Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id vBTCij14009597 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 13:44:46 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1eUtxE-0007DG-MP for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 12:40:04 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1eUtxE-0007D5-81 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 12:40:04 +0000 Received: from [217.72.171.73] (helo=porthos.netcom.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eUtx9-0002Ec-Mx for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 12:40:03 +0000 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=abelian.org Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=abelian.org ; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=bcJlbfYD2aklhsVfiEsXhvVLJLKgGKbn6iVfcvdiL/8=; b=ptyUxFfDWuMni5FGOhlqiSVb5Z 8m6uknRcNmbRqoLFYqdRTXC99hmNqi0xVV4UvysjdraQ0Iv83ZIB4M6MGYK48ijEwzoRYRetewnDP HBag/9iTTKBFNUXkeMTSRBgGEy2S/3cQ1H6Eopp0i+WFWsEJbwwVRbkM3BqFHFxAvkUM=; Received: from i-194-106-52-83.freedom2surf.net ([194.106.52.83]:57511 helo=pn.abelian.org) by porthos.netcom.co.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89_1) (envelope-from ) id 1eUtx7-00009D-Q6 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 12:39:58 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pn.abelian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E28400068 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 12:39:56 +0000 (UTC) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <4d96a9d4-5f22-7650-872b-6344e9aea8e3@abelian.org> <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB9AAAF572@servigilant.vigilant.local> <2166618d-7238-0516-367c-2f917532eed2@abelian.org> <5A20A4EC.4060009@posteo.de> <5A2694B9.4050407@posteo.de> <21caec0e-1514-3294-89a3-8569f0c6d443@abelian.org> <27BE047B-55C1-45E1-9BD8-575D5EF7179C@hurontel.on.ca> <4c4d7934-b02f-0c9f-e251-4c5a07086bef@abelian.org> <526a4012-19d5-aff0-0745-4b02a3a134e8@abelian.org> <5A2FD635.8080503@posteo.de> <807b7164-c345-9650-0c6b-d813b3304483@abelian.org> <0374401c-a9a5-ba61-89e0-15d5ad016ac8@abelian.org> <36a938b7-9db4-7417-26d6-5b4c4eac900e@abelian.org> <5A35A023.5010707@posteo.de> <1f5204c1-f256-f26e-e6dd-a4edc0c8a443@abelian.org> <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB9AB1735D@servigilant.vigilant.local> From: Paul Nicholson Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 12:39:56 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB9AB1735D@servigilant.vigilant.local> Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - porthos.netcom.co.uk X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - blacksheep.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - abelian.org X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: porthos.netcom.co.uk: authenticated_id: catchall@abelian.org X-Authenticated-Sender: porthos.netcom.co.uk: catchall@abelian.org X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Luis wrote: > From datasheets at Farnell, A262A6E is a 150:150 Ohm transformer > and A262A7E is a 600:600 Ohm > Is that correct ? [...] Content analysis details: (1.3 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP URI: URI host has a public dotted-decimal IPv4 address 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid 1.3 RDNS_NONE Delivered to internal network by a host with no rDNS X-Scan-Signature: 2ee80849a5d572dbc974bb207a527753 Subject: Re: LF: RE: Todmorden receiver Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.1 required=5.0 tests=FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Luis wrote: > From datasheets at Farnell, A262A6E is a 150:150 Ohm transformer > and A262A7E is a 600:600 Ohm > Is that correct ? Correct. The A6E has 125mH windings and A7E has 500mH windings. The 'impedance' is a rather useless parameter for a transformer. Both transformers have two primary and two secondary windings, so there are plenty of combinations to use to set line levels. > There is a metal screening housing for the A262 transformers. > Is it needed or recommended ? I don't use the metal screening cans. I've not found a need for them. > The "shield" pin in the transformer can be left floating I leave the shield pin open circuit at both ends. This is to maximise the capacitive isolation between the house ground and the rx ground. > Assume you are using twisted pair CAT5 cable to send the > signal from Rx to house, Yes, I find twisted pair works very well and is easier to use and cheaper than coax. Keep the termination impedances to ground well matched at both ends to minimise cross talk. I use 100 ohm resistors in series with each leg of the balanced circuit to reduce the resonance which occurs between the cat5 pair capacitance and the transformer leakage inductance. No need to terminate with any particular characteristic impedance. You can keep the balanced load impedance quite high - a few k at least. Keep the line voltages fairly low with these transformers, especially at low frequency, eg keep below 200mV at 50Hz, or less if you can. Here, about 100mV at 50Hz. No particular reason for A6E and one end at A7E at the other, they were just what was to hand at the time and I standardised on those for all three channels. I'm sure other transformers would work just as well. The main thing with any audio transformer is not to put too high a signal level through them, to avoid distortion particularly of the ELF signals, eg mains and large ELF signals from antenna movement. Needs adequate HP filtering in the rx. The total RMS voltage on the signal lines here is about 1V. > Do you use the other pairs to provide power supply ? Yes, one pair provides power, or parallel two pairs if you find the resistance is too high. Consider using quite a high supply voltage. I've been using 18V for a long time but am upgrading to 48V. Not a problem unless the cable is more than 100m or so. I use a switched mode PSU to power the line and isolating DC-DC converters at each rx. Use plenty of smoothing at the supply end so you don't have ripple currents on the cat5 to cross-talk into the signal pairs. Keep the DC pair floating with respect to house and rx grounds. You might want a 10M resistor from each pair (signal and power) to ground just to drain any static charge build-up. I also use a 60V gas discharge tube at each end of every pair: http://uk.farnell.com/bourns/2020-23t-c2lf/gas-discharge-tube-180v/dp/1961477 Other things... Spectrogram is now version 4.0d and is doing well with E/H and polarisation: http://78.46.38.217/fbins3.html#p=1514541600&b=245&s=fd&m=cardioid&w=r&h=42&z1=0.34&z2=0.64&c=1&mb=772,57,839,232,0 Yesterday I checked the arithmetic with some simulated signals inserted (digitally) into the signal processing. I discovered that the blanker increases E/H by 2% for some reason. It often shows impedances higher than 376 ohms, that appears to be just inaccuracy on noisy or unstable signals. I can't find a fault in the arithmetic and the calibration is pretty good now. The polarisation is the ratio of minor to major axis of the polarisation ellipse. +/- 1.0 is circular. 0.0 is linear. Distance signals should be more linear and closer to 376 ohms. Nearer sources are likely to be more elliptical and have lower E/H than free space. Use narrow bandwidth for best accuracy (wide measurement box) on weak signals. A bit delayed on the 48V upgrade, I realised I needed to change the 60V GDTs to higher voltage ones so I had to order those (Farnell 1961478). Now they've arrived but the weather is too bad to bring the receivers in. -- Paul Nicholson --