Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mailn.lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id uB4MXMWu005968 for ; Sun, 4 Dec 2016 23:33:23 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1cDfII-0005tE-II for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Dec 2016 22:30:02 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1cDfIH-0005t0-L3 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Dec 2016 22:30:01 +0000 Received: from resqmta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net ([2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:43]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1cDfID-0005DB-Uk for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Dec 2016 22:30:00 +0000 Received: from resomta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.107]) by resqmta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id DfI9cPDyBBhTgDfIAc3FCe; Sun, 04 Dec 2016 22:29:54 +0000 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=comcast.net Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20161114; t=1480890594; bh=NPdqIJJ3NswivJTcfgcGQxdgJ/gGSQw2vbNp+tkQ7hs=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=c0Z0RMqqgYwkXXMMwFRs6cVIctDWYbFvoKB+SAXkQR/zI4r6l4HBFiIRQSeqzYIit HaGS31/2/0OSXUG7w1sEupuv0dt6Hxt0cT19BXlz7ON24ZN504xONwzdWPMMrmlqYI 3vFUDD7eeVYIPylQ7/WKZruNRwjRJ3kmsv1YnvL5imhsZQiyQmEQVcRI4gU6FP4RBl KOYRa1OIc9Dv8LQ9/c2KhQP5lU3XPSYepHFkRHtQ+7l29ChBrYtURj4MZxgB4x/n7U unqrxdHMuq8OLbddxbFkXZWyrJM+0wGx+t/55vZxzbp+c7HORU2kQrTzsgr9Zbj65b WHyZpKYnM024w== Received: from Owner ([67.142.235.252]) by resomta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id DfHSc6ALiS9GmDfHicZSLw; Sun, 04 Dec 2016 22:29:52 +0000 From: To: References: <003c01d24e40$fb7d6be0$f27843a0$@comcast.net> <158cb455617-6811-5cf9@webprd-m11.mail.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <158cb455617-6811-5cf9@webprd-m11.mail.aol.com> Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 17:27:57 -0500 Message-ID: <001201d24e7d$e207db90$a61792b0$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQFK9goNv+t88wymHAhk2r1WEKZEGKIHDY+Q Content-Language: en-us X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfCkRo107f3NISjxNcB/mKxUKqKaNp4fSyJEq7X5M74FRw1/euRSbLrdOJLVVhW04zSDMTncdK4WCfYt6G+z5z+1/bjdBTcI9LoCXcoREBhtMAWkWTCoz yVdIgimM8x/MjeXyZ36PWVvmgUC8ksq0sQe2fSFFl4mOiwOsLRXTbky6 X-Scan-Signature: e6df32dd764d339f6842dfdb43a65e39 Subject: RE: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01D24E53.F9427560" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 9713 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01D24E53.F9427560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stefan, Roleof and Markus, =20 Thank you for all of the winter propagation information, it is most = interesting and very much appreciated.=20 =20 Roleof, could you mention the station that you heard from Churchill? We = visited Churchill a few years ago and would really enjoy hearing a = station from there. =20 73, =20 Jim AA5BW =20 =20 From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Markus Vester Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 2:18 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave =20 Hi Jim, I have to admit that I have no proof that the "winter anomaly" has any = effect on the lower ionosphere. As Roelof and others have indicated, = increased daytime MF / LF signal strength may rather be due to less (and = not more) buildup of absorbing D-layer ionisation during shorter = daylight hours. In addition, QRN activity tends to be lower at least in = mid latitudes. Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) =20 =20 -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: hvanesce An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: So, 4 Dez 2016 4:15 pm Betreff: RE: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave Markus and Stefan, =20 Thank you for the winter anomaly reference and example. =20 Stefan originally referred to 630m and Markus=E2=80=99 comments did not = specifically ascribe the anomaly itself (just groundwave distance) to = VLF but I am curious: is the anomaly evident at VLF? Reliable at VLF? My = question relates to the wiki description of an F2 layer effect, and I = wondered if F2 (and hence the anomaly) is perhaps significant in = nighttime VLF propagation, or if perhaps there is also some process = similar to the F2 winter anomaly in the D layer which would affect VLF. = Do either of you have thoughts on the winter anomaly at VLF frequencies? =20 73, =20 Jim AA5BW =20 =20 From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = ] On Behalf Of Markus = Vester Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 7:09 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave =20 Hi Andy, Stefan, daytime propagation on VLF/LF beyond a few100 km (and likely also on MF) = is dominated by ionospheric reflections, rather than groundwave. Despite = lower solar elevation on winter days, the ionisation is actually = stronger than in summer. This effect is known as the "winter anomaly": = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionosphere . =20 Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: F6CNI - Andy - JN19QB An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: So, 4 Dez 2016 12:30 pm Betreff: Re: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave Hello Stefan. Sorry but I do not understand. =20 Can you explain to us scientifically why you said that there is a difference enter winter and summer for day time = groundwave mode of propagation ? =20 Also, an other question : can you tell us honestly which is your exact = EIRP transmitting power, because on day time groundwave there is not = usual to have a WSPR2 report on the 630 meters band of =E2=80=9317 dB = S/N over 1500 km (Remember that he legal maximum power in DK is 1 Watt = EIRP, and nobody can ignore the law ). =20 73 Andy. =20 =20 From: DK7FC =20 Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 11:52 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave =20 Hi MF,=20 I just sent a single WSPR block and got the following results from = distances above 300km. This is typical for the winter season. 73, Stefan 27 spots: Timestamp Call MHz SNR Drift Grid Pwr Reporter RGrid km az 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475682=20 -20=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 LA2XPA=20 JP33wi=20 1548=20 358=20 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475685=20 -17=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 OH1TSM=20 KP11db=20 1546=20 28=20 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475682=20 -6=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 LA8AV=20 JO59cs=20 1153=20 4=20 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475682=20 -12=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 LA6LU=20 JO59eq=20 1145=20 5=20 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475682=20 +2=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 LA3EQ=20 JO28xj=20 1012=20 351=20 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475682=20 -19=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 G3XKR=20 IO70ux=20 940=20 285=20 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475682=20 -19=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 SP5XSB=20 KO02ld=20 911=20 66=20 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475683=20 -6=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 G8HUH=20 IO81mg=20 851=20 288=20 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475674=20 -19=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 M0FMT=20 IO91ux=20 693=20 297=20 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475622=20 -12=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 G0VQH=20 JO02fe=20 655=20 301=20 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475682=20 -23=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 IW4DXW=20 JN64bw=20 563=20 151=20 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475684=20 +1=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 PA0RDT=20 JO11tm=20 428=20 305=20 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475686=20 -8=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 PA7EY=20 JO22jj=20 428=20 322=20 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475682=20 -4=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 PE1RKT=20 JO22fb=20 418=20 316=20 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475684=20 -15=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 PA3ANG=20 JO32am=20 390=20 332=20 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475686=20 -12=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 DL-SWL=20 JO52hp=20 381=20 20=20 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475681=20 +12=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 DH5RAE=20 JN68qv=20 345=20 98=20 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475682=20 +1=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 PI4THT=20 JO32kf=20 336=20 338=20 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475682=20 -12=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 PA0MLC=20 JO31aw=20 335=20 327=20 2016-12-04 10:46=20 DK7FC=20 0.475682=20 +7=20 0=20 JN49ik=20 1=20 DJ0ABR=20 JN68nt=20 329=20 101=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01D24E53.F9427560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Stefan, = Roleof and Markus,

 

Thank = you for all of the winter propagation information, it is most = interesting and very much appreciated.

 

Roleof, could you mention the station that you = heard from Churchill? We visited Churchill a few years ago and would = really enjoy hearing a station from there.

 

73,

 

Jim = AA5BW

 

 

From:= = owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Markus = Vester
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 2:18 PM
To: = rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: Daytime MF = prpagation beyond the groundwave

 

H= i Jim,

I have to admit that I have no proof that the "winter = anomaly" has any effect on the lower ionosphere. As Roelof and = others have indicated, increased daytime MF / LF signal = strength may rather be due to less (and not more) buildup of absorbing = D-layer ionisation during shorter daylight hours. In = addition, QRN activity tends to be lower at least = in mid latitudes.

Best 73,
Markus = (DF6NM)  
  

-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche = Mitteilung-----
Von: hvanesce <hvanesce@comcast.net>
An: = rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= >
Verschickt: So, 4 Dez 2016 4:15 pm
Betreff: RE: LF: = Daytime MF prpagation beyond the = groundwave

Markus and Stefan,

 

Thank you for the winter anomaly reference and  = example.

 

Stefan originally referred to 630m and Markus=E2=80=99 comments did = not specifically ascribe the anomaly itself (just groundwave distance) = to VLF but I am curious: is the anomaly evident at VLF? Reliable at VLF? = My question relates to the wiki description of an F2 layer effect, and I = wondered if F2 (and hence the anomaly) is perhaps significant in = nighttime VLF propagation, or if perhaps there is also some process = similar to the F2 winter anomaly in the D layer which would affect VLF. = Do either of you have thoughts on the winter anomaly at VLF = frequencies?

 

73,

 

Jim AA5BW

 

 

= From:= owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_= group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Markus = Vester
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 7:09 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=
Subject: Re: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the = groundwave

 

H= i Andy, Stefan,

daytime propagation on VLF/LF beyond a = few100 km (and likely also on MF) is dominated by ionospheric = reflections, rather than groundwave. Despite lower solar elevation = on winter days, the ionisation is actually stronger than in summer. = This effect is known as the "winter anomaly": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionosphere = .  

Best 73,
Markus = (DF6NM)

-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: F6CNI - = Andy - JN19QB <f6cni@orange.fr>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: = So, 4 Dez 2016 12:30 pm
Betreff: Re: LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond = the groundwave

Hello Stefan. = Sorry but I do not understand.

 

Can you explain = to us scientifically why

you said that = there is a difference enter winter and summer for day time groundwave = mode of propagation ?

 

Also, an other = question : can you tell us honestly which is your exact EIRP = transmitting power, because on day time groundwave there is not usual to = have a WSPR2 report on the 630 meters band of =E2=80=9317 dB S/N over = 1500 km (Remember that he legal maximum power in DK is 1 Watt EIRP, and = nobody can ignore the law ).

 

73 = Andy.

 

 

= From:= DK7FC

= Sent:= Sunday, December 4, 2016 11:52 AM

= Subject:= LF: Daytime MF prpagation beyond the groundwave

 

Hi MF, =

I just sent a single WSPR block and got the following results = from distances above 300km.
 This is typical = for the winter season.

73, = Stefan

27 = spots:

Timestamp

Call

MHz

SNR

Drift

Grid

Pwr

Reporter

RGrid

km

az

2016-12-04 10:46

DK7FC =

0.475682 =

-20 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

LA2XPA =

JP33wi =

1548 =

358 =

2016-12-04 10:46 =

DK7FC =

0.475685 =

-17 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

OH1TSM =

KP11db =

1546 =

28 =

2016-12-04 10:46 =

DK7FC =

0.475682 =

-6 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

LA8AV =

JO59cs =

1153 =

4 =

2016-12-04 10:46 =

DK7FC =

0.475682 =

-12 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

LA6LU =

JO59eq =

1145 =

5 =

2016-12-04 10:46 =

DK7FC =

0.475682 =

+2 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

LA3EQ =

JO28xj =

1012 =

351 =

2016-12-04 10:46 =

DK7FC =

0.475682 =

-19 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

G3XKR =

IO70ux =

940 =

285 =

2016-12-04 10:46 =

DK7FC =

0.475682 =

-19 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

SP5XSB =

KO02ld =

911 =

66 =

2016-12-04 10:46 =

DK7FC =

0.475683 =

-6 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

G8HUH =

IO81mg =

851 =

288 =

2016-12-04 10:46 =

DK7FC =

0.475674 =

-19 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

M0FMT =

IO91ux =

693 =

297 =

2016-12-04 10:46 =

DK7FC =

0.475622 =

-12 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

G0VQH =

JO02fe =

655 =

301 =

2016-12-04 10:46 =

DK7FC =

0.475682 =

-23 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

IW4DXW =

JN64bw =

563 =

151 =

2016-12-04 10:46 =

DK7FC =

0.475684 =

+1 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

PA0RDT =

JO11tm =

428 =

305 =

2016-12-04 10:46 =

DK7FC =

0.475686 =

-8 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

PA7EY =

JO22jj =

428 =

322 =

2016-12-04 10:46 =

DK7FC =

0.475682 =

-4 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

PE1RKT =

JO22fb =

418 =

316 =

2016-12-04 10:46 =

DK7FC =

0.475684 =

-15 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

PA3ANG =

JO32am =

390 =

332 =

2016-12-04 10:46 =

DK7FC =

0.475686 =

-12 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

DL-SWL =

JO52hp =

381 =

20 =

2016-12-04 10:46 =

DK7FC =

0.475681 =

+12 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

DH5RAE =

JN68qv =

345 =

98 =

2016-12-04 10:46 =

DK7FC =

0.475682 =

+1 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

PI4THT =

JO32kf =

336 =

338 =

2016-12-04 10:46 =

DK7FC =

0.475682 =

-12 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

PA0MLC =

JO31aw =

335 =

327 =

2016-12-04 10:46 =

DK7FC =

0.475682 =

+7 =

0 =

JN49ik =

1 =

DJ0ABR =

JN68nt =

329 =

101 =

 

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01D24E53.F9427560--