Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v3AIrLhp024197 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2017 20:53:23 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1cxeO5-00073J-Vj for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2017 19:50:05 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1cxeNi-000735-QL for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2017 19:49:42 +0100 Received: from mail-yb0-x22f.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4002:c09::22f]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1cxeNf-0000ov-NA for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2017 19:49:41 +0100 Received: by mail-yb0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id m133so37269876ybb.1 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2017 11:49:39 -0700 (PDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Qdj8Z9v4iXBRwz82O0Qod06XkRp9kUtiZUw+vlJOqd0=; b=WC9mi8XpS0MwWesjAFdyLbhThZPYy3eJpO5OYWNeNulj0lHbI8IcaH1ZajM0NidNek NMfgDffDmX8Dj4Vctju/VmtfQQUdNdOe5MH6ePupO1vEkPJx4eWRh02ze/Plxhjg2RaP N8qsAQhF9MKWrjdxd1mzn5NdA2DZrx9OudKmZOKQZxY4aedJIdNDpWpwJII2CZj+juNN P1rozkYB0hLcFglJFJtf+kPzPvF2L0JUrdwZoz8rmA4RO6Zaa+rlMytoDrAOos2VBHqH w/yyGtgY01NcbAYFg5Tqpyk0XTO63RB5PKHAwnH5yMZWQvSZzsX60jgboWsBL2GihVx6 J5zQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=Qdj8Z9v4iXBRwz82O0Qod06XkRp9kUtiZUw+vlJOqd0=; b=pj9cYppdkvsSWa1zVph3sKMH+RA6/NxHuDDXpqyIpPMkLcq87yGq4jS/cUruCLjZWR 7YhvnGwLv+g7gDImx5q1KNrdte03OQ44SfhLsoN6R+T0ibFJ7u4aLkRAJ/Ex8Tpje7bx urPl3HS6KfjunBlkx1ABE5g27QWkjLrnJm+rxbHnazVsfAP1EoU3TpA37FUwD0opIULU X4V8GIxllf63iTDRFdAv5b8izpCvLJpTCAHNy/F9rmVyluF8vd6VWwIPmTx1RI/sD88t Rq1ngeZJP3y6tpAeT65BX9VHx3sJ31YrSBd51I1zd8rp2ewKwHDG+vAPt9ZhxoEyvnBZ QrOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AN3rC/6+n4A5/cDp98PDgLNnhFT6hCTExmxY+fLC83oV/M5tPKnKb8zl6ZEYlNaOOf+Qqn8qDJNQT003e0PMlg== X-Received: by 10.37.174.130 with SMTP id b2mr5544973ybj.125.1491850176919; Mon, 10 Apr 2017 11:49:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.129.173.1 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Apr 2017 11:49:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1294128911.20170408174233@gmail.com> <15b4f9773b2-2fd8-bf55@webprd-a08.mail.aol.com> <1316557940.20170410114729@gmail.com> From: Andy Talbot Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 19:49:36 +0100 Message-ID: To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, rsgb_lf_group X-Scan-Signature: f9bb43a66658129469273581af35b296 Subject: Re: LF: Wilkinson combiners - More Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045da834da7fae054cd46ff4 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11208 --f403045da834da7fae054cd46ff4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Why not keep it simple, and do it like the Decca transmitters? Forget complicated splitters/combiners with messy deliberate isolation. You are combining identical signals so that sort of design is not required. BEFORE any low pass filters, take each output of each transmitter module to separate identical primary windings on one, normal ferrite transformer core. Use a single secondary to take the combined power off through a low pass filter to your antenna. (But do size the core and turns for the TOTAL power to be generated) As both transmitter modules will be delivering identical outputs, the voltage induced in primary 2 coil from Tx module 1 will be exactly equal to the that delivered to it from Tx module 2 (and vice versa) so with both transmitters operating correctly, the outputs will sum in the secondary. you are adding teh currents delivered by each stage, from an equal voltage delivered by both. You are, to all intents and purposes, connecting the transmitters in parallel to multiply the current delivered in total You can use the combining transformer for impedance matching if wanted - for example the Decca ones have direct drive to the primary windings via a tank circuit and each of the ( In their case three) primary to single-secondary turns ration ratio sets the impedance transformation. Isolating combiners like Wilkinsons only come into their own properly when non-identical signals need to be summed while keeping the two sources isolated. Intermod testing in receivers is a particular case in point, where the two test signals have to be summed without generating their own intermod products caused by the output of one source leaking into the (probably non-linear) output of the other. If that happened, self-generated IMPS that could swamp those being tested-for. Andy G4JNT On 10 April 2017 at 19:20, Clemens Paul wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I've found additional info on the broadband Wilkinson combiner on my hard > disk, > which I believe stems from an old ANZAC data book. > The info refers to T2 and there are two ways of how it can be made. > Type 1 corresponds to the design shown in the mini circuits application > note > with the bridging resistor on the 100Ohm side of the transformer > and type 2 is exactly the design which Jay is using with the bridging > resistor on the > 25Ohm side. > Beside the pictorial view schematics and equivalent circuits are shown for > better understanding. > > 73 > Clemens > DL4RAJ > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > >[mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Chris Wilson > >Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 12:47 PM > >To: Markus Vester > >Subject: Re: LF: Wilkinson combiners > > > >Hello Clemens, Markus, Alan, Graham and all who replied re my > >combiner questions, > > > >Some great and patiently presented info here, thanks a bunch for > >explaining it so well and in such detail. I now have a much better > >grasp of how the wide and narrow band ones work and why a narrow band > >combiner might work best with pre filtered outputs sent to its input. > >I will build the W1VD design as I already have ferrites to do this, > >before buying hard to get (in the UK) and costly big iron cores for > >building a second W1VD LPF bank. If the W1VD combiner is not suitable > >I may well buy 3 more iron cores and build a second LPF. I will also > >try some low inductance resistors instead of the wire wounds, and look > >at the wire wounds with my AIM analyzer. Thanks agin everyone. Off to > >mow the lawn or I won't get a lift to and from the pub tonight ;) > > > > > >> Hi Chris, > > > >> either method should work: two separate T-type lowpass filters > >> after each PA will reflect the harmonics before they reach the > >> narrowband combiner. Or build Jay's broadband combiner, which will > >> pass on the harmonics to the T-lowpass instead of shunting > >them to ground. > > > >> Best 73, > >> Markus (DF6NM) > > > > > > > >-- > >Best regards, > > Chris mailto:dead_fets@gmail.com > > > > > --f403045da834da7fae054cd46ff4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Why not keep it simple, and do it like the Decca transmitt= ers? =C2=A0 Forget complicated splitters/combiners with messy deliberate is= olation.=C2=A0 You are combining identical signals so that sort of design i= s not required.

BEFORE any low pass filters, take each o= utput of each transmitter module to separate identical primary windings on = one, normal ferrite transformer core.=C2=A0 Use a single secondary to take = the combined power off through a low pass filter to your antenna. =C2=A0 (B= ut do size the =C2=A0core and turns for the TOTAL power to be generated)

As both transmitter modules will be delivering ident= ical outputs, the voltage induced in primary 2 coil from Tx module 1 will b= e exactly equal to the that delivered to it from Tx =C2=A0module 2 (and vic= e versa) =C2=A0so with both transmitters operating correctly, the outputs w= ill sum in the secondary. =C2=A0 =C2=A0you are adding teh currents delivere= d by each stage, from an equal voltage delivered by both. =C2=A0 You are, t= o all intents and purposes, connecting the transmitters in parallel to mult= iply the current delivered in total

You can use th= e combining transformer for impedance matching if wanted - for example the = Decca ones =C2=A0have direct drive to the primary windings via a tank circu= it and each of the ( In their case three) primary to single-secondary turns= ration ratio sets the impedance transformation.

I= solating combiners like Wilkinsons only come into their own properly when n= on-identical signals need to be summed while keeping the two sources isolat= ed. =C2=A0 =C2=A0Intermod testing in receivers is a particular case in poin= t, where the two test signals have to be summed without generating their ow= n intermod products caused by =C2=A0the output of one source leaking into t= he (probably non-linear) output of the other.=C2=A0 If that happened, self-= generated IMPS that could swamp those being tested-for.

<= /div>
Andy =C2=A0G4JNT




On 10 Apr= il 2017 at 19:20, Clemens Paul <cpaul@gmx.net> wrote:
Hi Chris,

I've found additional info on the broadband Wilkinson combiner on my ha= rd disk,
which I believe stems from an old ANZAC data book.
The info refers to T2 and there are two ways of how it can be made.
Type 1 corresponds to the design shown in the mini circuits application not= e
with the bridging resistor on the 100Ohm side of the transformer
and type 2 is exactly the design which Jay is using with the bridging resis= tor on the
25Ohm side.
Beside the pictorial view schematics and equivalent circuits are shown for = better understanding.

73
Clemens
DL4RAJ


>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rsgb_= lf_group@blacksheep.org
>[mailto:owner-rsg= b_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Chris Wilson
>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 12:47 PM
>To: Markus Vester
>Subject: Re: LF: Wilkinson combiners
>
>Hello Clemens, Markus, Alan, Graham and all who replied re my
>combiner questions,
>
>Some=C2=A0 great=C2=A0 and=C2=A0 patiently=C2=A0 presented=C2=A0 info= =C2=A0 here, thanks a bunch for
>explaining=C2=A0 it=C2=A0 so=C2=A0 well=C2=A0 and in such detail. I now= have a much better
>grasp=C2=A0 of how the wide and narrow band ones work and why a narrow = band
>combiner=C2=A0 might work best with pre filtered outputs sent to its in= put.
>I=C2=A0 will=C2=A0 build=C2=A0 the W1VD design as I already have ferrit= es to do this,
>before=C2=A0 buying=C2=A0 hard=C2=A0 to get (in the UK) and costly big = iron cores for
>building=C2=A0 a second W1VD LPF bank. If the W1VD combiner is not suit= able
>I=C2=A0 may=C2=A0 well buy 3 more iron cores and build a second LPF. I = will also
>try=C2=A0 some low inductance resistors instead of the wire wounds, and= look
>at=C2=A0 the wire wounds with my AIM analyzer. Thanks agin everyone. Of= f to
>mow the lawn or I won't get a lift to and from the pub tonight ;) >
>
>> Hi Chris,
>
>> either method should work: two separate T-type lowpass filters
>> after each PA will reflect the harmonics before they reach the
>> narrowband combiner. Or build Jay's broadband combiner, which = will
>> pass on the harmonics to the T-lowpass instead of shunting
>them to ground.
>
>> Best 73,
>> Markus (DF6NM)
>
>
>
>--
>Best regards,
> Chris=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mailto:dead_fets@gmail.com
>
>

--f403045da834da7fae054cd46ff4--