Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v13DTEIL020778 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2017 14:29:16 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1cZdpm-0003z5-4D for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 03 Feb 2017 13:23:26 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1cZdpj-0003yw-Ov for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 03 Feb 2017 13:23:23 +0000 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1cZdpg-0005n5-Nz for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 03 Feb 2017 13:23:22 +0000 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B70320A09 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2017 14:23:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 3vFHcR5DCZz105v for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2017 14:23:19 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <58948447.8030503@posteo.de> Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2017 14:23:19 +0100 From: DK7FC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <159c6d4aa99-2cc9-11356@webprd-m36.mail.aol.com> <5884E0D8.1090102@abelian.org> <5885FBEE.3060408@posteo.de> <58861BDF.8010605@posteo.de> <58875792.7020302@posteo.de> <58879804.7010301@abelian.org> <5887ACEB.2000207@posteo.de> <5888EEDA.6070308@abelian.org> <588DE1EE.3050408@posteo.de> <588E25B1.8010009@abelian.org> <0af401d27d92$a83d69e0$f8b83da0$@comcast.net> <0b7201d27e1c$3df842f0$b9e8c8d0$@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <0b7201d27e1c$3df842f0$b9e8c8d0$@comcast.net> X-Scan-Signature: d63ea50e288c5ecb9bd7a86eeabe94f2 Subject: Re: ULF: EbNaut over 3 wavelengths on ULF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 10463 Hi Jim, ULF/VLF, Thanks for the simulations and plots. I watched them last night already. They seem at least to support the thought that propagation could be complex relative to 8.27 kHz and 6.47 kHz, also to 5.17 kHz where we (on the path between me and Paul) got what we've expected, about. 5.17 kHz appeared to be a bit better than 6.47 kHz because the far QRN is stronger attenuated, which is also visible on the wideband spectrograms. That theoretical complex propagation on 2.97 kHz seems to be alreday confirmed because i've got VERY good results with my loop in 140 km distance and Wolf got also very good results in 303 km distance. Then Paul should get at least a 6 dB weaker signal with his optimal oriented loops and E field addition (forming a perfectly oriented cardioid antenna). That's what we would expect. We would also expect that from the downscaling of the SNR at 5.17 kHz: 20*log(2.97/5.17) = -4.8 dB. Antenna current: 20*log(150mA/225mA)= -3.5 dB ==> The SNR should be 8.3 dB lower. Am 06.01.2017 12:33, schrieb Paul Nicholson: > Stefan wrote: > > f = 5170.000000 Hz > [...] > S/N 20.24 dB in 11.8 uHz, -63.0dB in 2.5kHz So it should still be 12 dB in 11.8 uHz. But it isn't! So there must be some propagation effects that lower the SNR drastically, like shown in your plots. On the other side that makes things very interesting :-) And, big differences can be expected just by doing QSY of a few 100 Hz. Thus, an experiment on 4.39 kHz (about) will give more informations and is probably still downscalable in the above way, if the simulations are close to reality. We will find that out!! 73, Stefan PS: Meanwhile my carrier is running since 62 hours without interruptions and phase changes. Am 03.02.2017 13:51, schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net: > Stefan and Paul, > > Attached is a 2nd-pass FDTD plot (E-field only); theoretically more accurate with some small corrections and refinements. > > The attached plot and the two FDTD plots sent yesterday represent daytime propagation over a conductive ground similar to sea water, for comparison with the NAVALEX plot (daytime, sea water) > > The NAVELEX plot suggests: ~ 3dB more signal at 2.9kHz than at 5.17 kHz (880 km) > The FDTD plot suggests: far less signal at 2.9 kHz than at 5.17 kHz (880 km) > > A benefit of FDTD analysis is inclusion of all modes, including evanescent. > > Given very limited experimental validation of propagation computational tools between 2kHz and 4kHz at distances between 100 km and 1000 km, your ULF tests may show strengths and weaknesses in the computational tools. > > 73, > > Jim AA5BW > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of hvanesce@comcast.net > Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 3:27 PM > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Subject: RE: ULF: EbNaut over 3 wavelengths on ULF > > Stefan and Paul, > > I've been unable to find any empirical validation of LWPC fidelity below 5kHz. > > Attached is a preliminary pass (E and B field amplitude vs frequency and distance) with FDTD, showing some deep nulls at frequencies and distances of interest. > > (compare with NAVELEX 0101 113 plot annotated by Stefan https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19882028/VLF/fig_02_25a.png ) The NAVALEX plot is based on an algebraic approximation [details shown in the NAVELEX document, summary of those details (and link to document), in this thread ~ 02:17, January 8, 2017] > > Empirical validation of FDTD in the 2kHz to 4kHz range is lacking but FDTD can provide good accuracy at high resolution (in f, d, E and B) given accurate h' and beta values. > The h' and beta values used for the attached FDTD plots are nominal daytime values; no telling how different the result might be for actual h' and beta during your recent tests. > On the other hand, the depth and sharpness of the nulls shown in the FDTD plots might well be relevant. > > I don’t know the attachment file size limit, so in case the limit is 100 kB or less, I will send "FDTD Plot 2 of 2 (B field)" in a message immediately following this message. > > 73, > > Jim AA5BW > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Paul Nicholson > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2017 12:26 PM > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Subject: Re: ULF: EbNaut over 3 wavelengths on ULF > > > Jim wrote: > > > Excellent diagnostic method and implementation. > > The method has some weaknesses Jim but in the absence of any artificial signals it's the best I can do. I must repeat the exercise when we next get a thunderstorm nearer to Heidelberg. Looking at the spectrum of the sferics will reveal if we have some ground/sky wave cancellation at that frequency and range. > > Stefan wrote: > > > From the known decoded EbNaut messages, what was the SNR at> Renato or on your side? > > Nothing detectable here or at Cumiana so I can't answer the question of how many days need stacking. Until there is some glimpse of a signal, it is completely unknown. I can only estimate a lower limit. > > With your estimated ERP I think something should be detectable in one day or two. But stacking two days of your recent carrier shows nothing. Even with my more conservative ERP estimate I would expect to see something of your signal. > > Between 2016-06-26 13:00 and 2016-07-31 08:00 you transmitted carrier with 30mA antenna current. I received and stacked over 34 days of carrier (about 15dB stacking gain) with no sign of signal. You estimated 100nW ERP. > > Now you can do 150mA current - about 14dB gain over July's signal. Plus, improvements here to filtering and blanking may add 2 or 3dB more. > > We can in two days exceed the stacked signal for the whole of July. Also with your higher ERP I can see the signal each day at Bielefeld to check the phase. > > I think we should try some daytime carrier repeats. Already we know there is nothing after 2 days so we will need at least > 4 days to get a hint of signal and then at least 10 days to collect enough signal for some measurements. It is surely certain that we will eventually pick up the signal after enough days. > > I'm thinking about shutting down my workstation to install an extra scratch disk which will speed up the signal search. > It's been busy for 137 days so no chance to close it down. > There are still 154 jobs running though. > > -- > Paul Nicholson > -- >