Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id w1QEeM15002002 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:40:25 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1eqJs5-0002QA-LE for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 14:35:17 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1eqJs2-0002Px-6X for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 14:35:14 +0000 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eqJrv-0004XQ-Jn for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 14:35:12 +0000 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A8F420FC9 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:35:04 +0100 (CET) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=posteo.de Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.de; s=2017; t=1519655704; bh=YhhioS6y2I260LSKONhG6fhptpM7tOdAJTEsNUHkFqg=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=Kt3Tj9BowghDDQsgzI9CB7HNvGPuMP1+B0n1yJgcpvssugGfJT64an0M8NKeFn24c b4b8YMdS7VCQpISu9a3sQZmp0TT2lTiowhjgCNV0hTDuriydf/Fw0+/AYwx69kWR+O Z1c8cELtNH4mG0g02V0gAYRrNaQ69WYuicjIYcQ8BxCRpJfzc2azESe1Q1fyRsOsue YulKZTgfNqtxrKA5qiV4SRlGRLlA3RdIHE/kApXDqz2E8g6aiOgFutGUp9PUE6Qxl1 4trfHLtpncoUiEbr+TzPSfTcKh4t3cCPIQI/u9alMMifXqxYMrN9b/kHelgsMgJ2Zr XCwOST+VHMskA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 3zqkr20lsfz9rxh for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:34:57 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <5A941B0F.3050804@posteo.de> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:34:55 +0100 From: DK7FC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <1UQOBAX9Wi.5GpBpi86BpG@optiplex980-pc> <161ce6c803f-1564-19878@webjas-vab234.srv.aolmail.net> <024d01d3aeb2$52a23450$f7e69cf0$@comcast.net> <5A93F0AF.7040503@posteo.de> <028501d3af0c$34211cd0$9c635670$@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <028501d3af0c$34211cd0$9c635670$@comcast.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Jim, Yes but the messages from VO1NA took much longer to decode at limilar distances. I don't know exactly, i think it was something between 4...6 days to produce a decode at DL0AO ? But that was with a longer TX period and in the deep winter. Not to think about the local noise differences and antenna directivity... Jay uses a pure omni-directional E field probe whereas DL0AO used a software combined cardioid antenna pointing to EW exactly. In the end there are some uncertainties which makes it hard to determine the actual E-W/W-E attenuation. But it looks like something between 10...20 dB is a good estimate. [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID BODY: Test for Invalidly Named or Formatted Colors in HTML 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: e6c92eae0691cda9a013e367ab60737d Subject: Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success! Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030004040203030609080108" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030004040203030609080108 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jim, Yes but the messages from VO1NA took much longer to decode at limilar distances. I don't know exactly, i think it was something between 4...6 days to produce a decode at DL0AO ? But that was with a longer TX period and in the deep winter. Not to think about the local noise differences and antenna directivity... Jay uses a pure omni-directional E field probe whereas DL0AO used a software combined cardioid antenna pointing to EW exactly. In the end there are some uncertainties which makes it hard to determine the actual E-W/W-E attenuation. But it looks like something between 10...20 dB is a good estimate. Depending on the time it needs to produce a lucky 5 character decode at W1VD, i will soon move to 17.47 kHz again to start experimenting with Edgar in VK7, just a path of 16805 km (http://k7fry.com/grid/?qth=QE37PD35&from=jn49ik00wd). Then at night we can try to transfer a message to W1VD at 17.47 kHz to see the difference of the attenuation. The old graphs suggest a big difference but i bet it is not much, maybe 6 dB. 73, Stefan Am 26.02.2018 15:15, schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net: > > Stefan, > > Thank you for the reminder. All of the permeable-core > selection/placement and winding improvements come to mind when you > mention that number. > > Correcting the sentence below: “(ERP ratio 16dB)…offset a nominal > E-W/W-E attenuation ratio (9 dB EW/WE ratio for 6Mm path) by 7dB. > > Excellent ERP, and glad that Markus pointed out the quantitative > consistency of same-month E-W and W-E link results with > non-reciprocity at 8270 Hz. > > 73, > > Jim AA5BW > > *From:* owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] *On Behalf Of *DK7FC > *Sent:* Monday, February 26, 2018 6:34 AM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Subject:* Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success! > > Thanks Jim, > > ERP is 400 uW. Often discussed but my statement here :-) > > 73, Stefan > > Am 26.02.2018 04:31, schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net: > > > Congratulations Jay and Stefan, and thanks Markus for the perspectives > and reference points. I have a rough recollection of Stefan’s > estimated ERP, which would seem to slightly more than offset a nominal > E-W/W-E attenuation ratio, making Markus’ two propagation observations > particularly interesting, as is the Forest question. > > Fine work Stefan and Jay. > > 73, > > Jim AA5BW > > *From:* owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > > [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] *On Behalf Of *Markus Vester > *Sent:* Sunday, February 25, 2018 2:25 PM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Subject:* Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success! > > Hi Jay, Stefan, > > really good work, truly amazing! > > Noticing that Stefan hadn't sent another repeat last > night 24/25th, I wondered whether the experiment might have already > been concluded successfully - yes it had ;-) > > Considering that Joe has been making the TA W-E path with only 10 uW, > in retrospective it seems not so surprising that Stefan's much > stronger signal managed to overcome the E-W nonreciprocity. On the > other hand, when Uwe had sent a very long carrier in March 2014, > no conclusive trace was ever detected in Virginia. Now I wonder > whether Stefan's recent transmission has also been picked up in Forest? > > All the best, > Markus (DF6NM) > > > -----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung----- > Von: jrusgrove > > An: (rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > ) > > Verschickt: So, 25. Feb 2018 19:26 > Betreff: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success! > > > Stefans transmission: > > *f = 8270.1000 Hz** > *Start time: 19.FEB.2018 22:30:00 UTC (daily)* > *Symbol period: 30 s* > *Characters: 2* > *CRC bits: 22* > *Coding 16K21A* > *Duration: 07:12 [hh:mm]* > *Antenna current: 700 mA** > > After a successful one character reception earlier in the week, we can > now report the successful reception of a 2 character message. Stacking > of 3 transmissions was required (0221, 0222 and 0223). There is also > a 0224 file but it has timing issues and may or may not be usable. > > ebnaut-rx V0.8 > input file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223.wav > sample rate 0.457240 per second > rx frequency 8270 > file start time 2018-02-22 22:21:17.790 > polynomial 16K21A > crc size 22 > number of chars 2 > block size 34 > symbol period 30.000 > number of symbols 864 > start offset 537.000 > freq offset 0.100000 > cores 2 > list length 500000 > skipped 538.011261 seconds to start > initial reference phase 30.6 > --------------------------------------------- > found DX > list rank 48426 > reference phase 150,150,150,150 > carrier S/N 11.04 dB in 38.6 uHz, -33.10 dB in 1Hz, -67.08 dB in 2.5kHz > carrier Es/N0 -18.33 dB > carrier Eb/N0 0.47 dB > info bit period 2273.68 seconds > symbol error rate 373/864 = 43.171 % > Es/N0 from symbol errors -18.2 dB > Eb/N0 from symbol errors 0.6 dB > Shannon capacity 2.5 bits/hour > Shannon efficiency 62.7 % > symbols file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223-symbols.csv > elapsed 52 seconds > --------------------------------------------- > found DX > list rank 17074 > reference phase 120,150,120,150 > carrier S/N 11.19 dB in 38.6 uHz, -32.94 dB in 1Hz, -66.92 dB in 2.5kHz > carrier Es/N0 -18.17 dB > carrier Eb/N0 0.62 dB > info bit period 2273.68 seconds > symbol error rate 374/864 = 43.287 % > Es/N0 from symbol errors -18.4 dB > Eb/N0 from symbol errors 0.4 dB > Shannon capacity 2.6 bits/hour > Shannon efficiency 60.5 % > symbols file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223-symbols.csv > elapsed 383 seconds > > Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2 > --------------030004040203030609080108 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jim,

Yes but the messages from VO1NA took much longer to decode at limilar distances. I don't know exactly, i think it was something between 4...6 days to produce a decode at DL0AO ?
But that was with a longer TX period and in the deep winter. Not to think about the local noise differences and antenna directivity... Jay uses a pure omni-directional E field probe whereas DL0AO used a software combined cardioid antenna pointing to EW exactly.
In the end there are some uncertainties which makes it hard to determine the actual E-W/W-E attenuation. But it looks like something between 10...20 dB is a good estimate.

Depending on the time it needs to produce a lucky 5 character decode at W1VD, i will soon move to 17.47 kHz again to start experimenting with Edgar in VK7, just a path of 16805 km (http://k7fry.com/grid/?qth=QE37PD35&from=jn49ik00wd).
Then at night we can try to transfer a message to W1VD at 17.47 kHz to see the difference of the attenuation. The old graphs suggest a big difference but i bet it is not much, maybe 6 dB.

73, Stefan



Am 26.02.2018 15:15, schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net:

Stefan,

 

Thank you for the reminder. All of the permeable-core selection/placement and winding improvements come to mind when you mention that number.

 

Correcting the sentence below: “(ERP ratio 16dB)…offset a nominal E-W/W-E attenuation ratio (9 dB EW/WE ratio for 6Mm path) by 7dB.

 

Excellent ERP, and glad that Markus pointed out the quantitative consistency of same-month E-W and W-E link results with non-reciprocity at 8270 Hz.

 

73,

 

Jim AA5BW

 

    

 

From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of DK7FC
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2018 6:34 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success!

 

Thanks Jim,

ERP is 400 uW. Often discussed but my statement here :-)

73, Stefan

Am 26.02.2018 04:31, schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net:

Congratulations Jay and Stefan, and thanks Markus for the perspectives and reference points. I have a rough recollection of Stefan’s estimated ERP, which would seem to slightly more than offset a nominal E-W/W-E attenuation ratio, making Markus’ two propagation observations particularly interesting, as is the Forest question.

 

Fine work Stefan and Jay.

 

73,

 

Jim AA5BW   

 

From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Markus Vester
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 2:25 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success!

 

Hi Jay, Stefan,

really good work, truly amazing!

Noticing that Stefan hadn't sent another repeat last night 24/25th, I wondered whether the experiment might have already been concluded successfully - yes it had ;-)

Considering that Joe has been making the TA W-E path with only 10 uW, in retrospective it seems not so surprising that Stefan's much stronger signal managed to overcome the E-W nonreciprocity. On the other hand, when Uwe had sent a very long carrier in March 2014, no conclusive trace was ever detected in Virginia. Now I wonder whether Stefan's recent transmission has also been picked up in Forest?

All the best,
Markus (DF6NM)  


-----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: jrusgrove <jrusgrove@comcast.net>
An: (rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: So, 25. Feb 2018 19:26
Betreff: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success!


Stefans transmission:

 

f = 8270.1000 Hz
Start time: 19.FEB.2018  22:30:00 UTC (daily)
Symbol period: 30 s
Characters: 2
CRC bits: 22
Coding 16K21A
Duration: 07:12 [hh:mm]
Antenna current: 700 mA

 

After a successful one character reception earlier in the week, we can now report the successful reception of a 2 character message. Stacking of 3  transmissions was required (0221, 0222 and 0223). There is also a 0224 file but it has timing issues and may or may not be usable.

 

ebnaut-rx V0.8
input file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223.wav
sample rate 0.457240 per second
rx frequency 8270
file start time 2018-02-22 22:21:17.790
polynomial 16K21A
crc size 22
number of chars 2
block size 34
symbol period 30.000
number of symbols 864
start offset 537.000
freq offset 0.100000
cores 2
list length 500000
skipped 538.011261 seconds to start
initial reference phase 30.6
---------------------------------------------
found DX
list rank 48426
reference phase 150,150,150,150
carrier S/N 11.04 dB in 38.6 uHz, -33.10 dB in 1Hz, -67.08 dB in 2.5kHz
carrier Es/N0 -18.33 dB
carrier Eb/N0 0.47 dB
info bit period 2273.68 seconds
symbol error rate 373/864 = 43.171 %
Es/N0 from symbol errors -18.2 dB
Eb/N0 from symbol errors 0.6 dB
Shannon capacity 2.5 bits/hour
Shannon efficiency 62.7 %
symbols file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223-symbols.csv
elapsed 52 seconds
---------------------------------------------
found DX
list rank 17074
reference phase 120,150,120,150
carrier S/N 11.19 dB in 38.6 uHz, -32.94 dB in 1Hz, -66.92 dB in 2.5kHz
carrier Es/N0 -18.17 dB
carrier Eb/N0 0.62 dB
info bit period 2273.68 seconds
symbol error rate 374/864 = 43.287 %
Es/N0 from symbol errors -18.4 dB
Eb/N0 from symbol errors 0.4 dB
Shannon capacity 2.6 bits/hour
Shannon efficiency 60.5 %
symbols file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223-symbols.csv
elapsed 383 seconds

Jay W1VD  WD2XNS  WE2XGR/2

 

 

 

 

--------------030004040203030609080108--