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[129.206.22.206]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id k9sm18231863wia.6.2015.04.28.14.25.22 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Apr 2015 14:25:23 -0700 (PDT) From: DK7FC <73dk7fc@googlemail.com> X-Google-Original-From: DK7FC <73dk7fc@gmail.com> Message-ID: <553FFAC1.7060609@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 23:25:21 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B0F416E@servigilant.vigilant.local> In-Reply-To: <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B0F416E@servigilant.vigilant.local> X-Scan-Signature: 8044ff87f22777286b33afb193e0811f Subject: Re: LF: Re: New QRPPP test to night on WSPR 2 MF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080604010206050706020406" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3026 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080604010206050706020406 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Luis, Thanks for your mail and the images. The construction looks quite nice! And it's comfortable that you can turn the C from the shack. It's a pity that your are nor using a INV-L or so from that building. But i know about the problems. At least it's a good first step to get some RF into the air. The construction looks quite robust, probably you can run 100W and more into that antenna. What about a vertical loop? If there is a lightning protection system on the building you may use that as a part of the loop? Or some type of gamma match? :-) With 25W TX power i got a WSPR report in 450 km distance with a 1m diameter vertical loop! https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19882028/MF/MF%20TX%20loop%20all.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19882028/MF/MF%20TX%20loop%20zoom.jpg So maybe if you try experiments with a separate loop (to compare both) of high circumference it may work a bit better? Just some ideas what could be done in this situation... 73, Stefan Am 28.04.2015 17:54, schrieb VIGILANT Luis Fernández: > Hi Stefan > We try to spread interest by publishing information and results in the > URE forum, which has a dedicated area to long waves > http://www.ure.es/foro/17-ondas-largas.html > But you are right. Active motivation is the key. You proved it clearly > on your Christmast transmission last winter > Noted. I'll try to do something when I be grown up ...in ERP :-) > Did you measure the RF current into your loop? Is the loop vertical or > horizontal? What is the height above ground? > The best I did was a current measurement tester based on G4HUP (and > others) design http://g4hup.com/RFC/RFC.htm > This was a great help to know were was the loop resonating and tune it > correctly > I have installed it permanently in the loop and have the > milliamperimeter down in the shack connected by two wires > The variable capacitor is motorized, so I can fine tune the loop from > the shack. And yes .... tunning is sharp ! > But the RF current system is not calibrated. So I use it as > differential indicator > The maximum current I can get in the DC line is 5mA. Don't know which > is the relation of the ferrite transformer > I'm using 10 turns as secodary > Capacitors are good QRO ones. All is ready to "grown up". Life is too > short for QRPPPP :-))) > I'm living in the antenna tower. Or better said, the antenna is on top > of a building tower which makes 28th floors .... about 80m high > As I can not simply hang it from top, the loop is installed > horizontally using as much as possible of the free terrace area on top > The loop uses 70m RG59 coax cable using braid+inner shorted at the > ends. I use 1 m PVC tube poles on top of ventilation > chimmenys to support the loop. It is terminated in a cabinet were I > have room enought for the variable capacitor and future PA > This links to pictures showing the box > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7162072/Fotos%20varias/MF/CAM00342.jpg > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7162072/Fotos%20varias/MF/CAM00343.jpg > And this is the variable capacitor + 800pF fixed caps + motor speed > reducer/controller + Sensing current + Coupling transformer > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7162072/Fotos%20varias/MF/CAM00370.jpg > I choosed the loop because at this height from ground, any ground > referenced antenna would hardly work (or that's what I suppose) > It is not easy visible to the neighbours and not disturbing as a > vertical pole or any other top loaded antennas would be. And highly > resistant to winds. It actually uses five support poles and the RG59 > is not a heavy load > Like it ! :-) > 73 de Luis > EA5DOM > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *De:* owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] *En nombre de *DK7FC > *Enviado el:* martes, 28 de abril de 2015 13:44 > *Para:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Asunto:* Re: LF: Re: New QRPPP test to night on WSPR 2 MF > > Hi Luis, > > Am 28.04.2015 10:34, schrieb VIGILANT Luis Fernández: >> The closer station is Maxi EA5CV. But he lacks a good Rx and antenna >> for MF > As long as the frequency of the RX is stable, it should work well. A > deaf RX can produce good results if the input signal is strong, you > know. For example, if he has a IC706 and a dipole for the 40m band, he > could make a T antenna out of the dipole, with a resonated > tuning/matching. This should provide enough signal strength and > prevent QRM / RX overload due to the spectrum limitation. > >> Unfortunately there is no interest at all in the local hams for >> activities other than DX pileups in HF > 599! > > But i think there are good chances to find new stations in EA! You > just need to search them actively. For example: Use the WSPR map, > select all bands and 24h, and see which station is active in EA. Then > contact him/her by qrz.com and ask for a cooperation, generate some > motivation to try something really new and exciting... If you contact > such a station, you know that it is active, it has a internet > connection and a running PC and knows what WSPR is. Then it is more > likely to get a positive feedback. Maybe it's better to focus on > stations being active on the lower bands rather than 10m or so. > I just made the test and found 14 from EA and 2 from CT :-) > If you decide to find one from EA, i will go to find one from CT. I > know it works because i have done it in the past, on LF :-) > >> and summit activations on 40m during weekends. Ah! .... and some >> digital voices modes too > Beeing outside the shack is a good first step! But 40m is the wrong > band ;-) >> My best reference is my own Rx site at 7Km using MiniWhip and Perseus >> + SDR-Console V2 >> which provides up to 6 VFOs sending each the audio stream to a >> different decoder >> The nice side of QRPP is that any small change worth the efforts. And >> there is plenty of room for improving ! > Oh yes indeed, i also noted that it is easier to improve the signal by > 20 dB if you are starting at 1 mW TX pwr rather than 100 W :-) >> Tx running 7/24. Water cooling the 2xBS170 but it worths !!! ;-) > Yes, a BS170 is a good choice for a 3.3V output and it also has a very > low input capacity. It was my first idea to use a BS170 for the > Raspberry project too. But actually i find that a ICL7667 is a better > choice, even if the output is 4*f, i.e. ~ 1900 kHz for MF. > My 12V 100W PA is using an ICL7667 as the MOSFET driver (2x IRFZ48N), > so you can use your > QRPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP signal and > realise a (power) gain of > 40 dB :-) > > Did you measure the RF current into your loop? Is the loop vertical or > horizontal? What is the height above ground? > I recommend to watch the antenna current because at higher power > levels, the C can warm up and detune the loop. The resulting mismatch > will then reduce the power taken from the PA... > Nice hobby :-) > > 73, Stefan >> 73 de Luis >> EA5DOM --------------080604010206050706020406 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Luis,

Thanks for your mail and the images. The construction looks quite nice! And it's comfortable that you can turn the C from the shack.
It's a pity that your are nor using a INV-L or so from that building. But i know about the problems.
At least it's a good first step to get some RF into the air. The construction looks quite robust, probably you can run 100W and more into that antenna.

What about a vertical loop? If there is a lightning protection system on the building you may use that as a part of the loop? Or some type of gamma match? :-)

With 25W TX power i got a WSPR report in 450 km distance with a 1m diameter vertical loop!
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19882028/MF/MF%20TX%20loop%20all.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19882028/MF/MF%20TX%20loop%20zoom.jpg

So maybe if you try experiments with a separate loop (to compare both) of high circumference it may work a bit better?
Just some ideas what could be done in this situation...

73, Stefan


Am 28.04.2015 17:54, schrieb VIGILANT Luis Fernández:
Hi Stefan
 
We try to spread interest by publishing information and results in the URE forum, which has a dedicated area to long waves
 
But you are right. Active motivation is the key. You proved it clearly on your Christmast transmission last winter
Noted. I'll try to do something when I be grown up ...in ERP :-)
 
Did you measure the RF current into your loop? Is the loop vertical or horizontal? What is the height above ground?
The best I did was a current measurement tester based on G4HUP (and others) design http://g4hup.com/RFC/RFC.htm
This was a great help to know were was the loop resonating and tune it correctly
I have installed it permanently in the loop and have the milliamperimeter down in the shack connected by two wires
The variable capacitor is motorized, so I can fine tune the loop from the shack. And yes .... tunning is sharp !
 
But the RF current system is not calibrated. So I use it as differential indicator
The maximum current I can get in the DC line is 5mA. Don't know which is the relation of the ferrite transformer
I'm using 10 turns as secodary
 
Capacitors are good QRO ones. All is ready to "grown up". Life is too short for QRPPPP  :-)))
 
I'm living in the antenna tower. Or better said, the antenna is on top of a building tower which makes 28th floors .... about 80m high
As I can not simply hang it from top, the loop is installed horizontally using as much as possible of the free terrace area on top
The loop uses 70m RG59 coax cable using braid+inner shorted at the ends. I use 1 m PVC tube poles on top of ventilation
chimmenys to support the loop. It is terminated in a cabinet were I have room enought for the variable capacitor and future PA
 
This links to pictures showing the box
 
And this is the variable capacitor + 800pF fixed caps + motor speed reducer/controller + Sensing current + Coupling transformer
 
 
I choosed the loop because at this height from ground, any ground referenced antenna would hardly work (or that's what I suppose)
It is not easy visible to the neighbours and not disturbing as a vertical pole or any other top loaded antennas would be. And highly
resistant to winds. It actually uses five support poles and the RG59 is not a heavy load
 
Like it ! :-)
 
73 de Luis
EA5DOM
De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] En nombre de DK7FC
Enviado el: martes, 28 de abril de 2015 13:44
Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Asunto: Re: LF: Re: New QRPPP test to night on WSPR 2 MF

Hi Luis,

Am 28.04.2015 10:34, schrieb VIGILANT Luis Fernández:
The closer station is Maxi EA5CV. But he lacks a good Rx and antenna for MF
As long as the frequency of the RX is stable, it should work well. A deaf RX can produce good results if the input signal is strong, you know. For example, if he has a IC706 and a dipole for the 40m band, he could make a T antenna out of the dipole, with a resonated tuning/matching. This should provide enough signal strength and prevent QRM / RX overload due to the spectrum limitation.

Unfortunately there is no interest at all in the local hams for activities other than DX pileups in HF
599!

But i think there are good chances to find new stations in EA! You just need to search them actively. For example: Use the WSPR map, select all bands and 24h, and see which station is active in EA. Then contact him/her by qrz.com and ask for a cooperation, generate some motivation to try something really new and exciting... If you contact such a station, you know that it is active, it has a internet connection and a running PC and knows what WSPR is. Then it is more likely to get a positive feedback. Maybe it's better to focus on stations being active on the lower bands rather than 10m or so.
I just made the test and found 14 from EA and 2 from CT :-)
If you decide to find one from EA, i will go to find one from CT. I know it works because i have done it in the past, on LF :-)

and summit activations on 40m during weekends. Ah! .... and some digital voices modes too
Beeing outside the shack is a good first step! But 40m is the wrong band ;-)
 
My best reference is my own Rx site at 7Km using MiniWhip and Perseus + SDR-Console V2
which provides up to 6 VFOs sending each the audio stream to a different decoder
 
The nice side of QRPP is that any small change worth the efforts. And there is plenty of room for improving !
Oh yes indeed, i also noted that it is easier to improve the signal by 20 dB if you are starting at 1 mW TX pwr rather than 100 W :-)
 
Tx running 7/24. Water cooling the 2xBS170 but it worths !!! ;-)
Yes, a BS170 is a good choice for a 3.3V output and it also has a very low input capacity. It was my first idea to use a BS170 for the Raspberry project too. But actually i find that a ICL7667 is a better choice, even if the output is 4*f, i.e. ~ 1900 kHz for MF.
My 12V 100W PA is using an ICL7667 as the MOSFET driver (2x IRFZ48N), so you can use your QRPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP signal and realise a (power) gain of  > 40 dB :-)

Did you measure the RF current into your loop? Is the loop vertical or horizontal? What is the height above ground?
I recommend to watch the antenna current because at higher power levels, the C can warm up and detune the loop. The resulting mismatch will then reduce the power taken from the PA...
Nice hobby :-)

73, Stefan
 
73 de Luis
EA5DOM
--------------080604010206050706020406--