Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v3B08xGQ026581 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2017 02:09:01 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1cxjJ2-0001Ma-BR for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2017 01:05:12 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1cxjJ1-0001MR-Fp for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2017 01:05:11 +0100 Received: from smtpout1.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.29] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1cxjIx-0001hi-7Y for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2017 01:05:10 +0100 Received: from AGB ([95.148.100.65]) by mwinf5d01 with ME id 6o541v00y1QfCx303o55zq; Tue, 11 Apr 2017 02:05:05 +0200 X-ME-Helo: AGB X-ME-Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 02:05:05 +0200 X-ME-IP: 95.148.100.65 Message-ID: From: "Graham" To: References: <1294128911.20170408174233@gmail.com> <15b4f9773b2-2fd8-bf55@webprd-a08.mail.aol.com> <1316557940.20170410114729@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 01:05:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 170410-2, 10/04/2017), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Scan-Signature: 14759bf2439a3bc6c6cfb00a36c7f220 Subject: Re: LF: Wilkinson combiners - More Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B4_01D2B25F.A74E9CF0" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11215 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B4_01D2B25F.A74E9CF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Clever ... The coupling circuits are series resonant low=3Dz ? , so = the transformer must be acting as a step up ... which means its ac= ting like a virtual earth, each amp is looking into a very low z ,= so very little inter module coupling .. Ae tune may not reflect ba= ck past the combiner either ? well worth replicating ! http://www.g4jnt.com/137tx.pdf From: Andy Talbot Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 9:22 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Wilkinson combiners - More Well... the Decca ones do have individual tanks for each PA module, so th= ey are not combining square waves - but surely worth a try 'jnt On 10 April 2017 at 21:09, Graham wrote: Any issues in switching modules in /out ... simply a multi primary = transformer ? G, From: Andy Talbot Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 7:49 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ; rsgb_lf_group Subject: Re: LF: Wilkinson combiners - More Why not keep it simple, and do it like the Decca transmitters? Forget c= omplicated splitters/combiners with messy deliberate isolation. You are co= mbining identical signals so that sort of design is not required. BEFORE any low pass filters, take each output of each transmitter module = to separate identical primary windings on one, normal ferrite transformer c= ore. Use a single secondary to take the combined power off through a low p= ass filter to your antenna. (But do size the core and turns for the TOTA= L power to be generated) As both transmitter modules will be delivering identical outputs, the vol= tage induced in primary 2 coil from Tx module 1 will be exactly equal to th= e that delivered to it from Tx module 2 (and vice versa) so with both tra= nsmitters operating correctly, the outputs will sum in the secondary. yo= u are adding teh currents delivered by each stage, from an equal voltage de= livered by both. You are, to all intents and purposes, connecting the tra= nsmitters in parallel to multiply the current delivered in total You can use the combining transformer for impedance matching if wanted - = for example the Decca ones have direct drive to the primary windings via a= tank circuit and each of the ( In their case three) primary to single-seco= ndary turns ration ratio sets the impedance transformation. Isolating combiners like Wilkinsons only come into their own properly whe= n non-identical signals need to be summed while keeping the two sources iso= lated. Intermod testing in receivers is a particular case in point, wher= e the two test signals have to be summed without generating their own inter= mod products caused by the output of one source leaking into the (probably= non-linear) output of the other. If that happened, self-generated IMPS th= at could swamp those being tested-for. Andy G4JNT On 10 April 2017 at 19:20, Clemens Paul wrote: Hi Chris, I've found additional info on the broadband Wilkinson combiner on my ha= rd disk, which I believe stems from an old ANZAC data book. The info refers to T2 and there are two ways of how it can be made. Type 1 corresponds to the design shown in the mini circuits application= note with the bridging resistor on the 100Ohm side of the transformer and type 2 is exactly the design which Jay is using with the bridging r= esistor on the 25Ohm side. Beside the pictorial view schematics and equivalent circuits are shown = for better understanding. 73 Clemens DL4RAJ >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >[mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Chris Wilson >Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 12:47 PM >To: Markus Vester >Subject: Re: LF: Wilkinson combiners > >Hello Clemens, Markus, Alan, Graham and all who replied re my >combiner questions, > >Some great and patiently presented info here, thanks a bunch for= >explaining it so well and in such detail. I now have a much better= >grasp of how the wide and narrow band ones work and why a narrow band= >combiner might work best with pre filtered outputs sent to its input.= >I will build the W1VD design as I already have ferrites to do this,= >before buying hard to get (in the UK) and costly big iron cores for= >building a second W1VD LPF bank. If the W1VD combiner is not suitable= >I may well buy 3 more iron cores and build a second LPF. I will also= >try some low inductance resistors instead of the wire wounds, and loo= k >at the wire wounds with my AIM analyzer. Thanks agin everyone. Off to= >mow the lawn or I won't get a lift to and from the pub tonight ;) > > >> Hi Chris, > >> either method should work: two separate T-type lowpass filters >> after each PA will reflect the harmonics before they reach the >> narrowband combiner. Or build Jay's broadband combiner, which will >> pass on the harmonics to the T-lowpass instead of shunting >them to ground. > >> Best 73, >> Markus (DF6NM) > > > >-- >Best regards, > Chris mailto:dead_fets@gmail.com > > Virus-free. www.avast.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ------=_NextPart_000_00B4_01D2B25F.A74E9CF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Clever ...  The  coupling circuits  are  series resonant  low=3Dz ? ,  so  the   transformer = must be  acting  as  a step  up  ... which means  its  acting  like a  virtual  earth, e= ach amp  is looking into  a  very low  z   , so&n= bsp; very little   inter  module  coupling  ..  Ae= tune  may not reflect back past the  combiner either ?  = ;
 
well  worth  replicating !
 
http://www.g4jnt.com/137tx.pdf<= /DIV>

Well...   the Decca ones do have individual tanks for e= ach PA module, so they are not combining square waves - but surely worth a try

'jnt


On 10 April 2017 at 21:09, Graham = <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

From: Andy Talbot
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Wilkinson combiners - More
=

Why not keep it simple, and do it like the Decca transmitt= ers?   Forget complicated splitters/combiners with messy deliberate isolation.  You are combining identical signals so that sort of desi= gn is not required.

BEFORE any low pass filters, take each output of each transmitter mo= dule to separate identical primary windings on one, normal ferrite transformer= core.  Use a single secondary to take the combined power off through= a low pass filter to your antenna.   (But do size the  core and t= urns for the TOTAL power to be generated)

As both transmitter modules will be delivering identical outputs, th= e voltage induced in primary 2 coil from Tx module 1 will be exactly equal = to the that delivered to it from Tx  module 2 (and vice versa)  so= with both transmitters operating correctly, the outputs will sum in the second= ary.    you are adding teh currents delivered by each stage, from an= equal voltage delivered by both.   You are, to all intents and purpo= ses, connecting the transmitters in parallel to multiply the current delivered= in total

You can use the combining transformer for impedance matching if want= ed - for example the Decca ones  have direct drive to the primary winding= s via a tank circuit and each of the ( In their case three) primary to single-secondary turns ration ratio sets the impedance transformation.

Isolating combiners like Wilkinsons only come into their own properl= y when non-identical signals need to be summed while keeping the two source= s isolated.    Intermod testing in receivers is a particular case= in point, where the two test signals have to be summed without generating th= eir own intermod products caused by  the output of one source leaking in= to the (probably non-linear) output of the other.  If that happened, self-generated IMPS that could swamp those being tested-for.

Andy  G4JNT




On 10 April 2017 at 19:20, Clemens Paul <cpaul@gmx.net> wrote:
Hi Chris,

I've found additional info on the broadband Wilkinson combiner on my hard disk,
which I believe stems = from an old ANZAC data book.
The info refers to T2 and there are two ways= of how it can be made.
Type 1 corresponds to the design shown in the mi= ni circuits application note
with the bridging resistor on the 100Ohm s= ide of the transformer
and type 2 is exactly the design which Jay is usi= ng with the bridging resistor on the
25Ohm side.
Beside the pictoria= l view schematics and equivalent circuits are shown for better understanding.

73
Clemens
DL4RAJ


>-----Origi= nal Message-----
>From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
>[mai= lto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf = Of Chris Wilson
>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 12:47 PM
>To: Ma= rkus Vester
>Subject: Re: LF: Wilkinson combiners
>
>Hello= Clemens, Markus, Alan, Graham and all who replied re my
>combiner= questions,
>
>Some  great  and  patiently&nb= sp; presented  info  here, thanks a bunch for
>explaining&n= bsp; it  so  well  and in such detail. I now have a much better
>grasp  of how the wide and narrow band ones work and= why a narrow band
>combiner  might work best with pre filtered outputs sent to its input.
>I  will  build  the W1= VD design as I already have ferrites to do this,
>before  buying  hard  to get (in the UK) and costly big iron cores for
>building  a second W1VD LPF bank. If the W1VD combiner = is not suitable
>I  may  well buy 3 more iron cores and bu= ild a second LPF. I will also
>try  some low inductance resistors = instead of the wire wounds, and look
>at  the wire wounds wi= th my AIM analyzer. Thanks agin everyone. Off to
>mow the lawn or I won= 't get a lift to and from the pub tonight ;)
>
>
>> H= i Chris,
>
>> either method should work: two separate T-ty= pe lowpass filters
>> after each PA will reflect the harmonics be= fore they reach the
>> narrowband combiner. Or build Jay's broadban= d combiner, which will
>> pass on the harmonics to the T-lowpass= instead of shunting
>them to ground.
>
>> Best 73,
>> Markus (DF6NM)
>
>
>
>--
>= ;Best regards,
> Chris              =               mailto:dead_fets@gmail.com
>
>


Virus-fre= e. www.avast.com


Virus-= free. www.avast.com
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