Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1169; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO, RATWARE_GECKO_BUILD autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id t0690LOG010780 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2015 10:00:21 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Y8Psz-0006Ci-Pc for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jan 2015 08:53:09 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Y8Psz-0006CZ-7K for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jan 2015 08:53:09 +0000 Received: from parrot.netcom.co.uk ([217.72.171.49]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1Y8Psw-0002GP-Ub for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Jan 2015 08:53:08 +0000 Received: from sb.abelian.org (i-194-106-52-83.freedom2surf.net [194.106.52.83]) by parrot.netcom.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DCAF3273F7 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2015 08:51:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sb.abelian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D210228A1374 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2015 08:53:05 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <54ABA271.9060201@abelian.org> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 08:53:05 +0000 From: Paul Nicholson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130106 Thunderbird/17.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <54AB0110.3030709@abelian.org> <013401d02939$14569e40$3d03dac0$@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <013401d02939$14569e40$3d03dac0$@comcast.net> X-Scan-Signature: 195b836cb7437e99aa05107459888659 Subject: Re: VLF: Transatlantic messages at 8822Hz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1819 Jim AA5BW wrote: > I'm guessing that the multiple inflections could be > manifestations of amplitude noise alone (given ~14dB SNR > and < 7 degrees between inflections) Yes. To demonstrate... I mixed a locally (software) generated carrier into the audio recording of 1st Jan 00:00 to 07:00, placing it at 8823 Hz and setting the level to match approximately the average amplitude of W4DEX at 8822 Hz. Now we can measure the artificial carrier (which has exact constant phase of -110) against the real background VLF noise. ----W4DEX------ --Simulated---- 00:00 to 01:00 11.6 dB -122.1 11.9 dB -110.7 01:00 to 02:00 13.1 dB -119.4 14.1 dB -100.8 02:00 to 03:00 12.6 dB -131.9 14.9 dB -118.7 03:00 to 04:00 14.3 dB -135.0 13.0 dB -104.1 04:00 to 05:00 12.7 dB -111.0 13.8 dB -121.6 05:00 to 06:00 15.2 dB -118.9 14.4 dB -100.2 06:00 to 07:00 13.4 dB -111.7 13.0 dB -88.1 The phase variations due to propagation are probably similar size... For example, here's the phase of NAA 24kHz for the same time period http://abelian.org/vlf/tmp/naa150101a.gif The overall increase in path length during the night is apparent from the reducing phase lead but there is variation at a wide range of time scales. I'd guess that as we go lower in frequency, the phase variations reduce in proportion. So the ~50 degrees range at 24kHz probably drops to ~20 degrees at 9kHz. Propagation measurements at low VLF are as rare as hen's teeth. Radio amateur transmissions could be useful to some researchers. There is great reliance on propagation models for lower ionospheric research, lightning measurements and long range lightning location systems (which have to adjust arrival time measurements to allow for propagation effects). Data from amateur signals would enable spot checks on model accuracy. A challenging experiment would be to measure the actual path length. This requires transmitting two fairly close frequencies either simultaneously or alternating with FSK. Accurate phase measurements allow the path length to be calculated. -- Paul Nicholson http://abelian.org/ --