Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id w1QINfRn002566 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 19:23:43 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1eqNCc-0002wa-U0 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 18:08:42 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1eqNCa-0002wR-0x for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 18:08:40 +0000 Received: from omr-a018e.mx.aol.com ([204.29.186.64]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eqNCU-0005ow-LI for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 18:08:38 +0000 Received: from mtaomg-aan01.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-aan01.mx.aol.com [172.27.19.79]) by omr-a018e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 16CAB38001E0 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 13:08:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from core-acb04a.mail.aol.com (core-acb04.mail.aol.com [172.27.24.4]) by mtaomg-aan01.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 6A124380069B8 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 13:08:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from 80.146.228.86 by webjas-vad223.srv.aolmail.net (10.96.35.226) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Mon, 26 Feb 2018 13:08:28 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 13:08:29 -0500 From: Markus Vester To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-Id: <161d34d36cd-155f-32c8d@webjas-vad223.srv.aolmail.net> In-Reply-To: <5A941B0F.3050804@posteo.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: JAS STD X-Originating-IP: [80.146.228.86] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20150623; t=1519668511; bh=7cjLyPv5PNO9bRbFhjUytvkIpWKIS5CuKohcdcqwkl4=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=YHWRYIFg+KxkjW/muMbEI9IYGbuVdnhPfX7GbdIw6K/4PDHQDmg6TLiU6KB7ZFG6l LasgnAXMaur+yT7OJXIV/G1cV7tqHhba7WpAyInQRoWLqWtq8xgMpcWmYY8gjgXUV1 eZRxapw0QQfVrJ2W1TFyK7dNKY1U+nAvnZiNbOiY= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1b134f5a944d1e3fb4 X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Well there were a few occasions of unstacked single-night decodes from VO1NA at DL0AO, "S" on Dec 23/24, and "V" on Dec 28/29 and 29/30. We were not successful with the daytime transmissions. The TX power ratio may be a bit less than 16 dB. I assume that both Joe and myself achieve around 10 uW radiated power ("EMRP"), whereas Stefan usually states "ERP" with reference to a dipole which is 1.83 times higher. Based on various receive comparisons, my best guess would be that DK7FC's antenna has around 16 m effective height, giving 150 uW EMRP (275 mW ERP), or about 12 dB more power for E-W. So considering other factors like receive antennas, results are probably consistent with a 9 dB nonreciprocity. [...] Content analysis details: (1.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (markusvester[at]aol.com) 0.0 T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID BODY: Test for Invalidly Named or Formatted Colors in HTML 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid 1.0 FREEMAIL_REPLY From and body contain different freemails X-Scan-Signature: 88a66a3f0f748d37a45cddfb36a535ad Subject: Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success! Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_240253_1495437265.1519668508364" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false ------=_Part_240253_1495437265.1519668508364 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well there were a few occasions of unstacked single-night decodes from VO1N= A at DL0AO, "S" on Dec 23/24, and "V" on Dec 28/29 and 29/30. We were not s= uccessful with the daytime transmissions. The TX power ratio may be a bit less than 16 dB. I assume that both Joe and= myself achieve around 10 uW radiated power ("EMRP"), whereas Stefan usuall= y states "ERP" with reference to a dipole which is 1.83 times higher. Based= on various receive comparisons, my best guess would be that DK7FC's antenn= a has around 16 m effective height, giving 150 uW EMRP (275 mW ERP), or abo= ut 12 dB more power for E-W. So considering other factors like receive ante= nnas, results are probably consistent with a 9 dB nonreciprocity. Best 73, Markus -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: DK7FC An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Mo, 26. Feb 2018 15:36 Betreff: Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success! Hi Jim,=20 Yes but the messages from VO1NA took much longer to decode at limilar dist= ances. I don't know exactly, i think it was something between 4...6 days to= produce a decode at DL0AO ?=20 But that was with a longer TX period and in the deep winter. Not to think = about the local noise differences and antenna directivity... Jay uses a pur= e omni-directional E field probe whereas DL0AO used a software combined car= dioid antenna pointing to EW exactly. In the end there are some uncertainties which makes it hard to determine t= he actual E-W/W-E attenuation. But it looks like something between 10...20 = dB is a good estimate. Depending on the time it needs to produce a lucky 5 character decode at W1= VD, i will soon move to 17.47 kHz again to start experimenting with Edgar i= n VK7, just a path of 16805 km (http://k7fry.com/grid/?qth=3DQE37PD35&from= =3Djn49ik00wd). Then at night we can try to transfer a message to W1VD at 17.47 kHz to see= the difference of the attenuation. The old graphs suggest a big difference= but i bet it is not much, maybe 6 dB. 73, Stefan Am 26.02.2018 15:15, schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net:=20 #AOLMsgPart_2_f73319d8-aa24-42f0-a305-da3e0b166cbb td{color: black;} @font-= face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}@font-face {font-= family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}.aolReplacedBody p.aolmail_Ms= oNormal,.aolReplacedBody li.aolmail_MsoNormal,.aolReplacedBody div.aolmail_= MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family= :"Times New Roman","serif"; color:black;}.aolReplacedBody a:link,.aolReplac= edBody span.aolmail_MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-d= ecoration:underline;}.aolReplacedBody a:visited,.aolReplacedBody span.aolma= il_MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decorati= on:underline;}.aolReplacedBody p.aolmail_MsoAcetate,.aolReplacedBody li.aol= mail_MsoAcetate,.aolReplacedBody div.aolmail_MsoAcetate {mso-style-priority= :99; mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char"; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt;= font-size:8.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:black;}.aolRepla= cedBody p.aolmail_aolreplacedbody,.aolReplacedBody li.aolmail_aolreplacedbo= dy,.aolReplacedBody div.aolmail_aolreplacedbody {mso-style-name:aolreplaced= body; margin:8.4pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"= ; color:black;}.aolReplacedBody span.aolmail_EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:p= ersonal; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;}.aolReplacedBod= y span.aolmail_BalloonTextChar {mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char"; mso-sty= le-priority:99; mso-style-link:"Balloon Text"; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-s= erif"; color:black;}.aolReplacedBody span.aolmail_EmailStyle22 {mso-style-t= ype:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;}.aol= ReplacedBody .aolmail_MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:= 10.0pt;}@page WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0= in;}.aolReplacedBody div.aolmail_WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;}=20 Stefan, =20 Thank you for the reminder. All of the permeable-core selection/placement a= nd winding improvements come to mind when you mention that number.=20 =20 Correcting the sentence below: =E2=80=9C(ERP ratio 16dB)=E2=80=A6offset a n= ominal E-W/W-E attenuation ratio (9 dB EW/WE ratio for 6Mm path) by 7dB. =20 Excellent ERP, and glad that Markus pointed out the quantitative consistenc= y of same-month E-W and W-E link results with non-reciprocity at 8270 Hz. =20 73, =20 Jim AA5BW=20 =20 =20 =20 From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacks= heep.org] On Behalf Of DK7FC Sent: Monday, February 26, 2018 6:34 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success! =20 Thanks Jim, ERP is 400 uW. Often discussed but my statement here :-) 73, Stefan Am 26.02.2018 04:31, schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net:=20 Congratulations Jay and Stefan, and thanks Markus for the perspectives and = reference points. I have a rough recollection of Stefan=E2=80=99s estimated= ERP, which would seem to slightly more than offset a nominal E-W/W-E atten= uation ratio, making Markus=E2=80=99 two propagation observations particula= rly interesting, as is the Forest question. =20 Fine work Stefan and Jay. =20 73, =20 Jim AA5BW =20 =20 From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacks= heep.org] On Behalf Of Markus Vester Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 2:25 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success! =20 Hi Jay, Stefan,=20 really good work, truly amazing!=20 Noticing that Stefan hadn't sent another repeat last night 24/25th, I wond= ered whether the experiment might have already been concluded successfully = - yes it had ;-) Considering that Joe has been making the TA W-E path with only 10 uW, in re= trospective it seems not so surprising that Stefan's much stronger signal m= anaged to overcome the E-W nonreciprocity. On the other hand, when Uwe had = sent a very long carrier in March 2014, no conclusive trace was ever detect= ed in Virginia. Now I wonder whether Stefan's recent transmission has also = been picked up in Forest? All the best, Markus (DF6NM) =20 -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: jrusgrove An: (rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) Verschickt: So, 25. Feb 2018 19:26 Betreff: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success! Stefans transmission: =20 f =3D 8270.1000 Hz Start time: 19.FEB.2018 22:30:00 UTC (daily) Symbol period: 30 s Characters: 2 CRC bits: 22 Coding 16K21A Duration: 07:12 [hh:mm] Antenna current: 700 mA =20 After a successful one character reception earlier in the week, we can now = report the successful reception of a 2 character message. Stacking of 3 tr= ansmissions was required (0221, 0222 and 0223). There is also a 0224 file b= ut it has timing issues and may or may not be usable.=20 =20 ebnaut-rx V0.8 input file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223.wav sample rate 0.457240 per second rx frequency 8270 file start time 2018-02-22 22:21:17.790 polynomial 16K21A crc size 22 number of chars 2 block size 34 symbol period 30.000 number of symbols 864 start offset 537.000 freq offset 0.100000 cores 2 list length 500000 skipped 538.011261 seconds to start initial reference phase 30.6 --------------------------------------------- found DX list rank 48426 reference phase 150,150,150,150 carrier S/N 11.04 dB in 38.6 uHz, -33.10 dB in 1Hz, -67.08 dB in 2.5kHz carrier Es/N0 -18.33 dB carrier Eb/N0 0.47 dB info bit period 2273.68 seconds symbol error rate 373/864 =3D 43.171 % Es/N0 from symbol errors -18.2 dB Eb/N0 from symbol errors 0.6 dB Shannon capacity 2.5 bits/hour Shannon efficiency 62.7 % symbols file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223-symbols.csv elapsed 52 seconds --------------------------------------------- found DX list rank 17074 reference phase 120,150,120,150 carrier S/N 11.19 dB in 38.6 uHz, -32.94 dB in 1Hz, -66.92 dB in 2.5kHz carrier Es/N0 -18.17 dB carrier Eb/N0 0.62 dB info bit period 2273.68 seconds symbol error rate 374/864 =3D 43.287 % Es/N0 from symbol errors -18.4 dB Eb/N0 from symbol errors 0.4 dB Shannon capacity 2.6 bits/hour Shannon efficiency 60.5 % symbols file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223-symbols.csv elapsed 383 seconds Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2 =20 =20 =20 ------=_Part_240253_1495437265.1519668508364 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well there were a few occasions of unstacked single-nigh= t decodes from VO1NA at DL0AO, "S" on Dec 23/24, and "V" on Dec 28/29 and 2= 9/30. We were not successful with the daytime transmissions.

The TX = power ratio may be a bit less than 16 dB. I assume that both Joe and myself=  achieve around 10 uW radiated power ("EMRP"), whereas Stefan usu= ally states "ERP" with reference to a dipole which is 1.83 times highe= r. Based on various receive comparisons, my best guess would be that&n= bsp;DK7FC's antenna has around 16 m effective height, giving=  150 uW EMRP (275 mW ERP), or about 12 dB more power for E-W.&nbs= p;So considering other factors like receive antennas, results are = ;probably consistent with a 9 dB nonreciprocity.

Best 73,
Ma= rkus

-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: DK7FC <selb= erdenken@posteo.de>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.or= g>
Verschickt: Mo, 26. Feb 2018 15:36
Betreff: Re: LF: VLF DK7FC &= gt; W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success!

Hi Jim,

Yes but the messages from VO1NA took much longer to decode at limilar distances. I don't know exactly, i think it was something between 4...6 days to produce a decode at DL0AO ?
But that was with a longer TX period and in the deep winter. Not to think about the local noise differences and antenna directivity... Jay uses a pure omni-directional E field probe whereas DL0AO used a software combined cardioid antenna pointing to EW exactly.
In the end there are some uncertainties which makes it hard to determine the actual E-W/W-E attenuation. But it looks like something between 10...20 dB is a good estimate.

Depending on the time it needs to produce a lucky 5 character decode at W1VD, i will soon move to 17.47 kHz again to start experimenting with Edgar in VK7, just a path of 16805 km (http://k7fry.com/grid/?qth=3DQE37PD35&from=3Djn49ik00wd).<= br> Then at night we can try to transfer a message to W1VD at 17.47 kHz to see the difference of the attenuation. The old graphs suggest a big difference but i bet it is not much, maybe 6 dB.

73, Stefan



Am 26.02.2018 15:15, schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net:
=20 =20

Stefan,

 

Thank you for the reminder. All of the permeable-core selection/placement and winding improvements come to mind when you mention that number.

 

Correcting the sentence below: =E2=80=9C(ERP ratio 16dB)=E2=80=A6offset a nominal E-W/W-E attenuation ratio (9 dB EW/WE ratio for 6Mm path) by 7dB.

 

Excellent ERP, and glad that Markus pointed out the quantitative consistency of same-month E-W and W-E link results with non-reciprocity at 8270 Hz.=

 

73,

 

Jim AA5BW

 

    

 

From: owner-r= sgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:ow= ner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of DK7FC
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2018 6:34 AM
To: = rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success!

 

Thanks Jim,

ERP is 400 uW. Often discussed but my statement here :-)

73, Stefan

Am 26.02.2018 04:31, schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net:

Congratulations Jay and Stefan, and thanks Markus for the perspectives and reference points. I have a rough recollection of Stefan=E2=80=99s estimated ERP, whic= h would seem to slightly more than offset a nominal E-W/W-E attenuation ratio, making Markus=E2=80=99 two propagation observations particularly interesting, as is the Forest question.

 

Fine work Stefan and Jay.

 

73,

 

Jim AA5BW   

 

From: owner-rsg= b_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Markus Vester
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 2:25 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success!

 

Hi Jay, Stefan,

really good work, truly amazing!

Noticing that Stefan hadn't sent another repeat last night 24/25th, I wondered whether the experiment might have&= nbsp;already been concluded successfully - yes it had ;-)

Considering that Joe has been making the TA W-E path with only 10= uW, in retrospective it seems not so surprising that Stefan's much st= ronger signal managed to overcome the E-W nonreciprocity. On the ot= her hand, when Uwe had sent a very long carrier in March 2014, no conclusive trace was ever detected in Virginia. Now I wonder whether Stefan's recent transmission has also been picked up in Forest= ?

All the best,
Markus (DF6NM)  


-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: jrusgrove <jrusgrove@comcast.net>
An: (rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: So, 25. Feb 2018 19:26
Betreff: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success!


Stefans transmission:

 

f =3D 8270.1000 Hz
Start time: 19.FEB.2018  22:30:00 UTC (daily)
Symbol period: 30 s
Characters: 2<= /span>
CRC bits: 22
Coding 16K21A<= /span>
Duration: 07:12 [hh:mm]
Antenna current: 700 mA

 

After a successful one character reception earlier in the week, we can now report the successful reception of a 2 character message. Stacking of 3  transmissions was required (0221, 0222 and 0223). There i= s also a 0224 file but it has timing issues and may or may not be usable= .

 

ebnaut-rx V0.8
input file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223.wav
sample rate 0.457240 per second
rx frequency 8270
file start time 2018-02-22 22:21:17.790
polynomial 16K21A
crc size 22
number of chars 2
block size 34
symbol period 30.000
number of symbols 864
start offset 537.000
freq offset 0.100000
cores 2
list length 500000
skipped 538.011261 seconds to start
initial reference phase 30.6
---------------------------------------------
found DX
list rank 48426
reference phase 150,150,150,150
carrier S/N 11.04 dB in 38.6 uHz, -33.10 dB in 1Hz, -67.08 dB in 2.5kHz
carrier Es/N0 -18.33 dB
carrier Eb/N0 0.47 dB
info bit period 2273.68 seconds
symbol error rate 373/864 =3D 43.171 %
Es/N0 from symbol errors -18.2 dB
Eb/N0 from symbol errors 0.6 dB
Shannon capacity 2.5 bits/hour
Shannon efficiency 62.7 %
symbols file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223-symbols.csv
elapsed 52 seconds
---------------------------------------------
found DX
list rank 17074
reference phase 120,150,120,150
carrier S/N 11.19 dB in 38.6 uHz, -32.94 dB in 1Hz, -66.92 dB in 2.5kHz
carrier Es/N0 -18.17 dB
carrier Eb/N0 0.62 dB
info bit period 2273.68 seconds
symbol error rate 374/864 =3D 43.287 %
Es/N0 from symbol errors -18.4 dB
Eb/N0 from symbol errors 0.4 dB
Shannon capacity 2.6 bits/hour
Shannon efficiency 60.5 %
symbols file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223-symbols.csv
elapsed 383 seconds

Jay W1VD  WD2XNS  WE2XGR/2

 

 

 

 

------=_Part_240253_1495437265.1519668508364--