Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1233; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id s94KT4Ak001290 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 2014 22:29:04 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1XaVu1-0005PE-U3 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 04 Oct 2014 21:26:05 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1XaVu1-0005P5-HF for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 04 Oct 2014 21:26:05 +0100 Received: from rgout0305.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk ([65.20.0.211]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1XaVty-0007lr-OO for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 04 Oct 2014 21:26:04 +0100 X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A090202.543057D9.0059,ss=1,re=0.000,recu=0.000,reip=0.000,cl=1,cld=1,fgs=0 X-Junkmail-Premium-Raw: score=39/50,refid=2.7.2:2014.10.3.130921:17:39.532,ip=86.178.175.157,rules=__HAS_MSGID, __SANE_MSGID, MSGID_32HEX_LC, INVALID_MSGID_NO_FQDN, __MSGID_32HEX, __HAS_FROM, __PHISH_FROM2, __FRAUD_WEBMAIL_FROM, __TO_MALFORMED_2, __TO_NO_NAME, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT, __SUBJ_ALPHA_END, __MIME_VERSION, __CT, __CTYPE_MULTIPART_ALT, __CTYPE_HAS_BOUNDARY, __CTYPE_MULTIPART, __HAS_X_PRIORITY, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI, __HAS_X_MAILER, USER_AGENT_OE, __OUTLOOK_MUA_1, __USER_AGENT_MS_GENERIC, __ANY_URI, LINK_TO_IMAGE, URI_ENDS_IN_HTML, __FRAUD_BODY_WEBMAIL, __CP_URI_IN_BODY, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE, SUPERLONG_LINE, __HAS_HTML, BODY_SIZE_10000_PLUS, __MIME_HTML, __TAG_EXISTS_HTML, RDNS_GENERIC_POOLED, __URI_NS, SXL_IP_DYNAMIC[157.175.178.86.fur], HTML_50_70, RDNS_SUSP_GENERIC, __PHISH_FROM, __OUTLOOK_MUA, RDNS_SUSP, __FRAUD_WEBMAIL, FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown Received: from gnat (86.178.175.157) by rgout03.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk (8.6.122.06) (authenticated as alan.melia@btinternet.com) id 542DA287004CA470 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 4 Oct 2014 21:26:01 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=btcpcloud; t=1412454362; bh=ZKp4BHcHcyYAQOEcYKz8qxZKh7riwJD5lgy0LPlCpn4=; h=Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:X-Mailer; b=NMNV1JXMwMi5q3d3iHJNeox+iNDNt7cgTWuzBJZuA46RZkBrPn2nLWjctSu47oyEI4wtAlDZzOof9faDOzxJ6XmoWLs8nskXHLkoeKyCPHzP2RpbPeSFZGHvP0GOJewKMSM4CrzuR9xLN9A8/qpVoeUjZCODNq6aDd51KtXjalQ= Message-ID: <96A8BA20E7364AACA1D89D7861D9692E@gnat> From: "Alan Melia" To: References: <348B0BEC1F7B46E087035B672ECDF3C0@White> <1491176D540A4CD883E87E7DF687A604@White> Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2014 21:26:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Scan-Signature: a28b1b2438ad79e62076fe9eb1ceecab Subject: Re: LF: Re: ZEVS RX ant question, now success - 60 Hz in Europe Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008C_01CFE019.CB41E010" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 641 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01CFE019.CB41E010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Markus Ah I though I remembered seeing something ........I think the thread was = earlier this year .....Try 60Hz in the search field. They get misty-eyed = about Loran too :-)) Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Markus Vester=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 9:17 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: ZEVS RX ant question, now success - 60 Hz in = Europe Thanks Alan. Actually the time nuts do keep an online archive https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/ ... will look if I can find some hints there. 73, Markus PS Wish we could have such a nice archive for blacksheep as well ;-) From: Alan Melia=20 Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 10:07 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: Re: ZEVS RX ant question, now success - 60 Hz in Europe Hi Markus there has been a lot of discussion on the time-nuts group = time-nuts@febo.com on 60Hz frequeny accuracy across the US.. There are web sites which = publish plots of the variation. I am afraid I dont think there is an = archive attachedto the Group, though I believe it is possible to find = old messages. I do have a lot of these I will have a search though it = may take some time. Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Markus Vester=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 8:58 PM Subject: LF: ZEVS RX ant question, now success - 60 Hz in Europe Attempting to resend... From: Markus Vester=20 Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 1:18 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: ZEVS RX ant question, now success - 60 Hz in Europe Hi Wolf, Stefan, yes I also noticed a weak 60 Hz line during my ELF experiment, and = it is there in the accelerated wav files. Here are two spectrograms with = 15.3 mHz bin width: http://df6nm.bplaced.net/VLF/ELF/elf_140903_1855-2055_60Hz_82Hz.png http://df6nm.bplaced.net/VLF/ELF/elf_140904_0541-0741_60Hz_82Hz.png Unlike Zevs, 60 Hz seems to be more pronounced during 1855-2055 UT = recording, ie our evening when the Atlantic was still in daylight. It = was hardly visible in the morning, 0541-0741 UT. During the two evening hours, the 60 hz line drifted up and down by = about two pixels, 30 mHz. That frequency instability may actually be a = unique signature which can be used to exclude local origin, simply by = comparing simultaneous traces from two different receive sites. I think = there may even be an online log of American line frequency history, but = couldn't find it on the web - any hints from the group? Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) From: wolf_dl4yhf=20 Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 12:41 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: ZEVS RX ant question, now success Hi Stefan and all, you wrote: Yes, a good idea. I will try to catch it :-) But how do i know = that it is the US mains instead of a 60 Hz monitor? Is the 60 Hz from = the mains more stable? I guess the opposite: Similar to our Eu mains frequency, the US 60 = Hz signal "wanders around" very slowly, as the load changes, but in the = long run they also keep the frequency stable, nation-wide. Not sure = about the maximum excursion from the nominal frequency (I lost the notes = and screenshots years ago when a harddisk died) and how many mHz per = minute the frequency may drift. But you can see the weak 60 Hz trace in = Renato Romero's ZEVS spectrogram at http://www.vlf.it/zevs/zevs.htm 73, Wolf . ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01CFE019.CB41E010 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Markus
Ah I though I remembered seeing = something ........I=20 think the thread was earlier this year .....Try 60Hz in the search = field. They=20 get misty-eyed about Loran too :-))
 
Alan
G3NYK
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Markus=20 Vester
Sent: Saturday, October 04, = 2014 9:17=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: ZEVS RX = ant=20 question, now success - 60 Hz in Europe

Thanks Alan.
 
Actually the time nuts do keep an = online=20 archive
https://www.febo.com/p= ipermail/time-nuts/
... will look if I can find some = hints=20 there.
 
73, Markus
 
PS Wish we could have such a = nice archive=20 for blacksheep as well ;-)
 

From: Alan Melia
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 10:07 PM
Subject: LF: Re: ZEVS RX ant question, now success - 60 Hz = in=20 Europe

Hi Markus there has been a lot of = discussion on=20 the time-nuts group time-nuts@febo.com
 on 60Hz=20 frequeny accuracy across the US.. There are web sites which publish = plots of=20 the variation. I am afraid I dont think there is an archive attachedto = the=20 Group, though I believe it is possible to find old messages. I do have = a lot=20 of these I will have a search though it may take some = time.
 
Alan
G3NYK
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Markus=20 Vester
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Sent: Saturday, October 04, = 2014 8:58=20 PM
Subject: LF: ZEVS RX ant = question, now=20 success - 60 Hz in Europe

Attempting to = resend...
 
From: Markus Vester
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 1:18 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: ZEVS RX ant question, now success - 60 = Hz in=20 Europe

Hi Wolf, Stefan,
 
yes I also noticed a weak 60 Hz = line during my=20 ELF experiment, and it is there in the accelerated wav files. Here = are two=20 spectrograms with 15.3 mHz bin width:
http://df6nm.bplaced.net/VLF/ELF/elf_140903_1855-2055_60Hz_82Hz.png
http://df6nm.bplaced.net/VLF/ELF/elf_140904_0541-0741_60Hz_82Hz.png
 
Unlike Zevs, 60 Hz seems to be = more=20 pronounced during 1855-2055 UT recording, ie our evening when the = Atlantic=20 was still in daylight. It was hardly visible in the morning, = 0541-0741=20 UT.
 
During the two evening hours, the = 60 hz line=20 drifted up and down by about two pixels, 30 mHz. That frequency = instability may actually be a unique signature which can be used to = exclude=20 local origin, simply by comparing simultaneous traces from two=20 different receive sites. I think there may even be an=20 online log of American line frequency history, = but couldn't find=20 it on the web - any hints from the group?
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
 

From: wolf_dl4yhf
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 12:41 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: ZEVS RX ant question, now=20 success

Hi Stefan and all,

you = wrote:
 =20 Yes, a good idea. I will try to catch it :-) But how do i know that = it is=20 the US mains instead of a 60 Hz monitor? Is the 60 Hz from the mains = more=20 stable?
I guess the opposite: Similar to our Eu mains = frequency,=20 the US 60 Hz signal "wanders around" very slowly, as the load = changes, but=20 in the long run they also keep the frequency stable, nation-wide. = Not sure=20 about the maximum excursion from the nominal frequency (I lost the = notes and=20 screenshots years ago when a harddisk died) and how many mHz per = minute the=20 frequency may drift. But you can see the weak 60 Hz trace in Renato = Romero's=20 ZEVS spectrogram at

http://www.vlf.it/zevs/zevs.htm<= /A>

73,
 =20 Wolf .

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