Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id w15JZuu9015920 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2018 20:35:59 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1eimTR-0001S0-Ez for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Feb 2018 19:30:41 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1eimTQ-0001Rr-TA for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Feb 2018 19:30:40 +0000 Received: from mail-pg0-x22d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22d]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eimTM-00027h-QN for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Feb 2018 19:30:39 +0000 Received: by mail-pg0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id o13so19434725pgs.2 for ; Mon, 05 Feb 2018 11:30:36 -0800 (PST) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=XTCIQRIMilxjT/7OBFF6kg7mV5qGLuj/mSK0QO2c9uA=; b=Fwfy5K4Zalf6FDzPFRwmk8C1C8wDS9euNPxl+8RFuftHWQ3PTbksY0b8VmFk7QYIB5 doDU5Dpxg5FJSifuCH3nafYYWPvq1HDGkNMHbd1BXCY8/nMN8CfRMt6eaRZWBF/DH2xz yCwoDa3nb7ZW4KEHR+fHqX1mQehWAwguc4lJZtX1JZvXgYCb9tXlh5URKlTitVAtv0vM rf1yiALlJyDho1IE/vD2WA0QxbzwKM7/h2MPvxdqdqzX6osczFP9A8DEYZoG/7OFH8sl ePs+sI7QOWbdDSaOocmi4LFfBqpNM0MMGdLq4JhHL0yB2ezdFcXAosKw3kqPLshFFxNF aJoQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=XTCIQRIMilxjT/7OBFF6kg7mV5qGLuj/mSK0QO2c9uA=; b=ZbGvb9jVG8xrtGlVqPQriM7Bh1mL2pIh/PN2uruq7Ci4wGbq3fYcY3w+NSPbBv4m/i mznhHPIPbZ32lWgAR4IjOErFQBb1p2cM9AIr4/qQ3fdSU4vYEye+bYxn6eHfJ3P9tKUF C/8FNPCzgX0+qeqxZoV9V7Ia1PcIfQJSfdWhbtw2n99H8wVn4X0uEXmpVsPfW07GMMZZ 5ATHtgt+0p1iVkp4ECPFP+gBxjv5u2yp6hgt5DgDHNwKCXASPmP05B10VQuED4wXHzuW 8/5bPPggV59n08B4e1cwZ5IrRhUFol+I39R4piQYje2gtxA9JCNhp1W6gKDLP42K9DIx cCdw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytf7ulNtLJtugTgc27RgwT1S1v0gytP5DKUgookD0S7Yjt7DvPyO rPKXWUqKLy/0DR0QbucpYmx1cpr4hXiq7dxwJms= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x226+az5ov5sLq8gTibiYosIDbY9vmhJRmRSq1BwKIW/pKbsOKfg4stNnPMNa1IAMFLE3gb8bYWA1LISS2nPfy2Q= X-Received: by 10.99.154.73 with SMTP id e9mr36411196pgo.26.1517859033895; Mon, 05 Feb 2018 11:30:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.224.137 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Feb 2018 11:30:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.224.137 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Feb 2018 11:30:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5A78A2D6.7000407@posteo.de> References: <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB9AB485D3@servigilant.vigilant.local> <5A7377F7.4050802@posteo.de> <017101d39bab$2f0e3710$8d2aa530$@comcast.net> <23159F1ED5BD49AD9654CE5685AFACF6@Clemens0811> <5A75EA08.9090009@posteo.de> <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB9AB4958F@servigilant.vigilant.local> <5A78A2D6.7000407@posteo.de> From: Juan Leandro Ronda Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 20:30:33 +0100 Message-ID: To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Stefan, A piece is better. I have mixed copper and brass union nuts. The reason is for the space it occupies when passing through underground cavities, there are very narrow passages. I have not observed losses in the inductance, but the MKP / FKP capacitors are heated and I have a drift in the tuning. They have to go through them the 100A. In just one turn, 85Vp is already produced. Now I am using capacitors NP0 in SMD, it is incredible the behavior before the great tension and amperage, they have the disadvantage of having limit of high values ​​of capacity. I want to perform a test with Luis orienting the loop to his antenna, we are 49 km away, but he always has a lot of noise at 38KHz. [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (juanleronda[at]gmail.com) 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 02fbdf14bbe7f9c8a20960f29cc80a6d Subject: Re: LF: VLF Small magnetic antenna for Tx Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403043e6cb488d8e905647c18fd" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNSAFE, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false --f403043e6cb488d8e905647c18fd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stefan, A piece is better. I have mixed copper and brass union nuts. The reason is for the space it occupies when passing through underground cavities, there are very narrow passages. I have not observed losses in the inductance, but the MKP / FKP capacitors are heated and I have a drift in the tuning. They have to go through them the 100A. In just one turn, 85Vp is already produced. Now I am using capacitors NP0 in SMD, it is incredible the behavior before the great tension and amperage, they have the disadvantage of having limit of high values =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8Bof capacity. = I want to perform a test with Luis orienting the loop to his antenna, we are 49 km away, but he always has a lot of noise at 38KHz. Regards Juan Leandro El 5 feb. 2018 19:33, "DK7FC" escribi=C3=B3: > Interesting. > I built a similar loop and transmitted on MF. The maximum power was about > 30 W RF because the resonating Cs (WIMA-FKP-1, 2kV) became warm and the > resonance drifted away. But i managed up to 450 km distance with that > compact antenna. > > You loop may become more effective when using a single piece of copper. > Don't you have such 'endless' tubes available? Like this one: > https://www.hornbach.de/shop/Kupferrohr-weich-22-mm- > Wandstaerke-1-mm-Meterware/3308518/artikel.html > > 73, Stefan > > > Am 05.02.2018 15:13, schrieb Juan Leandro Ronda: > > I have to say that I am also lacking in theory, but the tests carried > out on airborne and core coils have been successful and are working. > The most relevant loop antenna has been an octagon-shaped loop, formed by > 22mm diameter copper pipe of 1mm thickness, equivalent to 66mm square, > forming a surface of 1m square. As seen in the attached diagram, I put in > resonance by LC series (38400Hz) giving close to 100A, which in turn give= s > a magnetic moment of 100A per square meter. I verify that in the center o= f > the octagon I am condensing enough the magnetic flux, knowing that it is > very difficult to saturate the air. In summer I get to notice heating of > the pipe. If I bring a euro coin to the pipe, it heats up and diverts the > antenna's resonance. > Then I was forced to reduce the volume of the antenna for comfortable use > in underground cavities. I had to resort to using cores to keep an > effective area as large as possible. I tried what I had at hand, the coil= s > of the TV deflection coils and I observed good operation, I also circulat= ed > a large amperage for it, giving rise to the development of a new > transmitter for radiolocation, it is the Summer, published in the CREG > JOURNAL n=C2=BA99 " of the BCRA. > I have always wanted to use the power through low voltage and a lot of > amperage, which will translate into great magnetic moment. It is necessar= y > to use few loops in the loop, with a large section of the conductor and a > high magnetic permeability core to increase the effective area. I also > intend to minimize the tensions in the resonant circuit, there are partne= rs > who can suffer electrocution risk, since the equipment works at one hundr= ed > percent humidity and other times submerged. > So far I have changed the cores of the air antennas for ferrites, and now > I would like to use mu-metal that has very high magnetic permeability. I > see hard to get that material. I have seen that they manufacture rods of > several cm in diameter. It would be interesting to contact the manufactur= er > and ask for samples, if someone sees it feasible to say something about i= t. > I have always worked in the near field for the use of radiolocation, and > speaking with Luis EA5DOM, we discussed the effectiveness of using the > electric field or the magnetic field with air, knowing that it is the > magnetic that crosses the rocky pack more easily . I appreciate the > comments on this part by this group. > > https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=3D1V4K2T2e3ActVqPaHr1xXLcjBkD16NtG= B > > > Regards > Juan Leandro > > El 4 feb. 2018 8:35 p. m., "Juan Leandro Ronda" > escribi=C3=B3: > >> I have to say that I am also lacking in theory, but the tests carrie= d >> out on airborne and core coils have been successful and are working. >> The most relevant loop antenna has been an octagon-shaped loop, formed b= y >> 22mm diameter copper pipe of 1mm thickness, equivalent to 66mm square, >> forming a surface of 1m square. As seen in the attached diagram, I put i= n >> resonance by LC series (38400Hz) giving close to 100A, which in turn giv= es >> a magnetic moment of 100A per square meter. I verify that in the center = of >> the octagon I am condensing enough the magnetic flux, knowing that it is >> very difficult to saturate the air. In summer I get to notice heating of >> the pipe. If I bring a euro coin to the pipe, it heats up and diverts th= e >> antenna's resonance. >> Then I was forced to reduce the volume of the antenna for comfortable us= e >> in underground cavities. I had to resort to using cores to keep an >> effective area as large as possible. I tried what I had at hand, the coi= ls >> of the TV deflection coils and I observed good operation, I also circula= ted >> a large amperage for it, giving rise to the development of a new >> transmitter for radiolocation, it is the Summer, published in the CREG >> JOURNAL n=C2=BA99 " of the BCRA. >> I have always wanted to use the power through low voltage and a lot of >> amperage, which will translate into great magnetic moment. It is necessa= ry >> to use few loops in the loop, with a large section of the conductor and = a >> high magnetic permeability core to increase the effective area. I also >> intend to minimize the tensions in the resonant circuit, there are partn= ers >> who can suffer electrocution risk, since the equipment works at one hund= red >> percent humidity and other times submerged. >> So far I have changed the cores of the air antennas for ferrites, and no= w >> I would like to use mu-metal that has very high magnetic permeability. I >> see hard to get that material. I have seen that they manufacture rods of >> several cm in diameter. It would be interesting to contact the manufactu= rer >> and ask for samples, if someone sees it feasible to say something about = it. >> I have always worked in the near field for the use of radiolocation, and >> speaking with Luis EA5DOM, we discussed the effectiveness of using the >> electric field or the magnetic field with air, knowing that it is the >> magnetic that crosses the rocky pack more easily . I appreciate the >> comments on this part by this group. >> >> Regards >> Juan Leandro >> >> >> El 3 feb. 2018 21:35, "Jacek Lipkowski" escribi= =C3=B3: >> >> On Sat, 3 Feb 2018, VIGILANT Luis Fern=C3=A1ndez wrote: >> >> Jacek, you mentioned what I was midnight oiling here >>> " If you want some semi-DX in the H-field, then try coupling into some >>> long >>> conductors (pipes, power lines, railway tracks etc)" >>> >> >> And i forgot phone lines :) >> >> Actually there has been a 700m phone line, that was well grounded at the >> phone exchange (old exchange, no local modules were used, so the wire we= nt >> all the way there). This makes a nice ground dipole when a transmitter i= s >> placed between the local ground and the grounded wire from the phone lin= e. >> Putting abt. 30mA at 8.97kHz (this was when 9kHz was the ITU limit) gav= e a >> very nice signal 600-700m from the phone line. >> >> >> What about coupling the loop to my 90m vertical ? >>> Adding another transformer from loop to vertical or just winding some >>> coils of the vertical over the >>> small loop ring would work ? >>> >> >> No, because the amount of current induced in the mast would be very smal= l. >> >> BTW i wish i had a 90m vertical. >> >> >> VY 73 >> >> Jacek / SQ5BPF >> >> >> --f403043e6cb488d8e905647c18fd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Stefan,=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0A piece is better. I have mixed copper and= brass union nuts. The reason is for the space it occupies when passing thr= ough underground cavities, there are very narrow passages. I have not obser= ved losses in the inductance, but the MKP / FKP capacitors are heated and I= have a drift in the tuning. They have to go through them the 100A. In just= one turn, 85Vp is already produced. Now I am using capacitors NP0 in SMD, = it is incredible the behavior before the great tension and amperage, they h= ave the disadvantage of having limit of high values =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8Bof ca= pacity. I want to perform a test with Luis orienting the loop to his antenn= a, we are 49 km away, but he always has a lot of noise at 38KHz.

Regards
Jua= n Leandro

El 5 feb. 2018 19:33, "DK7FC" <selberdenken@posteo.de> escribi=C3=B3:
=20 =20
Interesting.
I built a similar loop and transmitted on MF. The maximum power was about 30 W RF because the resonating Cs (WIMA-FKP-1, 2kV) became warm and the resonance drifted away. But i managed up to 450 km distance with that compact antenna.

You loop may become more effective when using a single piece of copper. Don't you have such 'endless' tubes available? Like this one: https://www.hornbach.de/shop/Kupferr= ohr-weich-22-mm-Wandstaerke-1-mm-Meterware/3308518/artikel.html

73, Stefan


Am 05.02.2018 15:13, schrieb Juan Leandro Ronda:
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 I have to say that I am also lacking in theory, but the tests carrie= d out on airborne and core coils have been successful and are working.
The most relevant loop antenna has been an octagon-shaped loop, formed by 22mm diameter copper pipe of 1mm thickness, equivalent to 66mm square, forming a surface of 1m square. As seen in the attached diagram, I put in resonance by LC series (38400Hz) giving close to 100A, which in turn gives a magnetic moment of 100A per square meter. I verify that in the center of the octagon I am condensing enough the magnetic flux, knowing that it is very difficult to saturate the air. In summer I get to notice heating of the pipe. If I bring a euro coin to the pipe, it heats up and diverts the antenna's resonance.
Then I was forced to reduce the volume of the antenna for comfortable use in underground cavities. I had to resort to using cores to keep an effective area as large as possible. I tried what I had at hand, the coils of the TV deflection coils and I observed good operation, I also circulated a large amperage for it, giving rise to the development of a new transmitter for radiolocation, it is the Summer, published in the CREG JOURNAL n=C2=BA99 " of the BCRA.
I have always wanted to use the power through low voltage and a lot of amperage, which will translate into great magnetic moment. It is necessary to use few loops in the loop, with a large section of the conductor and a high magnetic permeability core to increase the effective area. I also intend to minimize the tensions in the resonant circuit, there are partners who can suffer electrocution risk, since the equipment works at one hundred percent humidity and other times submerged.
So far I have changed the cores of the air antennas for ferrites, and now I would like to use mu-metal that has very high magnetic permeability. I see hard to get that material. I have seen that they manufacture rods of several cm in diameter. It would be interesting to contact the manufacturer and ask for samples, if someone sees it feasible to say something about it.
I have always worked in the near field for the use of radiolocation, and speaking with Luis EA5DOM, we discussed the effectiveness of using the electric field or the magnetic field with air, knowing that it is the magnetic that crosses the rocky pack more easily . I appreciate the comments on this part by this group.


Regar= ds
Juan Leandro

El 4 feb. 2018 8:35 p. m., "Juan Leandro Ronda" <= juanleronda@gmail.com> escribi=C3=B3:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I have to say that I am also lacking in= theory, but the tests carried out on airborne and core coils have been successful and are working.
The most relevant loop antenna has been an octagon-shaped loop, formed by 22mm diameter copper pipe of 1mm thickness, equivalent to 66mm square, forming a surface of 1m square. As seen in the attached diagram, I put in resonance by LC series (38400Hz) giving close to 100A, which in turn gives a magnetic moment of 100A per square meter. I verify that in the center of the octagon I am condensing enough the magnetic flux, knowing that it is very difficult to saturate the air. In summer I get to notice heating of the pipe. If I bring a euro coin to the pipe, it heats up and diverts the antenna's resonance.
Then I was forced to reduce the volume of the antenna for comfortable use in underground cavities. I had to resort to using cores to keep an effective area as large as possible. I tried what I had at hand, the coils of the TV deflection coils and I observed good operation, I also circulated a large amperage for it, giving rise to the development of a new transmitter for radiolocation, it is the Summer, published in the CREG JOURNAL n=C2=BA99 " of the BCRA.
I have always wanted to use the power through low voltage and a lot of amperage, which will translate into great magnetic moment. It is necessary to use few loops in the loop, with a large section of the conductor and a high magnetic permeability core to increase the effective area. I also intend to minimize the tensions in the resonant circuit, there are partners who can suffer electrocution risk, since the equipment works at one hundred percent humidity and other times submerged.
So far I have changed the cores of the air antennas for ferrites, and now I would like to use mu-metal that has very high magnetic permeability. I see hard to get that material. I have seen that they manufacture rods of several cm in diameter. It would be interesting to contact the manufacturer and ask for samples, if someone sees it feasible to say something about it.
I have always worked in the near field for the use of radiolocation, and speaking with Luis EA5DOM, we discussed the effectiveness of using the electric field or the magnetic field with air, knowing that it is the magnetic that crosses the rocky pack more easily . I appreciate the comments on this part by this group.

Regards
Juan Leandro


El 3 feb. 2018 21:35, "Jacek Lipkowski&= quot; <sq5bpf@lipkow= ski.org> escribi=C3=B3:
On Sat, 3 Feb 2018, VIGILANT Luis Fern=C3=A1ndez wrote:

Jacek, you mentioned what I was midnight oiling here
" If you want some semi-DX in the H-field, then try coupling into some long
conductors (pipes, power lines, railway tracks etc)"

And i forgot phone lines :)

Actually there has been a 700m phone line, that was well grounded at the phone exchange (old exchange, no local modules were used, so the wire went all the way there). This makes a nice ground dipole when a transmitter is placed between the local ground and the grounded wire from the phone line. Putting abt.=C2=A0 30mA at 8.97kHz (this was when 9kHz was the ITU limit) gave a very nice signal 600-700m from the phone line.


What about coupling the loop to my 90m vertical ?
Adding another transformer from loop to vertical or just winding some coils of the vertical over the
small loop ring would work ?

No, because the amount of current induced in the mast would be very small.

BTW i wish i had a 90m vertical.


VY 73

Jacek / SQ5BPF

--f403043e6cb488d8e905647c18fd--