Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1233; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, FORGED_AOL_TAGS,HTML_MESSAGE,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id t4NMX7Dt008193 for ; Sun, 24 May 2015 00:33:07 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1YwHvx-00034n-Vi for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 23 May 2015 23:30:21 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1YwHvx-00034Y-HQ for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 23 May 2015 23:30:21 +0100 Received: from omr-m01.mx.aol.com ([64.12.143.75]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1YwHvs-0000Lj-AI for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 23 May 2015 23:30:20 +0100 Received: from mtaomg-mac01.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mac01.mx.aol.com [172.26.222.207]) by omr-m01.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id AB8E570000096 for ; Sat, 23 May 2015 18:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-afa02f.mail.aol.com (core-afa02.mail.aol.com [172.27.24.2]) by mtaomg-mac01.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 6F49638000083 for ; Sat, 23 May 2015 18:30:13 -0400 (EDT) References: <8D2639CB5174D36-131C-D898@webmail-vm180.sysops.aol.com> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: <8D2639CB5174D36-131C-D898@webmail-vm180.sysops.aol.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Markus Vester X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: AOL Webmail BASIC Received: from 178.27.238.74 by webmail-va074.sysops.aol.com (149.174.109.117) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sat, 23 May 2015 18:30:13 -0400 Message-Id: <8D263BF2B778D58-1DD8-E29D@webmail-va074.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [178.27.238.74] Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 18:30:13 -0400 x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20140625; t=1432420213; bh=Q3yboWlHiWmJ9yvNNjA+R+4ldspHPD3nQwWaajg3qgs=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=QJ9z5rohv80G1Z2f/zewY+7CBwzLjK2abwWaxzLUS10gF6jYNybpGd3r1N5+TUYP/ ZhBys46YhSi1/HD0iIxEMu1XKazfHuVXEqWLG2KLIFW97l6y1hSIsQLNijRbvPnhn8 P2MrfRWXXblyUNefb6bX4TJN+uIsPTAMDu8cj+Pw= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1adecf5560ff751082 X-Scan-Signature: 2015a9c9c70c0326c96b00c8a41f50f5 Subject: Re: LF: False Decode or Real? - Opera vs opds Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8D263BF2B9B4207_1DD8_1C685_webmail-va074.sysops.aol.com" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3232 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8D263BF2B9B4207_1DD8_1C685_webmail-va074.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" =20For=20the=20record,=20I=20should=20probably=20correct=20a=20couple=20of=20min= or=20errors=20in=20my=20last=20post:=0D=0A?=0D=0AThe=20Opera=20software=20versio= n=20used=20in=20the=20test=20was=201.5.4=20(ie.=20the=20last=20one=20before=20dy= namic),=20not=201.5.6.=20=0D=0A?=0D=0AScaling=20from=20Op-05=20to=20Op-32=20was=20= of=20course=20by=2018=20dB,=20not=2024=20dB.=20I=20had=20tested=20it=20with=20Op= -8=20setting=20first,=20and=20then=20switched=20to=2005=20to=20aquire=20a=20reas= onable=20number=20of=20results=20for=20statistics.=20After=20scaling,=20the=20re= sults=20of=20the=20slow=20and=20quick=20tests=20were=20comparable=20so=20there=20= was=20no=20indication=20of=20different=20decoding=20techniques=20at=20work.=0D=0A= ?=0D=0ALooking=20at=20the=20detectability=20graph,=20to=20be=20fair=20I=20should= =20probably=20not=20claim=20a=20-49=20dB=20limit=20but=20rather=20-48=20dB,=20wh= ich=20would=20then=20be=20only=203=20dB=20below=20-45=20dB=20for=20Dynamic-DS.=20= What=20is=20noticeable=20is=20that=20the=20decoder=20falls=20off=20pretty=20shar= ply=20between=20-39=20dB=20for=20"all"=20and=20-41=20dB=20for=20"nothing"=20(pro= bably=20typical=20for=20any=20FEC=20coding=20scheme=20with=20checksums),=20where= as=20the=20correlation=20process=20degrades=20more=20softly=20in=20an=20"analog"= =20fashion=20with=20decreasing=20success=20rate=20(probably=20also=20true=20for=20= "dynamic").=0D=0A?=0D=0ABest=2073,=0D=0AMarkus=20(DF6NM)=0D=0A?=0D=0A=0D=0ALF:=20= False=20Decode=20or=20Real?=20-=20Opera=20vs=20opds=20=0D=0AVon:=20Markus=20Vest= er=20<markusvester@aol.com>=20=0D=0AAn:=20rsgb_lf_group=20<rsgb_lf_grou= p@blacksheep.org>=20=0D=0ADatum:=20Sa,=2023=20Mai=202015=208:24=20pm=20=0D=0A= Anhang=20Success_rate.png?=20=0D=0AAnhang=20SNR_output.png??=20=0D=0A?=0D=0AHi=20= Graham,=0D=0A?=0D=0A>=20OPDS=20makes=20use=20of?=20Wolfs??=20some=20what=20ex= cellent=20spectrum?=20software=20as=20DSP=20=0D=0A?=0D=0ASpectrum=20Lab=20is=20u= sed=20as=20the=20frontend=20for=20opds,=20the=20only=20signal=20processing=20don= e=20there=20is=20a=20straight=20high-resolution=20FFT=20before=20exporting=20the= =20data.=20Opds=20then=20searches=20for=20spectral=20peaks,=20and=20transforms=20= a=201024=20bin=20channel=20around=20each=20peak=20back=20to=20time=20domain=20(0= .5=20Hz=20wide,=204x=20oversampled).=20For=20coherent=20signals,=20the=20central= =20carrier=20is=20extracted=20(including=20possible=20drift=20and=20fading),=20a= nd=20synchroneous=20demodulation=20is=20performed.=20Then=20the=20resulting=20re= al=20waveform=20is=20Fourier=20transformed=20again=20for=20a=20CPU-efficient=20c= rosscorrelation=20to=20each=20of=20the=20callsign=20templates.=0D=0A?=0D=0A>=20= both?=20systems?=20reliably?=20produce??=20false=20detections?=20when?=20subject= ed=20to?=20noise=20..=0D=0A?=0D=0AOpds-32=20has=20been=20running=20on=20LF=20her= e=20continuously,=20typically=20analyzing=20about=2020=20QRM=20peaks=20every=201= 0=20minutes=20in=20a=20115=20Hz=20wide=20band.=20The=20searchlist=20contains=20c= urrently=20around=2050=20entries.=20With=20a=20correlation=20threshold=20of=2015= =20dB,=2028=20false=20detections=20have=20occured=20in=2020=20weeks=20since=20ye= ar=202015:=20=0D=0A?https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/opds32.txt=0D=0A= In=20a=20pdf=20file=20distributed=20with=20Opera=201.5.7=20software,=20the=20aut= hor=20EA5HVK=20mentions=20that=20he=20tested=20opds=20and=20got=2011=20false=20d= etections=20in=20only=204=20hours=20-=20an=20observation=20which=20is=20obviousl= y=20not=20corroberated=20by=20my=20statistics.=0D=0A?=0D=0A>=20hence?=20ultra= =20stable?=20TX=20and?=20RX=20can=20give?=20advantage=0D=0A?=0D=0ABy=20using=20s= ynchroneous=20demodulation=20rather=20than=20power=20detection,=20opds=20can=20d= etect=20coherent=20and=20stable=20signals=20that=20about=204=20dB=20weaker.=20At= tached=20are=20two=20plots,=20showing=20a=20side-by-side=20comparison=20of=20det= ection=20probability=20and=20SNR=20output=20from=20the=20Opera=201.5.6=20decoder= =20and=20the=20opds2h5c=20detector.=0D=0A?=0D=0ASpecLab's=20digimode=20terminal=20= was=20used=20to=20generated=20coherent=20and=20perfectly=20timed=20Opera=20signa= ls,=20and=20white=20noise=20from=20the=20test=20signal=20generator=20was=20added= =20with=20variable=20power=20density=20(dB/Hz).=20The=20very=20same=20output=20w= as=20analyzed=20within=20SpecLab=20to=20feed=20opds,=20and=20played=20to=20the=20= Opera=20software=20using=20VAC.=20To=20speed=20up=20the=20experiments,=20all=20t= esting=20was=20done=20at=20Op-05=20speed=20(30=20seconds),=20and=20SNR=20values=20= were=20then=20scaled=20down=20by=2024=20dB=20to=20Opera-32.=20During=20the=20tes= t,=20no=20false=20detections=20were=20observed=20in=20the=20output=20from=20eith= er=20program.=20=0D=0A?=0D=0AIn=20the=20attached=20plot=20successrate.png,=20the= =20solid=20lines=20with=20squares=20show=20detection=20probability=20(0=20to=201= 00%)=20against=20average=20SNR=20in=202.5=20kHz.=20The=20classic=20Opera=20decod= er=20(red)=20achieved=2050=20%=20detections=20at=20-40=20dB.=20Opds=20correlatio= n=20(blue)=20goes=20down=20to=20-49=20dB,=20showing=20a=204=20dB=20advantage=20f= or=20these=20ideal=20signals.=20The=20blue=20crosses=20indicate=20correlation=20= dB=20output=20from=20opds=20-=20note=20that=20only=20hits=20above=20the=20standa= rd=2015=20dB=20threshold=20(dashed=20line)=20were=20counted=20as=20successful=20= detections.=20=0D=0A?=0D=0ASNR_output.png=20shows=20indicated=20SNR=20values=20v= ersus=20actual=20SNR=20from=20both=20programs.=20Opera=201.5.6=20seemed=20to=20c= onsistently=20read=201=20dB=20high,=20whereas=20opds=20reads=20approximately=201= =20or=202=20dB=20low,=20with=20a=20larger=20scatter.=20Part=20of=20this=20negati= ve=20offset=20is=20because=20I=20had=20originally=20assumed=20the=20"dBOp"=20sca= le=20to=20be=20referenced=204=20dB=20(instead=20of=203=20dB)=20below=20PEP.=0D=0A= ?=0D=0AI=20have=20not=20yet=20tested=20the=20dynamic=20deep=20search=20in=20Oper= a=201.5.7,=20but=20the=20claimed=20-45=20dB=20threshold=20(ie.=205=20dB=20better= =20than=20the=20decoder)=20seems=20quite=20plausible.=20I=20believe=20opds=20is=20= also=20around=204=20dB=20less=20sensitive=20for=20non-coherent=20signals,=20whic= h=20would=20then=20put=20both=20programs=20in=20the=20same=20ballpark.=0D=0A?=0D= =0A>=20Now=20mines=20a?=20pint?=20or?=20are=20we=20onto?=20shorts?=20now=20?=0D= =0A?=0D=0APlease=20explain...=0D=0A?=0D=0AAll=20the=20best,=0D=0AMarkus=20(DF6NM= )=0D=0A?=0A=0A ----------MB_8D263BF2B9B4207_1DD8_1C685_webmail-va074.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" =0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A
=20For=20= the=20record,=20I=20should=20probably=20correct=20a=20couple=20of=20minor=20erro= rs=20in=20my=20last=20post:
=0D=0A=0D=0A
 
=0D=0A=0D=0A
T= he=20Opera=20software=20version=20used=20in=20the=20test=20was=201.5.4=20(ie.=20= the=20last=20one=20before=20dynamic),=20not=201.5.6.=20
=0D=0A=0D=0A
&n= bsp;
=0D=0A=0D=0A
Scaling=20from=20Op-05=20to=20Op-32=20was=20of=20cour= se=20by=2018=20dB,=20not=2024=20dB.=20I=20had=20tested=20it=20with=20Op-8=20sett= ing=20first,=20and=20then=20switched=20to=2005=20to=20aquire=20a=20reasonable=20= number=20of=20results=20for=20statistics.=20After=20scaling,=20the=20results=20o= f=20the=20slow=20and=20quick=20tests=20were=20comparable=20so=20there=20was=20no= =20indication=20of=20different=20decoding=20techniques=20at=20work.
=0D=0A=0D= =0A
 
=0D=0A=0D=0A
Looking=20at=20the=20detectability=20graph,= =20to=20be=20fair=20I=20should=20probably=20not=20claim=20a=20-49=20dB=20limit=20= but=20rather=20-48=20dB,=20which=20would=20then=20be=20only=203=20dB=20below=20-= 45=20dB=20for=20Dynamic-DS.=20What=20is=20noticeable=20is=20that=20the=20decoder= =20falls=20off=20pretty=20sharply=20between=20-39=20dB=20for=20"all"=20and=20-41= =20dB=20for=20"nothing"=20(probably=20typical=20for=20any=20FEC=20coding=20schem= e=20with=20checksums),=20whereas=20the=20correlation=20process=20degrades=20more= =20softly=20in=20an=20"analog"=20fashion=20with=20decreasing=20success=20rate=20= (probably=20also=20true=20for=20"dynamic").
=0D=0A=0D=0A
 
=0D= =0A=0D=0A
Best=2073,
=0D=0AMarkus=20(DF6NM)
=0D=0A=0D=0A
 <= br>=0D=0A
=0D=0A=0D=0A
LF:=20False=20Decode=20or=20Real?=20-=20Opera=20= vs=20opds=20
=0D=0AVon:=20Markus=20Vester=20<markusvester@aol.com>=20
=0D=0AAn:=20rsgb_lf_group=20<= rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>=20
=0D=0ADatum:=20Sa,=2023=20Mai=202015=208:24=20pm=20
=0D=0AAnhang= =20Success_rate.png =20
=0D=0AAnhang=20SNR_output.png  =20=0D=0A=0D=0A
 
=0D=0A=0D=0A
Hi=20Graham,
=0D=0A=0D=0A 
=0D=0A=0D=0A
>=20OPDS=20makes=20use=20of =20Wolfs&nbs= p; =20some=20what=20excellent=20spectrum =20software=20as=20DSP=20=0D=0A=0D=0A
 
=0D=0A=0D=0A
Spectrum=20Lab=20is=20used=20as=20= the=20frontend=20for=20opds,=20the=20only=20signal=20processing=20done=20there=20= is=20a=20straight=20high-resolution=20FFT=20before=20exporting=20the=20data.=20O= pds=20then=20searches=20for=20spectral=20peaks,=20and=20transforms=20a=201024=20= bin=20channel=20around=20each=20peak=20back=20to=20time=20domain=20(0.5=20Hz=20w= ide,=204x=20oversampled).=20For=20coherent=20signals,=20the=20central=20carrier=20= is=20extracted=20(including=20possible=20drift=20and=20fading),=20and=20synchron= eous=20demodulation=20is=20performed.=20Then=20the=20resulting=20real=20waveform= =20is=20Fourier=20transformed=20again=20for=20a=20CPU-efficient=20crosscorrelati= on=20to=20each=20of=20the=20callsign=20templates.
=0D=0A=0D=0A
 =0D=0A=0D=0A
>=20both =20systems =20reliably =20produc= e  =20false=20detections =20when =20subjected=20to =20n= oise=20..
=0D=0A=0D=0A
 
=0D=0A=0D=0A
Opds-32=20has=20bee= n=20running=20on=20LF=20here=20continuously,=20typically=20analyzing=20about=202= 0=20QRM=20peaks=20every=2010=20minutes=20in=20a=20115=20Hz=20wide=20band.=20The=20= searchlist=20contains=20currently=20around=2050=20entries.=20With=20a=20correlat= ion=20threshold=20of=2015=20dB,=2028=20false=20detections=20have=20occured=20in=20= 20=20weeks=20since=20year=202015:=20
=0D=0A https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26= 404526/opds32.txt
=0D=0AIn=20a=20pdf=20file=20distributed=20with=20Opera=20= 1.5.7=20software,=20the=20author=20EA5HVK=20mentions=20that=20he=20tested=20opds= =20and=20got=2011=20false=20detections=20in=20only=204=20hours=20-=20an=20observ= ation=20which=20is=20obviously=20not=20corroberated=20by=20my=20statistics.=0D=0A=0D=0A
 
=0D=0A=0D=0A
>=20hence =20ultra=20stab= le =20TX=20and =20RX=20can=20give =20advantage
=0D=0A=0D=0A<= div> 
=0D=0A=0D=0A
By=20using=20synchroneous=20demodulation=20rath= er=20than=20power=20detection,=20opds=20can=20detect=20coherent=20and=20stable=20= signals=20that=20about=204=20dB=20weaker.=20Attached=20are=20two=20plots,=20show= ing=20a=20side-by-side=20comparison=20of=20detection=20probability=20and=20SNR=20= output=20from=20the=20Opera=201.5.6=20decoder=20and=20the=20opds2h5c=20detector.=
=0D=0A=0D=0A
 
=0D=0A=0D=0A
SpecLab's=20digimode=20termi= nal=20was=20used=20to=20generated=20coherent=20and=20perfectly=20timed=20Opera=20= signals,=20and=20white=20noise=20from=20the=20test=20signal=20generator=20was=20= added=20with=20variable=20power=20density=20(dB/Hz).=20The=20very=20same=20outpu= t=20was=20analyzed=20within=20SpecLab=20to=20feed=20opds,=20and=20played=20to=20= the=20Opera=20software=20using=20VAC.=20To=20speed=20up=20the=20experiments,=20a= ll=20testing=20was=20done=20at=20Op-05=20speed=20(30=20seconds),=20and=20SNR=20v= alues=20were=20then=20scaled=20down=20by=2024=20dB=20to=20Opera-32.=20During=20t= he=20test,=20no=20false=20detections=20were=20observed=20in=20the=20output=20fro= m=20either=20program.=20
=0D=0A=0D=0A
 
=0D=0A=0D=0A
In=20= the=20attached=20plot=20successrate.png,=20the=20solid=20lines=20with=20squares=20= show=20detection=20probability=20(0=20to=20100%)=20against=20average=20SNR=20in=20= 2.5=20kHz.=20The=20classic=20Opera=20decoder=20(red)=20achieved=2050=20%=20detec= tions=20at=20-40=20dB.=20Opds=20correlation=20(blue)=20goes=20down=20to=20-49=20= dB,=20showing=20a=204=20dB=20advantage=20for=20these=20ideal=20signals.=20The=20= blue=20crosses=20indicate=20correlation=20dB=20output=20from=20opds=20-=20note=20= that=20only=20hits=20above=20the=20standard=2015=20dB=20threshold=20(dashed=20li= ne)=20were=20counted=20as=20successful=20detections.=20
=0D=0A=0D=0A
&n= bsp;
=0D=0A=0D=0A
SNR_output.png=20shows=20indicated=20SNR=20values=20v= ersus=20actual=20SNR=20from=20both=20programs.=20Opera=201.5.6=20seemed=20to=20c= onsistently=20read=201=20dB=20high,=20whereas=20opds=20reads=20approximately=201= =20or=202=20dB=20low,=20with=20a=20larger=20scatter.=20Part=20of=20this=20negati= ve=20offset=20is=20because=20I=20had=20originally=20assumed=20the=20"dBOp"=20sca= le=20to=20be=20referenced=204=20dB=20(instead=20of=203=20dB)=20below=20PEP.=0D=0A=0D=0A
 
=0D=0A=0D=0A
I=20have=20not=20yet=20tested=20t= he=20dynamic=20deep=20search=20in=20Opera=201.5.7,=20but=20the=20claimed=20-45=20= dB=20threshold=20(ie.=205=20dB=20better=20than=20the=20decoder)=20seems=20quite=20= plausible.=20I=20believe=20opds=20is=20also=20around=204=20dB=20less=20sensitive= =20for=20non-coherent=20signals,=20which=20would=20then=20put=20both=20programs=20= in=20the=20same=20ballpark.
=0D=0A=0D=0A
 
=0D=0A=0D=0A
&= gt;=20Now=20mines=20a =20pint =20or =20are=20we=20onto =20sh= orts =20now=20?
=0D=0A=0D=0A
 
=0D=0A=0D=0A
Please=20= explain...
=0D=0A=0D=0A
 
=0D=0A=0D=0A
All=20the=20best,<= br>=0D=0AMarkus=20(DF6NM)
=0D=0A=0D=0A
 
=0D=0A ----------MB_8D263BF2B9B4207_1DD8_1C685_webmail-va074.sysops.aol.com--