson wrote: > >> > >> > >> Hello LF'ers, > >> > >> After an expensive accident whereby my home brew antenna change over > >> relay put nearly a kW of RF up the RX antenna jack of my Kenwood > >> TS-590 i want to safely long term test the relay. It may have been my > >> lack of foresight in using two identical N type sockets for the amp > >> input and the antenna on the relay box and they got reversed...The > >> relay is a Russian > >> http://qro-parts.com/product_info.php?products_id=102 > >> > >> It needs 24V to reliably change, that is sourced from 12V via a DC to > >> DC converter that is energised via a safely long delay from my U3S > >> exciter so TX is delayed 100mS It's connected like this: > >> > >> > >> The output of my 1 kW amplifier to NO connection and receiver to NC > >> connection of the same relay, with COM port to antenna), then > >> de-energized I'd always be in RX mode and energized I'd be in TX mode > >> and there's no way the TX should ever be connected to the RX no > >> matter what failed. (Theoretically! I am not sure what reversing the > >> amp and antenna connections may have caused, but I am concerned some > >> other issue caused the RF to appear on the RX port....) I don't think > >> the pre LPF voltages from the amp would be too high for this relay, > >> but can't be 1005 sure of this given what occurred. In any case > >> there's also a 40 Amp 24V automotive "safety relay" that grounds the > RX output jack > >> when in TX mode. The failure of this to protect the TS-590 further > >> suggests I might have had the antenna and amplifier connectors > >> reversed, although it all worked fine until the early hours when the > >> WSPR spots ceased and I found the bad news. > >> > >> Anyway, I need a "something" to put across the RX antenna output BNC > >> socket that wil blow or somehow tell tale if RF is injected there. I > >> don't have a high power enough dummy load other than a huge water > >> cooled 10kW Bird one which means flowing mains water through it to an > >> outside gutter overnight or longer. My none water cooled one won't > >> take high power for long at all. If a FET blows in the amp I can > >> swallow that, rather than my current Red Pitaya receiver getting RF up > >> it :) So what could I put across the jack instead of a receiver that > >> will tell tale anything nasty happening during a prolonged test > >> please? Thanks. > > > > > -- > Best regards, > Chris mailto:dead.fets@gmail.com > > > --f403045c1d8c4eeda0056a00bb81 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Chris,

Considering that you'= re handling a lot of power, all you need is a simple relay sequencer.
=
Take a look here:


A 150-200ms delay step seems adequate.
Obviously, K1 is your Russian relay and K2 is your &quo= t;safety relay". As Paul said, you can also add a pair of 1N4148 conne= cted in anti-parallel on RX input.

All the best

=
73 de Riccardo IW4DXW


Il= Lun 16 Apr 2018, 15:36 Chris Wilson <dead.fets@gmail.com> ha scritto:


Hello Paul.

The=C2=A0 U3S=C2=A0 changes the state of a transistor switch that in turn p= owers
the=C2=A0 relays.=C2=A0 the DC to DC convertor runs all the time. I guess I= need
some=C2=A0 sort=C2=A0 of=C2=A0 latching device that stays in the latched st= ate even if
just a glitch from a short duration of high RF is seen on the receiver
port.=C2=A0 Needless to say for testing no RX will be connected....! Thanks=
for the reply.

Monday, April 16, 2018, 2:19:02 PM, you wrote:

> Hello Chris,

> The only "something" I can think of would be a really small = fast
> blow fuse. Fuses come in ratings down to 1mA at least but they tend > to be pricey and a bit hard to find. I can't be sure that would bl= ow
> fast enough to catch all potential momentary glitches which might
> harm a delicate receiver. Surely someone here has a better idea!

> Reversing the amp and antenna connections should not cause the
> problem in and of itself. Reversing those connections combined with > failure of the relay to switch would but in that case you probably
> shouldn't have been receiving anything earlier in the night since<= br> > the antenna would never have been connected to the receiver.

> I don't see how delayed relay switching would have caused your
> problem (unless the connections were in fact reversed) but exactly
> how is this configured? Does the U3S switch on the DC-DC converter
> or does the DC-DC converter run all the time with the U3S simply
> energizing the relay from it? I'm wondering about start-up time fo= r
> the converter...

> Good luck with it. I personally don't like using the transmit
> antenna for receiving as it slams way too high a level into the
> receiver, leading to possible overload issues. I suppose you could
> use an attenuator.

> Even with a dedicated and small receiving antenna it's wise to
> provide some sort of overload protection for the receiver. I
> measured 250mW coming down the line from my LNV while transmitting
> on LF with 200 watts! Not good! Here the protection is extremely
> crude, a pair of back to back diodes across the receiver input. That > has protected my receiver but causes its own set of issues.
> Unfortunately I don't have a better solution that works at LF.

> Paul



> On 04/16/2018 06:24 AM, Chris Wilson wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hello=C2=A0 LF'ers,
>>
>> After=C2=A0 an=C2=A0 expensive=C2=A0 accident whereby my home brew= antenna change over
>> relay=C2=A0 put=C2=A0 nearly=C2=A0 a=C2=A0 kW=C2=A0 of=C2=A0 RF up= the RX antenna jack of my Kenwood
>> TS-590=C2=A0 i want to safely long term test the relay. It may hav= e been my
>> lack=C2=A0 of=C2=A0 foresight=C2=A0 in using two identical N type = sockets for the amp
>> input=C2=A0 and=C2=A0 the=C2=A0 antenna=C2=A0 on the relay box and= they got reversed...The
>> relay is a Russian
>> http://qro-parts.com/product_info.php?product= s_id=3D102
>>
>> It=C2=A0 needs 24V to reliably change, that is sourced from 12V vi= a a DC to
>> DC=C2=A0 converter=C2=A0 that=C2=A0 is=C2=A0 energised via a safel= y long delay from my U3S
>> exciter so TX is delayed 100mS=C2=A0 =C2=A0It's connected like= this:
>>
>>
>>=C2=A0 The output of my 1 kW amplifier to NO connection and receive= r to NC
>>=C2=A0 connection of the same relay, with COM port to antenna), the= n
>>=C2=A0 de-energized I'd always be in RX mode and energized I= 9;d be in TX mode
>>=C2=A0 and there's no way the TX should ever be connected to th= e RX no
>>=C2=A0 matter what failed. (Theoretically! I am not sure what rever= sing the
>>=C2=A0 amp and antenna connections may have caused, but I am concer= ned some
>>=C2=A0 other issue caused the RF to appear on the RX port....) I do= n't think
>>=C2=A0 the=C2=A0 pre=C2=A0 LPF voltages from the amp would be too h= igh for this relay,
>>=C2=A0 but=C2=A0 can't=C2=A0 be=C2=A0 1005=C2=A0 sure=C2=A0 of= =C2=A0 this given what occurred. In any case
>>=C2=A0 there's=C2=A0 also a 40 Amp 24V automotive "safety = relay" that grounds the RX output jack
>>=C2=A0 when=C2=A0 in=C2=A0 TX=C2=A0 mode. The failure of this to pr= otect the TS-590 further
>>=C2=A0 suggests=C2=A0 I=C2=A0 might=C2=A0 have=C2=A0 had=C2=A0 the= =C2=A0 antenna=C2=A0 and amplifier connectors
>>=C2=A0 reversed,=C2=A0 although it all worked fine until the early = hours when the
>>=C2=A0 WSPR spots ceased and I found the bad news.
>>
>> Anyway, I need a "something" to put across the RX antenn= a output BNC
>> socket that wil blow or somehow tell tale if RF is injected there.= I
>> don't have a high power enough dummy load other than a huge wa= ter
>> cooled 10kW Bird one which means flowing mains water through it to= an
>> outside gutter overnight or longer. My none water cooled one won&#= 39;t
>> take high power for long at all. If a FET blows in the amp I can >> swallow that, rather than my current Red Pitaya receiver getting R= F up
>> it :) So what could I put across the jack instead of a receiver th= at
>> will tell tale anything nasty happening during a prolonged test >> please? Thanks.




--
Best regards,
=C2=A0Chris=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mailto:dead.fets@gmail.com


--f403045c1d8c4eeda0056a00bb81--