Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1290; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, FORGED_RCVD_HELO,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id u0DADtp5010647 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2016 11:13:55 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1aJINV-0002I2-Lc for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 13 Jan 2016 10:10:09 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1aJINV-0002Ht-6q for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 13 Jan 2016 10:10:09 +0000 Received: from rhcavuit01.kulnet.kuleuven.be ([134.58.240.129] helo=cavuit01.kulnet.kuleuven.be) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1aJIMU-0006i1-V0 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 13 Jan 2016 10:10:08 +0000 X-KULeuven-Envelope-From: rik.strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be X-KULeuven-Scanned: Found to be clean X-KULeuven-ID: 875E7138098.AA353 X-KULeuven-Information: Katholieke Universiteit Leuven Received: from icts-p-smtps-1.cc.kuleuven.be (icts-p-smtps-1e.kulnet.kuleuven.be [134.58.240.33]) by cavuit01.kulnet.kuleuven.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 875E7138098 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2016 11:08:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from ICTS-S-HUB4.luna.kuleuven.be (icts-s-hub4.luna.kuleuven.be [10.112.9.18]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by icts-p-smtps-1.cc.kuleuven.be (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84E0A40A8 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2016 11:08:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from ICTS-S-MBX1.luna.kuleuven.be ([fe80::edaf:341f:90e:f70e]) by ICTS-S-HUB4.luna.kuleuven.be ([fe80::c11b:83f0:c46c:c366%26]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Wed, 13 Jan 2016 11:08:51 +0100 X-Kuleuven: This mail passed the K.U.Leuven mailcluster From: Rik Strobbe To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Thread-Topic: LF: ERP - EIRP - PAR... Some comments. Thread-Index: AQHRS8LG0AZR6cDNdkuXJT6Ju9WJlp75Ij0AgAAZkIU= Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 10:08:50 +0000 Message-ID: <7E7DFBB4D102A04DB5ADC88D66628A4A444ADE01@ICTS-S-MBX1.luna.kuleuven.be> References: <7E7DFBB4D102A04DB5ADC88D66628A4A444AD460@ICTS-S-MBX1.luna.kuleuven.be> <8D319CF354F3AA6-530-5191A9@webmail-vd006.sysops.aol.com> <7E7DFBB4D102A04DB5ADC88D66628A4A444AD4C0@ICTS-S-MBX1.luna.kuleuven.be> ,<93934EA1-1906-478E-A170-E93895338F57@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <93934EA1-1906-478E-A170-E93895338F57@gmail.com> Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-GB, en-US Content-Language: nl-BE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.112.11.48] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-HELO-Warning: Remote host 134.58.240.129 (rhcavuit01.kulnet.kuleuven.be) used invalid HELO/EHLO cavuit01.kulnet.kuleuven.be - verification failed X-Scan-Signature: c61917eaf8bc8733d7e85540486fff22 Subject: RE: LF: ERP - EIRP - PAR... Some comments. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7E7DFBB4D102A04DB5ADC88D66628A4A444ADE01ICTSSMBX1lunaku_" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 6297 --_000_7E7DFBB4D102A04DB5ADC88D66628A4A444ADE01ICTSSMBX1lunaku_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, Andy, indeed: "Administrations may increase this limit of e.i.r.p. to 5 W in port= ions of their territory which are at a distance of over 800 km from the bor= ders of .. " It is up to the national authorities wether they have one power limit for t= he entire country, or they make regional differences. 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T ________________________________________ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= ] namens John Rabson [john.rabson07@gmail.com] Verzonden: woensdag 13 januari 2016 10:32 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: Re: LF: ERP - EIRP - PAR... Some comments. Andy, I wonder if you have slightly misinterpreted the outcome of WRC-12. I think= the passage that Rik quoted shows that we can still have the full 5 W if w= e are more than 379 km north of the French Mediterranean coast (800-621). D= o you agree? 73 John F5VLF > On 10 Jan 2016, at 17:15, F6CNI - Andy - JN19QB wrote: > > Hi all. > > I agree 100% with RIK. > > Yes, and in France the EIRP limit is 1 Watt only, because the minimum dis= tance from the south coast in France to Algeria is below 800 km (621 km exa= ctly). > > This 1 Watt EIRP means about 0.6 Watt ERP (In France the ERP is call PAR = =93Puissance Apparente Rayonn=E9e=94), due to the 2.14 dB isotropic gain of= a monopole over a perfect ground. Even if the ground is not perfect (outsi= de of the main lobe formation, that is the begining of the Fraunhofer zone)= , a 2 db value is a reasonable choice. > > If you have a very good antenna ( i.e. 30 meters vertical part, a large t= op hat capacitance, and a good ground system, your antenna has around 10% e= ffeciency), you need only 6 Watts output TX to have 1 W EIRP. But using a s= hort vertical without top hat and not good ground (perhaps 0.1% efficiency)= you need a 600 Watts TX to reach the legal limit. HI ! > > On the way : yes, on MF and LF bands it is a good choice to show your EIR= P power. > > 73 de Andy F6CNI. > > > From: Rik Strobbe > Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 4:36 PM > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Subject: RE: LF: RE: JT9 actvity... > > Hi Markus, > > not everywhere! > > The outcome of WRC-12 was: > "The maximum equivalent isotropically radiated power (e.i.r.p.) of statio= ns in the amateur service using frequencies in the band 472-479 kHz shall n= ot exceed 1 W. Administrations may increase this limit of e.i.r.p. to 5 W i= n portions of their territory which are at a distance of over 800 km from t= he borders of Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Belarus, China, C= omoros, Djibouti, Egypt, United Arab Emirates, the Russian Federation, Iran= (Islamic Republic of), Iraq, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, M= orocco, Mauritania, Oman, Uzbekistan, Qatar, Syrian Arab Republic, Kyrgyzst= an, Somalia, Sudan, Tunisia, Ukraine and Yemen. In this frequency band, sta= tions in the amateur service shall not cause harmful interference to, or cl= aim protection from, stations of the aeronautical radionavigation service." > > In Belgium the power limit is 5W EIRP (3 W ERP), I believe this is also t= he case in the Netherland, UK and Ireland. > > But you are right about the saturation. With the right antenna (height) i= t is easy to produce many 10's W ERP with a few 100W TX power. > > 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T > > Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.o= rg] namens Markus Vester [markusvester@aol.com] > Verzonden: zondag 10 januari 2016 16:03 > Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Onderwerp: Re: LF: RE: JT9 actvity... > > > Note however that the power scale saturates at 1 W ERP, which is (by defi= nition) the largest power an amateur can possibly radiate on LF and MF ;-) > > Best 73, > Markus (DF6NM) > > > -----Urspr=FCngliche Mitteilung----- > Von: Rik Strobbe > An: rsgb_lf_group > Verschickt: So, 10 Jan 2016 3:42 pm > Betreff: LF: RE: JT9 actvity... > Hello Szigy, > > regarding the declared power level in WSPR: Most stations declare their E= RP, not > > PA output. > > > > > > 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > Van: > owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] > > namens Szigy [ > yo2is@wa7v.ampr.org] > > Verzonden: zaterdag 9 januari 2016 20:22 > > > Aan: > rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > > Onderwerp: LF: JT9 actvity... > > > > > > From: YO2IS > > Hello from KN05ps, > > > was pleased to take part in the 8 ian JT9 activity. > > > Lot of signals received, propagation was similar to 2m Es ! > > > very short openings from unexpected QTF's. > > > Nice QSO with DG3LV in JO53, IZ7SLZ responded to my CQ he was > > > a solid -23 then nil. Received again OR7T -27, we had a nice > > > QSO a day before, also wkd DC1RJJ who responded to my CQ !!. > > > CWNR, several times IW4DXW up to -24 and DF7FC -20 he often is > > > reporting my WSPR-2 nil in JT9... > > > My TVRT / IRF540 had only 20 W out into the 41m sloping wire. > > > it seems that the IC-7000 is not as bad for reception on LF / MF. > > > Surprised also by the WSPR-2 results, litle confused with the > > > received signal levels versus de declared power dBm! are real ?... > > > Enjoy the good winter conditions. > > > 73 & DX, Szigy.=FF=FE?=FF=FE? > john.rabson07@gmail.com Researching history of RABSON, BLACKSHAW, GAUNTLETT, VERLANDER and ROBSONNE --_000_7E7DFBB4D102A04DB5ADC88D66628A4A444ADE01ICTSSMBX1lunaku_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

John, Andy,

indeed: "Administrations may increase this= limit of e.i.r.p. to 5 W in portions of their territory which are at a distance of over 800 km = from the borders of .. "
It is up to the national authorities wether they have one power limit for t= he entire country, or they make regional differences.

 

73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T


________________________________________
Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= ] namens John Rabson [john.rabson07@gmail.com]
Verzonden: woensdag 13 januari 2016 10:32
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp: Re: LF: ERP - EIRP - PAR... Some comments.

Andy,

I wonder if you have slightly misinterpreted the outcome of WRC-12. I think= the passage that Rik quoted shows that we can still have the full 5 W if w= e are more than 379 km north of the French Mediterranean coast (800-621). D= o you agree?

73 John F5VLF

> On 10 Jan 2016, at 17:15, F6CNI - Andy - JN19QB <f6cni@orange.fr>= ; wrote:
>
> Hi all.
>
> I agree 100% with RIK.
>
> Yes, and in France the EIRP limit is 1 Watt only, because the minimum = distance from the south coast in France to Algeria is below 800 km (621 km = exactly).
>
> This 1 Watt EIRP means about 0.6 Watt ERP (In France the ERP is call P= AR =93Puissance Apparente Rayonn=E9e=94), due to the 2.14 dB isotropic gain= of a monopole over a perfect ground. Even if the ground is not perfect (ou= tside of the main lobe formation, that is the begining of the Fraunhofer zone), a 2 db value is a reasonable choice.=
>
> If you have a very good antenna ( i.e. 30 meters vertical part, a larg= e top hat capacitance, and a good ground system, your antenna has around 10= % effeciency), you need only 6 Watts output TX to have 1 W EIRP. But using = a short vertical without top hat and not good ground (perhaps 0.1% efficiency) you need a 600 Watts TX to reach= the legal limit. HI !
>
> On the way : yes, on MF and LF bands it is a good choice to show your = EIRP power.
>
> 73 de Andy F6CNI.
>
>
> From: Rik Strobbe
> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 4:36 PM
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> Subject: RE: LF: RE: JT9 actvity...
>
> Hi Markus,
>
> not everywhere!
>
> The outcome of WRC-12 was:
> "The maximum equivalent isotropically radiated power (e.i.r.p.) o= f stations in the amateur service using frequencies in the band 472-479 kHz= shall not exceed 1 W. Administrations may increase this limit of e.i.r.p. = to 5 W in portions of their territory which are at a distance of over 800 km from the borders of Algeria, Saudi Arabia= , Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Belarus, China, Comoros, Djibouti, Egypt, United Ara= b Emirates, the Russian Federation, Iran (Islamic Republic of), Iraq, Jorda= n, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Oman, Uzbekistan, Qatar, Syrian Arab Republic,= Kyrgyzstan, Somalia, Sudan, Tunisia, Ukraine and Yemen. In this frequency = band, stations in the amateur service shall not cause harmful interference = to, or claim protection from, stations of the aeronautical radionavigation service."
>
> In Belgium the power limit is 5W EIRP (3 W ERP), I believe this is als= o the case in the Netherland, UK and Ireland.
>
> But you are right about the saturation. With the right antenna (height= ) it is easy to produce many 10's W ERP with a few 100W TX power.
>
> 73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T
>
> Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blackshee= p.org] namens Markus Vester [markusvester@aol.com]
> Verzonden: zondag 10 januari 2016 16:03
> Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> Onderwerp: Re: LF: RE: JT9 actvity...
>
>
> Note however that the power scale saturates at 1 W ERP, which is (by d= efinition) the largest power an amateur can possibly radiate on LF and MF ;= -)
>
> Best 73,
> Markus (DF6NM)
>
>
> -----Urspr=FCngliche Mitteilung-----
> Von: Rik Strobbe <rik.strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be>
> An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
> Verschickt: So, 10 Jan 2016 3:42 pm
> Betreff: LF: RE: JT9 actvity...
> Hello Szigy,
>
> regarding the declared power level in WSPR: Most stations declare thei= r ERP, not
>
> PA output.
>
>
>
>
>
> 73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
>
>
> Van:
> owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= ]
>
> namens Szigy [
> yo2is@wa7v.ampr.org]
>
> Verzonden: zaterdag 9 januari 2016 20:22
>
>
> Aan:
> rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
>
> Onderwerp: LF: JT9 actvity...
>
>
>
>
>
> From: YO2IS
>
>  Hello from KN05ps,
>
>
> was pleased to take part in the 8 ian JT9 activity.
>
>
>  Lot of signals received, propagation was similar to 2m Es !
>
>
> very short openings from unexpected QTF's.
>
>
>  Nice QSO with DG3LV in JO53, IZ7SLZ responded to my CQ he was >
>
> a solid -23 then nil. Received again OR7T -27, we had a nice
>
>
> QSO a day before, also wkd DC1RJJ who responded to my CQ !!.
>
>
>  CWNR, several times IW4DXW up to -24 and DF7FC -20 he often is >
>
> reporting my WSPR-2 nil in JT9...
>
>
>  My TVRT / IRF540 had only 20 W out into the 41m sloping wire. >
>
> it seems that the IC-7000 is not as bad for reception on LF / MF.
>
>
>  Surprised also by the  WSPR-2 results, litle confused with = the
>
>
> received signal levels versus de declared power dBm! are real ?...
>
>
>  Enjoy the good winter conditions.
>
>
>    73 & DX, Szigy.=FF=FE?=FF=FE?
>

john.rabson07@gmail.com

Researching history of RABSON, BLACKSHAW, GAUNTLETT, VERLANDER and ROBSONNE=

--_000_7E7DFBB4D102A04DB5ADC88D66628A4A444ADE01ICTSSMBX1lunaku_--