Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1117; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, FORGED_RCVD_HELO,HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id tACFAEAL023380 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:10:14 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1ZwtQr-00030c-2L for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:05:01 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1ZwtQq-00030R-IY for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:05:00 +0000 Received: from s16315160.onlinehome-server.info ([87.106.80.234] helo=mail.vigilant.es) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1ZwtPz-0005LI-MY for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:04:59 +0000 Received: from servigilant.vigilant.local ([87.216.178.132]) by vigilant.es with MailEnable ESMTP; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:03:17 +0100 Received: from servigilant.vigilant.local ([fe80::3cdf:95f8:c1c9:3931]) by servigilant.vigilant.local ([fe80::3cdf:95f8:c1c9:3931%13]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:03:37 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?VIGILANT_Luis_Fern=E1ndez?= To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Thread-Topic: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR Thread-Index: AdEa/3HdJDECZq8ZHEGcgKPmFkTSWgBZUuAwAA9bOoAAH3j9KwAENzaAAApPMfo= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:03:37 +0000 Message-ID: <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B285B63@servigilant.vigilant.local> References: <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B282100@servigilant.vigilant.local>,<579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B283765@servigilant.vigilant.local>,<7E7DFBB4D102A04DB5ADC88D66628A4A44467919@ICTS-S-MBX1.luna.kuleuven.be>,<579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B28544C@servigilant.vigilant.local>,<7E7DFBB4D102A04DB5ADC88D66628A4A44469BDC@ICTS-S-MBX1.luna.kuleuven.be> In-Reply-To: <7E7DFBB4D102A04DB5ADC88D66628A4A44469BDC@ICTS-S-MBX1.luna.kuleuven.be> Accept-Language: es-ES, en-US Content-Language: es-ES X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [95.17.144.97] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scan-Signature: 65732ee2b04a3a28b75f674e88814739 Subject: Re: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B285B63servigilantvigi_" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4996 --_000_579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B285B63servigilantvigi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rik Noted. Thank you ! Instead of making a regenerative Rx I can use the good "old" Perseus as it = can be configured for dB/uV measurements. And then use a magnetic antenna like as Dick descri= bed in his document So this can be used at MF and LF, VLF .... next on the list ;-) For calibration will make a pair of Helmholtz coils and then the SHAR110 as= generator can be of use to drive the coils with a known level and then calibrate the measures Will keep you all updated 73 de Luis EA5DOM ________________________________ De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]= en nombre de Rik Strobbe [rik.strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be] Enviado: jueves, 12 de noviembre de 2015 12:00 Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Asunto: RE: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR Hello Luis, the critical point in measuring ERP is the calibration of the measuring dev= ice. Dick, PA0SE published a nice field strength meter for 136kHz and included a= calibration method using a pair of Helmholtz coils. See http://www.wireles= s.org.uk/pa0se.htm. Using the antenna analyser won't be of much help, as the unknown factor for= determining the ERP is not the TX output power but the efficiency and 'gai= n' of the antenna. 73, Rik ON7YD ________________________________ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= ] namens VIGILANT Luis Fern=E1ndez [luis@vigilant.es] Verzonden: donderdag 12 november 2015 9:18 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: Re: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR Thank you for your comments Rik. Much apreciated Last night the only station with two spots into Reunion was IW4DWX. Congrat= ulations Riccardo ! :-) I'm running about a 1A RF current. So the real "incognita" is the radiation= resistance Will try to make some ERP field measurements. Having my monitor at 7Km will= be easy to make it permanent and to get a real idea of how the antenna is performing. There is= still some experiments to try and would be interesting to get a way to accurately measure the resu= lts Using SHARK110 antenna analyzer as signal generator I tested injecting -33d= Bm to the antenna and could see the trace in my monitor at 7Km. I wonder if measuring the signal = difference in dB at the Rx with two different Tx levels Would it be possible to calculate ERP and so Ra this way ?? 73 de Luis EA5DOM ________________________________ De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]= en nombre de Rik Strobbe [rik.strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be] Enviado: mi=E9rcoles, 11 de noviembre de 2015 18:58 Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Asunto: RE: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR Hello Luis, the radiation resistance of your antenne is probably not the calculated 8 O= hm, due to the fact that the 80m "tower" is not perfect and will introduce = some loss. Or another way to look at it is that the building will rise the virtual gro= und level, so your antenna is not really 80m above "HF ground". But without doubt it will be some Ohm and it will be peanuts for you to rad= iate several Watts ERP. Eg: Assuming the true radiation resistance is half of the calculated value = (4 Ohm) you will need only 370mA antennacurrent for 1W ERP (keep in mind th= at a vertical monopole has a gain of 2.6dBd). 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T ________________________________ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= ] namens VIGILANT Luis Fern=E1ndez [luis@vigilant.es] Verzonden: woensdag 11 november 2015 11:11 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: RE: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR Hi MF Interesting conditions to Reunion last night A total of 23 spots from FR5ZX. Only four stations reported 1 from G8HUH at -30 3 from SV8CS best -24 6 from DK7FC best -24 13 from EA5DOM best -19 >From Rick Strobbe ON7YD reference site for LF antennas I have seen his calc= ulations for a vertical antenna with inductive topload. May be is the closer configuration to what = I have managed to get here http://www.strobbe.eu/on7yd/136ant/#IndTop There is no mention to the feeding point for such antenna. In my setup H(L)= is 80m and I'm feeding at the coil base. Total H is 80+11=3D 91m The Ra calculated from Rick formulas is over 8 Ohm (not mOhm) This radiation resistance seems too much to be true. But results are provin= g really outstanding I'm just feeding the antenna with 70W, believe it or not and it is not real= ly resonanting on WPSR frequency but on 488KHz as I adjust the variometer up at the antenna and then run a coax line to sh= ack which changes it all The 80m pipe which forms the H(L) is really more complex in practice. It go= es down to building basement and there splits into different pipes. One connects to presure compressor a= nd water tank. The other runs underground 40m to the twin tower and then runs up again another 80m into t= he twin (parallel) tower The pipe section running underground is not metal, but plastic. The iner wa= ter column should work as current conductor. That water is confined in the pipes and presurized. Shou= ld be saturated with metal oxide similar to a heating circuit, so probably the plastic pipe got metal deposi= ts inside which make it even better conductor than the water colum itself Any thoughts ?? Am I getting >10% efficiency ?? 73 de Luis EA5DOM ________________________________ De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blackshe= ep.org] En nombre de VIGILANT Luis Fern=E1ndez Enviado el: lunes, 09 de noviembre de 2015 16:01 Para: DK7FC; rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Asunto: Re: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR >From WSPR database, FR5ZX transmitted in 503KHz. Is 630m band not allowed i= n Reuni=F3n? 73 de Luis EA5DOM Enviado en portable ------ Mensaje original ------ Desde: DK7FC Fecha: 09/11/2015 14:48 Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Asunto:Re: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR Hi Genosse Roman, FR5ZX is using a resonated vertical antenna with capacitive top load near h= is house. He also transmits with this antenna. 73, Stefan Am 09.11.2015 01:35, schrieb Roman RW3ADB: Parteigenosse Stefan! Any news about FR5ZX RX-setup? ) 73! Roman --_000_579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B285B63servigilantvigi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Rik

Noted. Thank you !

Instead of making a regenerative Rx I can use the good "old"= Perseus as it can be configured
for dB/uV measurements. And then use a magnetic antenna like as Dick d= escribed in his document
So this can be used at MF and LF, VLF .... next on the list ;-) <= /div>

For calibration will make a pair of Helmholtz coils and then the SHAR1= 10 as generator can be of use
to drive the coils with a known level and then calibrate the measures<= /div>

Will keep you all updated

73 de Luis
EA5DOM
De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [o= wner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] en nombre de Rik Strobbe [rik.strobbe@fy= s.kuleuven.be]
Enviado: jueves, 12 de noviembre de 2015 12:00
Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Asunto: RE: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR

Hello Luis,

 

the critical point in measuring ERP is the calibratio= n of the measuring device.

Dick, PA0SE published a nice field strength meter for=  136kHz and included a calibration method us= ing a pair of Helmholtz coils. See http://= www.wireless.org.uk/pa0se.htm.

 

Using the antenna analyser won't be of much help, as the unknown= factor for determining the ERP is not the TX output= power but the efficiency and 'gain' of the antenna.

 

73, Rik  ON7YD

 

Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [ow= ner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens VIGILANT Luis Fern=E1ndez [luis@vi= gilant.es]
Verzonden: donderdag 12 november 2015 9:18
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp: Re: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR

Thank you for your comments Rik. Much a= preciated

Last night the only station with two spots into Reunion was IW4DWX. Congrat= ulations Riccardo ! :-)

I'm running about a 1A RF current. So t= he real "incognita" is the radiation resistance
Will try to make some ERP field measure= ments. Having my monitor at 7Km will be easy to make it
permanent and to get a real idea of how the antenna is performing. The= re is still some experiments
to try and would be interesting to get a way to accurately measure the= results

Using SHARK110 antenna analyzer as signal generator I tested injecting= -33dBm to the antenna and
could see the trace in my monitor at 7Km. I wonder if measuring the si= gnal difference in dB at the Rx with two
different Tx levels

Would it be possible to calculate ERP and so Ra this way  ??

73 de Luis
EA5DOM
De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [own= er-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] en nombre de Rik Strobbe [rik.strobbe@fys.= kuleuven.be]
Enviado: mi=E9rcoles, 11 de noviembre de 2015 18:58
Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Asunto: RE: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR

Hello Luis,

 

the radiation resistance of your antenne is probably not the calculated = 8 Ohm, due to the fact that the 80m "tower" is not perfect and wi= ll introduce some loss.

Or another way to look at it is that the building will rise the virtual = ground level, so your antenna is not really 80m above "HF ground"= .

But without doubt it will be some Ohm and it will be peanuts for you to = radiate several Watts ERP.

Eg: Assuming the true radiation resistance is half of the calculated val= ue (4 Ohm) you will need only 370mA antennacurrent for 1W ERP (keep in= mind that a vertical monopole has a gain of 2.6dBd).

 

73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T

 

Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owne= r-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens VIGILANT Luis Fern=E1ndez [luis@vigi= lant.es]
Verzonden: woensdag 11 november 2015 11:11
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp: RE: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR

Hi MF
 
Interesting conditions to Reunion= last night
 
A total of 23 spots from FR5ZX. O= nly four stations reported
 
1 from G8HUH at -30=
3 from SV8CS best -24
6 from DK7FC best -24
13 from EA5DOM best -19
 
From Rick Strobbe ON7YD reference= site for LF antennas I have seen his calculations for a vertical
antenna with inductive topload. M= ay be is the closer configuration to what I have managed to get here=
 
 
There is no mention to the feedin= g point for such antenna. In my setup H(L) is 80m and I'm feeding
at the coil base. Total H is 80&#= 43;11=3D 91m
 
The Ra calculated from Rick formu= las is over 8 Ohm (not mOhm)
This radiation resistance seems t= oo much to be true. But results are proving really outstanding
 
I'm just feeding the antenna with= 70W, believe it or not and it is not really resonanting on WPSR = frequency but on 488KHz
as I adjust the variometer u= p at the antenna and then run a coax line to shack which changes it al= l
 
The 80m pipe which forms the H(L)= is really more complex in practice. It goes down to building basement
and there splits into different p= ipes. One connects to presure compressor and water tank. The other runs
underground 40m to the twin = tower and then runs up again another 80m into the twin (parallel) tower
The pipe section running und= erground is not metal, but plastic. The iner water column should work = as
current conductor. That water is = confined in the pipes and presurized. Should be saturated with metal o= xide
similar to a heating circuit, so = probably the plastic pipe got metal deposits inside which make it even bett= er
conductor than the water colum it= self
 
Any thoughts ?? Am I getting >= 10% efficiency ??
 
73 de Luis
EA5DOM 

De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.= org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] En nombre de VIGILANT Luis Fern=E1ndez
Enviado el: lunes, 09 de noviembre de 2015 16:01
Para: DK7FC; rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Asunto: Re: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR

From WSPR database, FR5ZX tr= ansmitted in 503KHz. Is 630m band not allowed in Reuni=F3n? 

 

73 de Luis

EA5DOM

 

Enviado en portable

------ Mensaje original ------
Desde: DK7FC
Fecha: 09/11/2015 14:48
Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org;
Asunto:Re: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR

Hi Genosse Roman,

FR5ZX is using a resonated vertical antenna with capacitive top load near h= is house. He also transmits with this antenna.

73, Stefan

Am 09.11.2015 01:35, schrieb Roman RW3ADB:
Part= eigenosse Stefan!

Any news about F= R5ZX RX-setup? )



73!
Roman

--_000_579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B285B63servigilantvigi_--