Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM,SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v58A1lqC012412 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 12:01:48 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1dIuBX-0006Q6-2M for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2017 10:56:59 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1dIuBW-0006Px-9l for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2017 10:56:58 +0100 Received: from omr-m010e.mx.aol.com ([204.29.186.10]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dIuBS-00083n-ET for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2017 10:56:57 +0100 Received: from mtaomg-aab01.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-aab01.mx.aol.com [172.26.126.207]) by omr-m010e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 37A3238000A8 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 05:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-acb10h.mail.aol.com (core-acb10.mail.aol.com [172.27.24.10]) by mtaomg-aab01.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id E1E8C38000081 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 05:56:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 80.146.228.71 by webprd-a21.mail.aol.com (10.72.23.185) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Thu, 08 Jun 2017 05:56:50 -0400 Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 05:56:50 -0400 From: Markus Vester To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-Id: <15c87229905-7b07-386ea@webprd-a21.mail.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <593859A7.3050907@posteo.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: JAS STD X-Originating-IP: [80.146.228.71] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20150623; t=1496915812; bh=IpRgeyz3gbLcZTPTv1x3e3mGctct9ldQK3h9C24ikXM=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=LQ4D/09ES+PiDcJ8KK4fGdksmzJxq5YqKo7XoIGyBpfTouy0ygevkwpkE8MnrfaFT 5s1coEyRXHUbPgyGfpkM5OMbjadyrR0O4DBtAtR2Xoesj0LB4KUS3tbYt/hMWcvHl7 5xKBlTQnJTP9pB0cIC+7AOG1R27T110Zv+VwvzfA= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1a7ecf59391f620715 X-Scan-Signature: 84016abdd353c82964b6d256164a353f Subject: Re: LF: 1000 character EbNaut message on LF? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_280928_577928017.1496915810561" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11927 ------=_Part_280928_577928017.1496915810561 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stefan, technically that could be made to work. But is it making good use of EbNaut= 's capabilities? My understanding is that it's made for messaging in SNR-li= mited channels, close to the Shannon / Hartley limit. Well I remember that a few years ago you were able to hear my voice in SSB = on LF. So our available SNR should be at least 10 dB higher than assumed in= the calculation (40 instead of 30 dB in 0.37 Hz). With a thousand characte= rs at 29 dB Eb/N0, someone like Mal would rightly argue that he could conve= y the same message faster in aural CW ;-) And a simple mode like PSK31 woul= d be even faster...=20 So to fully utilize the LF channel capacity between Nuernberg and Heidelber= g, we would need transmit about one million characters in 20 minutes! On the other hand, I'd be quite keen to get five characters into Tasmania..= . Best 73, Markus -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: DK7FC An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Mi, 7. Jun 2017 21:55 Betreff: LF: 1000 character EbNaut message on LF? Markus, Paul, Am 07.06.2017 20:56, schrieb Markus Vester:=20 Considering an EbNaut sequence with e.g. N=3D1000 symbols, ...i first thought you are writing N=3D 1000 characters. Which is a good i= dea BTW!=20 Don't you like to try a N=3D 1000 character transmission? I would like to = receive you on LF with such a message. For example: http://abelian.org/ebnaut/calc.php?sndb=3D30&snbws=3D0.366&sn= mps=3D&code=3D4K19&sp=3D0.05&crc=3D20&nc=3D999&submit=3DCalculate Paul, the calculator page does not allow to calculate N=3D1000, the maximu= m is N=3D999. For very long messages it would be also helpful to add the mo= de 4K17A to the calculator page, maybe even 4K15A. The signal bandwidth is just 20 Hz. But my PC would have not enough RAM. B= ut what about 4K15A, that should be fine :-) Do you like? 73, Stefan ------=_Part_280928_577928017.1496915810561 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Stefan,

technically that could be made to work= . But is it making good use of EbNaut's capabilities? My und= erstanding is that it's made for messaging in SNR-limited channels, close t= o the Shannon / Hartley limit.

Well I remember that a few years ago = you were able to hear my voice in SSB on LF. So our ava= ilable SNR should be at least 10 dB higher than assumed in t= he calculation (40 instead of 30 dB in 0.37 Hz). With a thousand characters= at 29 dB Eb/N0, someone like Mal would rightly argue that he could convey = the same message faster in aural CW ;-) And a simple mode like PSK31 w= ould be even faster...

So to fully utilize the LF channel= capacity between Nuernberg and Heidelberg, we would need transmit about one million characters in 20 minutes!

On the oth= er hand, I'd be quite keen to get five characters into Tasmania...
=
Best 73,
Markus


-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung----- <= br>Von: DK7FC <selberdenken@posteo.de>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_= lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: Mi, 7. Jun 2017 21:55
Betreff= : LF: 1000 character EbNaut message on LF?

Markus, Paul,

Am 07.06.2017 20:56, schrieb Markus Vester:
Considering an EbNaut sequence with e.g. N=3D1000 symbols,

...i first thought you are writing N=3D 1000 characters. Which is a good idea BTW!
Don't you like to try a N=3D 1000 character transmission? I would like to receive you on LF with such a message.
For example: http://abelian.org/ebnaut/calc.php?sndb=3D30&a= mp;snbws=3D0.366&snmps=3D&code=3D4K19&sp=3D0.05&crc=3D20&am= p;nc=3D999&submit=3DCalculate

Paul, the calculator page does not allow to calculate N=3D1000, the maximum is N=3D999. For very long messages it would be also helpful to add the mode 4K17A to the calculator page, maybe even 4K15A.

The signal bandwidth is just 20 Hz. But my PC would have not enough RAM. But what about 4K15A, that should be fine :-)

Do you like?

73, Stefan
------=_Part_280928_577928017.1496915810561--