Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID,URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: wuwien: mailn 1290; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id v8AGJvOn018788 for ; Sun, 10 Sep 2017 18:19:59 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dr4sV-0004hz-8K for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 10 Sep 2017 17:14:35 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dr4sS-0004hq-2D for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 10 Sep 2017 17:14:32 +0100 Received: from porthos.netcom.co.uk ([217.72.171.73]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dr4sO-0004yY-4v for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 10 Sep 2017 17:14:30 +0100 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=abelian.org Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=abelian.org ; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:To:References:Reply-To:Subject:Sender:Cc: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ZuzKPoBEhL7qHuOWTt4oi/cB1zko6XVKG7Nj8tA+a+Y=; b=f+bv7bvMVGUvlbbwTrTr1ytWFd mOMDB90iB7eaIIvBFyOmaSpGHdRwDzbETLnKCkFQ+oGIMKL68/VfNkoKtNqh9aM40rFHgibrb3/9+ fJrspU7hs9AcUyCms1kyxbrp53QtQUTNk/8nnK84BwWorBiY7gu1ry3IAOkZFVEtSBsc=; Received: from i-194-106-52-83.freedom2surf.net ([194.106.52.83]:35528 helo=pn.abelian.org) by porthos.netcom.co.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dr4sL-0008Mw-HR for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 10 Sep 2017 17:14:25 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pn.abelian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9133E4000C2 for ; Sun, 10 Sep 2017 16:14:24 +0000 (UTC) References: <15e3d8ac066-c0a-2fad5@webjas-vab092.srv.aolmail.net> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: Paul Nicholson Message-ID: <6a4f2233-82b4-1264-6cad-0739ad154ed1@abelian.org> Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 16:14:24 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - porthos.netcom.co.uk X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - blacksheep.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - abelian.org X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: porthos.netcom.co.uk: authenticated_id: catchall@abelian.org X-Authenticated-Sender: porthos.netcom.co.uk: catchall@abelian.org X-Scan-Signature: 49f0f587e44d6711c57b8a4e950ba850 Subject: Re: VLF: E-field receivers in Todmorden Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 12563 The old rx is down at the moment, being measured on the work bench. The system noise floor is about 140nV/m in 1Hz. That's very high but quite low enough for natural radio (for which it is mainly used). The natural floor is about 10uV/m. But after sferic blanking (necessary for weak amateur signals) the natural floor may be down to 1uV/m and at that level the system noise from the old rx becomes noticeable. One reason for the new rx, which has about 5 to 10nV system noise depending on the front-end bias resistance I eventually decide to use. Unfortunately only the Alpha signals from the North East provide a suitable reference. Other signals eg MSK are too wide and amateur signals are too weak. Bernd, DF9RB wrote: > I plan to build this amplifier: > http://dg4rbf.lima-city.de/Ultra%20Low%20Noise%20AMP%20V1.7f%20_WebSeite.pdf > Please your opinion about this concept? Merging the currents from multiple front-end devices is a conventional way to achieve ultra low noise and this looks like a good implementation. I tried this technique with two devices but the doubling of the input capacitance reduced the signal by as much as the noise was lowered, no overall benefit (in fact slightly worse). This kind of thing shows up when you refer the system noise to field strength V/m instead of just input voltage. The system noise voltage is far lower than necessary and the gain is very high. Perhaps it is intended to work with a very small probe antenna. In that case the input capacitance is likely to cause a significant division of the signal voltage. I wonder how it performs in other respects. Dynamic range and intermod. Ultimately, a VLF pre-amp must be designed for a particular antenna. Measure the noise when the input is loaded by the equivalent antenna capacitance, and measure gain with a low impedance test signal injected through that capacitance. PS, this afternoon the old rx is back into operation. -- Paul Nicholson --