Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1233; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, FORGED_AOL_TAGS,HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id t91LZnj3029146 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2015 23:35:49 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1ZhlSi-0006aX-Rt for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Oct 2015 22:32:24 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1ZhlSi-0006aO-3h for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Oct 2015 22:32:24 +0100 Received: from omr-a009e.mx.aol.com ([204.29.186.49]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhlRe-0004Vg-DS for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 01 Oct 2015 22:32:23 +0100 Received: from mtaomg-aan01.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-aan01.mx.aol.com [172.27.19.79]) by omr-a009e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id AEDA138000FA for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2015 17:31:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-afa03e.mail.aol.com (core-afa03.mail.aol.com [172.27.24.3]) by mtaomg-aan01.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 506CF38000081 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2015 17:31:03 -0400 (EDT) References: <560D660F.2070405@gmail.com> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: <560D660F.2070405@gmail.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Markus Vester X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: AOL Webmail BASIC Received: from 188.192.95.60 by webmail-vm004.sysops.aol.com (149.174.183.33) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Thu, 01 Oct 2015 17:31:02 -0400 Message-Id: <8D2CAA79AE1077F-C0EC-1534D6@webmail-vm004.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [188.192.95.60] Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 17:31:02 -0400 x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-VSS-INFO: 5700.7163/106206 X-AOL-VSS-CODE: clean DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20150623; t=1443735063; bh=XubEvbywQ0kjK6118TylD4ep4p33aZflWl5IQrWDr4E=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=oUopysAqRNPRZ0cW0yyUcjescd+3wddcEqL+++CWaRV6IWDZWUO4x47EwTm6F+XLn xslFPc64n7lXIjPslf2bmLOd7AVfPdTYDuEIOizUZ9IoHfcGJBG+KjOVKaKDwPmgez S3Kd3udfidUH+MjspxWUsIkrU83sYgaRHdX5bhnY= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1b134f560da6177074 X-Scan-Signature: b3ea873d96001e1e8f746c5acd9b86da Subject: Re: LF: Coherent BPSK on LF using EbNaut Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--------MB_8D2CAA79AF8D517_C0EC_2918DA_webmail-vm004.sysops.aol.com" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4233 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8D2CAA79AF8D517_C0EC_2918DA_webmail-vm004.sysops.aol.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8D2CAA79AF8D517_C0EC_2918DB_webmail-vm004.sysops.aol.com" ----------MB_8D2CAA79AF8D517_C0EC_2918DB_webmail-vm004.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi=20Stefan,=20Domenico,=0D=0A=C2=A0=0D=0A=0D=0Ato=20get=20an=20idea=20of=20the=20= tolerances,=20you=20can=20convert=C2=A0the=20spectrum=20from=0D=0Ahttp://df6nm.b= placed.net/VLF/fec_tests/ebnaut_data_09200300.zip=0D=0Ainto=20a=20wav=20and=20pl= ay=20around=20with=20the=20time=20offset=20and=20frequency=20offsets=20for=20the= =20EbNaut=20decoder.=C2=A0The=20apparently=20best=20decode=20of=20this=20file=C2= =A0is=20shown=20in=C2=A0the=20screenshot,=20using=C2=A01114.49=20s=20and=C2=A02.= 1382=20Hz.=C2=A0=0D=0A=C2=A0=0D=0AChanging=20the=20frequency=20by=C2=A00.25=20mH= z=C2=A0up=20or=20down=C2=A0introduces=20a=20phase=20slope=20of=C2=A0~=2090=C2=B0= =20along=20the=201040=20s=20sequence=20(end=20to=20end,=20i.e.=20+-45=C2=B0=20de= viation),=20which=20produced=C2=A0only=20negligible=20degradation=20(about=200.5= =20dB=20or=20a=20couple=20of=20extra=20symbol=20errors).=20Doubling=20the=20freq= uency=20offset=20to=200.5=20mHz=20already=20affects=20the=20decode=20significant= ly,=20with=20about=203=C2=A0to=205=20dB=20degradation.=20This=20is=20also=C2=A0o= bvious=20in=20the=20constellation=20diagram=20(top=20right=20in=20show_rawsyms3a= ),=20where=20the=20two=20separate=20blobs=20are=20being=20smeared=20around=20and= =20can=20no=20longer=20be=20distinguished=20visually.=0D=0A=C2=A0=0D=0AA=20linea= r=20frequency=20drift=20results=20in=20a=20quadratic=20phase,=20and=20a=20drift=20= rate=20up=20to=20about=201=20mHz=20in=201000=20s=20seems=C2=A0ok.=20This=C2=A0is= =20within=20easy=20reach=20of=20a=20good=20OCXO.=20But=20the=20difficulty=20with= =20that=20approach=20is=20that=20the=20receiver=20will=20have=20to=20re-determin= e=C2=A0the=20correct=20frequency=C2=A0for=C2=A0each=20subsequent=20transmission.= =C2=A0=0D=0A=C2=A0=0D=0AEbNaut-RX=20can=20actually=20cope=20with=20some=20degree= =20of=C2=A0(propagational)=20phase=20variation=C2=A0by=C2=A0repeating=20the=20de= code=C2=A0attempt=20using=20different=20phase=20permutations=20between=20quarter= s.=C2=A0Having=20the=20frequency=20right=20will=C2=A0give=C2=A0constant=20phase,= =20and=C2=A0be=20likely=20to=20decode=20soon=20during=20one=20of=20the=20first=20= attempts.=0D=0A=C2=A0=0D=0ARegarding=20the=20timing,=20+-=200.1=20symbol=20durat= ions=C2=A0seems=20to=20be=20ok,=20but=200.2=20s=20already=20introduced=20a=20sig= nificant=C2=A0SNR=20penalty.=0D=0A=C2=A0=0D=0ABest=2073,=0D=0AMarkus=20(DF6NM)=0D= =0A=0D=0A=C2=A0=0D=0A-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche=20Mitteilung-----=20=0D=0AVon:=20IZ= 7SLZ=20<iz7slz.domenico@gmail.com>=0D=0AAn:=20rsgb_lf_group=20<rsgb_lf_= group@blacksheep.org>=0D=0AVerschickt:=20Do,=201=20Okt=202015=207:01=20pm=0D=0A= Betreff:=20Re:=20LF:=20Coherent=20BPSK=20on=20LF=20using=20EbNaut=0D=0A=0D=0A=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20Hallo=20Stefan,=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20thank=20you=20very=20much=20for=20your=20message.=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20On=2010/1/2015=204:29=20PM,=20DK7FC=20wrote:=0D= =0A=20=20=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20Hi=20=20=20=20=20=20=20Domenico,=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20Thanks=20for=20= your=20report.=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20I=20see=20you=20on= =20my=20OPDS32=20grabber,=20as=20you=20say.=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=202015-09-28=2021:00:47=20IZ7SLZ=C2=A0=201159k= m=20137502.120Hz=C2=A0=C2=A0=201mHz=20-46.7dBOp=C2=A0=20=20=20=20=20=20=2093%=20= 17.9dB=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=202015-09-28=2020:00:47=20IZ= 7SLZ=C2=A0=201159km=20137502.120Hz=C2=A0=C2=A0=202mHz=20-41.1dBOp=C2=A0=20=20=20= =20=20=20=2090%=2020.4dB=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=202015-09-= 28=2019:00:45=20IZ7SLZ=C2=A0=201159km=20137502.120Hz=C2=A0=C2=A0=205mHz=20-44.1d= BOp=C2=A0=20=20=20=20=20=20=2093%=2018.8dB=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20= =20=20=202015-09-28=2018:24:51=20IZ7SLZ=C2=A0=201159km=20137502.121Hz=C2=A0=C2=A0= =202mHz=20-45.0dBOp=C2=A0=20=20=20=20=20=20=2075%=2015.2dB=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=0D= =0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20Is=20137502.120=20Hz=20the=20= frequency=20of=20your=20choice?=20=C2=A0=20=20=20=20=20=20YES.=20CONFIRM.=20=20=20= =20=20=20If=20=20=20=20=20=20=20your=20TX=20and=20my=20RX=20is=20GPS=20locked=20= (or=20tracked)=20then=20where=20does=20the=201=20=20=20=20=20=20=20mHz=20offset=20= come=20from?=20=20=20=20=20=20No.=20My=20Tx=20is=20not=20yet=20fully=20GPS-Locke= d=20but=20it=20is=20steered=20by=20an=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20OCXO.=20That's=20= why=20i=20need=20to=20check=20the=20frequency=20and=20make=20a=20small=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20correction=20as=20done=20in=20the=20above=20OP32=20sequence=20.=20= After=20correction=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20QRG=20remains=20quite=20steady=20fo= r=20some=20hours.=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20Maybe=20a=20phase=20variation=20due=20to=20changing=20propagation?=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20The=20tests=20carried=20out=20so= =20far=20show=20that=20the=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20phase=20stability=20of=20th= e=20LF=20path=20is=20sufficient=20for=C2=A0=20transmissions=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20of=20at=20least=2020-30=20mins.=20Of=20course,=20it=20is=C2=A0=20necessary= =20to=20do=20many=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20other=20tests=20with=20differents=20= conditions=20(message=20and=20symbol=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20lengh= t,=20QRB,=20hours,=20seasons,...)=C2=A0=20in=20order=20to=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20better=20understand=20the=20channel=20capability.=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20There=20is=20an=20interesting=20result=20achieved=20on=20Sept=2014,=202015=20= with=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20some=20my=20transmission=20of=2043=20characters=20= at=200.2=20s=20(duration=20=3D=207=20min=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=2047=20s)=C2=A0= =20succesfully=20received=20by=20DF6NM.=20See:=0D=0A=20https://www.dropbox.com/s= /kimklrv25sbmwiu/ebnaut_150914_results.zip?dl=3D0=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20Which=20=20=20=20=20=20=20offset=20is=20= acceptable=20to=20avoid=20SNR=20losses=20in=20EbNaut=20(at=20a=20symbol=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20rate=20that=20allows=20a=20QSO=20(in=20one=20evening!=20;-)=20))=20?= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20Here=20i=20quote=20a=20= Markus'=20observation=20regarding=20this=20question:=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=0D= =0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20On=20LF,=20the=20frequency=20stability=20of=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20the=20TX=20and=20RX=20local=20oscillators=C2=A0comes=20in=20as= =20an=20additional=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20variable.=20It=20is=20very=20= important=20that=20these=20are=20known=20and=20stable=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20to=20better=20than=C2=A01/message_duration=20(about=20a=20mHz=20for=20a=20= 20=20minute=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20sequence),=20which=20requires=20eith= er=20GPS=20locked=20oscillators,=C2=A0or=20a=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20ver= y=20good=20OCXO=20or=20Rubidium.=20To=20circumvent=20possible=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20soundcard=C2=A0glitches=20on=20TX,=20it=20may=20actually=20be=20bett= er=20to=20use=20a=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20hardware=20oscillator=20(eg.=20= a=20DDS=20on=20the=20final=20RF=20frequency).=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=2073,=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= Stefan=C2=A0=C2=A0=20=20=20=20=20=20=20PS:=20Unfortunately=20not=20QRV=20on=20LF= =20at=20the=20moment.=20I=20need=20to=20find=20a=20=20=20=20=20=20=20new=20loadi= ng=20coil=20body=20because=20my=20glass=20coil=20fully=20broke=20during=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20maintenance=20attempts.=20Now=20i=20need=20something=20to=20come=20o= ut=20with=20a=20=20=20=20=20=20=20stronger=20signal=20because=20each=20modificat= ion=20on=20the=20system=20has=20to=20be=20=20=20=20=20=20=20an=20improvement,=20= by=20definition.=20So=20maybe=20i=20can=20come=20closer=20to=201W=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20ERP=20then...=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=0D=0A= =20=20=20=20=20OK.=20We=20wait=20the=20restoration=20of=20your=20coil=20hoping=20= that=20you=20want=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20to=20try=20coherent=20bpsk.=20Your=20= signal=20will=20be=20very=20useful=20for=20TA=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20EbNaut=20= test.=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20All=20the=20best=0D=0A=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20Domenico=20/=20iz7slz=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=0D= =0A=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=0A=0A ----------MB_8D2CAA79AF8D517_C0EC_2918DB_webmail-vm004.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" =0D=0AHi=20Stefan,=20Domenico,=0D=0A=0D=0A =0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A
to=20get=20an=20idea=20of= =20the=20tolerances,=20you=20can=20convert the=20spectrum=20from
=0D=0A<= a=20href=3D"http://df6nm.bplaced.net/VLF/fec_tests/ebnaut_data_09200300.zip">htt= p://df6nm.bplaced.net/VLF/fec_tests/ebnaut_data_09200300.zip
=0D=0A=0D=0A=
into=20a=20wav=20and=20play=20around=20with=20the=20time=20offset=20and=20f= requency=20offsets=20for=20the=20EbNaut=20decoder. The=20apparently=20best=20= decode=20of=20this=20file is=20shown=20in the=20screenshot,=20using&nb= sp;1114.49=20s=20and 2.1382=20Hz. 
=0D=0A=0D=0A
 
=0D= =0A=0D=0A
Changing=20the=20frequency=20by 0.25=20mHz up=20or=20dow= n introduces=20a=20phase=20slope=20of ~=2090=C2=B0=20along=20the=20104= 0=20s=20sequence=20(end=20to=20end,=20i.e.=20+-45=C2=B0=20deviation),=20which=20= produced only=20negligible=20degradation=20(about=200.5=20dB=20or=20a=20cou= ple=20of=20extra=20symbol=20errors).=20Doubling=20the=20frequency=20offset=20to=20= 0.5=20mHz=20already=20affects=20the=20decode=20significantly,=20with=20about=203=  to=205=20dB=20degradation.=20This=20is=20also obvious=20in=20the=20co= nstellation=20diagram=20(top=20right=20in=20show_rawsyms3a),=20where=20the=20two= =20separate=20blobs=20are=20being=20smeared=20around=20and=20can=20no=20longer=20= be=20distinguished=20visually.
=0D=0A=0D=0A
 
=0D=0A=0D=0AA=20linear=20frequency=20drift=20results=20in=20a=20quadratic=20phase,=20and=20= a=20drift=20rate=20up=20to=20about=201=20mHz=20in=201000=20s=20seems ok.=20= This is=20within=20easy=20reach=20of=20a=20good=20OCXO.=20But=20the=20diffi= culty=20with=20that=20approach=20is=20that=20the=20receiver=20will=20have=20to=20= re-determine the=20correct=20frequency for each=20subsequent=20tr= ansmission. =0D=0A=0D=0A
 
=0D=0A=0D=0A
EbNaut-RX=20= can=20actually=20cope=20with=20some=20degree=20of (propagational)=20phase=20= variation by repeating=20the=20decode attempt=20using=20different= =20phase=20permutations=20between=20quarters. Having=20the=20frequency=20ri= ght=20will give constant=20phase,=20and be=20likely=20to=20decode= =20soon=20during=20one=20of=20the=20first=20attempts.
=0D=0A=0D=0A
&nbs= p;
=0D=0A=0D=0A
Regarding=20the=20timing,=20+-=200.1=20symbol=20duratio= ns seems=20to=20be=20ok,=20but=200.2=20s=20already=20introduced=20a=20signi= ficant SNR=20penalty.
=0D=0A=0D=0A
 
=0D=0A=0D=0A
Be= st=2073,
=0D=0A=0D=0A
Markus=20(DF6NM)
=0D=0A=0D=0A

=0D=0A=  
=0D=0A-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche=20Mitteilung-----=20
=0D=0AVon:=20I= Z7SLZ=20<iz7slz.domenico@gmail.com>
=0D=0AAn:=20rsgb_lf_group=20<rsg= b_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
=0D=0AVerschickt:=20Do,=201=20Okt=202015=207:01= =20pm
=0D=0ABetreff:=20Re:=20LF:=20Coherent=20BPSK=20on=20LF=20using=20EbNaut=
=0D=0A
=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=0D=0A<= div=20class=3D"aolmail_moz-cite-prefix">
=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20Hal= lo=20Stefan,
=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20thank=20you=20very=20much=20for=20= your=20message.
=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20

=0D= =0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20On=2010/1/2015=204:29=20PM,=20DK7FC=20wrote:
=0D=0A=20= =20=20=20=20=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20Hi=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20Domenico,=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
=0D=0A= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20Thanks=20for=20your=20report.=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
=0D=0A= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20I=20see=20you=20on=20my=20OPDS32=20grabber,=20as=20you=20sa= y.=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20= =202015-09-28=2021:00:47=20IZ7SLZ =201159km=20137502.120Hz  =201m= Hz=20-46.7dBOp =20=20=20=20=20=20=2093%=2017.9dB=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
=0D= =0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=202015-09-28=2020:00:47=20IZ7SLZ =201159km=20137502.1= 20Hz  =202mHz=20-41.1dBOp =20=20=20=20=20=20=2090%=2020.4dB=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20
=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=202015-09-28=2019:00:45=20IZ7SLZ&nbs= p;=201159km=20137502.120Hz  =205mHz=20-44.1dBOp =20=20=20=20=20=20= =2093%=2018.8dB=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=202015-09-28=20= 18:24:51=20IZ7SLZ =201159km=20137502.121Hz  =202mHz=20-45.0dBOp&n= bsp;=20=20=20=20=20=20=2075%=2015.2dB=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
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=0D=0A=20https://www.dropb= ox.com/s/kimklrv25sbmwiu/ebnaut_150914_results.zip?dl=3D0
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=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20
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