Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1481; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, FORGED_RCVD_HELO,RATWARE_GECKO_BUILD,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id uAG8cjak026708 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 09:38:45 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1c6veu-0004mA-G1 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 08:33:32 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1c6vet-0004m1-O5 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 08:33:31 +0000 Received: from porthos.netcom.co.uk ([217.72.171.73]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1c6ver-0003oe-8N for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 08:33:30 +0000 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=abelian.org Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=abelian.org ; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=tTbfE9DpruommRBj0o1esZpKb703HzlRpL1s3IuPapE=; b=ZsINitji+Uf3WMM7IPg5xJHMHZ JHJh6w+mCE5F40yVTgxP5V1Iw81ekV18X8+8hMQWAPI/W+JFUW0aaPNrPbXIMFAOKRlZJ2KkiJkUB XJ3vEeqvIYES5PYbDlRe+lsXNklv71w6ZqprRc0cFzMMI9FeDKXABepg4H7KoybsDCWY=; Received: from i-194-106-52-83.freedom2surf.net ([194.106.52.83]:47893 helo=pn.abelian.org) by porthos.netcom.co.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1c6vep-0002ya-I5 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 08:33:27 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pn.abelian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB188400111 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 08:33:26 +0000 (UTC) To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <154c32c4dba-373a-24653@webprd-m58.mail.aol.com> <5818DDAB.7000804@abelian.org> <5819E3AA.3020906@posteo.de> <581A452F.6060506@abelian.org> <581A4BC6.9030106@abelian.org> <581A541E.9050406@abelian.org> <581A8098.8050909@posteo.de> <581C3027.8050003@abelian.org> <581C8660.1070709@posteo.de> <581C90C7.5030809@abelian.org> <581C95BC.6010602@posteo.de> <581DA8E4.5010701@abelian.org> <581DB9C0.10602@posteo.de> <581DCF2E.5090902@abelian.org> <581F9797.9060709@abelian.org> <5824A47D.3060108@posteo.de> <58260EC4.70903@abelian.org> <58261368.60901@posteo.de> <58261772.3050508@abelian.org> <5826BF91.6070907@abelian.org> <5826DB6E.1060000@abelian.org> <58276523.4000204@abelian.org> <5829D9E1.2020801@posteo.de> <582A0BF2.5070101@abelian.org> <582AB6CD.5090603@abelian.org> <582B12B2.7080708@posteo.de> <582B3823.8090504@abelian.org> <582B4466.5070106@abelian.org> <582B6E8B.4090207@posteo.de> <117DEE4AF4DD44F59CB 455664AD7695B@gnat> <046701d23fb3$ab36d900$01a48b00$@comcast.net> From: Paul Nicholson Message-ID: <582C19D6.5080808@abelian.org> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 08:33:26 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <046701d23fb3$ab36d900$01a48b00$@comcast.net> X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - porthos.netcom.co.uk X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - blacksheep.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - abelian.org X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: porthos.netcom.co.uk: authenticated_id: catchall@abelian.org X-Authenticated-Sender: porthos.netcom.co.uk: catchall@abelian.org X-Scan-Signature: c9c533f07c530c146486ecf89a00ebb1 Subject: Re: VLF: EbNaut transmissions on lower frequencies?, pre-tests: 6.47kHz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.11 Content-Length: 2413 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 9477 Stefan wrote: > What is the most distant location from where a stream > is available? Texas vlf25 (8491km) but first you must reach Virginia vlf35 (6819km). Of course I already checked vlf35 summing five days of 'TEST' but not a trace. > What's the result of 15 th and 11th to 15 th on your side? Message 'TEST' 8K19A 60 second symbols 11th to 15th at Todmorden. All decoded with constant reference phase. Straight summing, no amplitude or phase adjustment: Eb/N0 S/N Phase relative noise RMS 11th Nov 3.9 -62.5 -141.2 2.56 12th Nov 4.9 -59.7 -134.3 2.01 11th + 12th 6.6 -58.1 -137.5 13th Nov 8.5 -55.6 -138.5 1.07 11th to 13th 8.6 -55.2 -137.8 14th 3.5 -61.3 -136.8 2.48 11th to 14th 9.9 -54.3 -137.6 15th 1.1 -64.0 -139.9 3.59 11th to 15th 8.5 -54.4 -138.0 15th was noisy and adding it to the sum has reduced the S/N. Summing after each day normalised to relative noise RMS 1.0: Eb/N0 S/N Phase 11th to 12th 7.5 -57.9 -137.1 11th to 13th 9.6 -53.8 -137.8 11th to 14th 10.4 -53.1 -137.6 11th to 15th 10.7 -52.9 -137.8 By normalising each day, a bad day may not add much, but it is less likely to subtract from the total. From now on when coherently summing, I will routinely normalise each contribution by dividing by its overall RMS value. There is a diminishing return here: With ideal stable conditions, doubling the number of transmissions adds 3dB. After many days, each additional day only adds a tiny increment. Gain over a single day is up to log(days)/log(2) * 3dB For example 7dB for 5 days, which is very close to what we are seeing with the normalised summing. Trying to predict day to day VLF propagation is on a par with predicting the weather! LWPC is at best only as good as the ionospheric model we give it to use and we can only expect it to provide a rough idea of received signal level and day/night phase change. Long distances from Europe are a real challenge. T/A east to west is fighting against anisotropy - a strong effect at VLF. Going further east is overland therefore much more attenuation. N/S paths are hard work too, long overland path. Very few sferics rxed here from South Africa but lots from South America. Later I'll fire up LWPC and plot some examples of long distance paths. -- Paul Nicholson --