Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1233; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=unavailable version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id s94KKkYd001263 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 2014 22:20:46 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1XaVlg-00059g-E2 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 04 Oct 2014 21:17:28 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1XaVlg-00059X-1l for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 04 Oct 2014 21:17:28 +0100 Received: from omr-m09.mx.aol.com ([64.12.143.82]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1XaVlc-0007h0-Si for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 04 Oct 2014 21:17:26 +0100 Received: from mtaout-aam01.mx.aol.com (mtaout-aam01.mx.aol.com [172.27.19.145]) by omr-m09.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id BB47170000087 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 2014 16:17:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from White (unknown [95.91.239.181]) by mtaout-aam01.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPA id C02CF38000082 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 2014 16:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1491176D540A4CD883E87E7DF687A604@White> From: "Markus Vester" To: References: <348B0BEC1F7B46E087035B672ECDF3C0@White> Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2014 22:17:23 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 12.0.1606 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V12.0.1606 x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20140625; t=1412453842; bh=BSuUIZRc8a8Co8wBNmC+WeE9Cl3RpbKpa050LrxRMNk=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=haBBYrGtC0Ax3DuEO0V1jqMMbUxK/zWdm4N7xCsPnua8jS43BnZhircNnG1fTFgza ST9OI+WKM2NCu4cbTY8wLfosfEO5Lx+kAtOeP1hnzm6mnEKEjidwIquzkiNOJevVm+ 9VKWdp+rbVDVjX50GiyRK2gQfnZ38wVnglI/s84M= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1b1391543055d166a9 X-AOL-IP: 95.91.239.181 X-Scan-Signature: 719233b489c0727505743c30ad56ff81 Subject: Re: LF: Re: ZEVS RX ant question, now success - 60 Hz in Europe Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005C_01CFE020.F925E7E0" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 639 Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format. ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01CFE020.F925E7E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Alan. Actually the time nuts do keep an online archive https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/ ... will look if I can find some hints there. 73, Markus PS Wish we could have such a nice archive for blacksheep as well ;-) From: Alan Melia=20 Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 10:07 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: Re: ZEVS RX ant question, now success - 60 Hz in Europe Hi Markus there has been a lot of discussion on the time-nuts group = time-nuts@febo.com on 60Hz frequeny accuracy across the US.. There are web sites which = publish plots of the variation. I am afraid I dont think there is an = archive attachedto the Group, though I believe it is possible to find = old messages. I do have a lot of these I will have a search though it = may take some time. Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Markus Vester=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 8:58 PM Subject: LF: ZEVS RX ant question, now success - 60 Hz in Europe Attempting to resend... From: Markus Vester=20 Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 1:18 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: ZEVS RX ant question, now success - 60 Hz in Europe Hi Wolf, Stefan, yes I also noticed a weak 60 Hz line during my ELF experiment, and it = is there in the accelerated wav files. Here are two spectrograms with = 15.3 mHz bin width: http://df6nm.bplaced.net/VLF/ELF/elf_140903_1855-2055_60Hz_82Hz.png http://df6nm.bplaced.net/VLF/ELF/elf_140904_0541-0741_60Hz_82Hz.png Unlike Zevs, 60 Hz seems to be more pronounced during 1855-2055 UT = recording, ie our evening when the Atlantic was still in daylight. It = was hardly visible in the morning, 0541-0741 UT. During the two evening hours, the 60 hz line drifted up and down by = about two pixels, 30 mHz. That frequency instability may actually be a = unique signature which can be used to exclude local origin, simply by = comparing simultaneous traces from two different receive sites. I think = there may even be an online log of American line frequency history, but = couldn't find it on the web - any hints from the group? Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) From: wolf_dl4yhf=20 Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 12:41 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: ZEVS RX ant question, now success Hi Stefan and all, you wrote: Yes, a good idea. I will try to catch it :-) But how do i know that = it is the US mains instead of a 60 Hz monitor? Is the 60 Hz from the = mains more stable? I guess the opposite: Similar to our Eu mains frequency, the US 60 Hz = signal "wanders around" very slowly, as the load changes, but in the = long run they also keep the frequency stable, nation-wide. Not sure = about the maximum excursion from the nominal frequency (I lost the notes = and screenshots years ago when a harddisk died) and how many mHz per = minute the frequency may drift. But you can see the weak 60 Hz trace in = Renato Romero's ZEVS spectrogram at http://www.vlf.it/zevs/zevs.htm 73, Wolf . ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01CFE020.F925E7E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Alan.
 
Actually the time nuts do keep an = online=20 archive
https://www.febo.com/p= ipermail/time-nuts/
... will look if I can find some hints=20 there.
 
73, Markus
 
PS Wish we could have such a = nice archive for=20 blacksheep as well ;-)
 

From: Alan Melia
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 10:07 PM
Subject: LF: Re: ZEVS RX ant question, now success - 60 Hz = in=20 Europe

Hi Markus there has been a lot of = discussion on the=20 time-nuts group time-nuts@febo.com
 on 60Hz=20 frequeny accuracy across the US.. There are web sites which publish = plots of the=20 variation. I am afraid I dont think there is an archive attachedto the = Group,=20 though I believe it is possible to find old messages. I do have a lot of = these I=20 will have a search though it may take some time.
 
Alan
G3NYK
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Markus=20 Vester
Sent: Saturday, October 04, = 2014 8:58=20 PM
Subject: LF: ZEVS RX ant = question, now=20 success - 60 Hz in Europe

Attempting to resend...
 
From: Markus Vester
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 1:18 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: ZEVS RX ant question, now success - 60 Hz = in=20 Europe

Hi Wolf, Stefan,
 
yes I also noticed a weak 60 Hz line = during my=20 ELF experiment, and it is there in the accelerated wav files. Here are = two=20 spectrograms with 15.3 mHz bin width:
http://df6nm.bplaced.net/VLF/ELF/elf_140903_1855-2055_60Hz_82Hz.png
http://df6nm.bplaced.net/VLF/ELF/elf_140904_0541-0741_60Hz_82Hz.png
 
Unlike Zevs, 60 Hz seems to be = more=20 pronounced during 1855-2055 UT recording, ie our evening when the = Atlantic was=20 still in daylight. It was hardly visible in the morning, 0541-0741=20 UT.
 
During the two evening hours, the 60 = hz line=20 drifted up and down by about two pixels, 30 mHz. That frequency=20 instability may actually be a unique signature which can be used to = exclude=20 local origin, simply by comparing simultaneous traces from two = different=20 receive sites. I think there may even be an online log = of=20 American line frequency history, but couldn't find it on the web=20 - any hints from the group?
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
 

From: wolf_dl4yhf
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2014 12:41 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: ZEVS RX ant question, now=20 success

Hi Stefan and all,

you = wrote:
  Yes,=20 a good idea. I will try to catch it :-) But how do i know that it is = the US=20 mains instead of a 60 Hz monitor? Is the 60 Hz from the mains more=20 stable?
I guess the opposite: Similar to our Eu mains = frequency, the=20 US 60 Hz signal "wanders around" very slowly, as the load changes, but = in the=20 long run they also keep the frequency stable, nation-wide. Not sure = about the=20 maximum excursion from the nominal frequency (I lost the notes and = screenshots=20 years ago when a harddisk died) and how many mHz per minute the = frequency may=20 drift. But you can see the weak 60 Hz trace in Renato Romero's ZEVS=20 spectrogram at

http://www.vlf.it/zevs/zevs.htm<= /A>

73,
 =20 Wolf .

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