Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.7 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS,SUBJ_ALL_CAPS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v1QMZjCh009804 for ; Sun, 26 Feb 2017 23:35:46 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1ci7Lx-0003ZO-JZ for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2017 22:31:41 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1ci7Lw-0003ZF-Ry for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2017 22:31:40 +0000 Received: from porthos.netcom.co.uk ([217.72.171.73]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1ci7Lu-0007AW-BZ for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2017 22:31:39 +0000 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=abelian.org Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=abelian.org ; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=toHOQGFjptslzDAzYOFi3L6hWHP3ubDKHlYBy2vMom4=; b=ksjs6TvUU8vnj2f3/UC6QKxlBT cdwLicVc0ObK6WhEGR+g9CL23jMD57OSyIsaCtuEQMhFRkJY6iHzL+k7XlKKzMuXazQdlJuaixejD dRcxnaYDVaj680y0LSl1bMdEfnnk2cZ2Ni/tEB/RHdlWayYapWE4XlteaQpe/PaJau6E=; Received: from i-194-106-52-83.freedom2surf.net ([194.106.52.83]:58153 helo=pn.abelian.org) by porthos.netcom.co.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.88) (envelope-from ) id 1ci7Lu-0000sf-28 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2017 22:31:38 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pn.abelian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 664FA400741 for ; Sun, 26 Feb 2017 22:31:37 +0000 (UTC) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <58B34590.3030802@posteo.de> <58B34924.6060005@posteo.de> From: Paul Nicholson Message-ID: <81b61b29-0b37-3e1c-1a42-f9153a1c7870@abelian.org> Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2017 22:31:37 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <58B34924.6060005@posteo.de> X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - porthos.netcom.co.uk X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - blacksheep.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - abelian.org X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: porthos.netcom.co.uk: authenticated_id: catchall@abelian.org X-Authenticated-Sender: porthos.netcom.co.uk: catchall@abelian.org X-Scan-Signature: 1c38f63d01970a2bf149f660c9cb2a37 Subject: Re: VLF: 16K19A? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 10731 Stefan wrote: > Why is there no mode called 16K19A? No reason why not. I can put one together by combining a couple of good rate 1/8 K=21 polynomials. I'll try to do that this week. They take a little while to test and measure performance. The excuse I needed to play with the latest 128 core PCs with 1952 Gbyte RAM. > Switching from 8K21A to 16K21A has an advantage (using the > same transmission time), as far as i understand... That's right. There is a modest gain going from rate 1/8 to rate 1/16 and there is no transmission time or memory cost. Further reduction of code rate, eg going from 1/16 to say 1/32 adds only a negligible (hard to measure) extra gain. There's a rapidly diminishing return on reducing code rate. It is better to increase constraint length but that incurs severe memory cost with Viterbi decoding and also has a diminishing return. For short messages (eg up to 3 characters) it is not necessary to use Viterbi decoding and we could make use of much longer constraint lengths. That's something else to play with. > In my recent transmissions i'm playing with the CRC value > so that the optimum list length is in a range of 100000. I've noticed your thoughtful choices of CRC length. That really is a good policy. I have a lot of performance data tabulated but not yet posted on the web pages (partly because I haven't entirely understood it all yet). I've been searching for ways to calculate performance but with only a little progress. I've got as far as being able to suggest an optimum list length which is on the signal calculator page. Longer than optimum list length increases the chance of correct decode but also increases the chance of a stronger (higher likelihood) false decode and the overall performance levels off to a constant (in other words, no further coding gain is available through increasing list length). I think there's a theoretical max 3dB coding gain through list decoding but I wouldn't like to try to back that up with a proof. One day when I think I understand all this, I'll write it up properly. -- Paul Nicholson --