Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1233; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=unavailable version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id s8KFOEaa011324 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 17:24:14 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1XVMPS-0005Py-1D for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 16:17:14 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1XVMPR-0005Pp-3j for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 16:17:13 +0100 Received: from smtpdg227.aruba.it ([62.149.158.227] helo=smtpdg8.aruba.it) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1XVMPO-00073f-Gf for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 16:17:12 +0100 Received: from mauro.stmb.it ([79.16.192.243]) by smtpcmd03.ad.aruba.it with bizsmtp id tTH71o0075FYeVb01TH7gs; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 17:17:09 +0200 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 17:17:02 +0200 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org, rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: IK1WVQ Mauro In-Reply-To: References: <6830353EE87C4976A52C3E8B21B3E35B@White> <3E929CBB414342E58A4D58FCC0733312@White> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-HELO-Warning: Remote host 62.149.158.227 (smtpdg227.aruba.it) used invalid HELO/EHLO smtpdg8.aruba.it - verification failed X-Scan-Signature: aaa907f1cfed2776dbc1341844857d57 Message-Id: Subject: Re: LF: DX with 472 kHz, earth electrode antenna, 25 Watts output :-) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_207912125==.ALT" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 465 --=====================_207912125==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hi Piotrek, thanks for your infos. only one question again: I can try this in a field in the countryside ..=20 this field is large (about 100 meters square) but=20 no builds, then no ground bands in ground. I can plant in the soil 2 to 4 rods (aligned=20 along a side of the field) .. no problems for=20 distance: up to 100 meters is ok .. according to you experience, can this setup to be ok ??? (for example: 2 or 3 rods near the TX (the=20 "ground") and the fourth rod placed 20 to 100 meters away (the "antenna")= ... thanks , 73 de Mauro IK1WVQ At 10.59 20/09/2014, Piotr Herko wrote: >Hi, >Tnx Marcus for methodology for EIRP level estimation. I try calculate! >Mauro, >=C2 Earthing =C2 connected to shack is from band=20 >around my home. Band in about 1,5 meters deep in=20 >ground. It is connected to all my equipment.=20 >This band is first for safety on home.=C2 >Electrode is about 20 meters far from nearest=20 >point of 'normal' earthing point. Second=20 >electrode is simply 2 meters vertical =C2 rod=20 >pounded in soil. This electrode is directly=20 >connected to tx output with 2,2 nF capacitor in=20 >serial. For connection I use isolated wire.=20 >Capacitance was selected to get lowest SWR. I=20 >was using for it home made NWT-7, DK3WX project,=20 >simple network analyser. It is simple observe on=20 >analyser where is minimum SWR, then change=20 >capacitor to get low SWR. But it is no problem =C2=20 >use SWR meter for it only. Output from tx is 50=20 >ohm 5th order filter. =C2 Isolated wire lay simply=20 >on ground. I dont see any significiant changes=20 >between wire on ground and hanging on fence. SWR=20 >is 1.1 to 1.4 according to weather. >I dont =C2 know exatly =C2 what soil is in my garden! =C2 I think it is= sandy clay. > >Piotrek, sp5xsb > > > >On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 10:00 AM, Markus Vester=20 ><markusvester@aol.com> wrote: >PS: Forgot to mention that you=C2 may also need to=20 >consider=C2 directivity:=C2 The broadcast station=20 >used for the measurement should preferably be=C2=20 >close to=C2 one of the main lobes (ie NE or SW).=20 >If there=C2 is significant deviation,=C2 you could=20 >either correct the measurement using the cosine=20 >of the=C2 azimuth difference, or simply orient the=20 >reference loop the same way as your ground antenna. >=C2 >73, Markus=C2 =C2 > >From: Markus Vester >Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2014 9:25 AM >To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >Subject: Re: LF: DX with 472 kHz, earth electrode antenna, 25 Watts output= :-) > >Hi Piotr, >=C2 >congratulations on those=C2 results from your ground dipole! >=C2 >In my opinion, it is somewhat difficult to=20 >estimate ERP directly from WSPR SNR figures,=20 >because the variations in skywave sttenuation=20 >and receiver noise floor are difficult to=20 >predict. I would probably go about it=C2 by using=20 >a receiver to measure the effective loop area=20 >Aeff of the ground dipole. This can be done=C2=20 >with some broadcast station in the lower medium=20 >wave band, comparing receive level with that=C2=20 >from a simple nonresonant loop with eg. 1 square=20 >meter.=C2 Only the voltage ratio (dB difference)=20 >is required so you don't=C2 need an absolutely calibrated receiver. Thus >=C2 >=C2 Aeff =3D voltage on ground antenna / voltage on reference loop * 1 m^2 >=C2 >If the frequency of the used broadcast station=20 >was significantly higher than your transmit=20 >frequency, you can make a correction for the increased skin depth: >=C2 >=C2 Aeff' =3D Aeff * sqrt (f_broadcast / f_amateur) >=C2 >Then, during your transmissions you'll only need=20 >to measure the=C2 current to your ground antenna, and calculate ERP as >=C2 >=C2 ERP =3D 1.83 * 62342 ohms * Aeff'^2 / lambda^4 * current^2 >=C2 >Best 73, >Markus (DF6NM) >=C2 > >From: Piotr Herko >Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2014 8:32 AM >To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >Subject: LF: DX with 472 kHz, earth electrode antenna, 25 Watts output :-) > > > >Hi, > >I reached OH8HTG WSPR, =C2 1414, =C2 km with my=20 >earth electrode antenna! TX is M1GEO project,=20 >DDS RN3AUS, electrodes are 20 meters apart.=20 >Antenna is directly connected to 50 ohm tx=20 >filter with serial 2,2 nF capacitor. SWR is=20 >about 1,1 to 1.4 according to weather. Direction of the antenna is NE, 50= deg. > >So far my WSPR was received in DL, OK, OE corner=20 >by DH5RAE,=C2 =C2 DJ0ABR and=C2 =C2 DC1RJJ, about 650 km=20 >far. Also closer by SP2OVY and SQ5KLN. > > >Who can help me estimate EIRP power? I declare now in WSPR beacon 5 mW. > > > >2014-09-20 02:14=C2 =C2 SP5XSB=C2 =C2 0.475636=C2 =C2=20 >-30=C2 =C2 0=C2 =C2 KO02ld=C2 =C2 0.005=C2 =C2 OH8HTG=C2 =C2 KP34=C2 = =C2 1414=C2 =C2 12=C2 >=C2 2014-09-20 02:12=C2 =C2 DK7FC=C2 =C2 0.475684=C2 =C2=20 >-9=C2 =C2 0=C2 =C2 JN49ik=C2 =C2 1=C2 =C2 SP5XSB=C2 =C2 KO02ld=C2 =C2= 911=C2 =C2 66=C2 >=C2 2014-09-20 02:06=C2 =C2 SP5XSB=C2 =C2 0.475636=C2 =C2=20 >-33=C2 =C2 0=C2 =C2 KO02ld=C2 =C2 0.005=C2 =C2 OH8HTG=C2 =C2 KP34=C2 = =C2 1414=C2 =C2 12=C2 > > >Piotrek, sp5xsb > > --=====================_207912125==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
hi Piotrek,
thanks for your infos.

only one question again:
I can try this in a field in the countryside .. this field is large (about 100 meters square) but no builds, then no ground bands in ground.
I can plant in the soil 2 to 4 rods (aligned along a side of the field) .. no problems for distance: up to 100 meters is ok ..
according to you experience, can this setup to be ok ???
(for example: 2 or 3 rods near the TX (the "ground") and the fourth rod placed 20 to 100 meters away (the "antenna") ...

thanks , 73 de Mauro IK1WVQ



At 10.59 20/09/2014, Piotr Herko wrote:

Hi,
Tnx Marcus for methodology for EIRP level estimation. I try calculate!
Mauro,
=C2 Earthing =C2 connected to shack is from band around my home. Band in about 1,5 meters deep in ground. It is connected to all my equipment. This band is first for safety on home.=C2
Electrode is about 20 meters far from nearest point of 'normal' earthing point. Second electrode is simply 2 meters vertical =C2 rod pounded in soil. This electrode is directly connected to tx output with 2,2 nF capacitor in serial. For connection I use isolated wire. Capacitance was selected to get lowest SWR. I was using for it home made NWT-7, DK3WX project, simple network analyser. It is simple observe on analyser where is minimum SWR, then change capacitor to get low SWR. But it is no problem =C2 use SWR meter for it only. Output from tx is 50 ohm 5th order filter. =C2 Isolated wire lay simply on ground. I dont see any significiant changes between wire on ground and hanging on fence. SWR is 1.1 to 1.4 according to weather.
I dont =C2 know exatly =C2 what soil is in my garden! =C2 I think it is sand= y clay.

Piotrek, sp5xsb



On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 10:00 AM, Markus Vester <markusvester@aol.com> wrote:
PS: Forgot to mention that you=C2 may also need to consider=C2 directivity:=C2 The broadcast station used for the measurement should preferably be=C2 close to=C2 one of the main lobes (ie NE or SW). If there=C2 is significant deviation,=C2 you could either correct th= e measurement using the cosine of the=C2 azimuth difference, or simply orient the reference loop the same way as your ground antenna.
=C2
73, Markus=C2 =C2

From: Markus Vester
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2014 9:25 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: DX with 472 kHz, earth electrode antenna, 25 Watts output :-)

Hi Piotr,
=C2
congratulations on those=C2 results from your ground dipole!
=C2
In my opinion, it is somewhat difficult to estimate ERP directly from WSPR SNR figures, because the variations in skywave sttenuation and receiver noise floor are difficult to predict. I would probably go about it=C2 by using a receiver to measure the effective loop area Aeff of the ground dipole. This can be done=C2 with some broadcast station in the lower medium wave band, comparing receive level with that=C2 from a simple nonresonant loop with eg. 1 square meter.=C2 Only the voltage ratio (dB difference) is required so you don't=C2 need an absolutely calibrated receiver. Thus
=C2
=C2 Aeff =3D voltage on ground antenna / voltage on reference loop * 1 m^2
=C2
If the frequency of the used broadcast station was significantly higher than your transmit frequency, you can make a correction for the increased skin depth:
=C2
=C2 Aeff' =3D Aeff * sqrt (f_broadcast / f_amateur)
=C2
Then, during your transmissions you'll only need to measure the=C2 current to your ground antenna, and calculate ERP as
=C2
=C2 ERP =3D 1.83 * 62342 ohms * Aeff'^2 = / lambda^4 * current^2
=C2
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
=C2

From: Piotr Herko
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2014 8:32 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: DX with 472 kHz, earth electrode antenna, 25 Watts output :-)



Hi,

I reached OH8HTG WSPR, =C2 1414, =C2 km with my earth electrode antenna! TX is M1GEO project, DDS RN3AUS, electrodes are 20 meters apart. Antenna is directly connected to 50 ohm tx filter with serial 2,2 nF capacitor. SWR is about 1,1 to 1.4 according to weather. Direction of the antenna is NE, 50 deg.

So far my WSPR was received in DL, OK, OE corner by DH5RAE,=C2 =C2 DJ0AB= R and=C2 =C2 DC1RJJ, about 650 km far. Also closer by SP2OVY and SQ5KLN.


Who can help me estimate EIRP power? I declare now in WSPR beacon 5 mW.



2014-09-20 02:14=C2  =C2 SP5XSB=C2  =C2 0.475636=C2  =C2 -30=C2  =C2 0=C2  =C2 KO02ld=C2  =C2 0.005=C2  =C2= OH8HTG=C2  =C2 KP34=C2  =C2 1414=C2  =C2 12=C2
=C2 2014-09-20 02:12=C2  =C2 DK7FC=C2  =C2 0.475684=C2  = =C2 -9=C2  =C2 0=C2  =C2 JN49ik=C2  =C2 1=C2  =C2= SP5XSB=C2  =C2 KO02ld=C2  =C2 911=C2  =C2 66=C2
=C2 2014-09-20 02:06=C2  =C2 SP5XSB=C2  =C2 0.475636=C2  = =C2 -33=C2  =C2 0=C2  =C2 KO02ld=C2  =C2 0.005=C2  =C2= OH8HTG=C2  =C2 KP34=C2  =C2 1414=C2  =C2 12=C2


Piotrek, sp5xsb


--=====================_207912125==.ALT--