Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1290; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, FORGED_AOL_TAGS,HTML_MESSAGE,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id tAJM0SqU008266 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 23:00:28 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1ZzXCI-0006a8-Et for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 21:56:54 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1ZzXCI-0006Zz-1y for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 21:56:54 +0000 Received: from omr-a014e.mx.aol.com ([204.29.186.62]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1ZzXBF-0001Rf-Lk for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 21:56:52 +0000 Received: from mtaomg-aaj01.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-aaj01.mx.aol.com [172.27.3.207]) by omr-a014e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 177C03800047 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 16:55:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from core-afa04b.mail.aol.com (core-afa04.mail.aol.com [172.27.24.4]) by mtaomg-aaj01.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id D0C3938000084 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 16:55:32 -0500 (EST) References: <7E7DFBB4D102A04DB5ADC88D66628A4A4447680B@ICTS-S-MBX1.luna.kuleuven.be> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: <7E7DFBB4D102A04DB5ADC88D66628A4A4447680B@ICTS-S-MBX1.luna.kuleuven.be> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Markus Vester X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: AOL Webmail BASIC Received: from 188.192.95.60 by webmail-vd014.sysops.aol.com (205.188.194.40) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Thu, 19 Nov 2015 16:55:32 -0500 Message-Id: <8D2F12C25C90296-17B8-899AB@webmail-vd014.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [188.192.95.60] Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 16:55:32 -0500 x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20150623; t=1447970133; bh=VRxYxaMSFzgevqArtCd3lcRgh5iIRcVPoUs5qfBCkKA=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=I/SjY/HxXZbB4smN7+3ke+gyANov9yuaRb8snvztJZXYC8zDWcAOOd4RgN0WrQqbY 29SxScxlxqK6y0A3OAivcSuGFQhfFf2nmBHWYkhY+6NJ91XdytCHnPzX94tPHXXTX2 c1r6J1EgCA0Oc7Oav6nnjEv4d5jQGjMHSgY6Fz9E= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1b03cf564e45540533 X-Scan-Signature: 54c274b8b0f8da777e8f702c98fe24ad Subject: LF: Re: Antenna relays - multifilar Litz coil Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8D2F12C25D74ADC_17B8_14FA4B_webmail-vd014.sysops.aol.com" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5213 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8D2F12C25D74ADC_17B8_14FA4B_webmail-vd014.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >=C2=A0Marcus=20offered=20an=20interesting=20alternative,=20but=20the=20bifil= ar=20loading=20coil=20would=20need=20to=20have=20a=20low=20DC=20resistance=20(th= us=20heavy=20wire).=0D=0A=0D=0AMy=20former=20loading=20coil=20was=20made=C2=A0of= =20RF=20litzwire,=20243=20x=200.05=20mm=20strands.=20These=20strands=20are=20gro= uped=20in=203=20bundles,=20which=20can=C2=A0easily=20be=20separated=20and=20sold= ered=20individually.=C2=A0I=20haven't=20measured=C2=A0characteristic=20impedance= s=20of=20the=20resulting=20trifilar=20line,=20but=20I=20think=20it=20would=20be=20= useful=20for=20DC=20as=20well=20HF=20as=20long=20as=20the=20differential=20volta= ge=20is=20not=20too=20large.=0D=0A=0D=0A>=20I=20am=20not=20sure=20a=20(lossle= ss)=20capacitor=20in=20parallel=20with=20the=20coil=20will=20lower=20the=C2=A0=20= antenna=20efficiency.=20=0D=0A=0D=0AI=20think=20it=20would=C2=A0increase=20the=20= coil=20losses,=20compared=20to=20a=20higher=20inductance=20coil=20of=20same=20Q,= =20without=20the=20capacitor.=20=0D=0A=C2=A0Pcoil=20=3D=20I*U/Q=0D=0AAt=20same=20= radiated=20power,=20you'll=20have=20the=20same=20voltage=C2=A0but=20higher=20coi= l=20current=20due=20to=20the=20extra=20capacitor.=0D=0A=C2=A0=0D=0AAll=20the=20b= est,=0D=0AMarkus=20(DF6NM)=0D=0A=0D=0A-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche=20Mitteilung-----=20= =0D=0AVon:=20Rik=20Strobbe=20<rik.strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be>=0D=0AAn:=20rsgb= _lf_group=20<rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>=0D=0AVerschickt:=20Do,=2019=20N= ov=202015=209:27=20pm=0D=0ABetreff:=20RE:=20Re[2]:=20LF:=20Re:=20Antenna=20relay= s=0D=0A=0D=0AHi=20Chris,=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0Ayour=20question=20is=20not=20easy=20at= =20all,=20unless=20you=20want=20to=20spend=20=20a=20lot=20of=20money.=20=0D=0ATh= e=20easy=20(but=20expensive)=20solution=20would=20be=20to=20buy=20an=20appropiat= e=20vacuum=20relay.=20=20=0D=0AThese=20can=20handle=20several=2010kV=20and=20are= =20RF-proof.=20=0D=0AAs=20mentioned=20before=20for=20most=20other=20(and=20affor= dable)=20relays=20the=20contact=20voltages=20=20=0D=0Aare=20given=20for=20DC=20o= r=2050=20(60)=20Hz.=20RF=20behaviour=20(even=20as=20low=20as=20136kHz)=20will=20= be=20=20=0D=0Adifferent=20(worse).=20And=20RF=20voltages=20of=20several=20kV=20a= re=20very=20common=20on=20136kHz.=20=0D=0AOne=20option=20would=20be=20to=20put=20= a=20number=20of=20relays=20"in=20series",=20but=20there=20are=20some=20=20=0D=0A= pitfalls:=20=0D=0A-=20it=20will=20increase=20the=20(open)=20contact=20voltage,=20= but=20not=20the=20contact-to-coil=20=20=0D=0Avoltage=20(unless=20you=20will=20pr= ovide=20some=20kind=20of=20isolation=20in=20the=20relay=20driver)=20=0D=0A-=20yo= u=20have=20to=20ensure=20that=20the=20voltage=20is=20equally=20divided=20over=20= the=20relays:=20at=20=20=0D=0Aleast=20use=20identical=20relays,=20eventually=20e= qual=20(high=20voltage)=20resistors=20in=20=20=0D=0Aparallel=20with=20each=20con= tact.=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0AMarcus=20offered=20an=20interesting=20alternative,=20but=20= the=20bifilar=20loading=20coil=20would=20=20=0D=0Aneed=20to=20have=20a=20low=20D= C=20resistance=20(thus=20heavy=20wire).=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A73,=20Rik=20=20ON7YD=20= =0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A________________________________________=20=0D=0A= Van:=20owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20[owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]= =20=20=0D=0Anamens=20Chris=20Wilson=20[chris@chriswilson.tv]=20=0D=0AVerzonden:=20= donderdag=2019=20november=202015=2020:40=20=0D=0AAan:=20Rik=20Strobbe=20=0D=0AOn= derwerp:=20Re[2]:=20LF:=20Re:=20Antenna=20relays=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0AHello=20Rik,=20= =0D=0A=20=0D=0AThursday,=20November=2019,=202015=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0AWhils= t=20you=20experts=20argue=20the=20technical=20niceties=20of=20the=20challenge,=20= let=20=0D=0Ame=20ask=20what=20might=20be=20a=20simple=20question=20to=20you=20gu= ys.=20What=20is=20the=20=0D=0Aminimum=20number=20of=20two=20contact=20vac=20rela= ys=20I=20would=20need=20to=20go=20from=20=0D=0Astrapped=20ladder=20line=20to=20t= op=20of=20loading=20coil,=20to=20unstrapped=20ladder=20=0D=0Aline,=20disconnecte= d=20from=20the=20top=20of=20the=20coil,=20and=20now=20connected=20to=20my=20=0D=0A= coaxial=20feed=20line,=20presumably=20itself=20disconnected=20from=20ground=20an= d=20the=20=0D=0Abottom=20of=20the=20loading=20coil?=20It=20seems=20a=20lot=20wou= ld=20be=20needed=20to=20me....=20=0D=0A:(=20Thanks!=20I=20can=20see=20me=20leavi= ng=20wet=20weather=20gear=20by=20the=20front=20door=20and=20=0D=0Adoing=20this=20= manually!=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A>=20Hello=20Stefan,=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A>= =20I=20am=20not=20sure=20a=20(lossless)=20capacitor=20in=20parallel=20with=20the= =20coil=20will=20lower=20the=20=20=0D=0Aantenna=20efficiency.=20=0D=0A>=20I=20= would=20assume=20that=20it=20will=20affect=20the=20antenna=20impedance=20as=20se= en=20=0D=0A>=20from=20the=20TX,=20but=20will=20not=20change=20the=20ratio=20R= rad/Rloss=20(what=20=0D=0A>=20determines=20the=20antenna=20effeciency).=20=0D= =0A=20=0D=0A>=2073,=20Rik=20=20ON7YD=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20=0D= =0A=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A--=20=0D=0ABest=20regards,=20=0D=0A=20Chris=20=202E0ILY=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20mailto:c= hris@chriswilson.tv=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=0D=0A=20=20=0A=0A ----------MB_8D2F12C25D74ADC_17B8_14FA4B_webmail-vd014.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" =0D=0A> Marcus=20offered=20an=20interesting=20alternative,=20but=20the=20b= ifilar=20loading=20coil=20would=20need=20to=20have=20a=20low=20DC=20resistance=20= (thus=20heavy=20wire).=0D=0A=0D=0A

=0D=0AMy=20former=20loading=20c= oil=20was=20made of=20RF=20litzwire,=20243=20x=200.05=20mm=20strands.=20The= se=20strands=20are=20grouped=20in=203=20bundles,=20which=20can easily=20be=20= separated=20and=20soldered=20individually. I=20haven't=20measured char= acteristic=20impedances=20of=20the=20resulting=20trifilar=20line,=20but=20I=20th= ink=20it=20would=20be=20useful=20for=20DC=20as=20well=20HF=20as=20long=20as=20th= e=20differential=20voltage=20is=20not=20too=20large.
=0D=0A
=0D=0A>=20I= =20am=20not=20sure=20a=20(lossless)=20capacitor=20in=20parallel=20with=20the=20c= oil=20will=20lower=20the =20antenna=20efficiency.=20
=0D=0A
=0D=0A=0D= =0A
I=20think=20it=20would increase=20the=20coil=20losses,=20compared=20= to=20a=20higher=20inductance=20coil=20of=20same=20Q,=20without=20the=20capacitor= .=20
=0D=0A=0D=0A
 Pcoil=20=3D=20I*U/Q
=0D=0A=0D=0A
At=20= same=20radiated=20power,=20you'll=20have=20the=20same=20voltage but=20highe= r=20coil=20current=20due=20to=20the=20extra=20capacitor.
=0D=0A=0D=0A
&= nbsp;
=0D=0A=0D=0A
All=20the=20best,
=0D=0A=0D=0A
Markus=20(DF= 6NM)
=0D=0A
=0D=0A-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche=20Mitteilung-----=20
=0D=0A= Von:=20Rik=20Strobbe=20<rik.strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be>
=0D=0AAn:=20rsgb_l= f_group=20<rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
=0D=0AVerschickt:=20Do,=2019=20= Nov=202015=209:27=20pm
=0D=0ABetreff:=20RE:=20Re[2]:=20LF:=20Re:=20Antenna=20= relays
=0D=0A
=0D=0A=0D=0AHi=20= Chris,=20
=0D=0A=20
=0D=0Ayour=20question=20is=20not=20easy=20at=20all,=20= unless=20you=20want=20to=20spend=20=20a=20lot=20of=20money.=20
=0D=0AThe=20ea= sy=20(but=20expensive)=20solution=20would=20be=20to=20buy=20an=20appropiate=20va= cuum=20relay.=20=20
=0D=0AThese=20can=20handle=20several=2010kV=20and=20are=20= RF-proof.=20
=0D=0AAs=20mentioned=20before=20for=20most=20other=20(and=20affo= rdable)=20relays=20the=20contact=20voltages=20=20
=0D=0Aare=20given=20for=20D= C=20or=2050=20(60)=20Hz.=20RF=20behaviour=20(even=20as=20low=20as=20136kHz)=20wi= ll=20be=20=20
=0D=0Adifferent=20(worse).=20And=20RF=20voltages=20of=20several= =20kV=20are=20very=20common=20on=20136kHz.=20
=0D=0AOne=20option=20would=20be= =20to=20put=20a=20number=20of=20relays=20"in=20series",=20but=20there=20are=20so= me=20=20
=0D=0Apitfalls:=20
=0D=0A-=20it=20will=20increase=20the=20(open)=20= contact=20voltage,=20but=20not=20the=20contact-to-coil=20=20
=0D=0Avoltage=20= (unless=20you=20will=20provide=20some=20kind=20of=20isolation=20in=20the=20relay= =20driver)=20
=0D=0A-=20you=20have=20to=20ensure=20that=20the=20voltage=20is=20= equally=20divided=20over=20the=20relays:=20at=20=20
=0D=0Aleast=20use=20ident= ical=20relays,=20eventually=20equal=20(high=20voltage)=20resistors=20in=20=20=0D=0Aparallel=20with=20each=20contact.=20
=0D=0A=20
=0D=0AMarcus=20offer= ed=20an=20interesting=20alternative,=20but=20the=20bifilar=20loading=20coil=20wo= uld=20=20
=0D=0Aneed=20to=20have=20a=20low=20DC=20resistance=20(thus=20heavy=20= wire).=20
=0D=0A=20
=0D=0A73,=20Rik=20=20ON7YD=20
=0D=0A=20
=0D=0A=20=
=0D=0A=20
=0D=0A________________________________________=20
=0D=0AVan:= =20owner-rsgb_lf_group@b= lacksheep.org=20[own= er-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]=20=20
=0D=0Anamens=20Chris=20Wilson=20[<= a=20href=3D"mailto:chris@chriswilson.tv">chris@chriswilson.tv]=20
=0D=0AV= erzonden:=20donderdag=2019=20november=202015=2020:40=20
=0D=0AAan:=20Rik=20St= robbe=20
=0D=0AOnderwerp:=20Re[2]:=20LF:=20Re:=20Antenna=20relays=20
=0D=0A= =20
=0D=0AHello=20Rik,=20
=0D=0A=20
=0D=0AThursday,=20November=2019,=20= 2015=20
=0D=0A=20
=0D=0A=20
=0D=0AWhilst=20you=20experts=20argue=20the=20= technical=20niceties=20of=20the=20challenge,=20let=20
=0D=0Ame=20ask=20what=20= might=20be=20a=20simple=20question=20to=20you=20guys.=20What=20is=20the=20
=0D= =0Aminimum=20number=20of=20two=20contact=20vac=20relays=20I=20would=20need=20to=20= go=20from=20
=0D=0Astrapped=20ladder=20line=20to=20top=20of=20loading=20coil,= =20to=20unstrapped=20ladder=20
=0D=0Aline,=20disconnected=20from=20the=20top=20= of=20the=20coil,=20and=20now=20connected=20to=20my=20
=0D=0Acoaxial=20feed=20= line,=20presumably=20itself=20disconnected=20from=20ground=20and=20the=20
=0D= =0Abottom=20of=20the=20loading=20coil?=20It=20seems=20a=20lot=20would=20be=20nee= ded=20to=20me....=20
=0D=0A:(=20Thanks!=20I=20can=20see=20me=20leaving=20wet=20= weather=20gear=20by=20the=20front=20door=20and=20
=0D=0Adoing=20this=20manual= ly!=20
=0D=0A=20
=0D=0A=20
=0D=0A>=20Hello=20Stefan,=20
=0D=0A=20=
=0D=0A>=20I=20am=20not=20sure=20a=20(lossless)=20capacitor=20in=20paralle= l=20with=20the=20coil=20will=20lower=20the=20=20
=0D=0Aantenna=20efficiency.=20=
=0D=0A>=20I=20would=20assume=20that=20it=20will=20affect=20the=20antenna=20= impedance=20as=20seen=20
=0D=0A>=20from=20the=20TX,=20but=20will=20not=20c= hange=20the=20ratio=20Rrad/Rloss=20(what=20
=0D=0A>=20determines=20the=20a= ntenna=20effeciency).=20
=0D=0A=20
=0D=0A>=2073,=20Rik=20=20ON7YD=20=0D=0A=20
=0D=0A=20
=0D=0A=20
=0D=0A=20
=0D=0A=20
=0D=0A=20
=0D= =0A--=20
=0D=0ABest=20regards,=20
=0D=0A=20Chris=20=202E0ILY=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20mailto:chris@chriswilson.tv=20
=0D=0A=20
=0D=0A=0D=0A=20=20
=0D=0A ----------MB_8D2F12C25D74ADC_17B8_14FA4B_webmail-vd014.sysops.aol.com--