Message-ID: <1158B03EED994922A8AA816DB276B343@DELL4>
From: <jrusgrove@comcast.net>
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
References: <162a4797468-1db9-bdf2@webjas-vae168.srv.aolmail.net> <1UQROqZht1.1c1VdzC0S69@optiplex980-pc> <f5cdf11c-819e-a83d-15cd-9590f7a07194@n1bug.com> <DM__180409110420_14031131174@smtp.eclipse.co.uk> <3a0c0669-018b-13a7-b56b-dd3f63fab464@n1bug.com> <197556217.20180409124931@gmail.com> <37574432-b72e-f2d1-0e85-af19dd970817@n1bug.com> <4D19B3707137430CBE04857FBA5C80B1@gnat> <E588340043AD4309B637D8ED22DE201D@DELL4> <1b882ae9-fede-3ec4-256e-9b068d3acf99@n1bug.com> <1539CCA16B9A4092972CB000BE4C440A@DELL4>
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 13:56:14 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: LF: W1VD amp help - more waveforms
Content-Type: text/plain;
	format=flowed;
	charset="UTF-8";
	reply-type=response
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org

Paul

One other quick observation ... the leads of the thick film snubber resistors that go to ground are 
rather long. It's probably not visible in the photo of mine, but the milled circuit board 'pocket' 
has the copper ground plane close to the body of the resistor. Try sticking a small piece of circuit 
board or copper strap in there to make a wide connection to the ground plane. May not matter much 
... but we're trying to eliminate all possibile problems.

Jay W1VD

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <jrusgrove@comcast.net>
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2018 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: LF: W1VD amp help - more waveforms


> Paul
>
> Thanks for the photos and information. I was more interested in the superimposed gate waveforms 
> than the drains, though. A pix of the LPF as well would be appreciated ... think there was one 
> last week. Just for the record ... my doubler was never mounted inside the amplifier ... so you 
> are covering new ground with that. I would think having it external to the amplifier would be less 
> problematic. For testing, stick to driving it with the HP3325A for now ... which is what you're 
> most likely already doing.
>
> Can't find much fault with the construction ... other than the somewhat loose primary winding on 
> the transformer. In mine, the primary winding was nestled inbetween the turns of the secondary. 
> This is important to minimize leakage reactance ... which also contributes to excessive ringing.
>
> Think I would continue to concentrate on getting the ringing down before going to high power.
>
> One other thing ... have you double checked that you have the correct capacitance in the LPF?
>
> Jay W1VD
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "N1BUG" <paul@n1bug.com>
> To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2018 11:34 AM
> Subject: Re: LF: W1VD amp help - more waveforms
>
>
>> Yep, voltage breakdown of the FETs was my worry. However I may be
>> making a false assumption. I assumed the voltage spikes in the
>> ringing would vary linearly with applied drain voltage? Perhaps that
>> isn't necessarily so?
>>
>> With 13V on the drains the first spike here is 'about' 64V.
>>
>> Efficiency seems fine. I wouldn't try to put an exact figure to it
>> what with measurement accuracy in three places (voltage, current, RF
>> power) but it 'appears' to be in the mid 90s.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> On 04/09/2018 11:02 AM, jrusgrove@comcast.net wrote:
>>> Alan
>>>
>>> The main concern about the ringing is that the positive extreme stays below the drain source
>>> breakdown voltage ... with some 'headroom'. Otherwise ...
>>>
>>> Jay W1VD
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Alan Melia" <alan.melia@btinternet.com>
>>> To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2018 10:21 AM
>>> Subject: Re: LF: W1VD amp help - more waveforms
>>>
>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>> I think you need to step back from this a little. One point, design/cable routing at 137kHz is
>>>> normally not that critical and it is unlikely it is having much effect. Many us have 
>>>> ''haywired''
>>>> PAs at these frequencies without major troubles....even using croc-leads!!
>>>>
>>>> You are unhappy about the drain waveforms.......why?? the ringing is on the ''off'' device and 
>>>> so
>>>> doesnt really matter in terms of efficiency. Consider what is happening. The FET drive goes off
>>>> and the drain current starts to drop inductance in the drain feed causes the voltage to rise to
>>>> try to keep the current flowing. Then on top of this the other transistor switches on and the
>>>> transformer connection for the off side sees a rising induced voltage out of the transformer.
>>>> There is bound to be overshoot but it does not absorb much power. It may be the generous ''dead
>>>> zone'' (whilst a good idea) that is producing this picture.
>>>>
>>>> The critical part is the the flat zero volt line when the FET is on. The current pulse rings a
>>>> bit, but the current drops in the second half of the pulse.....why?? This, I think, is really 
>>>> the
>>>> loss of power. Does Jay's show this? The point I am making is don't get drawn up blind alleys
>>>> because a trace just does not look ''pretty''.
>>>>
>>>> I think we have mentioned this before but the transient performance of the power supply may be 
>>>> a
>>>> factor. There should not be great changes in the current draw because you are switching the PSU
>>>> load from one transistor to the other but there can be higher speed transients that can affect
>>>> power supply regulators in unexpected ways.
>>>>
>>>> As Andy said efficiency at 12v is not very meaningful because of the high rds of these FETs. It 
>>>> is
>>>> usefull to run up a PA at low volts say for safety when the antenna needs to be tuned.
>>>>
>>>> Finally the scope probes are placing an. albeit small, capacitance across the drains (I am
>>>> assuming they are correctly trimmed) The waveform can often be affected by where the ground is
>>>> picked up from.
>>>>
>>>> Stick with it because you are close to being ''there''
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>> G3NYK
>>
>
>