Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v3AKQl7o025091 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2017 22:26:48 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1cxfpV-00082G-QQ for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:22:29 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1cxfpU-000827-B4 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:22:28 +0100 Received: from mail-yb0-x231.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4002:c09::231]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1cxfpQ-00019Z-QR for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:22:27 +0100 Received: by mail-yb0-x231.google.com with SMTP id m133so38964963ybb.1 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2017 13:22:24 -0700 (PDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=+hPmz9BH6Tt9w8S9PZCtp/cx7588bvISgsnmqnvg4YI=; b=WjMW72ePPzATqAwhRIUOxrjFafNQZlFi34vbjehQMLC0GwHf2vWlifOtTts5K28jla A7vlJYmA4Zi5iggbz9WjQf9VB3XFpW9tauWJrsp7PstBisZB1Xq/xmoThfG3emKnVHu4 GVYesrZ8HQUw4I9t2CHohvxdHNyKkroWS4TN0vIIXLANZRLLYTdU7xATdlegmDhS6X/4 jqQNXSfqCLItn9UNa3Z5pETWFkPs70LMUCexFOcq7oeTKSMfK1mcMga3jvt9UbTo+ULi gYLhkycUxqWE34lkV9tXtRawU4ZpVubr7UdgQYL8RwybIRSRic6kGMNc7HNRsGshN+42 +MOg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=+hPmz9BH6Tt9w8S9PZCtp/cx7588bvISgsnmqnvg4YI=; b=lEHY7alnM6Is3mXWyfxtDduYH2ScWsQbDQuJ58sibghj/2FzR/19x4jhFAqcWqbj0Q uk7kC6fiXvKEm53AFRZMcXgsF2NnzihnoeGEabcehwwwYA59gVKeHUhLs6mui4RzDuIR 7stpndecjFNxJRVfNM+CXhmbvH5mPYZkUpVBS8klMOhU0jwBPhfK7CZo5GsHqgKVBwge WKXsuXGXOgF/QBt8WhmbiYBkBixGgEis3hak+yRrBFfekYAz2oTBVZxid0xixNdOYM0M 2vwXH8PLdEw+m1gn94WS8QM+fdbB6fADMNx3QtFy41HSCMIaowh5KSNqVLFc1mx1rIsO qgLw== X-Gm-Message-State: AN3rC/5c/LGlma4aJMxXabVxhEdo0iLEgTJNzCCNS8jJBYPp0MTkwMdrCGTMakcIBZJ0g+4+v+J87wLSfXz7ew== X-Received: by 10.129.141.74 with SMTP id w10mr2177338ywj.304.1491855742222; Mon, 10 Apr 2017 13:22:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.129.173.1 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Apr 2017 13:22:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1294128911.20170408174233@gmail.com> <15b4f9773b2-2fd8-bf55@webprd-a08.mail.aol.com> <1316557940.20170410114729@gmail.com> From: Andy Talbot Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:22:21 +0100 Message-ID: To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Scan-Signature: dbfcc27a21e9e888d454ffd0e5adf99c Subject: Re: LF: Wilkinson combiners - More Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045f01e69265f1054cd5bbc9 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11212 --f403045f01e69265f1054cd5bbc9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Well... the Decca ones do have individual tanks for each PA module, so they are not combining square waves - but surely worth a try 'jnt On 10 April 2017 at 21:09, Graham wrote: > Any issues in switching modules in /out ... simply a multi primary > transformer ? > > G, > > *From:* Andy Talbot > *Sent:* Monday, April 10, 2017 7:49 PM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ; rsgb_lf_group > > *Subject:* Re: LF: Wilkinson combiners - More > > Why not keep it simple, and do it like the Decca transmitters? Forget > complicated splitters/combiners with messy deliberate isolation. You are > combining identical signals so that sort of design is not required. > > BEFORE any low pass filters, take each output of each transmitter module > to separate identical primary windings on one, normal ferrite transformer > core. Use a single secondary to take the combined power off through a low > pass filter to your antenna. (But do size the core and turns for the > TOTAL power to be generated) > > As both transmitter modules will be delivering identical outputs, the > voltage induced in primary 2 coil from Tx module 1 will be exactly equal to > the that delivered to it from Tx module 2 (and vice versa) so with both > transmitters operating correctly, the outputs will sum in the secondary. > you are adding teh currents delivered by each stage, from an equal voltage > delivered by both. You are, to all intents and purposes, connecting the > transmitters in parallel to multiply the current delivered in total > > You can use the combining transformer for impedance matching if wanted - > for example the Decca ones have direct drive to the primary windings via a > tank circuit and each of the ( In their case three) primary to > single-secondary turns ration ratio sets the impedance transformation. > > Isolating combiners like Wilkinsons only come into their own properly when > non-identical signals need to be summed while keeping the two sources > isolated. Intermod testing in receivers is a particular case in point, > where the two test signals have to be summed without generating their own > intermod products caused by the output of one source leaking into the > (probably non-linear) output of the other. If that happened, > self-generated IMPS that could swamp those being tested-for. > > Andy G4JNT > > > > > On 10 April 2017 at 19:20, Clemens Paul wrote: > >> Hi Chris, >> >> I've found additional info on the broadband Wilkinson combiner on my hard >> disk, >> which I believe stems from an old ANZAC data book. >> The info refers to T2 and there are two ways of how it can be made. >> Type 1 corresponds to the design shown in the mini circuits application >> note >> with the bridging resistor on the 100Ohm side of the transformer >> and type 2 is exactly the design which Jay is using with the bridging >> resistor on the >> 25Ohm side. >> Beside the pictorial view schematics and equivalent circuits are shown >> for better understanding. >> >> 73 >> Clemens >> DL4RAJ >> >> >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> >[mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Chris Wilson >> >Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 12:47 PM >> >To: Markus Vester >> >Subject: Re: LF: Wilkinson combiners >> > >> >Hello Clemens, Markus, Alan, Graham and all who replied re my >> >combiner questions, >> > >> >Some great and patiently presented info here, thanks a bunch for >> >explaining it so well and in such detail. I now have a much better >> >grasp of how the wide and narrow band ones work and why a narrow band >> >combiner might work best with pre filtered outputs sent to its input. >> >I will build the W1VD design as I already have ferrites to do this, >> >before buying hard to get (in the UK) and costly big iron cores for >> >building a second W1VD LPF bank. If the W1VD combiner is not suitable >> >I may well buy 3 more iron cores and build a second LPF. I will also >> >try some low inductance resistors instead of the wire wounds, and look >> >at the wire wounds with my AIM analyzer. Thanks agin everyone. Off to >> >mow the lawn or I won't get a lift to and from the pub tonight ;) >> > >> > >> >> Hi Chris, >> > >> >> either method should work: two separate T-type lowpass filters >> >> after each PA will reflect the harmonics before they reach the >> >> narrowband combiner. Or build Jay's broadband combiner, which will >> >> pass on the harmonics to the T-lowpass instead of shunting >> >them to ground. >> > >> >> Best 73, >> >> Markus (DF6NM) >> > >> > >> > >> >-- >> >Best regards, >> > Chris mailto:dead_fets@gmail.com >> > >> > >> > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > --f403045f01e69265f1054cd5bbc9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well... =C2=A0 the Decca ones do have individual tanks for= each PA module, so they are not combining square waves - but surely worth = a try

'jnt


On 10 April 2017 at 21:09, Graha= m <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Any issues=C2=A0 in=C2=A0 switching=C2=A0 modules=C2=A0 in /out=C2=A0 = ...=20 simply a=C2=A0 multi primary transformer ?
=C2=A0
G,=C2=A0

Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Wilkinson combiners - More

Why not keep it simple, and do it like the Decca transmitt= ers?=20 =C2=A0 Forget complicated splitters/combiners with messy deliberate=20 isolation.=C2=A0 You are combining identical signals so that sort of design= is=20 not required.=20

BEFORE any low pass filters, take each output of each transmitter modu= le to=20 separate identical primary windings on one, normal ferrite transformer=20 core.=C2=A0 Use a single secondary to take the combined power off through a= low=20 pass filter to your antenna. =C2=A0 (But do size the =C2=A0core and turns f= or=20 the TOTAL power to be generated)

As both transmitter modules will be delivering identical outputs, the= =20 voltage induced in primary 2 coil from Tx module 1 will be exactly equal to= the=20 that delivered to it from Tx =C2=A0module 2 (and vice versa) =C2=A0so with = both=20 transmitters operating correctly, the outputs will sum in the secondary. = =C2=A0=20 =C2=A0you are adding teh currents delivered by each stage, from an equal vo= ltage=20 delivered by both. =C2=A0 You are, to all intents and purposes, connecting = the=20 transmitters in parallel to multiply the current delivered in total

You can use the combining transformer for impedance matching if wanted= -=20 for example the Decca ones =C2=A0have direct drive to the primary windings = via a=20 tank circuit and each of the ( In their case three) primary to single-secon= dary=20 turns ration ratio sets the impedance transformation.

Isolating combiners like Wilkinsons only come into their own properly = when=20 non-identical signals need to be summed while keeping the two sources isola= ted.=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Intermod testing in receivers is a particular case in point, w= here=20 the two test signals have to be summed without generating their own intermo= d=20 products caused by =C2=A0the output of one source leaking into the (probabl= y=20 non-linear) output of the other.=C2=A0 If that happened, self-generated IMP= S=20 that could swamp those being tested-for.

Andy =C2=A0G4JNT




On 10 April 2017 at 19:20, Clemens Paul <cpaul@gmx.= net> wrote:
Hi Chris,

I've found addit= ional info on the broadband=20 Wilkinson combiner on my hard disk,
which I believe stems from an old = ANZAC=20 data book.
The info refers to T2 and there are two ways of how it can = be=20 made.
Type 1 corresponds to the design shown in the mini circuits=20 application note
with the bridging resistor on the 100Ohm side of the= =20 transformer
and type 2 is exactly the design which Jay is using with t= he=20 bridging resistor on the
25Ohm side.
Beside the pictorial view=20 schematics and equivalent circuits are shown for better=20 understanding.

73
Clemens
DL4RAJ


>-----Origina= l=20 Message-----
>From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
>= ;[mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]=20 On Behalf Of Chris Wilson
>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 12:47=20 PM
>To: Markus Vester
>Subject: Re: LF: Wilkinson=20 combiners
>
>Hello Clemens, Markus, Alan, Graham and all who= =20 replied re my
>combiner questions,
>
>Some=C2=A0 great= =C2=A0=20 and=C2=A0 patiently=C2=A0 presented=C2=A0 info=C2=A0 here, thanks a bunch= =20 for
>explaining=C2=A0 it=C2=A0 so=C2=A0 well=C2=A0 and in such deta= il. I=20 now have a much better
>grasp=C2=A0 of how the wide and narrow band= ones=20 work and why a narrow band
>combiner=C2=A0 might work best with pre= =20 filtered outputs sent to its input.
>I=C2=A0 will=C2=A0 build=C2=A0= the=20 W1VD design as I already have ferrites to do this,
>before=C2=A0=20 buying=C2=A0 hard=C2=A0 to get (in the UK) and costly big iron cores=20 for
>building=C2=A0 a second W1VD LPF bank. If the W1VD combiner is= not=20 suitable
>I=C2=A0 may=C2=A0 well buy 3 more iron cores and build a= =20 second LPF. I will also
>try=C2=A0 some low inductance resistors in= stead=20 of the wire wounds, and look
>at=C2=A0 the wire wounds with my AIM= =20 analyzer. Thanks agin everyone. Off to
>mow the lawn or I won't= get a=20 lift to and from the pub tonight ;)
>
>
>> Hi=20 Chris,
>
>> either method should work: two separate T-type= =20 lowpass filters
>> after each PA will reflect the harmonics befo= re=20 they reach the
>> narrowband combiner. Or build Jay's broadb= and=20 combiner, which will
>> pass on the harmonics to the T-lowpass= =20 instead of shunting
>them to ground.
>
>> Best=20 73,
>> Markus (DF6NM)
>
>
>
>--
>B= est=20 regards,
> Chris=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mailto:dead_fets@gmail.com
>
>


Virus-free. www.avast.com

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