Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1102; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id t48IpuNw010444 for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 20:51:56 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1YqnJu-0002tF-Nd for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 19:48:22 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1YqnJu-0002t6-C7 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 19:48:22 +0100 Received: from smtpout3.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.59] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1YqnJr-00016M-R5 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 19:48:21 +0100 Received: from AGB ([95.150.81.27]) by mwinf5d38 with ME id RWoJ1q0060bMuNP03WoJrv; Fri, 08 May 2015 20:48:18 +0200 X-ME-Helo: AGB X-ME-Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 20:48:18 +0200 X-ME-IP: 95.150.81.27 Message-ID: <706F58A8385A4929A6285FB68C8626EA@AGB> From: "Graham" To: References: <4B2BCE47BD6948849A073E2E814D05A7@gnat> In-Reply-To: <4B2BCE47BD6948849A073E2E814D05A7@gnat> Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 19:48:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Scan-Signature: c7a664e36c9ca637ce420897bb72a08a Subject: Re: LF: Re: UNIPOLE V INV-L ? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0078_01D089C7.EE1ED680" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3072 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01D089C7.EE1ED680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok Alan, ..laws=20 That's easy , just claim there linked to dark matter , then = anything go's : ) =20 A ground mounted ui-pole , is it really just a short thin loop = ? , if the ATU earth is bonded to the ground point ? , IF..the = current at the earth and at the feed point are equal and = opposite , then nothing will happen , or have I missed something = ? or is there a diminishing distribution , but over a short = loop , what go's out , must come back to the tuner ? what's = radiating or is it establishing a near field by cancelation , ala = counter-would ? .. Its something that could be erected in the uk = 20x40 back plot..=20 This talks of top loading and 'ground reference system ' what = ever that is , no info , unless its a tuned counterpoise .... = something I had not though of , tuner in the earth line to match = to the ground z on 477 .... what happens at commercial mw = sites , marine wise the hull is earth ?=20 appears to have a cage of wires to increase the tower diameter = , the tower is actually broken up with insulators , once again , = may be the effort should be in establishing a top loaded vertical = cage / top ,loading and not a multi wire top ? bbc mw tx side =20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Radio_Derby#/media/File:BMast.jpg nav text mf Ae =20 https://www.lbagroup.com/images/PDFs/samwas_200_specsheet.pdf Ranges on the radiation plot look familiar 250/300 K first skip = ? 73-G,=20 From: Alan Melia=20 Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 5:28 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: Re: UNIPOLE V INV-L ? Hi G,=20 Well the Laws of Physics dont change however much one might wish it :-)) The unipole will be approx -3dB ERP on the inv L Effective height of unipole approx half physical height Effective height of inv L same height with 1.5*h top is approx 0.9* = physical height inv L disadvantage.....requires another support and insulators inv L advantage ........over poor ground with the same feed-point = grounding the inL will have lower ground loss and higher capacity. Over = good ground or sea-water this advantage may disappear, but losses will = be low anyway. I think this folded monopole is covered in Rik's tutorial, the extra = wires are just "matching" they dont increase the radiation resistance. = Commercial stations like grounded aerials for lightning protection. Alan G3NYK=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Graham=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 4:54 PM Subject: LF: UNIPOLE V INV-L ? UNI-POLE V INV-L ? https://www.lbagroup.com/products/tunipole-combipole-antenna-systems Assuming a robust ATU and earth =20 What would be the advantage / disadvantage of say a 40 foot = uni-pole , to a conventional 40 x 60 ft inv L at MF ? tower and side wire or RG8U / copper pipe construction ? = ......... -3 dB of a similar size loop ? 73-Graham G0NBD ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01D089C7.EE1ED680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok Alan,  ..laws
 
That's  easy  , just claim there linked to  = dark =20 matter , then  anything  go's   : ) 
 
A ground  mounted  ui-pole , is it  really  = just =20 a  short    thin loop  ? , if the   = ATU =20 earth  is  bonded to  the  ground  point  = ? ,=20 IF..the  current   at the   earth =  and =20 at   the  feed point  are  equal  and =  opposite , then  nothing  will  happen , or =20 have  I missed  something  ?   or is  = there =20 a  diminishing  distribution  , but  over = a  short=20 loop  , what  go's  out , must  come  back = to =20 the  tuner  ?   what's  radiating  or = is it=20 establishing  a  near  field   by = cancelation ,=20 ala counter-would   ? .. Its  something that  could = be =20 erected  in the   uk 20x40   back   = plot..=20
 
This  talks  of  top loading  and   = 'ground=20 reference system '  what  ever that  is , no =20 info  , unless  its a  tuned  counterpoise  = ....=20 something  I had not  though of ,   tuner  in = the =20 earth line  to  match  to the  ground  = z   on=20 477 ....   what  happens  at commercial   = mw =20 sites , marine  wise  the  hull  is earth  ? =
 
 appears  to  have  a  cage of  = wires =20 to  increase  the  tower diameter ,  the  = tower =20 is actually  broken  up  with  insulators  , = once again=20 ,  may be the  effort  should be  in = establishing =20 a  top loaded  vertical  cage / top ,loading    = and  not  a  multi  wire  top ?
 
 
bbc  mw  tx  side 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Radio_Derby#/media/File:BMast.jpg=
 
nav text  mf  Ae 
 
ht= tps://www.lbagroup.com/images/PDFs/samwas_200_specsheet.pdf
 
 
Ranges  on the   radiation  plot  = look =20 familiar   250/300 K first  skip ?
 
73-G,
 

From: Alan Melia
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 5:28 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: LF: Re: UNIPOLE V INV-L ?

Hi G,
Well the Laws of Physics dont change = however much=20 one might wish it :-))
 
The unipole will be approx -3dB ERP on = the inv=20 L
 
Effective height of unipole approx half = physical=20 height
Effective height of inv L same height = with 1.5*h=20 top is approx 0.9* physical height
 
inv L disadvantage.....requires another = support and=20 insulators
inv L advantage ........over poor = ground with the=20 same feed-point grounding the inL will have lower ground loss and higher = capacity. Over good ground or sea-water this advantage may disappear, = but losses=20 will be low anyway.
 
I think this folded monopole is covered = in Rik's=20 tutorial, the extra wires are just "matching" they dont increase the = radiation=20 resistance. Commercial stations like grounded aerials for lightning=20 protection.
 
Alan
G3NYK 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Graham
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 4:54 = PM
Subject: LF: UNIPOLE V INV-L = ?

UNI-POLE  V  INV-L ?
 
https://www.lbagroup.com/products/tunipole-combipole-antenna-systems=
 
Assuming  a robust   ATU and   earth=20   
 
What would be the  advantage  / = disadvantage  =20 of  say  a   40  foot  uni-pole =20 ,   to  a  conventional     40 = x=20 60   ft  inv L   at  MF ?
 
tower  and  side wire  or   RG8U  / = copper  pipe  construction ? .........  -3 dB  of = a =20 similar size loop  ?
 
73-Graham
G0NBD
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