Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1481; Body=1 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, HTML_90_100,HTML_MESSAGE,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id u6ICTPRd003941 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2016 14:29:25 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1bP7Wg-0002fU-Qg for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2016 13:19:58 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1bP7Wf-0002fL-Qu for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2016 13:19:57 +0100 Received: from smtp10.smtpout.orange.fr ([80.12.242.132] helo=smtp.smtpout.orange.fr) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1bP7Wd-0005ip-3k for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2016 13:19:56 +0100 Received: from PCMF ([83.192.157.191]) by mwinf5d45 with ME id LCKq1t00A483GHP03CKq1D; Mon, 18 Jul 2016 14:19:53 +0200 X-ME-Helo: PCMF X-ME-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 14:19:53 +0200 X-ME-IP: 83.192.157.191 Message-ID: <1830460FE57B489BBE700FF89CD01F1F@PCMF> From: "F6CNI - Andy - JN19QB" To: References: <250DC95D596441FEA4029B7265966ACD@AGB> <578A5CA6.18390.1DCC53B@mike.dennison.ntlworld.com> <836EFD989B9B4912A5132BA0782F062D@PCMF> In-Reply-To: <836EFD989B9B4912A5132BA0782F062D@PCMF> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 14:19:49 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 16.4.3528.331 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V16.4.3528.331 X-Scan-Signature: 784048591cf3921310d30e86b72ae360 Subject: Re: LF: G3XDV IO91VT M0DSZ IO82LS Novel s/n / time 136/op32 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01D1E0FF.71983DA0" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.11 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 8396 Ce message est composi et au format MIME. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01D1E0FF.71983DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all. I had this test reports with G3XIZ. 3 reports on day time around 1100 TU = and others at evening from 1820 to 2004 TU. For this RX test, the = antenna was a 9 m base loaded vertical tube without top hat, RX FT1000MP = and no preamplifier. As expected, the evening G3XIZ S/N computed by the WSPR at 422 km = distance shows a regular drop. You can see also that the reports around = 1100 TU gave 10 to 15 dB better S/N. Timestamp Call MHz SNR Drift Grid Pwr Reporter RGrid km az =20 2016-07-16 20:04=20 G3XIZ=20 0.137445=20 -25=20 0=20 IO92ub=20 0.05=20 F6CNI=20 JN19qb=20 422=20 141=20 =20 2016-07-16 19:56=20 G3XIZ=20 0.137445=20 -25=20 0=20 IO92ub=20 0.05=20 F6CNI=20 JN19qb=20 422=20 141=20 =20 2016-07-16 19:48=20 G3XIZ=20 0.137445=20 -24=20 0=20 IO92ub=20 0.05=20 F6CNI=20 JN19qb=20 422=20 141=20 =20 2016-07-16 19:38=20 G3XIZ=20 0.137445=20 -22=20 0=20 IO92ub=20 0.05=20 F6CNI=20 JN19qb=20 422=20 141=20 =20 2016-07-16 19:32=20 G3XIZ=20 0.137445=20 -22=20 0=20 IO92ub=20 0.05=20 F6CNI=20 JN19qb=20 422=20 141=20 =20 2016-07-16 19:26=20 G3XIZ=20 0.137445=20 -21=20 -1=20 IO92ub=20 0.05=20 F6CNI=20 JN19qb=20 422=20 141=20 =20 2016-07-16 19:18=20 G3XIZ=20 0.137445=20 -21=20 -1=20 IO92ub=20 0.05=20 F6CNI=20 JN19qb=20 422=20 141=20 =20 2016-07-16 19:08=20 G3XIZ=20 0.137444=20 -20=20 0=20 IO92ub=20 0.05=20 F6CNI=20 JN19qb=20 422=20 141=20 =20 2016-07-16 19:02=20 G3XIZ=20 0.137444=20 -20=20 0=20 IO92ub=20 0.05=20 F6CNI=20 JN19qb=20 422=20 141=20 =20 2016-07-16 18:56=20 G3XIZ=20 0.137444=20 -20=20 0=20 IO92ub=20 0.05=20 F6CNI=20 JN19qb=20 422=20 141=20 =20 2016-07-16 18:50=20 G3XIZ=20 0.137444=20 -20=20 0=20 IO92ub=20 0.05=20 F6CNI=20 JN19qb=20 422=20 141=20 =20 2016-07-16 18:40=20 G3XIZ=20 0.137444=20 -19=20 0=20 IO92ub=20 0.05=20 F6CNI=20 JN19qb=20 422=20 141=20 =20 2016-07-16 18:30=20 G3XIZ=20 0.137444=20 -19=20 0=20 IO92ub=20 0.05=20 F6CNI=20 JN19qb=20 422=20 141=20 =20 2016-07-16 18:20=20 G3XIZ=20 0.137444=20 -19=20 0=20 IO92ub=20 0.05=20 F6CNI=20 JN19qb=20 422=20 141=20 =20 2016-07-16 11:00=20 G3XIZ=20 0.137444=20 -12=20 -1=20 IO92ub=20 0.05=20 F6CNI=20 JN19qb=20 422=20 141=20 =20 2016-07-16 10:50=20 G3XIZ=20 0.137444=20 -9=20 -1=20 IO92ub=20 0.05=20 F6CNI=20 JN19qb=20 422=20 141=20 =20 2016-07-16 10:42=20 G3XIZ=20 0.137444=20 -10=20 0=20 IO92ub=20 0.05=20 F6CNI=20 JN19qb=20 422=20 141=20 =20 I made 3 mesurement of the noise level using my Peggelmesser SPM3 : a.. At 1050 TU : 40 =B5V band noise, the sun site in my QTH was = 59=B0 ; b.. At 1830 TU : 120 =B5V band noise, the sun site in my QTH was 10=B0 = ; c.. At 1956 TU : 250 =B5V band noise, the sun site in my QTH was = -3=B0. Conclusions : a.. The signal level stay the same, but the band noise increasing = explain the drop in the S/N computed by WSPR ; b.. At 422 km the site angle for a single hoop is about 45=B0. That is = over the value of the pseudo Brewster angle on that frequency, and the = back return efficiency is below 10 dB ! c.. The increasing in noise is due to the drop D layer absorption. Well, that is not a scoop ! Have a look at the 30 / 40 years ago LowFERs = States experimentations on the 1875 meters band and after on the 1750 = meters band. Some very good informations about that was published in old = issues of QST and more in CQ magazine. 73 de Andy. From: F6CNI - Andy - JN19QB=20 Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 7:03 PM To: RSGB LF Group=20 Subject: LF: G3XDV IO91VT M0DSZ IO82LS Novel s/n / time 136/op32 Yes I agree 100 % with you Mike. Remember : in the years 1999 to 2003 there was a lot of CW activity on = LF, and daytime was the best for QSO up to 800 / 1000 km. At night, only = some more distant QSO can be acheived with the help of layer reflexion = as OH1TN... Below about 500 km on LF the level signal stay about the = same on day or night, but the noise level increase after evening, that = is especially sensible on summer, so the S/N be not so good.=20 Of course, that is a bit different on the MF band even My friend F5WK at = 90 km gives me about 6 to 8 db Better S/N on daytime than on night, when = I am transmitting WSPR 2 on 630 m band. 73 de Andy. -----Message d'origine-----=20 From: Mike Dennison=20 Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 6:11 PM=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: G3XDV IO91VT M0DSZ IO82LS Novel s/n / time 136/op32=20 Well, I think the clue is in the phrase "signal to noise". The noise=20 level is much greater after dark than in the daytime, especially at=20 this time of year, so for the same signal strength the S/N is poorer=20 at night. Mike, G3XDV =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01D1E0FF.71983DA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = all.

 

I had = this test=20 reports with G3XIZ. 3 reports on day time around 1100 TU and others at = evening=20 from 1820 to 2004 TU. For this RX test, the antenna was a 9 m base = loaded=20 vertical tube without top hat, RX FT1000MP and no preamplifier.

 

As=20 expected, the evening  = G3XIZ S/N=20 computed by the WSPR at 422 km distance shows a regular drop. = You can=20 see also that the reports around 1100 TU gave  10 to 15 dB better S/N.

 

 

Timestamp

Call

MHz

SNR

Drift

Grid

Pwr

Reporter

RGrid

km

az

2016-07-16 = 20:04=20

G3XIZ =

0.137445 =

-25=20

0=20

IO92ub =

0.05=20

F6CNI =

JN19qb =

422=20

141=20

2016-07-16 = 19:56=20

G3XIZ =

0.137445 =

-25=20

0=20

IO92ub =

0.05=20

F6CNI =

JN19qb =

422=20

141=20

2016-07-16 = 19:48=20

G3XIZ =

0.137445 =

-24=20

0=20

IO92ub =

0.05=20

F6CNI =

JN19qb =

422=20

141=20

2016-07-16 = 19:38=20

G3XIZ =

0.137445 =

-22=20

0=20

IO92ub =

0.05=20

F6CNI =

JN19qb =

422=20

141=20

2016-07-16 = 19:32=20

G3XIZ =

0.137445 =

-22=20

0=20

IO92ub =

0.05=20

F6CNI =

JN19qb =

422=20

141=20

2016-07-16 = 19:26=20

G3XIZ =

0.137445 =

-21=20

-1=20

IO92ub =

0.05=20

F6CNI =

JN19qb =

422=20

141=20

2016-07-16 = 19:18=20

G3XIZ =

0.137445 =

-21=20

-1=20

IO92ub =

0.05=20

F6CNI =

JN19qb =

422=20

141=20

2016-07-16 = 19:08=20

G3XIZ =

0.137444 =

-20=20

0=20

IO92ub =

0.05=20

F6CNI =

JN19qb =

422=20

141=20

2016-07-16 = 19:02=20

G3XIZ =

0.137444 =

-20=20

0=20

IO92ub =

0.05=20

F6CNI =

JN19qb =

422=20

141=20

2016-07-16 = 18:56=20

G3XIZ =

0.137444 =

-20=20

0=20

IO92ub =

0.05=20

F6CNI =

JN19qb =

422=20

141=20

2016-07-16 = 18:50=20

G3XIZ =

0.137444 =

-20=20

0=20

IO92ub =

0.05=20

F6CNI =

JN19qb =

422=20

141=20

2016-07-16 = 18:40=20

G3XIZ =

0.137444 =

-19=20

0=20

IO92ub =

0.05=20

F6CNI =

JN19qb =

422=20

141=20

2016-07-16 = 18:30=20

G3XIZ =

0.137444 =

-19=20

0=20

IO92ub =

0.05=20

F6CNI =

JN19qb =

422=20

141=20

2016-07-16 = 18:20=20

G3XIZ =

0.137444 =

-19=20

0=20

IO92ub =

0.05=20

F6CNI =

JN19qb =

422=20

141=20

2016-07-16 = 11:00=20

G3XIZ =

0.137444 =

-12=20

-1=20

IO92ub =

0.05=20

F6CNI =

JN19qb =

422=20

141=20

2016-07-16 = 10:50=20

G3XIZ =

0.137444 =

-9=20

-1=20

IO92ub =

0.05=20

F6CNI =

JN19qb =

422=20

141=20

2016-07-16 = 10:42=20

G3XIZ =

0.137444 =

-10=20

0=20

IO92ub =

0.05=20

F6CNI =

JN19qb =

422=20

141=20

 

I made 3 mesurement = of the noise=20 level using my Peggelmesser SPM3 :

 

  • At 1050 TU : 40 =B5V  =  band noise, the sun site in = my QTH was=20 59=B0 ;
  • At 1830 TU : 120 =B5V band noise, the sun site in my QTH was = 10=B0 ;
  • At 1956 TU : 250 =B5V band noise, the sun site in my QTH was=20 -3=B0.

 

Conclusions=20 :

 

  • The signal level stay the same, but the band noise increasing = explain the=20 drop in the S/N computed by WSPR ;
  • At 422 km the site angle for a single hoop is about 45=B0. That = is over the=20 value of the pseudo Brewster angle on that frequency, and the back = return=20 efficiency is below 10 dB !
  • The increasing in noise is due to the drop D layer=20 absorption.

 

Well, that is not a = scoop ! Have=20 a look at the 30 / 40 years ago LowFERs States experimentations on the = 1875=20 meters band and after on the 1750 meters band. Some very good = informations about=20 that was published in old issues of QST and more in CQ magazine.

 

73 de Andy.

 

 
From:=20 F6CNI - Andy = - JN19QB=20
Sent: = Saturday, July=20 16, 2016 7:03 PM
To: RSGB LF Group
Subject: = LF: G3XDV=20 IO91VT M0DSZ IO82LS Novel s/n / time 136/op32
 
 
Yes I agree 100 % with you Mike.
 
Remember : in the years 1999 to 2003 there was a = lot of CW=20 activity on LF, and daytime was the best for QSO up to 800 / 1000 km. At = night,=20 only some more distant QSO can be acheived with the help of layer = reflexion as=20 OH1TN... Below about 500 km on LF the level signal stay about the same = on day or=20 night, but the noise level increase after evening, that is especially = sensible=20 on summer, so the S/N be not so good.
 
Of course, that is a bit different on the MF band = even My=20 friend F5WK at 90 km gives me about 6 to 8 db Better S/N on daytime than = on=20 night, when I am transmitting WSPR 2 on 630 m band.
 
73 de Andy.
 
 
-----Message d'origine-----
From: Mike Dennison
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 6:11 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: G3XDV IO91VT M0DSZ IO82LS Novel s/n / time = 136/op32
 
Well, I think the clue is in the phrase "signal to noise". The = noise
level is much greater after dark than in the daytime, especially at =
this time of year, so for the same signal strength the S/N is = poorer
at night.
 
Mike, G3XDV
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 
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