Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1290; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK, HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id sAUL9GRY032578 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2014 22:09:16 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1XvBef-0001Ey-6z for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Nov 2014 21:03:41 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1XvBee-0001Ef-Lj for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Nov 2014 21:03:40 +0000 Received: from rgout0507.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk ([65.20.0.228]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1XvBec-00042b-7n for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Nov 2014 21:03:39 +0000 X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A090201.547B8629.0015,ss=1,re=0.000,recu=0.000,reip=0.000,cl=1,cld=1,fgs=0 X-Junkmail-Premium-Raw: score=39/50,refid=2.7.2:2014.11.30.185720:17:39.532,ip=86.145.209.78,rules=__HAS_MSGID, __SANE_MSGID, MSGID_32HEX_LC, INVALID_MSGID_NO_FQDN, __MSGID_32HEX, __HAS_FROM, __PHISH_FROM2, __FRAUD_WEBMAIL_FROM, __TO_MALFORMED_2, __TO_NO_NAME, __REFERENCES, __PHISH_SPEAR_SUBJECT, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT, __SUBJ_ALPHA_END, __MIME_VERSION, __CT, __CTYPE_MULTIPART_ALT, __CTYPE_HAS_BOUNDARY, __CTYPE_MULTIPART, __HAS_X_PRIORITY, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI, __HAS_X_MAILER, USER_AGENT_OE, __OUTLOOK_MUA_1, __USER_AGENT_MS_GENERIC, __ANY_URI, __URI_NO_WWW, __URI_NO_PATH, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE, SUPERLONG_LINE, __HAS_HTML, HTML_NO_HTTP, BODYTEXTP_SIZE_3000_LESS, BODYTEXTH_SIZE_10000_LESS, __MIME_HTML, __TAG_EXISTS_HTML, __STYLE_RATWARE_NEG, RDNS_GENERIC_POOLED, __URI_NS, SXL_IP_DYNAMIC[78.209.145.86.fur], RDNS_SUSP_GENERIC, __PHISH_FROM, __OUTLOOK_MUA, RDNS_SUSP, __FRAUD_WEBMAIL, FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK, REFERENCES X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown Received: from gnat (86.145.209.78) by rgout05.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk (8.6.122.06) (authenticated as alan.melia@btinternet.com) id 5476DDC80071A422 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Nov 2014 21:03:36 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=btcpcloud; t=1417381418; bh=Z+wu67r+g3RbxBxqSuhr6+WbZpUGdyihhOVhEQ/kvTg=; h=Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:X-Mailer; b=GBMOVCYFK29GBvkZuwQ86KYB9mYTFGVFc+Xiuej6PFWkYlHhf6/Luf+HgqywyD+21/vYwfPnj21z7tgNeDlBkzeW0gZ0MsKX04cRYzawYL6gAX4vrDZhRhYb+JD7ed5ar6vcJ3tpavmlH7Okl0RvIGFjbvjKiCZt5FyG9LvnmDk= Message-ID: <9CF61BCC8EBF4D00A5F1FCAC558071BF@gnat> From: "Alan Melia" To: References: <7E54EB21CA344DBDA77B6DC52EC2E9A3@AGB> <9C706A25855346A38B694CE671EBE902@AGB> <39D1FCFE0CBE47008474721D80A1603A@gnat> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 21:03:34 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Scan-Signature: 5f3d51ad98dd7d967f54e1b86b99caac Subject: Re: LF: Alert CFS NDB Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0073_01D00CE1.1A675960" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1346 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01D00CE1.1A675960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Roelof, I had not registered the time.....it is possible that two hop = and the one hop (which is possible, the range is extended by = diffraction/scatter at the ends, so somewhat attenuated) may be in = antiphase when the 2nd hop is in darkness. Then as the daylight washes = out the second hop the 1 hop signal is left as the sole path. Another = option is that the final 2000km is by 2 hops of 1000km from the daytime = D-layer at an altitude of 50km. Although this is usually weak it could = due to the increased path reinforce the one hop before the daylight = reaches mid Atlantic. When I has monitoring for Joe some years back now = I did copy him quite long after sunrise when he forgot to kill the TX in = the morning. In summer the first ray illuminate the D-layer from = underneath and this gives a very high absorbtion leading to the "morning = dip" but in winter it is possible the radiation is not strong enough to = produce high level of absorption.=20 Its all fascinating stuff, a lot of "hand-waving", no real proof, but = its stimulating to think up reasons why it might occur. I think if you = use the "paid-for" version of GeoClock (is it still around?) you can = define the altitude at which the sun rise shadow display is formed. It = is interesting to look at the plot as this passes through the = "reflection" points for the different hop modes. The ideal would be a = constant phase signal and monitor for the phase changes. This would have = been possible with Markus's software on Loran C but unfortunately all = the N. American stations closed down. I am sure I have these isolated = peaks at dawn on some of the old plots I used to make of CFH Newport = Corner, Halifax NS on 137.00kHz ten years or so ago. Best Wishes Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Roelof Bakker=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2014 8:23 PM Subject: Re: LF: Alert CFS NDB Hello Alan, Thank you for the information. That implies at least two hops and the second reflection point in full = daylight. However, at this time of the year "full daylight" is something = different than in June. I gather that in December/January the density of the D-layer is less = than in June. There is also daytime reception, up to the daily solstice of the sun, = over a much longer path than 4000 km. YQ-305, Churchil, Canada Manitoba, is about 5700 km away and YEK-329, = Arivat/Eskimo Point, Canada, Nunavit 5500 km. This should be all multi-hop propagation. 73, Roelof, PA0RDT ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01D00CE1.1A675960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable body { font-family:'Times New Roman'; = font-size:13px} body { font-family:'Times New Roman'; = font-size:13px}
Hi Roelof, I had not registered the = time.....it is=20 possible that two hop and the one hop (which is possible, the range is = extended=20 by diffraction/scatter at the ends, so somewhat attenuated) may be in = antiphase=20 when the 2nd hop is in darkness. Then as the daylight washes out the = second hop=20 the 1 hop signal is left as the sole path. Another option is that the = final=20 2000km is by 2 hops of 1000km from the daytime D-layer at an altitude of = 50km.=20 Although this is usually weak it could due to the increased path = reinforce the=20 one hop before the daylight reaches mid Atlantic. When I has monitoring = for Joe=20 some years back now I did copy him quite long after sunrise when he = forgot to=20 kill the TX in the morning. In summer the first ray illuminate the = D-layer from=20 underneath and this gives a very high absorbtion leading to the "morning = dip"=20 but in winter it is possible the radiation is not strong enough to = produce high=20 level of absorption.
 
Its all fascinating stuff, a lot of = "hand-waving",=20 no real proof, but its stimulating to think up reasons why it might = occur. I=20 think if you use the "paid-for" version of GeoClock (is it still = around?) you=20 can define the altitude at which the sun rise shadow display is formed. = It is=20 interesting to look at the plot as this passes through the "reflection" = points=20 for the different hop modes. The ideal would be a constant phase signal = and=20 monitor for the phase changes. This would have been possible with = Markus's=20 software on Loran C but unfortunately all the N. American stations = closed down.=20 I am sure I have these isolated peaks at dawn on some of the old plots I = used to=20 make of CFH Newport Corner, Halifax NS on 137.00kHz ten years or so=20 ago.
 
Best Wishes
Alan
G3NYK
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Roelof=20 Bakker
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2014 = 8:23=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Alert CFS = NDB

Hello Alan,

Thank you for the information.
That implies at least two hops and the second reflection point in = full=20 daylight.
However, at this time of the year "full daylight" is something = different=20 than in June.
I gather that in December/January the density of the D-layer is = less than=20 in June.

There is also daytime reception, up to the daily solstice of the = sun,=20 over a much longer path than 4000 km.
YQ-305, Churchil, Canada Manitoba, is about 5700 km away and = YEK-329,=20 Arivat/Eskimo Point, Canada, Nunavit 5500 km.
This should be all multi-hop propagation.

73,
Roelof, PA0RDT 
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