Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1233; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=unavailable version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id s94KcCjq001307 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 2014 22:38:12 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1XaW1K-0005XL-03 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 04 Oct 2014 21:33:38 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1XaW1J-0005XC-E5 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 04 Oct 2014 21:33:37 +0100 Received: from mail-oi0-f54.google.com ([209.85.218.54]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1XaW1G-0007oU-CN for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 04 Oct 2014 21:33:36 +0100 Received: by mail-oi0-f54.google.com with SMTP id v63so2148548oia.13 for ; Sat, 04 Oct 2014 13:33:32 -0700 (PDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=PMTtOeco9MC/k3CBVM9aONV8A3vzfBMHaV2Kea0LFi8=; b=vP/IatK5hr5GnFaJ74Rh8sIQseMKrc6KGLH68Tk9wnwyx+xtuDI3mTTcQ0oyktZlxL ebtndubOmvLZM5ooHMugKfa+VkGQxYhj79wLXdfpP9rbLIuOlLZLTBhiDJQcK2jeIWca uzr6Kd0LQNml6YatDk1mSYeutxgk7lb0NDypjE9w4JKmKenmVZSCHN55vqXBT0F1Z9kN 5kxmBIFk1PDlpNLecmAbHaA3NK+KAlSaersiZQV0xgSrlVE1nFDQhtOfZQKE7hDg4v0K rWyqmr6ohoD30bBFSR8RLTi2WLCJ+1h4jGuTgdyN2sR0ijOi00dGIywjNeHY56u0Zxz2 EXSg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.37.165 with SMTP id z5mr16542272oej.16.1412454812266; Sat, 04 Oct 2014 13:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.34.35 with HTTP; Sat, 4 Oct 2014 13:33:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1491176D540A4CD883E87E7DF687A604@White> References: <348B0BEC1F7B46E087035B672ECDF3C0@White> <1491176D540A4CD883E87E7DF687A604@White> Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2014 16:33:32 -0400 Message-ID: From: Warren Ziegler To: rsgb_lf_group X-Scan-Signature: d7e11363ac319cfd7f6e42df098e1b8e Subject: Re: LF: Re: ZEVS RX ant question, now success - 60 Hz in Europe Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013c657658b69905049ec3af X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 642 --089e013c657658b69905049ec3af Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Stefan, There are several power grids in the U.S. Years ago I transmitted facsimile on the HF bands with a mechanical machine that was synchronized to the power grid frequency. When I worked stations on the West Coast with similar machines, the images would be skewed diagonally due to slight differences in the grid frequency - a very nice graphic illustration of the grid frequencies ! Also, the skewing was not constant, so one could see the grids were drifting a bit over time. 73 Warren On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 4:17 PM, Markus Vester wrote: > Thanks Alan. > > Actually the time nuts do keep an online archive > https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/ > ... will look if I can find some hints there. > > 73, Markus > > PS Wish we could have such a nice archive for blacksheep as well ;-) > > > *From:* Alan Melia > *Sent:* Saturday, October 04, 2014 10:07 PM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Subject:* LF: Re: ZEVS RX ant question, now success - 60 Hz in Europe > > Hi Markus there has been a lot of discussion on the time-nuts group > time-nuts@febo.com > on 60Hz frequeny accuracy across the US.. There are web sites which > publish plots of the variation. I am afraid I dont think there is an > archive attachedto the Group, though I believe it is possible to find old > messages. I do have a lot of these I will have a search though it may take > some time. > > Alan > G3NYK > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Markus Vester > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Sent:* Saturday, October 04, 2014 8:58 PM > *Subject:* LF: ZEVS RX ant question, now success - 60 Hz in Europe > > Attempting to resend... > > *From:* Markus Vester > *Sent:* Saturday, October 04, 2014 1:18 AM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Subject:* Re: LF: ZEVS RX ant question, now success - 60 Hz in Europe > > Hi Wolf, Stefan, > > yes I also noticed a weak 60 Hz line during my ELF experiment, and it is > there in the accelerated wav files. Here are two spectrograms with 15.3 mHz > bin width: > http://df6nm.bplaced.net/VLF/ELF/elf_140903_1855-2055_60Hz_82Hz.png > http://df6nm.bplaced.net/VLF/ELF/elf_140904_0541-0741_60Hz_82Hz.png > > Unlike Zevs, 60 Hz seems to be more pronounced during 1855-2055 UT > recording, ie our evening when the Atlantic was still in daylight. It was > hardly visible in the morning, 0541-0741 UT. > > During the two evening hours, the 60 hz line drifted up and down by > about two pixels, 30 mHz. That frequency instability may actually be a > unique signature which can be used to exclude local origin, simply > by comparing simultaneous traces from two different receive sites. I think > there may even be an online log of American line frequency history, > but couldn't find it on the web - any hints from the group? > > Best 73, > Markus (DF6NM) > > > *From:* wolf_dl4yhf > *Sent:* Saturday, October 04, 2014 12:41 AM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Subject:* Re: LF: ZEVS RX ant question, now success > > Hi Stefan and all, > > you wrote: > Yes, a good idea. I will try to catch it :-) But how do i know that it > is the US mains instead of a 60 Hz monitor? Is the 60 Hz from the mains > more stable? > I guess the opposite: Similar to our Eu mains frequency, the US 60 Hz > signal "wanders around" very slowly, as the load changes, but in the long > run they also keep the frequency stable, nation-wide. Not sure about the > maximum excursion from the nominal frequency (I lost the notes and > screenshots years ago when a harddisk died) and how many mHz per minute the > frequency may drift. But you can see the weak 60 Hz trace in Renato > Romero's ZEVS spectrogram at > > http://www.vlf.it/zevs/zevs.htm > > 73, > Wolf . > > -- 73 Warren K2ORS WD2XGJ WD2XSH/23 WE2XEB/2 WE2XGR/1 --089e013c657658b69905049ec3af Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Stefan,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 There are several power g= rids in the U.S.=C2=A0
=C2=A0Years ago I transmitted facsimile on= the HF bands with a mechanical machine that was synchronized to the power = grid frequency.
When I worked stations on the West Coast with sim= ilar machines, the images would be skewed diagonally due to slight differen= ces in the grid frequency - a very nice graphic illustration of the grid fr= equencies ! Also, the skewing was not constant, so one could see the grids = were drifting a bit over time.

73 Warren



On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 4:17 PM, Markus Vester <markusv= ester@aol.com> wrote:
Thanks Alan.
=C2=A0
Actually the time nuts do keep an online=20 archive
... will look if I can find some hints=20 there.
=C2=A0
73, Markus
=C2=A0
PS Wish we could have such a nice=C2=A0archive fo= r=20 blacksheep as well ;-)
=C2=A0

Hi Markus there has been a lot of discussion on t= he=20 time-nuts group time-nuts@febo.com
=C2=A0on 60Hz=20 frequeny accuracy across the US.. There are web sites which publish plots o= f the=20 variation. I am afraid I dont think there is an archive attachedto the Grou= p,=20 though I believe it is possible to find old messages. I do have a lot of th= ese I=20 will have a search though it may take some time.
=C2=A0
Alan
G3NYK
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 8:= 58=20 PM
Subject: LF: ZEVS RX ant question, = now=20 success - 60 Hz in Europe

Attempting to resend...
=C2=A0
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 1:18 AM
Subject: Re: LF: ZEVS RX ant question, now success - 60 Hz in= =20 Europe
<= font face=3D"Arial">
Hi Wolf, Stefan,
=C2=A0
yes I also noticed a weak 60 Hz line during my= =20 ELF experiment, and it is there in the accelerated wav files. Here are tw= o=20 spectrograms with 15.3 mHz bin width:
http://d= f6nm.bplaced.net/VLF/ELF/elf_140903_1855-2055_60Hz_82Hz.png
http://d= f6nm.bplaced.net/VLF/ELF/elf_140904_0541-0741_60Hz_82Hz.png
=C2=A0
Unlike=C2=A0Zevs, 60 Hz seems to be more=20 pronounced during 1855-2055 UT recording, ie our evening when the Atlanti= c was=20 still in daylight. It was hardly visible in the morning, 0541-0741=20 UT.
=C2=A0
During the two evening hours, the 60 hz line=20 drifted up and down by about=C2=A0two pixels, 30 mHz. That frequency=20 instability may actually be a unique signature which can be used to exclu= de=20 local origin, simply by=C2=A0comparing simultaneous traces from two diffe= rent=20 receive sites.=C2=A0I think there may=C2=A0even be an online=C2=A0log of= =20 American line frequency history, but=C2=A0couldn't find it on the web= =20 -=C2=A0any hints from the group?
=C2=A0
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
=C2=A0
<= br>
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: LF: ZEVS RX ant question, now=20 success

Hi Stefan and all,

you wrote:
=C2=A0 Yes,=20 a good idea. I will try to catch it :-) But how do i know that it is the = US=20 mains instead of a 60 Hz monitor? Is the 60 Hz from the mains more=20 stable?
I guess the opposite: Similar to our Eu mains frequency,= the=20 US 60 Hz signal "wanders around" very slowly, as the load chang= es, but in the=20 long run they also keep the frequency stable, nation-wide. Not sure about= the=20 maximum excursion from the nominal frequency (I lost the notes and screen= shots=20 years ago when a harddisk died) and how many mHz per minute the frequency= may=20 drift. But you can see the weak 60 Hz trace in Renato Romero's ZEVS= =20 spectrogram at

http://www.vlf.it/zevs/zevs.htm

73,
=C2=A0=20 Wolf .




--
73 Warren K2= ORS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 WD2XGJ
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 WD2XSH/23
=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 WE2XEB/2
=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 WE2XGR/1

=C2=A0
--089e013c657658b69905049ec3af--