Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v3T3PPgY026289 for ; Sat, 29 Apr 2017 05:25:26 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1d4Iwc-0004L9-L0 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 29 Apr 2017 04:21:14 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1d4IwG-0004L0-8c for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 29 Apr 2017 04:20:52 +0100 Received: from resqmta-ch2-07v.sys.comcast.net ([2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:39]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1d4IwA-0006mr-Iq for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 29 Apr 2017 04:20:50 +0100 Received: from resomta-ch2-15v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.111]) by resqmta-ch2-07v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id 4IvOdr1r7U9z54Iw5dDkNf; Sat, 29 Apr 2017 03:20:41 +0000 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=comcast.net Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20161114; t=1493436041; bh=zWMebOi78hvEHjnCJXBodILqWVN3CxqSpa9RMhminRo=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=RQzN82XZyU84hs4QI/x2oyi3OxKkuyJZVfJl79c70cQoPV5aFIMCd5YzbEawXwu7+ eHJIbc6GZ2Li7u1fMZxBGOprRsN7k4cTa4zY7BB8J8/r2LzFc7OCwm5vnc9zqRXrR8 etoDmtS1sZkDlLxXDAnB9V8CnY3MecoM8Qgt2lmhVq/jFg44LW2mpDtMsV6SQsu02i KMBsg4ou1OvQgMHAfr+DT6iKjiPV/9ygplme/Z4+gAQZk4+t8WgE1lYk2Y89vbai8U bLeIw5UCpnwPmR6iRsw/Gj6+HGRXO7PWIAslhrjPpxEIwmxCyr+pYnzlPqido8BJ6N Kun9ZBbcXtkww== Received: from Owner ([IPv6:2601:140:8500:7f9f:4d93:2a79:b589:d322]) by resomta-ch2-15v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id 4Iw3dzQLBXTPj4Iw4dfyME; Sat, 29 Apr 2017 03:20:40 +0000 From: To: References: <15bb68d7b68-2379-cd0e@webprd-m107.mail.aol.com> <15bb713451c-2379-d153@webprd-m107.mail.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <15bb713451c-2379-d153@webprd-m107.mail.aol.com> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 23:20:27 -0400 Message-ID: <023d01d2c097$92859b70$b790d250$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AQHKbJvHGNhoaDu1c5Sfg6NBC3Rc/KHsSxFw X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfENB5FtzoEP+6dmT3v1LeyjHcltaIHWjPMLKpZXpbMwWT4r9oPuLo6Yq3zsQTOyd157KnX904oOkUB50t2y2UVF1YmvzHuldulx9ooE5Vyv5n6ardO3e O+/1kRetIDtlyHVcPefPI97j+x2zyInpPE4= X-Scan-Signature: 58889345c4cbcb55d17ea63c4983eff0 Subject: RE: VLF: DK7FC 8270.005 and DF6NM 8270.005139 at DL0AO grabber Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_023E_01D2C076.0B766C70" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11516 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_023E_01D2C076.0B766C70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Markus and Stefan, =20 That was a fascinating experiment, thanks for providing link to grabber = with the combined signal. =20 It is as you stated fascinating to visualize your multi-lobe antenna = pattern slowly sweeping over Europe! =20 I looked at the spectrogram for any signs of phase sensitivity to = time-varying polarization ellipticity from non-vertical antenna at 226 = km and of course saw only the well-behaved signature that you described. = Ratiometric AoA-measurement variations are well documented for such = conditions at VLF but I think that those may not manifest in significant = phase variations unless the receiver antenna is placed near angulated or = curved conductive items.=20 =20 Nice coherent signal reinforcement=E2=80=A6 and nulling, and = phase-offset measurement. An excellent experiment. =20 73, =20 Jim AA5BW =20 =20 =20 From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Markus Vester Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 8:19 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: VLF: DK7FC 8270.005 and DF6NM 8270.005139 at DL0AO grabber =20 Stefan's carrier went off air at 23:07, and I left mine on for another = hour until 00:03 UT. On the DL0AO grabber, a sharp minimum occured just before the 21:43 UT = screenshot. Considering the FFT half length (20 min), antiphase happened = at 21:22 (+- 2) minutes, implying that the signals were in-phase 22 = minutes after the even hour. This means that my signal phase at DL0AO is = -66=C2=B0 (i.e. retarded) versus DK7FC. From the 4.9 lambda path = difference we would expect +1764=C2=B0 =3D -36=C2=B0. Thus my TX signal = is 30=C2=B0 later and my local pickup probe 30=C2=B0 faster than = Stefan's. Stefan's trace was well visible in Todmorden and also on the G3ZJO = grabber. There was a bit of QSB on both, but I'm not quite sure whether = that is really due to the contribution from here. 73 and good night, Markus -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: Markus Vester An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Fr, 28. Apr 2017 23:52 Betreff: Re: VLF: DK7FC 8270.005 and DF6NM 8270.005139 at DL0AO grabber Hi Stefan, fascinating, energy from nothing ;-) The trick is of course that the = voltages are added rather than power: 1 + 0.355 =3D 1.355 =3D +2.6 dB. Now at 21:43 we are apparently approaching the minimum at DL0AO. It's = fascinating to visualize our multi-lobe antenna pattern, slowly sweeping = over Europe. Hope it won't rain so we can continue for a couple of hours = more. Best regards, Markus -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: DK7FC An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Fr, 28. Apr 2017 23:33 Betreff: Re: VLF: DK7FC 8270.005 and DF6NM 8270.005139 at DL0AO grabber Hi Markus,=20 A nice experiment! I'm curious about Pauls results.=20 But how can our combined signal be 2...3 dB stronger when your signal is = 9 dB weaker? BTW i can see you on my grabber in 424 uHz although i am transmitting in = just 2.5 mHz 'distance' with a 40 dB stronger signal level :-) http://www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de/schaefer_vlf/DK7FC_VLF_Grabber2.html 73, Stefan Am 28.04.2017 23:10, schrieb Markus Vester:=20 The combined signal at DL0AO has been growing steadily during the last = hour, now at 21 UT we must be close to the maximum. For anyone who'd = like to watch it live, we'd like to announce an online VLF grabber in = Amberg: http://df6nm.bplaced.net/dl0ao/VLFgrabber/vlfgrabber_dl0ao.htm The receive antenna is still an improvised long wire near a fence, but = it seems to work quite well already. Tom and Bernd are building an = active E.probe which will be installed soon. Best 73, Markus -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: Markus Vester An: rsgb_lf_group = Verschickt: Fr, 28. Apr 2017 22:11 Betreff: VLF: DK7FC 8270.005 and DF6NM 8270.005139 Around 17 UT, DK7FC has started another carrier on 8270.005 Hz. Since 20 = UT, I am joining in on a slightly higher frequency, 8270.005 + 1/7200 Hz = (i.e. 138.89 uHz up). Compared to Stefan, I can achieve about 60% = current into 60% effective antenna height, so my ERP should be ~ 9 dB = weaker.=20 The two carriers will be resolved by a 47 uHz spectrogram. But at lower = resolution (e.g. 424 uHz), they will merge into a two-hour sinusoidal = beat pattern. The idea is to use that to indirectly measure our phase = difference, by observing the times of maxima and minima at DL0AO in = Amberg (and perhaps also in Paul's spectrogram). As both carriers are = GPS locked, the two transmitters (or rather the two near-field pickup = probe signals which are compared to GPS) will be in phase at even hours = (UT), and in antiphase at odd hours. Using the known path difference = (178 km =3D 4.9 lambda) to DL0AO, we could in principle calibrate the = phase difference of our differently built phase-feedback probes. This = could then be used in the future to obtain 2 to 3 dB directional gain in = any desired direction. One shortcoming of the measurement may be that while the 48 km path from = myself to DL0AO is groundwave dominated, there will be a strong and = variable skywave contribution from DK7FC at 226 km. So any array = steering calculated therefrom may be incorrect during the daytime, or = for long-distance paths with skywave from both sources. It might however = be possible to account for the diurnal phase change using the = DK7FC-DF6NM colour-phase measurement from Jan 28/29. All the best, Markus (DF6NM) ------=_NextPart_000_023E_01D2C076.0B766C70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Markus and Stefan,

 

That was a fascinating experiment, thanks for providing link to = grabber with the combined signal.

 

It is as you stated fascinating to visualize your multi-lobe = antenna pattern slowly sweeping over Europe!

 

I looked at the spectrogram for any signs of phase sensitivity to = time-varying polarization ellipticity from non-vertical antenna at 226 = km and of course saw only the well-behaved signature that you described. = Ratiometric AoA-measurement variations are well documented for such = conditions at VLF but I think that those may not manifest in significant = phase variations unless the receiver antenna is placed near angulated or = curved conductive items.

 

Nice coherent signal reinforcement=E2=80=A6 and nulling, and = phase-offset measurement. An excellent = experiment.

 

73,

 

Jim AA5BW = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<= /p>

 

 

From:= = owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Markus = Vester
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 8:19 PM
To: = rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: VLF: DK7FC 8270.005 = and DF6NM 8270.005139 at DL0AO grabber

 

S= tefan's carrier went off air at 23:07, and I left mine on for another = hour until 00:03 UT.

<= br>On the DL0AO grabber, a sharp minimum occured just before the 21:43 = UT screenshot. Considering the FFT half length (20 min), antiphase = happened at 21:22 (+- 2) minutes, implying that the signals were = in-phase 22 minutes after the even hour. This means that my signal phase = at DL0AO is -66=C2=B0 (i.e. retarded) versus DK7FC. From the 4.9 lambda = path difference we would expect +1764=C2=B0 =3D -36=C2=B0. Thus my TX = signal is 30=C2=B0 later and my local pickup probe 30=C2=B0 faster than = Stefan's.

<= br>Stefan's trace was well visible in Todmorden and also on the G3ZJO = grabber. There was a bit of QSB on both, but I'm not quite sure whether = that is really due to the contribution from = here.

<= br>73 and good night,
Markus


-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche = Mitteilung-----
Von: Markus Vester <markusvester@aol.com>
An: = rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= >
Verschickt: Fr, 28. Apr 2017 23:52
Betreff: Re: VLF: = DK7FC 8270.005 and DF6NM 8270.005139 at DL0AO = grabber

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>H= i Stefan,

fascinating, energy from nothing ;-) The trick is of = course that the voltages are added rather than power: 1 + 0.355 =3D = 1.355 =3D +2.6 dB.

Now at 21:43 we are apparently = approaching the minimum at DL0AO. It's fascinating to visualize our = multi-lobe antenna pattern, slowly sweeping over Europe. Hope it won't = rain so we can continue for a couple of hours more.

Best = regards,
Markus


-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung----- =
Von: DK7FC <selberdenken@posteo.de>
= An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= >
Verschickt: Fr, 28. Apr 2017 23:33
Betreff: Re: VLF: = DK7FC 8270.005 and DF6NM 8270.005139 at DL0AO = grabber

H= i Markus,

A nice experiment! I'm curious about Pauls results. =
But how can our combined signal be 2...3 dB stronger when your = signal is 9 dB weaker?

BTW i can see you on my grabber in 424 uHz = although i am transmitting in just 2.5 mHz 'distance' with a 40 dB = stronger signal level :-)
http://www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de/schaefer_vlf/DK7FC_VLF= _Grabber2.html

73, Stefan

Am 28.04.2017 23:10, schrieb = Markus Vester:

T= he combined signal at DL0AO has been growing steadily during the last = hour, now at 21 UT we must be close to the maximum. For anyone who'd = like to watch it live, we'd like to announce an = online VLF grabber in Amberg:

 http://df6nm.bplaced.net/dl0ao/VLFgrabber/vlfgrabber_dl= 0ao.htm

The receive antenna is still an improvised long wire = near a fence, but it seems to work quite well already. Tom and Bernd are = building an active E.probe which will be = installed soon.

Best = 73,
Markus



-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung----- =
Von: Markus Vester <markusvester@aol.com>
An: rsgb_lf_group = <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt:= Fr, 28. Apr 2017 22:11
Betreff: VLF: DK7FC 8270.005 and DF6NM = 8270.005139

=

A= round 17 UT, DK7FC has started another carrier on 8270.005 Hz. Since 20 = UT, I am joining in on a slightly higher frequency, 8270.005 + 1/7200 Hz = (i.e. 138.89 uHz up). Compared to Stefan, I can achieve about 60% = current into 60% effective antenna height, so my ERP should be ~ 9 dB = weaker.

T= he two carriers will be resolved by a 47 uHz spectrogram. But at lower = resolution (e.g. 424 uHz), they will merge into a two-hour sinusoidal = beat pattern. The idea is to use that to indirectly measure our phase = difference, by observing the times of maxima and minima at DL0AO in = Amberg (and perhaps also in Paul's spectrogram). As both carriers are = GPS locked, the two transmitters (or rather the two near-field pickup = probe signals which are compared to GPS) will be in phase at even hours = (UT), and in antiphase at odd hours. Using the known path difference = (178 km =3D 4.9 lambda) to DL0AO, we could in principle calibrate the = phase difference of our differently built phase-feedback probes. This = could then be used in the future to obtain 2 to 3 dB directional gain in = any desired direction.

<= br>One shortcoming of the measurement may be that while the 48 km path = from myself to DL0AO is groundwave dominated, there will be a strong and = variable skywave contribution from DK7FC at 226 km. So any array = steering calculated therefrom may be incorrect during the daytime, or = for long-distance paths with skywave from both sources. It might however = be possible to account for the diurnal phase change using the = DK7FC-DF6NM colour-phase measurement from Jan = 28/29.

<= br>All the best,
Markus = (DF6NM)

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